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Wisconsin passes the common sense bill.

Posted 15 months ago|32 comments|541 views
Written by
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
Thank goodness this finally passed. Unions are killing America, and its great to see states like Wisconsin finally take a stand. My favorite part is all the Union crybabies wearing their "Fighting for working families" shirts...what they should have said was "Fighting to continue being over paid and destroying competition"

Thank you Wisconsin...hopefully Indiana follows suit and maybe (not likely) Illinois will too.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110225/ap_o...
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COMMENTS
sunny2
sunny2
15 months ago: Well, I guess you should expect then our children won't be properly educated, but I believe you wouldn't know about that sort of thing. Right?
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
15 months ago: Sunny2
Why do you say that? Do you think unions are necessary for properly educating our children?
15 months ago: Uh, not to get off topic, and not to take down or defend perfect horizon, but his deleted post from a week ago said, in part:
"This is my last post on this site. It has become an absolute joke, considering that now several moderators and the administrator have taken the time to post that this site is supposed to be for debate...actual debate and yet none have done anything about the completely idiocy that takes place here by a select few."

So welcome back. Unfortunately I wish it were under different circumstances, as this rant is too short and too partisan to be able to be debated, as you pine for in your comment above. The R&R guidelines suggest posts be a bit more subtantive than this sort of thing, and with good reason: what is there of any real substance, beyond the news aspect of your content, which is readily found everywhere.

I gotta go, company is here, I'll be back.
15 months ago: He is a manager in a union shop. You expect another opinion? While I support the effort I have to question the motive.
sunny2
sunny2
15 months ago: I would think his opinion would count for something. Everyone has something to say. I question the motives of the Government, Cypress.
15 months ago: Did you mean the Republican Government?
sunny2
sunny2
15 months ago: At this point, I don't see any difference.
15 months ago: Unions are what built this country and made it strong. Greed driven corporations and the greed driven politicians they pay to get elected are what is bringing down the country. Since 1980 our politicians have slowly chipped away at our foundation and we crumbled to the ground.

The teachers in Wisconsin might as well go on Strike and then Walker can fire them the same way Reagan fired the air traffic controllers when they went on strike. Then let's see who they get to teach their kids.

So why stop there? Let's take away ALL the Unions. Let's be just like China and pay our people $5 a day to make the cheap crap that we import. We'll get all our jobs back in no time. Now you're talking!
sunny2
sunny2
15 months ago: I have to agree with Cully. People were in sweat shops and being abused in work places before the Unions were formed. If not for that alone, we do need Union. The wages will be out of controll. Employers beating workers up and paying them nothing. I'm not saying Unions are innocent because they are not but that is what we have to keep us from sinking. Until there is a better way, at least there is some protection at this point. I think the Wisconsin Government by being so harsh and ignoring the people is making a statement in itself that they don't care about the people at all. They have a right to fight.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
15 months ago: Unions didn't build the country. They helped the workers of the country. Free enterprise is actually what built the country.

But in the case of the public workers union, now taxpayer funded employees are making considerably more than the private sector. Is that a bad thing? I think so.
15 months ago: The percentage of Bachelor degrees and Masters is quite a bit higher in the public sector than the private sector, and there is therefore commensurate higher pay: but, when you compare the same level of education and fields (geotech, for example), the private sector makes a bit more than the public sector.
15 months ago: Free Enterprise? Maybe, but it was Unions that protected labor rights of the workers from unscrupulous corporations and built the middle class, or perhaps we should go back to child labor and 12 hour work days. Unions have been on the decline for years as older workers retire and fewer newer workers join. The issue in Wisconsin is Collective Bargaining. Without that a Union would not exist. Who would join a Union if the Union could not negotiate a fair contract for them?

Let the teachers get fired in Wisconsin, then Indiana and then Illinois and see it all backfire on the Republicans in 2012. The 2% richest Americans cannot carry the vote but the 98% that got screwed over by that 2% can.
sunny2
sunny2
15 months ago: Why is it bad? The public officials such as our Senators, Congressman, and Representatives don't deserve getting paid the money they are getting. We vote them in to spit on us most of the time and getting paid to do so. I rather see the money go to people who will educate children, etc. But, you still have a point and I see it.
sunny2
sunny2
15 months ago: I worked in a non Union company private sector and the supervisors who were pretty bad were earning 100k a year. They were the worse do nothings and stood around all day drinking coffee and playing with people's lives.
justlogic
justlogic
15 months ago: I don't think unions hurt America, unions are the scapegoat. Cully would you agree that 98% of Americans are angry.
15 months ago: No the Unions didn't and yes a lot of Americans are angry and my reply turned into a Rant

http://www.rantrave.com/Rant/American-Ar...
sunny2
sunny2
15 months ago: I agree with you, Cully.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
15 months ago: So you don't think that, while the unions did a play a role in improving the lots of workers, they haven't harmed them in the long run? An auto worker making $45.00 for the rest of his life, whether he works or not, isn't taking it too far? And a union who refuses to allow a wage adjustment, while imports are taking place of the American made cars that used to be sold in the US?
An electrician making $50.00 per hour, and being told he can't turn a wrench, because there is a specialist to do that? Or a pipe welder who has to stand and wait for a fitter to come and turn his pipe over so he can finish welding it?

If this is helping, I don't want it.
sunny2
sunny2
15 months ago: But they are working. I agree nothing is perfect. Some things are better to have and just tweak a little.
15 months ago: Yes, in some ways Unions did some harm and there should have been some more common sense used, but they are not what caused the problem in Wisconsin. In recent years Unions have made more concessions to change with the times and they would make concessions in Wisconsin too if they had collective bargaining.

Without collective bargaining the Union has nothing and would go under. Once one Union goes under then so do most of the rest of them. That's what the fight in Wisconsin is about.

If they break the teachers, who do the break next? Police, Fire, Transport Workers, Auto Workers, Plumbers, Electricians, Pilots who's next?
BadCyborg
BadCyborg
San Antonio, TX
15 months ago: I think unions were useful - once upon a time. That time is long past. Now it is only about power.

And as for public employees unions - even FDR thought THEY were a bid idea. Now if a flat-out socialist like FDR considered public employee unions to be a bid idea, what does that tell you?

And besides, Gov Walker is not trying to bust the unions. He doesn't even want to make them pay as much as people in the private sector do for retirement and health insurance. He just wants them to pay SOMETHING. Why is that bad? Walker's plan would STILL let the public employees contribute less than HALF what a private sector employee has to contribute. Is that in any way fair or just?

C'mon, Cully, explain to us how public employees contributing less than ONE HALF as much towards their own retirement and their healthcare cost is unfair to the public employees. Please enlighten us, good sir.
sunny2
sunny2
15 months ago: They pay into it with Membership dues Cyborg. If people choose to do that it is their choice. I would hate to see this Country go back to the violence and discontent and more poverty before Unions. It will be chaos.
15 months ago: As I understand it the Union in Wisconsin gave in to the cuts. That was not the issue.
The Unions no longer have the clout they once had, there is almost no power left to them. As far as the insurance I have not seen what the rates are that public people pay vs. private people in Wisconsin. Half of what is what? Is what I want to know.

So people have been protesting for weeks about having to pay half as much for insurance as the private sector. Is that what this fight is about?
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
15 months ago: Pretty much it boiled down to the money, in my opinion. The public employee union lost its collective bargaining power, too, which means it can no longer hold the state hostage by denying essential services to those they are beholden to: the taxpayers.
sunny2
sunny2
15 months ago: Box, From what the State Government does to people, I have no sympathy for them, and I can't side against the voices of the people. I have had experiences with Unions through the years when my father was a developer. I know first hand very well what goes on. On the flip side, teachers are pretty much low paid already. Where do people come up with 80K - 90K. I know they do get a lot of benefits, also. They won't stand a chance if they don't have some kind of bargaining power behind them. We lose our teachers from low pay, not too many will go into that field. You will have crowded classes, lack of quality in the teaching. Our system will become ineffective. Well, that's how I feel anyway from what I've seen. I do understand your thinking also. There has to be a simple solution besides taking away the collective bargaining.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
15 months ago: The average teacher's salary in Wisconsin is $46,390.00. The average fringe benefit package is worth $28,000.00. That makes around $74,000.

The average ratio of students per teacher is 14.7/1
The average Milwaukee public-school teacher salary is $56,500, but with benefits the total package is $100,005, according to the manager of financial planning for Milwaukee public schools.
sunny2
sunny2
15 months ago: That's not bad. I wouldn't scoff at people for that. Policeman get a nice niffty salary and a lot of benefits, also. The private sector's benefits are very, very high along with steady increases that you don't have to fight for and no Union. I've paid into it somewhat but left the job with a huge benefit package. Don't forget Public Utilities get paid a whopping sum of money. It isn't only teachers.
15 months ago: PH,

Short, partisan or not... looks like a great Rave for discussion!

I have worked in Union jobs and not...
and in my experience, Unions have BECOME the resting place for those who desire their own position, prestige and power...
...instead of purpose, production, and prosperity of everyone involved...
...kinda like the government.
sunny2
sunny2
15 months ago: I totally get that point and understand it fully. Still, no one will be on the side of the people without them. Something is better than nothing.

If no one fights for the people at all, we will only have the Government to slash wages and kick people around. We will only have Government to rely on and look what they are doing to the ordinary person. They will find another way to take away everything from the working guy.
Altruist
Altruist
Eugene, OR
15 months ago: This entire attack on the unions is based entirely on lies.

First of all it has nothing to do with balancing the budget. There was actually a $20 million budget in Wisconsin until the governor gave away $150 million in tax breaks to his corporate sponsors. It was these tax breaks that broke the budget not the hard working teachers and other union workers.

Likewise nationally it is obscene that the Republicans can claim to be concerned with the deficit when they throw money at the rich. They are eliminating all of the programs that help the poor and are literally taking food from the mouths of babies (WIC), but that money dosen't even come close to paying for the tax cuts to the rich they insisted on just a couple of months ago. They concentrate all of their budget cuts on the 12% of the discretionary budget, but refuse to cut the most egregious waste in the military or to cut the hundreds of billions in corporate welfare to corporations that are making record profits.

Second; all of the unions realize that times are tough and have made concessions to save money. They have already agreed to most of Walker's demands to pay more for insurance and pensions, but draw the line at loosing their constitutional rights to organize.

Third; union members do not get paid that much more than non union workers. While it is true that union unskilled workers do make a living wage compared to the starvation wages of the private sector, public sector union workers are much higher educated than the private sector workers. Those with a degree (60% of public sector union members) make 20% less than private sector workers with the same education and that includes all of the benefits.
http://politicalcorrection.org/factcheck...

The conservatives and the Tea Party were crying bloody murder because they thought government was taking away their nebulous imaginare freedom and rights, but now that they are in control, Their version of Big Government is actually taking away real rights and harming actual people.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
15 months ago: "....$150 million in tax breaks. It was these tax breaks that broke the budget not the hard working teachers and other union workers."

How does $150 million in tax breaks cause a $3.6 billion deficit in two years? This talking point, trafficked in by hate mongers on hate television like Rachel Maddow, just won't fly.

"...union members do not get paid that much more than non union workers..."

Federal public union members make double what their private counterparts make.
State and local public sector members make an average of 15% more than private counterparts.

http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/in...


"....union members do not get paid that much more than non union workers..."

All I see on this is one socialist group using another socialist group's (Economic Policy Institute) figures. Where did they get these figures, and why are they not backed up by anyone else's data?
sunny2
sunny2
15 months ago: You know this Bill in Wisconsin is not Law yet. I wouldn't bet on it entirely. I don't think it will be so easily passed. Just like the difficult time they gave the Democrats in passing some very important Legislation that never made it they will have a hard time.

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