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Where is the soul?

Posted 41 months ago|61 comments|1,481 views
Written by
Altruist
Eugene, OR
Wherein resides the soul? Ancient peoples thought that a person's strength resided in their heart, so they would eat the heart of their fiercest enemies to gain their strength. In modern times we value a person's thoughts, beliefs, and memory more, so does the essence of that person, the soul if you will, reside in the brain?
Or is it in the DNA of the individual cells? If you can take a single skin cell, convert it to a T cell and clone any organ in the body from it, Is the soul spread out throughout the body?

There used to be experiments where they weighed a person just before they died and then after they died to see if the soul had any weight or mass. Is the soul simply energy? In some films when a person dies they show an entity made of light that sometimes looks like an angel escape from the body at the moment of death.
When does a person really die? Today we can keep people alive indefinitely with various machines. Is that person really alive or does the soul escape when the EKG flatlines, or does the soul still reside in the shell of a body?

When a person's soul ascends to heaven, does that person look like they did in their prime or do they look like the old sick and decrepit wrecks the soul inhabited when it left? If a person looses limbs, will they be whole again in Heaven? If a baby is born without a brain does that baby gain one in heaven?

The picture is of Dr. Manhattan from the film and comic book series, "The Watchmen" Dr. Manhattan has his individual cells scattered when a lab accident vaporizes him. Yet his essence is able to reorganize. His personality and thoughts survive but with an energy body that is still able to interact with the physical world. He becomes infinitely powerful and immortal.

In 1951 Henrietta Lacks did something similar she gave some of her cells to science and they multiplied and they continue to multiply even today. Today her cells are spread all over the world and that cell line is essentially immortal. Popular Science in the latest issue said that her cells in labs all over the world would collectively outweigh 100 Empire State Buildings and they could circle the earth three times over if placed end to end.

Does a little bit of Henrietta still reside in each of these cells? Can her consciousness and memories coalesce and gain substance again like Dr. Manhattan, if we bring enough of these cells together again? Is a portion of her soul still intact in these petri dishes scattered all over the world?

If her soul is still here on earth who is it wearing those big chicken wings in the sky?


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COMMENTS
41 months ago: Don't worry. You'll find the answer while on your death bed.
41 months ago: there's a really good book out there called "Embraced by the Light." it answered a lot of my questions... it's about a near-death experience. good book!
41 months ago: Al,

This is deep. It's nice to know that you really think about these things and don't just write them off as irrational. And it sounds like that even if you do, you still consider the possibility that they are not.

I've always respected your opinions (even the wacky ones). But that respect has moved to another level.

I don't like the term "devil's advocate" but are you playing it?

Are SOME of thos questions sincere, or am I just being optimistic and naive?
41 months ago: Don't worry Huey. The rant is titled "where is the soul?".
Not "where is your soul?" or "where is my soul?".

Some people will be destined to be worm food no matter how much you try. It's good that you try to make them less than worm food. You should be commended on your attempt.

However, they will always be worm food. Don't loose sleep over that fact.
33 months ago: We are all destined to be worm food, unless you've figured out how to keep your body alive and functioning normally for all eternity....
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
41 months ago: Ok, I'll bite. Let's get this thing rolling.


Ecclesiastes 3:19-20

18 I also thought, "As for men, God tests them so that they may see that they are like the animals. 19 Man's fate is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath ; man has no advantage over the animal. Everything is meaningless. 20 All go to the same place; all come from dust, and to dust all return. 21 Who knows if the spirit of man rises upward and if the spirit of the animal [c] goes down into the earth?"

22 So I saw that there is nothing better for a man than to enjoy his work, because that is his lot. For who can bring him to see what will happen after him?
41 months ago: out of the box: wow, thank you for ripping my faith to shreds :( i shall sleep fretfully tonight... i do not like it when i come across these things in the bible. now i've got to go get myself reading someplace in the new testament this instant. arrrgh... so depressed... please do not destroy my faith in the peaceful afterlife :)
41 months ago: unless it's just saying that we really can't know or predict where our spirit or the spirit of the dog next to us is going to go. i may have been misunderstanding it...
41 months ago: so it's just better for us to live day-to-day and enjoy our work... because we can all do that. and we can't really predict. hmm....
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
41 months ago: toniface

I like your interpretation.
Altruist
Altruist
Eugene, OR
41 months ago: Huey I've done my share of philosophical and theocratic thoughts in my 11 years of catholic school.
OOTB good bible work there. "Who knows if the spirit of man rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?"
As we study the cetaceans and the great apes more, I marvel at their intelligence and I consider that the different standards that we choose to prove that we are superior to animals continues to disappear. It used to be tool use, then language. great apes can use both. If a great ape has the intelligence, feelings, etc. of a 6yr. old human, and the human child has a soul, does the apes?
I agree with Toni if you live a good life doesn't really matter where we go when we die. I might be pleasantly surprised. Some religions believe you are reincarnated 19 times and alternate between male and female.
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
41 months ago: Altruist,

When it comes to understanding the potential afterlife, there's five types of people:

1. Those who don't care and don't know.

2. Those who wonder but don't know.

3. Those who think they might know but don't know.

4. Those who are pretty sure they know but don't know.

5. Those who are absolutely sure but don't know.

The common denominatior of course is 'don't know', and regardless of how much of a god complex one might have to say they know, or how much psuedo-science ghost hunting quakcery one might employ to get the answer, the right answer is always don't know.

That said, unless you're a sucker that's shoveling hard earned cash to a religious guru's who knows just as little about the afterlife as you do, imagining an afterlife and what it might be like is the one luxury in life you don't have to pay for. And there's no right and wrong since is the answer is still don't know.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
41 months ago: Markbyrn

Another luxury in my life that is free is Salvation. Yes, it's true. You can't buy your way into heaven.

My personal belief is that people have a spirit and a body, but the soul is something that is given later. Your spirit is who you are while you are alive, all your thoughts and emotions, and not at all eternal. That is why the dead in Christ are referred to as "sleeping".

We don't go to Heaven or the lake of fire when we die, we go into the ground (or whatever), awaiting judgment. Then, at the end of this world as we know it, we are given our eternal souls, where our temporary spirit is transformed.
41 months ago: "Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit, soul and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."
(1 Thessalonians 5:23)

Spirit - our essence. The part of us created in the image of God.

Soul - Our mind, will and emotions.

Body - the house we live in.

"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." (John 10:28-29).

Our hope.
33 months ago: Mind - Will - and Emotions (to me), seems more related to the Ego. In fact, I'm thinking that maybe... the Spirit and the Ego are two-sides of the same coin.

For example: If someone says that their "spirit has been broken" - it may mean that their feelings have been hurt, and that is related to the "Soul" (being: "Our minds, will and emotions") - which is related to the Ego.

What I'd like to know is this: Is there not a fine description-line between the Spirit and the Soul? And... what is it, exactly? Also, how does the Ego fit-in to all of it... and most importantly - What kind of reference has been made about the Ego... in the Bible? (Or - something that resembles the term... being that the word was not established, until later...)
33 months ago: Hi Lean 123 -

I think you've got it.

Outside of the Thessalonian scripture, you can reference Hebrews 4:12 - "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."

Biblically speaking spirit and soul are at time used interchangeably. However most often when the bible speaks of spirit it is speaking of one's center, heart or essence. The soul on the other hand most times speaks to the will. The soul is where our intellect resides. We are to constantly renew our minds to that which is good versus that which is unrighteous. It's really the only way to stay afloat considering all mess that we have to deal with in this world.
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
41 months ago: OOTB

So you're a 'number five' who's reciting a Protestant catechism. What you makes you anymore sure than a Catholic, Mormon, Jew, Muslim, Buddhist, Atheist, etc. who think they're sure and can regurgitate their religious catechism, or dogma in the case of an Atheist?

Of course they don't know anymore than you don't know, and as for Huey's hope, anybody can hope or offer hope. Obama wrote a book called Audacity of Hope and lots of people who bought that hope are now having buyers remorse. For example, I heard Cenk Uygur from The Young Turks cry that Rahm Emanuel is Obama's Dick Cheney, thus implying that Obama is merely an empty suited puppet. It's only a been year and his partisans are already throwing him under the bus. So much for hope.

Similarly, your statement of free salvation is a pitchman's sham as it comes with an obligation of religious servitude including becoming a pitchman (multi-level marketing at it's best), and it certainly costs money to propagate the sales pitch. You think Churches build themselves and Pat Robertson doesn't live high on the hog for being a good pitchman?

The only person who's said anything close to the truth here is TCG - unless you're cremated completely, put in cryogenics, or your corpse is deposited in outer space, we'll all end being worm food. Anything beyond that is a WAG.
Siempre Solo
Siempre Solo
Auburn, NY
41 months ago: If by soul one means spirit then a person has no soul/spirit. Because the life force within us belongs to G-d who gave it and it will return to him when we die. No man is immortal only G-d is Immortal from everlasting to everlasting. However if by soul one means the body which G-d made from the dust of the ground combined with the breath of life that is G-d’s spirit then that soul is the individual animated, that soul is a man or a woman in the flesh and alive, that person is alive from the moment he/she can live independently from its mothers body until that person draws his/her last breath at which point death will separate the spirit of G-d which animates the flesh and that person will cease to exist, until the 1st or 2nd resurrection depending on if you were saved or lost, simple enough huh?
Now if you wish to know what part of the body contains ones cognitive ability to be self aware that is a little more tricky because it is not just the brain that remembers but every cell in your body does too in the form of cellular memory. Body parts that have been donated after a person’s death to another person will retain the original persons “habits” thus affecting the host. One could say that one is truly not completely dead until every part of that person has completely ceased to function. What say you all? Any takers?
41 months ago: Anyone who lets another take hope from them is a fool.

markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
41 months ago: ...Anyone who lets another take hope from them is a fool...

So if somebody has their hope in a sculpted rock and you come around to educate them that a rock is an inanimate object composed of minerals with no supernatural powers, the person is a fool if they get educated and stop hoping in the rock?
41 months ago: That's up to them.

They have to make the decision based on their own convictions and thoughts along with whatever new information is presented, not just because someone else says it's so.
Paper Tiger
Paper Tiger
England
33 months ago: Re-They have to make the decision based on their own convictions and thoughts along with whatever new information is presented, not just because someone else says it's so.

Everything we know has been told to us since the day we were born. Its our only we of knowing anything.
33 months ago: PT - Correct. And it is up to the individual to make the decision based on what is presented and their evaluation of its credence. One should never take a position based solely on majority opinion or allow themselves to be bullied or intimidated in order to fit in or make peace.

One can present a case and then it is up to the individual to decide for themself.
41 months ago: huey, was that for me? ok, Out of the Box just made me think a little... my faith is still intact... the bible also says that a person who calls another person a "fool" is "in danger of hellfire." so be nice!
41 months ago: Just trying to encourage.

In a war, you never take off your helmet or allow anyone else to do it either.

http://www.christcenteredmall.com/teachings/armor/helmet.htm
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
41 months ago: Markbyrn

...it comes with an obligation of religious servitude including becoming a pitchman (multi-level marketing at it's best), and it certainly costs money to propagate the sales pitch...

There is no obligation, and no cost. Once a true Christian, the desire to spread the word is in you, and you can't stop yourself from doing it. It is not a chore that has to performed. There is no servitude, except to God and Jesus. There IS service to your fellow man, but not servitude. As to the cost, it would be no more of my time and money than what I would gladly give to those less fortunate that I see on the streets every day, whether I were a Christian, or not.

Once again, let me reiterate that I don't embrace organized religion, just as (I believe) Jesus never intended Christianity to develop into an organized "religion".

You will notice that I said "My personal belief..." in preface to my statements. I did not attack your personal beliefs, why do you feel compelled to attack a Christian's beliefs? I feel that perhaps you are crying out for someone to convince you. Spend a little quiet time in meditation, maybe ask God?
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
41 months ago: toniface and HN

I knew that passage would be clear for a believer, and toni, I knew your faith was not in jeopardy by reading it. And Huey, we are at war with the enemy, and no one here is the enemy. None of us have all the answers. If we did, we could easily bring everyone to Christ.
41 months ago: OOTB - That wasn't a shot at you.

I know the enemy is unseen. I was just trying to encourage my sister.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
41 months ago: HN

I know you were trying to encourage. I think toni may have been joking a bit, about losing her faith. Nothing wrong with her sense of humor. :). Just like Markbyrn said, you can hold on to the hope of this world, and have your hopes dashed to pieces, or you can hold on to the hope of heaven, and live forever.
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
41 months ago: OOTB,

I understand you don't want it to call it an organized religion as a form of clever wordplay to diminish those other 'mere' religions but it's still a religion (a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe) even if you don't belong to a congregation and don't meet with other Christians.

Speaking of wordplay, if you're propagating your religious beliefs (regardless of what euphemism you substitute for religion) and condemning others people's beliefs and religion that are contrary to your religion, you call it 'spreading the word'.

On the other hand, if somebody does the same to you, it's an attack? To me, if you say that somebody else's religion (or non-religion) is invalid and they're condemned by God, that's an attack even if you a big crocodile smile on your face when you say it.

As for 'free' salvation, your response only confirms what I said - there's an expected obligation for this "free" salvation, and to say that somebody will have a compulsive desire so that it's not really an obligation is just spin as well as being a contradiction of your own bible.
THE RONBOT HUNTER
THE RONBOT HUNTER
41 months ago: It is all speculation or just guessing.

No one can prove anything as of yet.

But being the Ronbot Hunter that I am, I can tell you what the Cult of Greed and Sin says about the soul.

The RonbotS say that your soul goes to the "IMPLANT STATION" in the sky.

From there it is sent back to Earth, to "pick up" another body.

This is the Church of $cientology's official Church policy on the soul.

Their beliefs on their souls is based upon science fiction, as is everything else.

As is their Billion Year Contract with your soul.

THE RONBOT HUNTER
ALL RIGHTS RESERVED

Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
41 months ago: Markbyrn

"I understand you don't want it to call it an organized religion as a form of clever wordplay to diminish those other 'mere' religions"

Not at all. I've stated over and over that none of us, us including me, have all the answers. Not one religion, organized or personal, can claim to be completely right or the favorite of God. While I don't "belong" to a congregation, I meet with other Christians daily.

"if you're propagating your religious beliefs (regardless of what euphemism you substitute for religion) and condemning others people's beliefs and religion that are contrary to your religion"

Refer to my words, and you will see that I do not condemn another's religion, or lack thereof. I have come close, when referring to the fact that there are those selected by God, and those that will be rejected. However that seems to you, it was not a personal attack on someone's beliefs.

"to say that somebody will have a compulsive desire so that it's not really an obligation is just spin"
Is your desire to eat compulsory or compulsive? Your sex drive? Your need to breathe? Let's say you try exercise, and you find that exercising regularly makes you feel better. Makes you feel really good, even. Are you a slave to exercise, if you do what makes you happy?
Altruist
Altruist
Eugene, OR
41 months ago: What I like the most about the Holy Flying Spaghetti Monster is that she never talks about putting on helmets, breastplates, and swords, for the faith. Taking care of all the creatures in the kazillions of worlds in the multiverse doesn't allow her to make one tiny tribe in the middle East her favorite.
Siempre Solo
Siempre Solo
Auburn, NY
41 months ago: Faith and Hope are intertwined with determination and resolve. G-d does not need to be found or proven to be real. If that is your goal than you miss the point of having faith. What sets the creator of the universe apart from the other objects of idolization is purpose. People are basically selfish creatures. A person seeks justification and purpose to do good, other wise we will not do it for the sake of just doing it. In worship of a deity most find purpose but that purpose is usually obscured by secret agendas and rituals and distractions. Worship of the creator G-d is different in the sense that the worshipper is going straight to the source of power and seeking to be aligned mentally with his purpose. To the faithless this seems like mumbo jumbo because they do not see anything wrong with themselves. So consequently why seek change?
THE RONBOT HUNTER
THE RONBOT HUNTER
41 months ago: SIEMPRE SOLO SAID:

People are basically selfish creatures. "A person seeks justification and purpose to do good, other wise we will not do it for the sake of just doing it"

That is a generality and not always true.

The better a person is the less this is so.

Even in little ways to the highest ways, I have helped people and animals without any reward expected or asked.

Each day I feed about 50 to 100 wild birds. These don't belong to me.

I have helped hundreds of people with my ebook to do their own recovery-no profit and no gain.

Just the satisfaction it gave me to do good for y fellow man.

All of you have helped people with no justification or any selfish purpose.

So, Mankind is basically good in all ways. Other things through out his life, makes him change.

That is why I help people, because of the goodness in them.

Even a member of the KKK is good to somebody.

No one is evil to everybody all the time.

Mankind is like a piece of putty, he can be molded by others.

THE RONBOT HUNTER
ALL RIGHTS RESERVED
Siempre Solo
Siempre Solo
Auburn, NY
41 months ago:
There is no denying that people can do good but why we do good is what makes us selfish. Truly altruistic behavior does not exist. It goes against our nature to seek our own for ourselves first. In this lies our selfishness. This is where faith in G-d makes a difference. When in the presence of omnipotence there is no reason to lie or hide or pretend. We can be sincere and in sincerity find a selfless reason to do good. It is what it means to be made in the image of G-d!
41 months ago: We are in a warfare. Believe it or not. Like it or not.

Everyone here should be fighting for he betterment of the human condition.

I am familiar with my weapons of warfare and I use them to the best of my ability.

I hope others do the same.
THE RONBOT HUNTER
THE RONBOT HUNTER
41 months ago: I do not see people as indicated by the definitions of selfish, listed here.

As I said before, people are not as you claim they are.

People are basically good, but life and their behavior, education and up-bringing can change them.

I see un-selfish acts all around me. Give people a chance and they will surprise you.

That is why when I go out, I have a great time with people. I can charm a woman just like my Grand-father could, I can make people smile and have fun with them.

But if life is hard for some, their unhappiness will make them selfish, only because they have little to smile or laugh about.

People are not that bad. The masses are always the same. To know people is to love them, for the little lovable kids that they are inside.

To think bad of them, is to not really know them.

To love them is to love all mankind.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/SELFISH
Main Entry: self•ish
Pronunciation: \ˈsel-fish\
Function: adjective
Date: 1640

1 : concerned excessively or exclusively with oneself : seeking or concentrating on one's own advantage, pleasure, or well-being without regard for others

2 : arising from concern with one's own welfare or advantage in disregard of others

3 : being an actively replicating repetitive sequence of nucleic acid that serves no known function ; also : being genetic material solely concerned with its own replication

THE SOUL IN YOU IS BASICALLY GOOD.

THE RONBOT HUNTER
ALL RIGHTS RESERVED
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
41 months ago: OOTB,

...I have come close, when referring to the fact that there are those selected by God, and those that will be rejected...

As long as you're not purposely using nebulous ecumenical language to hide an exclusivist message, I can agree. If you really meant to say that God rejects all those who aren't "born again" in Jesus per the Christian Bible, I'd say you're engaging in a psychological technique that charlatan L Ron Hubbard of Scientology cult fame endorsed as a method of communicating to unbelievers.

"Handling truth is a touchy business also. You don't have to tell everything you know — that would jam the comm line too. Tell an acceptable truth. … So PR becomes the technique of communicating an acceptable truth — and which will attain the desirable result."

Hubbard wasn't a Christian but he essentially took a page out of the Christian Bible:

"His disciples asked him what this parable meant. He (Jesus) said, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of God has been given to you, but to others I speak in parables, so that, though seeing, they may not see; though hearing, they may not understand. This is the meaning of the parable..."-Luke 8

I'm not going to believe in a religious guru who endorses dissimulation much less follow an alleged deity who stoops to it. Quite the opposite - I'm going to expose it as the deceptive fraud that it is.

...Let's say you..find that exercising regularly makes you feel better..Are you a slave to exercise...

Ok, let's say gave the free gift of golf clubs to a prodigy golfer. The budding golfer religiously uses your clubs for the next year but than meets a girl, gets her pregnant, and loses dedication to the game and becomes a duffer. You find out and take the clubs back, angrily telling the golfer that the 'free gift' was only provided on the natural expectation that he'd become the next Tiger Woods, make millions of dollars, and of course be grateful to the one who gave you the free clubs.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
41 months ago: Isaiah 6:9-10 Septuagint 'You will be ever hearing, but never understanding; / you will be ever seeing, but never perceiving.' / 10 This people's heart has become calloused; / they hardly hear with their ears, / and they have closed their eyes.

compared to

Isaiah 6:9-10 KJV And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.

10Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

Considering the fact that the KJV Bible is rife with misinterpretation, I would entertain the thought that Jesus's words were misinterpreted by the catholic church also.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
41 months ago: 11"This is the meaning of the parable: The seed is the word of God.
12Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved. 13Those on the rock are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away.
14The seed that fell among thorns stands for those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by life's worries, riches and pleasures, and they do not mature.
15But the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and by persevering produce a crop.

I'm guessing the boy with golf clubs would be covered in either verse 13 or verse 14.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
41 months ago: The purpose of the parable was not to hide information, or to indicate that some were unworthy of the truth, but rather a way to tell something to a particular person or group, without having to call them out in public. Jesus was a very public figure, and had very rare instances when he could meet in private with those he had a message for.

While the parable is a form of dissimulation, a disguising of the the truth, it was used, as in the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, to convey a message without publicly embarrassing those for whom it was intended.
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
41 months ago: OOTB
...Isaiah 6:9-10 Septuagint...

Why quote an English translation of a Greek translation of a Hebrew text? Let's skip the middleman and quote the English translation of the Hebrew Masoretic Text.

And He said: 'Go, and tell this people: hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they, seeing with their eyes, and hearing with their ears, and understanding with their heart, return, and be healed.' Jewish Publication Society's 1917 edition at http://tinyurl.com/ybzo49e

It's actually quite close to the King James but the KJV's Christian translators inappropriately added the word convert, perhaps to assist the "New Testament" writer's desire to shoehorn Jesus into prophecies that he could 'fulfill'

...Considering the fact that the KJV Bible is rife with misinterpretation, I would entertain the thought that Jesus's words were misinterpreted by the catholic church also...

I agree fully but of course adds the conundrum of an allegedly omnipotent god who failed in the simplest godly miracle of preserving the originally penned manuscripts - allowing transcription corruption and translation errors into this man preserved and determined canon of books that are called the inspired scripture of this omnipotent god.
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
41 months ago: OOTB,
...The purpose of the parable was not to hide information...Jesus was a very public figure, and had very rare instances when he could meet in private...it was used to convey a message without publicly embarrassing those for whom it was intended...

If that's the case, than you just exposed another example of dissimulation because Jesus didn't give provide your cogent explanation. Did he say, "but to others I speak in parables, so that I won't cause undue public embarrassment?" No, but if that's what he meant a forthright individual, especially an alleged deity would do so.

Also, your statement of Jesus having rare instances to meet in private is quite at odds with the New Testament fables of Jesus as one who could literally walk on water, change water into wine, heal the dead, and other stupendous supernatural feats that would make any modern day charlatan faith healer blush with embarrassment. An omnipotent god who literally made time could make the time. Speaking of parables, I swallowed the red pill not the blue pill.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
41 months ago: Jesus could have also smote Satan and ended the whole thing, but he chose not to. He could have avoided the cross, and yet again, chose not to. Why? My answer is a big, fat "I don't know." I can't answer why God did everything he did. I will be able to, eventually.

And red pills and blue pills are great in a movie, but as for me, I didn't swallow anything. I do my homework. We all know that the bible has come a long way since the original authors. The fact that it is still around, much of it for around 6000 years in written form, says a lot to me.

The fact that the version accepted by the church, which includes much work by Paul, tells me to dig a lot deeper, and to study to show myself approved. I personally believe that most Paul's work should have been omitted, and some other works should have been included.

I have seen recently, Bibles with the wiccan 666 symbol on the front cover. I have seen people who twist the scripture to mean whatever they want it to mean. Those are the people who usually scream the loudest about the Bible's infallible nature. That is not me. I believe the main message has been left intact, regardless of the enemy's attempts to trick us, and God leaves us with the instructions "Study to show yourself approved..."

Am I contradicting myself? No. Even though written by Paul, the Bible as we know it did not exist at the time of Paul's writings.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
41 months ago: http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/march2009/kevinh319.htm

Just to show how facts can be manipulated.
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
41 months ago: ...Jesus could have also smote Satan and ended the whole thing, but he chose not to...

Or it's a case of trying to rationalize allegory and fables as literal truth. As far as the Bible being infallible, that concept is almost singularly proffered by Protestant Fundamentalists, certainly not by wiccans, and where did you get this amusing tidbit about wiccan 666 on bibles? Appears to be the typical evangelical tact of demonization and mis-characterization of other religions.

Here's what the Mormons say about the Bible:

The books that make up the Bible have a long and complicated history that goes back thousands of years. They have not been perpetually maintained by the Lord's prophets. Can anyone name the last apostle to actually touch the sacred text? After Moses wrote Genesis, who were each of the caretakers of the text down to our day? We don't have a clue. The vast majority of Jewish, Protestant, and Catholic scholars readily confirm that the Bible is imperfect and has been edited to suit the agenda of the compilers. Only the most narrow Fundamentalist Protestants do not accept this view and insist the Bible must be infallible and completely perfect.
Altruist
Altruist
Eugene, OR
41 months ago: Muslims also acknowledge the fact that "sacred texts" evolve with each telling or copy by a scribe. That is why Muslims say that the best way to read the Koran is in the original Arabic. Unfortunately that means that most Muslims can't really read the Koran, they rely on the Hadiths which are interpretations by scholars and Imams.
I will probably get a death sentence for suggesting that not all of the folk writing these interpretations are "breathed on by God" so their works are infallible.
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
41 months ago: The likelihood of Muhammad hearing from the Angel Gabriel was about as likely as Moses hearing God from a burning bush, Mary Magdalene seeing a resurrected Jesus, or Noah getting instructions from God to build a fantastical ark.

Speaking of Noah's Ark and the topic of souls, check out this video where both issues are addressed and I highly recommend watching the entire series, part 1 to part 31.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttnU8Tbwtd0
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
41 months ago: "where did you get this amusing tidbit about wiccan 666 on bibles?"

Known as the triquetra, it has been used in association with wiccan beliefs about the nature of the goddess, and the trinacria also used to represent Baal. A triquetra is an ancient protective Triple Goddess symbol. The three yonic vesicas are spaced evenly and often a circle is added. Some versions are interlaced as in this one, some are not.


http://www.google.com/products/catalog?hl=en&q=new+king+james+bible+books&show=dd&cid=10700489452243367436&sa=image#p

"Appears to be the typical evangelical tact of demonization and mis-characterization of other religions."

A lot of things are not what they appear to be. Your perception is 99% of your reality.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
41 months ago: I have studied wicca, under the tutelage of Yvonne and Gavin Frost, and it is not the benign picture of harmony with nature and mankind that they attempt to paint. I learned spells to kill those who interfere with my plans and desires, spells to force others into quiescence, and spells to converse with other-worldly beings.

Among the religions I have studied are Hare Krishna, Mormon, Catholic based religions, Protestant based religions, Sanatana Dharma, Satanism, and Atheism. Islam is one area I have no knowledge of, first hand. As it is set to become the predominant religion in the world, I guess I better get busy.
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
41 months ago: OOTB,

The triqueta is undoubtedly a pagan symbol that Christians appropriated from paganism just like they did with Christmas trees, and it's used as a symbol of the three person Christian God; what you call the Trinity.

Are you saying that Thomas Nelson Christian booksellers are crpyto-Wiccans because they put the symbol on the Bibles they sell? Come on - nobody buys Thomas Nelson except for Protestant Fundamentalists; certainly not Wiccans.

As for studying Wicca, I assume you personally meet with Gavin Frost to objectively learn or practice Wicca, and you weren't a Christian at the time? Or was it as a Christian doing the usual hyper-critical comparative analysis like you're going to "study" Islam? BTW, If you really want to "study" Islam, drive on over to an Islamic center and attend an Islamic school just like Christians attend a Sunday school - learn first hand without any Christian apologist anti-Muslim documentation to get in the way.

...I learned spells to kill those who interfere with my plans and desires, spells to force others into quiescence, and spells to converse with other-worldly beings...

I found Gavin's blog at gavinandyvonne.blogspot.com and I'd like to ask him about your claim. If they believe in killing people with spells, they're operating in complete opposition to the key moral system as defined by the Wiccan Rede - do what you will, so long as it harms none.

But let's assume for the moment they do believe in killing people with spells - that's no different than the multitudes of Christians who who have killed in the name of God, or "not genuine Christians" as you might prefer.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
41 months ago: I was in a period of searching, in my early twenties, and of course I did not meet personally with them. I acquired several of their books, beginning with the introduction to wicca, and moving on to more advanced wiccan philosophies and techniques. I was introduced to Christianity while in my teens, the first time I had set foot in a church I was fourteen. I am definitely not one who cut my teeth on religion.

Don't be so quick to attach the labels of your own perception to others, you will be surprised far too often, and those that cannot be goaded into foolish anger will surprise you even more. Guard your flanks with an open mind, and you will not be blinded.

"as you might prefer."

Point well taken.
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
41 months ago: OOTB,

So the Gavin's sent you written materials how to kill people with spells? Maybe you could post that material as evidence, and of course for 'safety' purposes, black out the key "boom shaka laka" catch phrases that might make the kill spells work.

Of course any rational person would know that white or black magic doesn't exist - it's only the tricks and mastery of charlatanism with dupes and desperate seekers to pay the bills.

...I was in a period of searching, in my early twenties...

I have to confess the same thing and I was into all manner of manner of religion, mysticism, and paranormal exploration. Don't tell SS but I even attended a Seventh Day Adventist Church but only to surreptitiously analyze it as a counterfeit Christian cult. One of my favorite shows back in the day was "In Search of" with Leonard Nimoy and I swallowed every nutty pseudoscientific and paranormal claim because "Mr Spock" would never lie to me.

Now back to the present and level headed rationality. Wicca is no more real than the Bewitched TV show was a documentary, and it's no more real than a three personage deity that sent himself to die for himself.

...Don't be so quick to attach...Guard your flanks with an open mind...

Excellent comment and I advise you similarly.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
41 months ago: The Magic Power of Witchcraft, Published in 1977, Prentiss Hall Press

Starts out in the preface saying how witchcraft is so misunderstood, and how it is really no more dangerous than plugging into a wall socket, the power is there, just tap into it. It discusses the idea that God and Satan do not exist, only the thoughtforms of them exist, and every time someone thinks of them, their thoughtforms gain power. Then they talk about the Hunter God and the Harvest Goddess. They say "you will not be expected to deal with spirits or demons or any of their ilk" in one chapter, and then several chapters later, deliver instructions on how to construct a scrying bowl to contact your "spirit guide".

One of the early chapters in the book is about how to make your spouse either accept or remain incognizant of the fact that you will be performing sexual spells with other witches to gain the material things that you desire.

Close on the heels of that is a chapter dealing with a lady named Sue, who badly wanted a promotion at her job. One other person wanted the same promotion, so, to increase the likelihood that she would get the promotion, she placed a spell on the unfortunate fellow, who promptly fell off a roof and died.

It is obviously black magic, swathed in the feel good tree hugginess of wicca. No self respecting Wiccan would fall for this, but the uninitiated might get in over their heads before they realized it.

Same is true for the New King James bible. Subtle changes in wording set up a different understanding of the overall.
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
41 months ago: ...Same is true for the New King James bible...

The New King James Version was simply a failed appeasement to hard-bitten fundamentalists who claim that the original King James "Authorized Version" of 1611 was the one true and perfect Bible.

Of course there was a certain clever logic to this 'King James only' ploy as fundamentalist leaders are desperate to squelch any rational notions that would even hint at the prospect of textual corruption and the domino effect that has - a perfect god can't allow a corrupted bible can he? Why yes, he did allow corruption and the original penned manuscripts are nothing but dust.

So like a creationist living in a self-imposed fantasy of a young Earth with Science as the mortal enemy, the King James Bible kooks similarly rant that all other versions of the English Bible are satanic in origin.

Of course the ostrich loons who parrot this theory hide or are ignorant of the fact that the King James Bible has had several iterations since 1611 and nobody uses the 1611 version except as a historical reference piece.
someone
someone
New York, NY
40 months ago:


Here is an interesting take on life after death. Kinda depressing. It's an article that originally appeared in Scientific American called "Never Say Die: Why We Can't Imagine Death". If the link doesn't work just do a search on the title

http://bit.ly/axNA9m
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
40 months ago: I think Mark Twain sagely expressed the non-existence concept of the Scientific American article:

"Mr. Clemens was once asked whether he feared death. He said that he did not, in view of the fact that he had been dead for billions and billions of years before he was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it."
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
40 months ago: someone

The idea of death as the ending of the self is in the Bible.

Psalms 146:4 When a man dies, “in that very day his thoughts perish.”
Ecclesiastes 9:5 “The dead know not anything.”
Ecclesiastes 9:10 “There is no work... nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave.”

Mark Twain was a man ready for death, he longed for death, and was perturbed that he did not die according to his "preordained" schedule.

For some reason he didn't put any faith in religious matters, but yet held great stock in astrological phenomena.

He also said, "I am silent on the subject because of necessity. I have friends in both places."
39 months ago: Two foundational questions might be phrased:

"Am I my soul." Alternatively:
"Do I have a soul."

Because, you see, let's say I exist, but pack around a "soul". Then I've got this question, "Where did I put the darn thing just before I forgot about my soul?"

Whereas, if I AM my soul then I don't have any recalling to worry about. I am it and it is me, la ti dah, what is new with thee?
denise94
denise94
Gold Beach, OR
38 months ago: If you have been dead then you would know.

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