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Truth From the Grave

Posted 29 months ago|97 comments|1,414 views
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Out Of The Box
 Moderator
Truth be known, it is an oft held precept that there is nothing new under the sun. In case you haven't heard or read this speech before, I thought it fitting to post it here.

If you would rather just listen to it, the link to the left points to an audio recording.

Ronald Reagan speaking in 1961 against socialized medicine for the American Medical Association's Operation Coffee Cup Campaign


"Now back in 1927 an American socialist, Norman Thomas, six times candidate for president on the Socialist Party ticket, said the American people would never vote for socialism. But he said under the name of liberalism the American people would adopt every fragment of the socialist program. There are many ways in which our government has invaded the free precincts of private citizens, method of earning a living; our government is in business to the extent of owning more than 19,000 businesses covering 47 different lines of activity. This amounts to 1/5th of the total industrial capacity of the United States.

But at the moment I would like to talk about another one because this threat is with us, and at the moment, more imminent.

One of the traditional methods of imposing statism or socialism on a people has been by way of medicine. It’s very easy to disguise a medical program as a humanitarian project, most people are a little reluctant to oppose anything that suggests medical care for people who possibly can’t afford it. Now, the American people, if you put it to them about socialized medicine and gave them a chance to choose, would unhesitatingly vote against it. We have an example of this. Under the Truman administration it was proposed that we have a compulsory health insurance program for all people in the United States, and, of course, the American people unhesitatingly rejected this.

So with the American people on record as not wanting socialized medicine, Congressman Ferrand introduced the Ferrand bill. This was the idea that all people of social security age, should be brought under a program of compulsory health insurance. This would not only be our senior citizens, this would be the dependents and those that are disabled, this would be young people if they are dependents of someone eligible for social security.

Now Congressman Ferrand, brought the program out on that idea out , on just for that particular group of people. But Congressman Ferrand was subscribing to this foot-in-the door philosophy, because he said, “If we can only break through and get our foot inside the door, then we can extend the program after that.” Walter Ruth said, “It’s no secret that the United Automobile Workers is officially on record of backing a program of national health insurance.” And by national health insurance, he meant socialized medicine for every American.

Now let us see what the socialist themselves have to say about it. They say once the Ferrand bill is passed this nation will be provided with a mechanism for socialized medicine capable of indefinite expansion in every direction until it includes the entire population. Now we can’t say we haven’t been warned.

Now Congressman Ferrand is no longer a Congressman of the United States government. He has been replaced, not in the particular assignment, but in his backing of such a bill by Congressman King of California. It is presented in the idea of a great emergency that millions of our senior citizens are unable to provide needed medical care. But this ignores that fact that 127 million of our citizens, in just 10 years, have come under the protection of some form of privately owned medical or hospital insurance.

Now the advocates of this bill when you try to oppose it challenge you on an emotional basis and say, “What would you do? Throw these poor people out to die with no medical attention?

That’s ridiculous and of course no one is advocating it. As a matter of fact, in the last session of Congress a bill was adopted known as the Kerr/Mill bill. Now without even allowing this bill to be tried to see if it works, they have introduced this King bill, which is really the Ferrand bill.

What is the Kerr/Mills bill? It is the frank recognition of the medical need or problem of the senior citizens I have mentioned and it has provided from the federal government, money to the states and the local communities that can be used at the discretion of the states to help those people who need it.

Now what reason could the other people have for backing a bill which says we insist on compulsory health insurance for senior citizens on a basis of age alone regardless if they are worth millions of dollars, whether they have an income, whether they are protected by their own insurance, whether they have savings.

I think we can be excused for believing that as ex-congressman Ferrand said, this was simply an excuse to bring about what they wanted all the time; socialized medicine.

James Madison in 1788 speaking to the Virginia convention said, “Since the general civilization of mankind, I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations.”

They want to attach this bill to social security and they say here is a great insurance program; now instituted, now working.

Let’s take a look at social security itself. Again, very few of us disagree with the original premise that there should be some form of savings that would keep destitution from following unemployment by reason of death, disability or old age. And to this end, social security was adopted, but it was never intended to supplant private savings, private insurance, pension programs of unions and industries.

Now in our country under our free enterprise system we have seen medicine reach the greatest heights that it has in any country in the world. Today, the relationship between patient and doctor in this country is something to be envied any place. The privacy, the care that is given to a person, the right to chose a doctor, the right to go from one doctor to another.

But let’s also look from the other side. The freedom the doctor uses. A doctor would be reluctant to say this. Well, like you, I am only a patient, so I can say it in his behalf. A doctor begins to lose his freedom, it’s like telling a lie. One leads to another. First you decide the doctor can have so many patients. They are equally divided among the various doctors by the government, but then the doctors are equally divided geographically, so a doctor decides he wants to practice in one town and the government has to say to him he can’t live in that town, they already have enough doctors. You have to go some place else. And from here it is only a short step to dictating where he will go.

This is a freedom I wonder if any of us has a right to take from any human being. I know how I’d feel if you my fellow citizens, that to be an actor I had to be a government employee and work in a national theater. Take it into your own occupation or that of your husband. All of us can see what happens once you establish the precedent that the government can determine a man’s working place and his working methods, determine his employment. From here it is a short step to all the rest of socialism, to determining his pay and pretty soon your son won’t decide when he’s in school where he will go or what he will do for a living. He will wait for the government to tell him where he will go to work and what he will do.

In this country of ours, took place the greatest revolution that has ever taken place in the world’s history; the only true revolution. Every other revolution just exchanged one set of rulers for another. But here, for the first time in all the thousands of years of man’s relations to man, a little group of men, the founding fathers, for the first time, established the idea that you and I had within ourselves, the God given right and ability, to determine our own destiny. This freedom is built into our government with safeguards. We talk democracy today, and strangely, we let democracy begin to assume the aspect of majority rules all that is needed. The “majority rule” is a fine aspect of democracy provided there are guarantees written in to our government concerning the rights of the individual and of the minority.

What can we do about this? Well, you and I can do a great deal. We can write to our congressmen and our senators. We can say right now that we want no further encroachment on these individual liberties and freedoms. And at the moment, the key issue is, we do not want socialized medicine.

In Washington today, 40 thousand letters, less than 100 per congressman are evidence of a trend in public thinking. Representative Hallock of Indiana has said, “When the American people want something from Congress, regardless of its political complexion, if they make their wants known, Congress does what the people want. So write, and if this man writes back to you and tells you that he too is for free enterprise, that we have these great services and so forth, that must be performed by government, don’t let him get away with it. Show that you have not been convinced. Write a letter right back and tell him that you believe government economy and fiscal responsibility, that you know governments don’t tax to get the moneys the need; governments will always find a need for the money they get and that you demand the continuation of our free enterprise system. You and I can do this. The only way we can do it is by writing to our congressmen even we believe that he is on our side to begin with. Write to strengthen his hand. Give him the ability to stand before his colleagues in Congress and say that he has heard from his constituents and this is what they want. Write those letters now and call your friends and them to write. If you don’t, this program I promise you, will pass just as surely as the sun will come up tomorrow and behind it will come other government programs that will invade every area of freedom as we have known it in this country until one day as Normal Thomas said we will wake to find that we have socialism, and if you don’t do this and I don’t do this, one of these days we are going to spend our sunset years telling our children and our children’s children, what it once was like in America when men were free."
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COMMENTS
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
29 months ago: This is great; I can cut and paste what I stated on a previous socialized medicine is ideological evil topic, and I even mentioned Reagan.

In addition to the military being a government enterprise, the 46,876 mile Interstate Highway System that the fundy-gels use to drive and back forth to their teabag crusades was championed by President Dwight D. Eisenhower and was perhaps the largest government public works projects in history. I guess since two of the justifications for the road network was defense and to sell cars, the bleating about big government & socialism was muted or non-existent, but why can't the fundy-gels and libertarians be consistent in their crusade against 'big' government? Maybe it's because they keep channeling Ronald Reagan and his hypocritical albeit folksy quips against government. Not to mention that under Reagan, the national debt ballooned from $700 billion to $3 trillion; I'll need to repost that factoid regularly when the neo-cons foam at the mouth over Obama's deficit spending.

Now to be fair, having been the beneficiary of socialized military and veterans medical care for the past 30 years, there's certainly some downside in this equation. For example, my primary care doctor at the VA isn't even a medical doctor; he's a physicians assistant (PA) and that's very common. Even when I was on active duty, I had a PA most of the time but overall, I can't complain since I'm not dead *TWEET* *TWEET*
JAK Gladney
JAK Gladney
Saint Albans, WV
29 months ago: The sad thing is that this recording was used in the campaign against Medicare, and Republicans have tried to distance themselves from this opposition--unsuccessfully--ever since. A bugaboo then, a bugaboo now.

Reagan told a lot of whoppers in the course of his political life: "trees cause more pollution than automobiles"; ketchup is a vegetable; the contras were "the moral equivalent of our founding fathers"; welfare queens; his involvement in a "special Army unit" that filmed the aftermath of Nazi concentration camps. Proof that even a bad actor can deliver these lines and have them accepted as an accurate representation of reality.
29 months ago: Not to worry guys. I am not, "not watching".
I do have more important things to worry about that I have been overlooking while amswering posts on RR. Those won't take second stage any longer. I have too many heads to keep employed.

I have been pushing my crew pretty hard at work.
Unlike most others that can report. (Oregon or West Virginia)

I actually have a workforce that is PRODUCING in a downturn economy. We have been producing gains over prior year delivered sales for the last 6 months. Documented fortune 500 company.

No, I will not tell you which one. That would be a SEC violation.

Hey STUPID, I have a question.

You guys get together and find a good median number...
How many people do you employ?
How many people have you "fired", "laid-off", "retired" or sent on "permanent leave" in the last 7 months?

I already know the answers....

My numbers for the above is ZERO...
How many of those received a raise this year. DUH?
All of mine received one!
29 months ago:
HNN, do you actually have a real job? Do you actually work at something that has value? I suspect you do not work or have employees, while living on some kind of "government" assistance program.

I'm curious to know how these sheep have so much time to "live" on this site to 24 hours a day 7 days a week. Would that not be hard if you had a "JOB" to perform? Maybe they are the "those". They have called us out as the "Elite". "They" could be the troll or mole to produce a response. Maybe "they" are just cavemen or acorn supporters/employees. That might explain the arguments on evolution.

Somebody from WV says they are retired military cursing us while he cashes his check...WV only has 3 things working for it..Coal, Coal and inbreds. Go Green! Clean Coal! What a load of dung.

Or, am I wrong?

You spell it out. Your employees that get a non-governmental subsidised check.
How many?
How long?

Please start your count on Inauguration day 2009.
Sorry, That is when you bought the package.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
29 months ago: Markbyrn,
So I have the government to thank for the raping of millions of acres of pristine lands to provide us with more solar heat absorbing blacktop. Thanks, government!

JAK, Nice to see ya again. I was wondering what it would take to get ya back.

I was just wondering, what do a few inaccuracies about other topics have to do with this particular one?

Oh yes, now I remember, try to discredit the speaker, and all that he just said, hopefully, becomes suspect.

That is what the lawyers do when they don't really have a case.
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
29 months ago: TCG, You really sound stressed out even as you pound your chest. Are you saying your political views are righteous because you got a job or employ people and if somebody is retired, disabled, unemployed, or otherwise has time to post, their views are invalid?

Let's expose the 'logic' of your personal attack argument by highlighting the CEO of Apple, Inc., Steve Jobs. Now even you'd have to admit he's a pretty hard working guy and his company employs 20,000 odd folk. Head over to http://www.newsmeat.com/billionaire_political_donations/Steve_Jobs.php and see which political candidates he's given money to. Let's see now, there would be Rahm Emanuel, Edward Kennedy, and Nancy Pelosi.

Just in case you hate Apple, even billionaire Bill Gates supported Obama and via his foundation, he's the 2nd most generous Philanthropist behind warren Buffett.

Since Gates and Jobs have probably contributed more to the world than you have, they don't cash a government check each month, and it's highly unlikely they have the time or inclination to use sites like to this make missives, I guess we all need to follow in lock step with their views, and support Obama and liberal causes.

There's your TCG logic bomb of the day.
29 months ago: No crap. If you can't get them to buy in with the first pitch befuddle them with the second pitch. If they don't buy in after that then shout them down calling them fools, stupid, racist, bigots, home grown terrorists, brownshirts, Nazis, anti-American, unAmerican, naive, useless, rich, conservative and Republican.

Did I miss anything?
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
29 months ago: TCG, by the way, if you're so busy with your "job", how is that you're ranked 11th of out of 2,120 members on this website?! HNN is only ranked 43rd. Hello? Pot? Kettle?
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
29 months ago: TCG, who's calling who Brown Shirts? Are you referring to RedStateGuy and his Cyber Brown Shirts rant on Obama with a picture of Massolini?
29 months ago: Mark,

How many people do you employ today?

Yeah, I pound my chest. Not because of anything the current administration has done. My team did it on their own. Is it wrong to praise a well performing team is such times? Please enlighten us on your teams performance.

I'll do better than that.

You pick your best 2 and I'll pick my best 2.

Let's see how equal they are.
29 months ago: Please Mark. ranking is related to how many Rant/Rave postings you have made along with the number of views. It has nothing to do with how many distasteful relies you submit to a thread. My rank is number 11? I never noticed and really don't give a crud. Seems that y'all might be keeping score though.

Hey everyone. Make a point to visit each posters stats and see how they "RANK" on RR. That is too rich.

While your at it see how many of them have the guts to include their city, state, and RR personal email contact access.

Too bad these dim o crats don't seem to see the light.

Might explain the dim.
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
29 months ago: TCG, oh what a wit you are - dim o crats. I don't know how the rankings are calculated; you obviously nerded out to research the variables. Don't you got better things to do like run your vast fortune 500 company?
29 months ago: I'm too nerded? That is too Markiefunny. I don't "run" a fortune 500 company. However, I do run the most profitible department in the companies second largest world marketplace. Funny since you are still holding on to the give me. Gimmie, gimmie, and gimmie everyone since they are working and paying for it. Nice comments...
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
29 months ago: TCG, for a guy who's concerned about people having too much job free time to make 'distasteful' relies to a thread, you sure aren't a shrinking violet when it comes to the reply count. Pot? Kettle?
29 months ago: No, Because I only do this after I WORK my 10 + hours a day. Where do you stand on work then play? Forget it Your just play 10 hours and doubleplay another 8 hours. You guys crack me up.

Hey everyone! Listen up! I command you! Smarklie demands!

(quote from M with expansion since they like to expand)
I have spent years in the Military defending your entire family and your way of life. Now that I am no longer in the Military has no bearing on what you thought of my past deeds. Those are the past and I was only following my prime directive. Now that I am out I don't have to follow that prime directive. Those directives were not what I wanted but had to follow as I was instructed that I would loose my 25 year benifit package if I spoke out. Sorry to delay my speaking out. I'm now out of the military and getting my (your) check every month for the rest of my life. I couldn't speak out while I was in the military. I will be more than happy to speak out now. Since my checks (from you) will keep rolling in.

Yeah, yeah, Yeah.S.A. Cha-Ching.
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
29 months ago: TCG,

If you actually served in the military, you'd realize there's no prerequisite to be a right wing fundamentalist feigning patriotism. You can be left, right, or in between. I merely had to solemnly swear that I would support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I would bear true faith and allegiance to the same.

Sorry you don't understand or appreciate it.
29 months ago: I understand it. Am I wrong in thinking that every U.S. elected official takes a similar oath? I'm guessing you might still be holding your oath in your own way. Is it up to debate on what the oath means?

I believe the meaning is clear.
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
29 months ago: Retired military members are still subject to the Uniform Code of Military Justice, and can be recalled to active duty at anytime although it's not likely after the age of 60 since it would be the lowest category for mobilization. If I'm recalled, I'll salute smartly, put on my uniform (still fits), and off I go.
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
29 months ago: Yes, elected official also take an oath.

US Constitution, Article 6:

The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.
29 months ago: TCG, "While you’re at it see how many of them have the guts to include their city, state, and RR personal email contact access." Would that be NONE? I know my personal stuff isn't listed but there is also the direct email approach via R/R that keeps your communications private. I don't think anyone would welcome some of the radicals who visit this site showing up on their doorsteps if they posted their home address. I will warn anyone that arrives on mine with ill intent that I am armed, the dogs won't bite but I might.

There is a natural fear of the government taking a huge role in our health care system, will our level of care fall or will it go up? Depends on where you sit now. Mine will probably not change. I'm retired military who was disabled after retiring so now I draw my EARNED retirement check and social security disability, just like anyone else who worked long enough to retire from a civilian company and was disabled BEFORE social security retirement age. I have Medicare as my primary health insurance (after two years of disability you are required to accept Medicare) and Tricare as my secondary (that is earned by military service, if you retire). I even have a son who is young enough to receive a check under my disability, not for much longer though. Even though I am still financially responsible for him and will be helping pay his college costs, once he turns 18, social security cuts him off, and that is besides the fact that the government considers him my dependant until he is 24 if he is a full time student. But that’s my situation and this is about all of us.
29 months ago: Those who do not have any medical insurance will see an increase in access to medical care, those who already have medical insurance will see some changes, probably due to cost cutting efforts by their employers. As for a decrease in care or loss of access to care, I don’t foresee it, but I’m not a fortune teller either.

Now the government is not known for being able to manage programs without a lot of waste and I expect that it will be monumental, not to mention the fraud and graft and all the other problems that go along with millions of dollars floating around that someone can figure out a way to siphon off and not get caught for years and years. These are just problems that we will have to watch for and guard against and our representative will have to listen when we tell them that something needs to be looked into and fixed.

Will a more socialized system be bad for us? Not from my viewpoint, I’ve been under it for years and although I started out my retirement years under one system that for a modest premium (after my service) allowed me more freedom to choose who my doctor would be and now am under another system that is less restrictive than the first, no referrals required, I feel that my care is as good as I can get for no more than I’ve had to pay in cash to upgrade from the basic plan. (The cost of being disabled that brought about the switch to Medicare is incalculable.)

As for Reagan’s speech, he was a politician and their speeches are designed to sway the listener to one side or the other.
JAK Gladney
JAK Gladney
Saint Albans, WV
29 months ago: Hi, Cypress. I'm JAK. HNN and I are not the same person, and since I don't see HNN posting on this topic, I'll assume those West Virginia barbs are for me. I never really know who your insults are directed at: you're like some bile-scattering wet banana.

I don't care about your "Fortune 500" company--if it's like everything else in Texas, I'm sure it runs like a top. Everyone online is a millionaire, just like everyone online looks like Brad Pitt. It costs you nothing to say this, but if you think it lends credibility to your comments, go ahead and say it: you need all the help you can get.

I'm not sure how rankings are done here, but mark raises a valid point. I post a lot on this site (or used to): you're still ranked above me. Lots of downtime in that precious business? You're good for a laugh.

Get back to work, original bulging briefcase man. You're not contributing anything of value here.
JAK Gladney
JAK Gladney
Saint Albans, WV
29 months ago: A Reagan post will usually draw me out, OOTB.

The whoppers are just representative. Reagan was a great pitchman, and when this was recorded he was pitching Medicare as socialized medicine.

Here's a fun exercise: find out how many Republicans will go on the record against Medicare as socialized disaster.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
29 months ago: http://www.perrspectives.com/blog/archives/000285.htm

http://www.c-spanarchives.org/congress/?q=node/77531&id=3509860
http://tech.mit.edu/V115/N44/democrats.44w.html
"The savings can be achieved, (Republicans) say, largely by slowing the annual rate of growth in spending, from about 10 percent to just over 4 percent, and by channeling seniors into less expensive, managed-care settings."
http://minnesotaindependent.com/42034/gop-embraces-medicare-to-kill-health-care-reform
"Last year, when the Bush administration rolled out its annual budget proposing more than $500 billion in Medicare cuts, many Republican leaders cheered the legislation as a necessary move in the direction of fiscal responsibility."

http://crooksandliars.com/node/30067/print
Even as Republicans wage their new war against the latest efforts at health care reform, they are still fighting the last one. 44 years after the passage of Medicare, Republicans leaders like Rep. Tom Price (R-GA) are attacking Democratic proposals by blasting the popular health system for America's elderly. Sadly for the GOP, Medicare's proven success in reducing poverty among the elderly and its strong support from beneficiaries belies Price's claim that "nothing has had a greater negative effect on the delivery of health care than the federal government's intrusion into medicine through Medicare."
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
29 months ago: http://www.house.gov/pelosi/flRepsOpposeMedicare062702.htm

"Newt Gingrich, when he was Speaker of the House, said that he would like to see Medicare, in his words, 'wither on the vine.' And the Republican Majority Leader, Dick Armey, said that Medicare should be 'no part of the free world.' And in the debate in the Rules Committee early this morning, Congressman John Linder referred to Medicare as a 'Soviet-style model' that the Democrats were proposing."

http://wonkroom.thinkprogress.org/2009/07/29/medicare-44/
"Rep. Mike Pence (R-IN) explained his opposition to a new public health care option by arguing that Medicare spending has exceeded actuarial estimates from 1965."
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
29 months ago: That's all I have time for right now.

For the record, I am a compassionate conservative that does believe in the good of Medicare, providing care for our senior citizens and disabled citizens.

I also believe that it is a bloated program, with much waste, not in the unnecessary dispensation of care, but in the self serving bureaucracy that inevitably develops
when people have free reign to spend other people's money.
JAK Gladney
JAK Gladney
Saint Albans, WV
29 months ago: Dick Armey, appearing on "Meet the Press". The exchange w/ Rachel Maddow is telling:

http://chattahbox.com/us/2009/08/17/dick-armey-medicare-is-tyranny-seniors-captured-by-it/

Armey is an important player in the current health care debate--his Freedomworks is busy selling talking points to the town hallers. Pressed on his views by Maddow, he refuses to stand by his belief that most seniors want to opt out of Medicare. Cynical politics. I'd argue that this is more than concern over bloat--more the systematic dismantling of the post-FDR social safety net. Bloat can be negotiated--the other touchces on foundational beliefs.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
29 months ago: Well, watching and reading the same exchange..... hold on a sec, let me look at it again.....

Ok, I'm back. I'm not seeing, in this exchange, where he said most seniors want to opt out of Medicare. He is just saying that in order to opt out of Medicare, you have to give up your Social Security benefits.

He did say, in this part of the exchange:

MS. MADDOW: But do you really think that’s the problem…

MS. MADDOW: …that Medicare—that seniors hate Medicare and they want out?

"No, I didn’t say that. Most seniors—I was talking to my minister the other day. My minister says, “Dick, I’m so fortunate I’m in Medicare.” I said, “Bless you, my, my friend that you get to be in it if you choose to be so.” But if you give a government program and you let me choose to be in or choose to be out, that’s generosity. If you force me in, irrespective of my desires, that’s tyranny."

I think whoever wrote the piece was engaging in some wishful thinking when they said she pinned him down, and tried to emphasize how much he got pinned down on Medicaid by recounting Army's position on Global Warming?!?
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
29 months ago: I have diligently searched, and I can't find any Armey quotes saying "most seniors want out of Medicare". The closest I can find is that seniors don't want government fiddling about in Medicare to pay for overall healthcare reform.
29 months ago: Yes, elected official also take an oath.

US Constitution, Article 6:

http://www.senate.gov/artandhistory/history/common/briefing/Oath_Office.htm

I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter: So help me God.

Where does the Constitution give them the right to choose for the people? I believe this is a "Representative Republic". Those that do not understand that and wish to not follow the views of those they represent are not following the Constitution. Thereby breaking their oath.
JAK Gladney
JAK Gladney
Saint Albans, WV
29 months ago: "Where does the Constitution give them the right to choose for the people? I believe this is a "Representative Republic". Those that do not understand that and wish to not follow the views of those they represent are not following the Constitution. Thereby breaking their oath."

It's not so much what's in the constitution as it is what was left out. We've had this debate before, with the radical notion of instructing representatives scrapped. James Madison, commenting on the anti-Federalist wish to make the "instruction of representatives" part of the 1st Amendment:

"if we mean...that the people have a right to express and communicate their sentiments and wishes, we have provided for it already...If gentlemen mean to go further and to say that the people have a right to instruct their representatives in such a sense as that the delegates were obliged to conform to those instructions, the declaration is not true. Suppose they instruct a representative by his vote to violate the Constitution, is he at liberty to obey such instructions?"

In making congress a deliberative, independent body, the "representative" model is often elitist in practice: social elites make decisions for the less informed, poorly-educated majority. The information gap may have narrowed since Madison and later J.S. Mill, but the education gap has only widened.
29 months ago: outabox:
Right on.
Thank you for your effort.
It is appreciated.
Do you think anyone is paying attention?
29 months ago: social elites make decisions for the less informed, poorly-educated majority. The information gap may have narrowed since Madison and later J.S. Mill, but the education gap has only widened

If I'm reading you correctly. They can discount the wishes of those thay believe are uneducated or atleast write the opinions of the majority off as being uneducated or "less informed". Is there a clause in the constitution that quantifies decisions based on education?
JAK Gladney
JAK Gladney
Saint Albans, WV
29 months ago: It's hard to tell what Armey thinks, or what he thought he had illuminated with that halting anecdote about his minister. Is he trying to convince seniors, generally happy with Medicare, that they'd happier if they had the freedom to choose from a private AND a public plan? THAT'S THE CORE OF THE PUBLIC OPTION!!!! (not meaning to shout, but c'mon!)
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
29 months ago: Right, exactly. 100% correct. And perhaps his point was that, once Medicare got going, seniors not only had no choice, but were coerced into signing up for it with the threat of losing their Social Security.
What actions might be taken against those who want to opt out of a public option in the future? Many intelligent people really don't want to take that chance.
JAK Gladney
JAK Gladney
Saint Albans, WV
29 months ago: There's more than a hint of snobbery in most of our founding documents, Cypress. My God--Hamilton's essays in the Federalist Papers! Unapologetically elitist. James Otis' quote, "When the pot boils the scum will rise." The old distinction between democracy and "mobocracy". Even Jefferson acknowledged a "natural aristocracy" that demanded the deference of it's social inferiors. You could go on and on with quotes like this--ambivalence, the sad conclusion that democracy was inherently unstable and potentially violent.
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29 months ago: There is also an artificial aristocracy founded on wealth and birth, without either virtue or talents...The natural aristocracy I consider as the most precious gift of nature for the instruction, the trusts, and government of society.


The artificial aristocracy is a mischievous ingredient in government, and provision should be made to prevent it's ascendancy.

From what I have seen of Massachusets and Connecticut
myself, and still more from what I have heard, and the character given of the former by yourself, who know them so much better, there seems to be in those two states a traditionary reverence for certain families, which has rendered the offices of the government nearly hereditary in those families.
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29 months ago: These laws, drawn by myself, laid the axe to the root of Pseudo-aristocracy. And had another which I prepared been adopted by the legislature, our work would have been compleat.
It was a Bill for the more general diffusion of learning. This proposed to divide every county into wards of 5. or 6. miles square, like your townships; to establish in each ward a free school for reading, writing and common arithmetic; to provide for the annual selection of the best subjects from these schools who might recieve at the public expence a higher degree of education at a district
school; and from these district schools to select a certain number of the most promising subjects to be compleated at an University, where all the useful sciences should be taught. Worth and genius would
thus have been sought out from every condition of life, and compleatly prepared by education for defeating the competition of wealth and birth for public trusts.






From this writing it is clear that Jefferson did recognize an Natural Aristocracy, brought about by ability, "fortuitous breeding" was how he described it, unlike Hamilton, who thought social station was the indicator of Aristocracy.

To combat the Pseudo-aristocracy brought about by privilege, Jefferson tried to establish the first public education system, to thoroughly "lay axe" to the practice of the wealthy being the predominate force in government.
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29 months ago: I forgot in my haste to attribute the above posts to Thomas Jefferson, in his letter to

Furthermore, he states:

And such men may safely and advantageously reserve to themselves a wholsome controul over their public affairs, and a degree of freedom, which in the hands of the
Canaille of the cities of Europe, would be instantly perverted to the demolition and destruction of every thing public and private....

It suffices for us, if the moral and physical condition of our own citizens qualifies them to select the able and good for the direction of their government, with a recurrence of elections at such short periods as will enable them to displace an unfaithful servant
before the mischief he meditates may be irremediable.


More truth from the grave.

One can only hope and pray.

(and educate himself)
JAK Gladney
JAK Gladney
Saint Albans, WV
29 months ago: From what I have seen of Massachusets and Connecticut
myself, and still more from what I have heard, and the character given of the former by yourself, who know them so much better, there seems to be in those two states a traditionary reverence for certain families, which has rendered the offices of the government nearly hereditary in those families.

Another Jeffersonian gloss. That a Virginian--home of the Byrd, Carter, & Harrison dynasties--can write this, as though it were unique to New England, is stunning.

More later...
29 months ago: scotmanster, obviously you haven't read many of my posts or even my profile. Look me up and then insult me some more, if you have the balls.
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
29 months ago: scotmanster,

Hate to sound repetitive, but If you actually served in the military, you'd realize there's no prerequisite to be a right wing fundamentalist feigning patriotism. One merely had to solemnly swear to support and defend the Constitution; not defend economic theories.

I served in the military and I have a "mixed economic mindset" that's in sync with reality and not ideological hard case political or religious fantasy - for example, in the US:

- The government funded, built & controls most of the road networks.
- The government has a virtual monopoly on the provision of policing and firefighting.
- All American airports are government operated but airlines are private.
- The government heavily subsidies agriculture.
- The majority of pre-college education is government-provided and a large part of tertiary education is run by state governments.
- The government heavily subsidies agriculture.
- The government sets a minimum wage law.
- People can own their own businesses, but political leaders make policies concerning these.
- The government controls the mail system.
- Government laid the foundation of the Internet that you're using today to include the World Wide Web.

Now you can argue about whether or not something should be public or private sector, but don't pretend your purist economic or religious philosophy is connected to patriotism and serving in the military, which by the way, is a government enterprise.

As a sidenote, while military members have the right to vote for the candidate of their choice, servicemembers are prohibited from becoming a candidate for an elected office or participating directly in an election campaign for a particular candidate. The job of the military member is not to be a politico but to follow the orders of the elected politico's, agree or disagree. See:

http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/law/rights_of_military_mbrs.pdf
29 months ago: Ditto. Thanks mark.
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
29 months ago: ..I think Regean rolled over in his grave..

Reagan came in office with the national debt at $700 billion and when he left, it was $3 trillion. He definitely could talk the walk, but he didn't walk the talk.
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29 months ago: OK this has gone on long enough. Just so you know, I stole this.


"I love it when people throw out partial facts in hopes of making a point. But in this day and age, someone usually comes along to fill out the facts a bit better.
Do you remember when President Clinton was running for reelection in 1996? He was saying he was responsible for a 50 month economic boom. Well, Rush Limbaugh pointed out that a 50 month boom must have started during the Bush administration, since President Clinton had been in office about 43 months at the time. President Clinton changed it to a 43 month boom.
What is my point? It is perception and spin. Is your unemployment rate fact true? Yes. Do you bother to explain how it got that way and who was responsible? No. You imply President Reagan. You are wrong.
President Carter was elected President based on his use of the misery index. That is a number made by adding unemployment plus inflation. Why do that? To make a bigger number. We like both numbers low, so add them together and it sounds much worse.
When President Ford took office, he tried to improve the economy. He had a Democratic Congress against him. The misery index when he took office was 16.36. At the election of 1976, it had fallen to 12.68. So he was making progress. But Carter said that number was much too high.
What did Carter do? Well at the time of the 1980 election, it 20.15. The voters showed him the door, rightly so.

more....
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29 months ago: Why were these numbers going up? Because Carter could not get a handle on inflation. It was a whopping 12.61% when he was voted out. What did Reagan do? Started bringing the inflation rate down. When that happened, people began spending more for durable goods and unemployment started dropping. But it didn’t happen over night.
So you say unemployment was up to 10.83% in 1983. What was inflation? By December 1983, the inflation rate had plummeted to 3.83% and unemployment had fallen to just under 8%. You can’t fix unemployment without first fixing inflation. President Reagan knew that. So unemployment rose while he brought inflation under control.
What was the misery index when Reagan left office? 9.72, down from OVER 20! Inflation was 4.67% (anything under 5% is considered healthy) and unemployment 5.05%. That was better than he inherited from Carter, which was inflation of 12.61 and unemployment of 7.54 at the time of the 1980 election.
Let’s look at the deficit. I will give you two simple tasks to research, if you dare. You will see the Reagan tax cuts DOUBLED revenue before he left office. So why did the deficit go up? Because the House, which controls spending, saw more money coming in and figured out new ways to spend it. Look at baseline budgeting, if you dare.
Oh by the way, the House that spent all the new revenue AND MORE, was controlled by the Democrats. You failed to throw out that little tidbit of truth. Must have slipped your mind.
This is already too long, so I will not add to it much more. Suffice to say, you are great with half truths. Kudos to you. You belong in Washington, I think. Or maybe making films with Michael Moore.
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29 months ago: Facts are facts. The economic expansion of the 90’s began during the Bush administration. Clinton admitted it (for a while). How did the decline in the early 90’s begin? When Bush reneged on “read my lips, no new taxes”. The new taxes sent the economy down, but the recovery began during Bush’s term. Facts are facts. And don’t forget, it was CLINTON who said when the economic expansion started. Rush just caught him on it and he then changed his tune. Read Clinton’s campaign stump speeches. You will see CLINTON changed the dates, not Rush. Sorry, facts are facts.
It stayed robust until early in 2000. The downturn started WHILE CLINTON WAS STILL PRESIDENT. Facts are facts. Why did it stay strong during the 90’s? Because the Republicans in Congress wouldn’t let Hillary take over the medical industry and managed to keep spending in check. Keeping spending in check is something Congress hasn’t done in quite some time (both Republican and Democratically led, I might add). Nor did the Democratic House in the 80’s. Again, look up baseline budgeting. Get educated across the board, not the education you get from blogs.
As to the oil prices and inflation, that began during the Nixon administration (1973 and 1974 – look it up and you will see who the President was – facts are facts). Inflation was bad when Ford took over. Check the websites I posted, if you dare. You will see. Facts are facts. Ford was beginning to bring inflation down in the midst of the oil crisis you so conveniently put as starting in the Carter administration. Facts are facts. When Carter took over, his economic policies hurt business and caused inflation to go back the other way, too high.
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29 months ago: And you know what else? Sure I used Limbaugh as a source. He was right about it so I noted him as the source of my information. Where did you get yours from, hmmm?
By the way, I added another website for you. Unemployment was 7.8% in June of 1992. By the time Clinton was sworn in, the rate had dropped a half point. Those 6 months of economic job growth Clinton was touting as his great expansion until he realized those were attained under Bush budgets. Facts are facts.
Added: By the way, you still haven’t dealt with Congress spending all the extra revenue that came in when the Reagan tax cuts took effect. Will you? Or are you going to conveniently blow it off.
By the way, I was named a year before Fawn Hall came into the limelight. So no, it wasn’t me who worked with the Colonel. As a matter of fact, Reagan became President before I was born. How did I learn about how good he was? I have read and/or listened to Rush Limbaugh, Al Franken, Laura Ingraham, Michael Moore, Paul Johnson, Walter Williams, Alan Colmes, Sean Hannity, Dan Rather, Juan Williams, Christopher Hitchens, Ted Koppel. I am no mind-numbed robot. Peace. I am done here now. I doubt if I will even reply to your next addition, if there is one. If I am going to read someone from the left, I will go other than you.
29 months ago: How convenient. Bend, fold, wrap or break the inconvenient truth to suit your needs. Or just mislead. Michael Moore. Funny.
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29 months ago: The above was a reply to some of the same kind of rhetoric that I have been reading, and she did such a good job, I thought I would lift it, and let her do all the work, while I got the glory for finding it.

http://dengruo.info/200908/did-ronald-reagan-triple-the-national-debt/
29 months ago: OOTB, I'm not talking about you. I also love the "shoot the messenger" to kill the message approach. It usually backfires.
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
29 months ago: Bush Sr budgets? YGTBSM. The national debt under Carter was $914 billion. Under Reagan, it tripled and Bush Sr doubled the debt from $2.602 Trillion to $4.064 Trillion in four years. By contrast, Clinton only advanced the debt in 8 years to 5.6 Trillion.

Then Bush Jr comes in and once again doubles the debt to over 10 Trillion - just like daddy did! And I'm not going to cite pundit's biased websites. Let's try the Treasury's website and Historical Debt Outstanding by year list:

http://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/reports/pd/histdebt/histdebt.htm

You can have your own opinions and cite Limbaugh but the stats paint the real picture - the mantra of GOP Fiscal responsibility is lie of massive proportion.
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29 months ago: TCG
True, when that approach is seen for what it really is, it usually does just the opposite, and causes harm to detractors position. It has no more meaning than to just say "aw, baloney", and leaves them in the uncomfortable position of trying to back up an irrelevant or baseless claim with even more irrelevant/baseless statements.
29 months ago: What it the debt today? How did we leave that little tidbit out of the equation?
29 months ago: scotmanster, just so you know where I really stand, my comments were about the health care system, not our national government and the way we govern the country. There are a lot of socialized programs doing a damn fine job under our representative type of government. I have made no statement in support of changeing that and have risked my life more than once to protect our country and it's present form of government.

We already have socialized medicine for part of the population and it hasn't tried to take control of our government, nor could it so I'm not too worried about the expansion to cover others with no health care. I am concerend that it could be overextended or that there could be so much fraud and outright theft that it will become prohibitively expensive to offer the same level of care that I receive, but that is where checks and balances come in, that and honest people opening their mouths and saying something.

I too fear that letting an idea get its foot in the door will open us up to a stampede of like thoughts, but usually they have to do with religious fanatics getting laws passed to limit my freedoms.
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29 months ago: http://uspolitics.about.com/od/usgovernment/l/bl_party_division_2.htm

If you will notice, the last half of Reagan's stay in office was dominated by a Democratically controlled House and Senate. All of Bush Sr.'s stay was a Democrat House and Senate.
Luckily for Clinton's legacy, most of his stay was dominated by a Republican House and Senate. And you say Clinton held the deficit down? Hmmmm.
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
29 months ago: TCG, I am foursquare against Obama following Reagan, Bush Sr or Bush Jr's disgraceful example in doubling or tripling the national debt. Where was the howls of righteous indignation from the the hard-line conservatives when Reagan and Bush 1 & 2 were doing the same thing? Pot? Kettle?
29 months ago: Nice little inconvenient truth. I was wondering if they would state it before you did.
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29 months ago: six,
What laws have been passed in your lifetime by religious fanatics to limit your freedoms?
29 months ago: Mark, your smarter than that! Congress spends the money.
I guess the President could "shut the Country down". That is their only option.
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
29 months ago: six, so now we'll excuse the President and blame the Congress. Okay, from 1995 to 2005 the Republicans had a near lock on the both chambers. Debt in 1995; 4.9T and debit in 2005: 7.9T. Yep, there's that GOP fiscal responsibility.

By the way, good job on finding that chart; I've been looking for something like that.
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29 months ago: And by 2011, it'll be over 100% of our GDP. December of 2012 is looking closer and closer.
29 months ago: I ask again what is the debt today? Are you going to answer it with the projected debt or the actual debt?

What was it in 2006?
What was it in 2008?
What is it today?
What will it be in 2012?

Since your so good finding facts please feel free to cut and paste those questions along with the answers.

29 months ago: Dang OOTB. You beat me to it.
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
29 months ago: I gave you the actual historical national debt figures previously - you can look at the treasury website yourself. As for 2012, that's the future but if we believe Glenn Beck, it might not make any difference. Just look at his crystal ball of insane lunacy:

"Do you know the Mayan calendar ends in 2012. You and I know that we are facing dark times. You and I believe that -- I don't mean to put words in your mouth but I believe you believe this, that we are possibly facing the latter days, that we are facing out-and-out evil on the other side of the Earth that is coming to destroy us."

The Mayan calender? Can you say wack-a-loon?

By the way, in the same article where he's talking to James Dobson, Mr Family Values himself says he can't vote for John McCain, and now y'all are honked that Obama is in. Amazing!

http://www.glennbeck.com/content/articles/article/196/5522/
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29 months ago: More of the quote, and put a lot of mock incredulity
in the part you quoted:



"Now let me speak to you. Let me just, may we take a walk down one of the branches of the freak trees that, where you and I agree. We were joking off the air here. Do you know the Mayan calendar ends in 2012. You and I know that we are facing dark times."
29 months ago: I knew it! If we believe Glenn Beck and the Mayans.
Why didn't you include "half past human" and the webbot program? Did you forget a few others? How about the Galatic plane? Magnetic field shift? Solar flares? Global cooling? Did I forget anything? Yes.
Too funny.

I suggest you open your eyes and see what is happening around you today.
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29 months ago:
What Dobson was saying was that in conscience he could not vote for a man he felt was simply the lesser of two evils, when each to him was equally evil. McCain's stand on a lot of issues went against Dobson's values, and that he couldn't pull the lever for a man like McCain, regardless of party.

I figured that would get him high marks, to give up his vote to avoid going against his principles.
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
29 months ago: OOTB,

Here's more of Beck's doomsday nuttery being skewered by Colbert (the Doom Bunker!)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/03/05/icolbert-reporti-takes-gl_n_172088.html
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
29 months ago: OOTB,

Now even without a comedic skewering, watch as Beck nuts out on his whiteboard. He's completely lost it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0OUXkZO8vE
29 months ago: Colbert is the Leftist rendition of Beck. This would be the actual link. But, you already knew that.
http://projectcamelot.org/norway.html
Project Camelot in Norway? Why Norway?
You guys are too funny.

29 months ago: OOTB, seems like Mark is obsessed with Glenn Beck. I might on a good day maybe listen to him for 30 minutes or so. Mark must listen to it twice then have time to tune in to his show on a daily basis. It might be a new form of mental disorder. PGBD. Profound Glenn Beck Disorder.

Geeze.?
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29 months ago: scotmanster

I agree anything to get the costs down would be a good thing, except letting the government take over.

And by the way, I see that our government is now investing billions of our tax dollars in foreign oil exploration and drilling, coincidentally, in a country that George Soros just happens to own 5.6 million shares of stock in that country's state run oil program. I guess when the crude comes in our government can compete with private oil companies, also.

So basically, they can use our own money to put us out of work.
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29 months ago: TCG
I'm guessing he gets most of his Beckisms from youtube and Colbert. One thing I did notice from the youtube video: Beck misspelled "oligarchy". I'm telling you, the dude's gonna crack up.

Huffington Post? puhleeeeeeeeeeeeeese!


29 months ago: scotmanster, accepted. We will clash again I'm sure but that is the way of discussion over many topics, it will all be in the effort to learn and share ideas so no harm done and none intended.

The next week will be very busy for me, have to help prepare for my brother's return from the hospital, they plan to kick him out on the 4th. He has no short term memory and not much of one from before, doesn't know all of us in the family anymore, also has other control issues so must be supervised 24/7, we are hoping to find a long term care (LTC) home for him but when a person has no insurance, no income and no property, they are at the mercy of medicaid's rules. He was unemployed when he fell and busted his head. Spent 18 days in ICU and another three weeks in a hospital room while they waited for him to wake up and then get well enough to move to rehab. Rehab has him now and they think he will be able to leave on the 4th, to another place with 24/7 supervision. He must wear a back brace if out of bed and when out of bed he wanders around and gets lost because he has no memory.

At this time my sister has volunterred to look after him at her place so must help her "Charlie" proof it and add some things that he will need. If we can find a LTC home, it will be great but the odds are not good.

It is a mess that I don't wish on anyone so be careful out there and don't take chances that could result in your falling or getting hit on the head. It could really knock the brains right out of you.
29 months ago: OOTB, (You asked what laws were passed in my lifetime.) I probably phrased that wrong but once said I guess it has to stand. I oppose any law that is based on religious dogma or religious belief or on particular religions views that it is wrong.

Alcohol. Every time a law about alcohol comes up for a vote that lifts restrictions on alcohol sales, where, when to whom, the religious fanatic’s band together to make sure it is voted in or continued or its overall reach is increased. The national drinking age limit was pushed to 21 in 1984 but before then many states had already raised it due to internal pressures from religious groups and other “do-gooders”. Not a single one of those groups has banded together to support moving the draft age to 21, nor do they care that an 18 year old adult can not rent a car nor a hotel room (in most areas). That happened in my lifetime.

Multiple attempts by citizens in counties within my state to get enough signatures on a petition to get a vote for wet or dry countywide have been opposed by religious groups, many that are not even within that county. When they do get the signatures those same religious groups sue to have many of the names voided or to delay the process until it is too late to get the vote on the ballot, requiring another round of signature gathering. Other citizens in other counties won’t even try because the religious groups have already stated that they will oppose it.
29 months ago: Abortion. Touchy subject. This discussion is not about right or wrong, for or against, so don’t bother jumping down my throat about it and how wrong you think it is and how wrong you think I am for discussing this aspect of it. Religious groups in my state have driven out women’s health clinics that only TALKED about the option. Our former governor denied every request for funds for authorized abortions under federal and state law, he had the power and due to his fanatical religious leanings, he abused it to prevent funding any abortions during all of his terms, all of them, no matter what the reason. Those are now welfare babies because their mothers refuse to get and keep a job because those babies entitle them to free money if they do not have a job. Where are all those religious fanatics now? They didn’t adopt a single one of those babies, nor do they care if they are living in poverty or worse.

Abortion was legalized in my lifetime over the objections of these groups. Since then they have worked tirelessly to get it outlawed again. If they can’t get it outlawed they do everything they can to get it restricted, sometimes so many restrictions are placed on it that it might as well be outlawed. So many new laws restricting abortion in so many different states and nearly all of them are pushed for and supported by religious groups over the objections of doctors and women’s health groups and those that want that choice.

29 months ago: Marriage. Recently laws were enacted all over the place that state that marriage is only between a man and a women, religious groups are pushing these laws because they feel threatened by anything that does not fit into their narrow view. What happened to individual rights? They don’t exist unless you fit the religious fanatic’s narrow view of who should be allowed to exercise or have those individual rights.

Sex offenders. Now this one will really raise some eyebrows. I’m going to use a story to get my thoughts across so bear with me. Say you were a person who was single and had sex with a member of the opposite sex. You thought the person was as old as you and you are 18 at the time. Next thing you know you are in jail on a sex charge, sex with a minor, brought against you by the other person’s parents or anyone who knows you did it. You are doomed. You can’t plead innocent because you did it and pleading guilty is not going to make it go away. Now you have a record as a sex offender. It never goes away. Permanent until you die. Perfectly innocent except the other person wasn’t of legal age, even though they looked it, acted it and made you think they were AND THE OTHER PERSON PARENTS APPROVED OF IT. Happens all the time.
29 months ago: Religious groups push hard to get laws enacted to ensure that “crimes” like this are punished as hard as possible. Many, many, many of them have been enacted in my lifetime. Thousands of citizens are out there with this hanging over their heads. Most paid for their crime with jail time but will forever be punished by the stigma of something they did in their youth and many, many of them were doing the same thing millions of couples have done for centuries, the only difference is one of their parents (or anyone) decided that they would protect their child from this person or as it usually is, get back at them for some perceived slight. These type offenders are lumped in with the rapists and pedophiles and other sexual deviants because the religious fanatics cried and hollered and whined and cajoled and threatened politicians to make the laws stiffer and broader to punish those who didn’t consider sex a sacred, religious bodily function reserved only for married “to each other” people.

Can all of you state for a fact that you did not have sex with a person who was not of legal age? You are still under the gun, there is no statute of limitations on this type crime in some states, seven to ten years in others and it doesn’t matter if it was consensual or not, the state does not care. Watch out, it might be your husband or wife who brings the charges against you or your next door neighbor, marriage to that person does not absolve you of the initial crime.

Now I’m going to get blasted for expressing such a negative opinion of the sex laws that the religious fanatics worked so hard to get on the books and keep on the books. So be it.

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29 months ago: sixholdens,
So much to talk about, so little time, so I will try to make this brief.
I'm guessing no one else jumped on this because almost every one knows that liberal organizations are far more adept at derailing the inebriation express. It is quite convenient for them to let the religious organizations take the fall, because they prefer to operate in the shadows, establishing front groups, and fake grassroots organizations, to impinge upon your God-given right to imbibe.

The undisputed leader of these organizations is the Howard Wood Johnson Foundation, founded by HWJ II, of Johnson and Johnson Soap Co. fame, which has been reported to have spent billions, yes billions, of dollars to try and halt the use of alcohol. The foundation has given more than $35 million to MADD, which has evolved from an anti-dunk driving campaign into an anti-alcohol crusade.

Here is a small sampling of "grassroots" groups sponsored by RWJF.
Pennsylvanians Against Underage Drinking
Texans Standing Tall - A Statewide Coalition to Reduce Underage Drinking
Louisiana Alliance to Prevent Underage Drinking
Oregon Coalition to Reduce Underage Drinking
Missouri’s Youth/Adult Alliance Against Underage Drinking
National Capital Coalition to Prevent Underage Drinking
Minnesota Join Together Coalition to Reduce Underage Drinking
Georgia Alcohol Policy Partnership
Puerto Rico Coalition to Reduce Underage Drinking
Indiana Coalition to Reduce Underage Drinking
Partners to Reduce Underage Drinking in North Carolina
Connecticut Coalition to Stop Underage Drinking
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29 months ago: # The Rand Corporation, whose studies in support of roadblocks and limiting access to alcohol are funded by RWJF.

# Columbia University's National Center on Addiction and Substance Abuse (CASA)has received more than $35 million from RWJF since 1991.

# The Center on Alcohol Marketing and Youth (CAMY), which exists for one purpose: to accuse the alcohol industry of "targeting" underage drinkers. RWJF established CAMY with a $5 million grant.

# The Department of Education's Higher Education Center for Alcohol and Other Drug Prevention (HEC), which argues for "changing people's knowledge, attitudes, and behavioral intentions regarding alcohol use." It also supports "reducing alcohol availability" and "reducing alcohol promotion and marketing." HEC--an agency of the federal government--receives "supplemental funding" from RWJF.

# Ralph Hingson, MADD's Vice President of Public Policy, published a deeply flawed report claiming that alcohol causes 1,400 deaths among college students each year. Hingson received a $300,000 fellowship from RWJF.

# Jim Gogek, an editorial writer for the San Diego Union-Tribune, who wrote an op-ed in The New York Times accusing the Governors of Maryland, New York and New Jersey of being bought and paid for by the alcohol industry because they oppose even higher "sin" taxes. Gogek is paid $25,000 a year by RWJF.

# Richard Yoast, who wrote a report called "The Alcohol Industry: Partner or Foe?" that argues there are two kinds of people: those who abuse alcohol, and those who abstain. The former shouldn't have access to it, the argument goes, and the latter won't care if you take it away. Yoast heads the American Medical Association's Office of Alcohol and Other Drug Abuse. RWJF has given nearly $6 million to Yoast's office since 1995.

more..
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29 months ago: The foundation wishes, as a long term goal, to have alcohol added to the ever growing list of classified substances, to be regulated by the FDA.

RWJF is also one of the leading advocates for national health care reform.

http://www.rwjf.org/healthreform/product.jsp?id=47860
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Out Of The Box
 Moderator
29 months ago: Two quotes from my favorite comedian and philosopher, George Carlin, (rest in peace) spring to mind.

1.)“If crime fighters fight crime and firefighters fight fire, what do freedom fighters fight?”



2.)"Narcissistic self-indulgent people with a simple philosophy! "Gimme that, it's mine!"
These people were given everything! Everything was handed to them! And they took it all! Took it all!

They're cold bloodless people! It's in their slogans, it's in their rhetoric!
"No pain, no gain!"
"Just do it!"
"Life is short!"
"Play hard!"
"S**t happens!"
"Deal with it!"
"Get a life!"

These people went from "Do your own thing!" to "Just say no!"
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
29 months ago: Out of the Box,

It's went a long way from the original topic, but I agree with you on Alcohol. In fact, I believe that Alcohol and Marijuana should be controlled in the same manner; decriminalized but licensed to users who would not only pay a 500% tax on purchases but would be required to pay higher insurance premiums (auto, health, life, etc) for the duration of their license plus 5 years or the rest of their life if they never quit.

In addition, the manufacturers would be taxed and required to establish a superfund to pay any lawsuits related to the destructive nature of these drugs when they're abused or used negligently. The superfund would also be used to pay for PSAs to discourage children from using and to fund rehabilitation of those who become non-functional due to use of alcohol or marijuana.

Use of hard drugs would still be a criminal offense but vice prison time, the offendants would ordinarily be heavily fined and they would also be automatically placed into a higher bracket for the aforementioned insurance premiums. If they're indigent, the aforementioned superfund would be used to pay for any damages caused by hard drug users as well as to pay for their rehabilitation.

Just my thoughts on that subject.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
29 months ago: On the other issues you mentioned, this time I will really be brief.

On Abortion.
There will probably always be a tug of war over this one, and not just between the religious and non-religious factions. Many religious people favor a woman's right to choose whether or not to carry a baby to term, and many non-religious people are opposed to it, due to their belief that a human life starts in the womb.

When you really think about it, the opposition to abortion is not really passing new laws, it is rolling back some of the permissive laws that have been foisted on their community legalizing all sorts of abortion practices. This give and take is likely to continue until people just don't care anymore.

Same sex marriage.

Again, these really aren't new laws, per se, but a reinforcement of existing law that is being challenged in a new way. Like I said above, religion is not the deciding factor in whether you are pro or against gay marriage. I know plenty of people that are against it, that never go to church. Likewise, I know many who profess to be Christian who believe it is the individual's choice of whom they wish to marry.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
29 months ago: Markbyrn
I think you may be onto something there, except with the exorbitant taxes, and penalties, the black market potential would be huge. Since both are very easy to produce, using ingredients, (and seeds) that are very available, the money realized would just be plowed right back into the g-man scenario we experienced during prohibition. Right now, with the added taxes being levied on cigarettes, bootleg interstate cigarettes and hijackings are at an all time high.

http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Nearly_three_million_contraband_cigarettes_seized_by_Canadian_and_U.S._authorities

"Bootleggers, nicknamed the $5 man, are the new entrepreneurs when taxed cigarettes sell for over US$10 a pack and nearly $100 a carton in some places in the U.S."

I agree that legalizing, regulating and taxing many of our current controlled substances would go a long way to ease the financial burden, in the penal system, the judicial system, the enforcement system, and the national coffers. i just don't think super high taxes and other financial penalties would be the way to go. You can't legislate human nature.


"It's went a long way from the original topic,"

I thought I tied it in nicely with the comment:

"The foundation wishes, as a long term goal, to have alcohol added to the ever growing list of classified substances, to be regulated by the FDA.

RWJF is also one of the leading advocates for national health care reform."

http://www.rwjf.org/healthreform/product.jsp?id=47860
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
29 months ago: Out of the Box
...many non-religious people are opposed to it...

I beg to differ; I see no activist anti-abortion effort by groups of non-theists or even the religious outside of mainly conservative Christian evangelicals and traditional Catholics. There may be individual secular humanists, feminists, and isolated groups that oppose abortion but most typically believe that the woman is the final decision maker in her freedom to make this choice concerning her body & her beliefs.

In my own experience, I have yet to meet anybody who supports reversing Roe V Wade and criminalizing abortions except for fundamentalist Christians and traditional Catholics, and it's mainly fundamentalist Christians.

Now I did find a website called Atheists against Abortion (authored by a self-professed conservative Republican) and to quote him, "I fear that I'm the only nonreligious person who opposes the genocide of abortion used as a birth control substitute. Accordingly, I have created this web site as a virtual rallying point and clearinghouse for all atheists, agnostics, and other "godless" people who call themselves "pro-life."

Well guess what? The website is dead and no longer maintained.

http://www.godlessprolifers.org/home.html
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
29 months ago: ...the black market potential would be huge...

the black market only comes into serious play when there's no realisitc opportunity for profit. Otherwise the inclination would be to pay the taxes as opposed to having all your assets seized and liquidated. Yes, there are bootleggers of Cigarettes for example, but it's a small fraction of the legal market and the legal manufacturers have a strong impetus to help root out the black marketers for obvious reasons.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
29 months ago: http://www.compleatheretic.com/links/prolife.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pro-life_movement

"Attachment to a pro-life position is often but not exclusively connected to religious beliefs about the sanctity of life (see also Culture of Life). Exclusively secular-humanist positions against abortion tend to be a minority viewpoint among pro-life advocates.

While this group is a distinct minority, they are a growing and burgeoning movement, and seek to put new meaning into the phrase "pro-life""

http://blog.beliefnet.com/progressiverevival/2008/08/religion-and-the-dnc-potent-an.html
(how did that one get in there?)

http://stairs.umd.edu/140/marquis.html A non-religious argument against abortion, worth a look, at least.



Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
29 months ago: "the black market only comes into serious play when there's no realisitc opportunity for profit."

The profit potential for customers and black market vendors alike would be huge. When you are talking about a 500% tax on a $20.00 bottle of hooch, people would be standing in line around the block to save that $100 tax. Believe me, I've known some drinkers in my day, and they aren't going to just quit drinking because someone made it unaffordable for them. It's too easy to make your own, or to make enough to sell on the D.L.


Even with heavy fines and jail times associated with digital rights piracy, the entertainment industry has taken a hit because people will pay five bucks for a pirated movie and download MP3 files from the internet, knowing there is a very good chance of getting caught.
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
29 months ago: Out of the Box,
Excellent, you cited a paper from a professor of Philosophy who writes supportively about a non-religous argument against abortion as penned by Don Marquis. The problem is the Professor in this case, Allen Stairs also wrote a book called A Thinker's Guide to the Philosophy of Religion. Topics include Concepts of God, The Design Argument, The Cosmological Argument, The Ontological Argument, Miracles, etc. This is same type of Christian Apologist pablum that's used for 'intellectual' proseyzling. So essentially it's a religionist hiding under a secular umbrella as he presents non-religious anti-abortion arguments.

It's not a question of finding non-religious that aren't supporters of abortion, but where are the non-religious groups that are working to overturn Roe v Wade and criminalize abortion?

http://www.pearsonhighered.com/educator/academic/product/0,,0321243757,00%2ben-USS_01DBC.html
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
29 months ago: Out of the Box
...the entertainment industry has taken a hit because people will pay five bucks for a pirated movie...

Yes because it's exceptionally easy to download digital content but even in that case, they're still making money.

Since you said that you agree that legalizing, regulating and taxing many of our current controlled substances would go a long way to ease the financial burden but didn't think super high taxes would work, it appears were in essential agreement except on the percentages.

I'm not hard and fast on the exact percentages; I just threw them out as examples. The main imperative is to ensure that people who make and use recreational drugs (inc. intoxicating beverages) pay the complete tab for for the inevitable downside. That's in additional to individual criminal liability if the downside includes crimes of violence.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
29 months ago: Then we are in complete agreement. Provided, of course, that we don't limit it to intoxicating substance users. Rugby should be taxed, as it always leads to violence and injury, promiscuous sex and adultery often leads to dangerous and often criminal activity... you see where I'm going with this.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
29 months ago: But yes, I'm in agreement with you on the basics, please pardon my rectalization of the previous post.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
29 months ago: But yes, I'm in agreement with you on the basics, please pardon my rectalization of the previous post.
4 months ago:
"Now back in 1927 an American socialist, Norman Thomas, six times candidate for president on the Socialist Party ticket


Hello every body
I now my time is different from yours.
And you also talk about America, and it seems to me it look like America for American, but I like this top so much..
At all I am Music Teacher….
But I think I can't jump to the large title utile you anther me
Have you public schools for your children?
Have you public hospitals?.
If the anthers is yes .
Which one you preferred your children to go?
And why?
If your anthers are … prevent sector
At that time, you will recognize that
Who will going to pay for that , USA!
From where they can't.
For me I think you don't need this social insurance or however what you call , you need socialist party first to reconstructed you public sector .
Out of the boxI miss you Man
So get out of your box