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So what happens after the debt crisis?

Posted 9 months ago|48 comments|472 views
Written by
Colorado
Westcliffe, CO
Now that the current debt crisis is over what happens next with the budget debate. I would suspect that most citizens anticipate a return to the status quo, gridlock of the political process. However, with an election next year I would suspect that the current debt issues to remain at the fore-front of political debates.

This could be an opportunity for both political parties to reconcile what role the government should be playing in the United States. It is important to remember that the shared ideology of all citizens in the United States is the belief in personal liberty for all individuals. Ideally the role of government should be to protect the liberties of citizens and to insure that all people have equal access to liberty. This concept was the pinnacle of our founding fathers belief as they drafted the constitution. It was how the new government would protect and promote personal liberty that sparked the fieriest debates. The debate has never subsided and the United States once again is in embroiled in a battle over the role of government.

What needs to be understood is that both sides of the debate have very valid points but lost in the argument is the concept of how government protects liberty. It is clear that the government has grown far too large to be effective in our society. With all of the laws to promote one group over another through tax breaks or business deals and ignoring the main mission of government has lead to an inefficient system buried in debt. Clearly our government goes past its effective parameters but that does not mean every part of the government needs to be cut. This seems to be were misunderstanding and anger is most prevalent in our politics.

Conservatives want less government but promote a large military. The military has a roll to protect the United States but it spends more that the top 10 militaries of the world combined. It would seem logical that we could easily cut military spending without exposing the United States to a foreign aggressor. Democrats want more social insurance programs such as healthcare and social security. The problem is that often these programs go past insurance for citizens to promising standards of living and taking away citizens voice in the purchasing process of healthcare.

These are just two examples of the current arguments in Washington. Both revolve around the role of the government service and its size. The government has a role in defense, social security and healthcare but few will disagree that all of them have gone past protecting the personal liberty of citizens and ensuring they have access to that liberty. It is in the excess of its role that the government becomes bloated and unwieldy. Focusing on the role of each government service and if it is overstepping its boundary is critical to personal liberty and access to that liberty.

As the new election process starts let us hope that the discussion revolves around the role of government and how to find a way to streamline that role and cut the excess. The issue of debt and spending will be resolved as a byproduct of conscience evaluation of our government services.
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COMMENTS
9 months ago: There is a saying...

"If you do what you've always done...
you'll always get, what you've always got!"
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
9 months ago: Well, if we would actually end the wars we have no business being in we could probably have a defense budget that isn't more than the rest of the world combined. That would certainly help. Unfortunately what is going to happen is the same thing that has been happening. Republicans are going to do nothing, Democrats are going to do nothing, the Tea Party people will continue to try and make Obama look bad at every turn, Obama will continue to talk about all these ideas and not do anything...the 12 person committee will probably try and kill each other by the time its done. Partisanship has gotten so ridiculous that endless gridlock is likely going to be the only situation we have in Washington for a long time. They will continue to fight over "what the American people want"...but the funny part is that none of them actually care or even have any idea what that is...nor any way to get it done.

The value of the dollar will likely fall as other countries lose confidence in Washington's ability to compromise when it comes to world economies. Inflation will likely be up over the next 12 months. Stock markets will likely fall as consumer confidence drops and unemployment rises. AAA Credit rating will likely be gone by the end of the year. Gas prices will likely jump again. There is a word for what I am describing and I predict that it will happen again over the next 12 months: Recession.
Colorado
Colorado
Westcliffe, CO
9 months ago: Or...

We have never gotten out of recession and the rise in the stock market is from printing money...
9 months ago: Say it ain't so... Obama and Biden promised that we have now had 2 summers of economic recovery. When again did they say the recession ended? Please post the date with attachments Hate to be the bearer of bad news. Nobody else has the guts to say it. We are in a Depression. Have been since the Obama Healthcare plan started effecting the markets. No? What was the Obama job growth pre-Obamacare and post-Obamacare?
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
9 months ago: Rahm Emanuel stated before , "You never want a serious crisis to go to waste — and what I mean by that is an opportunity to do things that you didn't think you could do before."

What was achieved this time around? The formation of the 12 member Super Committee, reducing the circle of power by a factor of at least 50, and restricting the representative process at the same time. Even the once mighty Nancy Pelosi saluted and planted her toes firmly on the Party line, though clearly opposed to the budget bill, and guaranteed to deliver up the precise number of Democratic votes to pass the bill, and not one vote more, just as she was told to do.

Colorado
Colorado
Westcliffe, CO
9 months ago: Nothing was done, but I think the real crisis is to come in the upcoming election. I will be optimistic for now, but ready for the worst.
9 months ago: Must not have caught the markets during the last two days. You know. Obamas' bail-out buddies. It tanked upon passage and signing of this "Big Lie".
Colorado
Colorado
Westcliffe, CO
9 months ago: 1. I work in a brokerage house so I know what the markets did.

2.The bill passed, the debt crisis regarding raising the debt ceiling is over.

3. But the markets have decided that simply getting more debt is not a solution to the economic picture. So as I said in the 1st paragraph, this issue will remain in the fore-front of politics.

9 months ago: Yeah well... like I said... nobody is happy from "Main St" to "BFA" with this political promotion. Mostly "BFA".
9 months ago: Can't find the model for the current application of "Public" market feelings? Can you?

Please, we need something more than I'm "Educated and work for a Broker".

Uh? Obama is "Educated" but can't find his rear end without a funnel.

You guys don't think this is about to be fun? Give it a few months.

Not Tea'd off yet?
Colorado
Colorado
Westcliffe, CO
9 months ago: I am confused what your stating here.

What is the "model for the current application"?

I said I work for a broker, I did not give a justification based on my education.

I am not against democrates or republicans. Just talking about the debt crisis.


Instead of your little comments how about you define what the role of government should be in a post? than the rest of us could finally understand were you stand? We might have more common gound than you know.
9 months ago: Little comments? Some little comments speak volumes. Confused?

What did you do today "Mr. Broker" to protect all of those little peoples 401Ks?

Did you sell for a commission?
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
9 months ago: Are you literally incapable of making a comment based on merits alone?
Colorado
Colorado
Westcliffe, CO
9 months ago: As a discount brokrage we sell for a fix commision which can often be free depending on the security traded.

As employees we do not work on a commission and we are not allowed to give buy or sell advise, the accounts are run by the customers.

And we incourage clients to educate themselves and we help that education proccess when ever they need it. Do not group me with goldman sacs.

Plus, whats your view on the role of government? I am really interested to read your post because you have yet to contribute meaningfuly to this post. Instead you attack my proffession without knowing what I do and who I am.

So I will not attack you, I will keep asking you to state what you believe so that you could add to the discussion in a manner that i might learn somthing from your insight.
9 months ago: Pefect.

It remains over your head.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
9 months ago: Over my head?

You still don't seem to know the difference between liberal and Liberal.

Every time the debt ceiling has been raised it has been higher than it had ever been...that's sorta the point of raising the CEILING.

By historical definition ALL Republicans are liberals...and Democrats (while potentially liberal) are all Liberal. If you don't understand this simple concept then I suggest you turn off FoxNews and read a book.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
9 months ago: He meant "increased the debt by more than ever before." (paraphrased) But I'm sure you knew that. And he seemed quite clear when he stated that the liberals (capitalization not necessary) in the Republican Party would most likely be out on their cans after the next election. Yes, the neo-cons have done a number on the Republican party, and most of the conservative values were tossed out when those ex-Democrats infiltrated. But it would seem as though a purification of the GOP is under way.

Ron Paul has been a long time critic of the neoconservative movement as an attack on freedom and the U.S. Constitution, including an extensive speech on the House floor addressing neoconservative roots and how neoconservatism is neither new nor conservative.

http://videosift.com/video/Ron-Paul-publ...
Colorado
Colorado
Westcliffe, CO
9 months ago: I Love Ron Paul, big supporter.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
9 months ago: Liberal and liberal are not interchangable when discussing a political position.

The Liberal Republicans may be out...the liberal (Tea Party) will have a good shot (according to his opinion)
9 months ago: Merits? Like the merits of Wall Street Brokers that make money even when their "Clients" lose money? Do you know the difference between a "Client" and a customer? It's called "FIDUCIARY RESPONSIBILITY".

You want to argue those legal definitions?

http://www.efmoody.com/arbitration/fiduc...

Just like all of you have forgotten that your beloved government has a "FIDUCIARY RESPONSIBILITY" to us since it is our money that they spend.

TEA that truth.

Comments RED?
9 months ago: Go figure... "Dow down more than 400 points as market plunge continues"...

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/money_co...
9 months ago: Colorado.

I forgot. Are you still saying you are not a liberal/socialist/statist?

Don't forget, "Liberal" is synonomous with "Democrat" and (obviously) many "Republicans".

If you are denying you are a liberal, how can you reconcile your first statement: "Now that the current debt crisis is over" with the facts.

They just increased the United States' debt more that they have ever have in all human history.

Pardon me while I fix my wedgie.

I understand there will no reconciliation next fall 2012.

NADA.

There will be more liberals in the Republican party on their way to lobbying school when they are likewise booted out. Along with Obama.


Colorado
Colorado
Westcliffe, CO
9 months ago: You are right, I should have defined the debt crises being over as the raising of the debt ceiling being over. I should have defined that a little better.

That said, I do not think the debate about debt will be over and will be the center of attention in the coming year. So I agree with you, its far from over.

So instead of the name calling the point of this post was to start trying to find a solution which has to involve defining the role government should play in our nation.

For example, Ron Paul believes government services have a role in a liberty based society. So I want you redstate to stop detracting from the conversation and list the role you think government should play. I will be putting up a post in a few days so that this great site can have a meaningful conversation about the role of government. If you cannot at least define the role of government in your own words than it is a true sign to me that you just like to say your right and really have no idea what your talking about.

PS

You will notice I did not attack you personally by calling you a commie, nazi, conservative, liberal or anything else. In fact I have yet to find out what you believe. So if you could be so kind to stop stereotyping authors on this site my respect for your work will increase.
9 months ago: First, as you define it, I perceive no "debt crisis" whatsoever. Obama lied when he said August 2 was deadline.

The US would never default. It would be an impeachable offense. US debts would be paid, Social Security and veterans would be paid, but ACORN, the Unions, etc. would not be paid.

That is no "debt crisis"

What name calling?

You are either a liberal/socialist/statist or not. What name calling? Belly up to the bar man and admit it man.

(Does "detracting from the conversation" mean you don't agree with me? I honestly have no idea what your talking about here. You are either a liberal or you are not. There is no such thing as a squishy, spineless in between moderate.)

Stereotyping? How many rants or raves have you posted here over the years? It is obvious Colorado you picture yourself as taking the high road and not picking sides immediately. You consider yourself smart and you delay taking a position on a topic until you have heard both sides of an issue. (Tell me when I am wrong.) That is a moderate. What I have described is the opposite of a conservative. Conservatives live by and think and react to any and everything according to basic principals of human liberty and free will. PERIOD. Therefore, you are either a conservative or you are not. There is no deliberate mud slinging in such a debate. If you choose to feel offended when you have to face up to being a liberal, that is your problem.

The solution is a balanced budget amendment and more tea partiers in Washington D.C. Then other solutions will follow, like hitting the delete key on the EPA, the Department of Education, the department of ........... and passing the Fair Tax...and..........

It is common sense.

Your question has an easy answer.

(Are you paying attention?)

Government is necessary (and it is necessary) for situations where you need to raise large amounts of cash. In my limited mind, that includes our national defense and space exploration (which go hand in hand.)

Period.

There is no need for the government to have EPA, FTC, .................

If the market needs regulation, the market can regulate.

Everything else is either provided BY YOURSELF or at the local or state levels.

Government should be a limited, necessary evil.
9 months ago: No EPA? Sure you're correct as always. Who needs CLEAN AIR to breathe or CLEAN WATER to drink? I guess you don't, the rest of us however do.

No Schools? Sure why get an education when you can learn everything you need to know from The Dukes of Hazzard.

9 months ago: Daisy Duke was "the Bomb" even if she was only half German.
9 months ago: What's next? The "Bandit" didn't drive a load of Coors from Colorado across state lines? Sheriff Buford T. Justice is not real?
Colorado
Colorado
Westcliffe, CO
9 months ago: Thank you.

We finally agree and I understand your position on things. I consider myself a true student of personal liberty, it is the value I hold above everything. I would not call myself conservative, liberal or moderate because those are ideals that do not fully focus on personal liberty.

I want our federal, state and local government to protect and provided personal liberty at every level. Every government service has to fall in those lines and if it crosses personal liberty than it needs to be cut back to its base function.

That includes military, social security, medicare, and so many other useless and overdrawn government programs. However, I dont believe we can hit the "delete button." Like it or not people depend on many programs, they need a warning and a clear timeline of cutting of government programs. Hospitals need time to adjust, some banks will go bankrupt but if the cutting process is done correctly it will better all people of our nation.

Now, I am also going to include one other area, corporations. Big corporations are no better than big government, in fact, they are big because they have so much influence in government. State and local business need to be the focus of our nation if we want a robust society steeped in the ideals of liberty.

So if there is one are I want the federal government to be strong is against corporations.

Thanks for your response.
9 months ago: Sorry but your scheme does not hold water when subject to the rule.

You can "Elect" not to invest in a corporation... can you "Elect" not to invest in government?
9 months ago: Correct; however, you need to consider, if just for a fleeting, difficult moment, that there are different mechanisms to keep the air and water clean than government, that those mechanisms will do a better job.

Are you ready?

Are you paying attention?

The local or state governments (IF THEY WANT TO) decide how to keep their air clean, or the market.

Try hard to think about the market.

In Washington DC, a bunch of "know it alls" want to keep the air and water clean. They really, really, really don't know as much as they think they do.

Unless you've been camping with pygmy hobbits in a remote jungle in Indonesia for a while, non government schools talk about Jesus and government schools talk about oral sex. Am I missing something here?

That Dukes of Hazzard comment is funny considering you live in Kentucky. He..he...he..
9 months ago: You say:

"corporations are no better than big government, in fact, they are big because they have so much influence in government."

Fine. If you want to get rid of corporations, then we'll get rid of unions too. Deal.
Colorado
Colorado
Westcliffe, CO
9 months ago: Deal.

Much like the government, unions have a role but have over spent themselves.
9 months ago: Red? He lives in Kepuckerie? Maybe he has a direct line to Twich McTurncoat. We best not piss him off. FEMA and the TSA will put us on their TEA list.
9 months ago: Sorry RED. I already told them that the 2012 election will be mind blowing as the (as Huey calls it) new Underground Railroad is taking names. It's going to be fun.

I'm going to work on ousting twitch mcconnell in 2012. He might have been good in 1960 but has the illusion of 2012 Senate Majority Leader. Leaders like that is not what this country needs. Even if I have to send my money to a Conservative Democrat.
9 months ago: Dang...2014...I guess twitch will get 2 years of power trying to quash the Senate Tea. I'm sure he won't choke...Yeah, the other right stupid.
9 months ago: ditto
9 months ago: There are 535 voting members of Congress, but only the 12 "Super Congress" members get to decide our nations debt fate? Hey Tea Party that's not in the Constitution.
9 months ago: Hey Cully. Your right. It's not in the Constitution or the House bill. I think it is a Reid plan. Not sure if you know whos' bill was passed but it was the Reid / Obama plan.

"A "super-Congress" is being proposed by Senate leaders Harry Reid"

Yeah, yeah I know and turncoat mitch mcconnell. I think his days are numbered due to this among other things. I can't eve use caps in his name to show respect.

http://thenewamerican.com/usnews/congres...

Did you send your "that's not in the Constitution" statement to Harry?
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
9 months ago: Congress is free to act under their own rules and committee structures. As long as they don't circumvent the open Congress in the passage of bills, what they do in Committee is entirely up to them, Constitutionally speaking. In other words, as long as there is a vote, whether or not a bill allowed to be debated or amended is immaterial, provided the proper parliamentary procedure is used. That procedure, in the case of our Congress, is whatever they want it to be.
9 months ago: Congress does set it's own "Rules" don't they? Easy fix. Change the rule. It's not like they would be breaking any law and subject to persecution...prosecution.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
9 months ago: Article 1, Section 5

What would fix it?
9 months ago: Cause them to honor their oath to "Serve" the Country and not their voting block. Force them to accept they have and hold a "FIDUCIARY RESPONSIBILITY" to each and every citizen once they take the oath of office.
9 months ago: Sounds like we need some citizens as representatives, not politicians as reprsentatives.

Sum................
9 months ago: Red, it's statements like that which caused 99.99 percent of the people on this site to leave. Have you no shame?
9 months ago: Red? What is next? Your going to make some off the wall statement that pisses off the 50 percent that are non-taxpaying slugs so they move to Mexico for a better political system? I hope they have the list of approved ATF watch them walk gun stores before they cause us to lose sleep with their exit into Mexico.
9 months ago: They might as well go down there. The tagalongs are paying taxes anyway.
Altruist
Altruist
Eugene, OR
9 months ago: Lots of comments but the main thread of the post is being lost.

What should be the main role of government? To protect the citizens!

To the right that only means military and law enforcement. To the left it means protecting our air, water, safety, and workers rights from exploitation.

Yes government is too big because once an agency is made it wants to protect those jobs so it rationalizes it's own existence long after it's original goals are completed.

So make agencies with sundown provisions for every bill so that every agency has to justify it's existence. Is there still a need? Is the agency effective? Can the job be done better or cheaper? Does the agency plan for the future and will it save money in the future?

Every single agency in the country should be analyzed including every agency in the military to answer these questions.

The military is the biggest most corrupt part of government and even when the military doesn't want some weapon system Congress adds that weapon system because it makes jobs in their district. There is no watchdog for the military and we don't even know where the money goes or how much money we pump into the military industrial system. It is time to end many of the 1000 foreign bases, end the wars, cut military to 2000 levels (1/2) and concentrate on strengthening America here at home by rebuilding it economically.

Tax law is complicated and something like 20,000 pages long, and health care, and most other parts of the government, is likewise too long and complicated because hundreds of thousands of lobbyists insist on their corporation or constituency getting their own tax break. Simplify by outlawing lobbyists and money from the political system. Have the lawmakers do the right thing for the people, not the special interests.

The political system is broken because of partisan gridlock. The super committee will be deadlocked because every Republican on it will have signed a no tax pledge. Instead of 12 congressmen we should have 8 from Congress (2 from each house from each party) and 4 that are independent economists that actually understand the economic problems and can break the deadlock by doing what is right.

The same is true for all legislation. Instead of the Republicans being able to block anything in the Senate, we should do away with the filibuster, and replace it with a system that includes independents that are experts relating to the field.

Have a straight majority vote if something needs to be done. If yes make three proposals, one from the left one from the right and one from the independent experts. Then have both houses do preference voting to see which plan is best.

Currently politics is war and competition where winning (or causing the other side to loose) is more important than getting anything done for the good of the country. If preference voting was used it would force the two sides to cooperate instead of compete and then we would have civility again and we would get things done to solve the many problems the nation has.

I agree with Perfect, that if nothing changes our nation will go down the tubes and we will go into another major depression.

Conservatives by nature want things to remain as they are. Progressives want them to change.

Conservatives will send the nation into a depression because they resist change, because they want to preserve tax codes that benefit the rich and penalize the poor and middle class. WE see that happening now with the stock market, and with the jobs and unemployment reports getting worse. Austerity causes the economy to slow down and people to loose jobs.

If we had the rich and corporations paying their fair share we could create jobs and stimulate the economy without hurting the middle class, and we could get more money to the people, so they would buy more and then factories would hire more.

9 months ago: Sorry to say it but.. TsEA, we told you so...here is the S&P statement regarding the downgrade. It points to baseline budgeting. That would be the automatic increase in federal spending every year. So how is that attributed to the TEA Party?

Read it for yourself.

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/...

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