Science & Technology

Rave

Second Law of Thermodynamics God's Perfect Creation

Posted 24 months ago|255 comments|5,024 views
Evening and morning were the first day..
VIDEOS
Written by
Like most things... hindsight is 20/20 and on this subject it is better than that! Every observable model we have in the known Universe portrays this phenomenon... increased entropy... or "the thermodynamic property toward equilibrium/average /homogenization/dissipation" of every energized system we know of. This is simply the degradation of the force and order of objects. "(H)otter, more dynamic areas of a system lose heat/energy while cooler areas (e.g., space) get warmer / gain energy; molecules of a solvent or gas tend to evenly distribute; material objects wear out; organisms die; the universe is cooling down." And it is this undisputed Second law of thermodynamics, observable in all or our know Universe; that paints a perfect historical order, that we have diminished from. Simpler... all things are less "ordered" than when we began.

"The second law of thermodynamics states that the amount of energy in a system that is available to do work is decreasing. Entropy increases as available energy decreases. In other words, the purely natural tendency of things is to move toward chaos, not order, and available energy necessary for work is lost (mostly as heat) in this process. Eventually, the universe will run down and all life and motion will cease because all the energy that exists will be, more or less, evenly distrubuted so that no work can be performed and no life and exist. This is the natural tendency of all things. Batteries run down, machines break, buildings crumble, roads decay, living things die, etc. Left to the natural state, all things would eventually cease to function."
http://carm.org/entropy-and-causality-us...

Basically, if we were to rewind this "clock" we would find an ordered Universe... for all intents an purposes at it's operational "peak". It is a logical observation that a reverse to the process that degrades everything, would indeed "upgrade" everything. And if we do the math on this... our beginning our Genesis... was absolutely perfect! This is the only OBSERVABLE model we have. And if we are talking (observable/repeatable) science, and not mere conjectural nonsense; then we should all be able to agree, that our beginning was not an evolution. Here are some 'slick' points to ponder...

"by Matt Slick

1) The universe is not infinitely old because it has not "run down."

2) Because the universe had a beginning, it is not infinite in size.

3) All events have causes.

4) Since the universe is finite and had a beginning, and there cannot be an infinite number of regressions of causes to bring it into existence, there must be a single uncaused cause of the universe.

5) This uncaused cause is supernatural.

6) The Bible teaches that God is uncaused, is not part of the universe, created the universe, and is incredibly powerful.

7) Therefore, the God of the Bible is the uncaused cause of the universe."
http://carm.org/entropy-and-causality-us...

After a grueling discussion with an Atheist over these principles, all he could say was... "That doesn't prove God Created it!" True enough, however the Bible is the only historical document that supports the scientific evidence... not even the textbooks affirm good science! Now I concede that the Bible is no "science book" ...but neither is the trash in the public school student's hands! When an education system deliberately buries evidence, or is merely discarding evidence for fear of where the inevitable
conclusion will lead... that's NOT science... it's RELIGIOUS!

I can't wait for some dyed-in-the-wool Darwinist to retort... "Evolution is only a biological process, within a greater... blaa blaa blaa blaaaaa" ...Really? Like the question that stumped Richard Dawkins on this issue, would stump the fated Darwin today...

"Can you give an example of a genetic mutation or an evolutionary process which can be seen to increase the information in the genome?"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zaKryi360...

"Encouragingly, in the year that has passed since then there have been almost half a million viewings of this video, by people from around the world. That's several hundred thousand people who have witnessed for themselves the utter inability of evolution's leading apologist to account for genetic information."
http://creation.com/was-dawkins-stumped-...

...since then there has been considerably more than "half a million viewings of this video" ...there is now almost 2 and a half million viewings of this video, and still no answer from any religious Darwinian for the basic question posed. The question should have been asked rhetorically so Dawkins could have understood it. OK, I am a bit "chippy" but at least my gall is unmitigated! With all the ad hominem attacks and misdirection I have heard on this issue... even down to the "editing" of the video; it's all merely an attempt to dismiss the fundamental problem with "evolution"
..."making things better"... in a fallen world.

The fact is the data supports that "all this" was made perfect and in order.
AND if not by God... then by what or whom??

"What is the Big Bang Theory?
According to the Theory of Evolution, 18 to 20 billion years ago all the matter in the universe was compressed into a tiny little dot. As the dot began to spin faster and faster, it finally exploded, releasing all of the matter and energy into the universe, producing everything we see today. That explosion of matter and energy is known as The Big Bang..."
http://sepetjian.wordpress.com/2011/09/2...

To quote a US political/science/religious prisoner (Kent Hovind)... "these fairy-tales all start out the same way... "Long long long long ago, and far far away....." !:]

Refuting Evolution: A handbook for students, parents, and teachers countering the latest arguments for evolution... by Jonathan Sarfati, Ph.D., F.M.
http://creation.com/refuting-evolution-i...

Refuting Evolution in under 3 min
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIm85Yupl...

Get to know the "Unknown Intelligent Designer" and honor Him for your intellegence...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSZPDYriJ...

"Don't Waste Your Life" by John Piper
http://dwynrhh6bluza.cloudfront.net/reso...
UPDATE - 24 months ago
Entropy and causality used as a proof for God's existence
http://carm.org/entropy-and-causality-us...
UPDATE - 23 months ago
"Watch this FREE full documentary now...
The documentary The Case for Christ follows reporter Lee Strobel as he interviews a number of religious and historical scholars in order to find out if there is any proof of the resurrection, and to discover the historical veracity of the New Testament. In trying the case for Christ, Strobel cross-examined a number of experts and recognized authorities in their own fields of study. He conducted his examination with no religious bias, other than his predisposition to atheism."
http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/the-case-...
EMAIL|FLAG THIS POST
COMMENTS
24 months ago: Mmmm... not even one quote from the Bible?
Nethel
Nethel
24 months ago: A personal best I would think TB, myself, I only believe in the things I learn for myself. Being told something can form a basis of knowledge, but until you yourself do the leg work to understand the natural system in place. You can not really support the text book opinion. Be that science or the bible, science can be proven, dis-proven, reinvented, expanded and explained. Not so much for the bible, as I pointed out in earlier posts. The History of architecture disagrees with the bible a lot. Since architecture is far older then the bible I agree with it.

As to who or what started the big bang? a natural system that repeats a unending cycle of creation and destruction. I would say gravitational forces are the crutch of this system and natural balance of environments. Is that the truth of it? probably not, but it is my understanding of observed natural system. A natural system just is, nothing more, nothing less.

As to why didn't that person explain what they thought when asked that question? could be he didn't have the time to explain it in the interview slot. Could be he felt the question was not worth a response etc... Have they done a follow up to that question? being that their may not have been time in the interview to answer such a question?

Content Removed by Truthbrary
24 months ago: Nethel,

I like your subtle approach to introducing theories as truth... fact is the "history of architecture" doesn't disagree with the Bible, because it can be proven to be merely older. Also "a natural system that repeats a unending cycle of creation and destruction" is just a theory based NOT on what's observable, rather on wishful thinking... to avoid the inevitable of what is observable.

You say... "A natural system just is, nothing more, nothing less" ...well, if that works for you, it would be similar to saying... a corvette just is, nothing more, nothing less. And that's OK for those who wouldn't ponder origins, or find that the whole thing is beyond them... however, when a government pushes their religion/pseudo science (unfounded and inaccurate outdated and proven wrong by their own standards) on unsuspecting and trusting children; with tax payer's money (I might add); then I have a BIG problem with it!

It is more than just mere interest that is at stake... it is the perspective paradigm that children will see themselves in the context of. Animals or merely chemicals... to survive at what ever the cost, or whomever it hurts. These are the children that will give up their constitutional rights for global-green depopulating genocidal agendas... a bit outlandish? It is no time to take the back-seat on the bus that's headed over the cliff. It is time for people to see where this pseudoscience is headed... and if you want to be in the proverbial hand-basket.
(UN) Agenda 21 Sustainable Development Laws
24 months ago: "This is not a moot issue. At the root of the globalist movement is Agenda 21, 'Sustainable Development.' This worldwide program, agreed upon by 178 nations including the United States, reveals the directive that human population is to be decreased by 85% (United Nations; Global Biodiversity Assessment Report, page 673). This policy has appealed to many who argue "overpopulation." Accordingly, says the consensus, everyone's "right to life" must be discarded in order to achieve globalist objectives." Taking Liberty: Agenda 21 Explained – Part I by Kevin Hayden"
http://www.truthistreason.net/taking-lib...
http://www.rantrave.com/Rant/Agenda-21-S...
Huey Newton
Huey Newton
 Administrator
24 months ago: Bam!!
24 months ago: Sorry Nethel,

Not to belabor the point about the Bible and it's account of history... but before someone talks about those backward "tribal" folk not being able to hand down written accounts, one needs to realize that Noah's dad would have known Adam. It could have been that the early Biblical accounts were merely handed down orally, or that they were destroyed in the global flood... at any rate, any stories handed down could have been verified first hand by the previous generation.

Longevity Chart: Adam to Joseph
http://www.godsholyspirit.com/creation/c...
Nethel
Nethel
23 months ago: TB, architecture was used to record history, so were clay pots. It was the written history back then. Important information was recorded pictorially at first until language was added. The global flood just never happened.
Secrios
Secrios
England
23 months ago: The Bible is just a boring piece of paper.
Content Removed by Sunny1
23 months ago: Secrios...

And you look like a cartoon !;]
IF the Bible is boring, maybe you should get to know the Author !:]
23 months ago: I was thinking if you find it so boring that maybe you could get a children's picture book to explain it to you.
23 months ago: I find you boring.
The Bible is Good News for billions and billions of people.
Huey Newton
Huey Newton
 Administrator
24 months ago: Former atheists and skeptics make the best believers.

Once reality cuts through all the bias, pain, pride, desires for zero accountability, and all the other BS, these folks grab on to God with a commitment and tenacity that is nothing less than astounding.

Basic science and basic logic: 1) Nothing cannot create something no matter how much time you give it. 2) The universe has a beginning therefore the only thing that can have brought about its existence is something that is eternal to it. Duh.

Also, codes only come from intelligence. There is no evidence to the contrary anywhere in science. Double duh.

Anyone who truly believes there is NO evidence at all for this universe having been created by design and on purpose is about as dumb as a stump and about as ignorant as they come.

Nice work TB.
24 months ago: I remember when I was caught-up in the occult/eastern philosophy and also when I tried to consolidate this all with my belief in evolution... I didn't do it out of rebellion, I was sincerely trying to make sense of it all. I was raised a certain way, to believe certain things, and honestly it was confusing on the inside... while I had to make everything appear good on the outside. I feel for people that start putting it all together, and then become vulnerable... it almost ended my life. The honest person will consider facts... but ultimately God will have to intervene, because if He doesn't "show up" to help the seeker... it will end up being just another "belief" to add to his/her resume. I love it when God personally comes through !:]
Nethel
Nethel
24 months ago: Evolution wise, I am not a scientist so I can be wrong, I would point out the mutations of eye and hair colours. The different breads of dogs bread for specific traits. The "spartan" system of breading warrior generations, the haves and the have nots of the athletic world. For example black boxes have a more wiry musculature that makes them a better boxer physically on the base level.
Nethel
Nethel
24 months ago: or what this fellow said http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJCWjOVlI...
Huey Newton
Huey Newton
 Administrator
24 months ago: Hi Nethel.

http://www.exchangedlife.com/Creation/ma...

The above link should provide some light.
Nethel
Nethel
24 months ago: doesn't seem to cover mutation of the DNA genome which was the case with hair and eye colour. Or are we going with a completely unrelated genetic trait being added to a existing species? Like us suddenly growing a third eye?

Hrm, I suppose we would need to define the extent of the subject matter. If we are talking a trait not present in a species and is added via mutation of the cells... or are we talking a healthy living being that suddenly develops a new trait not previously seen in that species?
24 months ago: Nethel,

I like what this guy had to say about bacteria being able to adapt and thus adding new information to the genome found in DNA. Genomes are indeed NOT static, however, a bacteria regardless of "adaptation" cannot become for instance, a virus. That kind of "new information" is what is meant in the context of macro evolution, where one species becomes quite another... simply not observable (science).
Huey Newton
Huey Newton
 Administrator
24 months ago: Did you read it to the end?
24 months ago: Yeah Huey,

That is a great ref, and it shows the limitations of "new" info in DNA, it also describes clearly the difference between micro-evolution (adaptation) and macro-evolution (from one species to another), where simply put, there is no evidence at all for macro-evolution. I like the conclusion Huey...

"Don't mistake micro-evolution for Darwinian evolution. They are not related. When a Christian says they do not believe in evolution, it is not a reference to changes in specific traits. It is a reference to changes that require crossing the DNA limitations. When the facts stare evolutionists in the face, they are reduced to either insulting those who present the evidence or they must admit their world view doesn't hold water. Evolutionists always call Christians and creationists non-thinkers because we question their illogical theories. Critical analysis is not un-intellectual, but it is unreasonable to refuse to honestly look at the whole picture painted when all the facts are presented. When someone builds their belief system around a godless world view, it leaves the realm of science and becomes a religious defense. Anyone who gets angry at the facts is not defending science, but is defending their hope that God does not exist and their hope that there is no God in which we are accountable."
http://www.exchangedlife.com/Creation/ma...
Altruist
Altruist
Eugene, OR
24 months ago: Your premises - or whoever wrote this is flawed. For one thing the Observable universe consists of hundreds of billions of galaxies each with hundreds of billions of stars some of which are being born as we watch while others are dying. But that is just the observable universe. String theory or M theory (Membrane Theory) postulates that there eleven different dimensions and multiple perhaps an infinite number of universes.

The amount of things that we don't know is almost as unlimited as all of the molecules on all of those worlds. To say that all of the answers are held in a collection of folk tales from some obscure desert tribes is ludicrous, especially since we know that those folk tales have themselves evolved and changed over the thousands of years and probably bear little resemblance to the original folk tales. Superstition is simply an excuse for intellectual laziness.

Your puny god, that chose that obscure cruel and violent desert tribe as his chosen people, is too small. The folk tales that describe you god were made by people who had little understanding of the physical world, of the planet, or the limitless stars. They couldn't even comprehend the concept of our circling the nearest star. How could those primitive people ever hope to understand the workings of the multiverse when the smartest and most educated today are humbled because the more they learn the more they realize that they know little.

The concept that a single being might be responsible for all of the innumerable worlds in the innumerable galaxies in innumerable universes is something that people can think about, but what we can know for certain is that such an unfathomable being would have absolutely nothing in common with the old man with a beard that most Christians visualize. It is absolutely certain that man was not made in the image of man, but rather that early people simply made the god of their folk tales with human faults and failings so the simple people back then could comprehend. It is amazing that people today take these old folk tales as the literal truth and use them as an explanation for a science that the originators could never understand.

At least L. Ron. Hubbard was more creative in his science fiction, but it is astounding that anyone would take his tales as truth either.

By the way Entropy and the laws of thermodynamics does not state that the cold empty space gets warmer. Entropy states that all things go from a higher energy state to a lower state.
24 months ago: Altruist, let's just summarize what you got...

1) "A star is born theory"
2) "String or (mucous) Membrane theory"
3) "Multiverse theory"
4) "We don't know misdirect"
5) "Tribal superstitions insult"
6) "Puny (vicious) god insult"
7) "Old man with a beard"
8) "Primitive people misdirect"
9) "The god of their folk tales excuse"
10) "Cold space myth"

Mmmm.... not one fact.... only conjecture and jaw-dropping disbelief; much like our fellow Richard Dawkins... you don't have an answer to a single question...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zaKryi360...


24 months ago: BTW,

I guess to ants, we seem quite INCONCEIVABLE too !:]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D58LpHBnv...
24 months ago: Al, Wow that stung.
Then you can ask yourself Why can't it be ?
If we don't know everything as you said, then anything is possible.
I believe in my God, and I also continue to look to science for answers because it is there for us to explore. This would be a pretty boring place if we had nothing to be curious about. You yourself juggle this great mystery because of your inquisitive mind. That's good. There is too much we need to know and the struggle is there for us. It is a rough road for people to keep moving forward.
It got here somehow. I don't think we are ready to know. Maybe 2 billion years from now. All I know is we are here to contribute in some way or another.
All I know is that it is a pretty beautiful gift for our short life span.
24 months ago: One more thing Altruist,

Your evolution is "inherently racist" and a disgrace to humanity...

"Darwin considered the Australian Aborigines as primitive and not much evolved from the 'anthropoid apes'. He prophesied that the 'wilder races', as he called them, would become extinct because survival of the fittest meant they would be superseded by the evolutionarily-advanced 'civilized' races. By advanced he was referring to his own European Caucasoid 'race', of course.

Because of evolutionary teaching, the idea that people with dark skin are primitive soaks deep into everyone's unconscious today. The idea makes Europeans feel superior and indigenous people inferior. It affects attitudes, behaviour and government policy—adversely."
http://creation.com/evolution-is-inheren...
24 months ago: "They're teaching racism to our kids... Textbook used in government schools portrays 'blacks' as less evolved..."
http://creation.com/theyre-teaching-raci...
24 months ago: Al, the responses to your comment I have not fully read, just skimmed them. Seems that ridicule of your statements was more important than providing "facts" that they were so quick to claim you had not furnished to prove "your" statement of theories.

Strange that the only "fact" they can muster is the selfsame book written by man about those same ignorant ancestors you mentioned who didn't know they were on a ball of rock, spinning around a ball of "fire", out on the arm of a small galaxy in a little corner of a vast universe.

I did notice the reference to Biblical scholars who estimate 10 to 15,000 years in a timeline that according to most creationist is only 6,000 years long........ hard to rectify those kinds of gross errors of accounting other than to say there is little agreement in the Biblical camp, other than they are right and you and I are wrong because they said so.... (Sorry Nethel, I think I'm mixing your and other posts to make a point.)

I agree with you though. Since those men who wrote those stories had no idea of the magnitude of the universe(s) around them, they grossly underestimated how big a story they would need to tell and how much detail they would need to put into it to make it convincing several thousand years down the road when humankind advanced to the point where we are now, just starting to get a grasp of what we don't know and being able to use what we do. Their "Bible God" is quite petty compared with one that could rule over what little we can see from just Galileo's telescope and now we have Hubble and some new ones coming on line that make Hubble look like a toy.

Someone mentioned that there are no "codes" in nature or some such blather. Strange how science does not bear that out. Many, many codes in nature, oh that's right, intelligent design put them there!!! How foolish of me. Sorry, that theory was dumped several years ago by many of the very people who proposed it because it is just as provable as creation theory, which isn't provable at all.

As things age they do not get more chaotic nor more active nor warmer, they slow and align to each other and cool to a common temp. Just the way stuff works.

The magnitude of it all is rather daunting and some must hide in religion rather than face the fact that humans are insignificant in the scope of the universe while others question and learn and hope to someday understand.
24 months ago: Six,

It's like you said about Al's rebuttal, you haven'e fully read it; and you obviously haven't read my post... but your eyes are probably as weak as your comment, so I am going to summarize a bit for you...

"Basically, if we were to rewind this "clock" we would find an ordered Universe... for all intents an purposes at it's operational "peak". It is a logical observation that a reverse to the process that degrades everything, would indeed "upgrade" everything. And if we do the math on this... our beginning our Genesis... was absolutely perfect! This is the only OBSERVABLE model we have. And if we are talking (observable/repeatable) science, and not mere conjectural nonsense; then we should all be able to agree, that our beginning was not an evolution. Here are some 'slick' points to ponder...
http://carm.org/entropy-and-causality-us...

...so take a look at some information, do your homework, come back with some facts... and we will talk. Because just because the Bible writers didn't come up with a "big" enough "story" for you... doesn't mean it can't line up with what is observable. Entropy SIX! Entropy! Just think about it, that is the only model we see... not evolving into a more ordered, more powerful state.

WAIT A MINUTE... I knew I hear your reasoning about telling a "big enough story" somewhere before... that's it! Mein Kampf! Your reasoning was taken from Hitler's work on "The Big Lie" ...just because your "big lie" in evolution, is big enough... it's still a phony lie! AND no self respecting, non-racist will ever believe it !:]

"The expression was coined by Adolf Hitler, when he dictated his 1925 book Mein Kampf, about the use of a lie so "colossal" that no one would believe that someone "could have the impudence to distort the truth so infamously."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Lie
24 months ago: I must remember to use better sentence structure. I meant that I had read your post, Al's comment and skimmed the others, reading some. It all seemed to be familiar so I didn't dig too deep. That tends to get me into battles over nuances.

My reading only turns up things that will upset you on the point of evolution and the laws of thermodynamics so why bother, you'll just say my references are bad and yours are infallible because your support your Biblical version of how the world came to be.

Oh what the heck:
http://www.entropylaw.com/thermoevolutio...
Just skip to the conclusion, don't want to tax your time.

Guess you expect me to read that book too, sorry, not in my library. Heard he had some good ideas and some really bad ones too. As for Hitler coining a phrase..... yeah right, like no one else had ever uttered those words in that order before.

Oh yeah, when the first word on a web site is "Christian" I tend to discount it as slanted research to prove the Christian side of a question and since they have been known to use any method but the scientific one to prove their hypothesis and/or just make up something that sounds good, I look for other sites not interested in proving a religious point. Find me one that has EDU in it and not a religious EDU either, I live close enough to one of those already.
24 months ago: I can't understand why people are so blind.
Maybe people who are religious see more than others.
23 months ago: Altruist and Six,

You guys, like many Atheists talk about "different dimensions and multiple perhaps an infinite number of universes" ...yet when we talk about Heaven and Hell, and those that have returned from both, you scoff?!? What's with that ?:]
24 months ago: I'm keeping God out of this comment. I'm wondering about this.
You can say why do we have love for another person.
Why do we seek endless knowledge? Do we have to look at it one way and say there is a scientific reason? We don't know why. There is more than just science to look at here. It goes far deeper. We are small in our world but a mind can be infinite. Space and its galaxies are mysteries are either a place of hope or a place of destruction. It can be either. We are pretty much confined to this small place. We can't move around like we would want to here because of danger. Yet, people go right to it. We can't exist in drastic changes of temperature and dangerous environments. We have to look for other places and that takes courage and faith.
To me it is as if another entire world is going on without us in space that we can't comprehend or completely be a part of. It still is there.
Children have a natural curiousity, and they haven't been contimidated with doubt. They're pure in their thinking. There are mysteries on both sides of the argument that can't be explained. So why is one only a fable and one not?
Again, why couldn't certain people be chosen? Why is it because they don't meet our expectations of who should be the chosen people. Right there we are prejudice and discrimatory to mankind.
No matter how you look at it. Everything has a beginning and works itself up to where it must be. If early man to you wasn't made in the image of our God, maybe because it had to start from somewhere to get to where it should be. Everything grows from a seed into a big tree. Seed doesn't look like a tree, but it has to begin from somewhere.
That's how I see it. I question myself as far as knowledge but my faith is special to me, and I'm glad I have that.

Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
24 months ago: What I got from Altruist's response is that he's willing to concede the possible existence of a creator, but he isn't willing to give credit to Yahawweh. He states that early man didn't understand the universe, and then faults them for for not fully understanding the creator of that universe.

I'm not sure where he was going with the new stars and dying stars. That the universe is running out of fuel is an observable fact. That the universe had a beginning is observable fact. And that the universe will at some point become cold and dark and lifeless is observable fact.

The great thing about string theory is that it increases the likelihood of a being that lives in dimensions beyond our comprehension, the likelihood of that entity being able to perform what we call miracles.
24 months ago: Early man didn't have to understand the universe. It is what is learned afterwards down the line. Who is to say that we are not early man.
We learn through experience, and we still have a long way to go.
To say that our beliefs are driven by fairytales, a puny person, and old man with a beard. PLEASE! I don't see the possibility of a willingness to concede to the existence of a creator even if he is giving credit to Yahawweh. You don't poke fun of another person's God. Al is a smart man and scientific. He sees one way and we see another. I wouldn't criticize him for his beliefs.
I do believe in the possibility of another demension, why not?
Our minds are infinite and there is a reason for that.
24 months ago: Sunny,

All is fair on RantRave... I poked fun at his god... !:]
24 months ago: Sure!
Nethel
Nethel
24 months ago: In early mans defense they understood the natural world to a certain extent. We are still using there calendars after all. Their architecture and engineering is still better then a lot of what is being done today. Think of stone henge, those stones have remained standing for a long time. In addition to that with ground movement the stones have only shifted a handful of mm in their entire history.

As to the bible... christian scholars place Noah's flood around 10,000 BCE... earliest recorded human civilizations with migration around Europe 15,000 BCE... World history of architecture. Does that invalidate your belief in god? nope. Does it invalidate the little good the book did? nope. The christian faith did set up pilgrimage shrines around Europe to get people moving around again.

Course I question the wisdom in setting up shrines over a thousand years after the fact. Normally it is done right after the event as it was considered important to architectural history and the people involved. Just saying, Al isn't wrong in his interpretation about the book. But I am sure it could have been worded more diplomatically.

The whole creator thing I have to question you on that one Sunny. Are we talking the creator as it is implied in the bible (which is a controversial subject with the bible in question)? A primal force that kicked off the big bang? Or a entity that just started the process? I think we can all agree that a process happened to initiate the universe as we know it.

Is that god? nope, in direct contrast with the bibles version of events. You just follow the christian scholars time line and the universe isn't as old as it is. Yet it is, a science fact. No mention of our fossil history etc... Can a entity exist that defies our understanding who started the universe? sure, it is possible, nothing to support it yet, but still possible.

Once we get those more powerful telescopes to view those other worlds. If there is life on them we will know for sure if God exists or not. It will settle the religious debate with most of them.
24 months ago: Nethel,

Your timeline is a bit off... Noah's flood was between 2350 BC and 3150 BC depending on who's genealogical account is more accurate (Flood—Ussher: 2348 B.C. / Hales: 3155 B.C.).
http://www.christiananswers.net/dictiona...

It is always interesting to see how certain archaeological and architectural finds are dated. IF you care to substantiate the dating of some 15,000 BC I would like to see it. However a couple of things come into play if indeed the Biblical model for the flood was correct, we might have the oldest living tree substantiate those dates of 2350 - 3150 BC (adding approx 2000 years to date)...
we have Bristlecone pines trees that are currently 4350 - 5150 years old.

"The bristlecone pines are a small group of pine trees (family Pinaceae, genus Pinus, subsection Balfourianae) that are thought to reach an age far greater than that of any other single living organism known, up to nearly 5,000 years."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bristlecone...

Not to mention the cities currently under water...
http://www.rantrave.com/Rave/Underwater-...
24 months ago: Nethel,

Now let's take a look at your other point when you said...

"You just follow the christian scholars time line and the universe isn't as old as it is. Yet it is, a science fact." Mmmm... as I pointed out, because of entropy, our history would be MORE ORDERED... and that means perfect, or fully mature... and that is the inevitable conclusion of where our past would be, in contrast with where we are headed given observable entropic trends.

OK, so, the Bible says that God created everything perfect in one day, and evidence concludes that our start was from it's "peak" to what it is today. Like the creation of Adam and Eve, we have animals abruptly appearing in the fossil record (BTW which was laid down by a global flood), without any transitional creatures of (macro)evolution. Like Adam and Eve that God created (mature) of full age and ready to procreate; like the plants and fruit trees, with fruit and seed int them; as the animals fully formed and able to bear young; so too, the Earth was Created mature, aged and ready to rotate, and sustain those that would procreate !:] This is the model we see by the observable evidence.
Content Removed by Truthbrary
24 months ago: ...as incredible as this sounds, though it is exactly based on what we can observe, the Living God created the Earth aged and mature from nothing; it is by far less incredible than everything going against everything we can observe; and mutating first from nothing, and then the inanimate non-life things to life, without causality...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIm85Yupl...
Nethel
Nethel
23 months ago: wasn't my time table, I did a search on Noah's time period and used the one the christian scholar came up with based on his understanding of the bibles chronology. If it is wrong, my bad, but there is no way the flood happened in 3150 to 2350 BCE.

starting at 3500 BCE ish: Mehrgarh 6500-2800 BCE, Banpo 4500-3750,Niuheliang ritural centre 3500 BCE, Yaoshan ritural alter 3300-2000BCE, Shijiahe 2800-2000BCE, the late neolithic age 5000-2000BCE, Egyptian Predynastic period 4500-3100 BCE, Abydos 4000-641 BCE, Uruk settled 4000 BCE, tell es-Sawwan 3500 BCE, Mastaba k1 at bet challaf 2600 BCE to name a few civilizations, structures and time period... the flood just missed them right?
Nethel
Nethel
23 months ago: ah what the hey: Europe passage tombs and dolmens of megaliths 3500-2500 BCE, Temple of Uruk and Eridu 3500 BCE, earlist readable documents in Mesopotamia 3200 BCE. I can go further back and forward to the modern era if you would like me to type out every civilization, structural monuments etc... will take me a few days to get it all and then you can check them out if you like.
23 months ago: Nethel, is there a published chart that correlates all the different timelines of all the different cultures to a common reference? Just reference that. I haven't searched yet, just thought you might have it handy.

Remember, no matter what you bring to the table, the answer will be "God created it that way."

Me, I'd like to see the timeline.
Nethel
Nethel
23 months ago: Every Architectural History book ever written, these ones were pulled from "A global History of Architecture" the book is broken into time periods and goes as far back as 25,000 BCE with: apollo 11 cave, wadi kubbaniyain, Lascaus and Chauvet etc... 12 locations in total for that time period and then the aboriginal rock paintings representing the longest continuously practiced artistic tradition in the world in Ubirr that date back to 40,000 BCE.

You can also check a global history of Art, which also goes all the way back tracking art/styles/etc.. to the same time periods.
Nethel
Nethel
23 months ago: Of course it will, it is the default answer of religion. But when you actually look at the development of civilizations you will notice that the bible is grossly wrong about world history. Once you learn to read architecture and can visually look at ancient structures and read the story they represent the bible gets chucked out the window as the fabrication it is unfortunately.

It is well document through the dark ages of how the church went through Europe doing as much cultural damage as possible to make the bible the one "real" truth. From setting up the pilgrim shrines to prove some of the stories, how they sainted people after murdering them to take over towns and communities... etc... all document in architectural history.

In architecture it is just as important to us of why the cultural building went up, how it effected the community, the improvements, the good and the bad it caused, how the structure was used through the ages. Also how its original function may be different from the function it does now. As it is to know the construction methods, architectural style and the architect who designed and built it.
Nethel
Nethel
23 months ago: Ah, almost missed the time reference. The books use the "christian" time line but renames them from BC to BCE (Before common era) and AD to CE (Common era). So you can directly select time periods between the two. At the start of each time period is a table showing the different civilizations, structures and periods for that division of time. I do not think a total table was constructed of it all. When I get home from work tonight I will check to see if one is listed in the appendix that I could scan.
Nethel
Nethel
23 months ago: Oy TB, no explanation on how god missed those locations? that shouldn't exist at all because Noah has yet to repopulate the world? or how about the earlier settlements and ages before it?

Should we go over how the Babylonians designed their temples with the two lower floors being dedicated to the original gods and the top most floor to the patron deity of that location? The religious practices of a people that do not exist...

who should have a healthy fear of god complex and be passing down all the stories of the bible. But have not because their own gods were more important then the bible and were recorded instead?
23 months ago: Nethel,

I was away for awhile, but now I'm back... and very entertained by the level of "scientific" method being used to date prehistoric architecture. Oh, by the way what is "prehistoric" any way?

pre·his·tor·ic/ˌprē(h)iˈstôrik/
Adjective:
Of, relating to, or denoting the period before written records.
Very old, primitive, or out of date.

...doesn't anyone find it more than curious, that any (observable) evidence for any written language doesn't date further back than... say 2900 BC? Maybe any (observable) evidence was washed away in the flood ?:]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_lan...

OK, back to things that are "prehistoric" and the "dating" for such finds... like the architecture that you are bragging about, with assigned dates before any written (observable) evidence that can be accurately dated. At this point one must rely on subjective radio carbon dating or other means of ascribing dates to things "prehistoric". It would simplify things a whole bunch, if everything that was called "prehistoric" was just called "preflood" ...because that is what the (observable) evidence portrays... but that might be too observably scientific.

Below is a short video that can help anyone understand "prehistoric" dating done by today's "scientist" ...it seems we know how old objects are because of the rock layer they were found in; and we know how old the rock layer was because of the fossils found in the rock layer; and we know how old the fossils are because of certain rocks found with them... and certainly we know how old certain architecture is, because it is found with some of these things found with around them! And if all else fails we can just have some archaeologist pull a number (magically) out of a hat, to satisfy inquiring seekers.

Mr Bill Goes to Berkeley!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snalu_LSH...
23 months ago: The Radiometric Dating Game
http://www.bible.ca/tracks/dating-radiom...

Did someone mention STONEHENGE?
"...Stonehenge was probably finally completed around 1500 BC..."
http://www.britannia.com/history/h7.html
Nethel
Nethel
23 months ago: You are not listening TB on how architecture records the history of the places it makes up. I already told you that architecture was used as a written history. They tell us how they lived, what was important and in many, record important events/functions of those people. Simply saying "maybe it was all washed away in the flood" doesn't work. Cause if that was the case guess your religion went down the toilet as it didn't survive. But it did as oral stories told by Noah to his sons and their families. Who went on to repopulate the world... except.

We have several groups of people living and thriving in the time periods you say the flood happened in. We can trace their architectural history all the way through. From start to finish, and it isn't just one culture, it is multiple cultures. Nothing in them saying the great flood or the one god, or any of the biblical stories that survived orally. Does it make sense to you that every single civilization would have a oral tradition to the stories of the bible and a entire different religion that worships multiple gods?

Mean while all you have is: A book says so, I believe the book. I will even use a biblical example of how architecture was used to prove Islam is the one true religion of god (not that I believe that BS). King Salomon's temple in Jerusalem, location of the ark of covenant. Which in times of war was taken down and lead the armies of the jew's. Sacced, burned and damaged in a earthquake to near ruin, rebuilt 2-3 times. Christian's came and attempted to build a church on the site. Seismic activity knocked the construction down until it was abandoned by the Christian's.

Now remember, ALL NATURAL disasters are the wrath/will of God according to the priests of the time. The Islamic religion came along and built the 'Dome of the Rock' on the site of old temple. It remained standing after a quake, guess what the Islamic said? See that, GOD knocked down the christian church, but ours remain standing, it is gods will that Islam replace Judaism as the one truth!

Now does that make Islam the one truth TB?
23 months ago: Nethel,

...I am listening, and you obviously don't regard the massive evidence for the flood, when not just the "BOOK" is reference to it...

"Did you know that stories about a worldwide flood are found in historic records all over the world? According to Dr. Duane Gish in his popular book Dinosaurs by Design, there are more than 270 such stories, most of which share a common theme and similar characters. So many flood stories with such similarities surely come from the Flood of Noah's day."
http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles...

...BTW no astute student of Architecture and Archaeology dismisses the Bible... no one... only you? Mmmm... so you are an anomaly, better educated than your peers (and teachers); but because you have christophobia you toss it all.

As to you ref to Islam as truth... if it's ancient works recognize places and landmarks... sure we can use them too... it doesn't mean it's teachings are correct; and nor would it mean Biblical teachings are correct by comparison... however, Biblical teachings are correct by the life, death and resurrection of one Jesus Christ. The only one to stop time... and start it... BC - AD !:]
Nethel
Nethel
23 months ago: except that time transition was brought on by a single body taking over most of Europe and not by one person. Does the Aztec calendar reflect Christianity? How about the Chinese? Japanese?... cultures that never heard of or resisted the take over by the religion. Like I said, documented about how the church operated when it went into a "new" area.

Getting back to dating of archeological sites, it doesn't matter how inaccurate it is. You can give it any degree of safety you want and it will still show that the area precedes, is active or is founded during the flood. There is a very simple architectural method for dating sites that doesn't use anything more then logic. It is the trace of civilization. Pick an area, Lets use Iran... then you trace the civilization back... each step bringing you closer to that magic number.

Documents can be wrong, dating methods are not infallible, what is are people and there architecture. If the people live in the same area, you can trace them and their architecture that made the civilizations all the way back. The people, there culture, there architecture, there civilization is right there. You can visually look at it.

Now, if that was one case... sure, their is doubt. But it isn't one case it is Egypt, it is China, it is Iran, it is Africa, it is north America etc... and etc. You can trace the civilization with its architecture all the way back to its founding and beyond. Not a date was used, just architectural style and the history of that people starting from today backwards.
Nethel
Nethel
23 months ago: Have I said at any point that the architecture of Christianity never happened? nope, it did just it started 400 years after Jesus died. What does not believing in the bible have to do with my history of architecture or professional career exactly? Just because I do not believe in the bible doesn't mean the gothic style of christian churches never happened. Nor the heated competition between Rome, Britain and German/Russia sects of Catholic Architecture.

What I am saying is the civilizations of the worlds architecture do not support the claims of the bible. If you look at each civilization and trace its architecture all the way back the bible is wrong. That simple of a statement of fact.
Nethel
Nethel
23 months ago: Also before you make claims about me being a better architect then my peers. You should understand that their are many different types of architects and architect specializations. As well as how architecture it taught at the academic level before making such observations.

Because what you are saying is true in the sense that I am a better working architect then my peers. Not because I am better, but because my training is not the normal standard to which architects are trained in Canada. I started as a Architectural Technologist trained in Architecture, Engineering- structural/mechanical/electrical, Land use, Law-architecture, design and presentation, fine arts, CAD, 3D modeling, GIS etc.. etc.. etc...

I know more about the construction of buildings and the interdisciplinary nature of architecture that I can do entire structures on my own without the input of other trade professionals. My work is seldom rejected by the authority, or only requires miner adjustments to go right into construction documentation. As a professional I would be considered a working Architect. Which is a architect that has a deep understanding of how things are constructed and built.

Every project I do is ready for construction and my work level is on par with a 5 person design team because of my education. This education, Architects do not receive until after completing a nearly 10 year architectural history course at a university. They only start to develop my skill set while in the field of architecture during their internship and junior architect training level. So YES TB, I know more about working architecture then my teachers, my fellow students, PHD level Architects, and a Architect with 10 years of experience in the industry. But that doesn't make me better then them, because it is you the client I am trained to help.
Nethel
Nethel
23 months ago: For example, I have worked on hundreds, close to thousands of projects of various sizes. Like 8km x 15km projects, entire sub divisions to a small 1200 sq ft cabin. If you compare that knowledge to another architect who has only done academic study models over a 50 year career. Then ask them to come up with a building concept and build it... they can't. At most you will get a design concept that can not be built let alone taken to a authority for approval for a development permit.

Just like if you were to do the reverse and ask me for a academic study model, I would be hard pressed to provide you with anything that resembled one. It isn't my field of expertise. Just like you could ask me to tell you a biblical story, I can hash out a few points of one from exposure. But you as you pointed out would go flaw for flaw in it. Where if some one asked you to recite genesis, you could probably do a much better job then I.

But what we are talking about is the reliability of the bible chronology vs the world architectural history. A subject that I do know in part, i.e. the architectural history of the world. Sure I will make mistakes and misses cause of the shear amount of it there is. But I can say with certainty that the flood did not happen.

Of course other cultures will have stories of floods and storms... EVERY sea going, near living culture has them because of the threat such events posses to them. Just like each one has a different explanation of why those storms happen. It is just God, Apsu, Triton, or some other god that did it and caused it. But we know now that it isn't god(s) that causes those events.
24 months ago: BOX,

What I got from Altruist's response was, as he put it...

"Superstition is simply an excuse for intellectual laziness" ...so if we were to observe his intellectual laziness; we could conclude his affirmations are merely superstitious.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
24 months ago: Truthbrary,

One thought about the equation "entropy =chaos". I don't think of "evenly distributed" as chaos. I would more likely give it, in human terms, the aspect of lethargy , or complacency. Hmmmm, there's an argument against progressivism in there somewhere!

When, in this natural universe, all motion eventually stops, there will be nothing but the dead matter that was once only pure energy.
24 months ago: It is like a big giant mechanical wheel.
Might get rusty at one point. LOL
24 months ago: BOX,

I thought I was careful to not use the "entropy =chaos" equation... I thought I was more presenting the "increased entropy = disorder" equation !:]

As I put it... "(it's the) Second law of thermodynamics, observable in all or our know Universe; that paints a perfect historical order, that we have diminished from. Simpler... all things are less "ordered" than when we began."

BUT I love your analogy of entropy being "in human terms, the aspect of lethargy , or complacency" ...pretty much sums it up !:]

As the pic I presented... in a closed system entropy increases... kind of makes you wonder about "time and space" also being in this state, and affected by it too.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
24 months ago: I have always considered time and space to be synonymous. Time is simply a measurement of distance, and without physical matter to compare, does not exist. And of course, entropy is affecting the universe, causing it to expand to fill an endless and eternal void.

Nethel, it wasn't a big bang that flung matter from a central point into the nothingness to form the universe. It was the Big Bloop. As in, imagine an methane bubble released deep in the ocean under 10,000 feet of water. The more it rises, the bigger it gets, and the molecules become more spread out.

Now imagine a ball of pure energy placed into the ripping vacuum of nothingness. Not space, not the universe, but pure nothingness. There is still nothingness all around the ball of energy, but instantly the ball of energy is compelled by the forces of entropy, the second law of thermodynamics, to fill the nothingness. So, the universe is not expanding because of a big central bang, but because of the vacuum that is pulling on it from the outside.

Big Bloop ® is trademark of OotB productions. All rights reserved.


instantlt the ball of energy is compelled
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
24 months ago: Sorry about the typo up there. Still getting used to the new electronics.

Another point I would like to remake. Altruist was talking about multiverses, other dimensions. Researchers' current experiments indicate that such dimensions would be microscopic and only exist for nanoseconds at a time.

But, if the quantum theorists dream was proven to be a reality, a 10 dimensional "bulk" containing "branes" that not only coexist, but also exist in infinite combinations of dimensions, what better way for a mega-dimensional intelligent designer to inject matter into a particular dimensional brane, while Himself would be free to travel throughout all the dimensions of the bulk.

This engineered "dumbed down" three dimensional matter would have to be engineered to behave according to a set of rules, Laws if you will. And the designer could pass unseen right through any set of dimensional planes, and could do things that are supernatural, (to us, anyway). Things like removing tumors from sick bodies, healing the sick by removing the faulty cells, replacing unseeing eye parts and nerves with functioning ones. Remember, this guy has mobility in ten dimensions.

The old maxim to illustrate how it would look to us to engage a being that lives in more than three dimensions: imagine you create a two dimensional world, complete with two dimensional people. All they can see is left, right, forward, backward, anything on their sheet of paper. If something comes between them and any other object, they can't see over it or under it. They can only move laterally in order to regain sight of the blocked object.

Now, imagine you put your fingertip on the sheet of paper. To the people that live on the paper, your finger appeared out of nowhere, miraculously. You remove your finger and to them it simply vanishes into thin air. Then you start moving things around with the tip of a needle, one of your people has a two dimensional "bloodclot" for example. You take your three dimensional syringe and suck it out. Voila, it's a miracle.

Science, if left alone for long enough, would eventually prove that the existence of an intelligent designer is not only possible, but more likely probable. Unfortunately for those disbelievers, science probably won't be left alone.
23 months ago: Box, Could be a duel universe unseen but existing side by side completely unaware and detached from one another.
24 months ago: Everybody questions and nobody knows anything.
It had to start from something it is so awesome.
Does anybody see how spectacular this place is?
24 months ago: Yeah,

It is pretty incredible !:]
Altruist
Altruist
Eugene, OR
24 months ago: I think we should make a distinction between religion and spirituality. Religions do some good when their teachings do some good in this world. For example Buddhist meditation and Hindu Yoga have many physical benefits. The power of belief and prayer is often powerful as is the placebo effect and voodoo.
What I think is harmful is when the various sects argue with each other about which version of their absurd fairytale is the truth and they start murdering each other, start wars, and make life miserable for everyone that doesn't share their opinion. Now we have the Sunnis and Shiites constantly warring because they differ on who should have led the religion 600 years ago. There are a thousand different Christian sects all claiming that if you don't share their peculiar beliefs you will burn in hell. Christians have a history of 350 years of torture during the inquisition and have burned millions of wise women as witches.

It is the true believers that believe in the literal words of their "holy" books that have caused most of the misery and suffering in the world. The world would be a much better place if all religions simply practiced tolerance of others. The problem with the true believers is that they pick and choose what parts of their holy books suites them. Some of today's Christians tend to believe in some obscure things from the old testament that deplores homosexuality while Jesus didn't even mention the subject. All of the Judeo/Christian/Islamic books have horrendous parts wherein god demands stoning of women who get raped and stoning your son if he gives you lip. Most of the Jews and Christians have learned to just ignore these particular parts while claiming still believing that these obscenely violent and cruel texts should be a guide to living and learning in the 21st century. Many radical Muslims still act upon those insane strictures. http://www.evilbible.com/Evil%20Bible%20...

I admire Buddhism because they know that it is all BS. Buddha said there was no god, he also said there was no self. Tantric Buddhism believes in meditating on one of many gods. I think the Gnostics the Buddhists and Jesus and the early Christians believed that God resides inside all of us. If you have to stick with one holy book at least the Kama Sutra is a lot of fun.

I think the Flying Spaghetti Monster is probably closer to what God would really look like and her 8 I'd Really Rather You Didn't s is far superior to the 10 commandments.
24 months ago: Al, I believe that all religions should practice tolerance of others as you do. Intelligent thinking people do have tolerance. Fanatics don't.
I don't like fire and brimstone preachings. I don't like Buddism either. They worship a statue with a big fat tummy and live up in the mountains away from people. Ha I couldn't resist.
A statue that symbolizes self indulgence is the way I see it. (I know that isn't true). I believe they see life as a precious gift, and they are wise about life.
These Sunnis and Shiites will never see eye to eye. It's about power and control and starts wars and killings. I think that is the ultimate purpose for these groups.
I've always been spiritual but that in itself isn't enough. If you notice people who are selfless and do good for others, usually life treats them well. People that are selfish and greedy may be given opportunity but if they don't use it wisely more than llikely will lose it all. That is a fact of life. I've seen it happen over and over again.
I don't like religious fanatics. They do ruin it for everyone else.
I don't care what people choose as a religion but don't force it on anyone else. All I know is we are in this together for the long run. I still wouldn't refer to someone's beliefs as being a fairytale. I certainly wouldn't call a man like Jesus puny when he was a healer and still is.
I don't know how you can compare prayer with having a similar placebo effect as voodoo. Voodoo is harmful, prayer isn't. People that believe in voodoo create a mental state of being in a frenzy to accomplish their goal. Prayer doesn't create evil or a state of frenzy, nor does it stick pins in others. If you don't know about it or experienced the power of prayer and the good it does, how can you make statements as you do. Prayer is as simple as sun and rain and comes with no strings attached. It isn't a cold and lonely place for the people who pray for their love ones. It is a place of peace and refuge.
Their are Christians that use the Bible as a tool to get noticed and go out and do more harm then good because they don't understand faith and good deeds.
No doubt that there has been conflict in the church through the ages, but that is just people, not God.
24 months ago: Altruist,

You and Six have the same basic "logic"...

You won't believe the scientific truth if it leads to the God of the Bible, or if a Christian (no matter how scientifically accredited) publishes a discovery...
Wow boys, that's mighty bigoted of you.

Much of what we have established in science is as a result of religious people and their discovery, and from those who aren't, just because someone isn't a Christian, I don't discount their science if it is observable....

The Scientific 100:
A Ranking of the Most Influential Scientists, Past and Present
http://www.adherents.com/people/100_scie...
24 months ago: TB, why do you think that is? Could it be because even long ago only the religious sects had money to spend on researching humankind's reason for existence? It hasn't changed much, but now you want to use that as proof that their conclusions are more meaningful than others, that they carry more weight. All I want you to do is use non-religious research, research that is not designed from the beginning to prove the existence of a God or creation. Research that is designed to find the "why", not to find a "He done it". Anyone can do research, come to a hard to determine point and throw up their hands and say "It was a miracle" or "God did it".

Seems to me there was a somewhat famous guy in not to distant past who determined that the sun and stars did not rotate about the Earth. He was a religious man, paid by religious people and worked for a religious sect. They did not receive his findings very well because they contradicted their own religious beliefs that were hundreds if not thousands of years old.

Many other discoveries have been hidden or modified so as not to upset those with the purse strings in their hands, on both sides of this particular fence but I dare say that the hands holding the religious purse is much quicker to pull that purse closed than any other if the findings are not to their liking, plus they add all those religious consequences just to make a scientist bleed a little more, if he is left alive that is.

Maybe if you beseech your God you will be granted a long enough life to personally observe happen what you don't believe did/does happen. Some of the things you want to be proven with an observable experiment are not possible with our short lifetimes and since the evidence presented so far is not acceptable to you, your only way to disprove them is to stick around and set up an experiment and watch it to it's conclusion in a few million years.

That or humans need to grow a third eye or pigs get human speech without scientific interference. I think it will be less noticeable though, unless you are here now and here then.

Strange that you have to have non-religious science in an "observable" form before you will believe it and then you take Biblical stories at face value without any chance of observing it being repeated again to prove it's validity.
24 months ago: Six,

The problem getting people to do your so-called "non-religious research" is that being Atheists they consider the science facts and become Christians! Like Lee Strobel, a famous reporter from the Chicago Tribune. Here is an interview he had with a long time Atheist Anthony Flew - "The Honest Ex-Atheist"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbyTwmaJA...

24 months ago: Isn't that one of the goals? To achieve understanding of what you/they are seeing. Some go one way some go another, maybe there is a count out there of which way the science world is leaning after all these years of research.

There is always the old religious fallback about atheists, in the end they seek out another way or simply fade into the dust.
23 months ago: I don't care how you protest. There is no such thing as an atheist, and researchers have proven it in the past.
Huey Newton
Huey Newton
 Administrator
23 months ago: Altruist -

You are afraid to debate me.

Whenever I get you in a position you don't like, or catch supporting a position these days that is indefensible, you abandon ship. That's pretty sad and pathetic.

I used to think that you brought a reasonable albeit different perspective to the political side of things and that was good. Sometimes even on the religious front. However, YOUR rampant intolerance and overt religious bigotry and prejudice have been tainting just about everything you post these days or haven't you noticed?

"Christians tend to believe in some obscure things from the old testament that deplores homosexuality while Jesus didn't even mention the subject."

Jesus in the NT quoted GENESIS and stated that God created us MALE and FEMALE and that the two become "one flesh" in marriage.

Matthew 19:4-9; Mark 10:6-12

Those verses are hardly obscure.

Just say you disagree with JESUS rather than try to play games with The WORD. You are simply embarrassing yourself over and over again before anyone who has knowledge of these things. It makes you look either quite ignorant, quite deceptive or both.

Al, in closing on your current rabbit trail – Gay couples cannot become one flesh in the biblical way and therefore in the eyes of JESUS and God the Father they can NEVER be married. Period.

Two females cannot become one flesh and two men attempting to be are just plain perverted.

A homosexual partnership or union is not a marriage by Christian terms and NEVER will be.

The world can do what it wants but The WORD stands forever. Romans 3:4; Isaiah 40:8

I know that sticks in your craw, but that's the facts. Like it or lump it.
Altruist
Altruist
Eugene, OR
24 months ago: The Eight I'd Really Rather You Didn'ts


1. I'd Really Rather You Didn't Act Like A Sanctimonious Holier-Than-Thou **** When Describing My Noodly Goodness. If Some People Don't Believe In Me, That's Okay. Really, I'm Not That Vain. Besides, This Isn't About Them So Don't Change The Subject.

2. I'd Really Rather You Didn't Use My Existence As A Means To Oppress, Subjugate, Punish, Eviscerate, And/Or, You Know, Be Mean To Others. I Don't Require Sacrifices, And Purity Is For Drinking Water, Not People.

3. I'd Really Rather You Didn't Judge People For The Way They Look, Or How They Dress, Or The Way They Talk, Or, Well, Just Play Nice, Okay? Oh, And Get This Through You Thick Heads: Woman=Person, Man=Person. Samey-Samey. One is Not Better Than The Other, Unless We're Talking About Fashion And I'm Sorry, But I Gave That To Women And Some Guys Who Know The Difference Between Teal And Fuchsia.

4. I'd Really Rather You Didn't Indulge In Conduct That Offends Yourself, Or Your Willing, Consenting Partner Of Legal Age AND Mental Maturity. As For Anyone Who Might Object, I Think The Expression Is Go F*** Yourself, Unless They Find That Offensive In Which Case They Can Turn Off The TV For Once And Go For A Walk For A Change.

5. I'd Really Rather You Didn't Challenge The Bigoted, Misogynist, Hateful Ideas Of Others On An Empty Stomach. Eat, Then Go After The B*******.

6. I'd Really Rather You Didn't Build multi million-Dollar Churches/Temples/Mosques/ Shrines To My Noodly Goodness When The Money Could Be Better Spent (Take Your Pick): A. Ending Poverty B. Curing Diseases C. Living In Peace, Loving With Passion, And Lowering The Cost Of Cable. I Might Be A Complex Carbohydrate Omniscient Being, But I Enjoy The Simple Things In Life. I Ought To Know. I AM The Creator.

7. I'd Really Rather You Didn't Go around Telling People I Talk To you. You're Not That Interesting. Get Over Yourself. And I Told You To Love Your Fellow Man, Can't You Take A Hint?

8. I'd Really Rather You Didn't Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You If You Are Into, Um, Stuff That Uses Alot Of Leather/Lubrication/Las Vegas. If The Other Person Is Into It However (Pursuant To #4), Then Have At It, Take Pictures, And For The Love Of Mike, Wear A CONDOM! Honestly It's A Piece Of Rubber, If I Didn't Want It To Feel Good When You Did It I Would Have Added Spikes, Or Something.
24 months ago: Al, makes as much sense as the other religions, actually it makes more sense and would be a better for everyone if we all adopted FSM as our religion. Sure would do away with a lot of conflicts.
24 months ago: FSM - You mean Flying Spaghetti Monsters?
Oh Man, I don't know this language .

23 months ago: Al, as I said before. Don't you think that it is arrogant to think that there is no other power bigger than we are. How are we supreme with all our faults?
Huey Newton
Huey Newton
 Administrator
Content Removed by Huey Newton
Huey Newton
Huey Newton
 Administrator
24 months ago: What's funny is that most of this noise is divergent to the point TB makes in his initial post.


What the hell does the Inquisition have to do with the Second Law of Thermodynamics?


Some of the folks here have such short attention spans and habitually refuse to stay on topic. It's almost mind numbing.

How's this for rationality –

According to Altruist, admitted racist and eugenicist Margaret Sanger was trying to help poor blacks when she set up shops to exterminate them! How stupid is that?

Also Al, NONE of your views on Christianity are objective. Six has more honesty and objectivity in his little toe than you have in your whole body. You should learn some things from him. I have.

Also, all of your yang regarding Christianity is irrelevant. It comes from a dogmatic anti-religious bias brought about by bad experiences with Cathholicism and and overt anti-Semitism.

I tellin' you if I hear you call the Jews barbaric and savage one more time I'm going to throw up. As if your ancestors are any better or come from better stock. I guess yours is the most evolved race, right?

So after all that, we are now supposed to consider what the pseudo-Buddhist has to say on human relations and spirituality as being objective or being relevant? Please.

Bottom line: One has to be dumb as a stump not to consider this universe being created by intelligence and on purpose. Anyone who totally writes off even that possibility is an idiot. End of story.

Atheism is the most irrational philosophy on the planet. Hands down.

Atheists are moral parasites that steal values from other belief systems because they have no intuitive moral sense, and whatever morality they do possess is taught to them by a civilization that requires faith, not atheism.

An agnostic may be lost or finding their way, but at least they are still using their brain.
Huey Newton
Huey Newton
 Administrator
23 months ago: Any response Altruist??
Content Removed by Sunny1
24 months ago: I can only relate how by my experiences.
I knew a person who one day picked up the Bible as a so called Christian and attended a so called religious meeting and came out each time in a crazy state with high energy and an illusion of grandeur.
This person never was religious and shunned it but all of a sudden is holier than thou. They suddenly think they are walking high on a cloud and become demi gods among people because they are brainwashed into cults. Their minds are susceptible to weakness instead of strength and use the Bible as a crutch to make them stronger because they aren't strong people. Usually these people tend to be very vain but can't get enough attention. This is real good for them now as they are in the limelight. They talk in tongue like nut cases. It is fake.
I've seen them act cruel to their parents and loved ones that are vulnerable to them trying to indoctrinate. They are insensitive and make others go through a living nightmare. These same people seek and want credit and lie about how good they are to others while all along they torture people. That is a difference in intelligence and ignorance.
I was invited to a religious meeting by a friend during Christmas, and I didn't expect to experience what I did. I found that alll along the purpose was to get hold on my child to bring them into that faith. Some woman who I didn't know put her hands on my child's shoulders and starts saying some crap. When I saw this, all hell broke loose. Here are people who know half of nothing trying to spread that ignorance around.
I see other children that never had any religious upbringing fall victim to these groups even in collleges. That's why I say better to have something solid then nothing at all because this can result in a life of disillusion and they should be prepared in some way.
If something is meant for the good, then what's the difference. If I help someone in need, and I am a Christian that's my role in life.
Whatever we are, if we happen to be Christian, athiest, Jewish or any other faith, it is our intentions that should be witnessed, not our religious choices.
24 months ago: I don't know why it is so complicated.
24 months ago: Imagine a computer running us all.
How sad is that?
24 months ago: Is a triplet of crosses so different from a fat bellied man? The image of a woman on a wall so different than from a cow? Cast no stone lest you be buried under a mountain of pebbles.

The good thing is the fat bellied man didn't condone or endorse forced conversion to his way of thinking, unlike most religions of the past and present.

It is complicated because someone desired power over their fellow humans and thought up a way to get it and keep it and exploit it. Made it quite profitable too.

Doesn't it? A computer is electrical signals being manipulated by a program, many names for them, a brain is electrical signals being manipulated by a program called consciousness.

Religious people see things differently than others, sometimes they wear blinders and don't see as much as those who are not religious because to see would be to know and to know would shatter some of the foundations of their religion, so no, religious people do not see more, they see less.

It is by design of the religion that it's adherents do not see all, do not even know all, even of their own religion. Have you ever been granted access to the information stored in the Vatican's huge, restricted access storage vault? No and you never will, nor will many researchers who desire to read many of the manuscripts hidden there. Too many secrets to keep hidden to allow the real story to escape.
24 months ago: I got tired reading everything today.
Six, yes they have gone into the Vatican's vault not too long ago.
One of the top journalist was invited and did a report on it.
I find it interesting.
I was kidding about budda. I knew someone would say that about the crosses. My fault. I let myself in for that.
I find the Buddist Monks wise and in tune with life.
I find the cross, my savior, to follow or carry until I die.
That's how meaningful it is to me. I don't want to talk about that.
Not for anything just out of respect.
24 months ago: Think of this, what would your response be if someone had made light of your reverence for the cross? My thinking is you would have responded quickly and vehemently, completely unlike a Buddhist......
24 months ago: I wouldn't care because I am so firm in my beliefs I am unshakable. I don't know anyone who would do that. If they were like that, I probably would not be around them long.
I don't know what vehemently is. I never responded that way to anyone. I don't have that in me to do that.
With you, I go back and forth, but this is RR.
You make a good point though.
24 months ago: I guess since you don't know what it means would be a good reason that you don't know that you do, often.
Content Removed by Sunny1
23 months ago: Six, I'm also sorry you feel that way.
23 months ago: It means you have feelings. You must feel strongly to continue debate, the trick is to not let how strongly you feel show too much in what you write.

Vehement: Characterized by forcefulness of expression or intensity of emotion or conviction

Better to be that than dull as a rock.
23 months ago: Well think of this I have to see and hear bashing of my God constantly from you.
I was joking. No Buddhist Monk would be mad, they would probably laugh.
They are stick in the muds. You don't have to speak for them.
23 months ago: correct to say they aren't stick in the muds I'm sure. Somebody somewhere has to have humor.
24 months ago: I believe in science. Who made the scientist?

For example: If physically I can't see microscopic cells or anything else that is around me that is unseen by the naked eye, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist because I can't see it. I know it is there.
Same way with God. Do I have to see Him to believe in Him? I believe in science my daughter is a scientist, and she believes in God.
24 months ago: Sorry I didn't see that someone else brought that subject up.
24 months ago: I don't understand why everyone is complaining about religion.
If you don't believe, so what.
I believe and all good things come to me.
I wonder why?
24 months ago: The search for truth takes many roads.

Don't take questioning as complaining, complaining is when someone objects to laws being passed for religious reasons and stuff like that.

I don't know why. Luck? Fate? Karma?
24 months ago: Yes it does because it depends on the kind of truth one is searching for.
I don't really have to search for truth. I'm contented with what I know.
Some people are never comfortable with the knowledge that we have at hand and try to find answers that aren't there right now. So we wait.
Can't change that. Whether we are religious or not, we still have to wait.

24 months ago: I am not satisfied with the answers, from either side, but since I was told that magic was supposed to be bad, can't go with the religious side and miracles and a multitude of other points that even though the evidence is sitting in front of them, the religious deny it as real, saying it was created along with everything else 6,000 or so years ago, all put there to confuse the doubters, which to me, is just another story told to cover up the facts because they don't have an answer either that doesn't rely on solely faith.

But do we have to kill each other over it while we wait?
Content Removed by Sunny1
23 months ago: Six I don't see a miracle as magic. Magic is smoke and mirrors. It is meant to fool and it is trickery.
Miracles are real. They are a phenomenon. What evidence is there showing that it doesn't occur? There isn't any.
The word faith is just what it implies. Believing without seeing and without any explanation needed. I don't think anyone is trying to confuse the doubters. Doubters need to ask questions.
Do you really think that people look forward to going to war and killing another human? Wars are forced upon people and guided by misguided political power. America doesn't go out intentionally to start wars. We do what we have to do. Sometimes we aren't right about decisions. We would be extinct if we didn't defend ourselves against evil invasion over the good of all. You would know that because you are a vet. Given a choice to kill, I don't think there would be many takers. It is against nature. Most people aren't savages. Although, there are a lot of bad sickos out there ready to destroy families, take our children, rob us blind. It goes on and on. That is a war in itself that we have to fight right here because it destroys and kills others. So how do we fight it. They are put in prison if they are caught to live out their entire life with a roof over their head and 3 square meals a day. Which is worse?

23 months ago: Six, we have to wait because we haven't gone that far. There is a lot more to discover and centuries to go before we have any answers. As you said, and I believe, that our life span isn't that long to learn that much to make a dent in the mysteries of life out there and pass it on to new generations. It is a slow process. We are probably as archaic as those way before us, but don't know it. So we are stuck waiting.
23 months ago: Actually in some ways we are so far behind our ancestors that it would take a catastrophic event to reset life so we could relearn what they knew about how to live on this planet.
Huey Newton
Huey Newton
 Administrator
23 months ago: You got that right.

Some folks have gotten so smart, they are stupid.

We don't get do-overs, but a re-set sounds like a great idea to me.
23 months ago: Every hear the phrase "Like magic" when referring to slight of hand? Slight of hand is smoke and mirrors, magic is something that occurs and can not be explained through technical terms and drawings as used in slight of hand, nor through scientific terms or even medical terms. Miracles are magic because they can not be explained without the use of terms like "God did it", "It was supernatural", or "a supernatural being did it" or any other such explanation.

Don't believe I ever said it doesn't occur, I differ on the why. Example: hasn't rained for several months, everyone prays and prays and prays to their God for rain. Tropical storm forms and pushes wet air across the planet and it rains for a little while. Was that a miracle? If it was, why didn't it happen BEFORE all the crops died? Before all the cattle were slaughtered because they had nothing to eat? A true miracle as the result of prayer to a God happens when it is needed and it happens on time to be helpful, not months afterward, not after the disaster has happened.

Right now there are billions of people of all faiths praying for something, many just for a mouthful of food. By the end of the day many of them will be dead because they did not get a mouthful of food. Where is the justice, where is the benevolence in this? I've watched thousands of people pray for someone to get well, someone to be rescued, the rain to stop, the rain to start, there are millions of examples. Do you know how many of those prayers were answered? Truly answered right then, right there? Zero. Do you know what the religious person's answer is? "Not Gods Will"

Talk about a cop out. That is all that can be offered? Not His will? Our little bit of the world will end when Yellowstone blows another big hole in the ground and blots out the sun for a few years. Will a god of any faith cause a miracle and stop it? none have come forward to date and none will ever come forward to rescue anyone.

Unfortunately there are those who look forward to killing under the guise of war. They actually enjoy it, makes them feel superior to others. As for being against nature, I guess you haven't seen many nature videos, there is killing left and right, kind of how the members of "nature" survive.

Confuse the doubter and then they get flustered and then they can be reprogrammed to think your way. That is how religions get converts.
23 months ago: People cause other people to suffer. God doesn't do it. People are responsible for their actions. We don't have to have a world were some go hungry and others don't. It is selfishness that determines the cause of hunger and poverty.
You may think a prayer isn't answered but every single prayer is. We may not like the answer, but we have to put that first effort forth to change things for us. It is like anything else. You have to show you want to make a change for the better. Some things that we might pray for can be wrong for us. People start wars, not God. People are killed in wars, God didn't take a gun and kill them. People did. You make me tired today.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
23 months ago: I've had prayers answered right there right then. Most people don't know how to pray.
Huey Newton
Huey Newton
 Administrator
23 months ago: Please don't let any of that keep you from praying.
Huey Newton
Huey Newton
 Administrator
23 months ago: ...Sixer.
23 months ago: Good for you Box. You acknowledge your prayers were answered.
23 months ago: You got that right Truth. No heaven no hell mentioned.

23 months ago: Truth, if "your" or the Bible Genesis was so perfect why is there such difficulty in the world? Seems a perfect creation would have resulted in everything being idealistic, everyone would look about the same, there would be no fat, no thin, no deformed, no, well you get the picture. Since it wasn't created, it formed, it evolved, it came into being from matter, it isn't perfect and it must continue to evolve. Might die before it finishes but none of us will be here to see it.

Now your going to say God gave man free will and Adam and Eve sinned and that is why it is not perfect anymore. That excuse doesn't fly any better than a wet sheet of paper. It leaves out everything but man and the rest of the physical world is not even close to perfect. Oh it would get by in its way if man disappeared, but things are not perfect.
23 months ago: Perhaps God will answer you if you pray.
Content Removed by Sunny1
23 months ago: Six, What do you think God is going to come down and make every decision for us and lead us by the hand instead of making us learn and thrive on our own. Just like any great teacher makes you learn most of it is through your own efforts.
Again the world is difficult because of people's actions. Don't you see that?
There is an intelligence far beyond ours that is in control. Why not? Everything around us is under control and not floating around in chaos. It is all orderly. Man destroys it all. But, no, God did it. Blame it on a being that people love. That's not even intelligent thinking. It is so obvious to those who understand it. Pray a little and see what happens.
23 months ago: Wouldn't that be nice, a real live, personal visit with an imaginary being. I think I'd be locked up shortly thereafter.

Now you got it! MAN has to fix the problems and quit wasting time praying to imaginary beings to correct all the ills of the world. But if man has to do the fixing, why are all of you praying to a God who doesn't answer your prayers? No, just because you prayed for guidance and woke up the next day with a plan forming in your head is not Godly intervention, it is called your sub-conscious and it works while you sleep and no, it still isn't God, because people who never heard of your or any other God have the same things occurring to them without praying or anything religious going on in their lives.

Please don't spout the "Its God Will" litany, it doesn't work, it is a fallback position with nothing but platitudes for support.

I know of a devout family in another state that is trying to console itself and probably saying "It was God will that our six year old daughter died the other day". Strange how those farm accidents kill those you love for no reason other than Gods will. Give me one reason your benevolent God would kill a six year old?
23 months ago: Six,

IF there was no God, then it is your merciless evolution that killed that little girl, however seeing as that's not possible... I can see your point. Now, God has provided all means for this world and the next... even you can see that. And seeing as an Almighty God is responsible, we will let Jesus answer that...

"Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me. In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am... Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." (John 14:1-3, 6)
23 months ago: But how long will she have to suffer in your Hell? She wasn't a Catholic so not baptized shortly after birth which is supposed to save her and she wasn't old enough for other Christian religions confession and baptism. According to things I have read here on RR, she is condemned forever in Hell. There is no in between, it is one or the other. The only thing evolution had to do with it was we evolved far enough to make tractors and bushhogs.

Then there is always the atheist oblivion or what ever comes after life that is not predicated on religious belief.

Of course that statement kind of blows the single entity belief out of the water, again.
23 months ago: My my Six...

ONLY those who reject salvation have a problem...

"Jesus called them to him, saying, "Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of God." (Luke 18:16)

Here is some light reading for you to "skim over" because you didn't get your conclusions from any Christian here on RR...

Greg Laurie: The Unforgivable Sin
http://www.rantrave.com/Rant/Greg-Laurie...
23 months ago: Six,

There is a huge difference between those who don't believe and those who won't. I did the math one day on the so-called billions that are "beyond salvation" ...it may surprise you. I will show a few scriptures and show you what I mean...

1) Children and their place in the kingdom of God...
"...27% of the world's population is below 15 years of age"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_popul...
"...but Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 19:14)

2) The "ignorant" and their place in the kingdom of God...
"...50% of the world's population has never heard the Gospel"
http://www.chick.com/reading/books/print...
"Jesus said to them, "If you were blind, you would have no guilt; but now that you say, 'We see,' your guilt remains." (John 9:41)
...50% Unreached (ignorant adults) + 27% (children) = 77% N/A

3) The question then is out of the 33% of those who have heard of Jesus, how many have witnessed a miracle or been convicted by the Holy Spirit?
...33% of the world's population is considered to be "Christian" ...of which we can subtract those counted as adherents to the "faith" by family status or culture and citizenship to so-called "christian" nations... or have rejected the valid testimony of Jesus Christ clearly visible in their lives.

"If I had not done among them the works that no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin, but now they have seen and hated both me and my Father." (John 15:24)

...so before you disregard God for being "immoral" and for unfounded judgement, saying our God is sending everyone to Hell... you might want to consider, that you may be part of only a few left "standing outside" shaking their fists at a loving very merciful God... who has "gone the extra mile" Himself to save the world.

It is NOT those who DON'T believe... but those who WON'T!
23 months ago: No. Man has to have faith so that we can live together in heaven.
Everything here is a test of faith.
Man hinders the life of others by his actions. We pray to God for guidance, protection, and the ability to live our lives to the fullest.
Life is fragile and we are all vulnerable and prayer is a part of our continued existence. If you pray for good things and good things happen and life goes in the direction you want, then you are doing something right. I don't think we have to prove something to be true. It is pretty arrogant to think we are the only thing that matters on this earth, and there is no supreme being overseeing us.
As far as diseases and children dying, when the cures are found by man, this will end children dying. Again, the cures, the knowledge are out there for man to discover to prolong life and end disease. It has already been provided, but we have to earn our way by working toward finding answers. In fact, just as you are doing.
23 months ago: Here and other places. I won't go look for the reference but I did read it here on RR. Wasn't what I expected to hear, but since it was said, it just further solidified my position on rejection of religion.

Nothing you can send me will reverse what I have already read and heard and experienced on that general attitude of Christians toward children.

You personally may not feel that way, but you have a few billion other Christians to convince and your first stop is those that believe in "original sin". And then you have to work on the other religions that believe in your God, namely the Islamic.

Other than the consequences you fear, what problem would I have for rejecting Christian salvation? Doesn't affect my ability to work, my marriage, my ability to be a parent, my morality, my ability to dream, my...... basically it has nothing at all to do with my life, how I live it or how it will end. Take away the fear of what you claim is coming in the end and there is nothing but free time and money to save to gain by simply not having a religion.
23 months ago: IT is not my fault some don't read their own instruction manual... that said, even though there is "original sin" ... sin is not imputed where there is no law... so those who are "ignorant" or children aren't held accountable. I know this is a bit much to grasp, but it is all covered in the next passage in Romans 5...

"12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— 13for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.

15But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.

18Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

20The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." (Romans 5:12-21)
23 months ago: Well, if some modern understanding of Biblical prophesies are correct, you won't have to worry about going to hell... it will be coming to you! God is about to give our nations what they desire and what they deserve... a Godless government. And that my friend will affect your cozy life... and your children's future.
23 months ago: Truth, if "your" or the Bible Genesis was so perfect why is there such difficulty in the world? Seems a perfect creation would have resulted in everything being idealistic, everyone would look about the same, there would be no fat, no thin, no deformed, no, well you get the picture. Since it wasn't created, it formed, it evolved, it came into being from matter, it isn't perfect and it must continue to evolve. Might die before it finishes but none of us will be here to see it.

Now your going to say God gave man free will and Adam and Eve sinned and that is why it is not perfect anymore. That excuse doesn't fly any better than a wet sheet of paper. It leaves out everything but man and the rest of the physical world is not even close to perfect. Oh it would get by in its way if man disappeared, but things are not perfect.
23 months ago: Six,

I am going to say God has created this world perfect, sin did affect it, however God knew that would be the case so He created it temporal as well. The next time He makes a new Heaven and Earth... it will be permanent. But here is an accurate mind bender for you to contemplate from the Bible, see if you can figure it out...

"...we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal." (2 Corinthians 4:18)
23 months ago: My mind is not bent. Not even confused. Temporal or worldly temporary affairs, and eternal, or spiritual, are not concepts I have a problem with, it's what goes on in between.
Huey Newton
Huey Newton
 Administrator
23 months ago: Imagination is not a bad thing. Anyone who contemplates the existence of God or a Creator MUST imagine.

Don't fight it. Embrace it and ride it out.
23 months ago: I'll bite. What goes on in between?
23 months ago: Constant bickering over who is following the right religion to the point of killing each other over it. Been going on for thousands of years and still can't agree.

Expect thousands of more years of bickering and death and destruction because those that are religious can not, will not, agree.
23 months ago: But they don't have to imagine a religion to go with it.
23 months ago: Six,

Believe it or not, we are just having a civil conversation... pretty amazing huh? And nobody had to die because of it either !:]
23 months ago: It isn't those that are religious. Those groups of people don't understand what religion is because it is something else that they are searching for. They don't do anything out of the goodness of their heart for humanity. Christianity is based on peace. They were the ones that were slaughtered for their beliefs in God and goodness.
Huey Newton
Huey Newton
 Administrator
23 months ago: Religion sucks!

And like TB said, no one has died or been killed during this entire discussion (other than Altruist).
Huey Newton
Huey Newton
 Administrator
23 months ago: Without imagination a man or woman might as well be dead.

They are just breathing up otherwise useful atmosphere.
23 months ago: He actually talks to me sometimes.
Content Removed by Sunny1
23 months ago: Six, There will always be sick minds that will exploit religions for their own purposes. This is what starts wars and makes it bad for other solid meaningful faiths. Let's hope that Truth isn't right about God coming down on us. The meaness in the world is taking it over, but we can't give in or give up the fight to keep it down. These sick people spread their hate like a disease and cause conflict all over the world. I don't see it here. Everyone no matter what their religion is on the same page and looking for the same good things even though there are questions. We don't have all the answers, but we have something that will guide us through that is good. Whether people call it a fairytale or anything else, it is pretty strong medicine to see how much order there is.
23 months ago: I know who I am, and it isn't religion that drives me. Jesus set an example, and I follow. He is the best example. I care about other people. I always did and I would do anything for anyone who appreciated me, or even didn't.
Six has freedom to think and react the way he wants to. That's his right.
I won't compromise my beliefs by listening to things that are destructive because I'm not destructive. Many people don't understand Christianity and that's their right. Only thing, don't knock what you don't know. We are careful not to hurt others, but it isn't the same from them. Some of these atheist turn out to be the best believers in God.
23 months ago: Your religion should guide you, the ones whose religion drives them are protesting in the streets and killing innocents all over the world.

Debate is not intended to be destructive, it is intended to bring understanding between those of differing views. There are winners and losers, but they are still alive and kicking when it's all said and done, hopefully with a new view of the other side.

I could say the same thing, shall I? Sure. Don't knock what you haven't tried! Also, I have tried it your way, left me wanting answers.
23 months ago: But an atheist has nothing to try. So, I am suppose to try having less than nothing?
Debate is suppost to bring understanding except when you call people cows.