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Scientology: A sex boost you can use.

Posted 38 months ago|195 comments|4,246 views
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The most telling advances in the understanding of human sexuality have been provided by the work of the humanitarian, L Ron Hubbard.

Mr Hubbard described the principle of survival as it relates to the Eight Dynamics – the spheres of survival in the universe. All of the dynamics are essential to survival. The First Dynamic concerns the individual and the Second Dynamic concerns creativity and procreation.

However, with procreation comes sex, and with sex often comes confusion and problems for the non-Scientologist.

Mr Hubbard discovered the source of these problems through research on the Second Dynamic through the whole track of spiritual experience.

These discoveries that help us know sex with certainty. These discoveries are not theories or opinions, they are provable electronic facts.

Considering that most people are ignorant of these facts, it is no wonder that sex, for most people, is a mystery and secret source of misery. As Mr Hubbard observed, lovers are very seldom happy.

Perhaps the most important of Mr Hubbard's discoveries is that pain and sex are used as tools of degradation by destructive beings who try to cut others' alertness, knowingness, power and reach.

This same impulse to suppress knowingness is evident in all criminals who seek to suppress any of the dynamics.

Writing of psychiatrists who cause more harm than good, Mr Hubbard says that “Under the false data of the psychs (who have been on the track a long time and are the sole cause of decline in this universe) both pain and sex are gaining ground in this society and, coupled with robbery which is a hooded companion of both, may very soon make the land a true jungle of crime.”

The knowingness that Scientology helps to provide is the key out of that jungle of crime and degredation.

Ideal Sex

The majority of sexual problems have, for a long time, been caused by psychiatrists, so it is no use going to psychiatrists for help.

The techniques of Scientology can be applied to ensure a strong marriage. The key is communication, and the keys to communication, are reality and affinity.

It is this mastery of communication that makes Scientologists the greatest of actors. While Scientologists are some of the greatest heart-throb actors, and are frequently called upon to portray adultery, violence, and sex outside marriage as the norm, and for entertainment this is not their reality. The home lives of Scientologists are a reflection of their spiritual principles. Great sex is a product of a great relationships that Scientology can help individuals achieve.

Some people have tried, for their own purposes to paint Scientology as prescriptive of sexuality or as anti-homosexuality. This is plainly not true. Mr Hubbard declared that it had it has never been any part of his plans to regulate or to attempt to regulate the private lives of individuals.

The allegedly anti-homosexual content of Scientology has to be looked at in the context of the times in which they were written. In the 1940s - 1950s most people in western countries considered homosexuality to be an illness.

To the extent that an individual regards their sexuality as a problem, or hindrance to procreation, Scientology can provide the tools needed to provide rehabilitation by running off the desires to be an effect, and to be at cause over sexuality.

Do you want to know more? Check out the links.
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COMMENTS
FaithMyStrength
FaithMyStrength
Cape Neddick, ME
38 months ago: I started hearing a lot of hubub over Tom Cruise and Scientology, and while I don't quite understand the terms it struck a chord with me. As a Christian concerned about family values, this was like a breath of fresh air:

"The sexual pervert (and by this term Dianetics, to be brief, includes any and all forms of deviation in dynamic two such as homosexuality, lesbianism [sic], sexual sadism, etc., and all down the catalog of Ellis and Krafft-Ebing) is actually quite ill physically."

"At 1.1 on the tone scale, we enter the area of the most vicious reversal of the second dynamic. Here we have promiscuity, perversion, sadism and irregular practices."

Our sick culture is constantly trying to undermine traditional family values, and I applaud the Church of Scientology. They say it like it is. Its sickening how the gay agenda tries to indoctrinate our children with their perversions and now they even try to infiltrate our churches! It's sick! Thank God there are still some out there who won't let their faith be tainted by immorality and godlessness as "alternative lifestyles". Is it true that Scientology has found a better way to cure homosexual perversions than Exodus International?
38 months ago: "The allegedly anti-homosexual content of Scientology has to be looked at in the context of the times in which they were written. In the 1940s - 1950s most people in western countries considered homosexuality to be an illness."

So Hubbard was wrong? Is that what you're saying Jack? Because anything and everything Scientology exists because of one man, and that is L Ron Hubbard. Scientology puts homosexuals at 1.1 on the tone scale, considering them deviants and subhuman. That's Hubbard.

Therefore, Scientology and L Ron Hubbard are not allegedly anti-homosexual. They ARE anti-homosexual.

In addition: Scientology deems all physical intimacy (not just sex) outside of marriage to be out ethics, a serious crime worthy of placing someone into the Rehabilitation Project Force which is little more than a slave labor camp. Parents are forced to be separated from their children, pregnant women in the Sea Org are coerced into having abortions, and an individual's sexuality is repressed in an Orwellian manner to gain control over them.

And just WHAT is an electronic fact? FLUNK, Jack.
An Observer
An Observer
Garrettsville, OH
38 months ago: I love how the article says "Mr Hubbard discovered" which really means "Mr Hubbard read a book on the subject" and claims it as his own discovery. It's sad to see people get sucked into a cult like Scientology without actually doing a little research first
Scientia
Scientia
England
38 months ago: The problem with Scientology to "outsiders" is that some of it's materials (which were written in the early days of it's development) make little or no reference to later developments or discussions. The early LRH references regarding homosexuality are certainly negative (such as the "Dianetics" quotes above) but those who have continued their studies, and have a broader knowledge and understanding of the whole subject, know full well that Hubbard's viewpoint significantly changed on this issue as the nature and history of the 'thetan' (spirit) was further realised. It was as far back as 1967 that the Church issued non-discrimination policies regarding sexual preferences, because of this.

But yes, it is confusing to the newcomer, as later research or discussions are not often referred to in the earlier publications still available today. It would be in the Church's interest to address this issue asap as continued failure to do so will only result in yet more misunderstanding and prejudice.
38 months ago: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_and_Scientology
A 1972 book elaborated upon Hubbard's views, continuing to describe homosexuals as 1.1
He did in fact cancel his previous orders in 1967. However, the Sea Org continues to be HEAVILY regulated by a 1978 order that enforces strict punishments such as sec checks and RPF status.

Sure, public scientologists are relatively free, but the ultimate goal is to get everyone on staff, get them all into the Sea Org, and control every aspect of their lives.

To get an unbiased view of Scientology and Sex, a good starting place is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology_and_sex
Frederick
Frederick
Canada
38 months ago: It's too bad National Lampoon isn't in print anymore. YOu could work for them. That is one of the funniest articles I have read in weeks.
GaryDM
GaryDM
New York, NY
38 months ago: Following Dianetics, Hubbard's book "Science of Survival" and its accompanying recorded lectures (available, and translated into many languages), expanded his original discoveries, which included further insight into sex (itimacy). (By mid-1951, thousands of people were using Dianetics to creducing traumas causing unwanted conditions, and many discovered that the underlying cause occurred in a past life.)

The way two immortal beings (using physical bodies) showed love / affection could be at a very high level of creativity and positive spiritual energy or descend a dwindling spiral to degradation and an open (or hidden) desire to cause (through sex / intimacy) the degradation of self or another.

How this dwindling spiral occurred and the exact procedures to solve it is part of the vast subject of Scientology ("knowing how TO KNOW!) which is comprised of Hubbard's 5,000+ written publications and 3,274 recorded lectures, the basic books and lectures are translated into 50+ languages.
FaithMyStrength
FaithMyStrength
Cape Neddick, ME
38 months ago: See? This is just what I mean, and look how quick they are to jump on anything that dares question their "lifestyle". They try to say everyone else is "sexually repressed" because we don't share their taste for perversion, that not agreeing with them is "prejudiced and oppressive" but when we disagree they are utterly shameless. It's "Orwellian" to uphold traditional family values are you out of your mind? I can tell it's leftist radicals too because they're always saying everything that disagrees is "Orwellian" but Lord help the blind should we dare oppose them indoctrinating our child with their sick agenda.

All you godless people have to offer is exageration and insane tinfoil accusations against religion, no wonder you hide because you're too ashamed to show yourself. The pitiful thing is some might believe your trash, accusing a Church of slave labor and your other conspiracy theories and slander. Find Jesus and repent of your sins "Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do." Luke 23:34
Robyn13
Robyn13
Beverly Hills, CA
38 months ago: This piece is HYSTERICAL. Were you trying to be funny? It IS a spoof, right?

If not, please direct me to a link for those "provable electronic facts." This should be good.

Robyn13
Robyn13
Beverly Hills, CA
38 months ago: @"Findmystrength" On the off chance that you aren't a $cientologist, are you aware of what Hubbard had to say about Jesus? He referred to Jesus as a "pedophile" and "lover of young boys".

And Christ? "The man on the Cross, there was no Christ"

How do you like them apples?
FaithMyStrength
FaithMyStrength
Cape Neddick, ME
38 months ago: @robyn13

Well, perhaps YOU would believe that, which says more about you than any devout Christian.
38 months ago: In Hubbard's own voice: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrMJUDkDWqc - can be found in Class 8 Auditor's Course (Confidential), taped on the ship Apollo in Corfu, Greece

The "lover of young boys" is in OT7, which you probably haven't read yet.
GaryDM
GaryDM
New York, NY
38 months ago: Hubbard in his lecture "Hope of Man" absolutely acknowledges the spiritual importance and wisdom of Jesus Christ. That lecture is availalbe at:
http://classics.goldeneraproductions.org/en_US/lectures/pg004.html

After Jesus, changes were made to His core spiritual wisdom. The Public Broadcasting Station's documentary details how Chrisitianity as a organized religion developed. See,
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/
Robyn13
Robyn13
Beverly Hills, CA
38 months ago: I don't "believe" anything. Hubbard said it, not me. If you were a Christian you would be offended by those remarks. But of course you're not.

Now tell everyone again how "compatible" $cientology is with other religions.
Robyn13
Robyn13
Beverly Hills, CA
38 months ago: gary dear, Hubbard said no such thing. Your link is merely a site on which you're trying to sell your quackery. Perhaps you would care to post the exact quote you refer to in your post. You know, the one in which Hubbard supposedly acknowledges the "wisdom and spiritual importance of Jesus Christ".

Oh, and how about a link to those "proven electronic facts" while you're at it.
Scientia
Scientia
England
38 months ago: RE: "He did in fact cancel his previous orders in 1967."

That is simply not true. HCO PL 11 August 1967, "Second Dynamic Rules", is an active policy promoting non-discrimination, and has never been cancelled.

The book you refer to is NOT available through the CoS, and was never authored by Hubbard.

There are specific policies that only apply to Sea Org members, including those relating to ethical behaviour. But such is the dedication of the group, and those staff members within it. They do not promote discrimination, nor do they invalidate or cancel previous non-discriminatory policies. The Sea Org is analogous to the priesthood of the Catholic Church and comprises only a tiny percentage of those who actively study Scientology. I am not a Sea Org member, I do not wish to be a Sea Org member, and therefore any specific creeds and codes they choose to live by are completely irrelevant to me or my life =)
38 months ago: To FAITHMYSTRENGTH. As a christian, I would ask you to look at this link:
http://infinitecomplacency.blogspot.com/2009/03/11-claire-headleys-lawsuit-abortion.html

Still interested in giving scientology your support?
MikeMercer
MikeMercer
Glenn Dale, MD
38 months ago: Hubbard had three wives. The first two both filed charges against him for physical abuse. The third did jail time for stealing goverment documents about scientology.
Hubbard had three sons. the first (LRH jr. later Ron Dewolfe) said his father was insane. the second commited sucide or was murdered shortly after dad found out he was gay. The third has not been seen or heard from in several years.
If you want to more about scientology's "second dynamic" go to exscientologykids.org where survivors who have escaped scientology talk about it.
FaithMyStrength
FaithMyStrength
Cape Neddick, ME
38 months ago: @Marc Abfleet
I don't know what this is supposed to be, but there was a Christ who forgave us our sins. I don't understand your point or have any idea what R6 or OT7 or any of that means, but many people even Priests and Ministers have led lives of sin before letting Jesus into their hearts. Even Paul himself was an unbeliever who eventually found Jesus Christ and spread His Word.

And see I KNEW IT, the minute this article was posted you all somehow crowd in here to mock anyone who denies your "lifestyle choice" and it IS a CHOICE. I believe in family values and marriage as God intended, between man and wife, and to be fruitful and multiple. You have nothing to offer but sleaze and pornography, and you KNOW you're wrong which is why you hate it so much that there are people who remain true to the Word because it exposes your actions for the sin it truly is. That is why your agenda is to indoctrinate our children in schools, infiltrate our churches to force your twisted version of "open minded", and overwhelm anyone who disagrees.

Do you people sit around in teams searching for criticism or even just upholding family values? Turn from your ways, Jesus will still and always forgive.
38 months ago: You're fascinating, Faith. Is it traditional family values to force children as young as 12 to work in adult situations and environments? What about separating children from their parents from as young an age as possible while placing them in a quasi-militaristic environment shut off from the outside world (Cadet Org)? How about using children for slave labor? Human trafficking? Non-payment of wages? Punishment for critical thought or expression of doubt? You've so quickly jumped onto the bandwagon, and that's assuming you aren't actually one of the regular riders.

I think you have an MU when it comes to "Orwellian".

P.S. Learn to quote. You're putting in quotes words and phrases that have been used by no one but you. I said "sexuality is repressed". That is NOT the same as "sexually repressed". Sexually repressed means an inability to express oneself sexually, ie. fear of intimacy, etc. Having your sexuality repressed means being placed into an environment where sexual expression is condemned or generally frowned upon, ie. you kiss someone in public and are reprimanded. The latter can cause the former, but they are not the same.
38 months ago: @Faith

I'm not gay. But it's also not a choice, but that's a topic for another time, and under another identity. You also have selectively failed to notice that several Scientology supporters are here as well. Just as we have descended upon this post, so have they. Like moths to the flame, they've come.

As to the point of those links, it's Hubbard denying Jesus ever existed.

Keep your Churches, keep your heavy handed beliefs that you wield from your high horse. You mean nothing, but exposing the con that is Scientology is everything. Anonymous does not hate religion because we are many and we are different. Scientology is a cult, however, and a dangerous one at that.

Anonymous doesn't give a crap about you.
Robyn13
Robyn13
Beverly Hills, CA
38 months ago: "The Sea Org is analogous to the priesthood of the Catholic Church"

WHAT? The only thing the Sea Org is analogous to is slave labor camps.

exscientologykids.org
MeowMacao
MeowMacao
Andorra
38 months ago: "The sexual pervert (and by this term Dianetics, to be brief, includes any and all forms of deviation in dynamic two [sexuality and procreation] such as homosexuality, lesbianism, sexual sadism, etc., and all down the catalog of Ellis and Krafft-Ebing) is actually quite ill physically." (L. Ron Hubbard, "Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health")

"At 1.1 on the tone scale we enter the area of the most vicious reversal of the second dynamic. Here we have promiscuity, perversion, sadism, and irregular practices…. People on this level on the second dynamic are intensely dangerous in the society, since aberration is contagious. A society which reaches this level is on its way out of history, as went the Greeks, as went the Romans, as goes modern European and American culture. Here is a flaming danger signal which must be heeded if a race is to go forward…. The person may claim to love others and to have the good of others as his foremost interest; yet, at the same moment, he works, unconsciously or otherwise, to injure or destroy the lives and reputations of people and also to destroy property… No social order which desires to survive dates overlook its stratum 1.1's. No social order will survive which does not remove these people from its midst…. Such people should be taken from the society as rapidly as possible and uniformly institutionalized; for here is the level of the contagion of immorality, and the destruction of ethics. .... "The only answers would seem to be the permanent quarantine of such persons from society to avoid the contagion of their insanities and the general turbulence which they bring to any order, thus forcing it lower on the scale, or processing such persons until they have attained a level on the tone scale which gives them value." (L. Ron Hubbard, "Science of Survival")
MikeMercer
MikeMercer
Glenn Dale, MD
38 months ago: @FaithmyStregnth.
The thread is about scientology. It is a made up religion that is used to cheat and enslave people.
You are defending people who would see Christianity wiped off the face of the earth.
Google scientology. You will be shocked and horrified at what you learn.
MeowMacao
MeowMacao
Andorra
38 months ago: "For those of you whose Christian toes I may have stepped on, let me take the opportunity to disabuse you of some lovely myths. For instance, the historic Jesus was not nearly the sainted figure has been made out to be. In addition to being a lover of young boys and men, he was given to uncontrollable bursts of temper and hatred that belied the general message of love, understanding and other typical Marcab PR. You have only to look at the history his teachings inspired to see where it all inevitably leads. It is historic fact and yet man still clings to the ideal, so deep and insidious is the biologic implanting." - L. Ron Hubbard, HCO BULLETIN OF 5 MAY 1980, C O N F I D E N T I A L STUDENT BRIEFING.
FaithMyStrength
FaithMyStrength
Cape Neddick, ME
38 months ago: Corruption happens. The Catholic Church is a good example, and many churches have had scandals because of indecent heads of the church. But then I look at Ted Haggard and wonder if these people are being sent to infiltrate churches to push acceptance of their perversion down our throats.

@Anonymous Voice
What a coincidence, more people here like buzzing flies. All of these things you claim sound slanderous like outright lies. Then you claim these bizarre conspiracy theories. Why do you so seriously think I will buy into your lunatic tinfoil theories? Human trafficking, slave labor, what kind of insane paranoid delusion is this?

And yes, I suppose you're right that we want nothing to do with your ever more sinful culture, but it's laughable that you exagerate it. Absurd things like "punishment for doubt" or losing our faith and being brainwashed by you, teaching responsibility to our children is "forced into adult situations" because we don't believe in a nanny state, and charity is "non-payment" because you only think in selfish greed and don't understand altruism. Let me know when your little team posts more entertraining conspiracy theories, I can only imagine what you'll make up. What's next, Jesus was mentally ill like all religious people? We're secretly plotting global domination and blackmailing politicians? Pot calling the kettle black. SOME of us believe in compassion still. Keep your sick sinful world.
Robyn13
Robyn13
Beverly Hills, CA
38 months ago: "Why do you so seriously think I will buy into your lunatic tinfoil theories? Human trafficking, slave labor, what kind of insane paranoid delusion is this? "

How long have you been a $cientologist?

www.xenu.net
MikeMercer
MikeMercer
Glenn Dale, MD
38 months ago: @Meow
"Corruption happens. The Catholic Church is a good example, and many churches have had scandals because of indecent heads of the church"

Theift, fraud, human trafficing and child labor are not "corruption" in scientology; they are Hubbard's policy.
It's just crime. always was. Any good that comes out of it is the "corruption" of scientology's intent.
FaithMyStrength
FaithMyStrength
Cape Neddick, ME
38 months ago: "Anonymous doesn't give a crap about you."
Of course you wouldn't, but talking in the third person makes you sound more ill than profound.

"It is a made up religion that is used to cheat and enslave people."
Of course. Because all religion is made up to you. With slave labor and genocide, yeah right. 20th century atheism under Stalin Hitler and Mao killed more people in a shorter time than any the rest of history.

"for here is the level of the contagion of immorality, and the destruction of ethics"
Yes, of course this gets under your skin because it's true. I agree with what's said there, and you don't, fine but don't shove your immorality down my throat.

"typical Marcab PR."
I have no idea what you're talking about, but is Marc Abfleet some reference to another leader of the homosexual agenda? You underestimate my intelligence. I don't need your patronizing attitude.

Does anyone have anything more than tinfoil and wild accusations? Thought not.
38 months ago: Faith, you should research Scientology before posting commens applauding then. This just shows your ignorance level.
MikeMercer
MikeMercer
Glenn Dale, MD
38 months ago: Q: What's the differenct between Sceintology and the Mafia?
A: The Mafia won't kill you in church.

But don't trust me. Ask the FBI, the APA, Germany, Israel, Kazikstan, these people all classify scientology as organized crime.
Google:
Operation Snow White
Operation Freakout
Whyaretheydead
Exscientologykids
Robyn13
Robyn13
Beverly Hills, CA
38 months ago: "Does anyone have anything more than tinfoil and wild accusations?"

"[The court record is] replete with evidence [that Scientology] is nothing in reality but a vast enterprise to extract the maximum amount of money from its adepts by pseudo scientific theories... and to exercise a kind of blackmail against persons who do not wish to continue with their sect.... The organization clearly is schizophrenic and paranoid, and this bizarre combination seems to be a reflection of its founder, L.Ron Hubbard."

"Scientology is both immoral and socially obnoxious...
It is corrupt sinister and dangerous. It is corrupt because it is based on lies and deceit and has its real objective money and power for Mr. Hubbard... It is sinister because it indulges in infamous practices both to its adherents who do not toe the line unquestionably and to those who criticize it or oppose it. It is dangerous because it is out to capture people and to indoctrinate and brainwash them so they become the unquestioning captives and tools of the cult, withdrawn from ordinary thought, living, and relationships with others."

-- Justice Latey, ruling in the High Court of London


Robyn13
Robyn13
Beverly Hills, CA
38 months ago: "In addition to violating and abusing its own members' civil rights, the organization over the years with its 'fair game' doctrine has harassed and abused those persons not in the church whom it perceives as enemies. " -Los Angeles Superior Court Judge Paul Breckenridge, June 1984, in the Gerry Armstrong case

".. .capable of such danger that the public interest demands that people should know what is going on " LORD DENNING
MikeMercer
MikeMercer
Glenn Dale, MD
38 months ago: @FaithMyStregnth

"Of course. Because all religion is made up to you"

I believe in one God; the Father Almighty; Maker of Heaven and Earth; of all things seen and unseen.

Happy Easter Sister. He is Risen.

You are being a fool.
FaithMyStrength
FaithMyStrength
Cape Neddick, ME
38 months ago: @robyn13
I have no idea what this xenu site is or how to make sense of it or why there's a clam and some masked man.

@MikeMercer
Oh sure, and I suppose churches "order" their priests to rape children. Your truly trapped in a sick mentality, because you're afraid. There is no fear in Jesus Christ our Savior, there is only love.

I used google, and some "Message to Scientology" thing caught my eye. A declaration of war on a church? And of course you never forgive, and deny the forgiveness of Christ. "We are Legion" "My name is Legion, for we are many" Luke 8:30

What demonic bent is this now? Is that why you're spreading your message of hate and sin and attacking churches? Why the Scientology Church? Maybe you're working your way up the denominations.
Robyn13
Robyn13
Beverly Hills, CA
38 months ago:
"Why the Scientology Church?"

Not a church. Cloaked in religion for tax purposes, to avoid fair labor laws and as a shield for when Hubbard's quackery kills.

I used google, and some "Message to Scientology" thing caught my eye. "

Yeah. sure it did.
38 months ago: Faith, why don't you join the Church of Scientology and become a SeaOrg member?
Robyn13
Robyn13
Beverly Hills, CA
38 months ago: "I also witnessed a fourteen year old boy being locked up in the
chain locker of the ship, where he was made to spend the night. The
chain locker is a small dark space where the chain to the anchor to
the ship is stored when the ship is not at anchor. I witnessed this
happening several times to people....

Hubbard claimed that the RPF was an act of benevolence on his part
to 'rehabilitate' psychotic criminals. Actually, in my opinion and
experience, the RPF was a prison camp.
-- Document written by Monica Pignotti, 9/26/89

"The four-year-old boy could no longer cry. He had been nearly 40
hours in the chain locker of the flagship Apollo and his entire
body was aching from his efforts to chip off rust. His knees and
hands were raw with cuts and bruises. His voice was raspy from
crying, and he was desperately afraid. He was constantly making
resolutions to never, never again eat the Commodores telexes--the
most recent crime of which he had been accused.
38 months ago: Faith, google Lisa McPherson. Here's another link that might be of interest to you.

www.whyaretheydead.net
FaithMyStrength
FaithMyStrength
Cape Neddick, ME
38 months ago: @Robyn13
"pseudo scientific theories... and to exercise a kind of blackmail against persons who do not wish to continue with their sect.... The organization clearly is schizophrenic and paranoid"
That kind of Judicial activism makes me so mad, but I know what you're doing and I will not curse you. You of course disagree with everything that isn't in line with your "theories" of evolution and immediately resort to calling religious people mentally ill and make up wild slanderous conspiracy theories. I believe in forgiveness, love, charity, faith, and a Godly lifestyle.

@MikeMercer
I've seen enough of your tinfoil hat ideas and websites with a hidden agenda against faith, or I guess trying to lure children and adults away from their faith. I know you like using "xtian" to refer to us Christians, so is "Xenu" a play on that? Christ-en-u? ONLY Jesus was the Christ, not any of these sugar coated New Age subversions hoodwinking people into believing "you're all Christ with Christ energy". This Hubbard sounds like a minister who turned his back on New Age teachings maybe that's why there's so many of you attacking on here.

I'm still astonished that you think I'll believe your lunatic tinfoil conspiracies.
Robyn13
Robyn13
Beverly Hills, CA
38 months ago: I really don't care what you believe.

Quite frankly you appear to be a bit of a paranoid nut yourself:


" refer to us Christians, so is "Xenu" a play on that?
Christ-en-u? "

Yeah, that's what it is *eye roll*

38 months ago: There is no attacking religion here because Scientology is not a religion by any means. DO YOUR RESEARCH!!!!!!!!!!
FaithMyStrength
FaithMyStrength
Cape Neddick, ME
38 months ago: @Robyn13 again
I have no idea where these twisted stories are coming from. Chain lockers on a ship? What are you even talking about? And for that matter what do all these acronyms mean and why do you expect me to have a clue what you're talking about?

@ray3005
That looks like another anti-faith website. No church would ever do that. Half of them are disappearances or suicides, and OF COURSE religion is to blame for that. I've said it again and again, your conspiracy theories are ridiculous. You sound like David Icke, that guy who thinks some people are serpent space aliens who invented religion or some paranoid tinfoil thing.

@Robyn13, again
"Yeah, that's what it is *eye roll*"
Sorry for not getting your subversive sense of humor and in-jokes.

@ray3005
"DO YOUR RESEARCH!!!!!!!!!!"
But YOU are the one making these insane sounding accusations against a church. You've provide no tangible, believable evidence, just a lot of confusing nonsense and paranoid slander based on circumstance, coincidence, and assumptions, if even that. YOU'RE the one making the claims, so back it up without resorting to slander or conspiracy theories. Stop being so condescending, I'm not stupid. Give me an intelligent, rational, clear explanation why you believe this and want me to believe it.
MeowMacao
MeowMacao
Andorra
38 months ago: "FaithMyStrength" = Scilon troll, i.e. a Scientologist pretending to be a Christian.
MikeMercer
MikeMercer
Glenn Dale, MD
38 months ago: FaithMyStregnth

Check your email. If you really are a Christian then do as I suggest.

Ask your own minister about scientology. It is the text-book example of a cult. They all learn about it in school.
38 months ago: Faith, by refusing to do the research first before defending Scientology just shows that you are a Scientologist pretending to be a Christian, as MeowMacao said.
MikeMercer
MikeMercer
Glenn Dale, MD
38 months ago: Content Removed by RantRave Admin
FaithMyStrength
FaithMyStrength
Cape Neddick, ME
38 months ago: @MeowMacao
Again, I have no idea what your denigrating lingo means. Are you attacking Christian Science right now too? You people seem to think you have a copywrite on the word "science" as if loveless materialism is the only way to question our world.

@MikeMercer
I read your e-mail but I don't believe in secrecy so I'll address this on an open forum. I do not know what "court documents" you're talking about or what this has to do with medical opinion, except this church seems to promote natural remedies which is fine by me. Yes of course I'm sincere, why would I lie on the internet? You're one to talk mister, I see you just joined today. I assume CoS means Church of Scientology, but OSA?

Look I'm tired of repeating myself, I have no idea what acronyms or lingo your using mean. What is me being "OSA"?

I'm sorry, but I don't agree with the world today. I don't agree with the homosexual agenda. I don't agree with the "pimp" lifestyle, disrespecting women, obsessing over "bling", fancy cars with fuzzy dice hanging from mirrors and fuzzy fur coats and cold steel guns, because these are the guys causing trouble in our communities. I looked around and this Scientology seems like a more fringe denomination, but I think you're doing this as a paranoid agenda. The anti-scientology stuff just seems weird, perverse, and sick, and I was shocked and appalled by some of the stuff I saw about this group. Are you part of this group? Why, WHY are you against this church with such perverted hatred?
38 months ago: Faith, it's very obvious you've already visited everyone single one of the links posted in this string. You've come back way too fast with comments about them, unless you are a speed reader. You must be training under Pat Harney. You're sounding just like her.
FaithMyStrength
FaithMyStrength
Cape Neddick, ME
38 months ago: "LRH was a drug addicted con man.
David Miscavage is a psychotic little latent homosexual.

Enjoy your rice and beans."
I have no idea what LRH means, who that guy is (another Ted Haggard I assume), and rice and beans? What??

ray3005
"by refusing to do the research first before defending Scientology just shows that you are a Scientologist pretending to be a Christian"

YOU ARE MAKING THE CLAIMS! What am I supposed to look up? What are you talking about? You give me acronyms and buzzwords I don't know and random qoutes or conspiracy theories. I am a Christian but I never said I'm that denomination, and I don't know why that particular denomination angers you so much except I see you attacking something that supports family values. Have any of you even read a single thing I've said, or are you just spamming your agenda? Is that the game you're playing, just spamming nonsense without listening? You people aren't making any sense and almost none of you addressed my questions and concerns.
38 months ago: Hahahahahaha. Funny!
38 months ago: Faith is a troll that is trying to waste your time.

DON'T FEED THE TROLL!
MeowMacao
MeowMacao
Andorra
38 months ago: Don't feed the troll. "FaithMyStrength" is 100% Scientologist.
38 months ago: Yes, I am making claims. And several commentors have given YOU plenty of links to research these claims. There is too much information to post here. You are turning a blind eye.

People can believe in whatever they choose to believe. I'm not against that. What I do have a problem with, like so many others, is the abuse, harrassment, brainwashing and deaths.

You keep saying "I have no idea". Until you have an idea you have no right to comment.
FaithMyStrength
FaithMyStrength
Cape Neddick, ME
38 months ago: I'm not going to give up, but you're all clearly uninterested in intelligent debate, just ignoring me and probably laughing at me with your in jokes. I don't know what a troll is, but I assure you I'm quite human and not an "elf" or "fairy" or "animal spirit" or "alien soul" or whatever weird stuff you people believe.

@Terryeo
It was both refreshing and confusing reading your profile and watching that video. I feel like I understand the faith better, but it was also incredibly vague. So Scientology is a modernized denomination? It said any religion, so is it Christian inspired teachings and applying Christ's philosophy in one's life whether they're secular or a different religion? Since these people clearly have zero concern for anyone else's point of view, can you explain the Church of Scientology to me?
38 months ago: Let the cult have FaithMyStrength.

"And nothing of value was lost"
bob dobbs
bob dobbs
Geneseo, NY
38 months ago: The allegedly anti-homosexual content of Scientology has to be looked at in the context of the times in which they were written. In the 1940s - 1950s most people in western countries considered homosexuality to be an illness.

Haha, most people? Psychiatrists considered it a mental illness in the 40's and 50's. So L Ron was in lock-step
with the evil "psychs"? That's nice to know.
38 months ago: Hatred of homosexuals is wrong no matter where, or what time frame it comes from. Scientologists are bigots who are working to deny these people their human rights. They also target Phyciatrists through their "CCHR" group, and have the stated aim of "The Global OBLITERATION of Phyciatry"

I judge based on ACTIONS, not propaganda. The Scientology branch in CA supported "Proposition 8" when it was introduced. Their name was on the supporters lists.
FaithMyStrength
FaithMyStrength
Cape Neddick, ME
38 months ago: So the wikipedia article was odd, but glancing through it it just sounds like a church that believes in the soul (not sure why they call it your "thetan" though). They seem to have drug and crime rehabilitation, which in my opinion is a better and more Christian approach than what society does. Turn the other cheek, forgive, and help them from darkness of sin and into the Light. What's wrong with that? I admit it does sound weird though, and wikipedia said something about reincarnation, but anyone can fill wikipedia with inaccurate information or lie.

Terryeo, are you a Scientologist? I'm confused, the videos on the official website sound like they're talking about nothing sometimes, or it sounds like self help or using religious inspiration, but it says it's a different religion. Does Scientology believe in Jesus Christ, yes?

And the rest of you, I just realized your hostility is probably trying to divide and drive apart those who maintain traditional values. That's probably why you all were so quick to call in backup here. You call me a liar. You accuse me of being "troll" or "OSA" and other accusations I don't even understand. You're hostile and it's like you can't even see your own poorly hidden malice.

You know, I really don't focus on demons much or about warding off evil spirits with incense or sage or holy water, but sometimes I truly wonder how possessed people are these days. But I will still pray for you and hope you find Jesus before it's too late.
FaithMyStrength
FaithMyStrength
Cape Neddick, ME
38 months ago: Mr. Dobbs I do not know what you're talking about, but perhaps you could elaborate. Half the people here think they can have me chasing them and buzzing around their random comments like a bee and somehow misled or distracted. I happen to have an attention span and I'm not going on a tangent.

louannelee, global obliteration what? I'm confused. "The Scientology branch in CA supported "Proposition 8" when it was introduced." Good. I support the sanctity of marriage. It's not traditional or "old fashioned" it's as God intended. I bet that ruffled the feathers of those leading deviant lifestyles. It's reassuring to know that some churches haven't fallen into sin.
MeowMacao
MeowMacao
Andorra
38 months ago: Oh, OK. Just in case you Scientologists missed it, here is a little piece of Scientology sacred text "OT-8" by L. Ron Hubbard.

"For those of you whose Christian toes I may have stepped on, let me take the opportunity to disabuse you of some lovely myths. For instance, the historic Jesus was not nearly the sainted figure has been made out to be. In addition to being a lover of young boys and men, he was given to uncontrollable bursts of temper and hatred that belied the general message of love, understanding and other typical Marcab PR. You have only to look at the history his teachings inspired to see where it all inevitably leads. It is historic fact and yet man still clings to the ideal, so deep and insidious is the biologic implanting."
Robyn13
Robyn13
Beverly Hills, CA
38 months ago: I can explain the "church":

Big fat global scam.

Silly $cilon trolls.
MeowMacao
MeowMacao
Andorra
38 months ago: FaithMyStrength, IF you are a Christian, which is unlikely, what I've posted above from OT-8 should shock you. If you are not a Christian, you will shrug it off, ignore it, or come up with some excuse/rationale for it.
38 months ago: I was raised Baptist and married Catholic. I have children. I strongly believe in God and traditional family values. Scientologists can believe in God, Allah, voodooism, Xenu or whatever they choose to believe. That is not the issue here.

The issue is the way they treat their staff/parishioners and the way they scam money out of people for auditing and to cross the "Bridge to Total Freedom". Some of those suicides you mentioned earlier....most of them were triggered by their dwindling bank accounts and harrassment from Scientology for more money. How would you like to be declared a "suppresive person" and be disconnected from your family, never to speak to them again?
38 months ago: Faith, I just wanted to say thank you. From the bottom of my heart, thank you.

Either you are really a Scientologist faking being a Christian, in which case you're made of fail and have only succeeded in having us list NUMEROUS sources for REAL people to go to and get informed while trying to spread black PR.

OR you really just don't get it in which case I'm truly so sorry for you. I hope your Lord, Jesus Christ, gives you the strength to see the truth and realize that Scientology is a cult.

P.S. Anonymous is a collective, so I understand why your simple mind has trouble grasping the inherent plurality in the concept of the simultaneous third/first person usage of a word which lacks a different pluralized form.
MikeMercer
MikeMercer
Glenn Dale, MD
38 months ago:
OSA= Office of Special Affairs. Scientology's secret police force. Does your church have a secret police force?
FaithMyStrength
FaithMyStrength
Cape Neddick, ME
38 months ago: Yes I am a Christian, please don't accuse me of being a liar.

MeowMacao, I already addressed this. Some other agitator under the name Marc Abfleet makes me suspect Marcab is some joke, Marcabfleet Marcabpr? What makes this truly suspect to me is that homosexual "activists" have flooded this article with hostility, condemnation, and wild accusations. To me, this looks like a harsh reaction to the family values I see being undermined everyday, therefore it wouldn't surprise me if such people thinly veil their own opinion and blasphemy of Jesus being a hateful homosexual. Do you all know each other as homosexuals? Pot calling the kettle black, if you have even that sliver of introspection.

ray3005, thank you for clarifying some of that. It sounds like their clergy have become corrupt, so perhaps you're saying a reformation is in order? That sounds like a very extreme and unwarranted kind of excommunication.

Anonymous Voice, thank you, although I'm utterly baffled as to why everyone thinks I'm Scientologist. I was raised LDS, but saw through some corruption in the Elders (I'm assuming if people here are not up in arms about homosexuality then it's about tainted church leaders). I'm a born again Christian and an Evangelical, thank you very much, and I'm somewhat sorry for you if you haven't let holy love into your heart. This "Anonymous collective" sounds far more cultish to me though. "We are Legion, we do not forgive or forget" what is that about?

And please, could someone explain what your alphabet soup means. I have no idea what you're talking about, and whatever your agenda I doubt anyone outside it knows either (maybe that's why you invented those codewords).
38 months ago: Faith, I'm probably wasting my time here since it's evident you're a Scientologist trying to pass off as a Christian, but please go to this TV NEWS website, KESQ based in Riverside California, and click on the 'Scientology VS Anonymous' banner.

Watch the videos of the news reports, and tell me what you think.

http://www.kesq.com
Greg73
Greg73
Canada
38 months ago: To: FaithMyStrength
I see that you are a Christian that must believe in freedom of religion. I am sure that you would find that religions share similar philosophy but may differ when it comes to practice and belief. Scientologists believe that all mankind are basically good, but have deviated from that path and committed harmful acts. A Scientologist confronts his own past and takes full responsibility for all that he has caused.
I have been a Scientologist for 12 years now, and I am still a proud Christian.
Mr. Hubbard said that man is free to believe what they want to believe.
Scientology has confirmed that past lives do exist, and I do understand that this is not compatable with Christian teachings. Knowing that, I had to research Christianity more deeply and see why something I know to be true was denied in Christianity.
Check out www.near-death.com/experiences/origen06.html if you are interested in what I believe as a Christian Scientologist.

Greg73
Greg73
Canada
38 months ago: To: FaithMyStrength
OSA stands for Office of Special Affairs, and it is a Department in the Organization of Scientology that deals with the legal elements of maintaining our faith, and helps in protecting our faith from the lies that some would say about our faith. All religious organizations have such a department.
Greg73
Greg73
Canada
38 months ago: Check out http://scientologytoday.org/Common/question/index.htm#misconception as well as www.scientologymyths.info to really understand the truth.
38 months ago: TheoTheLogin, I gotta say. I think you are trying to derail the discussion. First of all you say you are probably wasting your time here. And then you try to waste everyone else's time linking to a lowbandwidth news site. That features advertising videos that you MUST go through before you can watch your video of choice. Hahaha, you're way to serious, man.
bob dobbs
bob dobbs
Geneseo, NY
38 months ago: The first paragraph are Mr Remington's words, the second paragraph is me poking fun at L Ron being in lock-step with the evil psychs. A Scientologist would probably never
admit anything like that since psychiatrists are basically
demons in the Scientology worldview.

[quote] Terryeo, are you a Scientologist? I'm confused, the videos on the official website sound like they're talking about nothing sometimes, or it sounds like self help[/quote]

Scientologists are trained to lie, avoid questions, or obfuscate instead of giving a direct answer that might put
Scientology in a bad light, you've noticed a bit of it yourself I see . If you're new to things Scientology , just watch how shady Scientologist can be sometimes, it's part of the reason for their infamy.
xenubarb
xenubarb
San Diego, CA
38 months ago: "I'm not going to give up, but you're all clearly uninterested in intelligent debate"

This from the person who refuses to look at any evidence.
The elrony is palpable!
38 months ago: Go die in a fire, Faith. I have no time for bigots and hateful people who demonize others because of the way they were born! Same goes to Terryeo and all of the bigotted racist Scientologists around the world! I can't wait to see all of you dead or behind bars!!!!!!!!!

Filthy criminal scum, you should be ashamed of yourselfs! STOP THE HATRED!
38 months ago: Ignore these "Anonymous" cyber-terrorists, Fath. They are just bigots and haters, and we have very good evidence that they are being paid by certain speacial interest groups to protest and spam nonsense on message boards. People don't realize that Mr. Hubbard's discoveries make Scientology the final and most perfect religious technology ever devised. It makes all other religions obsolete, though people are still wellcome to say "I am a Scientologist and a Christian" or "I am a Scientologist and a Jew" ect. In fact, we recommend that people do this because it makes Scientology more attractive to new members, which of course is the goal. The main goal is to get rid of the mental health criminals and Psychiatrists who spend their days electroshocking innocent people into oblivion, performing lobotomies on people they have just raped in their offices, giving huge does of psych drugs to babies and infants, and so on. Once we have done that, the world will realize that Scientology is the ultimate and most workable way to clear this planet of all harmful influences and all criminally insane hoodlums with nothing better to do than to spam up message boards. Meanwhile, we Scientologists continue with our work, ignoring the terrorists the way the fireman ignores the dog nipping at the wheels of his fire truck. Our missionaries travel worldwide to bring L. Ron Hubbard technology to the citizens of poor countries, at affordable prices, so that almost everyone qualifies on one of the many family-friendly financing plans. Don't believe these bigots and liars. Just think about what you want to do for the next trillions of years.
38 months ago: Dear FaithMyStrength,

I am a very conservative Christian. I too supported prop. 8 in California, and believe in marriage being between a man and a woman. I have seen all kinds of attacks on religion and faith in my years.

I am also a Critic of Scientology and here is why.
1. Scientology and it's adherents enjoy a special tax exemption that no other non-profit, or religion does. (A jewish couple is petitioning the supreme court over this issue currently)

2.Scientology claims to be compatible with all religions. This is false. In the upper levels of Scientology they teach that Jesus, and all other religions are a result of "Alien Implants" and are a myth.

3. Jesus taught us to be wise, to use our knowledge for good. I include modern medicine as knowledge that should be used for our good. My brain is formed just a bit different from most peoples, which has caused me problems my whole life, and I take a psychiatric medicine, it acts in place of that missing part of my brain, like a artificial leg, or arm. It's not a perfect match (neither are the artificial limbs) but it allows me to function in society. Scientology says that the medication I use should be outlawed (along with all other psychiatric medications), and that I am a "degraded being" because I was born different. These ideas are clearly counter to the teachings of Christ.

38 months ago: 4. In all real religions full time employees are paid a "living wage" or at least minimum wage. They are given vacations, encouraged to see family if they like, and are free to leave whenever they choose. In Scientology none of these things are true. The Sea Organization (Sea Org) is Scientology's version of a priesthood. They are not paid minimum wage (as proven by w-2 forms of former members) They are worked 100 hrs a week, Monday-Sunday. All phone calls are monitored, and all mail opened and screened. When they try to leave, they have been chased down, tackled and forced back to the compound. All of these things can be proven with court documents, police reports,w-2 forms, and other proof.

5. I have other reasons, but really aren't the ones I have shown good enough?

The Bible warns us against false prophets, and those that would say one thing and do another. People who would use Christ's name to justify the devils work.

I don't care that Scientology believes in space aliens, and Xenu (their version of satan) I wish they would be honest about it, and not try to claim what they are not. And I would like them to follow the laws. Yes some of the critics of Scientology hate all religion.... but I don't. Please ignore that and look at the facts.

If you have any questions, or would like to see the documents I'm talking about feel free to e-mail me.
Robyn13
Robyn13
Beverly Hills, CA
38 months ago: "hey are just bigots and haters, and we have very good evidence that they are being paid by certain speacial interest groups to protest and spam nonsense on message boards"

LOL! No seriously, lol! You only wish we were being paid by "special interests". Unfortunately for you we are merely people who are sick of the human rights abuses, the crimes, the fair-gaming, the harassment, the bullying, etc etc. I would compare your cult to the Mafia-but that would be a gross insult to the Mafia.

Luckily your cult is now a tiger with no teeth, you have what-50,000 members left worldwide? Your front groups are being tossed out of cities everywhere, the media is finally beginning to do the investigations they should have done years ago, and your tiny leader is sqirrelling Hubbard's tech in order to raise much-needed cash.

You are FAIL. The world is onto you. You lose.
Robyn13
Robyn13
Beverly Hills, CA
38 months ago: "missionaries travel worldwide to bring L. Ron Hubbard technology to the citizens of poor countries, at affordable prices"

Just what those in poor countries need-Hubbard quackery.

Forget food, clothing, shelter and medicine-the $cilons are too cheap for that. Let's give em Hubbard tech.

Shameful.
FaithMyStrength
FaithMyStrength
Cape Neddick, ME
38 months ago: @Greg73
I'm not sure how reincarnation is "compatible" with Christianity. That's just not how it works. But thanks for clearing some of this up.

@Mr. Goulston
Well, I'm not sure what to think of that, but it sounds manipulative, even a bit creepy, and certainly hateful somehow. To your credit, if you're being real, then at least you're up front and truthful which is far more than I can see for most people here.

@Amanda
Thank you so much, I think I get the picture now. I looked into this more, and if these allegations are all true, it's...disturbing, to say the least. False prophets indeed!

@louannelee
But then I see things like this, and while I was looking at this Scientology stuff found the group fighting them. I looked into that, and you ma'am seem to get the point clear across to me. I read this "Anonymous" filth. I'm deeply offended, appaled, and disturbed by this rabid anti-Christian, Godless, hateful filth I've just seen associated with this terrorist organization opposed to the Scientology Church, however frightening it may be if those allegations are all true. I pray some of you do repent and let Jesus into your heats, but fear many here may be almost a lost cause. Please, at least know what you rant against, pick up a Bible. You people sound like some electrocult of hate and filth I didn't know existed.

But the other thing is that whole anti-Scientology movement just sounds insane to me, far far more so than the usual tinfoil conspiracy theorists. I would hope that someone could prove this wrong, but fear...maybe not. They sound like David Icke with a hategroup bent, but even without the hate it sounds like bizarre conspiracy theorists and tinfoil hat paranoia. Do you "Anonymous" people follow David?
Scamentology
Scamentology
Pope Valley, CA
38 months ago: Five minutes on google regarding scientology will enlighten all scientologists, but they wont do it - WHY!!
Because they were told not to look.

Its a cult!!! wake up - join the freezone if you want to be a scientologist. the church itself is really messed up.

(freezone is just as bad but at least it wont cost you everything you have)
38 months ago: @Faith

Just because Anonymous has "rabid anti-Christian, Godless, hateful filth" as part of the collective doesn't mean we aren't telling the truth. Thank you for listening to Amanda, and thank YOU Amanda for putting into words what some Anonymous were having difficulty getting across.

As to this David Icke. Anonymous has no leader. We are a collective. Think a hive of insects, but with no queen at the top. All are equal, and all have a say in the course of action that Anonymous will take. Anonymous has no connection to this David Icke.

We have amongst our number devout Catholics, Jews, Muslims, Protestants, Baptists, Atheists, Agnostics, Buddhists, people of all faiths and devotions. Anonymous does not discuss amongst itself religion. We have people who are black, white, asian, middle eastern, hispanic, south american, european, all racial and ethnic backgrounds. On the internet, you have no skin color or ethnicity. Anonymous is varied and diverse, and therein lies our strength.
38 months ago: Faith, I am not a member of Anonymous and I do not agree with some of the things that I have heard about them, but I understand what they are doing as far as Scientology is concerned. Please read for yourself and google to read more

http://www.whyweprotest.net

I'm glad you've finally opened your mind to learning more about Scientology. I'm know you will realize what we've been telling you is nothing but the truth. Be careful what you say if you don't know the facts. Church of Scientology is a huge sore spot for many many people.
38 months ago: Faith,

I remember thinking EXACTLY what you are. "How could this be true? This sounds crazy! Where can I find Documentation, proof? Some of these "anonymous" people sound horrible!"

Truth is Truth, no matter where you find it, or how ugly the person who gives it to you is.
http://www.kesq.com/Global/category.asp?C=162474
That is a link to a news station in California, that is currently investigating Scientology.
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,972865,00.html
That is a link to TIME magazine that did a in depth investigation of Scientology. (Scientology sued them for slander, laible..ect and LOST when TIME proved that everything was factual)

I literally could go on all day about the policies of this "church" and how they violate laws across the globe. Currently France, and Belgium are holding trials for fraud, money laundering, practicing medicine without a license, and other criminal activities. I hope soon the USA will join them and end the pain of those being hurt by this organization.
FaithMyStrength
FaithMyStrength
Cape Neddick, ME
38 months ago: @ray3005 I implore you people, if you know each other as homosexuals your soul depends on accepting Jesus, the fisher king. These fish are your immortal souls. I suspect you're young and identify with it, so think of Jesus as the Rye Catcher stopping you from falling into the abyss, saving you from the abyss you're all clearly in by casting pearls of wisdom and reeling into the light and mercy of God those who have eyes to see and ears to hear The Word.

If you're lazy I'll summarize The Word, so I'd like to tell you the story right now, and not righteously one sided to put you down. Please, at least take a minute to sit quietely here to learn the Gospel all about how Jesus saves. Our Lord's only begotten son, Prince by birth, and king of kings on Earth, gave his life for our sins without fanfare or bells, but rose into air. It was Bethlehem where we know Jesus was born and raised.

The Caesar would've been relaxing, taxing, keeping his cool, but Jesus was flippin tables for them mocking God's rule, so some Jews thought he was up to no good, and Rome saw him making trouble in the Jewish neighborhood. He got in one little fight and Mother Mary got scared and sayeth "thou shalt dwell with Salome and Joseph, thine auntie and uncle, to a place walled off of Ba'al ware". He whistled for a calf and rode it with care, less since Pontius, see Herod demand John's head--fresh--'cause they had much vice in that era. Of anything pure, Jesus thought "'tis a calf that is quite rare, I son of man won't forget thee when I vanish into air". He pulled up with some cows, about seven or eight, yelling to the Calf "ye, comes well ye later" Cow and he looked on thine kingdom, soon to be there, to sit on his throne, from whence the cow Gospel appeared. A religion recognizes eternal life, and only cults worship dead cows.

Hello, David.
AnonymousLausanne
AnonymousLausanne
Switzerland
38 months ago: http://www.rantrave.com/Rave/Scientology-A-sex-boost-you-can-use.aspx
38 months ago: Faith, you need not preach to me. If you would pay attention, I told you earlier that I am a Christian, married with children and strongly believe in God and traditional family values. If you feel the need to preach to homosexuals, please do not direct it at me.

My posts in this thread have nothing to do with homosexuality and has everything to do with the dark side of Scientology. Please do not turn this around.
38 months ago: To the Scientologists who are Christian:

So, how far along are you on the bridge? Up to OTIII yet, where you learn that all religions are false memories implanted into the dead alien souls that inhabit your body by Lord Xenu?

Or if you just skimmed OTIII, how about OT8, where Hubbard says he's the anti-Christ and Jesus was a pedophile?

I'm betting you're OTII or below and you've been told you will get sick if you read the sacred texts you are not ready to understand. And you will keep paying for courses. Some people worked for the Cult for 20 years before getting to read OTIII, at which point they walked out (or in some cases, snuck over the barbed wire fence at Gold Base). That's what the Cult wants you to do: pay for courses. Money, money, money.

I've read OT1-8 and I have not gotten sick or gone insane. Feel free to do the same and read your "Church"'s own sacred texts at wikileaks! Or heck, just ask your auditor about "incident 2" and watch them freak out.

xenu.net
whyweprotest.net
wikileaks.org
secure.wikileaks.org/wiki/Scientology
38 months ago: Anonymous Voice, the facts are provable electronic facts because they pertain to the pain and sex wavelengths, which are synthesized waves.
38 months ago: Robyn13, you can find the facts at www.scientology.org.
FaithMyStrength
FaithMyStrength
Cape Neddick, ME
38 months ago: This is AWFUL and my heart breaks for these poor children
http://exscientologykids.org/m.html
I was in tears by the end of this. What kind of sick disgusting organization allows this? Absolutely repulsive and disturbing. I'm crying right now after reading those stories because I know there most be so many others like them.

To everyone in this thread, I hope you'll accept my sincere apologies for being so aggressive and uninformed. I started reading through those links...I'm just floored. It is absolutely REVOLTING to me that they have the GALL to spit upon spiritual truth by calling something so vile a "church". The whyaretheydead website, I thought it was spurious and said no religion would do that. Certainly not! I'm completely outraged! They sound like a perverted occult mafia and I am a stunned and appalled that not only does the organization still operate, but it's endorsed by celebrities?! And they were raided by the FBI for trying to take over the government?!

This is very, very disturbing and I'm spending the rest of tonight learning more about this. No wonder scientology videos seem vague empty or meaningless, it's a horrible marketing scheme worse than an imposter or false prophet. This is exactly the viciousness Christ told us to be wary of, for they do lie. Those in this thread, I'm sorry for misunderstanding and thank you for informing me. Never stop fighting for truth and doing what's right.
38 months ago: FaithMyStrength, you have simply been reading made-up slander written by criminals. The internet is full of nonsense like that written by suppressive persons.

So, while your anger is righteous, it has a false basis.

Try www.scientologymyths.info to get the provable facts.
xenubarb
xenubarb
San Diego, CA
38 months ago: Thank you for looking, Faith. Jack Remington, Scientologist, spews phrases like "provable facts," while offering nothing of the kind, simply more links to Scientology promotional sites.

And yet, these stories are true, many well-documented, some on their way to the court system. There, we'll see if they are judged to have merit.

When I first looked behind the religious facade of Scientology, I also found it hard to believe. Yet the documents don't lie.

In 1991, Time Magazine published a cover story called, 'Scientology; Thriving Cult of Greed and Power.'

They were sued by the Scientology organization, and the court found in Time's favor. You can still read it here:
http://www.xenu.net/archive/media/time910605.html

Keep in mind, the court looked at hundreds of documents and determined that the allegation in the article were true. That is "provable fact."

I'm glad you decided to look. I'm sorry that it upset you, but the fact is, this stuff is still going on; in Clearwater, Los Angeles, Riverside County, and St. Hill, UK, Scientology's main bases in the world.

Scientologists, the poor, mentally conditioned victims like Jack here, refuse to look and refuse to believe.
To believe is to admit they were the victim of a scam, and Scientologists like to think they're smarter than that.

Scientologymyths.info is just another fake Scientology "informational" site, full of lies and inaccuracies.

You probably wouldn't care for the rough and tumble websites of Anonymous' operations, but despite the profanity and crude jokes, we truly believe that Scientology is a destructive organization that harms families and individuals in too many ways. Basically, we're on the same side. We want the horror stories to stop.

Again, thank you for doing some research. Please spread the word; Scientology often tries to insinuate itself into interfaith activities, and churches need to be made aware of this insidious sham parading around in religious costume.
38 months ago: Faith, Jack H Remington is a proven Scientologist hell-bent on spreading as much, excuse the term, bull**** about how Scientology helps people as possible.

I am a Catholic, before you read on, will provide an email address if you ask for it.

CoS (Church of Scientology) advocates and practices forced abortions to those in the SO (Sea Organization, read, internal paramilitary). In addition to the previously covered points regarding Hubbard denying Christ, they claim that Christianity can be practiced while becoming a Scientologist, and go so far as claiming that these are compatible throughout the "bridge", see a current debate
- http://www.rantrave.com/Rant/Scientology-and-the-Abrahamic-Religions.aspx

I asked my Priest, and he launched into a tirade, which is unusual for a man of the cloth, unless the subject deals with something of immediate threat and/or grievous sins. I also asked the Imam of the main Mosque in Glasgow, the Rabbi, and a Protestant minister, and all of them directly stated that A: Scientology was a cult, and B: That the claim by Scientology to be compatible was an outright lie, and those who fall into the trap deserve our help as brothers and sisters of Christ and children of God. (I am known to the Imam and Rabbi, due to regular contact for community fundraisers and events.) I am also a member of the group known as Anonymous, and can assure you that nothing within the group's goals advocates attacking religion. Our target is to destroy the "church" of Scientology *In its present form*. In other words, we are not attacking the religion, we attack the organization in order to cease it's abuses of both those who place their trust in it, and the children vulnerable to its mind control.
xenubarb
xenubarb
San Diego, CA
38 months ago: Hey Jack, you just lost the game.

Having spent your day here defending the indefensible, the inevitable happened. The person you were trying to convince did some research instead of relying on Scientology sites for information. You lose.

Go put your feet up and enjoy the evening, Jack. And think about what happened when your argument blew up all around you.
You can leave too, you know. You don't have to be a tool for a destructive cult.
38 months ago: Anonymous7777, you say that your target is to destroy the Church of Scientology.

There, you have discredited yourself.

It wasn't Scientology who invented the pain and sex wavelengths. It is not Scientology that is the sole cause of decline in this universe.

You are looking at the wrong target.
38 months ago: "Our target is to destroy the "church" of Scientology *In its present form*. In other words, we are not attacking the religion, we attack the organization in order to cease it's abuses of both those who place their trust in it, and the children vulnerable to its mind control."

There, just quoted myself. My target is to stop the abuses. Any questions?
38 months ago: Oh, and for the record. I know Psychiatrists. My parish priest was studying Psychiatry before he was called and chosen by God. Many are called, few are chosen.
38 months ago: Anonymous7777, if you are dedicated to stopping abuses, you will find that the greatest, historical perpetrators of abuses are the psychs.

In attacking the Church, you are really just adding to the problems.

If your target is to stop the abuses you should work with human rights organizations, such as the Citizens Commission on Human Rights and help to wipe out psychiatry, electro-convulsize therapy, pain and sex wavelengths and deep sleep therapy for good.

see www.cchr.org
38 months ago: @ Faith

Just as an aside, check out Jack's history.

http://www.rantrave.com/Rant/Criticisim-of-Scientology-by-Criminals.aspx
http://www.rantrave.com/Rave/It-is-hopeless-to-not-be-a-Scientologist.aspx

Note that he says "It is hopeless to not be a scientologist".

I call that a direct attack on other faiths, to be perfectly frank.
38 months ago: "If your target is to stop the abuses you should work with human rights organizations, such as the Citizens Commission on Human Rights and help to wipe out psychiatry, electro-convulsize therapy, pain and sex wavelengths and deep sleep therapy for good."

What, you mean the Scientology FRONT GROUP? Yeah, that is sure to be a fair and neutral opinion...



Cardinal speaks out - http://anonforgreatjustice.blogspot.com/2009/02/cardinal-speaks-on-scientology-second.html

38 months ago: Anonymous7777, you talk of a "direct attack on other faiths".

Yet, you are the one alleging that a Priest, an Imam, a Rabbi, and a Protestant minister, are attacking the Church of Scientology as a cult.
38 months ago: Not alleging, stating, and I can provide written testimony if needed.

Oh, and that is the basis of their opinion, it may not be the official church position. But given that men of the cloth, from four seperate branches of the abrahamic religions are denouncing Scientology as a cult, those of us who have studied such matters must see that as a pretty clear sign that there is at least something wrong with the Church of Scientology to draw flak from men of god.
38 months ago: CCHR members come from all faiths and are dedicated to exposing the menace of psychiatry. You should check it out before you criticize it.
38 months ago: CCHR was founded in 1969 by the Church of Scientology.

And heres a little link to a CCHR document, cracked open by yours truly, that was originally uncopyable, unprintable, and un-linkable, had to be reached via a scientology website java link.

http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?ouodttjmfdi

Have a nice day Jack. Called your mother lately?
xenubarb
xenubarb
San Diego, CA
38 months ago: Who is discredited, Jack?
You wrote, "
It wasn't Scientology who invented the pain and sex wavelengths. It is not Scientology that is the sole cause of decline in this universe."

So you admit that, in part, Scientology is one of the causes of decline "in this universe."

Thank you.
38 months ago: Anonymous7777, if, as you say, your parish priest was studying Psychiatry you should be wary of his links to the psychs and their wavelengths.

So, someone pasted together a document that you allege was "uncopyable" and put the names of Tim Bowles, Jason Beghe, Kendrick Moxon, Jonathan Lubell, Bruce Wiseman and Isaac Hayes all together on it. Clearly bogus and a waste of time.

xenubarb
xenubarb
San Diego, CA
38 months ago: Oooh, "the menace of psychiatry."

How about the menace of a pack of indoctrinated idiots who think they can play doctor better than professionals who have studied for eight years to earn a degree? How about that body trail, Jack?

Like, Lisa McPherson, who died in the "care" of Scientologists after suffering a psychotic break?

How about Jeremy Perkins, the second generation Scientologist who was denied the treatment he needed for the onset of schizophrenia? He stabbed his auditor mother Elli 77 times on L. Ron Hubbard's birthday.

Or Linda Waliki, same situation in Australia, who stabbed her father and sister to death, and wounded her mother?

Or Martine Boubil, who was rescued from the same situation that killed Lisa?

None of these deaths would have happened, except for the boneheaded Scientology hatred of the mental health system coupled with the dogged belief that mental illness doesn't exist, and that vitamins and exercise are all you need to restore sanity.

Let's hope nobody close to you starts experiencing delusions and voices, Jack. I have a feeling they would not get the care they needed under your watch.
38 months ago: Barb, you say "So you admit that, in part, Scientology is one of the causes of decline "in this universe."

I said no such thing. The psychs are the sole cause of decline in this universe. Scientology is not.

Scientology is holding back the decline.
FaithMyStrength
FaithMyStrength
Cape Neddick, ME
38 months ago: @xenubarb
I'm still trying to digest what I've been reading.

Is what you're talking about the reason why John Travolta's son is dead?
38 months ago: Barb, you have failed to account for all the deaths, madness and crime that has been prevented by Scientology, and all the lives that have been improved by Scientology. You have picked a few, probably psychiatrist caused, deaths out of millions of Scientology success stories.
38 months ago: FaithMyStrength, Jett Travolta's death was a tragic accident that has been used by extortionist criminals who have tried to benefit from it. He had always received the best care available.
FaithMyStrength
FaithMyStrength
Cape Neddick, ME
38 months ago: Mr. Remington I'd be interested to know how scientology has prevented "deaths, madness and crime" or what this is about extortion. I've found some very serious accusations leveled against your group.

Well Mr. Remington I'm interested to know your explanation for the heart wrenching stories I just read here http://exscientologykids.com/
38 months ago: FaithMyStrength, the explanation is that accusations are free. The Romans made up stories to justify their persecution of the Christians, too.
xenubarb
xenubarb
San Diego, CA
38 months ago: You'll have to draw your own conclusion, but here are some facts about Jett Travolta.
His mommy is Kelly Preston, a CCHR spokesperson/actress. She and John Travolta assert that Jett suffered from Kawasaki Syndrome, a condition that arises from exposure to chemicals such as carpet cleaners.

Doctors who specialize in Kawasaki Syndrome were interviewed after Jett's untimely death. According to medical experts, Kawasaki Syndrome does not result in seizures, and only affects young children. They grow out of it in time.

Jett had seizures. Jett was sixteen, outside of the envelope for Kawasaki Syndrome.

Several people; medical professionals and parents with autistic children recognized autism in Jett's movements and behavior. A large percentage of autistic children often suffer from seizures.
xenubarb
xenubarb
San Diego, CA
38 months ago:
Why do the Travoltas insist, despite evidence to the contrary, that Jett had Kawasaki Syndrome? One of Scientology's (and CCHR's) fear mongering topics is "exposure to a toxic environment," supposedly treatable by the useless and dangerous Purification Rundown. Scientologists don't believe in mental disorders such as autism and schizophrenia.

That boy was subjected to the Purification Rundown when he first started having seizures. He was subsequently placed on anti-seizure medication, which was discontinued when the Travoltas claimed it was causing liver damage. Curiously, the toxic quantities of niacin administered during the Purification Rundown can also cause permanent liver damage. The Travoltas never tried any other anti-seizure medications. Apparently, several severe seizures a week was acceptable to these two OTs for their damaged son. As OTs, it is simply impossible that these two uber-beings could possibly give birth to a flawed individual. So, obviously, the cause had to be environmental toxins.

Never mind the fact that Jett's nanny was a wedding photographer with no experience with special needs kids.

Never mind that initial reports suggest that Jett laid on the bathroom floor all night after suffering a major seizure.

Never mind that the story went through several iterations before Scientology settled upon the version they liked.

The entire saga can be researched here:
http://forums.whyweprotest.net/298-jett-travolta/

We have a fairly complete collection of all the media reports from the beginning of this tragedy to recent stories.
FaithMyStrength
FaithMyStrength
Cape Neddick, ME
38 months ago: Mr. Remington sir you did not answer my other questions and barely answered the third. Do you mean all of these stories and court documents I've been reading are complete lies? What I am most interested in is your explanation for the children's stories on that website.

You did not answer my other questions either, such as your claim that Scientology has prevented death and madness. How so? What has been accomplished? You also say the child of Mr. John Travolta suffered a tragic accident and was exploited by extortionists. What do you mean by that? You claim to be a victim of vicious criminals and tyrannical governmets, but Christians were murdered. Are Scientologists being murdered for being Scientologists?

Another interesting thing is this "Sea Org" contract for 1 billion years. There were stories about children being forced into that organization. Is this true? Were children signing 1 billion year contracts and what did they commit in those contracts?

I want answers.
xenubarb
xenubarb
San Diego, CA
38 months ago: Tch, Jack.
"Barb, you have failed to account for all the deaths, madness and crime that has been prevented by Scientology, and all the lives that have been improved by Scientology."

See, I can name names. You can't. That is what is called 'unsubstantiated.' Please spare me the "Scientology gives me tools that help in day to day life." That is called anecdotal testimonials.

About as useless as me telling you tiny creatures live on the moon because I have seen them with my magic telescope, and you should just take my word for it because you can trust me.

Heh. You really should give it up. You are trying desperately to defend the indefensible, and it's not looking real good for you.
38 months ago: FaithMyStrength

Yes, the negative things you have been reading, whatever they are, are most likely lies.

I can find anti-Christian postings on the internet, too.

If you want to know about how Scientology is working towards a world without crime and madness, check out, www.scientology.org.

Your local Church of Scientology is best placed to give you the answers you seek.

Scientology kids are kids like Beck Hansen and Neil Gaiman.
MeowMacao
MeowMacao
Andorra
38 months ago: Scientology kids are young ladies like Jenna Miscavige, niece of Scientology tyrant David Miscavige. After a horrible, insane childhood in the cult, she managed to break free, and is one of the young women who founded exscientologykids.com.

Faith, I apologize for my earlier tone towards you.

One thing you'll notice is that when challenged on any point, Jack never defends it. Instead, he attacks the challenger. L. Ron Hubbard wrote that one should "Never defend, always attack." Scientologists follow Hubbard's decrees to the letter. Watch, Jack will say I'm lying, or that I'm a criminal, or something of that nature.

Also, please notice that it was Jack who posted (at the top of the article) what is apparently an Asian painting of naked people having an orgy.
FaithMyStrength
FaithMyStrength
Cape Neddick, ME
38 months ago: I already went to your website. It was vague and didn't really explain anything, and especially not the sorts of questions I have. You also made a claim here and I expect you to back it up. I'm not wading through links and videos for hours when you're here making those statements. You posted that late at night, you're here, they're closed. Surely you can tell me at least a few great examples off the top of your head.

I find it highly suspicious that your sweeping generalization is the truth of the matter. With the amount of material it seems unlikely that ALL of it is untrue. They don't sound nutty either, many are well spoken and clearly from different writers.

You're trying to paint yourself as a victim comparable to Christian persecution in Rome. To what degree have Scientologists been discriminated against or had violence and murders perpetrated on them? There's something about your story that strikes me as highly suspect. WHY then are there all these angry people? If everything online is a lie about scientology then what could possibly be their motivation for attacking something so fringe? Your vague assertions and generalities smell funny to me sir, especially when I ask for evidence and you seem to have none to offer. I visited that site, your only reference, and it was just as ambiguous in giving concrete facts as you've been.
38 months ago: If you don't see the discrimination against Scientologists, then you might consider that none are so blind as those who will not see. You only have to look at this web page.

If wading for some hours into a topic that has you so het up is too much for you, you should pause and reflect.

FaithMyStrength, you could get a lot of help from your local Church of Scientology, if you could muster up the patience to wait until the morning.
xenubarb
xenubarb
San Diego, CA
38 months ago: "Scientology kids are kids like Beck Hansen and Neil Gaiman. "

Scientology celeb spawn? Hardly what I'd call typical.
Did they join the SO at a young age?
Were they subjected to the abuses, neglect and deprivation of plain old vanilla Scientology kids?

Yeah, you are so slithery. Next you'll be telling us Kirstie Alley, John Travolta and Tom Cruise's brand of Scientology experience is shared by everyone in the cult.

It just isn't true.
xenubarb
xenubarb
San Diego, CA
38 months ago: "If you don't see the discrimination against Scientologists, then you might consider that none are so blind as those who will not see. You only have to look at this web page. "

Jack, Jack, Jack! Wordclear 'discrimination.' It isn't the same word as 'criticism,' which is what is happening here.

Nobody is denying you a voice, or a job here. I don't think you know the meaning of discrimination.

I will say I am more discriminating than you when it comes to picking a religion, however. (that's a pun. did you get it?)
FaithMyStrength
FaithMyStrength
Cape Neddick, ME
38 months ago: Mr. Remington, I am equally appalled by the behavior and disgusted by the character exhibited by those who've posted before, but I'm less inclined to believe one who gives no answers. I would expect to see and study your scriptures or at least for you to give me SOME solid information.

And that does sound a little cultish for you to say over and over just show up when you're clearly paying enough attention here to explain things better. Why are you even on here then? I've reflected upon this all night.

What are your beliefs? What makes you different from other religions? None of that mumbo jumbo either, I feel like I'm watching infomercials after awhile. Is there any place I can find your scriptures and read them online tonight and tomorrow morning?

Because vile though these other people may be, at least they gave me many sources of information and answered my concerns (after a long enough wait anyway). Sorry, I've become very confused and riled up about all this.

Amanda is clearly one who has the love of Christ and light of God in her heart, for we are deceived by surface appearances but the whole world shalt pass away. "Truth is Truth, no matter where you find it, or how ugly the person who gives it to you is." Well, it certainly matters for some truths, but I whole heartedly agree. Would we deny the wisdom of a leper because he is sick, or a man because he is old or ugly? Would we be so arrogant to condemn a sinner yet not heed the warnings? I feel bad about that, for I did not listen. At times it's difficult to remember that uglier truths are no less true for their ugliness.
FaithMyStrength
FaithMyStrength
Cape Neddick, ME
38 months ago: My sincerest apologies to those here, especially if you were helpful and not rude. :)
I was under the impression that the "church" of Scientology was a Christian denomination like Christian Science or maybe offbeat like Episcopelians. Having been in LDS I'm not unfamiliar with "odd" denominations, especially ones with corrupt leadership. But this, this is something else.

Mr. Remington I hope you learn some shame and repentance for trying to deceive me. Why keep your doctrines in secrecy if they could help humanity? If it brings you closer to God, why hide it? You people are trying to recruit through deception. A previous poster said one be remain Christian and a Scientologist, and proposed reincarnation as compatible. Ludicrous! I bought my now useless Ford from a salesman less slippery than what I've seen, and it now makes sense why I feel like I just keep going back to infomercials and am talking to salesman. And you're selling dangerous lies. All religions, however flawed, admit to mistakes and transgressions in their past and they repent. I had no idea your organization had such a long rap sheet! Why would you deny and lie about past abuses? No religious person lies to get away with crimes and immorality, and an organization that does this is no religion. So I looked further.
FaithMyStrength
FaithMyStrength
Cape Neddick, ME
38 months ago: I went to the youtube again and watched your founder and listened to him talk. Scientology has nothing to do with Christianity, yet you use a cross to make it appear so. The founder of your organization was a science fiction writer who was in to the occult! I asked my friends about this and they pointed the way. Everything about "thetans" is exorcisms and demonic possession! a billion year contract, this isn't just an insidious agenda against family values YOU'RE DIRECTLY HAVING PEOPLE SELL THEIR SOULS!!! YOU ARE BREAKING APART FAMILIES AND FORCING CHILDREN TO SELL THEIR SOULS IN A VEILED PARAMILITARY GROUP AND FORCING THEM TO HAVE ABORTIONS WHEN THEY GET THERE!!!

"Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee." Rev 3:9

Much of what I said before applies to this organization, this church of Satan. You anonymous people, I was mistaken and should have listened. You spoke the ugly truth and I wasn't listening. I do not believe so much evidence could be fabricated, and as hostile or foul mouthed as some were I now see a sharp difference between who would speak truths and who says nothing. Whichever hideous places you must have wondered through to know so much, thank you for sharing the pearls from that muck.

"But what I am doing, I will continue to do, that I may cut off opportunity from those who desire an opportunity to be regarded just as we are in the matter about which they are boasting. For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their deeds." 2 Cor 11:12-15
Scientia
Scientia
England
38 months ago: RE: "Scientology says that the medication I use should be outlawed (along with all other psychiatric medications), and that I am a "degraded being" because I was born different."

Psychiatric diagnoses are not based in medical science. If you have a valid brain dysfunction then this would be a medical/neurological condition, not psychiatric. Such conditions can be tested for, and validated scientifically. Psychiatric "disorders" are not. (That's not to say that such problems do not exist - of course they do - but the psychiatric label, the psychopharmaceutical marketing behind it as a specific "disease" that must be "treated" with "medication", is simple fraud.
xenubarb
xenubarb
San Diego, CA
38 months ago: And what possible proof do you have for this absurd view on psychiatry? Gonna direct us to a CCHR website for more Hubbardian nonsense?

The man was a college dropout and pulp fiction hack, for pete's sake! Not to mention a pathological liar who was unqualified to make the determinations his followers blindly parrot.

Oh, and, most despicably, he is one of many people who lied about their military service and pretended to be a war hero. Too bad he never saw the Freedom of Information Act coming!
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Cowen/warhero/contents.htm
38 months ago: Faith, I am very happy that you did the research and now see Scientology for what it really is. I apologize if I was rude in prior posts. Please understand it was a little frustrating in the beginning when you were so closed minded. Scientology paints a glorious picture but is really the devil in disguise. Please continue to read more. You have only just begun the break the surface.
38 months ago: John 9:39

I feel that is appropriate. Faith, I am glad you now see the deceit sown by these cultists.

Regardless, Jack, since you seem to have technical knowledge equating to roughly that of a clam (how ironic). I should probably point out that, surprisingly, a password on a non-copy document can be cracked relatively fast by a semi-skilled programmer... and when it comes to the greater good, I would happily take the hit.
38 months ago: While it is true that the Church of Scientology keeps a handful of documents confidential, the published works are more than 35,000,000 words. While the unpublished works of L. Ron Hubbard are much less. Certain critics say they have stolen unpublished works, have not modified what they say they stole, and present them as if they are stolen property.

The Church's position is; Mr. Hubbard's works are somewhat sequential. Certainly he presents new ideas. And uses words for new ideas. Thus, unless you have studied the earlier ideas, it would be beyond understanding to study the later ones. And understanding, personal understanding, is the Church's product. Problems of Work (a published book), How to Live though an Executive, (a published book), Scientology; a New Slant on Life (a published book), and many others - are written toward personal understanding. The Church's task is to disseminate these into society. And to do so, a large project is putting these books (and others) into public libraries. Whereas your "research" on the internet at critical sites tells quite another story.

So why, exactly, do critics rave against Scientology? After all, you have to put forth some personal effort to understand it. You would have to check out a book at a library, or walk into a Church, or donate and take a course, or donate to receive auditing. Why do critics rave? Hubbard mentions that critics rail against Scientology because it works. I agree with that.
38 months ago: Faith, have you read about Paulette Cooper or Operation Freakout? Please read her book The Scandal of Scientology and then read her story of what happened after the book was published. You may contact her if you wish.

http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Library/Shelf/cooper/scandal_behind_scandal.html
MikeMercer
MikeMercer
Glenn Dale, MD
38 months ago: Let's not talk about scientology beliefs. I think they have a right to believe whatever they want. Hindus, Christians and Athiests all find each others beliefs absurd. None of them deserves to be attacked for it.


Let's talk about child labor. The website exscientologykids is chock full of testamonials from people born into scientology. The all tell similar stories of doing hard manual labor at a very young age, being packed into filthy cots and fed substandard food. They also do not recieve medical attention or much education.
These are the children of scientology staff members. they had the benefit of scientology from barley formula on. They run for the hills as soon as they can.

I have always been suprized that there is very little sexual abuse in a group that has so little respect for human life in general. I think that is because only submissives and masochists are drawn to cults.
Oh look, We're back on topic.
38 months ago: Actually Mike you should read about Tommy Gorman and his wife. She was raped and scientology fought hard to cover that up. When the scientologist guilty went to prison, they started and continue to this day a massive harassment campaign against him and his wife in retaliation for making them look bad. Go to the ex scientology kids site and you will read about abuse of children in the cult as well. The sexual abuse is there, but shame helps silence people and the cult's retaliation tactics give them even more reason not to want to talk about it. Once the cult goes down, you are going to see hundreds of cases come forward about rape, incest and child abuse from inside.
38 months ago: Content Removed by RantRave Admin
38 months ago: Content Removed by RantRave Admin
38 months ago: Scientology helped me out so much! Sex was boring, but with Scientology I learned to rape women and my fellow culties worked hard to cover it up! The Rape Tech invented by L. Ron Hubbard just works! His lecture where he demonstrates it on little boys aboard the Apollo is easy to understand and fun to watch! Don't forget to order the e-meter nipple clamps, it makes raping out thetans easier than ever! Thank you Scientology for improving my conditions and giving me more rape!
38 months ago: Let the critics rail and they soon discredit themselves. Don't let me stop you.
38 months ago: "Let the critics rail and they soon discredit themselves. Don't let me stop you."

Lol ok. Keep telling yourself that. BTW nice to see that the org gave you back to rights to freedom of speech.
38 months ago: How did humans ever have sex till 50 years ago when some drugee brought us his knock-off star wars?

BTW Jack, your picture is pretty pornographic. Keep it PG. Children visit this site, be respectful. You should be ashamed for filling your internet browser with smut like that.
Scientia
Scientia
England
37 months ago: RE: "And what possible proof do you have for this absurd view on psychiatry? Gonna direct us to a CCHR website for more Hubbardian nonsense?"

Do your own research. It is well-documented. There are no tests to prove the existence of any mental disorder as defined by psychiatry. Talk of "chemical imbalances" and the like are nothing more than psychopharmaceutical propaganda.

"Chemical imbalance...it's a shorthand term really, it's probably drug industry derived. We don’t have tests because to do it, you’d probably have to take a chunk of brain out of someone – not a good idea." -- Dr. Mark Graff, Chair of the Committee of Public Affairs, American Psychiatric Association.

"The precise causes (etiology) of mental disorders are not known. ..There is no definitive lesion, laboratory test, or abnormality in brain tissue that can identify the illness." -- U.S. Surgeon General’s Report on Mental Health
xenubarb
xenubarb
San Diego, CA
37 months ago: Yeah well, you tell that to schizophrenics who hear voices.
Tell it to the seriously depressed people who are helped by medication.
How old is this Surgeon General's report?

Thanks to the MODERN tools, we can actually see the brain function light up as different parts of it are stimulated by input. Of course, you probably still buy into Hubbard's assertion that we only use 10% of our brains, something that has been disproven long ago.

Post links to your quotes. You could have just pulled these, Hubbardlike, out of thin air. Here's how it works; you quote, you link to the quote so others can confirm that you're not just blowing smoke. Tch. It's kind of sad that I have to even instruct you, but then again, your lot are used to swallowing any old gobbledegook the old fraud spewed out.

Learn to footnote. It's how real science is done.
37 months ago: Scientia you are so uneducated about this subject it's kinda sad!

My particular issue is a chemical imbalance, that is cause by a underdeveloped part of my brain. This was Diagnosed using a SPINAL TAP, to analyze the chemical content (A laboratory test) and a MRI to look at the brain structures. It was found that one of my brain chemicals was too low, which was causing my symptoms.

All I have to do is take an SSRI (psychiatric medication) which compensates for my bodies inability to produce normal amounts of a important chemical.

So yeah! There ARE tests that prove chemical imbalances. They are fairly risky, and invasive, and are less used because the same diagnosis can me obtained without them.

It is because of uneducated people like you stigmatizing mental illness, that I had to undergo those scary, and horrific tests, just to prove what was already known. What a waste of money and time!!

Oh also there wasn't a laboratory test for Diabetes 30yrs ago... is it not real too? YOU ARE A FOOL who knows nothing of modern diagnostic tools for psychiatric illness. Go be uneducated somewhere else.
37 months ago: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I like this ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Scamentology
Scamentology
Pope Valley, CA
37 months ago: I wonder if all the scilons that smoke realize that nicotine affects the brain by the same mechanism that
Serotonin
Dopamine
and other naturally occuring chemicals do in the brain. by locking onto receptors throughout the body. Whats the difference? (smoking doesnt cure cancer scientology - I know what hubbard said but, come on)
37 months ago: Hubbard realized that smoking helped them deal with all the sleep deprivation and hunger from not having enough money to buy food or enough time to eat a decent meal.

That and he was a fully addicted chain smoker of menthols and he had to have an excuse to keep smoking them, so he claimed that cigs help flush out radiation, which is actually quite the opposite. Instead you are depositing tars and other organics that contain naturally occuring carbon isotopes, but hey, Hubbard never let actual science get in the way of his scam.
37 months ago: This is intense and I loved how it developed.
37 months ago: Interesting how Scientologists tell us that "nothing on the internet can be believed" - yet happily post links to their own sites to support their own arguments, which can be debunked by a cursory Google search to find hundreds of separate sources saying things against Scientology.

Despite Hubbard's supposed brilliance - most of which can also be debunked, like his "amazing military record and collection of medals", medals recieved by everyone who basically survived the battle, considered unfit for command not once, not twice but indeed three times - he didn't forsee the invention of the internet, where information can be catalogued and found easily, and viewed almost live as it happens half way round the world.

Scientology has only survived this long because they were so secretive, and once you found out the truth you were too far involved to escape, those that have managed to sometimes losing their family, their friends, their home, their money, and in some cases their lives (either by suicide or "mysterious circumstances"). Now more and more people are finding out for themselves what the cult of Scientology is all about, and it's dying. Shrinking.

Scientology claims 8 million members worldwide, but only 6,000 "Orgs". Simple elementary maths; that works out as around 1,300 members in every single building. When have you ever seen more than a couple of hundred Scientologists together at any one place (and that's for MAJOR events with huge pressure to attend, don't forget your checkbook) let alone your little local Org that maybe has 5 faces on a regular basis?
37 months ago: Marc Abfleet, you say "considered unfit for command not once, not twice but indeed three times"

It's like saying someone was executed three times. It's not even possible.
xenubarb
xenubarb
San Diego, CA
37 months ago: "Marc Abfleet, you say "considered unfit for command not once, not twice but indeed three times"

It's like saying someone was executed three times. It's not even possible."

Of course it is, you silly man! It was wartime, and the Navy kept putting Hubbard in charge of things that he messed up with his own incompetence.

Shelling the Coronado Islands.
Holding a running sea battle off Oregon with a magnetic sea bed that is still on the charts to this day!

The Navy kept passing him from command to command like an old fruitcake, and he kept screwing it up.

It's not like being executed, you funny fellow. You can only do that once.

This is the kind of logic Scientologists pay the big bucks for, folks. Incredible, isn't it!
37 months ago: You bring up an interesting point. Hubbard was known for begin able to get things done. How many men do you know who started a religion? Who published so much material, that when piled together, reaches higher than the ceiling?
37 months ago: @Terryeo
Just because you do a lot of things doesn't mean you're a smart or accomplished person. A famous general once said: I divide my officers into four classes; the clever, the lazy, the industrious, and the stupid. Most often two of these qualities come together. The officers who are clever and industrious are fitted for the highest staff appointments. Those who are stupid and lazy make up around 90% of every army in the world, and they can be used for routine work. The man who is clever and lazy however is for the very highest command; he has the temperament and nerves to deal with all situations. But whoever is stupid and industrious is a menace and must be removed immediately!

Hubbard is the last of the four. If at first you don't succeed, try try again! And again, and again, and again, and again... Spent his whole life trying to accomplish something, but he never let his repeated failures stop him! No sir! Not our Hubbard! Instead he kept on trying, and continued to fail until the very end of his life when he died lonely, in isolation, on the run from the government, and popping pills.

For the record: George Lucas started Jediism unintentionally. There's the guys who created Discordianism. Let's not forget the Flying Spaghetti Monster. And if you take all my Issac Asimov stuff together it TOTALLY hits the ceiling. Same with Stephen King

Alternative train of thought: Hubbard fails at communicating or he'd have learned how to condense down his religion. I mean, the entirety of Christianity fits into a hotel night stand drawer. FLUNK, Scientology. Rewrite.

As for Hubbard's multiple times of being relieved for command. I can AUTHORITATIVELY say it's possible. You are deemed unfit for your job, and moved somewhere else that's easier. You can then of course be found unfit for THAT one, and shuttled to somewhere else. And yes, you can be relieved YET AGAIN if you truly suck that much. Which he did. It's in the records.
xenubarb
xenubarb
San Diego, CA
37 months ago: "Who published so much material, that when piled together, reaches higher than the ceiling?"

You've obviously confused quantity with quality. They are not equal.
Scamentology
Scamentology
Pope Valley, CA
37 months ago: "How many men do you know who started a religion? Who published so much material, that when piled together, reaches higher than the ceiling? "

But if you watch the video deposition of hubbard jr you will find that he wrote most of the "tech" you refer to. And no - your scio myths site is not accurate. You would try to take over your fathers money too if you thought he was dead and some crazy cult (you may have no way of knowing its a cult from where you are)wanted the money. I may have done the same thing if my father was missing. your website made it sound like your commitment to scio was greater than a father/son bond. thats scary.
37 months ago: Why is Scientology so expensive?

If L.Ron Hubbard truly had found the secret that has eluded mankind for millenia, and it really was 'for the good of the people' to disseminate it wide, wouldn't it be free? How much does it cost to become a Christian? A Moslem? A Buddhist? A Hindu? A Hare Krishna? A Zoroastrian? A Rastafarian? The list goes on.

How many real religions not only hide, but actively work towards keeping new members away from 'upper level' materials in case they might catch pneumonia and die?

The cost - tens of thousands of dollars - per "course" which is just a step up a bridge that goes nowhere. Where are the results? After fifty years, and countless people reaching OT8, supposedly the 'pinnacle' of what a Scientologist can be, why has not one person been able to actually demonstrate any of these 'super powers'?

HCOB 10 August 82 OT MAXIMS: "THE POWER (defined as light-year-kilo-tons per micro-second) OF A THETAN IS MEASURED BY NOTHING ELSE THAN THE DISTANCE (defined as spherical spatial length) AROUND HIM IN HIS ENVIRONMENT THAT HE CAN CONTROL." L.Ron Hubbard

Hubbard once defined a thetan as: "... having no mass, no wave-length, no energy, no measurable qualities and no time or location in space except by consideration or postulate"

If a Thetan weighs nothing, and has no physical presence in the universe, then it cannot affect this universe, and thus by the simple formula of cause and effect, can exert no energy in the physical universe. Therefore, the power of a Thetan is zero.

If a Thetan can only cause things to happen by "consideration or postulate" then... isn't it all just in a person's mind?

Religion is free. Scientology is neither.
Scientia
Scientia
England
37 months ago: RE: "It was found that one of my brain chemicals was too low, which was causing my symptoms."

I mean no offence, Amanda, but you should really do some more research into your own condition. A spinal tap cannot diagnose a "mental illness", nor can it measure levels of dopamine or serotonin. Nor indeed can an MRI scan. A spinal tap is used to address or evaluate cerebrospinal fluid (CSF), and related indicators for specific neurological conditions. It cannot, however, show the existence of a mental illness, or said neurochemical imbalance in the brain. An underlying medical dysfunction may indeed cause "psychiatric symptoms", but that does not mean you have a distinct, biologically-based psychiatric "disease".

RE: "All I have to do is take an SSRI (psychiatric medication) which compensates for my bodies inability to produce normal amounts of a important chemical."

Which chemical? Do you even know? This is total junkscience. Mental "disorders" are not biological diseases. Again, there is no laboratory test that can deterimine the physical existence of any mental disorder. This is extremely well documented. The president of the APA himself has even gone on record stating that there is no "clean-cut lab test." Your SSRI is not "curing" you of anything. You may well be taking it in an attempt to suppress depressive symptoms related to your underlying medical condition, but please understand that that is all it is doing. Altering the normality of the brain to produce a temporary false state. Much like any other psychoactive substance in fact.
Scientia
Scientia
England
37 months ago: RE: "Oh also there wasn't a laboratory test for Diabetes 30yrs ago... is it not real too?"

Diabetes is a real medical condition that can be objectively diagnosed. Mental "disorders", (take "ADHD" as a more recent example) are invented labels with no objective, valid means of identification. Insulin is a natural hormone produced by the body and it is essential for life. Ritalin is a chemically derived amphetamine-like drug that is not necessary for life. Diabetes is an insulin deficiency. Attention and behavioral problems are not a Ritalin deficiency. Period.
xenubarb
xenubarb
San Diego, CA
37 months ago: Are you a doctor, Scientia? I sure hope not. Your slithery Scientology logic does not follow. Of course there isn't a "Ritalin deficiency" in people prescribed that drug. That is about the stupidest comment from one of you jokers I've read in these posts.

You spectacularly miss the point that there were no tests for certain physical ailments, and run off on a diabetic tangent. It may conveniently allow you to avoid the actual topic, but we're not falling for it.

Scientology seems to have an awfully high death rate among its older members because of this dogged "we are the experts on medicine" malarkey. People with mental illness go untreated, which has resulted in tragedy. You are NOT a doctor; in fact, you don't know dick about medicine. You prefer to rely on the junk science formulated by a hack pulp fiction writer who dropped out of college.

That alone speaks volumes about your level of "expertise" in the medical field.
37 months ago: Unfortunately Xenubarb, your knowledge isn't full, yet you criticize others. You point to

Mental Illness which even psychiatrists refuse to diagnose or treat. Mental disorders are what psychiatry deals with. And why, you should ask, does the term "mental illness" fill your mouth? It is because drug companies make great profit as they inculcate the public with this term. It is a direct substitute for the word psychiatry uses.

In fact, at the last international meeting of psychiatrists, when that groups of people last updated their diagnostic bible, they talked over the idea of using "mental illness" as their bible's title. And rejected it in favor of the term "mental disorder". Don't you think that a psychiatrist, who has studied, perhaps 8 years of medicine and perhaps, 6 years of psychology, should be able to tell you whether "illness" or "disorder" is the appropriate word?

Disorder is used because an illness would mean:

1. It can be diagnosed by tests, chemical tests, blood tests, or some similar means, such as X-ray. Mental disorders can not be diagnosed by such tests.
2. An illness would be treatable. That is, a person would begin a treatment and would improve and their improvement could be monitored, tested for, followed and understood as becoming better. Mental disorders fail an orderly treatment that can be scientifically shown.

Therefore, psychiatry itself chose -- disorders.
Scientia
Scientia
England
37 months ago: RE: "You spectacularly miss the point that there were no tests for certain physical ailments..."

So what? So you accept then that psychiatry is based on faith? Good! At least we agree on something.


RE: "You prefer to rely on the junk science formulated by a hack pulp fiction writer who dropped out of college."

This subject has nothing to do with Scientology. As I have stated before, it is well documented. Look into it for yourself, come back here and make an argument. Your continual diatribe is tired and dull, and has so far been devoid of any intellectual argument.

Some good starting points:

- Financial Ties between DSM-IV Panel Members and the Pharmaceutical Industry. Cosgrove L, Krimsky S, Vijayaraghavan M, Schneider L. Psychother Psychosom 2006;75:154-160 (DOI: 10.1159/000091772)
http://www.tufts.edu/~skrimsky/PDF/DSM%20COI.PDF

- Initial severity and antidepressant benefits: a meta-analysis of data submitted to the Food and Drug Administration. Kirsch I, Deacon BJ, Huedo-Medina TB, Scoboria A, Moore TJ, Johnson BT. PLoS Med. 2008 Feb;5(2):e45.

- Factors involved in Outcome and Recovery in Schizophrenia Patients Not on Antipsychotic Medications: A 15-year Multifollow-up Study. Martin Harrow and Thomas Jobe. Journal of Nervous and Mental Disease, 195 (2007):406-414.

Some good books I'd recommend are "Mad In America", by Pulitzer finalist & Polk Award winner Roger Whitaker, and "The Truth About The Drug Companies", by Dr. Marcia Angell, former Editor-in-Chief of the New England Journal of Medicine and member of Harvard Medical School's Department of Social Medicine.
37 months ago: Scientia
Where have you been? An evaluation Cerebral Spinal Fluid, can accurately **** the chemical levels of the brain by looking at the by products made as these chemicals are absorbed and broken down by the body. (the method of looking at by products of body chemicals is how they diagnose thyroid problems) While this is a fairly new, rarely used (and painful) diagnostic tool I can see why you are unaware of the science. The MRI was to get an accurate picture of my brain, where they found a small portion of my brain was physiologically different.

If you are right, then another disease that doesn't exist is Parkinson's disease. Since Parkinson's is caused by the insufficient formation and action of dopamine. (a neurotransmitter) Are you suggesting that Parkinson's is also not a real disease?

See, you think that Doctors should "cure" me. Is an artificial limb a cure? NO, doctors can not regrow a missing limb, nor can they change the physical differences in my brain that cause my problems. By your logic anyone who is being treated for "symptoms" and not "cured" isn't really sick? Well gee, that includes paralysis, stroke, farsightedness, nearsightedness, Flat feet, diabetes, and many others.

Speaking of Diabetes, you avoided the point I made so I'll try again to explain the correlation.

You claim there is no laboratory tests for chemical imbalance, and is therefor not real.
30 yrs ago there was no laboratory test for diabetes. So, it follows that you believe that 30 yrs ago Diabetes was not real, because there was no test for it.
Clear enough for you? Do you see the failure of your thinking?

I agree that there are problems with the current system. That doesn't mean that the scientific research that has been done is invalid. The only way to invalidate the research is to disprove it using the scientific method.
xenubarb
xenubarb
San Diego, CA
37 months ago: Aww, Terryeo, Terryeo, Terryeo!

C'mon now, you should know that you're not going to get anywhere with this pseudo-intellectual bolonium!

"You point to Mental Illness which even psychiatrists refuse to diagnose or treat. Mental disorders are what psychiatry deals with. And why, you should ask, does the term "mental illness" fill your mouth? It is because drug companies make great profit as they inculcate the public with this term. It is a direct substitute for the word psychiatry uses."

"In fact, at the last international meeting of psychiatrists, when that groups of people last updated their diagnostic bible, they talked over the idea of using "mental illness" as their bible's title. And rejected it in favor of the term "mental disorder". Don't you think that a psychiatrist, who has studied, perhaps 8 years of medicine and perhaps, 6 years of psychology, should be able to tell you whether "illness" or "disorder" is the appropriate word?"

I like how you offer an unsubstantiated "fact," and then proceed to build on it. How do I know what happened at the "last international meeting of psychiatrists?" What proof do you have that they discussed which terms to utilize? How can you possibly expect me to answer a question based on your completely undocumented account of this "international meeting?" Was it a convention? Where was it held? What was it called? When did it occur?
xenubarb
xenubarb
San Diego, CA
37 months ago:

"Disorder is used because an illness would mean:

1. It can be diagnosed by tests, chemical tests, blood tests, or some similar means, such as X-ray. Mental disorders can not be diagnosed by such tests.
2. An illness would be treatable. That is, a person would begin a treatment and would improve and their improvement could be monitored, tested for, followed and understood as becoming better. Mental disorders fail an orderly treatment that can be scientifically shown.

Therefore, psychiatry itself chose -- disorders."

That's your assertion. Now back it up like a proper debater would, with evidence. Links. Footnotes.

Just because you're used to your fellows swallowing unsubstatiated hogwash presented as fact, doesn't mean the rest of us do. Next time, bring something we can research to the table. Your "factual evidence" here is simply unacceptable. Try to do better. Maybe then, we will treat you as worthy of discourse instead of a big fancy clam pinata.
37 months ago: @Scientia

You're an idiot. "Diabetes is an insulin deficiency. Attention and behavioral problems are not a Ritalin deficiency." Your words. A perfect example of poor logic. The majority of medical issues are not deficiencies. Headaches are not an ibuprofen OR acetacylic acid OR acetaminophine (Advil, Aspirin, Tylenol) deficiencies. So clearly, headaches are junk science, as are those drugs. Allergies are not a sudaphedrine (Sudafed) deficiency, so CLEARLY that's all made up. In fact, I don't think I've suffered from a penicillin (or ANY of its derivatives) deficiency in my ENTIRE LIFE!!! YET doctors give it to me when I have an infection, so WHAT THE HELL??

The point is, medicine is not "You're missing A, so we're gonna give you pills/injections filled with A to balance it out". Medicine is more often "You've got condition B going on in you. We're gonna give you a pill/injection that has C chemical which creates a physiological response that will counter the effects of B, but since the human body is AMAZINGLY COMPLEX it is impossible to achieve a panacean condition where we just give you something and it gets all better, so there may be some additional effects that are non-desirable."

ADD/ADHD is caused by a microscopically small greater distance between synapses in the brain. This distance occasionally causes misfiring on the pathways, resulting in the inability to focus and be easily distracted. Ritalin is a stimulant, like caffeine, only stronger. It compensates by closing the synaptic gaps slightly, allowing for a greater ability to focus and remain focused. I am not a doctor, but I have ADD and have had several doctors explain to me both what it does to my physiology, and what Ritalin (and the other medications used to treat it) does.

LRN 2 SCIENCE
37 months ago: Attempting any form of rational discussion with these seriously messed-up individuals is a futile endeavour.
However, normal people may learn something about the Cult that they were not aware of so it does serve a purpose.

The only answers you will ever get, and never containing any proof or agreement other than "See for yourself, look at " are the usual "Only Criminals criticise Scientology" etc etc etc.

Google "johnalexwood", self-proclaimed Blogger-Extraordinaire and now devotee to spamming Scientology PR via Twitter. Someone who spends, what seems to be, most of his life copy-and-pasting Scientolgy PR anywhere and everywhere. Google the "school" he attended also, "Greenfields" in.... yep, East Grinstead.

Google good old "Terryeo", again someone who feels the need to constantly offer his, (or should I say Hubbard's) opinion whenever anyone criticises the Cult.
37 months ago: By all means Google "KESQ" and follow the link to their news coverage of the Cult. (It's all fake by the way, the Scientologists say that it's not the real Tomy Davies!)

Google Scientolgy 'Wins' and see how messed up these individuals are who believe that they have seen a person gain 2 inches in height after "auditing", how they claim responsibilty for fire-fighters being able to put-out fires, and how they can get a parking-space by "postulating" it.

Scientology preys on individuals who are lacking in social skills or who have mental issues or who simply need the initial "love-bombing" it offers when trying to get "Raw Meat" to join, charging them big money in the process and telling them that Psychiatry, (their only genuine source of potential help), is evil and is the cause of everything bad in the world.

Add to that their insistance on using words that simply do not exist in the English Language, their total belief that Hubbard was a good man, and the fact that they could not smell a scam from 2 feet away.....
37 months ago:
One is a joke and parody, the other two are of an organisation that claims to be a religion... you decide which is which:P
(or is there even a difference?)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVruyhtvvlQ&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-t7MV-Z6Pc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ABS0dA8KqI&feature=related
(If you can watch all 6minutes of this one without poking pencils in your eyeballs you are strong!...[I have the full 3 hour DVD of this]
Scientia
Scientia
England
37 months ago: RE: "Where have you been? An evaluation Cerebral Spinal Fluid, can accurately **** the chemical levels of the brain by looking at the by products..."

Exactly; they are indicators, and not an "accurate" measurement of neurotransmitter levels. It is also an assumption (ie. read "leap of faith") that the levels of serotonin and norepinephrine metabolites in CSF accurately reflects the amount of neurotransmitters in the brain. In fact this has never been validated. Furthermore, less than half of the serotonin and norepinephrine metabolites in the cerebrospinal fluid (or indeed urine) come from the brain (the other half come from various organs in and around the body, thus there are serious problems with what is actually being measured). There have been numerous attempts to identify reproducible neurochemical alterations in the nervous systems of patients diagnosed with mental "disorders", but so far all have failed to make any valid conclusions, with mixed findings and methodological difficulties such as very small sample sizes and uncontrolled confounding variables. In a recent review the chairman of the German Medical Board and his colleagues stated, "Reported associations of subgroups of suicidal behavior (eg. violent suicide attempts) with low CSF–5HIAA (serotonin) concentrations are likely to represent somewhat premature translations of findings from studies that have flaws in methodology". Attempts have also been made to induce depression by depleting serotonin levels, but these experiments reaped no consistent results. Likewise, researchers found that huge increases in brain serotonin, arrived at by administering high-dose L-tryptophan, were ineffective at relieving depression.
Scientia
Scientia
England
37 months ago: See also:

- Roggenbach J, Müller-Oerlinghausen B, Franke L (2002) Suicidality, impulsivity, and aggression-Is there a link to 5HIAA concentration in the cerebrospinal fluid? Psychiatry Res 113: 193–206

- Heninger G, Delgado P, Charney D (1996) The revised monoamine theory of depression: A modulatory role for monoamines, based on new findings from monoamine depletion experiments in humans. Pharmacopsychiatry 29: 2–11

- Mendels J, Stinnett J, Burns D, Frazer A (1975) Amine precursors and depression. Arch Gen Psychiatry 32: 22–30
Scientia
Scientia
England
37 months ago: RE: "If you are right, then another disease that doesn't exist is Parkinson's disease. Since Parkinson's is caused by the insufficient formation and action of dopamine. (a neurotransmitter) Are you suggesting that Parkinson's is also not a real disease?"

The diagnosis of Parkinson's is based predominantly on a rating scale questionnaire (UPDRS) but at least it can be objectively validated at autopsy. The same cannot be said of ANY "mental illness".
Scientia
Scientia
England
37 months ago: RE: "You claim there is no laboratory tests for chemical imbalance, and is therefor not real."

No, you misunderstand. I do not doubt that underlying problems exist. Of course I do. But I do argue the existence of the -psychiatric labels-, these distinct "one-size-fits all" diseases that have been invented (remember that many of them were voted into existence by a show of hands) to categorise the human condition.

It is fraudulent to promote these "disorders" as medical, neurological, or due to a "chemical imbalance", as such basis has never been validated. It is also fraudulent to market an arguably dangerous drug as "medication", as an effective method of correcting a so-called imbalance that has never been proved to exist.
xenubarb
xenubarb
San Diego, CA
37 months ago: geez. The only thing worse than ignorance is someone with pretensions of knowlege.

There is no point in arguing with these people, they "know" they're right and have the certainty of their convictions.

Absolutely no point in trying to enlighten them. Everyone is wrong but them. Yeah, I'm looking at you phony Scientology jokers who think there's actually science in Scientology.

PROTIP: THERE IS NO SCIENCE IN SCIENTOLOGY, and damn little ology as well.
37 months ago: Conclusion: Mental "disorders" are completely untestable, subjective and unverifiable. They are theories or opinions, not electronic facts.
37 months ago: Scientia,

Do you understand how an "indicator" works? You start with a baseline. You compare the sample, and then you can determine a result. If, and this is now based upon assumptions, the indicator is shown to be within say 85% of a given range, that gives you a relatively accurate indicator. It's called statistics. Scientologists fail at math, this is a demonstratable fact. Numbers don't lie, Scientologists do, hence the incompatability.
They aren't assumptions, they are educated guesses. They're using facts at hand that have been determined using scientific protocols. That means these tests, when performed on the same subject, will repeatedly and reliably return the same result.

Now, get out of my science.

Jack H Remington,
You have a serious MU on "electronic facts". There's no such thing. There are simply facts. They're not electronic, they're not digital, they're not analog. They are just facts.
Mental disorders are completely testable. People don't just walk into a room, a man behind a curtain spins a wheel and says "Looks like you got autism today. Come back next week, let's see if you don't land on schizophrenia." That's not how it works, no matter what they tell you in the Org.
Scientia
Scientia
England
37 months ago: RE: "They aren't assumptions, they are educated guesses. They're using facts at hand that have been determined using scientific protocols. That means these tests, when performed on the same subject, will repeatedly and reliably return the same result"

Did you even bother to read the studies referenced? Have you looked at the work that been done in this area?? Thank you so much for the "Science for Dummies" lecture, but before you even attempt to make an argument on this particular issue please make every effort to understand it first. Look at the actual studies that have been done! Read my post again, do your homework and come back here with a valid argument.
37 months ago: "Conclusion: Mental "disorders" are completely untestable, subjective and unverifiable. They are theories or opinions, not electronic facts." Jack H Remington

Conclusoin: Scientology "boosting" sexual drive is completely untestable, subjective and unverifiable. It isa theory or an opinion, not an electronic fact.
37 months ago: Here you go Scientologists. An article on "psych" illnesses caused by severe child abuse and how it affected the formation of the brain in those that were abused.

http://www.cbc.ca/health/story/2009/02/23/child-abuse-brain.html

Child abuse actually affected these people on a genetic level and altered their ability to deal with stress, and caused depression. This is all varifiable by using actual science! The only problem is short of cutting people's heads open and removing chunks of brain there is no way to currently perform the test, which is why it had to be done on corpses.

So there you go. Medical proof that some of what you classify as "psych" illnesses have a real, testable symptom that affects people down to a genetic level and fundimentally alters their DNA.

Please... comment.
37 months ago: Was the child beat in the womb or once it was born. While you make some interesting discoveries, I don't think that child abuse is a mutagen.
37 months ago: No, it's caused by long term child abuse on people, not in fetuses.

The basic gist of the study was that environment effects whether or not certain switches within DNA are turned on or off.

It's not altering DNA in the sense of "instead of hands we now grow flippers" it's more like "these recessive traits are generally turned off but through environmental factors they can be activated". Child abuse happens to be one of the ones that trigger the parts of DNA that are there to help people deal with stress.

The point being is that all the Scientologists are claiming that there's no way to test for "psych" illnesses such as depression or suicidal tendencies but this study shows that in some cases there are. Which leads to, if it's true in some cases, then why not others?

It also flat out states that once they have a way of testing without having to hack someone's brain up the treatments will most likely remain the same ("psych" drugs). At least for the short term, until other treatments can be figured out.

One closing note: for the Scientologists who claim that the psych drugs found in Hubbard's body can be used as an anti-histamine (sp?). True: However that wasn't figured out until years after Hubbard's death. So unless Hubbard's future thetan travelled back in time and told him how to stop his sniffles it was 100% used as a psych drug at that time. Hence people saying Hubbard died with psych drugs in his system.
MikeMercer
MikeMercer
Glenn Dale, MD
37 months ago: Electronic facts:

When resistances R1, R2, R3, ... are connected in series, the total resistance RS is:
RS = R1 + R2 + R3 + ...
When a voltage is applied to a circuit containing capacitance, current flows to accumulate charge in the capacitance:
Q = idt = CV

Alternatively, by differentiation with respect to time:
dq/dt = i = C dv/dt
Note that the rate of change of voltage has a polarity which opposes the flow of current.
The capacitance C of a circuit is equal to the charge divided by the voltage:
C = Q / V = idt / V
If a voltage E is applied to a series circuit comprising a discharged capacitance C and a resistance R, then after time t the current i, the voltage vR across the resistance, the voltage vC across the capacitance and the charge qC on the capacitance are:
i = (E / R)e - t / CR
vR = iR = Ee - t / CR
vC = E - vR = E(1 - e - t / CR)
qC = CvC = CE(1 - e - t / CR)

I'm just sayin'.

MikeMercer
MikeMercer
Glenn Dale, MD
37 months ago: Oh, and my guess that the con man LRH didn't understand that stuff any more than he understood physics or medicine.
He had a love of story telling and some talent for doing so "on the fly" but his writing was sub par, his music was awful and his work in other fields almost non-existant.
Truth is: Hubbard was just not that bright a guy.
Scientia
Scientia
England
37 months ago: RE: "Here you go Scientologists. An article on "psych" illnesses caused by severe child abuse and how it affected the formation of the brain in those that were abused."

So which "mental illness" is actually being tested/validated here? Child abuse is not a disorder. Go back and try again.
37 months ago: RE: "So which "mental illness" is actually being tested/validated here? Child abuse is not a disorder. Go back and try again."

Did you bother to read the article? They tested the brains of people who committed suicide. Suicidal tendancies are very much a psychological disorder.

If I have to spell it out for you: child abuse lead to genetic change which resulted in a decreased ability to handle stress. The decreased ability to handle stress lead to these people committing suicide. That's a vary simplified explanation but you seem kind of simple.

Point is, read the article, read the study then come back and comment. It was pretty in depth, using the brains of regular people, people who committed suicide without child abuse, and people who suffered severe child abuse, who then committed suicide. The same genetic "switch" was found turned on in the child abuse victims that wasn't found in the other two groups.

Or are you just dense and are saying that child abuse doesn't cause psychological effects in it's victims?

The conclusion to this whole deal is, there has now been shown a medical link between abuse and the psychological effects that come out of that. If they weren't abused the genetic switch would not have flipped and they would have been better at being able to handle stress. The trick is now to find the genetic switches that cause other disorders.

Again, it's a lot more scientifically in depth then that but for the general person that's a fairly short answer.
xenubarb
xenubarb
San Diego, CA
37 months ago: Are you being ingenuous? "Child abuse is not a disorder."

No kidding, genius! But it can lead to subtle, permanent changes in the brain, just as experiments have shown a lack of stimulation in a developing brain will result fewer ridges and folds, proving that stupid is not always genetic in nature.

This is called 'cause and effect,' and has nothing to do with Hubbard's nonsense. The abuse is the cause, not the disorder.

Your slithery diversion is apparently a symptom of Scientology mental conditioning, as we've seen the same thing from Jack here. Terryeo seems not to read articles, merely posting generalized promotional paragraphs about Scientology.

For some reason, Scientologists seem incapable of sticking to a topic and discussing it. They try to steer the direction of debate off into a side issue such as "child abuse is not a disease," where the discussion might not be as challenging.

Scientologists have no idea how dumb they look when they do this in front of intelligent, educated opponents. Unfortunately, it is so predictable and expected, this tactic doesn't work as well as it once did.
Scientia
Scientia
England
37 months ago: RE: "Did you bother to read the article? They tested the brains of people who committed suicide. Suicidal tendancies are very much a psychological disorder."

"Suicidal tendencies" is not a mental "disorder" or "illness" as defined by psychiatry. It may be a ~symptom~ of a ~specific~ "disorder" (such as "major depressive disorder", for example), but it is not a distinct "illness" in itself. See DSM-IV and/or ICD-10.

It is an interesting study for sure, but it is entirely irrelevant to this argument. Please realise the researchers were not actually testing for a specific "mental illness". (In fact there was no mention of whether the individuals had even been diagnosed with any "mental illness" prior to their death). If you are going to use studies to support an argument, please ensure you understand what is being studied, and are able to effectively analyse the results. (For a full analysis, please see "Epigenetic regulation of the glucocorticoid receptor in human brain associates with childhood abuse"; Patrick O McGowan1,2, Aya Sasaki1,2, Ana C D'Alessio3, Sergiy Dymov3, Benoit Labonté1,4, Moshe Szyf2,3, Gustavo Turecki1,4 & Michael J Meaney1,2,5; Nature Neuroscience 12, 342 - 348 (2009) doi:10.1038/nn.2270).
xenubarb
xenubarb
San Diego, CA
37 months ago: ""Suicidal tendencies" is not a mental "disorder" or "illness"..."

Oh, there you go again with your misleading, ignorant balonium!
Get over it. Suicide is not a disease. Child abuse is not a disease. However, suicidal tendencies can stem from a history of child abuse. One is a contributing factor to the other in some people.

Some people have survived horrific treatment and grew up to lead normal lives.

Other people snap, killing themselves or others, or continue the cycle of abuse in their own adult lives.

Wow, fancy reference you give there. Please define 'Epigenetic and glucocorticoid receptor,' so we can tell you're not just throwing big words around to convince us of your massive knowledge of the field.

Also, a link should be provided. If you can't offer one, it's likely you are simply parroting the material provided to you by CCHR or Scientology.

Please explain what you think glucocorticoid receptor means, and how it relates to this topic, since you can't really seem to refer to any online information we can actually access.

37 months ago: Scientia - Suicidal tendancies are a symptom of multiple mental disorders. Could you please provide an example of a time that suicidal tendancies is NOT related to a mental disorder?

You're intentionally being obtuse here. Medical science shows a physical link between something misfiring in the body and symptoms of mental illness. Scientology claims there's no science behind the diagnosing of mental illnesses. Here's the damn science. It shows a medical cause for a specific symptom.

That's all diseases are, a series of symptoms. You seem to think that there's supposed to be some magical test that automatically tells you what disease you have. There almost never is. It is looking at the symptoms and eliminating possabilities.

For example: You aren't feeling well, so the doctor draws blood and you have a high white cell count. All that proves is you are sick, not what you are sick with. It could be anything from the flu, to an infection to cancer.

This is another medical test. It isn't something specific like a TB test which would be run once a number of possibilities have been ruled out. It's a first or second step test (assuming it didn't destroy the crap out of people's brains) like a blood test or an MRI. It is used to find the medical reason for symptoms. This symptom just happens to be the desire to kill oneself.
Scientia
Scientia
England
37 months ago: RE: "Scientology claims there's no science behind the diagnosing of mental illnesses. Here's the damn science. It shows a medical cause for a specific symptom."

These "disorders" are marketed and diagnosed as distinct "illnesses", not symptoms of another disease - please refer to the DSM IV or the ICD-10 for full listings. The psychopharmaceutical industry submits it's drugs to regulatory bodies as forms of "treatment" for these distinct mental "illnesses". Clinical trials undertaken to determine their efficacy are based on specific mental "illnesses". If the regulators grant approval, they are approved for the "treatment" of a specific mental "illness", not a "symptom" or generic feeling of unhappiness or psychological upset.

The study shows a psychological CAUSE (child abuse) and a neurological EFFECT (epigenetic variations). That is all. We know that thought can affect the body biologically - it's a fascinating subject for sure - but that is not the argument. The issue here is whether "mental illness", as defined by psychiatry, has a specific medical CAUSE. (Please understand the difference between cause and effect). The American Psychiatric Association has itself admitted that there is no such evidence; that there are indeed no valid tests to show such a thing. As much as I hate to say it, I'm with the psychs on this one. But if you still wish to disagree, I'm sure the international medical and psychiatric community would be very interested to hear from you...!
37 months ago: Lol, scientology critics win in this post.
34 months ago: Anonymous is the publicity wing of Scientology
see here - http://jwmadison.wordpress.com/2009/07/18/anonymous/
Louanne
Louanne
Los Angeles, CA
33 months ago: Jack H Remington is a troll, not a scientologist. He utterly fails to trick a real Scientology member.

- L
33 months ago: I totally agree. "Terryeo" is also a fake Scientologist.

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