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Religious question...ask the non-believers?!?!

Posted 20 months ago|198 comments|1,346 views
Written by
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
http://tinyurl.com/366d93p

Just thought this was interesting. Found this article today while eating lunch. First, I personally was not surprised by the fact that Atheists and Agnostics scored much higher than religious folks as most of the atheists and agnostics I know (myself included) tend to be more open minded when studying the religions of the world; so having a greater knowledge makes sense.

Surprising to me was how poorly devout Catholics performed as they tend to be some of the most vocal and out going in "sharing" their version and interpretation of religion (the only group I know that is more vocal would be Evangelicals, but they are also crazy so I typically don't take them seriously).

Towards the end of the article there are a few possible reasons, mostly that once people are set in their particular religion they tend to stop studying religion so much, but I'm not entirely sure that I buy this explanation as that doesn't explain why atheists no more about Catholicism than Catholics and more about Protestantism than Protestants (though it would explain why Atheists know more about Catholicism than Protestants and vice-versa).
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COMMENTS
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
20 months ago: Maybe they just study up on it more so they can argue with the religious ones. Or maybe their life is lacking something, and they try to find it through religion, and never quite make the connection. The Pew group is fairly credible, and not known for slanting their studies, so it could be true. What I have found is that too many people just accept blindly what they are told without doing the proper studies, and associate the clergy and the church for God. One thing is for certain, the enemy knows more about God and scripture than any man or woman alive.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
20 months ago: The study shows that most Atheists were raised in religious house holds and consciously gave up religion.

I don't think its for argument's purpose...I truly believe it is because Atheists are more open minded (in terms of religious tolerance) than theists.
20 months ago: Atheists and Christians have a lot in common. Christians tend to disbelieve in 99.99% of the same deities that atheists disbelieve in. If a person has settled on a religion, that might likely be where they find their explanations for the big questions. Someone without a settled religion might be more ready to search and see what is on offer, as it were, and more interested in the origins, commonalities and differences in religions, without having a horse in the race. (But they might end up backing all the horses to lose.)
20 months ago: I can confirm what you are saying for me.
Paper Tiger
Paper Tiger
England
20 months ago: I think people become Atheist because a religion was chosen for them when they were born. Religion, in that sense is not a choice, you were, branded, from birth with someone else's values.

Atheism is not so much a disbelief in God, it is the pause button until they find something that they think suits them and their life style.

In my humble opinion atheists like to settle down first and listen to their peers, coaches and mentors.

Once they decide what social circle they belong to they choose a religion, a bit like wallpaper, paint or furniture for their house. Having rediscovered God in their new religion they are active members of their church.

They sing a little bit loader than anybody else, they are seen to pray with more enthusiasm than most. Everything they do that is good is done in front of a crowd.

Now I know many of you will disagree with this, but near where I live there is a church. If you go into that church on a Sunday it is half full, or half empty.

Once or twice a year the church service is broadcast on a major T.V. channel. The church is then packed to the rafters, people are standing outside craning to see and hear the service. Every one there has got new clothes on and they are so deep in their worship nothing distracts them.

If these people are really God fearing people why did they not go to a later service. There would be no standing outside, less people for God to listen to at the same time, and more people in casual clothes so they could relax more.

Is there a correlation between who believe and those who want to be seen believing?
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
20 months ago: Interesting perspective, especially the bit about that church near your home. Reminds me of all the Catholics who are only super duper devout Catholics on Easter and Christmas.

As for the first part about finding the religion that is right for the individual, I would say that sounds more like the path of an agnostic. Most of the people I know that are atheists (myself included) have studied the world around us and have determined that the existence of a deity of any sort does not exist.

Some of us are more vocal than others. Personally I have no problem with people worshiping or having faith if it is what they need to do for their lives; it just doesn't work for me.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
20 months ago: Here's what I can't understand. People of faith and people of no faith who feel it necessary to ridicule and cajole others who do not believe the same as themselves. It's one thing to just say "I don't believe that." It's another thing to do everything you can to undermine a person's belief system. Be secure enough in your own position that you can weather someone else's misconceptions.

Even Jesus said go ye therefore and spread the news. He didn't say "convince everyone you are right and they are wrong, no matter what it takes."
20 months ago: Don't seek religion, seek the true creator. He's is a living God, if you seek Him with all of your heart, you will find him. Going into McDonald's does not make you a hamburger.

Box, that is a true statement, I tell my story and spread the new, and only answer questions. If you were not concerned and inquisitive you would not read what I write. Let's face, whether you like it or not, being concerned about, when the body wears out, only a fool would say otherwise.
20 months ago: To me a connection with one's Creator is a rational and logical necessity to fully experience all that life has to offer. If someone else doesn't understand that, rejects it, or thinks it's foolishness, okay. It's their life.

I just believe there is a better way.

When the show is over let's just hope we made a lasting impact on this planet for the better for folks other than just ourselves. Otherwise what a waste.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
20 months ago: Your approach is unique among religious people and I commend you for it.

"a connection with one's Creator is a rational and logical necessity to fully experience all that life has to offer"

I am very close with my parents.
20 months ago: Sure. I can get to that.

It's wonderful to have parents we can love on and appreciate. Not everyone is so blessed or fortunate.

Aristotle -
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."

All of us should never be afraid to learn something new, to think of something in a different way, to consider what we may never have taken seriously before, or to even change our perspective on life and meaning.

Never throw out the baby with the bathwater.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
20 months ago: I am open minded about religion. I have tried several and studied many more. I have tried to find something in life that can make me believe that there is even the remote possibility that there is a God; the simple fact of the matter is that I have not ever seen anything that has even made me say "hmm, maybe he does exist" and such I have accepted Atheism as the only logical way to live life for me. With that, the only creators I have are my parents and I have a great relationship with them. Aristotle was a brilliant man, I feel that I have entertained the thought for a very long time and simply have never found anything to make me feel it could be true.
20 months ago: The intricacies and complexities of what we can and cannot see with the naked eye, the universal acknowledgement of the beauty of this world and universe, the fact that matter is not eternal, as well as the existence of love and compassion are just some of the evidences that move me to my particular view.

I respect where you are. There is so much junk out there that claims to speak for "God" its a wonder anyone can see clear at all. As it stands, I believe all of our vision is blurry at some points.

This is a good and contemplative post that you've put together.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
20 months ago: I understand that the "miracles" of the world are something that often are cited as the reason for finding spirituality or being driven to a particular religion; and I respect that. On that note I actually find the beliefs of the Wiccans, Druids, Pantheists and other pagan and neopagan religions more compelling. The true beauty of life is surrounding us every day (especially during the Fall months :D) and worshiping nature to me is more spiritual than the other forms of religion I have tried and or studied.
20 months ago: I've been involved in or have looked at pantheism and animism as well. For me it falls short because If I were to follow that, I would be elevating the creation above the Creator.

Again, since matter is not eternal, it had to come from somewhere. Since information cannot be created on its own, it must have an origin as well. Those are some of the thoughts and reflections that drive me past the physical and into the spiritual.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
20 months ago: Pantheism does not put creation above the creator. It is the belief that God is in everything. Nature = God in pantheism. Druidism has a similar view. Wiccan's are more closely tied to the Celts but still Pagan in there beliefs.

I think the difference between you and I is that while I also believe that matter came from somewhere, I believe it came from a different source than you...which really would be the only point of contention that I have detected so far.
20 months ago: Yes. Your definition of pantheism is more accurate. However, where I'm from, putting the Creator on equal footing with the creation is to take the Creator down a peg.

Be that as it may, neither of us can prove where matter came from. Neither of us was there and science has absolutely no answer.

The second law of thermodynamics illustrates that matter had to have a beginning and an origin.

As far as information, the only place I have witnessed information come from is from intelligence. Who or what is the ultimate source of that intelligence is leads to the conversations and inevitable debates.

It all still boils down to faith (or belief, if you prefer) based upon our searching, or experience and the information we have gleaned which we believe to be trustworthy, reliable and or credible.

Makes the journey ever more interesting. Never a dull moment.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
20 months ago: I understand now. For me the thought that the Creator (if there is one) is still living in everything makes it more real to me, more plausible. If I can touch a tree, and the tree is god then I can touch God and in my head this makes more sense than the more mainstream religions.

1000% agree on the proof issue. Science has answers (unproven). Religion has answers (unproven). Though String Theory is interesting insofar as it fits into the Theory of Everything, but still...just a theory.

In my opinion, the type of intelligence and information you are referring to is more a product of evolution rather than some grand design. I will note that my perspective here is based on the fact that you can physically see the evolution of information and intelligence over time; especially now in the information age we live in (ex. Facebook can accurately predict people's relationship changes 1 week before they actually occur; this is based on the way that information is analyzed...this type of technology didn't exist 5 years ago when Facebook was founded and in this case you can witness the evolution in real time).

That last part about boiling down to faith...could you expand this a bit. I am not following exactly what you mean here.

20 months ago: How many times does it take to blow up a printing press to come up with the Declaration of Independence?
20 months ago: Also PH - you were speaking of the evolution of information. Where do you believe the original information comes from that is "evolving"? I'm curious.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
20 months ago: That's the question.

Microscopic organisms billions of years ago developed into more advanced creatures. As this happened intelligence started to develop. Over time this intelligence has reached the level it has come to today; and such intelligence fed information as organisms developed better understandings of the world.
20 months ago: That's also the problem. The scenario you propose has to be accepted by faith. A huge amount of faith at that.

The picture you painted is as likely to happen as exploding the printing press and getting an error-free copy of the Declaration of Independence.

As far as I know, there is no known law of nature, no known process and no known sequence of events, no proven set of circumstances or scenarios which can cause information to originate all by itself in matter.

You could have a trillion billion years and that is just not going to happen.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
20 months ago: 1000% agreement. I was simply providing an additional scenario to the Creationist one. They both have the exact same problem in that nothing can be proven (at this time).

Regardless, I live my life with an outlook to try and do good for the world. I try to make a positive impact; just because I do it out of a more humanist approach and you do it out of a moralist/religious approach doesn't make either of us better than the other and that truly is the key to a better life for everyone (in my opinion).
20 months ago: The probability of information arising by chance is zero.

http://il.youtube.com/watch?v=g0cjCZEjVR...

All we would need to hear are those simple tones from outer-space and their would be a mad dash to find the intelligent source behind it.

A basic understanding of the complex nature and the information stored in a DNA molecule should be sufficient to convince any one that it was designed and did not just happen on its own.

That being said, I wish you the best.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
20 months ago: I disagree with the DNA as reason to believe it was designed. It makes the most sense in terms of logic and development. It is incredibly simple, yet able to contain the information necessary. It is the perfect example of efficiency which is, to me, the reason that I believe it is a natural and evolving thing.
20 months ago: Simple? It is the most densely packed and elaborately detailed assembly of information in the known universe.

Information must have an origin. It does not appear in matter spontaneously. All information has intelligence and thought behind it. Again we are back to the explosion of the printing press producing a legible document again. Not going to happen no matter how many billion and billions of years go by.

That being said, many do themselves a disservice when they take the absolute stance that there is absolutely no possibility of design behind biological organisms. That dogmatic philosophical outlook just does not make rational or logical sense given the evidence.

To say one is not sure is one thing. To say "absolutely no way" is something quite different.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
20 months ago: You are right that DNA is complex, but just like everything else in the universe, it is made up of progressively smaller and less complex parts. It's going to take a while for science to fully understand something as complex as DNA, but they are making steady progress everyday. No one knows exactly how it came about, but what science does know is there are fundamental laws that are self organizing. Gravity doesn't need any direction to pull matter together to form stars and planets. The nuclear forces don't need to be able to think to make stars shine and make more complex molecules out of less complex ones. Chemical reactions don't need an instruction manual to recombine into more complex structures. If you could comprehend the time frame of billions of years, I'm sure it would be easier for you to see how matter can grow more complex with simply random interactions. Don't confuse this with blind chance, because natural selection keeps the hits (what works) and discards the misses. Monkeys pounding away on keyboards would likely never type Hamlet by random chance, but if a simple program is applied (akin to natural selection), that keeps the hits, then the entire play can be written in only a matter of days. Nature works like this whether you are willing to admit it or not.
20 months ago: "Nature works like this whether you are willing to admit it or not"

Totally unproven. No universal consensus there at all.

Environmental changes and mutations are chance-driven occurrences that would not be expected to tend toward biological improvements. Research shows that environmental changes are just as random as mutations. But limits are necessary to the amount of luck allowed into science--otherwise, it degenerates into magic.

My faith in man's assumptions with regard to the unproven theories of the origin of life in this universe is not so great that I commit what would be for me intellectual suicide to unquestioningly believe them.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
20 months ago: Evolution/natural selection are WIDELY accepted as scientific fact.

My intellectual suicide would be to believe in something that has not even an ounce of provability (religion). Even if you don't accept evolution as fact there is vast evidence supporting it...there is not so much as a shred of evidence supporting the existence of God.
20 months ago: "there is not so much as a shred of evidence supporting the existence of God."

You really need to re-read what I've written. I don't know how, but you missed it somewhere. There's plenty of evidence, you choose to look the other way. That's okay. That's your prerogative. I just don't get it. But, whatever, it's your life.
20 months ago: UH...

...Evolution/natural selection are WIDELY accepted as scientific fact...

Proven fact? Where is the scientific proof? Is it not just your religion?
Gregoire
Gregoire
20 months ago: God has a good laugh when men debate his existence.
And since I have been won over by his grace to appreciate those things which make him jovial, I am glad for each and every atheist.
20 months ago: Is this biblical knowledge about God's laughter and moods, or a subjective personal experience?
20 months ago: I mean, I'd like to know that God was laughing at the things that I find ridiculous, but I can't tell you that He does.

If atheists are going to hell, I wonder at the compassion demonstrated by this laughter. It would seem in poor taste, and I would expect better of Him.
Content Removed by Stan Five
Altruist
Altruist
Eugene, OR
20 months ago: I think that many atheists and agnostics were raised in a religion. If they are open minded and curious, once they start reading the Old Testament and all of the cruelty and violence, they realize that doesn't jibe with the Peace and Love of the new testament.

So then they figure maybe their religion has it wrong, they study other religions to see if they make more sense.

The more they become based on reality science and facts, the less the organized religions make sense, so they abandon them.

Curiosity, open mindedness and rationality is why atheists and agnostics know more about religions.
20 months ago: A farmer went out to scatter seed in a field. While the farmer was doing it, some of the seeds fell along the road and were stepped on or eaten by birds.

Other seeds fell on rocky ground and started growing. But the plants did not have enough water and soon dried up.

Some other seeds fell where thorn bushes grew up and choked the plants.
The rest of the seeds fell on good ground where they grew and produced a hundred times as many seeds. When Jesus had finished speaking, he said, "If you have ears, pay attention!"

Jesus' disciples asked him what the story meant.
So he answered: I have explained the secrets about God's kingdom to you, but for others I can only use stories. These people look, but they don't see, and they hear, but they don't understand.

This is what the story means: The seed is God's message,
and the seeds that fell along the road are the people who hear the message. But the devil comes and snatches the message out of their hearts, so that they will not believe and be saved.

The seeds that fell on rocky ground are the people who gladly hear the message and accept it. But they don't have deep roots, and they believe only for a little while. As soon as life gets hard, they give up.

The seeds that fell among the thorn bushes are also people who hear the message. But they are so eager for riches and pleasures that they never produce anything.

Those seeds that fell on good ground are the people who listen to the message and keep it in good and honest hearts. They last and produce a harvest.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
20 months ago: Why is it you feel the need to assume that your religion is the only "good" one?
20 months ago: There is only ONE Creator, "I am the way, the truth and the live" all others are deceivers. This is not a club ware everyone selects what association or sport he likes.

There is only one God that make you.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
20 months ago: "There is only one God that make you. "

According to you.

How about Hinduism? Judaism? Paganism? All of these are MUCH older than the religion you practice. What makes you right and them wrong?
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
20 months ago: No sir...once again you failed to prove anything. You are only speaking of what your religion has taught you. You have ZERO proof that your religion and your God exist or are true. Hinduism is MUCH MUCH MUCH older than Christianity...just because you want it to be true doesn't make it true. Provide real proof and then it would be far more convincing.

P.S. Anything that a Christian minister/Priest says doesn't count. The Bible doesn't count either.
20 months ago: If you really want to learn about the one and only God, look at the above, if not you may never find the truth. This is someone who really believed that his god was "the God"
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
20 months ago: "one and only God"

Prove it.

It's not what you believe...its what you can PROVE. PROVE to me that your God is the only God.

This is the reason I am an Atheist...I couldn't bring myself to disrespect all the other people in the world by telling them what they believe is false when I could no more prove what I was taught to be true.
20 months ago: You are totally lost.
20 months ago: I have posted 14 personal testimonies and a great testimony of an EX terrorist, you refuse to read and see, and you keep telling me to prove it.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
20 months ago: I'm not lost. I'm not the one who bases my life on a story book. I am also not the one who blindly believes in something that literally has 0% chance of ever being proven.

Personal testimony proves nothing. If you believe I murdered a person does that mean that I did it? No, its not what you believe its what you can prove.

You are the exact type of person that causes Atheists to lash out at. You cannot prove a single thing you believe in, yet you have the nerve to tell other people that the things they believe are wrong because its different than your own beliefs. You, and everyone like you, make up a group of people that are very near the top of the "Most Despicable" list.
20 months ago: I suppose you would like the creator of the universe to give you a personal tour of Heaven? You will find out the truth out in the near future.

You have made your choice. And you have the right to do that.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
20 months ago: Nice cop-out. Translation: I can't prove it.

Heaven doesn't exist. My creators are my parents. The truth is that you, and people like you, are despicable. You are filled with hate because of your religion.
20 months ago: Just the opposite, I am filled with LOVE because God wants not to perish, and I am trying to convince you of that, but you refuse the FREE gift.

God so loved the world that He sent His only Son to did for YOU, so that through him, you will have eternal life. Chose life or chose death, it's a free choice.

The next time I speak to the Lord, I will tell Him you want a tour, but don't hold your breath.

By you rejecting God is hate, because He made you not your mom & dad, He made them as well,
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
20 months ago: Did God tell you to call every Muslim a terrorist?

God did not make me. God does not exist. Provide me with absolute concrete evidence to the opposite and I will then consider it. Until then I will choose to not accept any fictional gifts from a fictional being from a fictional book (a book and religion by the way that was created to oppress people into doing what the Monarchs wanted).
20 months ago: After Jesus had risen from the grave.

John 20:25 So they told him, "We have seen the Lord!" But Thomas said, "First, I must see the nail scars in his hands and touch them with my finger. I must put my hand where the spear went into his side. I won't believe unless I do this!"
A week later the disciples were together again. This time, Thomas was with them. Jesus came in while the doors were still locked and stood in the middle of the group. He greeted his disciples
and said to Thomas, "Put your finger here and look at my hands! Put your hand into my side. Stop doubting and have faith!"

Thomas replied, "You are my Lord and my God!"
Jesus said, "Thomas, do you have faith because you have seen me? The people who have faith in me without seeing me are the ones who are really blessed!"
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
20 months ago: Bible quotes don't count. Its a fictional work.
20 months ago: Afshine, was a Hezbollah soldier. You are skimming and not looking, the boat will leave without you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5dRqpPLD...

Would you like to take part in this war to believe? I will see if it can be arranged.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
20 months ago: Fair enough. Do you or do you not plan on attempting to prove that God exists?
20 months ago: Is this what we could call a standoff?
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
20 months ago: Typical Far Right Wing Christian Whackjob...you get to the point where you lose the argument so you just start rambling on about nothing...
20 months ago: I have tried to share the message of love and redemption, but you have close your mind and heart. Jesus made you and He loves you. I will not imposed my will on you, I have been reminded by the King of Kings that it is FREE will and FREE choice, Signing out.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
20 months ago: Not a surprising reaction. It is the same reaction that comes from those like you.

I am not closing my mind...I am opening it. I have chosen to not be lied to. To not be ruled by a story book.
20 months ago: P.S. Thank you for writing this post, and I am pleased that you received a lot of feedback.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
20 months ago: Thank you.
20 months ago: Whoa!! Time out!!

PH the Atheist asked...

...Fair enough. Do you or do you not plan on attempting to prove that God exists?...

PH, your answer is the fact that your Mom and Dad formed a union which produced a by-product. That by-product we all know as Perfect Horizon.

The Perfect Horizon name does not fit the crime.
20 months ago: Horizon. "Heaven doesn't exist. My creators are my parents".

You mean they MADE you all by themselves? Tell me they built a robot, but a human? Only God can do that. If you tried to take credit for one of my inventions, that would be infringement.
20 months ago: Back and forth, no consensus other than those that believe in the Christian God, have no way to prove anything and those that don't, can't prove He doesn't exist. Since it's easy to prove things that really exist do exist, and hard to disprove a myth, I'll stay on the side that can prove things and uses more logic than faith.

Huey, you said: "My faith in man's assumptions with regard to the unproven theories of the origin of life in this universe is not so great that I commit what would be for me intellectual suicide to unquestioningly believe them." Then why do you commit intellectual suicide and unquestioningly believe in religious stories, namely the Bible? Please don't attempt to tell me that you questioned the stories and found them to be true, because you cannot prove much more than the geographical locations and maybe the physical buildings cause they are still there.

You told PH that you had provided plenty of evidence for the existence of God in your previous writings. Huey, only someone who already believes in God can accept that evidence as proof so you have proved nothing, all your evidence is subjective to already believing.

Ed, what can I say? Two biologically compatible beings came together, mixed their reproductive devices and a new being was formed in the normal, cell splitting manner. No Deity was involved, no magic, just two consenting humans.
20 months ago: Wrong. PH has proven nothing with regard to the non-existence of a Creator.

I never attempted to prove anything with regard to the Creator's existence. Like our founders said, many things are "self-evident."

I ask questions of all things all the time. There are certain things that are just settled based on the questioning and my coming to grips with the truth during the course of my life. If someone else does not see it the way I see it, oh well.

Information does not come from nothing, matter is not eternal, and explosions do not create order and complexity. If someone wants to exercise their faith to swallow that, so be it. They can believe their "stories" and I'll believe mine. I know Whose I am and I am quite thrilled about it. Makes for a very exciting life for me.

I just glad that not everyone is unreasonable or close minded and that many who read this post will glean information and insight they may not have been exposed to before. In that sense, this has been time well spent.
20 months ago: No Huey, I'm not wrong. Read it again.
20 months ago: As simply as that? God not only dis He make us, He knows every heir on our heads. And don't forget, He loves you Six.
20 months ago: Yes Ed, as simple as that. And I do not feel any love coming from your imaginary being. Sure doesn't show any to anyone else either. In fact he seems to be ignoring all of you who believe in him quite well. No cancer cures, drunk drivers still kill people, there are still poor people all over the world, people still die from not having anything to eat, hurricanes still blow away peoples houses and tornados still kill indiscriminately. I could go on and on and EVERY item I list will be something that thousands of devout Christians have asked their God to fix, probably thousands of times and after all these hundreds of years of asking and giving billions of dollars to multitudes of charlatan collectors called priests, preachers, ministers, nuns and clergy, not one of those prayers has been answered collectively. There might be a few individuals who seem to have been cured, fed or rescued or whatever but they are few and far between and there is almost always another human doing the feeding, rescuing or medical treatments.

Oh that's right, God was guiding them, putting food in their hands to give to someone else and magically fixing the sick ones.

Yeah, rrrriiiiiiight.
20 months ago: "I'll stay on the side that can prove things and uses more logic than faith."

Prove how matter can be eternal. Prove how information is embedded in matter on it's own and by itself. Prove how non-life can become life spontaneously. Prove how the universe created itself by itself. Prove how everyone has some type of inhererent understanding of right and wrong without a universal standard, etc., etc.

You believe your stories and I'll believe mine.

I've done plenty of investigation and continue to question all the time. I am where I am whether anyone else understands it, appreciates it or is threatened by it. Not my problem.

I'm just glad that there are others who will read this post and get some perspectives and insights that they may not have seen or thought about before. In that sense this has been worth the time and effort.

I know who I am and I know whose I am and that is good enough for me. If someone else doesn't see it that way so be it. That is their situation, not mine. I only answer for myself.

Peace.
20 months ago: Huey, matter cannot be destroyed, it can only be changed into something that cannot be seen with the naked eye, its individual atoms, electrons, protons and all that stuff. Eternal, well I just don't know, can't seem to figure out how to exist in my present or any other form for that long and the one you believe you will exist in for eternity doesn't exist, shall I say "yet" just to be nice?

Information is embedded in matter simply by there being matter to start with, whether or not you can read/interpret that information is another topic. Please don't try to push that information into the same meaning as "intelligence", just not going to go there.

This won't prove how non-life became life, but they are working on it:
http://www.boston.com/news/science/artic...
There is also an article in Discover magazine, just can't remember which issue.

Inherent understanding of right and wrong. Why should I need to prove that? It's already been done. Look it up.

As for the universe creating its' self, I'll grant you that it is probably beyond human ability to prove it, but they are working on it. Doesn't mean I need to believe a fairy tale that some omnipotent being snapped his fingers and instantly the universe appeared out of nothing. Has a major flaw, where was this being before he snapped his fingers.......

Always good to learn and see other sides to every issue. Just a bit annoying for some to insist that they are right when they already admit that the only way another person can believe what they are saying is through faith.
20 months ago: I agree that it is good to look at all side of an issue.

I believe I am on the right track. If someone else does not, that's their issue not mine. Also I'm not demanding that anyone follow what I believe. They have to deal with their own fall out, not I.

If my confidence rattles people so be it.

"Doesn't mean I need to believe a fairy tale"

You already do. It's just a matter of what or who's tale you believe.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
19 months ago: I think the bigger issue is that people believe in God not because of creation but rather for what happens in death. Religion is the crutch that helps people rationalize the fact that they will eventually die and some of these people cannot stand to think it just ends
19 months ago: Since you admit that God is responsible for creation why can't you admit he also has a hand in re-creation?

Not what hapens in death. What happens after death.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
19 months ago: I never said God has a hand in creation...HE DOES NOT EXIST. PERIOD.
19 months ago: Based on what is self-evident, the burden of proof is on the non-believer.

After all it is WIDLEY accepted by the majority of people on this planet that this universe was created. There may not be a consensus on who or what that Creator is, but that still puts the burden of proof on the dissenters they see it that way or not.

In order to absolutely dismiss the possibility of infinite intelligence, one must believe that they themselves posses it.
19 months ago: Philosophically, the burden of proof is on the person making a claim, and is not related to the number of people making the same claim.

If the number of Islamists exceeds the number of Christians, this won't shift the burden of proof about the truth of the Koran.

"A lot of other people believe this" no matter how many people it is, doesn't shift the burden. In various times and places people have believed in all manner of contradictory and invented stories about how the universe came into being. No one had to "disprove" any of them in order to assert that the truth of them hadn't been convincingly demonstrated.

The burden of proof is on the person claiming that the universe was created in a particular way - whether the person says it was God, monkeys, snakes, or natural phenomena.
19 months ago: Stan, I agree. I just flipped that back to PH because he seems to believe that anything "science" has a consensus on is true without question. That's BS.

Today's "science" article is all too often tomorrow's toilet paper.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
19 months ago: Nope, I agree that much of science is questionable...What I said was that they have evidence of what they say. There is literally not a single piece of real, hard evidence that God exists.

Stan is 100% correct. It is on the believers in God to prove he exists
19 months ago: "There is literally not a single piece of real, hard evidence that God exists."

What about your own existence or the existence of this universe??

To say there absolutely is no possibility of a Creator's existence is arrogance in the highest order. To say it has not been sufficiently proven to you, or you just don't believe would be a more rational and honest statement.

Never mind.

I've committed myself to not spend a whole lot of time trying to prove or convince anyone of what should be self-evident.

We can just agree to disagree. Peace.
19 months ago: "What about your own existence or the existence of this universe??"

Neither proves anything. They exist, but just because we perceive that they do, does not verify the existence of a God or any god.

Those that believe in "God" or a god or any gods, will always be stuck with having to have "faith" that what they believe is actually reality. Those that don't need an all supreme being to quantify their own existence will be stuck believing in nature's ability to evolve into something and then something else if need be.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
19 months ago: What Six said...

The arrogance is believing blindly in a fictional book and claiming that because there is no evidence that it should just be self-evident.
19 months ago: You keep your delusion and I'll keep mine.
19 months ago: Also - do you have any links to any new rap music? I would appreciate it.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
19 months ago: Mainstream or underground? Political or non?
19 months ago: Underground. Either or. Can have social commentary but not necessarily political.

Anything you think is cool, just not heavy on profanity.

You can post it here or send it to me through the site e-mail.

Thanks much.
19 months ago: If it just ends, that's easy.
Gregoire
Gregoire
19 months ago: Here I am, proving Jesus is Lord.
Are you watching?

Still?

Just a little while longer...
19 months ago: Gregoire's doing it. Are you watching? Wait, wait, he's almost there....

: )
18 months ago: I just read that actual report a few days ago (not the newspaper piece).

It makes sense that Agnostics and Atheists are more knowledgeable about religion. I think it's those folks who have sought out answers in a different, more thorough way, than Catholics, for example. My family has mixed religions. Catholic and Lutheran. My grandmother is devout, but knows not why, only believes that IT is real.

As an Agnostic bordering Atheist, I've gone to many churches and read about many organized religions including Muslim, Catholic, Taoism, Lutheran, Mormon, Paganism, Foursquare, Buddhism, and probably a few others. The idea that the majority of religions believe that THEY are the ONLY way is a turn off.

What I've found is that religious folks tend to be super rigid and controlling, and by that I mean by their beliefs. It is more difficult to try talking to a devout believer about the ideas or concepts w/o being told that you are lost, sinning, wrong, must accept Jesus, etc., ahem, as seen above. The idea that because I've chosen not to choose makes me a bad, misguided person is ludicrous.

What I see w/religions are war and bloodshed, deceit, the back burner placement of women, the hypocrisy of values, and control. These are the opposite of what I'd think those w/spirit should invoke. For those who claim to be loving and kind in the name of the lord are often tasting judgment in its very name.
18 months ago: "What I've found is that religious folks tend to be super rigid and controlling, and by that I mean by their beliefs. It is more difficult to try talking to a devout believer about the ideas or concepts w/o being told that you are lost, sinning, wrong, must accept Jesus, etc., ahem, as seen above. The idea that because I've chosen not to choose makes me a bad, misguided person is ludicrous. "

The only way you will find God, and know the truth, is by the Holy Spirit, and reading the Manual, (Bible) There is only one truth.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
18 months ago: You fail to see the point time and time again. What makes your ridiculous religion more true than the next? Nothing. The fact that yours is relatively young compared to the others should lead you to the conclusion that yours is most wrong of all...but you are so completely and hopelessly brainwashed that you are lost to all reason.
18 months ago: There are many ways to the top of the mountain. The idea that your trail is better than the next is so arrogant.

The difference between us is that I am NOT telling you that you are wrong. I am NOT claiming to be the only one with the TRUTH. I am saying that for ME, it just doesn't work (Agnostic). I am not denying your god. But, YOU deny me my beliefs (offering ways that I can fix them like reading the 'manual'). I'm saying that I don't share the same concept of it. But you. You believe that you know MY answer, MY truth, and therefore ME, and of course all those others who don't think as you do.

THIS is what I believe:
Religion is for those afraid of going to hell. Spirituality is for those who have already been there and back.
18 months ago: I always thought Agnostics didn't believe - either way...

Seems your leaning in your position. No?

...THIS is what I believe:
Religion is for those afraid of going to hell...

That statement alone tells the world your holding a religious position.

and it ain't AGNOSTIC.
18 months ago: You guys are at this again???!!!

I thought the glue factory had the right to all the dead horses.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
18 months ago: I'm a Christian. I'm convinced I chose the right path, or God chose me, whichever way you want to look at it. I have a favorite fun book. It is "Job, A Comedy of Justice" by Robert L. Heinlein.

For anyone who has ever pondered the truth, or explored different religious beliefs, you will love this book. It's not science fiction, as you might think by the reputation of the author. It's not fantasy, exactly. And it's not for people who are offended by exploring possibilities that disagree with their own beliefs. But it is a really enjoyable book.

If you have an open mind.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
18 months ago: ...if only there were more of these mysterious open minded Christians around...
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
18 months ago: Sorry Bob. I meant Robert A. Heinlein.

I looked for a free online copy, but alas. I guess he still wants to be paid.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
18 months ago: "mysterious open minded Christians"

I'm not all about trying to convince anyone whether I'm right or they aren't. That's between them.

But, you interact with open minded Christians every day. They are open to the truth, and not mindless believers of everything they have been told by their parents or their church. They study to explain the things that they don't understand, or that just plain don't make sense. And they do this without losing Faith, because it is their Faith that makes them want to understand.
18 months ago: From my experience they are open to the truth as long as it fits within their idea of what the Bible says and they study and research to prove the Bible true, not to find the real truth and if they find that it does not prove the Bible's version, they reject it as not being complete or as misinterpreted or half a dozen other excuses for the data being wrong.

Their "Faith" makes them want to understand alright, understand how the Bible could be their God's book of "how to" and be so hard to understand that it requires an interpreter and years of study.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
18 months ago: Jesus said it wouldn't be easy, and few would pass down the narrow path. If it were all spelled out in black and white, with irrefutable proof, there would be no need for faith.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
18 months ago: Oh my...its like you don't get it. All that garbage about it being hard and that the select few will get it entirely is all part of the same sinister plot. Christianity and Catholicism were designed to control people, the under classes of society to be specific. It is all made up. And when the peasants start asking "Well this part doesn't make sense, why should I believe that" the unified response was "Its hard, it won't be right there in front of you...just believe what we tell you and it will be fine...now get back to work and pay your taxes"...

That tradition has passed down to today's world, where if someone who believes different or requests proof the unified response is "I can't prove anything I believe in, but that's ok because I have faith that its all true". Now this is fine, but just don't expect everyone to be so ignorant too and certainly don't expect people to shape their social behaviors based on a a book and made up fairy tale for which there is absolutely, positively zero proof.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
18 months ago: Oh my... it's like I totally do get it. You believe what you want to believe, and I'll believe what I want to believe. It's as simple as that.

My beliefs are no burden on me or you. I pay the same taxes as you. I work for what I have, same as you. It doesn't cost me a dime to believe that Jesus walked the Earth and was crucified to atone for my sins.

Now, I admit, there are those who attempt to control people by using God's name. I believe those people are in violation of the fifth Commandment, and according to the fifth Commandment, "the Lord will not acquit anyone who misuses his name." I believe that without the full consent of free will, any forced compliance will be for naught.

Likewise, there are those who attempt to control others using the mechanisms of public safety, health, patriotism, global awareness, duty, and fear.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
18 months ago: This is fine, but there are those who are not like you and try to govern other people based on their religious beliefs.

My point is that your moralistic approach does not matter in terms of social policy. For example, the fact that as a Christian you are opposed to abortion and/or gay marriage gives you absolutely no grounds to create government policy about them.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
18 months ago: Abortion should be limited for the same reason that any murder is illegal. Defense of the defenseless. The same reason that you don't go around killing the severely handicapped. As you have often stated, you don't need religion to tell you what is right and what is wrong.

Gay marriage, as long as it isn't encouraged or celebrated by the government or any government official...meh, we're doomed as a country anyway. Might as well get it over with.

Is that all you have, abortion and gay marriage?
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
18 months ago: Abortion is not your business. Comparing it to murder is comparing apples to oranges. Murder ends a life. 1st trimester abortion removes a parasitic cell from a body. There is no life in the 1st trimester, regardless of your religious views...scientifically speaking there is no life. Your religious views have zero authority in terms of governance.

Why does it matter if it is or is not celebrated. Letting people who love each other get married is not a Christian thing. Other religions celebrate marriage too. Get over yourself and stop trying to oppress people with your evil religion.

What are your (Christians) views on the death penalty???
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
18 months ago: Scientifically speaking, there is life during the first trimester. The definition of life proves it. " The quality that makes living animals and plants different from dead organisms and inorganic matter" Just because it is not cognizent or self aware at the time does not mean it is not alive. To abort a fetus kills life.

Other religions and non-religios customs practice polygamy and child weddings. Should they be allowed to do that, or should your social morals tell them they can't? Be sure to answer this question and please adress both sides.


Capitol punishment? Let the punishment fit the crime.

Your turn. How do you feel about euthanising humans in prolonged comas or in a vegetative state?
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
18 months ago: If a patient in a hospital has 0 brain activity the are pronounced dead. The same is true in 1st trimester. No brain activity...no life.

I love the hypocrisy of Chrisitians...Pro-Life and Pro-Death Penalty.

I am not pro death penalty, but simply because it costs HUGE HUGE HUGE HUGE amounts more than to carry out life in prison sentences.

I don't care what other customs do. My social morals have no impact on what these cultures do. (To my knowledge the only religion in the US that practiced Polygamy was Mormonism, and they stopped that practice ages ago.)

If a living person makes a conscience decision to end their life then their doctor should be allowed to do so. (Notice that this does not require them to, much the way that no church should be forced to perform gay marriages, but at the same time if they wish to they should be allowed to).
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
18 months ago: You tried to sidestep the question.

If someone in this country wants to practice child marriages or polygamy should they be allowed to? Why or why not?

We have people from every culture in the world living here.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
Content Removed by Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
18 months ago: YES. Assuming that they are not trying to create government legislation that forces everyone to believe as they do. The constitution allows for people to practice, in private, whatever religion they wish.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
18 months ago: Well, I'm not even talking about religious practices here. In many countries, men are allowed to contract a marriage with a girl as young as ten years old. Should that be allowed here in the U.S.? Or would it be different if it were a religious practice?

Many countries are accustomed to polygamous unions, with some men having twenty, thirty, fifty wives.

And you are saying that you are ok with polygamy and pedophilia as long as... "they are not trying to create government legislation that forces everyone to believe as they do. "

But isn't that what the gay community is trying to do, by forcing "alternative lifestyle education" into our schools, and demanding harsh penalties for those who speak out against them, trying to get every dissent qualified as "hate speech"?
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
18 months ago: Assuming it is legal in their countries then there is little we can do about it. Here in this country we have decided to no let religions rule our government policy...and hence those types of actions are forbidden here.

Gay's and lesbians want EQUAL rights...you know that whole "All men created equal" thing? Schools teach about straight relations...gay relations should be included in education.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
18 months ago: No, back the truck up.

You keep injecting religion into it. But we can roll with it along that vein.

You are saying we don't allow polygamy and pedophilia because some religions do allow it?

"....we have decided to no let religions rule our government policy...and hence those types of actions are forbidden here."...

So what happened to ..."The constitution allows for people to practice, in private, whatever religion they wish." ...?
18 months ago: Out of the mouth of Babes http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XejlEmxX... Could not say it any better.
18 months ago: Really Ed? You would put stock in what children say? Would you bet your fortune, your life on what they say? Would you bet your soul?

Children are a joy to behold, but I wouldn't put any "faith" in what they say in regards to religion, God, stocks or how to save a buck or two on bubble gum.

To be truthfull I stopped watching as soon as I saw that it was a video with children all decked out in their finest adult style clothing. You want me to watch and listen, don't link to a video that was full of actors doing a job, they'll say anything they were told to say.
18 months ago: For you Spanish speaking folk http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Inp9_mI1A...
Content Removed by Edward Lee
18 months ago: Six, Comment: Really Ed? You would put stock in what children say? Would you bet your fortune, your life on what they say? Would you bet your soul?
Children are a joy to behold, but I wouldn't put any "faith" in what they say in regards to religion, God, stocks or how to save a buck or two on bubble gum.

My Answer
Absolutely, since I know most of the word of God, from cover to cover, I can verify what they are saying is correct.

And others on this site could also concur like Huey and Truthbrary. The Word is a part of us, and the Holy Spirit testifies and ilummate the Word.

Why don't you check out what they are saying yourself, do some research, who knows God may speak to you.

I just though hearing the truth from young boys would be less intimidating.
18 months ago: Another self-fullfilling situation. You can verify what they say because you believe your Bible to be exactly what you say it is. Take away that one book and what do you have?

Are you so dense that my having stated that I have done all the things you say I should so that I will believe what you believe just goes right over your head? You can stop telling me to repeat past research, I've done it, in several different ways and nothing you can say will change that knowledge into something that it isn't.

Siting other believers who will concur with what you say is in the Bible will not make it any more of a man made book than it is.

Intimidating? Why would I be intimidated by you or young boys? Are you going to threaten me with something like Hell and Damnation?
18 months ago: Six, Jesus loves you and so do I.
18 months ago: Most Christians believe that life begins at conception, but at the very least, without a doubt when the heart begins to beat.

During pregnancy: "You can hear the foetal heartbeat on sonography with colour Doppler from the 9th week onwards. You can feel the foetal movement in the 18th - 19th week of pregnancy." http://www.indiaparenting.com/faqs/p...e...

So the question is "Why or how does the human fetus's heart start to beat?"

"The human heart begins to beat and pump blood through the embryo around day 22 of gestation. The electric stimulus that triggers the muscular portion of the heart, known as the myocardium, to contract is myogenic.

This means that the contractions arise spontaneously within the myocardium itself, and propagate from cell to cell. Input from the central nervous system can modify the heart rate (the frequency of heart beats), but it does not initiate beats.

Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
18 months ago: What most Christians believe is irrelevant to what the law is or should be. That is just your belief. For the rest of us your beliefs mean literally nothing.

So lets pretend that life begins with a heart beat...which you have stated is around 9 weeks. Are you opposed to abortion during the first 9 weeks?

Once again, the thing that Christians need to get through their brainwashed heads is that the rest of us and the Constitution do not care one bit about your beliefs. They are irrelevant in terms of governance. You are clearly and Constitutionally allowed to have them, but you are not under any circumstance allowed to request that those evil beliefs become law.
18 months ago: Personally I would not, it seems that you have no respect for your own life, did you make yourself?

Christians are not brainwashed, we are washed in the blood of the Jesus, who was killed by unbelievers and hypocrites.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
18 months ago: My parents made me, all by themselves...if you don't know how this works perhaps you should read a book.

Hypocrites? Jesus, God and Christians love everybody right? Unless you are pro-choice, gay, lesbian or transgender.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
18 months ago: Jesus loves the sinner, any sinner, everyone included. Hates the sin, though. Some scholars think that the apostle Paul may have had homosexual attributes, which is why he chose a life of chastity. His affliction was never disclosed but only alluded to as "the thorn in his flesh".
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
18 months ago: Its only a sin according to you and your beliefs. By my beliefs its not a sin...what makes you more right than me???? (Hint: Nothing)

This is why I hate Christians...they are evil, sinister hypocrites.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
18 months ago: How am I a hypocrite?
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
18 months ago: Your a Christian. By definition your a hypocrite.

You preach love and tolerance, then attempt to strip it away from people who don't share your beliefs.

You claim to be a patriot, yet ignore all parts of the Constitution that you disagree with.

You claim to love liberty...yet will only allow it to those who share your oppressive morals.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
18 months ago: Who said this>>>>?

"Here in this country we have decided to no let religions rule our government policy...and hence those types of actions (polygamy and pedophilia) are forbidden here."

You have tunnel vision. You are guilty of profiling. You are closed minded when it comes to Christians, and you are prejudiced against anyone who says they are a Christian, even before you have met them.

You have your preconceived ideas about Christians and you claim they are all cut from the same cloth.

You say you are open-minded and tolerant?

You, sir, are the hypocrite.
18 months ago: PH - "This is why I hate Christians...they are evil, sinister hypocrites. "

Folk who harbor hatred are killing themseleves. No good can come from it.

When individuals are motivated by hatred they internalize a bias-blindness that is so deep, they have literally lost all ability to reasonably consider the issues. Nothing matters but their hatred.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fK3FVK8hR...

"American History X" is a great movie that shows what hate can do to people.
18 months ago: Do you honestly believe what you are saying? Or are you just going against the Flo.

I personally want gays to enjoy equal rights in a free democracy, but if God does not condone the lifestyle, why would they want to have anything to do with Him, unless seeking change.

Out of the abundance the heart speaks. In other words what you say is what you are. I will say no more, should I hurt you feelings.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
18 months ago: I believe every word I say.

No you don't want gays to have equal rights. Again, people that don't share your religion or beliefs don't give a crap what you think God condones or does not condone.

Legal marriage does not require God or church (although there are churches that fight for gay rights). You can get married by a judge or other public servant.

You could never hurt my feelings...your Christian...I disregard literally 100% of what you think as complete hogwash...you are a brainwashed drone.
18 months ago: "...your Christian...I disregard literally 100% of what you think as complete hogwash"

Does that go for me too PH? I thought we had a better relationship than that.
18 months ago: Are you gay?
Gregoire
Gregoire
18 months ago: I am not gay...but my carnal promiscuous tendencies must just as surely go the cross (yes, I love my wife...) as anyone elses.
Just being a heterosexual has no blessing or merit in it...unless one learns to submit that appetite, also, to the Lord.
God made women look very good to a man, so good in fact, many men have mistaken them for God and worshiped them. I think only Jesus is more captivating, and there's been not a few times I have had to say..."Lord, I believe you look even better than THAT...so help me get my eyes and mind off that short skirt, there.
18 months ago: That question was for Horizon, as he seems to be quite an unhappy person. always referring to the rights of Gays.
18 months ago: Being an advocate for other people's rights is part of being an American, being able to support the rights of a group of people who are sexually attracted to members of their own sex is one of the more controversial patriotic duties we have. I think PH is just doing his duty, no matter what his personal sexual leanings may be. I haven't said much lately, been busy as all heck but I support and agree to a lot of what PH has said.

As a staunch Christian, you Ed and many others should be at the forefront of supporting the rights of all, gays and straights alike.

PH, not all of what Christians say is hogwash. If they leave the Bible out of it and just use their brains without trying to tie everything to some imaginary Deity and his supposed offspring, they might find better acceptance to some of their ideas.
18 months ago: This is what I wrote and stand by: I personally want gays to enjoy equal rights in a free democracy.
18 months ago: So you don't support outlawing gay marriage? Or better yet, you would vote to allow it in places where it is not already allowed.
18 months ago: I do not support Gays being married before God, and repeating Christian vows,
another thing why would they want to have a Christian funeral?
18 months ago: IF there is a God, everyone that gets married does it "before" Him since He is supposed to be everywhere, in fact, according to the mythology about "God", nothing happens that is not known to him so therefore everything is "before God". You don't get to pick and chose what your God observes, nor do you get to chose what He (if He existed) approves or disproves of.

Christian vows? What's different about them than any other marriage vows?

Why wouldn't a gay person want a Christian funeral? Why wouldn't a gay person be able to belive the same as you? Being gay doesn't take away their basic desires to be part of a group, to be wanted, to be loved. They have the same human feelings as you, the same needs. The only difference is they don't have sexual desires for the opposite sex, or they have them for both.

You wouldn't make a very good American with your prejudices that will cause you to support and vote for laws that discrimminate.
18 months ago: Forgot to add, see your comment above. I think you really need to consider what you said in the last to of your posts to this article, you contradict yourself.
18 months ago: Two, not to.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
18 months ago: Not a contradiction there. He said he wants gay people to enjoy equal rights in a free democracy. Since the government that stays out of your life ensures equal rights in a democracy, it has nothing to do with the church.
Christianity is not a democracy. We don't get to vote on what is Christian and what isn't.
18 months ago: Six, Christian vows? What's different about them than any other marriage vows?
Why wouldn't a gay person want a Christian funeral?

Answer: You have called God and Jesus all kinds of names. A Christian marriage and funeral are done before God, scriptures are read, what God expects of you, and you agree. A Christian funeral reflects your Christian life, and as a result your final destiny is stated.

Why on earth would you want anything to do with God?

As long as you have life in you God will forgive. When you are dead it's too late.

Ecclesiastes 9:4,5: Anyone who is among the living has hope; even a live dog is better off than a dead lion! For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten.

Isaiah 38:18: For the grave cannot praise you, death cannot sing your praise; those who go down to the pit cannot hope for your faithfulness.

Psalm 115:17: It is not the dead who praise the lord, those who go down to silence; it is we who extol the Lord.

Jamieson Fausset and Brown Commentary

Ecclesiastics 9:5: - know that they shall die--and may thereby be led "so to number their days, that they may apply their hearts to wisdom" (Ecc 7:1-4; Psa 90:12).

The dead know not anything--that is, so far as their bodily senses and worldly affairs are concerned (Job 14:21; Isa 63:16); also, they know no door of repentance open to them, such as is to all on earth.

neither . . reward--no advantage from their worldly labors (Ecc 2:18-22; 4:9).
Honor by Choice
Honor by Choice
Waco, TX
18 months ago: The ignorance of the Thiests is astounding at times. Especially the ones who disbelieve in Evolution. If Evolution was false, we would all be the same, all one race. We're different because of natural selection due to geographical isolation from prehistoric times. Generational-Genetic modification(Evolution), right in front of our face. All they have to do is look around. What a bunch of idiots, when the truth is right in front of their faces, and yet they still deny it. They(Theists) just have zero credibility.
18 months ago: We are all one race. Human.

If we were to take any two people from anywhere in the world, the basic genetic differences between these two people would typically be around 0.2 percent. We are all of the same "stock."

Genetic mutations DO NOT favor the existence or survival of any organism. However, adaptations and natural selection can and do.

I have also found invariably that folk who subscribe to Darwinian evolution as an unquestionable dogma are for the most part very narrow minded and racist. Not all, but many.
18 months ago: Technology has given us more confidence in what we can touch and manipulate. Our bodies are meat and real, we can define differences. But religion is about spirit and things we can not see, weigh and measure, things we can not machine and electrify.

People today think nothing exits if they can not physically manipulate it. But those same people go to church to sing hymns and pray to something they can not physically manipulate. This is a dichotomy, don't you see, a situation that denies one and denies the other at different times of the week.

Man is a spirit -- is unprovable to a man who grows, raises a family and dies, based on how well he gets along with our physical universe.

And yet religion exists and even expands in physical world. "Why", you ask, "Why do people continue to gather together in spirit when every day's life proves there is no such thing"?

Well, I've satisfied myself on this point. Your peace of mind is up to you. And you know the pathway I'm talking about.
Honor by Choice
Honor by Choice
Waco, TX
18 months ago: So, You admit to genetic mutations and natural selection being real. This is the manifestation of Evolution. Creationism wouldn't even exist, but for the discovery of the Aramaic and Hebrew scrolls that the Bible was translated from. Imagine something like that being submitted as fact if written today. Very entertaining mental picture that is. And how is religion expanding? Subscription to theology is on a rapid decline the world over, (US News, Rueters, April 4, '07- "Catholic/Protestant Church attendance down in Europe, U.S.) and I do believe it's due to the now easy access of the abundance of proven info that flies in the face of theology. The article spoke of interviews with young people who said they mostly questioned the dogma, and felt they had outgrown the concept of a superbeing. If you study something and apply simple proccess of elimination with verifyable facts, you sooner or later arrive at the realizaion that the evidence supporting the concept a Superbeing is just not believeable. This is all verifiable. The logical educated mind won't accept it.
I have to wonder about people who look at it, and still refuse(or say they refuse)to admit that there might be holes in their belief system. I have always been so grateful to have free will to research the truth, or at least the most probable answer to things scientific, and not been forced or coerced or even instructed to refer to the bible as a source of fact. What kind of dark ages would we live in if everybody just accepted the bible as fact? Couldn't do genetic reasearch, that's heresy. can't study Astronomy, might learn something that differs from the bible's teachings. The list is HUGE. It's no wonder you can't seem to find an astro-physicist that is also a theist. Imagine that. it's ok. It might take a hundred years, but eventually we will outgrow our beliefs in a fanciful mythic tale about a superbeing who came to keep us from dying "all the way". When we come to grips with our inherant fear of dying (the source of all mythical tales of superperson salvation) "religion as a concept will finally pass on into the mists of time, to be written about in stories we tell to our school kids about how we used to actually write laws pertaining to these beliefs, hundreds of years ago. Like it or not, religion is on it's way out, and just like global warming, you can't stop it.
18 months ago: You need to get out more. There are astrophysicists who are also theists. Do you homework before spouting off.

Also, is it possible for you make a comment without being intentionally condescending? Is that how you speak to everyone with a differing opinion? If so, that's pretty sad.

You can believe whatever fairly tale you want.

I've got good, thoroughly examined, and well thought our reasons to be right where I am. Do I have all the answers? No. But neither do you or anyone else.

If you tone were more civil and mature, I'd probably spend more time responding. But since it's not, I won't. I leave that for those who like to deal with this type of argumentative non-sense.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
18 months ago: Yep, Huey, and that would be me. I love it.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
18 months ago: HbC,

..."Creationism wouldn't even exist, but for the discovery of the Aramaic and Hebrew scrolls that the Bible was translated from."...

Have mercy, oh tunnel visioned one. I would say every almost every religion in the world has its version of creation, including the BigBangEvolution religion. You may quote me on that, sonny boy.

..."Subscription to theology is on a rapid decline the world over"...

Not a surprise there. Also not a surprise...the fact that Christians everywhere are being persecuted, mocked and scorned. No other religion is being attacked so forcefully and with as much malice. Except maybe scientology, and really, com'on. Islam is also getting a bad rap, but some within the Islamic faith are ruining it for the rest of them. But we Christians have been waiting for this time when the world hates us for no reason.

..."the concept a Superbeing is just not believeable"...

But yet you'll believe that all matter sprang into existence from nothing, and from that nothing, matter organized itself into living, self creating replicating beings.

..."Like it or not, religion is on it's way out,"...

Yes, you are absolutely right about that, and probably sooner than you think.

..."just like global warming, you can't stop it."...

Finally, something we can agree on. If I didn't know better, I would swear I was talking to Markbyrn.
Honor by Choice
Honor by Choice
Waco, TX
18 months ago: Hahahahahheeheehee....check out my post above, then read Baby Huey's reply, see what part he decided he might respond to..... It's a wonder he didn't just start talking about the weather... and he justifies it by admonishing that he dosen't have any answers.... well, Duh! (he even gripes about me sounding "condesending", but he's such an easy target! Ooh, it's just too good...) That's what I have been saying all along, you thiests don't have any answers, because your only source of info is a fictional, contradictive, written back when people new absolutely NOTHING about the natural world around them, and were extremely superstitious and naive due to a near total lack of scientific knowlege. I rest my case. Thanks, Huey. Tell Dewy and Louie I said hello.
Honor by Choice
Honor by Choice
Waco, TX
18 months ago: I can't help it. I'm still laughing.... Huey kills me.....says I can believe in fairy tales, and he's the theist.....lol, oh man this is good stuff.... we are rolling over here....
And to think, we were just gonna go to the movies tonight...
Huey, you're definately "the bomb".
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
18 months ago: Honor by Choice

How fitting your pseudonym. Honor IS a choice. I see you choose not to exercise it.

You ignored me the first go round, covering your ridiculous statements with ridicule of another, the first sign of a bully with nothing left to defend himself. So I'll give you another chance to rebut the rebuttal.

Your statements are the ones in quotations. They look like " ". Get it?

HbC,

..."Creationism wouldn't even exist, but for the discovery of the Aramaic and Hebrew scrolls that the Bible was translated from."...

Have mercy, oh tunnel visioned one. I would say every almost every religion in the world has its version of creation, including the BigBangEvolution religion. You may quote me on that, sonny boy.

..."Subscription to theology is on a rapid decline the world over"...

Not a surprise there. Also not a surprise...the fact that Christians everywhere are being persecuted, mocked and scorned. No other religion is being attacked so forcefully and with as much malice. Except maybe scientology, and really, com'on. Islam is also getting a bad rap, but some within the Islamic faith are ruining it for the rest of them. But we Christians have been waiting for this time when the world hates us for no reason.

..."the concept a Superbeing is just not believeable"...

But yet you'll believe that all matter sprang into existence from nothing, and from that nothing, matter organized itself into living, self creating replicating beings.

..."Like it or not, religion is on it's way out,"...

Yes, you are absolutely right about that, and probably sooner than you think.

..."just like global warming, you can't stop it."...

Finally, something we can agree on. If I didn't know better, I would swear I was talking to Markbyrn.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
18 months ago: "But we Christians have been waiting for this time when the world hates us for no reason."

Perhaps Christians are hated because of their incessant need to tell everyone else that they are wrong, going to hell etc. etc. Or perhaps its the incessant need to try and force everyone to live by their oppressive moralistic view. Or maybe its the blowing up of abortion clinics...the list goes on and on and on and on and on and on and on.
Honor by Choice
Honor by Choice
Waco, TX
18 months ago: Beyond this,(out of pity, really) your posts don't merit a reply
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
18 months ago: I figured as much. We'll just let your words stand as they are. Or rather just lay there, as they don't have a leg to stand on.
18 months ago: Honor by Choice, seems like you are now taking the heat, that was normally directed at me, call if you need reinforcements.
Honor by Choice
Honor by Choice
Waco, TX
18 months ago: No, this is fun. We're watching Mony Python and the Holy Grail, pausing to laugh at the idiots on here. Nice evening. Thanks, though. irregardless of what you may read that I wrote about anybody, I do respect you, for your accomplishments, your education and your compassion for others. I base whether I like someone on how they treat others, not their religious beliefs or what they look like. it obvious to me that you have compassion for your fellow man, and a man who chose Honor. Good job, Well done.

HBC
18 months ago: Good. You need to listen to Edward Lee. Outside of Jesus, he's probaly the best friend you have.
Content Removed by Huey Newton
18 months ago: Honor by Choice - Dishonorable to the bone.

Funny, you spoke about me so often because I obviously got under your skin.

Easy target. I don't think so. I just wouldn't play your game and you couldn't take that. So now you took the cowards way out just like I thought you would from the beginning.

I have disagreed with people here from time to time, but have never encountered one so disagreeable. Insecure and probably friendless. Has to be a pretty miserable existence.

Racist, prejudiced bigots have no place here anyway.

The neighborhood is better.
Content Removed by Edward Lee
18 months ago: Christians are hated not because of this carnal world, but in the spiritual world that only few can see, every time the name of Jesus is mentioned, Satan becomes very upset, knowing that the day when he and his demons will be thrown into the Lake of Fire, evil spirits influence humans that do not have the spirit of God, Christians who have a personal relationship with God and is full of the Holy Spirit, have the authority over Satan's army.

Listen to this, I posted it on youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKQrX2GNA...
http://rantrave.com/Rant/DEMONS.aspx

I teach Christians and Churches how to Evangelize, I represent the "Pocket Testament League, The ministry began in 1893 as the vision of a teenage girl named Helen Cadbury, daughter of the president of Cadbury Chocolates.

I now represent them in British Columbia, http://www.pocketpower.org/museum/1910-1...

Satan does not like me, I am his worst nightmare, a soul winner, but I know how to handle that little runt.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
18 months ago: People like you are the reason Christians are Hated. You are forceful, and have some delusion that you are somehow gifted in a way that lets you force your oppressive views upon others.

Christians that are not hated are the ones that have the stance of "Hey, this is what I believe, you can believe what you want". You are not this type of person...you are doing the deeds of a sinister organization that was created to control people.
Content Removed by Edward Lee
18 months ago: No one is forcing anything on anybody, it's a FREE choice. This is the first true democracy. You vote for Jesus or Satan, looks like you have already been to the voting machine.

Religious question...ask the non-believers?!?! why did you post a subject like this?
Who are you working for?
18 months ago: ED leave it be. These same people that claim that Judeo/Christian theology are forcing beliefs upon them fail to recognise that...

The North and South native American Indians believed well before the introduction of "Christianity" that there was a single "Almighty" spirit and that the entire world was "Created" by the "Great Spirit".

They will be hard pressed to own that little tid-bit since the native Americas were untouched for centuries before the advent of their hated religions.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
18 months ago: Ah, the return of the moron machine...

They did believe in a great spirit, most likely female. They did not however use that spirit to control anybody or fear people into believing the same way they do.

Ed, you are an idiot. Claiming it is a free choice between only Jesus and Satan is idiotic. What about those who choose Buddha? You are hateful, and if there is a hell I am certain that based on your own criteria, you will burn in it.
18 months ago: The "return"? Thanks for your insult.
So now your going SEXIST along with anti-RELIGIONIST? Did you not know that there is no male or female in the after life?

Why don't you get back to your thesis on IRAN in the New World Order? "How to control the world using religious hate"?
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
18 months ago: I'm not sexist at all. I was simply pointing out that most native American tribes worshiped the "Great Mother Earth".

I am anti-ORGANIZED religion, especially towards the most sinister, evil, manipulative of all: Christianity.

There is no afterlife...you die...the end.

I finished that long ago...I'd let you read it but I doubt you could understand most of the words that are longer than 3 letters.
18 months ago: Your are confused. Aren't you?

You need to go back a study what you think you know.

1) native Americans believed in a "Father Creator" above all. Then number 2.

2) native Americans thank "Mother Earth" for sustaining they daily lives

Not much into American Indian Theology are you?
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
18 months ago: I have studied it extensively actually.

It depends on what tribe you are talking about.
18 months ago: As with all "primitive" cultures, an explanation for their very existence was created by someone and passed down through the centuries and embellished upon by those that followed until a consensus was reached that was further passed down through the ages. Has nothing to do with the Christian Bible, the Christian God or anything of that type, other than similarity in basic ideas. Ideas that ANY group of people could formant within their minds, especially when a child asks a question that has no easy answer other than to make something up and a mother or father wishes to impress upon them something besides "I told you so".

Primitive in the sense that they didn't drive cars or get water from a tap, in other things they were far beyond modern man, some still are.
18 months ago: There are a lot of things that Christians did the wrong way, but that was man's way, the first nations Indians, are the ones that God is using now, as well as others.
18 months ago: It is very difficult to show the love of Jesus, when responding to people with a retarded intellect.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
18 months ago: retarded intellect? kind of like people who believe blindly in something that has absolutely positively zero proof?
18 months ago: Whatever, I will not respond to your repetitive childish comments.
You are making a spectacle of yourself, grow up. In the presence of hundreds of more mature folks.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
18 months ago: The spectacle and joke is on you. You claim to be so mature yet you hate people for no reason what so ever.
18 months ago: I am a lover not a fighter, but even Jesus rebuked the scoffers.

Mat 3:7 But seeing many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said to them, O generation of vipers, who has warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

MERLE WILLIAMS MINISTRIES, INC.

The ministry of Merle & Rose Williams began in the year of 1961. After travelling with other Native Ministering the Evangelistic Field, God called us into our own ministry, full time. We travelled all across the United States and Canada as Evangelists, ministering in Indian Country as well as in the cities and towns. Great meetings we held in many Indian Reservations, camp meetings, revivals, ect. With peoples lives turned around, great deliverances from drugs, alcohol, and suicides, plus many healings.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
18 months ago: I'll tell you what:

If you or TCG or anyone else here can prove with factual evidence (not from the bible or your pastor or youtube confessionals and poorly acted "exorcisms") that God exists I will apologize for all my statements and (if you desire) quit this site forever.

Any takers?
18 months ago: You see there is your problem. You need proof and can't believe or have faith.

It's not up to us to "Prove". Can you "Disprove"?

Not likely you have studied too many tribes as they all follow the same theology of an "Almighty Spirit" (Father) as number one. Play that one elsewhere.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
18 months ago: Typically Christian defense.

I don't have the problem. I don't believe on blind faith. You have no proof so your defense is to say "disprove it". The burden is on you, not me. I can disprove it.

God doesn't exist. There is absolutely, positively nothing in the entire world that can even remotely prove that God exists.

There I disproved him.
18 months ago: The burden is upon me to prove that God exists? Wow. What a heavy burden on a low-life in this world. You have now made your second mistake. or third, or fourth, or fifth, or sixth....

Your own question is faulting as it says...

God doesn't exist. There is absolutely, positively nothing in the entire world that can even remotely prove that God exists.

My answer is the fact that the world exists even with you. Your proof in fact that GOD exists.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
18 months ago: TCG has admitted defeat just like most Christians do...by saying that "I don't have to prove it because I cannot, so I will tell you to disprove it instead because that makes me feel better about my mindless blind faith in nothing"...

so does anybody else want to try

P.S. TCG...your attempts are spent, you are done.
18 months ago: Funny how you try to reverse course. I admit only one thing...

There is an Almighty Creator and it is not up to me to prove anything.

You made the original statement that needs to be proven.

I'm not spent. Although you seem to be shooting blanks (spent).

Please inform us of your scientific test tube facts and all of the acclaimed educators that have written papers that were peer reviewed that disprove the existance of GOD.

Where are your academia linkies from the kinkies?

No anti-proof?
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
18 months ago: I do not have to disprove that which cannot be proven...its like talking to a brick wall. You have no proof. You live your life on blind faith, a choice I have chosen to not take in lieu of living based on fact and reality.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
18 months ago: All that's really been said is
"Uh uh"
"Uh huh"
"Uh Uh"
"Uh huh"
"Uh Uh"
"Uh huh"

Admit it folks. Neither side can prove their stance to the other. Heck, most people can't even prove it to themselves.

Arguing about it is really giving the enemy the upper hand. Is this really what God wants? Did he try to convert Pharaoh? Did he try to convert Goliath? Did he even try to convert Pontius Pilate, Herod or Salome?

No, he did not.
18 months ago: Since we are on the subject and reading your above post.

First, I personally was not surprised by the fact that Atheists and Agnostics scored much higher than religious folks as most of the atheists and agnostics I know (myself included)

Spell it out.

What are you?

Atheist?

Agnostic?
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
18 months ago: Irrelevant...

But if you must know you will just have to figure it out for yourself (that thing in between your ears will help you if try to use it for more than a void fill)
18 months ago: No, it's very relevant. They ave two different meanings.

what is yours?
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
18 months ago: There is no God, no almighty creator, no Allah. They are just fairy tales to make the weak minded (you) feel better about the fact that you will die eventually.
18 months ago: Oh. I get it now. Your started your complaint and pointed to Christians and Catholics. Now you just include all Religions.

Hebrew, Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, (all) American Indians, etc...

So your unGodly? Fair enough. Stop trying to spread your anti-religion thoughts.

Is that not in fact the opposite of your claim?
18 months ago: Have you ever read The Bible? The Koran? Just curious because most atheists I know, including myself when I was one, have never read the Bible.
18 months ago: Welcome to the site! We are a rowdy bunch once in a while so bear with us, we really don't bite, much...
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18 months ago: I was raised atheist and agnostic. My mother never prayed, never talked about God and the only time I can remember being in church with her was at a wedding. The only time I heard God or Jesus mentioned by an adult, was when someone was swearing or telling a dirty joke. My mother believed something, or someone was sitting on her soldier watching over her.

As an adult after looking into every religion and Christian denomination possible, I found Jesus. Or, he found me...

I'm not at all surprised Catholics don't get it because so many of them are focused on outward works, or the religious aspects of God. Knowing who Jesus is is the most important factor of Christianity. Knowing that he is the spirit of God who can literally enter a persons heart if only they ask.

As a Christian I'm not so set in my ways and close minded as to be afraid to learn about other religions.
8 Years ago I got my first computer so I could learn more about the "religion" of Islam. What I've learned since then is bone chilling and eye opening.
18 months ago: A great Testimony, every Christian, who has a personal relationship with Jesus, will be on the same page, that is the proof, it's the same spirit. Thanks for sharing whatsHerName
18 months ago: Tell them what they are missing, peace, Joy, hope and much more.
18 months ago: In the final analysis we will not be the ones who determine what the Truth is.
18 months ago: In the mean time, sure would be nice if some people would cease trying. Maybe some believe it should be me, maybe they are right, but then I'm not trying to tell others what the truth is based on what I have read in a book that must be believed on faith and faith alone...

When we are all dead, we will all be dead.
18 months ago: It's not faith and faith alone. As far as when we are all dead we will all cease consciousness, that remains to be seen.

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