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Mark, Why Not A Resurrection?

Posted 23 months ago|55 comments|820 views
Last Supper
Written by
Most here will agree I have a simple mind.

In my simple mind, there is little doubt about Jesus of Nazareth's Resurrection after his crucifixion.

Actually, there is no doubt.

Jesus died on cross and was placed in a tomb. Those in charge at the time understood Jesus preached something about life after death. They could not have anything happen that could support such a notion. They did not want to imagine how difficult it would be to control the populace if some of this Jesus guy's followers or disciples took his body away and claimed he had arisen from the dead.

So, what do you think they did? They posted Roman guards at his tomb. They threatened these Roman guards within an inch of their lives if they failed to guard the tomb and keep this heathens from stealing Jesus' body. Right?

I mean these authorities bent over backwards to make sure Jesus body stayed put.

Well?

After a short time, he arose from the dead. People saw him. Mary and the other women saw and talked with him.

Disciples talked and walked with Jesus before they figured out it was him. They took some convincing, but they were convinced.

There is the rub. What convinces my simple mind that the Resurrection absolutely occurred was the Disciples' reaction. Remember when Jesus was lead before Pilate, EVERY ONE OF the Disciples cowered and ran away. I mean Peter denied even knowing Jesus.

When Jesus was placed on the cross, NOBODY was around. All the Disciples were hiding.

Then, there was this purported Resurrection. And what happened to the Disciples? Something happened that turned these dishonest cowards into brave souls willing and in some cases becoming martyrs.

That transformation of those around Jesus convinces me that Jesus did in fact rise from the dead and ascend into heaven. And he did it for one reason. To show us we have that same opportunity.

So, Mark and others, the purpose of this rave is for my own selfish reasons. I want to try to understand why you and others think I am out past the left field fence beyond the bleachers.

Please advise what convinces you otherwise.
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COMMENTS
Siempre Solo
Siempre Solo
Auburn, NY
23 months ago: What convinces them Red is the samething that convinces us. Choice. If you read some of my early rants you might remember me saying I grew up not believing in G-d. Like Amish said, the whole idea was to far fetched. What changed my mind? You might ask. Perspective. I received an epiphany moment during a particularly trying time of my life. after that point every flower in a sidewalk crack was a message from the creator of the universe to me. Today I relish science, nature, scripture, people, animals, rocks, the universe, everything because it all speaks to the wonders of my G-d and the bible? The Bible is Icing baby! It's gravy!
23 months ago: Right on Siempre. Right on.
23 months ago: My epiphany moment was realizing there is something called Grace.
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
23 months ago: ...Actually, there is no doubt...

If there was no doubt, you wouldn't be asking the question. Not only is there doubt but it didn't happen because a 72 hour old corpse can't resurrect itself and the resurrection story starting with the guards at the tomb is just that - a "story" that was written years after the fact. Jesus didn't appear then and he certainly doesn't appear now. Also, please read proof 15, Examine Jesus' resurrection at:

http://godisimaginary.com/i15.htm

And in that link is another good question. Why would a three-person god need to send one of his persons down to have humans kill him in order to make him (them?) happy?

God says to himself: 'Those evil humans down on earth. I hate what they are doing. All this sin...Since I am all-knowing I know exactly what the humans are doing and I understand exactly why they commit each sin. Since I created the humans in my own image and personally programmed human nature into their brains, I am the direct author of all of this sin. The instant I created them I knew exactly what would happen with every single human being right down to the nanosecond level for all eternity. If I didn't like how it was going to turn out, I could have simply changed them when I created them. And since I am perfect, I know exactly what I am doing. But ignore all that. I hate all these people doing exactly what I perfectly designed them to do and knew they would do from the moment I created them...

So here's what I am going to do. I will artificially inseminate a virgin. She will give birth to an incarnated version of me. The humans will eventually crucify and kill the incarnated me. That will, finally, make me happy. Yes, sending mself down and having the humans crucify me -- that will satisfy me. I feel much better now.'
23 months ago: I don't ask the question. I came right out several times and told everyone here...

I have split from the organized church while holding my faith. It is, has been and will be a struggle as my Dad holds a ''Reverend'' title. I argue all of the time about the ''Church'' doctrine. That would be my task. Keeping the faith while making people understand GOD is also in that rock you just stubbed your toe on.

So, what is more important? The rock you moved or the toe you stubbed?
23 months ago: Cypress:

Too bad churches are full of human beings. They screw it up every time I hear.
23 months ago: Mark.

That Trinity stuff was created by human beings.

You're close, but I understand God said: "All humans, each of whom I love, are all sinners. Every single one of them fall short, but I still love each and every one of them. No matter what humans do, I love them as a child. There is only one way to overcome their sinful nature, and that is to do what Jesus of Nazareth tried to teach them.

I have something else going on or some other purpose for them, but they have no clue and are incapable of understanding.

Jesus died and he, as an example, arose from the dead and ascended to Heaven. Jesus was sent down to you humans to show you the way.

All of you are not going to act right, therefore, all of you will not have eternal life.

It's called "free will". It's up to each one of you."

Now, back to me.

I admit the Bible was written by humans. I am not one of those who believe the Bible is G-d's own words and that the authors were taken over by devine intervention. The Bible has mistakes, but Matthew, Mark and Luke are more accurate depictions of Christ than John................
23 months ago: Mark.

Thank you for the interaction.
Altruist
Altruist
Eugene, OR
23 months ago: Red it is Interesting that you can deny the trinity thing as being created by people yet you go with folk tales that were written down long after the event happened.

The whole bible is nothing but a collection of tales that were collected during the council of Nicea 300 some years after Christ, and these power hungry religious leaders threw out everything they didn't like, like all of the Gnostic texts and anything that pertained with women, and they merged the Jewish faith in with the Christian teaching and then merged the whole lot with the Roman religions.
23 months ago: Al.

Yea, but I understand Matthew, Mark and Luke were written prior to 300 years after Christ.

Each book was written to differing audiences; therefore, some of the messages are "tweaked" a bit.

Matthew, Mark and Luke pretty much confirm each other. John is inconsistent with all 3.....but I don't want to make the Baptists mad at me.

To me, it all comes down to the Resurrection. Period. The miracles and tales in the Bible take a back seat to the Resurrection. The Resurrection is not a folk tale..... in my mind.

I agree the Bible was written by Human Beings and is therefore not perfect. But there is enough there to convince me the Resurrection happened.
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
23 months ago: ...I admit the Bible was written by humans...The Bible has mistakes...

Therein lies the problem because the Bible is the only source document for these miraculous stories and they were written years after the fantastical events took place. An omnipotent god shouldn't be making any 'mistakes' whatsoever, especially when said god is threatening people to eternally fry them if they fail to kowtow to his 'loving grace'.
23 months ago: Mark.

Yea, human beings being responsible for writing the Bible is a problem. I agree. There are glaring inconsistencies. We're human.

G-d hasn't made any mistakes.

Kowtow is the opposite of love. Period.

(Thanks for the comments.)
23 months ago: Oh, but that is where you might need to re-think it a bit.

Your stating that GOD is actually in the book. While the book is accepted as the ultimate word of the Almight by the church. You might want to look at the book as a map. I have plenty of maps with wrong streets. Somehow though. The map helps me get to the final destination. You need a good compass.
23 months ago: What Cypress said.

I never looked at it that way. That's fantastic.
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
23 months ago: Interesting analogy but of course falls apart at the seams when you realize that a map to an actual location is different than a map to an imaginary pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. Also, if the cartographer is suppose to be an omniscient and omnipotent 'god', than you should expect nothing less than 100% accraucy.

It's incredible how far religious partisans will rationalize their theoglogy and espouse one contradiction after another in order to hold on to their comforting fantasies.

Perhaps this video will help you - it demonstrates how religious people will rationally, logically and critically evaluate other religions but of course they refuse to apply that same rational logic to their own religion. Why is that?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVuw1wEua...
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
23 months ago: Yes, the Bible is certainly a clear cut account of what happened and how one should live their lives with absolutely no contradictions or anything that could even possibly be construed as wrong.
23 months ago: Perfect.

Your name with your comments has some irony.

Humans are not perfect, which necessarily means there will be contradictions in our lives.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
23 months ago: Right, BUT the Bible is the "word of God" and bla bla bla...like its ok to kill people who don't agree with you, and women are subservient to men and Shelfish is an abomination but its ok cuz we like that one but homosexuality is still an abomination cuz we don't and if we did we couldn't vote for close minded Republicans.

God loves everyone...unless of course you are Gay, Lesbian, Bi-sexual, Muslim or Pro-Choice...
23 months ago: Perfect.

The New Testament focuses on Jesus.

The Old Testament is prior to Jesus.

Their tone or "texture" differs.

In my simple mind, I figure G-d's previous message to us in the "OLD" Testmament was "Fire and Brimstone". Hell and Damnation....

At some point, G-d said, okay, let's try it this way this time. The "NEW" Testament. I'm going to try it one more time. Here's Jesus. He concentrates on loving one another, including Gay. Lesbian, Bi-Sexual, Muslims or Pro-Abortion, etc.

Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
23 months ago: First...Its "God" not "G-d"

Second. Maybe the greedy people involved in Christian religions decided that they were not getting enough money by preaching Fire and Brimstone so they changed it to get more people willing to listen to it.

And according to Evangelical Christians God hates gay's and lesbians. I said Pro-Choice...not Pro-Abortion
Siempre Solo
Siempre Solo
Auburn, NY
23 months ago: Here is something for all of you to ponder on. Do you believe in G-d because of the Bible or do you believe in the Bible because of G-d? For the unbelievers you can turn it around and ask: Do you disbelieve in G-d because of the Bible or do you disbelieve in the bible because of G-d?

Here is what I think: People believe what they want to believe based upon what needs they want fulfilled at the momment. The response to Hinduisims many gods was Budhisms no gods not even one. Today is no different. Christianity has a strasnglehold on religion eh? Well along come the naysaying unbelievers, hedonists, athiests etc. What is the point? No point! Its two sides to the same coin. Everybody's looking for something. So some find it in the Book that others didn't find what they were looking to not find! here is as sugestion: Stop looking and start doing.

Every act speaks more words than a million bibles could hold. Want to know what is in the Bible? The works of people just like you and I. Men and women of faith and unbelieversd too. Want to find a magic madalion to ward of evil? The Bible aint it! What makes it holy then? The same thing that makes it holey: Your faith or lack of faith. If you need a map or compass it means you are trying to get somewhere. Jesus sdaid the Kingdom of God is at hand. That means already here, at our disposal, available right now. Which means, I don't have to go anywhere. I don't need a map, a compass or a guide. The Bible is not meant to teach you. Remember the Ethiopian that Jesus disiple met along the way? He was reading the Bible and didn't learn a thing. So what makes us believe that the bible is a Holy book of instruction then? It is because we are confusing instruction with admonision. Instruction is something you give to someone who does not know. Admonision is something you tell to someone who does know.

The Bible is a book of admonision and warning. It shows you what works and doesn't work. How to apply faith and not to apply it. Read it and you can't say that you haven't been warned. Ignore it and you you can't say that you didn't have a reason not to rerad it. The Bible leaves all without an excuse. We have one life to live and an encyclopedia of generations of experience at our fingertips to see what works and doesn't if we choose wrong the Bible is there to say: Don't blame G-d because he done told us so!

Neat huh?
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
23 months ago: Its a work of fiction and foke lore...nothing more. Prove God exists without using the Bible as a reference and I will reconsider.
23 months ago: Awesome!

I'm on it.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
23 months ago: I look forward to it!
Siempre Solo
Siempre Solo
Auburn, NY
23 months ago: Have you ever looked at a sunset? Where the sky meets the eath and said, man that sure is perfect horizon!
23 months ago: Yeah, once. I figured out the Perfect Horizon cnahged the next day.
23 months ago: Everything around us should be sufficient to convince any rational person of the existence of an intelligent designer. Every time you look at a well done painting of nature in particular, you see an awesome man made creation that reflects what the creator of everything has already been created.

Everyone has their own deal. It's all stimulus and response.

Some folk just refuse to respond to the obvious because they want to live by their own rules. Just admit it and move on.

As far as the resurrection. Who would die for a lie that they know is a lie?

En mass the early disciples abandoned Jesus and abandoned His message. Their hope died with Jesus. Days later these same cowardly people were willing to suffer horrible deaths for what they KNEW to be the truth. The encountered the living Christ and that is what put them back on course to fulfilling what He told them to do.

There's plenty more, but that's enough evidence for me.

BTW - RSG - there is manuscript evidence for the NT that dates no more than 80 years after the fact, not 300.

I have to run now, but I'll chime in a little later.
23 months ago: Right on.
23 months ago: Huey:

As always, you and outabox say it best.
23 months ago: Thanks Red.

Also -

"God loves everyone...unless of course you are Gay, Lesbian, Bi-sexual, Muslim or Pro-Choice... " --

Word of man.


Acquaint yourself with John 3:16 - Word of God.

"For God so loved the WORLD, that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life."

That includes all the people listed in the post referenced above.

Peace.
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
23 months ago: Huey,

You're cherry picking the Christian Bible to make it more digestible but the reality is quite the opposite. Jesus also said, "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple."

The Christian Bible also states, "Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts...Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion....Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them." Romans 2

And of course honest and up front Christian groups like Westboro Baptist Church (Godhatesfags.com) recognize that Bible 'truth' and amplify it in public whereas the typical evangelical deceptively hides behind the 'love' of John 3:16 until they can get the sucker converted, and than indoctrinate him into being hateful homophobics and intolerant against all others that don't believe in the supremacy of their religion, to include their own family (mother, father,etc. just as Jesus said)
23 months ago: Westboro Baptist does not typify most Christians. They are actually a blight.

The Bible does not endorse homosexuality.

As to the hate being spoken of, look up the word used in its original language and that should bring some clarity.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
23 months ago: So according to you, a Gay Muslim man who is Pro-Choice is just fine? Get real, Christians are, by large (not on an individual basis) proponents of hate. Its how they get their customer base fired up, especially in the South. There are a lot of Christians that act and feel and believe in what Westboro is doing. The only clarity it brings is that organized religion is an oppressive assertion of power by a few strong willed people.
23 months ago: Perfect.

Dang tootin.

Jesus teaches that we are to love a gay muslim abortion proponent. Period.

If that gay muslim has a problem, it is his problem. It's noone else's problem.

I perceive that Jesus does require us to welcome a gay muslim abortion proponent with open arms though.

And you've never been to my southern church.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
23 months ago: Not sure which happy land pills you were taking but the Bible is pretty clear on homosexuality.

"abortion proponent"

I clearly said "Pro-Choice" please refrain from being ignorant on purpose.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
23 months ago: As for your church...I will come when you prove God exists.
23 months ago: "So according to you, a Gay Muslim man who is Pro-Choice is just fine? "

I didn't say that. That individual has some issues to deal with. By and large Muslims are pro-life and they frown upon homosexuality as a heinous sin.

That being said, I believe God is the ultimate Judge and we are ALL going to have to answer for Him. I am thankful that I have no worries about that.

I don't need to count on trying to be perfect in order to please Him either. He accepts me as I am even though I am a work in progress. I have confidence based solely on the Lord Jesus. I enjoy my life and I don't fear what happens after death.

That assurance and confidence is available to everyone, everywhere. All one has to do is believe and receive it.
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
23 months ago: Speaking of organized religion and oppressive assertion of power, see my new post on GOP Anti-Gay State Senator Ray Ashburn getting caught doing the DUI at a Gay Nightclub:

http://www.rantrave.com/Rant/Anti-Gay-Re...
Siempre Solo
Siempre Solo
Auburn, NY
23 months ago: Just an observation here guys, but people who show the most animosity towards others tend to be the most insecure in their beliefs. They often grew up around people of strong convictions in something but they themselves are not so sure and so to drown out the voices of doubt that echo in their cerebellums they tend to take it out on those that their peers supposedly have marked as worthy of derision. This can go on for generations creating a complete cycle of society that does what they do because that is what they have always done! Reason be dammed in such circles because it no longer is needed to justify action or intent. It is often the most vicious of cycles to break because any decenter are viewed as worthy of excommunication from their circle and any outsiders no matter how kind may seem as interlopers or even enemies out to destroy them. This type of cycle often continues to gain momentum and speed until it has reached a critical level and either implodes upon itself or explodes into its suroundings in which case society at large is left to pick up the pieces. Examples of this can be found in cults and religions but social clicks, cultures and even entire ethnic groups have been found at fault of such behavior. Intellectualism is no safe haven either. Less you think that it could be remember how bloody the french revolution was. It came in the cusp of reason being crowned the sole moral force and G-d and Royalty being declared dead! Just a thought folks!
23 months ago: More than 1 thought. I had to repeatedly read it.
23 months ago: "Just an observation here guys, but people who show the most animosity towards others tend to be the most insecure in their beliefs. "

Tru dat.
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
23 months ago: and conversely, those who can't rationally defend the validity of their beliefs resort to using Ad hominem (e.g. Atheists have a chip on their shoulder) and circular logic (e.g. The Bible is God's word because the Bible says so.) How else could one defend an imaginary deity that's invisible and has no measurable effect on it's adherents compared to adherents who believe in some other deity or no deity at all.
23 months ago: Not all atheists have a chip. I never stated that and I don't know why that has come up again.

However, many don't just have a chi[p, they have a boulder. That goes for folk with other belief systems as well.

As far as circular logic, the fact is the Bible is comprised of 66 books written over a time period of about 1500 years by over 40 authors. It's not one book.

As far as measurable effects, I know many people whose lives have been saved from disaster due to their faith in what others for some reason seem to live only to ridicule.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
23 months ago: Here is some circular logic for you. Lets take the following two conversations from a Christian logic position:

Mr. Scientist/Atheist: The big bang and evolution is how we got here.
Mr. Christian: Prove it.
Mr. Scientist/Atheist: Well I can't provide hard evidence because we don't have the technology yet.
Mr Christian: Its not possibly true then because you can't prove it so therefore God exists and he created us and everything we see in the world.

Conversation 2:
Mr. Christian: God is real.
Mr. Atheist: Prove it.
Mr. Christian: I don't have to prove it, you disprove he exists. He exists because I said so.


As you can see...this makes perfect sense.
23 months ago: God does not exist because anyone says so. Even if when we choose not to believe that changes nothing.

The big bang will never be proven because if in fact the creation of the universe happened that way, there are no witnesses. Whenever you deal with the origin of everything you are dealing with theory, faith and belief.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
23 months ago: Actually the truth is that there is no such thing as God...it is a made up way for people to assert power over others. If you choose to believe in an archaic "belief" structure that was only created to control the under-class of society then that is your choice.
23 months ago: Correct.

And it's your free choice to deny the existence of a self-evident, loving and benevolent Creator. I don't know why one would want to do that, but it's an option.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
23 months ago: First conversation flipped:

Mr. Christian: God caused the creation of the Universe.
Mr. Atheist (we won't use Scientist, due to the fact that the two are not synonymous): Prove it
Mr. Christian: All I have is my faith in God's word to prove it.
Mr. Atheist: Well, all I have is my faith in some other men's words to prove it, so I must be right. Since you can't prove God exists, why should I have to prove anything? You are an idiot.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
23 months ago: Yep, I'm the idiot that doesn't believe in an invisible, non existent, all knowing, controlling entity that was made up to oppress the lower classes of society and control them using fear.
Siempre Solo
Siempre Solo
Auburn, NY
23 months ago: Okay smarty pants, it was a runon thought!
23 months ago: Don't get me wrong.
I can dig it.
Siempre Solo
Siempre Solo
Auburn, NY
23 months ago: Just don't dig it to deep, cause you might burry it where no one can find it!
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
23 months ago: God told me not to worry about converting all the non-believers. He told me to spread the good news, and let Him take care of the rest.
23 months ago: Like I told Huey.

He and you say it best.

You're right on outabox.
23 months ago: Well said.

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