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Its about time!!!

Posted 38 months ago|29 comments|625 views

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Palestine , Israel , Arab Israeli Conflict , UN , Politics

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Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL

Richard Falk is perhaps the most inteligent person I have ever heard of. He is, and this may be hard to believe, CRITICIZING Israel and I say it is about time. Israel is a bully and thinks that they have the right to force people who have lived on those lands for ages out because the British said it was ok and because more recently the United States rams its head up Israel's rear-end. All these diplomats talk about wanting peace between the Arab states and Israel, however refuse to see that it is in fact Israel that is causing the problems. They try to blame insurgency but in reality Israel has one of the most sophisticated armed forces in the world competing against developing nations. Thankfully there is Richard Falk to speak up for the the Palestinians and not just "fall in line" with the Israeli loving world.

Israel has a serious Napoleon complex. It is time for the United States to end its incessant need to worship Israel and step up to the plate to see to it that Israel is punished severely for the myriad of insidious war-crimes that it has committed over the past 61 years.

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Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL

38 months ago: Thank you for the history lesson, however I am reffering to the specific group of Jews who live in Israel today and seem to think that because Muslims have the rest of the Middle East that its ok to force them out of an area where they also lived. I am referring to the Israel that cannot and will not allow for any sort of actual peace options to occur. Just because they needed a place to go does not mean they have to right to force others to leave.

And just a side note: White people had Europe but that didn't stop the genocide of Tainos on Hispanola, Inca's in Chile and Native Americans in North America...

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Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL

38 months ago: I would agree that Israel is necessary, however I would also argue that Israel, being as powerful and wealthy as it is should be leading the effort to reach peace with the Palestinian people who were also deprived of their homes by the creation of Israel. I understand that there were issues that led to the necessary creation of a Jewish homeland, but it was done with such ignorance of the difficulty it would cause to create the homeland in an area that was occupied by Muslims that it was bound to cause a massive conflict (which it has over the past 61 years). Muslims and Jews historically do not "play nice" and it is now time for a peaceful solution to be reached, whether that be a two state solution or some other type of action to insure the stability of the region.

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Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL

38 months ago: I didn't say that they are the bad guys, you have to have "two to tango". I am saying that the Israeli's disinterest in resolving this conflict is a problem that should be a priority.

It is also unfair and unjust to blame Muslim people for the entire problem. This has become an unfortunate trend in the world, and gives Muslim people a bad name which is not disheartening.

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Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL

38 months ago: Muslims do not see the west as "The Great Satan"...Radical Islamic Groups do! Surely you can distinguish between peaceful Muslims and Radical Islamic groups, much like there is a difference between Christians and Radical Christian groups that bomb abortion clinics and send their kids to Jesus Camp. Not seeing the difference between peaceful groups and violent groups is a form of bigotry as well (more recently this has been targeted at Muslims rather than Radical Islamist groups...even George Bush stated the difference in his speech following the attacks on September 11th.)

Israel needs to transcend the troubles with the Radical groups and try to make peace with the true Muslims who are peaceful. FURTHER: The Muslim people need to work to have their voice heard over the voices of the Radical Islamists. Only then can peace be established in the region.

P.S. My name is Greg

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Colorado
Westcliffe, CO

38 months ago: I have fallowed this string today and have thought the comments on both sides are engaging. As a history major I agree with what Siempre Solo has stated, it very sound history, on the other hand, if you go farther back in history of the middle east, at least using the Bible as historical text, the Jewish people have taken the "holy land" from residents of the area many times. The justification the Bible gives us is that the lord promised it to them. So once again, who owns it? At some point compromises have to be made because the issue becomes to complex for simple topical history to sort out. I agree with Perfect Horizon that Israel as been been pushy and used preemptive strikes in the name of defense, but it could also be argued that it was their only chance of survival. The Palestinians have a historical claim to areas that Israel now controls, areas the the Jews never conquered during their ancient history, so ancient historical claims for both sides are out of the question. American foreign policy needs to stop propping up both sides of the conflict for starters and use trade and diplomacy for a change. These two sides need to sort out their issues without the American government whispering in both of their ears. This will not solve the issues that have been created, but it minimizes the chance of additional future issues that could be created.

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Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL

38 months ago: @Siempre Solo: I have many friends here at college that are Muslim and have talked to them all today and none of them have ever been taught in their lives, nor have they heard of non-fundamentalist Muslims teaching that the west is the Great Satan, so I am not sure that this is necessarily true in either direction, however, much like all religions there are fundamentalist and radical groups that teach their religion in a way that can get those who will listen to believe whatever it is that the leader of said group wants. Examples that come to mind of people who try to indoctrinate followers to their cause are the radical Islamist bin Laden and the radical Christian Becky Fisher. The similarities are shocking when you look at these two, especially in the way that the preach the gospel of their religion to breed hate and intolerance in their followers. This being the case, there is always going to be trouble around the world with radical groups doing radical things, however I do not think that this is key to establishing peace between Israel and its Arab neighbors.

I do however agree that it will take more than just Israel backing down, it needs to be a joint effort between all parties involved. My point is that Israel needs to stop being the aggressor in some of these situations in order to facilitate a process by which both sides can come together and make the necessary concessions to lead to peace.

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Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL

38 months ago: @Colorado: I agree with most of your post, just a few things I would argue. First, I was not aware that the Bible was decisive in political disputes over territorial claims? Secondly the idea that Israel needed to be the aggressor in these situations is a fallacy. They are so far and beyond all the neighboring countries militarily that they could easily DEFEND themselves against any attacks, however they choose to use preemptive attacks and this is not something that should be tolerated by the International Community. Also, Historically speaking, and it was an oversight on my part initially, is that the British have a lot to own up to in this conflict. They didn't want the Jews during the Holocaust so they said "You can have this nice place over by Jerusalem" and dropped them their and basically said "see ya later". After the Jews arrived in 1948 they were almost immediately at war with the Arab nations and nobody came to their aid. So in that respect the conflict started because the British chose not to respond to a situation they created and the blame cannot be placed entirely on the Israelis and Palestinians, however the solution may need to come from them and them alone at this point in time.

Also: Welcome, I am glad I convinced you to join this site good sir...now you have something else to do while you watch the shop in them mornings :)

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Colorado
Westcliffe, CO

38 months ago: Well put, your right, the middle east as a whole has problems much like the Balkans because the British refused to help Jews. When the British left the middle east they drew boundaries that had to do with physical borders and not cultural, that is the main reason the fighting is so extreme rather then small border disputes. Your also right in the fact that the sides need to work out issues themselves.

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Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL

38 months ago: I am not sure how much of an advanced warning Israel has given in all of its strikes but that is not really relevant here. The point is that Israel has taken an initiative to attack before they were attacked. Imminent threat, to me, is not justification for a preemptive strike. Is it fair that the United States denies information to its people to make all Muslims look bad? Preemptively striking targets with a far superior military is not going to stop insurgency. Israel has a right to defend itself against attacks, no doubt about it, however they should not demonize all their Arab neighbors by not making a distinction between the general population of Palestinians that just want somewhere to live and the few who carry out attacks against Israeli people.

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Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL

38 months ago: 1. I never said that the Muslim nations cared about Israel. Why should they be obligated to help the Jews? They were forced out of their homes to make room for people that the British needed to dump off somewhere to get them out of the way. I do not care what the Bible says about the “Promise Land”…the Bible is not and never has been a legal document. What if I had some book that was the core of whatever my religion was and it said that your house was my “Promise Land”…would you be nice and happy to help me after I take your house from you? Israel is a destabilizing factor in the Middle-East and has been since 1948. The individual Jews that live there are not at fault, I have never said they were. But at some point peace needs to be established, and that requires Israel to either give up some of the land back to the Palestinians or produce some other agreeable peace offering. Israel is in the power position and they are the ones that will have to make effort to gain peace, simple power politics, those in power have to make offers that the other party can’t resist and Israel is in this position.

2. Perhaps because they know that they would be exiled from the western world and with that would also mean they are exiled from the billions upon billions of dollars in aid they receive from the west.

3. Seriously? Israel has been 1st or 2nd in terms of aid from the United States since 1949 and almost always 1st per capita, not to mention countless war-planes, weaponry, missiles and other military equipment. In 2007 the United States sent $2.5 billion in aid to Israel, out of the 20 billion dollar budget for aid…that seems like more than “barely a cent”.

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Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL

38 months ago: 4. What vital information? The fact that the government of Israel discriminates against Muslims every day? The fact that aid to Palestinians from the United States is roughly 1/20th what it is to Israel? Israel in many ways is a bad guy as a country, their politics have been bullheaded and ill-thought out considering they are surrounded by Arab nations whom with Jews historically have poor relations with. Perhaps Israel should try to be a bit more humble with their discourse in the future.

5. Israeli Genocide? I am still not sure you are capable of distinguishing between radical groups and typical Muslims. The general populations of Arab nations do not want this genocide you speak of. Just because the leader of a country says something does not mean that it reflects the viewpoint of the entire population. Do you agree with everything Barack Obama says? Do you agree with everything George Bush said, I certainly hope not. Israel clearly has the right to defend itself when attacked; my point is that they need to make a more concerted effort to reach out to their Arab neighbors to reach a peace agreement. They have done this with Syria, much to the chagrin of the United States, who told Israel that they should not reach out to Syria for peace but eventually they did so using Turkey as a mediator, the results of which are still being discussed, however it is a key example of Israel reaching out and the results could be a great first step.

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Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL

38 months ago: A few things, I have said peace is necessary. Peace between two groups, should that be achieved both groups would be free from aggression from each other, so your idea that I think that only the Muslim people should have peace is absurd. What I have said is that the Israeli government should be making more efforts than they have in the past to ensure a peaceful resolution.

You claim that I am being unfair when you are doing the same exact thing by constantly damning all Muslims and making the declaration that Muslim people want to wipe Jews off the face of the earth. I have spoken with several Muslims over the past several days and all have confirmed that as a people they have no problem with Jews. There are groups of Muslim people that practice radical fundamentalist Islam that have claimed that Jews are evil. Much like there are groups of radical fundamentalists in every religion...it is a very specific sect and you seem to think its okay to group all these people together.

I have never said "Jews" are the bad guys, I have said that the Israeli government is bullish.

A few questions: Did you have a comment about the aid situation? Why do you continuously group every Muslim together? Can you explain why you seem to think that every Muslim person on the planet wants to carry out "Hitler's genocide"?

PS: In the future if you could avoid being condescending it would aid in having fruitful debate ("Big guns steal land"...I am not Tarzan).

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Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL

38 months ago: I understand the concept of history and the middle eastern people. I agree with you that as a people Jews are not the bad guys, much like as a people Muslims are not bad, or Americans as a people are not bad guys. What I am saying is that the Israeli Government, just like the government of the United States and Iran and groups like Hamas and the Taliban have all acted bullheaded and have made bad decisions. The point of my original post is that I think its unfair that the Western world blames only the Muslim groups and never ever dares to say that Israel's government has made bad decisions as well.

I would still like to know what your thoughts are on the questions I posed in the previous comment if you could.

I would also like to say that this has been a great debate to date and I enjoy reading your posts and comments. Thank you :)

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