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How is Jesus exactly related to his Father?

Posted 9 months ago|135 comments|1,687 views
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I recently read a comment from a fellow ranter who expressed confusion as to the nature of Jesus. Was Jesus God or was his Father God? This confusion has plagued Christians as long as the Catholic Church has held on to the belief of the Trinity. What some people might not know is that this teaching did not originate in the early church. The early churches view ofJesus relation to his Father was different than that of today.

Jesus claimed to be one with his Father. In those days a message from someone's son was as good as if it had come from his father! In that sense they were one. I don't believe he thought that he was God in the flesh. Nor do I think his disciples thought that either. That concept is Roman in origin where the idea of gods breeding with humans was common.

In the epistle of 1John the disciple begins the letter by referring to Jesus as the Word of God this reference is very descriptive of Jesus relationship with his Father if you analyze it. Bellow is a brief description of what I've garnered from it.

1. Much like a persons word is as trustworthy as the person who spoke it so is Jesus as his Father.

2. Without ones own word little can be known about ones own self to others, likewise Jesus reveals His Father to us.

3. One can exist without ones own word and likewise ones own word can live on long after ones own self is gone. In a similar way The Father and the Son are independent of each other.

4. Ones own word is intangibly inseparable from ones own self, in the sense that one cannot be known apart from owns own word. In like manner Jesus and his Father are inseparable.

5. A person chooses when to speak, likewise God the Father sends Jesus at his own choosing.

6. A person does not create words like he creates other works. A persons words are an outward expression of that persons inner most thinking and so Jesus was not created like the Father Created other creatures instead he proceeded forth from his Father as the outward expression of his Fathers inner most thoughts.

Follow this line of thinking on you will see how Jesus can be of divine origin and still not be his father. You can also begin to understand how this view of Jesus prevents the Christian from having two gods and Christianity to be monotheistic.
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9 months ago: "I don't believe he thought that he was God in the flesh. Nor do I think his disciples thought that either. "

Okay. Then you don't believe the testimony of the Scriptures. That's your prerogative.

Titus 2:13, John 1:1, Colossians 1:16, John 8:58, and more than I care to list. You need to do your homework.

Tell you what though, The Pharisees sure thought Jesus was claiming to be God. That was one of the major reasons that they had Him condemned.

Have a gas.
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2 months ago: Exactly Huey...

"It has been a contention from other faiths that Christianity is polytheistic, which it is not. Muslims reject the teaching of many gods, or that there are 3 Gods in one. One can see plainly how they have come to this understanding when one observes the double talk on this issue. If the Father is not the Son (Jesus), and the Son is not the Holy Spirit and so on... you have 3 separate individuals in one God. One could argue and say that they are just 3 "persons" but that would be a matter of semantics.

"For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace." (Isaiah 9:6)
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9 months ago: Geeze! You seem upset, almost insulted. Do you perhaps have guns and armament amassed in your cellar in readyment for that great and fearful day of Armageddon?

I'll tell you what. I will point out your error's one by one. Okay?

1) In the King James Bible Titus2:13 reads as follows: "Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;" Did you catch that last part? It reads, "of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ". Who is coming with the great God? The Bible answers that question, "our Saviour Jesus Christ". What, did you not notice the word, "and"? Two distinct persons are mentioned. Trying to use ,"and" to say that Jesus is the Great God would be to say that every time "and" is used that the words joined by it are meant to be interpreted as one object or person and not the accompaniment of the two, such as peanut butter and jelly.

2) I love the verse found in John 1:1 so much that I use its twin found in 1 John 1:1 as the base for my explanation of Jesus relationship to his Father. Reread my analysis of Jesus being referred to as, "the word". It occupies the majority of my essay. But before you do that compare John1:1 to 1 John 1:1 I would like you to see how the disciple elaborates on what was written in John 1:1 with what he writes in 1 John 1:1. Here are the two verses.

John 1:1 reads as follows: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God

1 John 1:1-3 reads as follows: That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;) That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

Notice how in both verses Jesus is referred to as the Word but in 1 John it expounds what type of word he is, "the word of life". Notice how the disciple goes on to say that the word of life to whom they bare witness was with the Father. Notice how the disciple beseeches his listeners to fellowship with them and those whom they fellowship with, that is the Father and his son. If you were just to read John 1:1 I might understand your confusion on the matter but as you told me to do you should take your own advice, " You need to do your homework."

3) Before reading Colossians 1:16 you should read the rest of that chapter so as to take its meaning in proper context. Take for example verse 3 of Colossians 1 that reads, "We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you" clearly saying that Jesus is not his own Father. But continue on and you will also see in verses 12 and 13 that the disciple gives thanks to the Father for allowing them to be partakers of his son's kingdom. As it is written, "Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:" Notice that verse 15 calls Jesus, "the image of the invisible God" and "the firstborn of every creature:" Thus leading up to the verse you mentioned clearly indicating Jesus as the author of life. If Jesus is God's word and God speaks life into existence then Jesus being God's word, his image it would clearly make sense that he is their maker. Still it doesn't call Jesus the Father.

4) Finally John 8:58 states, "Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am" This makes perfect sense since he holds such a unique relationship with his Father. Jesus being the Word of Life indicates he is the active force that created the universe that proceeded from the
7 months ago: Kept up the good work but remember, those that oppose your views will never keep things in context. Scripture hopping is their fovorite tool to prove their point no matter what the scripture actually says.

I'm a bit late joining in so don't fret a reponse.
7 months ago: As far as scripture hopping, you will have to throw out the entire Gospel Of John or conclude that it was not inspired in order to deny the revelation that Jesus is God.

That being said, I respect your honest inquiry. You probably knew that already though.
9 months ago: that proceeded from the Fathers mouth, his word. So let me ask you. Are you your word or is your word an outward expression of your inner thoughts? Of course Jesus was around as long as God has spoken. He is his word!
9 months ago: Not upset or insulted at all. Just surprised at you lack of sound biblical scholarship and exegesis. Really makes no nevermind to me, it's your walk.

I never said Jesus stated or implied that Jesus is His own Father either.

Isaiah 44:24 clearly states that God was alone when He created the universe. That He did it by Himself. At the same time Colossians clearly demonstrates Jesus as the Creator and sustainer of all things.

There are not two Alphas and Omegas, nor are there two Firsts and Lasts.

But like I said, it's not worth fussin' over. That's just what the world wants and I'll not get sucked into that.

You believe it like you want and I'll stick with what is clearly written. Peace.
9 months ago: Saying you are correct after being proven otherwise does not change the fact that you're misunderstanding what you have read. I went over every text you quoted and all they proved was that Jesus and his Father are two distinct persons. I also showed you how the scripture has Jesus as the primary operative force behind the creation of God's universe. You blaming "The World" as wanting a squabble is just divisiveness and laziness on your part. You say I'm wrong, can't prove it, insist I'm wrong, blame some random people and then run. Does that about some it up? If you are right then prove it? I did! Now prove me wrong!
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9 months ago: Your pot stirring and name calling are not going to work.

Also you haven't proven a thing other than that you don't know how to exegete scripture.

God created the universe alone. Isaiah 44:24. Jesus is from eternity past as the Word. John 1:1. Jesus is designated the Creator in John 1:3 and Colossians 1:16-18 just to name two references. Jesus is not His Father but Jesus is God. They are distinct but they are of the same substance. Deity.

You can spin it however you want, you can believe whatever you want, but the Scripture says what it says.

I liked you better when you had the other "Dwayne" face.

Maybe TB, Box or Edward will play with you. It's dinner time and I'm goin' home now.
9 months ago: No insults, just facts. Are you your word? No, right? Does your word come from you? Yes, right? Did you create your word? No, right? Your word is your direct expression though. Yes, right? Jesus is not God. Only the Father is God. Jesus is God's Word! He was not created. He proceeds from God. He is God's direct expression. That is what the Bible teaches. Your trinity concept is of pagan Roman origin. Enjoy your dinner and I don't care which Dwayne or Siempre Solo you like better because much like Jesus I still like you the same despite you not because of you!
9 months ago: Thanks.

Question: In your mind how do you reconcile these scriptures -

I have had Jehovah's Witnesses dance around them before. Now it's your turn.

"Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, "I, the LORD, am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens by Myself And spreading out the earth all ALONE."

"Through Him (JESUS) all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made."

Also John 1:1 clearly says the Word was God and the Word being God has no beginning.

"This is what the LORD says—
Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty:
I am the first and I am the last;
apart from me there is no God. "

"Before Me there was no God formed and there will be none after Me"

The Word was and is God.

I'm settled on the issue, just as you are.

The deity of Christ is clearly taught throughout the entire NT. If some folks want to attribute it to paganism that's their issue not mine. Doesn't change it from being the revealed truth.

I would just like to examine your thought process so that I can refute it if and when it comes from another source.

Also - Thanks for still liking me. I like you too even though your sometimes a nudge!
9 months ago: As I've already enumerated in this essay. The relationship of Jesus to his father can be understood by analyzing the relationship of ones own word to ones own self! It is quite simple really that is why the Bible uses that analogy!

You keep thinking of Jesus as an entity that is either created or not created (in other words Human or God) But the Bible clearly teaches that he proceeds forth from God as the active force of Life.

Therefore all creative powers are attributed to him but consider where Jesus proceeds from? His father! Jesus is the voice of his father. Much like your pen name is your voice here on RantRave but clearly not you! Your voice has existed as long as you yet it is you who bring it forth. Therefore you are its source! Your voice exists for you. It is a part of you!

Think of it like this: The voice, the will of God was placed in the body of a man and that man is called Jesus!
9 months ago: Interesting. The reason why all creative powers are attributed to Him because he is the Creator. Period.

"You keep thinking of Jesus as an entity that is either created or not created (in other words Human or God)"

Incorrect assessment. Jesus is not the Father but he is one with Him. He is of the same exact nature and substance. He is God.

When He came to earth He was fully God and fully human. He laid aside deity temporarily and lived through his humanity (Philippians 2:6-7).

Also, you have not yet reconciled the previous verses.

How can Jesus be self-existent (John 1:1, John 8:58; Ego eimi), be the Creator (John 1:3) and sustainer of of all things (Colossians 1:16-17) and although distinct in personality from the Father, not be God?

If you want to dance around those verses again, I have more.

This is turning into a pretty congenial discussion and now it's kind of fun. I also have a little free time on my hands today.
9 months ago: It's nice to know you are making time to discuss the nature of God's son. The fact is that one is what one is. That is how God describes himself to Moses, "I Am". God did not lay down his divine nature. He can't. It is a permanent part of him. God is not I was or I will be but I Am. What took on flesh was not God but a permanent part of him, his word. Jesus can say, "before Abraham was I Am" because he proceeds forth from God as a permanent part of him, his word! Jesus is a part of God.

He is his express image. But an image is still not the person it is reflecting, nor is a voice the person from where it manifests. Jesus is part of God, not God. I don't know why that doesn't make sense to you? You are made of parts. Aren't you? Your parts are not you! They are but parts, aren't they? Jesus is a part of God. He is his image, his word, his son and our atonement. An atonement that is presented before God and not before himself. He said it himself that his father is greater than he is.
9 months ago: …as for Philippians 2 I think you are missing the point. The disciple tells the believers to have the same mind that was in Christ. You should then ask yourself: What mind is that? Notice that your proof text is worded in such a way that it articulates a distinction between the two. It reads, "Who, being in the form of God…". If he was already God the verse would make no sense, because one who is already God can't, think it not robbery to be equal with himself because that is a given that one is already equal with one's own self. The verse can only make sense if there is a relationship of greater to lesser.

A son in Jesus days could execute the authority of his father as if his father had made the declaration. This is the relationship of Jesus to his father. In this context the verse makes perfect sense, that Jesus who is not God but has the authority to execute God's will did not exalt himself but took the position of a servant. This makes sense because this is the mind which Jesus had that the disciple admonishes the believers to have.
9 months ago: How can something be part of you and not be you?

Are the Father and Jesus separate beings?
7 months ago: Huey, Unless you are suggesting that all "Christians" who attested that they believed that Jesus was the Son of God when they were Baptised all believe that Jesus was his own Father, then yes, they are two seperate beings. (Do you really want to call all those millions of people liars?) That was the jist of the forced religious teachings I received for the first 18 years of my life. Then I got to make my own mind up and after 18 years of watching the hypocrits make the rules and spout scripture......
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7 months ago: Sorry for budding in Six,

God's original form was not a "man" or finite being....

"Christ Jesus: Who, BEING in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross." (Philippians 2:6-8)

...Jesus "BEING" in the form of God... a "continual existence" in the form of God (as Spirit) never ceasing to be God, Jesus Christ humbly took on flesh to save us. Even in the Greek text it is a continual existence as God, yet "emptied" Himself as some other versions put it, of the Glory, not the identity as God. Lessor if you will in position as also human... but equal as God by His Spirit. The question I always ask is... "What form did Jesus have before He came in the flesh?" ...to that the argument is diverted, but never refuted. That is why Jesus said...

"For God is Spirit, so those who worship him must worship in spirit and in truth." (John 4:24)
7 months ago: Hi Six,

Just noticed this comment.

To answer your question, people can misunderstand and misinterpret without being liars. Sometimes it's just a matter of lack of information or traditions getting in the way, not a matter of intentional deception.

That being said, there is a certain element out there that twists scripture to say what it does not say. They do this intentionally and on purpose.

Wouldn't want to be in their shoes come Judgement Day.
6 months ago: Truth and Huey, both sides of this issue are twisting scripture to prove their point. My original comment still stands based on my upbringing and research and observations, when a Christian is Baptized, they profess the belief that Jesus Christ IS the SON of God, not God in human form, not the Holy Ghost, not bananas and ice cream but the fruit of Gods loins via a human female, in other words, there was God, Mary and then came a new person, Jesus Christ. Misunderstanding or misinterpreting does not give anyone a free ride according to Christian Doctrine, you believe or you burn and if you profess anything else while doing the ritual, you lie to yourself, to your religious brethren and to God.

There are certain aspects of the God/Son, two being consciousness that could explain why there is confusion and word play in the Bible, but it doesn't make two one. Shared knowledge or minds, being of like mindedness, knowing each others thoughts and desires to the extent that they could be of one mind is a simplified way of expressing it.

Would have been much simpler if the translators had been able to convey the true meaning of the scriptures as originally intended instead of being influenced by religious zealots, kings, rich people and all those other things going on while the Bible was being written by man. A real religious text would not generate so much controversy, the verbiage would be concise and to the point, there would be no doubt about what a deity would want and absolutely no one would have to interpret scripture for anyone else.

Only man makes a convoluted riddle of something important to other men, this way one man can exert control over the other man. Remember that during the time period after the King James Version was written; only clergy and nobles were allowed to learn to read and even to this day, only clergy are allowed to say what scripture "really" means, at least according to some.
9 months ago: Seriously? Your nose is not your eyes, etc. individually they are part of a collection of parts but that's not the point. The point is that Jesus comes from the father like your breath comes from you. He comes from God like your words come from your mouth. He is the visible manifestation of God's internal thoughts. He is God's image. In Jesus you can see, know and get to know God. Because Jesus is his perfect physical manifestation. You can't be all those things and be God.

God is unknowable. God's ways are so much different than our ways. Sin has caused a chasm between God and humanity that has barred humans from ever having direct access to God. This is why God extended mercy to humans in the physical form of his son. So that we can get to know him. In Jesus we know God. In Jesus we have access to God's mercy. Because Jesus proceeds from God and is not just a creation he has full access to all of the father and can make it manifest to us.
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9 months ago: Another article that proves my oft stated point about Christians disagreeing on everything except the spelling of Jesus. Come on gentlemen - you can't even agree if Jesus was God but maybe I can help you out.

Let's assume that Jesus actually made these claims and they were faithfully recorded years decades later even though the various Gospel accounts don't agree with each other. Here's the solution to this conundrum.

He most certainly was a human being like every person and was of course not born of a virgin. He believed himself to be God or an avatar of God (assuming Dwayne's interpretation) but of course was neither and died like everybody else does but became an illusionary figurehead for a religion not unlike other religions and there you go.

In so far as what Jesus himself believed, it was OOTB who quoted me a verse about the prophetic 2nd coming of Jesus and to quote that verse here,

"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."

Regardless of how you cut the exegesis to jam the square pegs in the round holes, that's prima facie evidence that Jesus was not God as he confesed to being ignorant of an event that God knew and according to the Bible itself, God is omniscient (all-knowing), ergo Jesus wasn't.
9 months ago: MB - Hello. Glad to see you. Miss you on TB's rant. Not going to finish? Swoops?

DJ and I disagree but we are still brothers.

Jesus was limited by His humanity. Done on purpose.

You have not figured out God and neither have DJ and I. We're looking though with open and honest hearts.

Are you?
markbyrn
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 Moderator
9 months ago: ...Jesus was limited by His humanity. Done on purpose...

If he was limited by humanity, he wouldn't of been able to walk on water or the other supernatural acts that were attributed to him.

BTW, most evangelicals brand the Jehovah's Witnesses as heretics / false Christians for not believing that Jesus is God. Do you accept Jehovah's Witnesses as your brethren?

As for the other rant, I just posted again.

9 months ago: Oh Markey, you always post and run when I have you on a point you can't argue. Is this going to be one of them? Hmm? Let's see!

You say Christians don't agree as if that in itself proves something. Do people who read Shakespeare's work agree on an explanation of any of his works? Exactly!

But then you don't even concede and give credit where it is due, that not all Christians see Jesus as God, instead you go by the assumption that Jesus thought himself to be God because it is convenient to your argument. The Irony in your statement is your own ignorance of the topic you claim to be dismantling because If you read the Gospels that you claim don't agree, they all have him saying that he is of his father and calls his disciples his brethren not his creations.

It doesn't really mater that you bring up the Jehovah witnesses, as if Huey is going to agree with you that he doesn't like them. Evangelicals see the teachings of America's four American born religions as heretical. They don't agree with any of the unique teachings of Pentecostals, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses or Seventh Day Adventists. That in itself is inconsequential too because the unique teachings of the rapture are relatively new also. Christianity hadn't focused on Jesus return till the middle 19th century, and the current reworking of Jesus second advent is just as heretical as anything else that is new, relatively speaking of course.

Let me propose to you this Mark. Believing that you are the product of an evolutionary process gets you through the day. Doesn't it? It doesn't? Well then that explains why you are always following religious posts. You are searching for hope. Well guess what? We are too. Don't assume because we accept something relatively incredible to believe that we are morons. Every generation of new discovery needed such believers.

By the way Jesus being an extension of his father doesn't make him an avatar as you put it. It makes him God's word as the Bible puts it. Are you still there? Markey?
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9 months ago: ..You say Christians don't agree as if that in itself proves something..

Oh but it does - it proves that Christianity is like any human invented religion that's subject to schism and historical violent division. In fact, that schism was in fact one of the reasons for the birth of the United States - people of different Christian sects wished to escape the persecution of European Christian State Churches and a secular state was put in place to ensure no one religion or sect would have the power to trample on other people's beliefs. Unfortunately from our founding to the present, there have been religious zealots wishing to rectify that and replace the United States Constitution with their religion.

….But then you don't even concede and give credit where it is due, that not all Christians see Jesus as God, instead you go by the assumption that Jesus thought himself to be God because it is convenient to your argument…

I'm not assuming what Jesus thought but the Bible writers were fairly intent on depicting Jesus as God and I think Huey summed up the position that large sects of Christians believe. As I pointed out though, the Bible writers were not consistent and as indicative of human enterprise, subject to errors and mistakes.

However, debating whether or not Jesus was God or merely an extension is like debating whether or not crop circles came from the UFOs or from mother Earth herself. The answer of course is neither choice. Jesus was a man that died like everybody else and crop circles were constructed by human beings - there is no evidence to suggest otherwise.

…It doesn't really mater that you bring up the Jehovah witnesses, as if Huey is going to agree with you that he doesn't like them….

I didn't bring them up - Huey brought them up and I asked him a question about them vice your beliefs. The fact that evangelical Christan label Jehovah's Witnesses as a false cult is a fact and not my opinion. Of course evangelicals calling the Jehovah's Witnesses a cult is the pot calling the kettle black.

…Believing that you are the product of an evolutionary process gets you through the day. Doesn't it? It doesn't?…

You're wound up tight, aren't you but I've said multiple times before, I'm not an Atheist and I believe they are just as irrational as religionists who claim to know all about God. An Atheist can no more disprove God than a theist can prove his God and to quote the rational Deist who wrote the Age of Reason in 1794 - Thomas Paine,

"The universe is composed of matter, and, as a system is sustained by motion…It is because motion is not a property of matter, that perpetual motion is an impossibility in the hand of every being but that of the Creator of motion. When the pretenders to atheism can produce perpetual motion, and not till then, that they may expect to be credited."

The Atheist is a person who essentially believes in the physics busting canard of perpetual motion machines at the level of our Universe. But does spitting out the bitter seeds of Atheism mean that we should instead swallow the maggot infested watermelons of revealed religion? Not a chance if you're rational.
9 months ago: 1) Christianity is a human endeavor Mark. What did you think Christians think otherwise? Ever herd the term, body of believers? Christians disagreeing simply reinforces our need for a savior. You are proving our point dear!

2) You are assuming. You certainly are not conceding that Huey is right. In fact you are being critical of his belief.

3) You deciding the result of our argument is like a homosexual deciding how good a straight couples sex was to that couple! Ménage à trois anyone?

4) You said, "BTW, most evangelicals brand the Jehovah's Witnesses as…" That is called bringing them up.

5) I didn't call you an atheist. In fact I said you are searching for hope. Do you not read complete sentences dude?

6) Bottom line is you are critical because you've been hurt. People attack when they are backed into a corner. Here is the thing. Nobody at least not me is trying to convince you. I simply find no hope in belittling the faith of others! If a maggot infested watermelon gets you through your day Mark then I respect that. When you find hope you too will stop being so critical.
markbyrn
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 Moderator
9 months ago: ..Christians disagreeing simply reinforces our need for a savior. You are proving our point dear!..

If that's your logic sweet cakes, than all religions are right since they have disagreement in common and why should you presume non-Christians religions need YOUR savior or are you saying those religions are just as valid as your religion?

...You deciding the result of our argument is like a homosexual deciding how good a straight couples sex was to that couple!...

Does a doctor have to be obese to treat a fat person or have cancer to treat the effects of cancer? Could a bisexual decide how good straight sex was?

...You said, "BTW, most evangelicals brand the Jehovah's Witnesses as…" That is called bringing them up...

No, Huey brought them up when he said to you, "I have had Jehovah's Witnesses dance around them before. Now it's your turn." and I asked a question about it.

...I didn't call you an atheist...

That's correct but you're quibbling - you implied I was an Atheist by saying, "Believing that you are the product of an evolutionary process gets you through the day. Doesn't it? It doesn't?"

...Bottom line is you are critical because you've been hurt...

Oh, a shrink too or rather a huckster playing mind games...

...Nobody at least not me is trying to convince you...

Oh no, you're not trying to convince; now what did you write to start this rant off? To quote you,

"I recently read a comment from a fellow ranter who expressed confusion as to the nature of Jesus. Was Jesus God or was his Father God?"

...I simply find no hope in belittling the faith of others!..

LMAO - let's quote YOU again writing to Huey about his faith:

"Do you perhaps have guns and armament amassed in your cellar in readyment for that great and fearful day of Armageddon?...I'll tell you what...I will point out your error's one by one..."Your trinity concept is of pagan Roman origin."

So calling out your fellow Christian brother out as a gun crazed Armageddon loon with pagan beliefs about God is what? Uplifting? Dignified? Respectful?
9 months ago: It's got to be supernatural because folks like DJ and I can disagree and still be cool with each other.

We're having an congenial debate and you step in reading other folks mail and try to make it into a nasty disagreeable argument. Who or what is the author of that?

No group of people on the planet agree on anything 100%. If they did, all that shows is that someone is not thinking.

As far as JWs, they are in theological error. They are sincere and hard working folks, but they Watchtower has many problems with regard to its specific history and denies almost every ascertainable, major bible doctrine. The folks at the door don't know that, but the organizations leadership sure does.

As far as not liking them, I love them and welcome them to my door. We talk, we discuss and I've even been to the Kingdom Hall.

Like I stated at the beginning of this talk, I knew the possibility of some non-believer either misconstruing or seeing our debate as a schism, which it is not.

It's called DIALOGUE for understanding. You are trying to make it into something that it is not and I wonder what truly motivates that.

Could it be that you love us and are attempting to help or are you attempting to stir up trouble and denigrate our faith just because you don't like or have an appreciation for it?
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
9 months ago: ...No group of people on the planet agree on anything 100%. If they did, all that shows is that someone is not thinking...

*TWEET* *TWEET*
9 months ago: @ Mark
I've been telling you honey bottoms that humans need religion. I'm certain it's mine and Huey that it is his. You are the only one squabbling that we don't! If you thought you had the key to eternal life would you keep it to yourself? Don't start from the premise that everybody is wrong except you. Start from the premise that everybody could be right and then start subtracting. Once you have eliminated the impossible everything else is possible!

So Dr. Mark, you are not a fat bisexual doctor with cancer? Just kidding! I wouldn't want a fat doctor giving me counseling on weight loss nor would I want a doctor who smokes treating me. A bisexual would only be right half of the time about how good straight sex is.

Huey didn't bring up Jehovah Witnesses to you though did he? He brought it up to me because he thinks we share the same view point. Your point is mute since you not only discount Jesus divinity but God's divinity as well.

Who is quibbling? Not me! I'm merely using one of your core beliefs, evolution to determine if it does or does not bring you comfort. I think it doesn't! You change the subject to Atheism. I know your not an Atheist because Siempre Solo once called you on it buy saying to you that if you were, you would not be so concerned with what so called religious people think. In fact I believe Siempre called you a disgruntled Seventh Day Adventist. Are you?

Hey! If you can be a doctor then I can be a shrink. It's not as if I am charging you a fee. Rant Rave is still free!

I suppose you are not convinced by my mock tirade aimed at Huey? Huey wasn't either but at least he has thicker skin than you! But if you must know, that first line is partly in reference to the other rant I wrote:
http://www.rantrave.com/Rant/What-Hapens...

It is also partly a challenge to debate. Whatever though because you wont believe me. You should however LYAO because it does sound funny the more you say it. Here try it, "So calling out your fellow Christian brother out as a gun crazed Armageddon loon with pagan beliefs about God is what? Uplifting? Dignified? Respectful?"
markbyrn
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 Moderator
9 months ago: ..I've been telling you honey bottoms that humans need religion..

Hey Sweetie Pie, it's honey bunch not honey bottoms. Now if you want to widen the definition of religion to include philosophies that concern religion, yes I'll agree and frankly, I have no problem with somebody's religion or pseudo-religious philosophy until the try to make it my business or other people's business. In that case, it's fair to look under the hood and kick the proverbial tires, especially if they claim it's the only true religion, they condemn other religions as false, or attempt to impose their religion on other people through political enterprise.

Does that mean they don't have the right to be all of the above. Of course and we all are to some extent (we are tend to want to push our particular beliefs), including myself but such claims are subject to scrutiny and criticism. There's no sacred cows.

..Your point is mute since you not only discount Jesus divinity but God's divinity as well...

No, I discount any religion's attempt to define God in terms of human revelation. It's nothing but fantastical speculation since they are unable to prove it and critical analysis of religions often results in exposure of errors such as with allegedly God inspired religious texts.
9 months ago: Huey,

As usual you present yourself as the gentleman I'm sure you are in person. I tried to point those same things out to him but I'm not as eloquent, refined or most importantly, to the point. I think he gets it though that our interaction is theological and respectful at its core. I don't think however that he is at peace with his own beliefs. And I too wonder why? Perhaps he is in search of something more meaningful.
9 months ago: "our interaction is theological and respectful at its core."

Yes sir. And it seems that for whatever reason he can't stand it.

We were poking at each other and having fun. But we were not over-the-top insulting, condescending or judgemental in the least.

No negative vibes whatsoever as far as I am concerned.

I guess that kind of unity amongst Christians bothers or even outright scares some folks.

8 months ago: Like I pointed out earlier Huey. You demonstrate considerable more eloquence than I do when you write. My comments come out sounding crass and combative sometimes. But that is part of my style. When I write here on RantRave it is to have fun and spicy commentary is part of that fun. You are right that our discussion was friendly and intellectual. I've had many of them with fellow church members who don't see things like I do. It is what Christians do when we care about what we believe. I don't think Mark doesn't get this. I think he was probably hurt by someone religious in his past and thinks it stems from that persons religion. Christians tend to walk and talk in cliques which makes outsiders looking to come in a bit put off. Mark's combative approach at joining our amicable debate might be his way of maintaining his edge. If so I welcome it because I enjoy sparring.
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8 months ago: So after this interesting debate and circling of the wagons, the take-away here is that doesn't matter whether one thinks Jesus is God or not as long as they believe in Jesus; it's a minor point that doesn't make a difference in terms of being a Christian or not.

So the question is why have a public debate over trivial theological matters that don't have import related to being a Christian? Of course such a notion would not sit well with vast tracts of fundamentalists who believe that the deity of Jesus Christ is one of the cornerstones of Christianity and believe that those deny of Jesus are not Christians at all. But as Huey noted, not everybody agrees on everything and I think Huey is more tolerant than fundamentalists who condemn people over insignificant matters.

But would this umbrella of tolerance fall the Islamic religion which also believes in Jesus? To quote the Koran:

Remember) when the angels said, "O Mary, God gives you good news of a word from Him (God), whose name is the Messiah Jesus, son of Mary, revered in this world and the Hereafter, and one of those brought near (to God).  He will speak to the people from his cradle and as a man, and he is of the righteous." She said, "My Lord, how can I have a child when no mortal has touched me?" He said, "So (it will be).  God creates what He wills.  If He decrees a thing, He says to it only, 'Be!' and it is."  (Quran, 3:45-47)
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8 months ago: Mark,

Why does it matter if you get the wrong Jesus? Why can't we just believe in Jesus even if we only believe he is a good man? He hasn't left that option open! Jesus claimed ALL AUTHORITY... either that is a lie or truth.

Jesus said... "I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I Am you will die in your sins." (John 8:24)

Jesus said... "For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect." (Matthew 24:24)

"For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Such a one is the deceiver and the Antichrist." (2 John 1:7)
8 months ago: Mark, I think you already know the answer to how important Jesus is to the removal of sin from a degenerate human soul, but I don't think that is what you mean to ask. What you really want to know is how can we agree to disagree after all that argument? Right? We can and do because each one of us is convinced in the sincerity of our faith. The message of the Gospel is simple, God is Love and in Jesus there is salvation and in that both Huey and I adamantly agree but Muslims don't agree with that! In fact to Muslims Jesus is just a prophet. They neither see him as the son of God or as God's express image, which once again Huey and I both sincerely do. To Muslims Jesus is a minor prophet whose main purpose was to announce the advent of Mohamed. Not at all the same as Christianity but then again you already knew that. Didn't you!
8 months ago: I guess I should also address if the Nature of Jesus is relevant to the plan of Salvation. To that I would respond like this. We humans are in spiritual darkness. We don't know the difference between a pile of cow dung and the direct word of God. Which is why as far as I am concerned it doesn't really matter at first. I know that in the big picture it must play a crucial role but not until I can fully understand it will it truly matter.
8 months ago: None of us on here are "sweetness and light" all the time. I know I've had my moments in the past and have actually apologized to folks.

That being said we can still have fun and even throw barbs without being disparaging or intentionally mean spirited.

MB - The deity of Christ is not a small matter. That's why I was not going to debate it at first. I did not wan to be involved in a discourse that could easily degenerate into a name calling contest or get trivialized depending on who decides to join in. The Lord would get no glory from that at all.

Based on what I see regarding DJ's overall understanding of the atonement and how he applies it to his life specifically, I'm not willing to break fellowship or write him off as some total heretic. Simple.

I know where I stand on the issue and I've studied it for years. I was one who did not see or understand it at first either. Years of intense study, prayer, and living in my day to day walk has changed that understanding to where I am today.

If any others who name the Name of Christ are not there, all I really can do is share what I know and leave it there.
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8 months ago: Huey you are doing great!

IF someone doesn't have Jesus as LORD AND GOD they don't have Jesus!

Mark...

This is not a case of Christians disagreeing... it is a case of DJ presenting a non-biblical Jesus...and Huey doing a fine job of pointing it out !:]

"For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace." (Isaiah 9:6)

God said "...They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son." (Zechariah 12:10)

"No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also." (1 John 2:23)

Read More...
http://rantrave.com/Rave/Trinity-In-Ques...
markbyrn
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 Moderator
8 months ago: ...IF someone doesn't have Jesus as LORD AND GOD they don't have Jesus!
...This is not a case of Christians disagreeing... it is a case of DJ presenting a non-biblical Jesus...

Truthbarry, you have my respect for being refreshingly frank here; no beating around the bush and sugar coating critical differences with parsed diplomatic dissimulation. Coincidentally since you mentioned your previous post, Edward Lee also wrote a post to defend the Trinity and I wrote two responses that didn't get an answer:

http://www.rantrave.com/Rave/The-Trinity...
8 months ago: "no beating around the bush and sugar coating critical differences with parsed diplomatic dissimulation."

Love it.

BTW - I may be diplomatic, but I have not beat around the bush, I have not candy coated anything, nor am I attempting to deceive or mislead anyone.

I guess your conundrum is that, as a Christian I don't fit your mold.

Apparently I don't write off and condemn folks as easily as you would or like you think I should.
8 months ago: Quoting scriptures to Mark, TB will not convince him. Mark sees Christianity as a barbaric religion and he sees any believers as total or partial loons and incoherent. What you have done is just confirm to him and others that there is a dominant backing to the evangelical viewpoint regardless of what the traditional non Trinitarian and very much biblical) view point was.

Besides as I demonstrated to Huey the scriptures that Trinitarians quote as proof text of Jesus divinity demonstrate his equality to God not his Godhood. The best way to explain this seeming contradiction is that Jesus proceeds from God much like your breath and word proceeds from you. This is how John describes it and it is this interpretation that makes the most sense.

But lest you think that scripture doesn't make a distinction between Jesus and God. Jesus himself said in John 14:1&2 "Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions…" Jesus is clear in this Text that his Father is God and that he is his trustworthy representative! Notice he doesn't say, "You believe in God well I and my Father are him" or "You believe in God, well I am him"

The Trinitarian teaching of God is simply not biblical and you and all the other trinity believers are just afraid of admitting such a big biblical blunder. Don't be so proud. Humble yourself and accept Jesus as God's perfect gift to humanity, a full and unblemished image of himself to learn and partake of.
8 months ago: According to the Prophet Isaiah - God created the universe. He did it by Himself. There was no co-creator.

Gospel John the first chapter and Colossians the first chapter as well as the Book of Hebrews declares Christ as the Creator.

How is that?

I would like to see MB's response and DJ's. I am sure the responses will be radically different and quite entertaining.

When I was a kid I liked to play hopscotch too.
markbyrn
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 Moderator
8 months ago: Huey, do you agree or not agree with the TB statements?

..IF someone doesn't have Jesus as LORD AND GOD they don't have Jesus!..

...it is a case of DJ presenting a non-biblical Jesus...

...Gospel John the first chapter and Colossians the first chapter as well as the Book of Hebrews declares Christ as the Creator...I would like to see MB's response and DJ's...

To quote myself,

"I'm not assuming what Jesus thought but the Bible writers were fairly intent on depicting Jesus as God and I think Huey summed up the position that large sects of Christians believe. As I pointed out though, the Bible writers were not consistent and as indicative of human enterprise, subject to errors and mistakes."
8 months ago: My bad. With all the other stuff floating around I had not keyed in on that statement even though I kinda knew that's where you would go.

As far as TB's statements, not every believer in Jesus recognizes Him as God. I did not at first either.

What is even more paramount is believing that Jesus is the CHRIST and that His blood and His blood alone atones for our sins. The acknowledgement that we are no longer our own and that He is our Lord seals it.

That being said, I believe anyone who has received Jesus as Christ and Lord who sincrerely studies the scriptures for any significant lenght of time will come to more fully undsertand Who in fact their Savior is.
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8 months ago: Mark,

To be fair... many come to saving faith without believing everything correctly... but IF we are students of God'd Word we soon will have all things in common. Even those who were apostles were rebuked for teaching the wrong thing...

Peter (on the issue of circumcision by Paul):
"But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly wrong." Galatians 2:11

Appolos:
"He began to speak boldly in the synagogue, but when Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they took him and explained to him the way of God more accurately." Acts 18:26

...Even Jesus called Peter... Satan for not having God's plan in mind... so it is not a contradiction in the faith of the believers... the Word doesn't change... only our understanding and agreement with God's unchanging plan and promises. The reason we have so many churches is that we gravitate to those teachings we like... and away from those we don't... or simply that we are maturing and need time to grow in the instruction of the Lord.

"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." 2 Timothy 2:15

...the problem also can be that they are not Born Again and cannot understand spiritual things:

"The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned." 1 Corinthians 2:14
8 months ago: The Jehovah Witnesses refer to Jesus as God's first Creation a higher form of being or as you put it "a god". THERE IS NO BIBLICAL EVIDENCE FOR THIS! I have not said nor would I ever support such a preposterous teaching. I've already responded to this on more than one occasion. Perhaps you have just glossed over it. Jesus is the word of Life. Jesus is God's perfect image made flesh! He is an eternal part of God the Father. A spiritual extension of God himself and as such a part of God and not God. Simply put, "My voice is part of me. It is not me." When you hear my voice it is I who speak not a separate entity called My Voice. It is God's breath that willed life into lifeless clay. It is God's voice that spoke the universe into existence. You and I call God's breath and voice Jesus. God calls him son.
3 months ago: He was alone. God spoke everything into existence. His speech is alive. God calls it his word. We call it God's son
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8 months ago: "If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved." Romans 10:9-10

"There is one Lord, one faith, one baptism," Ephesians 4:5

Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!" John 20:28


"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached to the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory." 1 Timothy 3:16
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8 months ago: IF one contends that Jesus is "a" god... like the JW's do, saying that Jesus is Michael the Arch angel...and is just "a god" not THE God. The Old Testament scriptures are the very foundation to describing and understanding Christ... they are in fact the very scriptures that need to be fulfilled... presenting who Jesus is. Scriptures as in the book of Isaiah, God states clearly that He is the only God, and there is none beside, before or after Him...

"You are My witnesses," declares the LORD, "and My servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe Me and understand that I am He. Before Me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after Me." Isaiah 43:10

"Fear not, nor be afraid; have I not told you from of old and declared it? And you are My witnesses! Is there a God besides Me? There is no Rock; I know not any." Isaiah 44:8

...In Hosea God says He is the only Savior... Yet in the New Testament we have everyone calling Him the ONLY Savior...

"But I am the LORD your God from the land of Egypt; you know no God but me, and besides me there is no Savior." Hosea 13:4

...the Angels declared AT the birth of Jesus Christ that HE was the Savior...

"For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord." Luke 2:11

"Declare and present your case; let them take counsel together! Who told this long ago? Who declared it of old? Was it not I, the LORD? And there is no other god besides Me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none besides Me." Isaiah 45:21
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8 months ago: The thing is God is not a man... and He had to humble Himself to take on our form, so He did it as a child born of a virgin... a child who's parents were Mary and God.... the "son of man" and "the son of God" ...the apostle John said it this way...

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made....14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1:1-3, 14

...here Jesus is called the Word, the Light, Creator, and "Son who came from the Father" ...Jesus calls the "Father" God ...and the "Father" calls the Son God too...

But of the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom." Hebrews 1:8
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8 months ago: As a precursor to Prophesy being fulfilled God Himself indicates His "duality" if you will, when He created man in His image...

"Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." 27God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them." Genesis 1:26

...the greatest mystery is that God became flesh... so man could become Spirit!

"So it is written: "The first man Adam (Adam) became a living being"; the last Adam (Jesus), a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man (Adam) was of the dust of the earth; the second man (Jesus) is of heaven. 48 As was the earthly man (Adam), so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man (Jesus), so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man (Adam), so shall we bear the image of the heavenly man (Jesus)." 1 Corinthians 15:45-49

...See the great depth of the plan of God? He became part of man's family, so that we could be part of God's family!
8 months ago: TB Said: God Himself indicates His "duality" if you will, when He created man in His image, "Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness…"

My Response: I've got no problem with God referring to himself as Us because he can be everywhere at the same time. That is definitely plurality. It is how he operates. I often find myself telling my hands, "You do this…" while I tell my legs, "You do that…" If I were God then you might say that my legs and hands and me are three persons in one Godhead but you would be wrong. They are living extensions of me, the one and only! They are a part of me; it's true but in no way are they me.

TB, Do you realize that 1 Corinthians 15:45-49 is referring to the difference between the moral and immoral, between the holy and sinful, between the corrupt and incorrupt ? Man is sinful, vile and corrupt. Jesus is sinless and undefiled.

The image of God has to be imprinted in our minds and actions in place of our corrupted image. And who pray tell is the image of God? None other but Gods son, Jesus.
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8 months ago: DJ,

Plurality... "The state or fact of being plural"

Duality... "A dual state or quality...symmetry" ...duality describes what God has expressed in His Word about His nature and Presence... but I think you are seeing more how God has revealed Himself... like you said...

"I often find myself telling my hands, "You do this…" while I tell my legs, "You do that…" If I were God then you might say that my legs and hands and me are three persons in one Godhead but you would be wrong."

I agree! IF IF IF I said that those "arms and legs...etc were "three persons" I would be wrong.... BUT I DIDN'T. I believe as you asserted that GOD responds to His members as you might... Jesus is the Word of the Lord, and the "Arm of the LORD"...read one of the greatest chapters in the Bible...

Who has believed our message
and to whom has the ARM OF THE LORD been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by mankind,
a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.

4 Surely he took up our pain
and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
stricken by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to our own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all...."
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8 months ago: Sorry the above ref was Isaiah 53.
8 months ago: One more addendum is that TB seems to be implying that the truth of Jesus nature can be ascertained by a popularity vote. The more that believe he is God seals it that he is. It doesn't matter how many people say something it doesn't make it true.
8 months ago: It's not a matter of a popularity vote. He is Who He is. Whether we fully grasp it or not, understand it or not, like it or not. What seals it is that the Word of God declares it. It's no blunder.

It's quite impossible to read the entire Gospel of John, understand it and not see Who Jesus is. The Apostle Paul sure had no misunderstanding, either.

DJ - You have a right to believe as you do, I'm not going to down you for it. All due respect however, your understanding though deep, falls short of the full revelation of Who our Savior is.
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8 months ago: DJ, here is a few references that describe Jesus as God and His revelation...

Adam, the Last (1 Cor. 15:45)

Advocate (1 Jn. 2:1)

All & in All (Col. 3:11)

Almighty (Rev. 1:8)

Altogether Lovely One (Song of Sol. 5:16)

Amen (Rev. 3:14)

Anchor (Heb. 6:19)

Ancient of Days (Dan. 7:9-11 with Rev. 1:13-16)

Angel [of the Lord] (Gen. 16:9-14; Gen. 48:16)

Anointed, His (Ps. 2:2). See also Messiah.

Apostle (Heb. 3:1)

Arm of the Lord (Isa. 53:1)

Alpha & Omega (Rev. 1:8; 21:6)

Author (Heb. 12:2)

Balm of Gilead (Jer. 8:22)

Beginning (Col. 1:18)

Begotten (One and Only – John 3:16)

Beloved (Eph. 1:6)

Bishop of your souls (1 Pet. 2:25)

Blessed and only Potentate (1 Tim. 6:15)

Branch (Isa. 11:1; Jer. 23:5; Zech. 3:8; 6:12; Rev. 11:1)

Bread (John 6:32-33; 6:35)

Bridegroom (Mt. 9:15; Jn. 3:29; Rev. 21:9)

Bright & Morning Star, see Star.

Brightness of His (God's) glory (Heb. 1:3)

Captain of their salvation (Heb. 2:12; Josh. 5:4)

Carpenter['s son] (Mt. 13:55; Mk. 6:3)

Chief[est among ten thousand] Song of Sol. 5:10)

Child, [the young] (Isa. 9:6; Mt. 2:8-21)

Chosen of God (Lk. 23:35)

Christ (Mt. 1:17; Mk. 8:29; Jn. 1:41; Rom. 1:16; 1 Cor. 1:23)

Comforter (Isa. 61:2; Jn. 14:16)

Commander (Isa. 55:4)

Consolation of Israel (Lk. 2:25)

Corn of Wheat (Jn. 12:24)

Cornerstone (Eph. 2:20; see also Isa. 28:16)

Counsellor (Isa. 9:6; Isa. 40:13)

Covert (Isa. 32:2)

Creator of all things (Col. 1:16)

Daysman (Job 9:33)

Dayspring from on high (Lk. 1:78)

Day Star (2 Pet. 1:19). See also Bright & Morning Star.

Deliverer (Rom. 11:26)

Desire of all nations (Hag. 2:7)

Door [of the sheepfold] (Jn. 10:7, 9)

Emmanuel (Mt. 1:23; see also Isa. 7:14; 8:8)

End, see Beginning & the End. End of the Law (Rom 10:4)

Express image of His (God's) person (Heb. 1:3)
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8 months ago: DJ, here is