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How is Jesus exactly related to his Father?

Posted 24 months ago|135 comments|3,545 views
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I recently read a comment from a fellow ranter who expressed confusion as to the nature of Jesus. Was Jesus God or was his Father God? This confusion has plagued Christians as long as the Catholic Church has held on to the belief of the Trinity. What some people might not know is that this teaching did not originate in the early church. The early churches view ofJesus relation to his Father was different than that of today.

Jesus claimed to be one with his Father. In those days a message from someone's son was as good as if it had come from his father! In that sense they were one. I don't believe he thought that he was God in the flesh. Nor do I think his disciples thought that either. That concept is Roman in origin where the idea of gods breeding with humans was common.

In the epistle of 1John the disciple begins the letter by referring to Jesus as the Word of God this reference is very descriptive of Jesus relationship with his Father if you analyze it. Bellow is a brief description of what I've garnered from it.

1. Much like a persons word is as trustworthy as the person who spoke it so is Jesus as his Father.

2. Without ones own word little can be known about ones own self to others, likewise Jesus reveals His Father to us.

3. One can exist without ones own word and likewise ones own word can live on long after ones own self is gone. In a similar way The Father and the Son are independent of each other.

4. Ones own word is intangibly inseparable from ones own self, in the sense that one cannot be known apart from owns own word. In like manner Jesus and his Father are inseparable.

5. A person chooses when to speak, likewise God the Father sends Jesus at his own choosing.

6. A person does not create words like he creates other works. A persons words are an outward expression of that persons inner most thinking and so Jesus was not created like the Father Created other creatures instead he proceeded forth from his Father as the outward expression of his Fathers inner most thoughts.

Follow this line of thinking on you will see how Jesus can be of divine origin and still not be his father. You can also begin to understand how this view of Jesus prevents the Christian from having two gods and Christianity to be monotheistic.
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24 months ago: "I don't believe he thought that he was God in the flesh. Nor do I think his disciples thought that either. "

Okay. Then you don't believe the testimony of the Scriptures. That's your prerogative.

Titus 2:13, John 1:1, Colossians 1:16, John 8:58, and more than I care to list. You need to do your homework.

Tell you what though, The Pharisees sure thought Jesus was claiming to be God. That was one of the major reasons that they had Him condemned.

Have a gas.
17 months ago: Exactly Huey...

"It has been a contention from other faiths that Christianity is polytheistic, which it is not. Muslims reject the teaching of many gods, or that there are 3 Gods in one. One can see plainly how they have come to this understanding when one observes the double talk on this issue. If the Father is not the Son (Jesus), and the Son is not the Holy Spirit and so on... you have 3 separate individuals in one God. One could argue and say that they are just 3 "persons" but that would be a matter of semantics.

"For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace." (Isaiah 9:6)
http://www.rantrave.com/Rave/Trinity-In-...
24 months ago: Geeze! You seem upset, almost insulted. Do you perhaps have guns and armament amassed in your cellar in readyment for that great and fearful day of Armageddon?

I'll tell you what. I will point out your error's one by one. Okay?

1) In the King James Bible Titus2:13 reads as follows: "Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;" Did you catch that last part? It reads, "of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ". Who is coming with the great God? The Bible answers that question, "our Saviour Jesus Christ". What, did you not notice the word, "and"? Two distinct persons are mentioned. Trying to use ,"and" to say that Jesus is the Great God would be to say that every time "and" is used that the words joined by it are meant to be interpreted as one object or person and not the accompaniment of the two, such as peanut butter and jelly.

2) I love the verse found in John 1:1 so much that I use its twin found in 1 John 1:1 as the base for my explanation of Jesus relationship to his Father. Reread my analysis of Jesus being referred to as, "the word". It occupies the majority of my essay. But before you do that compare John1:1 to 1 John 1:1 I would like you to see how the disciple elaborates on what was written in John 1:1 with what he writes in 1 John 1:1. Here are the two verses.

John 1:1 reads as follows: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God

1 John 1:1-3 reads as follows: That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;) That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

Notice how in both verses Jesus is referred to as the Word but in 1 John it expounds what type of word he is, "the word of life". Notice how the disciple goes on to say that the word of life to whom they bare witness was with the Father. Notice how the disciple beseeches his listeners to fellowship with them and those whom they fellowship with, that is the Father and his son. If you were just to read John 1:1 I might understand your confusion on the matter but as you told me to do you should take your own advice, " You need to do your homework."

3) Before reading Colossians 1:16 you should read the rest of that chapter so as to take its meaning in proper context. Take for example verse 3 of Colossians 1 that reads, "We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you" clearly saying that Jesus is not his own Father. But continue on and you will also see in verses 12 and 13 that the disciple gives thanks to the Father for allowing them to be partakers of his son's kingdom. As it is written, "Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:" Notice that verse 15 calls Jesus, "the image of the invisible God" and "the firstborn of every creature:" Thus leading up to the verse you mentioned clearly indicating Jesus as the author of life. If Jesus is God's word and God speaks life into existence then Jesus being God's word, his image it would clearly make sense that he is their maker. Still it doesn't call Jesus the Father.

4) Finally John 8:58 states, "Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am" This makes perfect sense since he holds such a unique relationship with his Father. Jesus being the Word of Life indicates he is the active force that created the universe that proceeded from the
22 months ago: Kept up the good work but remember, those that oppose your views will never keep things in context. Scripture hopping is their fovorite tool to prove their point no matter what the scripture actually says.

I'm a bit late joining in so don't fret a reponse.
22 months ago: As far as scripture hopping, you will have to throw out the entire Gospel Of John or conclude that it was not inspired in order to deny the revelation that Jesus is God.

That being said, I respect your honest inquiry. You probably knew that already though.
24 months ago: that proceeded from the Fathers mouth, his word. So let me ask you. Are you your word or is your word an outward expression of your inner thoughts? Of course Jesus was around as long as God has spoken. He is his word!
24 months ago: Not upset or insulted at all. Just surprised at you lack of sound biblical scholarship and exegesis. Really makes no nevermind to me, it's your walk.

I never said Jesus stated or implied that Jesus is His own Father either.

Isaiah 44:24 clearly states that God was alone when He created the universe. That He did it by Himself. At the same time Colossians clearly demonstrates Jesus as the Creator and sustainer of all things.

There are not two Alphas and Omegas, nor are there two Firsts and Lasts.

But like I said, it's not worth fussin' over. That's just what the world wants and I'll not get sucked into that.

You believe it like you want and I'll stick with what is clearly written. Peace.
24 months ago: Saying you are correct after being proven otherwise does not change the fact that you're misunderstanding what you have read. I went over every text you quoted and all they proved was that Jesus and his Father are two distinct persons. I also showed you how the scripture has Jesus as the primary operative force behind the creation of God's universe. You blaming "The World" as wanting a squabble is just divisiveness and laziness on your part. You say I'm wrong, can't prove it, insist I'm wrong, blame some random people and then run. Does that about some it up? If you are right then prove it? I did! Now prove me wrong!
Content Removed by Huey Newton
24 months ago: Your pot stirring and name calling are not going to work.

Also you haven't proven a thing other than that you don't know how to exegete scripture.

God created the universe alone. Isaiah 44:24. Jesus is from eternity past as the Word. John 1:1. Jesus is designated the Creator in John 1:3 and Colossians 1:16-18 just to name two references. Jesus is not His Father but Jesus is God. They are distinct but they are of the same substance. Deity.

You can spin it however you want, you can believe whatever you want, but the Scripture says what it says.

I liked you better when you had the other "Dwayne" face.

Maybe TB, Box or Edward will play with you. It's dinner time and I'm goin' home now.
24 months ago: No insults, just facts. Are you your word? No, right? Does your word come from you? Yes, right? Did you create your word? No, right? Your word is your direct expression though. Yes, right? Jesus is not God. Only the Father is God. Jesus is God's Word! He was not created. He proceeds from God. He is God's direct expression. That is what the Bible teaches. Your trinity concept is of pagan Roman origin. Enjoy your dinner and I don't care which Dwayne or Siempre Solo you like better because much like Jesus I still like you the same despite you not because of you!
24 months ago: Thanks.

Question: In your mind how do you reconcile these scriptures -

I have had Jehovah's Witnesses dance around them before. Now it's your turn.

"Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, "I, the LORD, am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens by Myself And spreading out the earth all ALONE."

"Through Him (JESUS) all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made."

Also John 1:1 clearly says the Word was God and the Word being God has no beginning.

"This is what the LORD says—
Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty:
I am the first and I am the last;
apart from me there is no God. "

"Before Me there was no God formed and there will be none after Me"

The Word was and is God.

I'm settled on the issue, just as you are.

The deity of Christ is clearly taught throughout the entire NT. If some folks want to attribute it to paganism that's their issue not mine. Doesn't change it from being the revealed truth.

I would just like to examine your thought process so that I can refute it if and when it comes from another source.

Also - Thanks for still liking me. I like you too even though your sometimes a nudge!
24 months ago: As I've already enumerated in this essay. The relationship of Jesus to his father can be understood by analyzing the relationship of ones own word to ones own self! It is quite simple really that is why the Bible uses that analogy!

You keep thinking of Jesus as an entity that is either created or not created (in other words Human or God) But the Bible clearly teaches that he proceeds forth from God as the active force of Life.

Therefore all creative powers are attributed to him but consider where Jesus proceeds from? His father! Jesus is the voice of his father. Much like your pen name is your voice here on RantRave but clearly not you! Your voice has existed as long as you yet it is you who bring it forth. Therefore you are its source! Your voice exists for you. It is a part of you!

Think of it like this: The voice, the will of God was placed in the body of a man and that man is called Jesus!
24 months ago: Interesting. The reason why all creative powers are attributed to Him because he is the Creator. Period.

"You keep thinking of Jesus as an entity that is either created or not created (in other words Human or God)"

Incorrect assessment. Jesus is not the Father but he is one with Him. He is of the same exact nature and substance. He is God.

When He came to earth He was fully God and fully human. He laid aside deity temporarily and lived through his humanity (Philippians 2:6-7).

Also, you have not yet reconciled the previous verses.

How can Jesus be self-existent (John 1:1, John 8:58; Ego eimi), be the Creator (John 1:3) and sustainer of of all things (Colossians 1:16-17) and although distinct in personality from the Father, not be God?

If you want to dance around those verses again, I have more.

This is turning into a pretty congenial discussion and now it's kind of fun. I also have a little free time on my hands today.
24 months ago: It's nice to know you are making time to discuss the nature of God's son. The fact is that one is what one is. That is how God describes himself to Moses, "I Am". God did not lay down his divine nature. He can't. It is a permanent part of him. God is not I was or I will be but I Am. What took on flesh was not God but a permanent part of him, his word. Jesus can say, "before Abraham was I Am" because he proceeds forth from God as a permanent part of him, his word! Jesus is a part of God.

He is his express image. But an image is still not the person it is reflecting, nor is a voice the person from where it manifests. Jesus is part of God, not God. I don't know why that doesn't make sense to you? You are made of parts. Aren't you? Your parts are not you! They are but parts, aren't they? Jesus is a part of God. He is his image, his word, his son and our atonement. An atonement that is presented before God and not before himself. He said it himself that his father is greater than he is.
24 months ago: …as for Philippians 2 I think you are missing the point. The disciple tells the believers to have the same mind that was in Christ. You should then ask yourself: What mind is that? Notice that your proof text is worded in such a way that it articulates a distinction between the two. It reads, "Who, being in the form of God…". If he was already God the verse would make no sense, because one who is already God can't, think it not robbery to be equal with himself because that is a given that one is already equal with one's own self. The verse can only make sense if there is a relationship of greater to lesser.

A son in Jesus days could execute the authority of his father as if his father had made the declaration. This is the relationship of Jesus to his father. In this context the verse makes perfect sense, that Jesus who is not God but has the authority to execute God's will did not exalt himself but took the position of a servant. This makes sense because this is the mind which Jesus had that the disciple admonishes the believers to have.
24 months ago: How can something be part of you and not be you?

Are the Father and Jesus separate beings?
22 months ago: Huey, Unless you are suggesting that all "Christians" who attested that they believed that Jesus was the Son of God when they were Baptised all believe that Jesus was his own Father, then yes, they are two seperate beings. (Do you really want to call all those millions of people liars?) That was the jist of the forced religious teachings I received for the first 18 years of my life. Then I got to make my own mind up and after 18 years of watching the hypocrits make the rules and spout scripture......
22 months ago: Sorry for budding in Six,

God's original form was not a "man" or finite being....

"Christ Jesus: Who, BEING in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross." (Philippians 2:6-8)

...Jesus "BEING" in the form of God... a "continual existence" in the form of God (as Spirit) never ceasing to be God, Jesus Christ humbly took on flesh to save us. Even in the Greek text it is a continual existence as God, yet "emptied" Himself as some other versions put it, of the Glory, not the identity as God. Lessor if you will in position as also human... but equal as God by His Spirit. The question I always ask is... "What form did Jesus have before He came in the flesh?" ...to that the argument is diverted, but never refuted. That is why Jesus said...

"For God is Spirit, so those who worship him must worship in spirit and in truth." (John 4:24)
22 months ago: Hi Six,

Just noticed this comment.

To answer your question, people can misunderstand and misinterpret without being liars. Sometimes it's just a matter of lack of information or traditions getting in the way, not a matter of intentional deception.

That being said, there is a certain element out there that twists scripture to say what it does not say. They do this intentionally and on purpose.

Wouldn't want to be in their shoes come Judgement Day.
21 months ago: Truth and Huey, both sides of this issue are twisting scripture to prove their point. My original comment still stands based on my upbringing and research and observations, when a Christian is Baptized, they profess the belief that Jesus Christ IS the SON of God, not God in human form, not the Holy Ghost, not bananas and ice cream but the fruit of Gods loins via a human female, in other words, there was God, Mary and then came a new person, Jesus Christ. Misunderstanding or misinterpreting does not give anyone a free ride according to Christian Doctrine, you believe or you burn and if you profess anything else while doing the ritual, you lie to yourself, to your religious brethren and to God.

There are certain aspects of the God/Son, two being consciousness that could explain why there is confusion and word play in the Bible, but it doesn't make two one. Shared knowledge or minds, being of like mindedness, knowing each others thoughts and desires to the extent that they could be of one mind is a simplified way of expressing it.

Would have been much simpler if the translators had been able to convey the true meaning of the scriptures as originally intended instead of being influenced by religious zealots, kings, rich people and all those other things going on while the Bible was being written by man. A real religious text would not generate so much controversy, the verbiage would be concise and to the point, there would be no doubt about what a deity would want and absolutely no one would have to interpret scripture for anyone else.

Only man makes a convoluted riddle of something important to other men, this way one man can exert control over the other man. Remember that during the time period after the King James Version was written; only clergy and nobles were allowed to learn to read and even to this day, only clergy are allowed to say what scripture "really" means, at least according to some.
24 months ago: Seriously? Your nose is not your eyes, etc. individually they are part of a collection of parts but that's not the point. The point is that Jesus comes from the father like your breath comes from you. He comes from God like your words come from your mouth. He is the visible manifestation of God's internal thoughts. He is God's image. In Jesus you can see, know and get to know God. Because Jesus is his perfect physical manifestation. You can't be all those things and be God.

God is unknowable. God's ways are so much different than our ways. Sin has caused a chasm between God and humanity that has barred humans from ever having direct access to God. This is why God extended mercy to humans in the physical form of his son. So that we can get to know him. In Jesus we know God. In Jesus we have access to God's mercy. Because Jesus proceeds from God and is not just a creation he has full access to all of the father and can make it manifest to us.
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
24 months ago: Another article that proves my oft stated point about Christians disagreeing on everything except the spelling of Jesus. Come on gentlemen - you can't even agree if Jesus was God but maybe I can help you out.

Let's assume that Jesus actually made these claims and they were faithfully recorded years decades later even though the various Gospel accounts don't agree with each other. Here's the solution to this conundrum.

He most certainly was a human being like every person and was of course not born of a virgin. He believed himself to be God or an avatar of God (assuming Dwayne's interpretation) but of course was neither and died like everybody else does but became an illusionary figurehead for a religion not unlike other religions and there you go.

In so far as what Jesus himself believed, it was OOTB who quoted me a verse about the prophetic 2nd coming of Jesus and to quote that verse here,

"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."

Regardless of how you cut the exegesis to jam the square pegs in the round holes, that's prima facie evidence that Jesus was not God as he confesed to being ignorant of an event that God knew and according to the Bible itself, God is omniscient (all-knowing), ergo Jesus wasn't.
24 months ago: MB - Hello. Glad to see you. Miss you on TB's rant. Not going to finish? Swoops?

DJ and I disagree but we are still brothers.

Jesus was limited by His humanity. Done on purpose.

You have not figured out God and neither have DJ and I. We're looking though with open and honest hearts.

Are you?
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
24 months ago: ...Jesus was limited by His humanity. Done on purpose...

If he was limited by humanity, he wouldn't of been able to walk on water or the other supernatural acts that were attributed to him.

BTW, most evangelicals brand the Jehovah's Witnesses as heretics / false Christians for not believing that Jesus is God. Do you accept Jehovah's Witnesses as your brethren?

As for the other rant, I just posted again.

24 months ago: Oh Markey, you always post and run when I have you on a point you can't argue. Is this going to be one of them? Hmm? Let's see!

You say Christians don't agree as if that in itself proves something. Do people who read Shakespeare's work agree on an explanation of any of his works? Exactly!

But then you don't even concede and give credit where it is due, that not all Christians see Jesus as God, instead you go by the assumption that Jesus thought himself to be God because it is convenient to your argument. The Irony in your statement is your own ignorance of the topic you claim to be dismantling because If you read the Gospels that you claim don't agree, they all have him saying that he is of his father and calls his disciples his brethren not his creations.

It doesn't really mater that you bring up the Jehovah witnesses, as if Huey is going to agree with you that he doesn't like them. Evangelicals see the teachings of America's four American born religions as heretical. They don't agree with any of the unique teachings of Pentecostals, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses or Seventh Day Adventists. That in itself is inconsequential too because the unique teachings of the rapture are relatively new also. Christianity hadn't focused on Jesus return till the middle 19th century, and the current reworking of Jesus second advent is just as heretical as anything else that is new, relatively speaking of course.

Let me propose to you this Mark. Believing that you are the product of an evolutionary process gets you through the day. Doesn't it? It doesn't? Well then that explains why you are always following religious posts. You are searching for hope. Well guess what? We are too. Don't assume because we accept something relatively incredible to believe that we are morons. Every generation of new discovery needed such believers.

By the way Jesus being an extension of his father doesn't make him an avatar as you put it. It makes him God's word as the Bible puts it. Are you still there? Markey?
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
24 months ago: ..You say Christians don't agree as if that in itself proves something..

Oh but it does - it proves that Christianity is like any human invented religion that's subject to schism and historical violent division. In fact, that schism was in fact one of the reasons for the birth of the United States - people of different Christian sects wished to escape the persecution of European Christian State Churches and a secular state was put in place to ensure no one religion or sect would have the power to trample on other people's beliefs. Unfortunately from our founding to the present, there have been religious zealots wishing to rectify that and replace the United States Constitution with their religion.

….But then you don't even concede and give credit where it is due, that not all Christians see Jesus as God, instead you go by the assumption that Jesus thought himself to be God because it is convenient to your argument…

I'm not assuming what Jesus thought but the Bible writers were fairly intent on depicting Jesus as God and I think Huey summed up the position that large sects of Christians believe. As I pointed out though, the Bible writers were not consistent and as indicative of human enterprise, subject to errors and mistakes.

However, debating whether or not Jesus was God or merely an extension is like debating whether or not crop circles came from the UFOs or from mother Earth herself. The answer of course is neither choice. Jesus was a man that died like everybody else and crop circles were constructed by human beings - there is no evidence to suggest otherwise.

…It doesn't really mater that you bring up the Jehovah witnesses, as if Huey is going to agree with you that he doesn't like them….

I didn't bring them up - Huey brought them up and I asked him a question about them vice your beliefs. The fact that evangelical Christan label Jehovah's Witnesses as a false cult is a fact and not my opinion. Of course evangelicals calling the Jehovah's Witnesses a cult is the pot calling the kettle black.

…Believing that you are the product of an evolutionary process gets you through the day. Doesn't it? It doesn't?…

You're wound up tight, aren't you but I've said multiple times before, I'm not an Atheist and I believe they are just as irrational as religionists who claim to know all about God. An Atheist can no more disprove God than a theist can prove his God and to quote the rational Deist who wrote the Age of Reason in 1794 - Thomas Paine,

"The universe is composed of matter, and, as a system is sustained by motion…It is because motion is not a property of matter, that perpetual motion is an impossibility in the hand of every being but that of the Creator of motion. When the pretenders to atheism can produce perpetual motion, and not till then, that they may expect to be credited."

The Atheist is a person who essentially believes in the physics busting canard of perpetual motion machines at the level of our Universe. But does spitting out the bitter seeds of Atheism mean that we should instead swallow the maggot infested watermelons of revealed religion? Not a chance if you're rational.
24 months ago: 1) Christianity is a human endeavor Mark. What did you think Christians think otherwise? Ever herd the term, body of believers? Christians disagreeing simply reinforces our need for a savior. You are proving our point dear!

2) You are assuming. You certainly are not conceding that Huey is right. In fact you are being critical of his belief.

3) You deciding the result of our argument is like a homosexual deciding how good a straight couples sex was to that couple! Ménage à trois anyone?

4) You said, "BTW, most evangelicals brand the Jehovah's Witnesses as…" That is called bringing them up.

5) I didn't call you an atheist. In fact I said you are searching for hope. Do you not read complete sentences dude?

6) Bottom line is you are critical because you've been hurt. People attack when they are backed into a corner. Here is the thing. Nobody at least not me is trying to convince you. I simply find no hope in belittling the faith of others! If a maggot infested watermelon gets you through your day Mark then I respect that. When you find hope you too will stop being so critical.
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
24 months ago: ..Christians disagreeing simply reinforces our need for a savior. You are proving our point dear!..

If that's your logic sweet cakes, than all religions are right since they have disagreement in common and why should you presume non-Christians religions need YOUR savior or are you saying those religions are just as valid as your religion?

...You deciding the result of our argument is like a homosexual deciding how good a straight couples sex was to that couple!...

Does a doctor have to be obese to treat a fat person or have cancer to treat the effects of cancer? Could a bisexual decide how good straight sex was?

...You said, "BTW, most evangelicals brand the Jehovah's Witnesses as…" That is called bringing them up...

No, Huey brought them up when he said to you, "I have had Jehovah's Witnesses dance around them before. Now it's your turn." and I asked a question about it.

...I didn't call you an atheist...

That's correct but you're quibbling - you implied I was an Atheist by saying, "Believing that you are the product of an evolutionary process gets you through the day. Doesn't it? It doesn't?"

...Bottom line is you are critical because you've been hurt...

Oh, a shrink too or rather a huckster playing mind games...

...Nobody at least not me is trying to convince you...

Oh no, you're not trying to convince; now what did you write to start this rant off? To quote you,

"I recently read a comment from a fellow ranter who expressed confusion as to the nature of Jesus. Was Jesus God or was his Father God?"

...I simply find no hope in belittling the faith of others!..

LMAO - let's quote YOU again writing to Huey about his faith:

"Do you perhaps have guns and armament amassed in your cellar in readyment for that great and fearful day of Armageddon?...I'll tell you what...I will point out your error's one by one..."Your trinity concept is of pagan Roman origin."

So calling out your fellow Christian brother out as a gun crazed Armageddon loon with pagan beliefs about God is what? Uplifting? Dignified? Respectful?
24 months ago: It's got to be supernatural because folks like DJ and I can disagree and still be cool with each other.

We're having an congenial debate and you step in reading other folks mail and try to make it into a nasty disagreeable argument. Who or what is the author of that?

No group of people on the planet agree on anything 100%. If they did, all that shows is that someone is not thinking.

As far as JWs, they are in theological error. They are sincere and hard working folks, but they Watchtower has many problems with regard to its specific history and denies almost every ascertainable, major bible doctrine. The folks at the door don't know that, but the organizations leadership sure does.

As far as not liking them, I love them and welcome them to my door. We talk, we discuss and I've even been to the Kingdom Hall.

Like I stated at the beginning of this talk, I knew the possibility of some non-believer either misconstruing or seeing our debate as a schism, which it is not.

It's called DIALOGUE for understanding. You are trying to make it into something that it is not and I wonder what truly motivates that.

Could it be that you love us and are attempting to help or are you attempting to stir up trouble and denigrate our faith just because you don't like or have an appreciation for it?
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
24 months ago: ...No group of people on the planet agree on anything 100%. If they did, all that shows is that someone is not thinking...

*TWEET* *TWEET*
24 months ago: @ Mark
I've been telling you honey bottoms that humans need religion. I'm certain it's mine and Huey that it is his. You are the only one squabbling that we don't! If you thought you had the key to eternal life would you keep it to yourself? Don't start from the premise that everybody is wrong except you. Start from the premise that everybody could be right and then start subtracting. Once you have eliminated the impossible everything else is possible!

So Dr. Mark, you are not a fat bisexual doctor with cancer? Just kidding! I wouldn't want a fat doctor giving me counseling on weight loss nor would I want a doctor who smokes treating me. A bisexual would only be right half of the time about how good straight sex is.

Huey didn't bring up Jehovah Witnesses to you though did he? He brought it up to me because he thinks we share the same view point. Your point is mute since you not only discount Jesus divinity but God's divinity as well.

Who is quibbling? Not me! I'm merely using one of your core beliefs, evolution to determine if it does or does not bring you comfort. I think it doesn't! You change the subject to Atheism. I know your not an Atheist because Siempre Solo once called you on it buy saying to you that if you were, you would not be so concerned with what so called religious people think. In fact I believe Siempre called you a disgruntled Seventh Day Adventist. Are you?

Hey! If you can be a doctor then I can be a shrink. It's not as if I am charging you a fee. Rant Rave is still free!

I suppose you are not convinced by my mock tirade aimed at Huey? Huey wasn't either but at least he has thicker skin than you! But if you must know, that first line is partly in reference to the other rant I wrote:
http://www.rantrave.com/Rant/What-Hapens...

It is also partly a challenge to debate. Whatever though because you wont believe me. You should however LYAO because it does sound funny the more you say it. Here try it, "So calling out your fellow Christian brother out as a gun crazed Armageddon loon with pagan beliefs about God is what? Uplifting? Dignified? Respectful?"
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
24 months ago: ..I've been telling you honey bottoms that humans need religion..

Hey Sweetie Pie, it's honey bunch not honey bottoms. Now if you want to widen the definition of religion to include philosophies that concern religion, yes I'll agree and frankly, I have no problem with somebody's religion or pseudo-religious philosophy until the try to make it my business or other people's business. In that case, it's fair to look under the hood and kick the proverbial tires, especially if they claim it's the only true religion, they condemn other religions as false, or attempt to impose their religion on other people through political enterprise.

Does that mean they don't have the right to be all of the above. Of course and we all are to some extent (we are tend to want to push our particular beliefs), including myself but such claims are subject to scrutiny and criticism. There's no sacred cows.

..Your point is mute since you not only discount Jesus divinity but God's divinity as well...

No, I discount any religion's attempt to define God in terms of human revelation. It's nothing but fantastical speculation since they are unable to prove it and critical analysis of religions often results in exposure of errors such as with allegedly God inspired religious texts.
24 months ago: Huey,

As usual you present yourself as the gentleman I'm sure you are in person. I tried to point those same things out to him but I'm not as eloquent, refined or most importantly, to the point. I think he gets it though that our interaction is theological and respectful at its core. I don't think however that he is at peace with his own beliefs. And I too wonder why? Perhaps he is in search of something more meaningful.
24 months ago: "our interaction is theological and respectful at its core."

Yes sir. And it seems that for whatever reason he can't stand it.

We were poking at each other and having fun. But we were not over-the-top insulting, condescending or judgemental in the least.

No negative vibes whatsoever as far as I am concerned.

I guess that kind of unity amongst Christians bothers or even outright scares some folks.

24 months ago: Like I pointed out earlier Huey. You demonstrate considerable more eloquence than I do when you write. My comments come out sounding crass and combative sometimes. But that is part of my style. When I write here on RantRave it is to have fun and spicy commentary is part of that fun. You are right that our discussion was friendly and intellectual. I've had many of them with fellow church members who don't see things like I do. It is what Christians do when we care about what we believe. I don't think Mark doesn't get this. I think he was probably hurt by someone religious in his past and thinks it stems from that persons religion. Christians tend to walk and talk in cliques which makes outsiders looking to come in a bit put off. Mark's combative approach at joining our amicable debate might be his way of maintaining his edge. If so I welcome it because I enjoy sparring.
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
24 months ago: So after this interesting debate and circling of the wagons, the take-away here is that doesn't matter whether one thinks Jesus is God or not as long as they believe in Jesus; it's a minor point that doesn't make a difference in terms of being a Christian or not.

So the question is why have a public debate over trivial theological matters that don't have import related to being a Christian? Of course such a notion would not sit well with vast tracts of fundamentalists who believe that the deity of Jesus Christ is one of the cornerstones of Christianity and believe that those deny of Jesus are not Christians at all. But as Huey noted, not everybody agrees on everything and I think Huey is more tolerant than fundamentalists who condemn people over insignificant matters.

But would this umbrella of tolerance fall the Islamic religion which also believes in Jesus? To quote the Koran:

Remember) when the angels said, "O Mary, God gives you good news of a word from Him (God), whose name is the Messiah Jesus, son of Mary, revered in this world and the Hereafter, and one of those brought near (to God).  He will speak to the people from his cradle and as a man, and he is of the righteous." She said, "My Lord, how can I have a child when no mortal has touched me?" He said, "So (it will be).  God creates what He wills.  If He decrees a thing, He says to it only, 'Be!' and it is."  (Quran, 3:45-47)
24 months ago: Mark,

Why does it matter if you get the wrong Jesus? Why can't we just believe in Jesus even if we only believe he is a good man? He hasn't left that option open! Jesus claimed ALL AUTHORITY... either that is a lie or truth.

Jesus said... "I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I Am you will die in your sins." (John 8:24)

Jesus said... "For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect." (Matthew 24:24)

"For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Such a one is the deceiver and the Antichrist." (2 John 1:7)
24 months ago: Mark, I think you already know the answer to how important Jesus is to the removal of sin from a degenerate human soul, but I don't think that is what you mean to ask. What you really want to know is how can we agree to disagree after all that argument? Right? We can and do because each one of us is convinced in the sincerity of our faith. The message of the Gospel is simple, God is Love and in Jesus there is salvation and in that both Huey and I adamantly agree but Muslims don't agree with that! In fact to Muslims Jesus is just a prophet. They neither see him as the son of God or as God's express image, which once again Huey and I both sincerely do. To Muslims Jesus is a minor prophet whose main purpose was to announce the advent of Mohamed. Not at all the same as Christianity but then again you already knew that. Didn't you!
24 months ago: I guess I should also address if the Nature of Jesus is relevant to the plan of Salvation. To that I would respond like this. We humans are in spiritual darkness. We don't know the difference between a pile of cow dung and the direct word of God. Which is why as far as I am concerned it doesn't really matter at first. I know that in the big picture it must play a crucial role but not until I can fully understand it will it truly matter.
24 months ago: None of us on here are "sweetness and light" all the time. I know I've had my moments in the past and have actually apologized to folks.

That being said we can still have fun and even throw barbs without being disparaging or intentionally mean spirited.

MB - The deity of Christ is not a small matter. That's why I was not going to debate it at first. I did not wan to be involved in a discourse that could easily degenerate into a name calling contest or get trivialized depending on who decides to join in. The Lord would get no glory from that at all.

Based on what I see regarding DJ's overall understanding of the atonement and how he applies it to his life specifically, I'm not willing to break fellowship or write him off as some total heretic. Simple.

I know where I stand on the issue and I've studied it for years. I was one who did not see or understand it at first either. Years of intense study, prayer, and living in my day to day walk has changed that understanding to where I am today.

If any others who name the Name of Christ are not there, all I really can do is share what I know and leave it there.
24 months ago: Huey you are doing great!

IF someone doesn't have Jesus as LORD AND GOD they don't have Jesus!

Mark...

This is not a case of Christians disagreeing... it is a case of DJ presenting a non-biblical Jesus...and Huey doing a fine job of pointing it out !:]

"For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace." (Isaiah 9:6)

God said "...They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son." (Zechariah 12:10)

"No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also." (1 John 2:23)

Read More...
http://rantrave.com/Rave/Trinity-In-Ques...
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
24 months ago: ...IF someone doesn't have Jesus as LORD AND GOD they don't have Jesus!
...This is not a case of Christians disagreeing... it is a case of DJ presenting a non-biblical Jesus...

Truthbarry, you have my respect for being refreshingly frank here; no beating around the bush and sugar coating critical differences with parsed diplomatic dissimulation. Coincidentally since you mentioned your previous post, Edward Lee also wrote a post to defend the Trinity and I wrote two responses that didn't get an answer:

http://www.rantrave.com/Rave/The-Trinity...
24 months ago: "no beating around the bush and sugar coating critical differences with parsed diplomatic dissimulation."

Love it.

BTW - I may be diplomatic, but I have not beat around the bush, I have not candy coated anything, nor am I attempting to deceive or mislead anyone.

I guess your conundrum is that, as a Christian I don't fit your mold.

Apparently I don't write off and condemn folks as easily as you would or like you think I should.
24 months ago: Quoting scriptures to Mark, TB will not convince him. Mark sees Christianity as a barbaric religion and he sees any believers as total or partial loons and incoherent. What you have done is just confirm to him and others that there is a dominant backing to the evangelical viewpoint regardless of what the traditional non Trinitarian and very much biblical) view point was.

Besides as I demonstrated to Huey the scriptures that Trinitarians quote as proof text of Jesus divinity demonstrate his equality to God not his Godhood. The best way to explain this seeming contradiction is that Jesus proceeds from God much like your breath and word proceeds from you. This is how John describes it and it is this interpretation that makes the most sense.

But lest you think that scripture doesn't make a distinction between Jesus and God. Jesus himself said in John 14:1&2 "Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions…" Jesus is clear in this Text that his Father is God and that he is his trustworthy representative! Notice he doesn't say, "You believe in God well I and my Father are him" or "You believe in God, well I am him"

The Trinitarian teaching of God is simply not biblical and you and all the other trinity believers are just afraid of admitting such a big biblical blunder. Don't be so proud. Humble yourself and accept Jesus as God's perfect gift to humanity, a full and unblemished image of himself to learn and partake of.
24 months ago: According to the Prophet Isaiah - God created the universe. He did it by Himself. There was no co-creator.

Gospel John the first chapter and Colossians the first chapter as well as the Book of Hebrews declares Christ as the Creator.

How is that?

I would like to see MB's response and DJ's. I am sure the responses will be radically different and quite entertaining.

When I was a kid I liked to play hopscotch too.
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
24 months ago: Huey, do you agree or not agree with the TB statements?

..IF someone doesn't have Jesus as LORD AND GOD they don't have Jesus!..

...it is a case of DJ presenting a non-biblical Jesus...

...Gospel John the first chapter and Colossians the first chapter as well as the Book of Hebrews declares Christ as the Creator...I would like to see MB's response and DJ's...

To quote myself,

"I'm not assuming what Jesus thought but the Bible writers were fairly intent on depicting Jesus as God and I think Huey summed up the position that large sects of Christians believe. As I pointed out though, the Bible writers were not consistent and as indicative of human enterprise, subject to errors and mistakes."
24 months ago: My bad. With all the other stuff floating around I had not keyed in on that statement even though I kinda knew that's where you would go.

As far as TB's statements, not every believer in Jesus recognizes Him as God. I did not at first either.

What is even more paramount is believing that Jesus is the CHRIST and that His blood and His blood alone atones for our sins. The acknowledgement that we are no longer our own and that He is our Lord seals it.

That being said, I believe anyone who has received Jesus as Christ and Lord who sincrerely studies the scriptures for any significant lenght of time will come to more fully undsertand Who in fact their Savior is.
24 months ago: Mark,

To be fair... many come to saving faith without believing everything correctly... but IF we are students of God'd Word we soon will have all things in common. Even those who were apostles were rebuked for teaching the wrong thing...

Peter (on the issue of circumcision by Paul):
"But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly wrong." Galatians 2:11

Appolos:
"He began to speak boldly in the synagogue, but when Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they took him and explained to him the way of God more accurately." Acts 18:26

...Even Jesus called Peter... Satan for not having God's plan in mind... so it is not a contradiction in the faith of the believers... the Word doesn't change... only our understanding and agreement with God's unchanging plan and promises. The reason we have so many churches is that we gravitate to those teachings we like... and away from those we don't... or simply that we are maturing and need time to grow in the instruction of the Lord.

"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." 2 Timothy 2:15

...the problem also can be that they are not Born Again and cannot understand spiritual things:

"The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned." 1 Corinthians 2:14
24 months ago: The Jehovah Witnesses refer to Jesus as God's first Creation a higher form of being or as you put it "a god". THERE IS NO BIBLICAL EVIDENCE FOR THIS! I have not said nor would I ever support such a preposterous teaching. I've already responded to this on more than one occasion. Perhaps you have just glossed over it. Jesus is the word of Life. Jesus is God's perfect image made flesh! He is an eternal part of God the Father. A spiritual extension of God himself and as such a part of God and not God. Simply put, "My voice is part of me. It is not me." When you hear my voice it is I who speak not a separate entity called My Voice. It is God's breath that willed life into lifeless clay. It is God's voice that spoke the universe into existence. You and I call God's breath and voice Jesus. God calls him son.
18 months ago: He was alone. God spoke everything into existence. His speech is alive. God calls it his word. We call it God's son
24 months ago: "If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved." Romans 10:9-10

"There is one Lord, one faith, one baptism," Ephesians 4:5

Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!" John 20:28


"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached to the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory." 1 Timothy 3:16
24 months ago: IF one contends that Jesus is "a" god... like the JW's do, saying that Jesus is Michael the Arch angel...and is just "a god" not THE God. The Old Testament scriptures are the very foundation to describing and understanding Christ... they are in fact the very scriptures that need to be fulfilled... presenting who Jesus is. Scriptures as in the book of Isaiah, God states clearly that He is the only God, and there is none beside, before or after Him...

"You are My witnesses," declares the LORD, "and My servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe Me and understand that I am He. Before Me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after Me." Isaiah 43:10

"Fear not, nor be afraid; have I not told you from of old and declared it? And you are My witnesses! Is there a God besides Me? There is no Rock; I know not any." Isaiah 44:8

...In Hosea God says He is the only Savior... Yet in the New Testament we have everyone calling Him the ONLY Savior...

"But I am the LORD your God from the land of Egypt; you know no God but me, and besides me there is no Savior." Hosea 13:4

...the Angels declared AT the birth of Jesus Christ that HE was the Savior...

"For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord." Luke 2:11

"Declare and present your case; let them take counsel together! Who told this long ago? Who declared it of old? Was it not I, the LORD? And there is no other god besides Me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none besides Me." Isaiah 45:21
24 months ago: The thing is God is not a man... and He had to humble Himself to take on our form, so He did it as a child born of a virgin... a child who's parents were Mary and God.... the "son of man" and "the son of God" ...the apostle John said it this way...

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made....14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1:1-3, 14

...here Jesus is called the Word, the Light, Creator, and "Son who came from the Father" ...Jesus calls the "Father" God ...and the "Father" calls the Son God too...

But of the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom." Hebrews 1:8
24 months ago: As a precursor to Prophesy being fulfilled God Himself indicates His "duality" if you will, when He created man in His image...

"Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." 27God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them." Genesis 1:26

...the greatest mystery is that God became flesh... so man could become Spirit!

"So it is written: "The first man Adam (Adam) became a living being"; the last Adam (Jesus), a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man (Adam) was of the dust of the earth; the second man (Jesus) is of heaven. 48 As was the earthly man (Adam), so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man (Jesus), so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man (Adam), so shall we bear the image of the heavenly man (Jesus)." 1 Corinthians 15:45-49

...See the great depth of the plan of God? He became part of man's family, so that we could be part of God's family!
24 months ago: TB Said: God Himself indicates His "duality" if you will, when He created man in His image, "Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness…"

My Response: I've got no problem with God referring to himself as Us because he can be everywhere at the same time. That is definitely plurality. It is how he operates. I often find myself telling my hands, "You do this…" while I tell my legs, "You do that…" If I were God then you might say that my legs and hands and me are three persons in one Godhead but you would be wrong. They are living extensions of me, the one and only! They are a part of me; it's true but in no way are they me.

TB, Do you realize that 1 Corinthians 15:45-49 is referring to the difference between the moral and immoral, between the holy and sinful, between the corrupt and incorrupt ? Man is sinful, vile and corrupt. Jesus is sinless and undefiled.

The image of God has to be imprinted in our minds and actions in place of our corrupted image. And who pray tell is the image of God? None other but Gods son, Jesus.
24 months ago: DJ,

Plurality... "The state or fact of being plural"

Duality... "A dual state or quality...symmetry" ...duality describes what God has expressed in His Word about His nature and Presence... but I think you are seeing more how God has revealed Himself... like you said...

"I often find myself telling my hands, "You do this…" while I tell my legs, "You do that…" If I were God then you might say that my legs and hands and me are three persons in one Godhead but you would be wrong."

I agree! IF IF IF I said that those "arms and legs...etc were "three persons" I would be wrong.... BUT I DIDN'T. I believe as you asserted that GOD responds to His members as you might... Jesus is the Word of the Lord, and the "Arm of the LORD"...read one of the greatest chapters in the Bible...

Who has believed our message
and to whom has the ARM OF THE LORD been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by mankind,
a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.

4 Surely he took up our pain
and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
stricken by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to our own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all...."
24 months ago: Sorry the above ref was Isaiah 53.
24 months ago: One more addendum is that TB seems to be implying that the truth of Jesus nature can be ascertained by a popularity vote. The more that believe he is God seals it that he is. It doesn't matter how many people say something it doesn't make it true.
24 months ago: It's not a matter of a popularity vote. He is Who He is. Whether we fully grasp it or not, understand it or not, like it or not. What seals it is that the Word of God declares it. It's no blunder.

It's quite impossible to read the entire Gospel of John, understand it and not see Who Jesus is. The Apostle Paul sure had no misunderstanding, either.

DJ - You have a right to believe as you do, I'm not going to down you for it. All due respect however, your understanding though deep, falls short of the full revelation of Who our Savior is.
24 months ago: DJ, here is a few references that describe Jesus as God and His revelation...

Adam, the Last (1 Cor. 15:45)

Advocate (1 Jn. 2:1)

All & in All (Col. 3:11)

Almighty (Rev. 1:8)

Altogether Lovely One (Song of Sol. 5:16)

Amen (Rev. 3:14)

Anchor (Heb. 6:19)

Ancient of Days (Dan. 7:9-11 with Rev. 1:13-16)

Angel [of the Lord] (Gen. 16:9-14; Gen. 48:16)

Anointed, His (Ps. 2:2). See also Messiah.

Apostle (Heb. 3:1)

Arm of the Lord (Isa. 53:1)

Alpha & Omega (Rev. 1:8; 21:6)

Author (Heb. 12:2)

Balm of Gilead (Jer. 8:22)

Beginning (Col. 1:18)

Begotten (One and Only – John 3:16)

Beloved (Eph. 1:6)

Bishop of your souls (1 Pet. 2:25)

Blessed and only Potentate (1 Tim. 6:15)

Branch (Isa. 11:1; Jer. 23:5; Zech. 3:8; 6:12; Rev. 11:1)

Bread (John 6:32-33; 6:35)

Bridegroom (Mt. 9:15; Jn. 3:29; Rev. 21:9)

Bright & Morning Star, see Star.

Brightness of His (God's) glory (Heb. 1:3)

Captain of their salvation (Heb. 2:12; Josh. 5:4)

Carpenter['s son] (Mt. 13:55; Mk. 6:3)

Chief[est among ten thousand] Song of Sol. 5:10)

Child, [the young] (Isa. 9:6; Mt. 2:8-21)

Chosen of God (Lk. 23:35)

Christ (Mt. 1:17; Mk. 8:29; Jn. 1:41; Rom. 1:16; 1 Cor. 1:23)

Comforter (Isa. 61:2; Jn. 14:16)

Commander (Isa. 55:4)

Consolation of Israel (Lk. 2:25)

Corn of Wheat (Jn. 12:24)

Cornerstone (Eph. 2:20; see also Isa. 28:16)

Counsellor (Isa. 9:6; Isa. 40:13)

Covert (Isa. 32:2)

Creator of all things (Col. 1:16)

Daysman (Job 9:33)

Dayspring from on high (Lk. 1:78)

Day Star (2 Pet. 1:19). See also Bright & Morning Star.

Deliverer (Rom. 11:26)

Desire of all nations (Hag. 2:7)

Door [of the sheepfold] (Jn. 10:7, 9)

Emmanuel (Mt. 1:23; see also Isa. 7:14; 8:8)

End, see Beginning & the End. End of the Law (Rom 10:4)

Express image of His (God's) person (Heb. 1:3)
24 months ago: DJ, here is a few more references that describe Jesus as God and His revelation...

Faithful Witness (Rev. 1:5; 3:14; 19:11)

Faithful & True (Rev. 19:11)

Father of Eternity (Isa. 9:6)

Fellow of God (Zech. 13:7)

First & the Last (Rev. 1:17)

First begotten of the dead (Rev. 1:5)

Firstborn Firstfruits [of them that slept] (1 Cor. 15:20, 23)

Foundation (Isa. 28:16; 1 Cor. 3:11)

Fountain (Jer. 2:13; Zech. 13:1)

Forerunner (Heb. 6:20)

Friend of sinners (Mt. 11:19; Lk. 7:34)

Fulness of the Godhead (Col. 2:9)

Gift of God (Jn. 4:10; 2 Cor. 9:15)

Glory of God (Isa. 60:1)

God (Jn. 1:1; Mt. 1:23; Rom. 9:5; 1 Tim. 3:16; Heb. 1:8)

Good Master (Mt. 19:16)

Governor (Mt. 2:6)

Great High Priest (Heb. 4:14)

Guide (Ps. 48:14)

Head (even Christ) (Eph. 4:15)

Heir of all things (Heb. 1:2)

Helper (Heb. 13:6)

Hiding Place (Isa. 32:2)

High Priest (Heb. 3:1; 7:1)

Holy Child (Acts 4:30)

Holy One [& the Just] (Acts 2:27; 3:14)

Hope of Israel (Jer. 17:3)

Horn of salvation (Ps. 18:2; Lk. 1:69)

I AM (Jn. 8:24, 58)

Image of [the invisible] God (2 Cor. 4:4; Col. 1:15)

Intercessor (Heb. 7:25)

Jehovah (Isa. 26:4; 40:3)

Jesus (Mt. 1:21)

Judge (Micah 5:1; Acts 10:42)

Just One (Acts 7:52)

King (Zech. 14:16)

Kinsman (Ruth 2:14)

Lamb [of God] (Jn. 1:29, 36; 1 Pet 1:19; Rev. 5:6, 12; 7:17)

Last, see First. (Rev. 22:13)

Lawgiver (Isa. 33:22)

Life (1 Jn. 1:2)

Light (Jn. 12:35)

Lion of the tribe of Judah (Rev. 5:5)

Lord [& Saviour] (1 Cor. 12:3; 2 Pet. 1:11), see also Master.

Man (Jn. 19:5; Acts 17:31; 1 Tim. 2:5). See also Son of Man.

Master (Mt. 8:19)

Mediator (1 Tim. 2:5)

Merciful High Priest (Heb. 2:17)

Mercy Seat (Rom. 3:24-25)

Messiah (Dan. 9:25; Jn. 1:41; 4:25)

Mighty God (Isa. 9:6; 63:1)

Minister of the Sanctuary (Heb. 8:2)
24 months ago: DJ, here is a few more references yet that describe Jesus as God and His revelation...

Nazarene (Mk. 1:24)

Nobleman (Lk. 19:12)

Offering (Eph. 5:2; Heb. 10:10)

Offspring of David (Rev. 22:16). See also Root.

Ointment poured forth (Song of Sol. 1:3)

Omega. See Alpha & Omega.

One and Only Son, see Son. (John 3:16)

Passover (1 Cor. 5:7)

Peace, our (Eph. 2:14)

Physician (Mt. 9:12; Lk. 4:23)

Plant of Renown (Ezek. 34:29)

Potentate, Blessed and only, see Blessed Prince [& a Saviour] (Acts 3:15; 5:31)

Prophet (Acts 3:22-23)

Propitiation (1 Jn. 2:2; 4:10)

Power of God (1 Cor. 1:24)

Priest (Heb. 4:14)

Quickening (life-giving) Spirit (1 Cor. 15:45)

Rabbi (Jn. 3:2; Mt. 26:25; Jn. 20:16)

Ransom (1 Tim. 2:6)

Redeemer, Redemption (Isa. 59:20; 60:16; 1 Cor. 1:30)

Refuge (Isa. 25:4)

Resurrection & the Life (Jn. 11:25)

Righteousness (Jer. 23:6; 33:16; 1 Cor. 1:30)

Rock [of offence] (Deut. 32:15; 1 Cor. 10:4; Rom. 9:33; 1 Pet. 2:8)

Rod (Isa. 11:1)

Root (Rev. 22:16)

Rose of Sharon (Song of Sol. 2:1)

Sacrifice (Eph. 5:2)

Same, the (Heb. 1:12)

Sanctification (1 Cor. 1:30)

Saviour [of the world] (Lk. 1:47; 2:11; 1 Jn. 4:14)

Second Man, see Man.

Seed of Abraham (Gal. 3:16, 19)

Seed Servant (Isa. 42:1; 49:5-7; Mt. 12:18)

Shadow of a great Rock (Isa. 32:2)

Shepherd ( 1 Peter 5:4)

Shiloh (Gen. 49:10)

Son (Isa. 9:6; 1 Jn. 4:14)

Sower (Mt. 13:37)

Star (Num. 24:17)

Stone (Psalm 118:22)

Sun of Righteousness (Mal. 4:2)

Surety (Heb. 7:22)

Teacher (Mt. 26:18; Jn. 3:2; 11:28). See also Master.

Tender Plant (Isa. 53:2)

Testator (Heb. 9:15-17)

True Bread, see Bread.

Truth (Jn. 14:6)

Vine (Jn. 15:1, 5)

Way (Jn. 14:6)

Wisdom [of God] (1 Cor. 1:24, 30)

Wonderful (Isa. 9:6)

Word (Jn. 1:1)

....I don't think we need a "popular vote" to see how GOD has humbly and generously revealed himself to man.
24 months ago: Wow! You guys have either really gone of the deep end or are just copying information without analyzing it first.
TB: Your long list of Bible Text prove different things if read in context but I assure you that none of them prove that one part of God is his whole. Another point that I've noticed from your writing is that you don't seem to defend the Trinity doctrine, just Jesus being God. Do you or don't you believe in a trinity?

HN: My analysis of Jesus nature is not deep it is taken directly from 1 john 1-3 and John 1. The description of Jesus as a separate entity that is actually the same entity is an oxymoron. It is a contradiction. The Bible clearly states that Jesus is a part of God. As God reveals himself to humanity we will see different aspectsd of him. They are all part of the whole. Jesus is the sacrifice for sin. The Father isn't! Jesus pleads for us before the father as our intercessor. The Father doesn't.
24 months ago: DJ,

By my long list it shows that there is more to Jesus Christ than most understand... most of all those things are in ref to only God himself... and as to my belief of the "Trinity" the word is not in the Bible, so we can only go by what the Word of God states. There are a few scriptures that nail it... however we must understand that God is Spirit as Jesus said... not divided and not constrained to human physics.
http://rantrave.com/Rave/Trinity-In-Ques...

Jesus will be called Everlasting Father... when is that going to happen if He is only the Son? Jesus is also going to be called Counselor ...a name reserved for the Holy Spirit, when is that going to happen? Clearly the scriptures do not divide God up into neat packages... that is why "water" is used as an illustration describing what we know about the so-called Trinity... Water is water no matter if it is a liquid, solid or gas... God is God no matter if He is Father, Son or Holy Spirit... all have specific manifestations and ministries according to the Law... yet all are one in being and nature, essence and entity.

"For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. (Isaiah 9:6)

Jesus is not a part of God... He is the manifestation of God and the revelation of God to mankind... "the arm of the Lord... or Word". YOU are correct that the ministry of God as the Son is different than that of The Father...etc. One thing is certain that Jesus is God Almighty... and no less than the Father or the Spirit... that He Himself is also called in Isaiah 9:6.... but to really tweak your brain look at Acts 20:28...

Take care of yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost has made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he has purchased with his own blood. (Acts 20:28)

...ask yourself when did the Holy Spirit purchase anything with His own blood? or...

"And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. (Zechariah 12:10)

...as the Father God speaking, when did we look upon Him (the Father) when He was pierced? As we can see God is not divided... and that is why...

"...for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God." (Romans 14:10-11)
24 months ago: Of course you would quote Isaiah 9:6 because it seems to say what you want it to say, but did you read the whole chapter. It is not talking about Jesus but about Israel and the injustices it is going through. It is in this back drop that the prophet reveals God's plan for the government that will rule over the Kingdom whom David held sway over. Read Isaiah 9: 7 and it will say the following, "Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this."
Why is it relevant that this future government be ruled by someone with the attributes listed in the previous verse? Because verse 7 says the government has to be established with judgment and justice forever! God is the author of this government and as you said Jesus is his arm or as I've repeatedly said Jesus is his voice or the operative force of God. The verse is clear that God is the force behind this new everlasting government.
24 months ago: Whose law did we transgress? That is whom we have offended and hurt! Who forgave us and accepted us back into his fold? It is the same whom gave us his Law. The power of God to reach us is infinite. You are simply making the same mistake that polytheism has made and that is to make different deities out of God's manifested powers! God is one. Not three!
24 months ago: "The Bible clearly states that Jesus is a part of God"

Nah. The Bible clearly states "The Word was God." That's where you miss it.

I can't see how you can miss that unless it's just something you won't or don't want to accept.

But that is your issue, not mine.
24 months ago: That's where you leave it Huey! Isn't it? "The Word was God" . Scripture says to study but you just read and that settles it! Huh? Well, I dig into the meat of the subject and this meat also says that the word was with God. In fact, "It" is called "The Word" and you don't want to know why?

Here, let me elaborate for you once again for the umpteenth time. You're word is you! It is with you! It is a part of you! It goes ahead of you! It is there in your place. It represents you!

Yet, it does not exist without you! Jesus is the Word of God!
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24 months ago: It's really getting pointless to continue this. Your critical faculties have apparently been compromised in this area and I'm not the one to continue to drag out this argument ad infinitum.

This is quickly becoming a waste of time. Quite frankly I knew that possibility from the beginning, but I choose to humor this post anyway because it was so far fetched.

Jesus is not a part of God. He is God. John 1:1 says it plainly enough.

The Word was God. The Word is self existent and the only Being that is self-existent is God. If you can't see how that works there's nothing I can do to help you.

If John had meant to say the Word was a PART of God that is exactly what He would have said. Right?

You may not understand, you may disagree with it, but that ultimately does not change anything. God is Who He is.

You can interpret it however you like. I choose to stick with what the Bible actually and clearly says.

The one true God has revealed Himself as the eternally self-existent "I AM" The Creator of heaven and earth, and the Redeemer of mankind. Ex.3:14-15

This is exactly Who Jesus claimed to be in John 8:58. Unlike you, the Pharisees had no problem understanding Who Jesus claimed to be.

As far as meat, you're spitting skewed hermeneutical pablum. I don't see how anyone can actually honestly study the writings of Paul or more specifically the Gospel of John and come to the conclusions you have. It's utterly mystifying.

There are plenty of other scriptures I could reference other than the ones I have, but in your rebuttals you seem to always either twist, ignore or simply leap frog them.

Your position on this is interesting but it's very inaccurate and the more you expound on it the deeper the hole you dig for yourself theologically.

Maybe one day you'll get it. I did.

Best wishes.
24 months ago: Remember when I first told you these words at the beginning of the comment section Huey? "Geeze! You seem upset, almost insulted…"; well, they're coming back again. If you don't believe me because you believe you are right then you should be expressing compassion, but you don't. I wonder why? I think I struck a cord in your mind. A cord you are afraid to listen to because it rings of the truth. Could that be it? Love is patient. But it seems you have run out of patience. Don't worry bro I still love you and I won't give up on you!
24 months ago: DJ - Your good at reading into things exactly what you want rather than what is.

The only resonating cord you've hit is helping me to remember how head strong you are (a good quality at times, I'll add).

I have nothing but compassion for you and I am very patient or I would have bailed after my first post otherwise.

As far as afraid to listen. That's a good one. You're rehashing the same error over and over.

If anything I'll bet you hesitate to re-read what I've posted because considering the weightiness of the truth presented which contradicts your understanding raises the hackles on your neck.

Every cult, and every occultic group in the world says Jesus never claimed He was God and they are all liars.

I don't believe that of you. Just keep seeking.
24 months ago: You have convinced yourself that the infinite God could bottle himself into the body of a man forever. But this doesn't make sense to you so you tell yourself that although he did this he actually didn't because he still remained as another person. Then you excuse the confusion by saying its God who can understand him? God has delivered us from sin. Sa;lvation comes from him. It is a procedure and process that comes from God and involves the use of an intermediary, that is Jesus. The scriptures all testify to it over and over. Yo7u and TB are just blinded to it because it doesn't fit your preconceptions. I didn't expect for you to understand but I am willing to give it a try. So if you decide to pick up where we left of then I'll be here!
24 months ago: Nope. Nothing preconceived about it.

You need to re-read what I've written.
24 months ago: Believe me Huey when I tell you that I've seen the same bible proof texts over and over and they don't convince me that there exists multiple persons in one being we call God or YHWH. What they demonstrate is different things. Some of the texts quoted are simply taken completely out of context. Others describe one or more aspects of God, his character or attributes. This is why I say you and TB have preconceptions. That is the only way I can explain how you could see a trinity or multiple people in so many verses. You are looking for that in these texts.

Another point I don't think I made clear is that I acknowledge the multiplicity of God. I can see how he transcends time and can exist simultaneously in the past present and future of every realm of possibility. I can see how he can be simultaneously in one and all life forms. An all powerful God can do this. What I fail to see is the divisions that Trinitarians make in him. Three persons means divisions and The bible clearly teaches that there is no divisions in God. The bible says, "Hear Oh Israel, The Lord thy God is one." You see? No divisions! Jesus is and will always be an eternal extension and full manifestation of the Creators full being. He is the complete God in veiled human flesh.
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24 months ago: Balderdash.

You are not paying attention to what I've already written. Have you re-read my responses as I requested?

It's obvious to me that you are missing it because your critical faculties are apparently on auto pilot. Your discernment regarding the truth I've presented has confused you to the point of saying I have preconceived ideas.

This simply shows that you really are not paying attention and can't grasp my understanding because I've already stated that I did not see the revelation of Jesus as God when I first came to Him. So there is nothing preconceived about it. OK? Your stating that otherwise only helps to destroy your own point.

Also, you have not shown where I've taken even one scripture I've referenced out of context. Not only that you have not DIRECTLY addressed ANY of them. That substantiates the weakness of your error ridden argument.

"He is the complete God in veiled human flesh." -- You've just directly testified to the Incarnation and you can't even see it because of YOUR preconceived ideas.

At this point, I don't think you even understand what you are posting. In fact, I believe you are making it up as you go along.

Like I said, I'll stick with the clear, undeniable teaching of the Scriptures and you can spin it like you like. That's between you and God.
24 months ago: That you claim having once denied the trinity concept does not automatically make your argument a sudden or even concrete revelation. Preconception does not say how long you've had it, just that you do. I addressed the first three text that TB: posted and I also addressed the first ones that you posted also. I suggest you go back and reread my responses because you apparently did not notice them. I even said that I would continue to address the rest as well but it seems rather pointless now since you or TB didn't even bother looking at my explanation.

This Huey is where your preconception kicks in. At some point you looked at these texts as they were presented to you, without digging into their surrounding context to see what they really meant to say and you bought into the trinity mythology. You have since that point continued to regurgitate verbatim the same false notion.

Which is why you fail to see how God singular could speak the world into existence and that this voice could be alive not only from eternity but obey its father and take flesh. The complete image of God can be perceived as nothing else but God because it is complete but you are not worshipping another person of the Godhead nor are you worshipping God's voice . The worship that is received by Jesus is all to the Glory of God.
23 months ago: Jesus is God Period.

When it comes down to it do I believe the testimony of of the OT, the testimony of Jesus, The testimony of the disciples and the testimony of the Apostle Paul, or the testimony of "Dwayne Johnson"? Bet you know my answer.

You still don't get it. OK. End of discussion.

BTW - What happened to your face?
23 months ago: God's ways are not our ways Huey. It is difficult to understand each other's reasoning let alone God's, but lets just put it this way: God made his fullness accessible to us in the flesh. We call this manifestation Jesus. However before there was the flesh that made this manifestation possible, Jesus was God's word and It made God's will manifest. It is not a separate person from God. When you call Jesus God and redirect worship that is due only to the father it is the same as idolatry.

People who fell before Jesus and worshiped God did so because they knew he was a holy vessel in which dwelt the fullness of God. They were in essence worshipping the father not the vessel made of flesh. Imagine if "Jesus" made himself manifest today. How would you know it is him? A man can't be everywhere, which is why Jesus in the flesh is not God, but God the Father, his spirit is everywhere which is why the spirit that dwells in Jesus is not only of God but God's perfect example and thus can speak in place of him. Do not be led astray by false Christ's, Huey. A man cannot be God. God can dwell in a man but a man cannot be God. There is nothing wrong with my face Huey. I'm just experimenting with different pictures.
23 months ago: All kidding aside. It is just as wrong to say Jesus is only God as to say He is only man. Jesus is the God-Man. 100% both.

He received worship on earth as He will in Heaven. He is the Alpha and Omega, the Creator of Eternity and the Mighty God. First and Last. The I AM. He is the only Savior. He is not the Father yet He is one with the Father. By His own power He raised Himself from the dead. He is the forgiver of our sins. Every knee will bow to Him. He has all authority and power in heaven and earth. In Him all the fullness of God dwells bodily. There is no other Name given by which we must be saved. He is the sole Creator of the universe. By Him all things consist and hold together.

In these last days God has indeed spoken to us by His Son, through whom He made the worlds.

This is not a false Christ. It is Who He has revealed Himself to be.

I appreciate your concern. I have the same for you, though all things being said, I consider you my brother in Christ.
23 months ago: I appreciate it Huey and I don't doubt your sincerity of faith, which is why I pass no judgment. It would be presumptuous of me to do so. Only God knows a mans walk and by faith only God will direct those steps. All the things you just ascribed to the Christ are fair to say because it is God's full manifestation that dwells in his flesh. But that force that made him the Christ made him the Creator before hand. That force is timeless and it is the fathers to manifest.

The father has chosen to manifest that force because otherwise we could not be saved. Throughout countless ages It is that force that will connect us to God. Before sin entered the human family Adam and Eve were able to see God the father as he truly is. Sin forever prevented a direct path to the Father. The Fathers Love was so great for his fallen creations that he created a human vessel for his eternal presence. We could not come to God any longer because of sin but because of God's love he came to us.

That new bridge, connection, path is who we know as Jesus. It is God's eternal presence clothed in humanity to restore humanity's way back to the Father. He is The Way back to God The Father. Ignore him as the way and you are ignoring the only salvation (way to the father) there is available. Worship the path or deny the Father worship and we are in the same problem.

Long before God's eternal presence was manifest in the flesh salvation was already accessible to our human family. This is because the force that God the Father made manifest in the flesh and called Jesus already proceeded from God the Father. The Fathers love is eternal as is his mercy and compassion. The Love that was manifest in Jesus has proceeded from God the Father since the beginning of time and so humanity because of the Fathers mercy could have access to God. Understand this one basic principle that God himself so loved the world that he himself gave his and only his only begotten son to open up salvation for whosoever chooses to believe!
18 months ago: Jesus is a man Huey. He is the son of Mary. Her blood courses through his veins. She gave birth to him and with very real pain did he part her womb. No amount of out-of-context scriptures will change that. What makes Jesus the man different from other humans is that he was fathered not by a flawed human male but instead the perfect flawless word of God inhabited the recesses of his mind. God's word is life Huey. It is alive. It is a life giving force. It is the co-habitation of the divine living word with frail human flesh that saves that flesh. It is this living power of God's word that can save us too. This is the power of salvation.
24 months ago: I am going to provide an exegeses for each and everyone of these text for you. But I've got a life so it will take more than one sitting. Here is the first three. Please read them carefully!

1 Corinthians 15:45 "And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit"

Do you believe Jesus was made? Because that is what it seems to imply. No! This verse is not saying Jesus was made and it certainly is not saying Jesus is God. It is comparing Adam as the onme who introduced sin into our DNA and Jesus who introduced healing into our DNA.

1 John 2:1 "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous"

I'm pretty sure now that you just copied this list of Bible text from some source that had them listed as proof text of Jesus being God and that you did not verify a single one. Of course Jesus is humanities advocate before God. He is our intercessor. He is the Bridge that connects humanity to God because he has made God Accessible to us through his sacrifice. But once again, no where in this text does it say that Jesus is God!

Colossians 3:11 " Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all."

Does this then imply that all humans are one person or does it mean that outward distinctions do not hinder Jesus from saving humanity from its depravity? Seriously, did you even bother to look at anyone of these text? This does not say Jesus is God! Just read it dude!
24 months ago: DJ,

Again the list is merely there to show all the ministry that God has in Christ, that could only be valid by God Himself... like the Jews said... "Who can forgive sins... but God alone?" ...the Jews knew Jesus was claiming to be God by forgiving sin... who can be a mediator between God and Man? God alone.... in human existence.
24 months ago: DJ,

You said... "The description of Jesus as a separate entity that is actually the same entity is an oxymoron. It is a contradiction."

First God is Spirit and fills everything everywhere, knows everything and is all powerful... and can be all places at once... Omnipotent, Omniscient, and Omnipresent... God is not limited to the Flesh or your understanding... regardless if you can comprehend His ability to fulfill scripture as Father Son and Holy Spirit at the same time!
24 months ago: Jesus, after showing His wounds to Thomas, after His resurrection... Thomas called Jesus Lord and God... and Jesus received both titles!

"And Thomas answered and said unto Him (Jesus), My Lord and my God." (John 20:28)
24 months ago: "Eli Eli lama sabachthani" were Jesus cries as he hung on the cross dying a horrible death. Who hung on that cross TB? Was it God? Look at Isaiah 53:10 for that answer.

Isaiah 53:10 "Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin…"

Did The Lord bruise himself or did he sacrifice a part of himself for us? According to the book of Genesis a soul is the union of God's breath and a lump of clay. Jesus is God's breath of life. This breath was made flesh. This union of Gods life breath and human flesh was the soul sacrificed at the cross. It is this soul that cried out to God, "Eli Eli lama sabachthani", "My God, My God why have you forsaken me?". It is this soul that was made an offering for human sin. It is this soul that died on the cross.

What you seem to be missing TB is that Jesus has full access to the throne of God. He is a full intermediary. He is God's perfect reflection and representative. Of course he can forgive sin. Of course he can receive worship. Of course he can create. He is the bridge between humanity and God. He received punishment for our sin. Didn't he? Yet it was not he who sinned. Yet the Bible teaches that he became one with us! He became a part of us. This is why he could take on our sin and the punishment for it. Likewise he is one with his father. He is a part of God which is why he is able to commune with God.
24 months ago: DJ,

ONLY GOD can forgive sin...

"When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralyzed man, "Son, your sins are forgiven." Now some teachers of the law were sitting there, thinking to themselves, "Why does this fellow talk like that? He's blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?" Mark 2:5-7

...the scribes and pharisees were partially right, either Jesus was blaspheming or He was GOD! As to Jesus crying out "My God, My God why have you forsaken me?" ...Jesus was quoting scripture even in death... so that they would recognize his fulfillment of that same scripture... read all of Psalm 22....

"I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels. My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death. For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet. I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me. They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture..." (Psalm 22:14-18)

...Jesus was not crying out because He was just in agony... He cried out the only thing that was in His heart, soul and Spirit... the Word of God.
22 months ago: If Jesus is God, why would he accuse himself of forsaking himself? As for quoting "scripture".... don't remember any other instances of that happening anywhere else in the book so seriously doubt it happend then either.
22 months ago: Six,

IF you read Psalm 22 you will see what I mean, it was written about 970-1000 years before Christ, and was a fulfillment of prophesy... as usual Jesus pointed out many of the scriptures that were fulfilled by His life and death...

"My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me..."
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?sea...

...furthermore if you read the Psalm in it's entirety, you will see that it describes in part crucifixion, like other Messianic prophesies do, which wasn't even used until about 400 years after these prophesies were made!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucifixion

Messianic Prophecies...
http://www.christiananswers.net/dictiona...
24 months ago: DJ,

Something to think about, the disciples were commanded...

"Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the NAME of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit..."

...and in the New Testament in obedience to that command by Jesus went and baptized in Jesus' Name. Jesus didn't say baptize in the NAMES of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit... but rather the NAME of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. AND that is what they did...

Acts 2:38, "And Peter said to them, 'Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

Acts 10:48, "And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days."

Acts 19:5, "And when they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus."

...SO what is the NAME of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit?
24 months ago: You are playing with words TB. You know it and so do I. Bob, Joe and Sue own raffles. They want you to go sell them. And so I send you to go sell these raffles in the name of Joe, Bob Sue. Why, because they only have one name each!
24 months ago: DJ,

"And the LORD will be king over all the earth. On that day the LORD will be one and his name one." (Zechariah 14:9)
24 months ago: Is God "playing" with words too?
24 months ago: No TB, just you are. Just carefully reread what you wrote.
24 months ago: DJ,

What "form" did Jesus have before He came in the flesh?

"Christ Jesus: Who, BEING in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be EQUAL with God: But made himself of no reputation, and TOOK upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the LIKENESS of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross." Philippians 2:6-8 (emphasis mine)

...Jesus who "BEING in the form of God" ...NEVER CEASED to be God, and if God had a form Jesus had it! No separation. Jesus "thought it not robbery it be EQUAL with God" ...why? Because He NEVER CEASED to be God, rather "TOOK upon" himself the LIKENESS of men" ...God is Spirit, and other translations put it He EMPTIED Himself and took on the nature of man... to be an all sufficient Savior.

"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory." 1 Timothy 3:16
24 months ago: Are we there yet?
23 months ago: You just quoted it and you don't see it? There is only one force at work here, God!
23 months ago: "Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him. Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father." (John 14:6-9)
21 months ago: jesus is the son of god and every people can got life from jesus.
23 months ago: Any one who has seen me has seen the father. I have come that you might have life and have it more abundantly. I've come to the will of my father. I have called you brethren. I go to my God and your God to my father and your father.

What part of Jesus is the full image of trhe living God.
23 months ago: There is life IN Jesus!
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21 months ago: Dwayne, since you are piggy backing, on my Rant, let me ask, is anyone of you baptized with the Holy Spirit? With the evidence of speaking in tongues ? Because without Him, you would not know the truth about the Trinity, because He is the only one that can reveal the truth.
If you say that you do not believe in the baptism, then you are not qualified to write on the subject.
18 months ago: Ed. do you hold the rod of David? Is it encrusted with green rubies? Because if you don't then you are not qualified to comment on my essay, seriously what you just wrote makes no sense. What qualifies me to write is my own prayerful study of the subject, the same thing that qualifies TB and Huey.
21 months ago: Ed,

IF you got out a bit more, you would see that Pentecostals weren't the only Christians on the planet, and that the "gift" of tongues is the easiest to fake and is practiced my many pagan religions. However the gift of tongues from God is for edification of the Christian, not necessarily the Church...

1) Speaking in Tongues is Biblical
2) Speaking in Tongues Has Requirements
3) Speaking in Tongues First Occurred on the Day of Pentecost
4) Not Everyone Has the Gift of Speaking in Tongues
5) Speaking in Tongues is Not Required for Salvation
http://www.getchristiananswers.com/artic...

...extreme Pentecostals are the opposite of extreme Baptists... one believes that "tongues" is evidence of salvation, and the other deception. I believe that the Biblical gift appropriated properly is a blessing to both Christian and Church.
21 months ago: This is why translation of words in the Bible is better than transliteration...

Baptism..
"The first method that deviated from the full-immersion method of baptism was in 250AD, until then it was preformed by all, including the Catholics by full immersion (putting under water). A man named Novation was on his death-bed and wanted to be baptized because he hadn't to that point, and feared ...unable to be immersed he had been covered by blankets and soaked by pouring water all over him. After he recovered many followed this manner of pseudo-baptism... he became a leader of "Novationists".
http://www.rantrave.com/Rave/Baptism-som...

Speaking in Tongues...
"It would be an arbitrary and strange interpretation of Scripture that would make tongues-speaking in the New Testament anything other than known languages. There is no trace of Scriptural evidence that tongues were ever heard by anyone as incoherent, incomprehensible babbling."
http://bible.org/article/speaking-tongue...
21 months ago: This is the clearest I could relate and explain the Trinity:
http://rantrave.com/Rave/Understanding-t...
Content Removed by Edward Lee
21 months ago: Truthbrary, From: http://bible.org/article/speaking-tongue...
There is no reason for anyone to speak except to converse intelligibly. The Greek word laleo means "I speak." The word is never used for mere sound or noise. Nor is it used for a mere mumbling or muttering of unintelligible gibberish. The tongues-speaking in the New Testament was in the native languages of hearing people. The supernatural phenomenon which took place at Pentecost was the exercise of a gift whereby many people from many countries, gathered at Jerusalem, heard God's message in their own language. This was indeed a miracle of God.

Edward: This is from someone that has not personalty have the Gift of tongues. With out in infilling of the Holy Spirit you do not have the power and relationship with Him, however this is what the Word says:

There are three types of Tongues:

(1) In public> The Gift of Tongues occurs when God speaks through someone or the Spirit gives the utterance which is for the edification of the church and must be interpreted either by the person in receipt of the Gift or someone else.

(2) In Private to God:> This Prayer language is used for the edification of one's self and for communicating with God without using one's intellect also for pulling down strongholds and spiritual warfare. Romans 8:26-27: In the same way, the Spirit also helps us in our weakness, for we do not know how to pray as we should. But the Spirit himself intercedes with groans too deep for words,
and the one who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, for the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to God's will.

(3) Someone who speaks in another language he does not know for the benefit of a foreigner. As in the upper-room.
21 months ago: In Paul's conclusion, 1 Corinthians 14:39, 40 he says, Therefore, brethren, covet to prophecy, and forbid NOT to speak with tongues. Let all things be done decently and in order."
21 months ago: 1Co 14:18 I thank God that I speak in strange tongues much more than any of you.
1Co 14:19 But in church worship I would rather speak five words that can be understood, in order to teach others, than speak thousands of words in strange tongues.
1Co 14:20 Do not be like children in your thinking, my friends; be children so far as evil is concerned, but be grown up in your thinking.

1Co 14:21 In the Scriptures it is written, "By means of people speaking strange languages I will speak to my people, says the Lord. I will speak through lips of foreigners, but even then my people will not listen to me."

1Co 14:22 So then, the gift of speaking in strange tongues is proof for unbelievers, not for believers, while the gift of proclaiming God's message is proof for believers, not for unbelievers.

1Co 14:23 If, then, the whole church meets together and everyone starts speaking in strange tongues---and if some ordinary people or unbelievers come in, won't they say that you are all crazy?

1Co 14:24 But if everyone is proclaiming God's message when some unbelievers or ordinary people come in, they will be convinced of their sin by what they hear. They will be judged by all they hear.

1Co 14:25 their secret thoughts will be brought into the open, and they will bow down and worship God, confessing, "Truly God is here among you!"

1Co 14:26 This is what I mean, my friends. When you meet for worship, one person has a hymn, another a teaching, another a revelation from God, another a message in strange tongues, and still another the explanation of what is said. Everything must be of help to the church.

1Co 14:27 If someone is going to speak in strange tongues, two or three at the most should speak, one after the other, and someone else must explain what is being said.

1Co 14:28 But if no one is there who can explain, then the one who speaks in strange tongues must be quiet and speak only to himself and to God.

1Co 14:29 Two or three who are given God's message should speak, while the others are to judge what they say.

1Co 14:30 But if someone sitting in the meeting receives a message from God, the one who is speaking should stop.

1Co 14:31 All of you may proclaim God's message, one by one, so that everyone will learn and be encouraged.
1Co 14:32 The gift of proclaiming God's message should be under the speaker's control,

1Co 14:33 because God does not want us to be in disorder but in harmony and peace. As in all the churches of God's people,

1Co 14:35 If they want to find out about something, they should ask their husbands at home. It is a disgraceful thing for a woman to speak in a church meeting.
1Co 14:36 Or could it be that the word of God came from you? Or are you the only ones to whom it came?

1Co 14:37 If anyone supposes he is God's messenger or has a spiritual gift, he must realize that what I am writing to you is the Lord's command.

1Co 14:38 But if he does not pay attention to this, pay no attention to him.
1Co 14:39 So then, my friends, set your heart on proclaiming God's message, but DO NOT FORBID THE SPEAKING IN TONGUES.
21 months ago: Ed,

All your scriptures are from a single chapter.... made to look like a massive amount of evidence. Fact is you have little or no evidence to support your assertions that everyone must speak in tongues... like the verses you quoted, you should take them to heart:

1Co 14:19 But in church worship I would rather speak five words that can be understood, in order to teach others, than speak thousands of words in strange tongues. 20 Do not be like children in your thinking, my friends; be children so far as evil is concerned, but be grown up in your thinking.

Again it is clear that all DO NOT speak in tongues... 1 Corinthians 12:27-31

27 Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. 28 And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues[d]? Do all interpret? 31 Now eagerly desire the greater gifts. And yet I will show you the most excellent way."
(What follows is Chapter 13 on love)
21 months ago: Everyone does not have to speak in tongues in order to get to Heaven, that is why it is a separate gift. However should you desire to be empowered to do the work of the one who died for you, the Holy Spirit I call the enabler is promised to us, why would Jesus say to His faithful believers "It is important that you go to the Upper Room and wait for the promised Holy Spirit, so that you can go into all the World with boldness and tell everyone about me?

And you will receive POWER when the Holy Spirit comes upon you.

Truthbrary, Jesus would still be in the grave if He was not raised by the power of the Holy Spirit.

It is quite evident that you do not have this gift, but how can you debate with someone who moves in the fullness of the Word of God, and has received the Holy Spirit in 1985, and my wife operates in the The Gift of Tongues and then interpreters the message.

Instead debating in an area that you have not experiences is like telling me it's impossible to approach a stranger and lead them to the Lord in minutes.

And that is what I do, and if I boast let me boast in the Lord.

The attitude you should have thank you Edward, I do want all that God has for me.
21 months ago: Ed,

You seem to think that your "gift" is a sign of your faithfulness... if indeed you have a "gift" it was "given" to you... and it would be a sign of His faithfulness. Interesting thing is, we are not judged by our "gifts" but by our fruit. And if you check out the fruit of the Spirit you won't find any mention of tongues.

"...the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law." (Galatians 5:22-23)

"...you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light, for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness, righteousness and truth" (Ephesians 5:8-9)
21 months ago: I don't understand what you are saying, it was a promised gift. which was given when I asked. It was for service, and there is fruit.

You still have not answered my question, did you receive the Holy Spirit with the evidence of Tongues? It is a a requirement for a pastor and deacon.

Please answer the question.
21 months ago: Ed,

I will answer you if you answer me.... did you receive the Holy Spirit with the evidence of known languages? Anyone can fake babble... but the day you can speak a language previously unknown to you (like Greek or Aramaic) like in Acts chapter 2... you have nothing! Paul spoke in many languages (known) ...like when he was on the road to Damascus and heard the Lord speak to him in the Hebrew tongue...

"And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?" (Acts 2:8)

"And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks." (Acts 26:14)

...so what is it Ed, a language or babble? IF it is babble, it is not evidence of anything, and even Yoga or occult practices can produce that.
21 months ago: Some Pastor you are. God is looking at you.
21 months ago: Ed,

I hope so! IN time past, and nowadays "evidence" of the Holy Spirit was shaking, trembling, rolling, falling, laughing, howling, being "drunk"... you name it... WHAT NEXT? God says it is the fruit that determines the type of tree we are from, not a circus performance, seriously. Am I here to please men or God?

"So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and inquirers or unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind? But if an unbeliever or an inquirer comes in while everyone is prophesying, they are convicted of sin and are brought under judgment by all, as the secrets of their hearts are laid bare. So they will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, "God is really among you!" (1 Corinthians 14:23-25)

How clear is that?
21 months ago: IF anything according to 1 Corinthians 14:23-25 prophesying would be the determining evidence of the Holy Spirit of God... like when God took of the Spirit of Moses and put it on the seventy chosen to help him bare his burden...

"And the LORD came down in a cloud, and spake unto him, and took of the spirit that was upon him, and gave it unto the seventy elders: and it came to pass, that, when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied, and did not cease. But there remained two of the men in the camp, the name of the one was Eldad, and the name of the other Medad: and the spirit rested upon them; and they were of them that were written, but went not out unto the tabernacle: and they prophesied in the camp." (Numbers 11:25-26)
21 months ago: Truthbrary
(1) Canada 8 days ago: Referring to you picture of "Jehovah and His Son"
...if they are both God, then we have two Gods?

(2) I will answer you if you answer me.... did you receive the Holy Spirit with the evidence of known languages? Anyone can fake babble.

THE DIFFENCE BETEEN YOU AND ME, IS THAT MY LIFE IS AN OPEN BOOK AND YOU ARE A DECEIVER.

Edward: It is quite evident that you do not believe is the Holy Trinity, and in The Gift ( Baptism) of Tongues, that is the way you judge if one belongs to a cult, like the Jehovah Witnesses.
I have investigated your church in the past and you Pasto the Head of your Church and found it to be false. I see that you have now removed it from your profile.

You can believe in whatever you want to but there are many that do not know the Word and they will be deceived, however this is one way for them to understand the scriptures, is through the debates, Truthbrary, even the charismatic Roman Catholics have and believe in the Baptism and they speak in tongues.
http://rantrave.com/Rave/Modern-day-Pent...

The information I have written on this blog, is more than sufficient for the average Christian to understand. Do you want me to post all of the information written previously about your Pastor and Church?

The Church begun with the Holy Spirit in the Upper Room in Acts, and a revival happened in the early Nineteen century when they begun a Bible of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.


1 Timothy 3:14–4:6
The Holy Spirit tells us clearly that in the last times some will turn
away from the true faith; they will follow deceptive
spirits and teachings that come from demons (4:1).aching. Stay true to what is right, and God will save you and those who hear you.
21 months ago: Ed,

You have called me a deceiver, said I had a demon etc. I don't attack you, only the teachings you assert are from the Bible, when it says the opposite. I removed a link to a online tract only to make room for a Facebook link. Ray Comfort is not my pastor, however I support their works and message. You still haven't answered about speaking in miraculous languages (tongues of the Bible)... as I said anyone can babble. As to leading anyone in a quick prayer as the work of an evangelist... we are called to disciple and baptize... long term ministry.

Why would you lead anyone in a prayer for a salvation you think they can loose anyway? You would have to lead them in another, and another... etc. God is clear that He is the author of eternal salvation!
21 months ago: When you ask: Referring to you picture of "Jehovah and His Son"
...if they are both God, then we have two Gods?

As an evangelist I have to guard that no-one is deceived by false doctrine.
If they do not want to except Salvation that's find, but let it be based on the true Word of God.

If you do not have the infilling of the Holy Spirit, if you ask the Lord, "is this this of you? and if it is, I want all that you have to give, but it has to be done in humility.

Could you give me a link to the statement of faith of your church?
21 months ago: Ed I have shared links before for you to see what I believe, but I don't mind showing you again, and what Church I am affiliated with...

Here is a link to the Southern Baptist Faith and Message, and in regards to God here is a statement that seems to sum it up...

"There is one and only one living and true God. He is an intelligent, spiritual, and personal Being, the Creator, Redeemer, Preserver, and Ruler of the universe. God is infinite in holiness and all other perfections. God is all powerful and all knowing; and His perfect knowledge extends to all things, past, present, and future, including the future decisions of His free creatures. To Him we owe the highest love, reverence, and obedience. The eternal triune God reveals Himself to us as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, with distinct personal attributes, but without division of nature, essence, or being."
http://www.sbc.net/bfm/bfm2000.asp#ii
21 months ago: There is your problem, you belong to a denomination that is only part Gospel. not full Gospel, I know a few Baptist who has been baptized and they are more on fire than some Pentecostals, I used to be an Anglican until the Holy Spirit filled me with fire. so now you know and now I know, maybe the Lord wanted to reveled this to you.

Southern Baptist pastors opened debate on speaking in tongues at a weekend conference where a charismatic Baptist sought to educate his fellow believers on the Holy Spirit.

The Christian Post > Church & Ministries|Tue, May. 01 2007 10:51 AM EDT
Southern Baptists Debate Over Speaking in Tongues.
By Audrey Barrick | Christian Post Reporter
Text Share RSS Print E-mailSouthern Baptist pastors opened debate on speaking in tongues at a weekend conference where a charismatic Baptist sought to educate his fellow believers on the Holy Spirit.
Related
Educating Baptists on the Holy Spirit Related Topics Denomination

After affirming his own conviction that he has been gifted with a private prayer language, Pastor Dwight McKissic of Cornerstone Baptist Church said Pentecost, and the Holy Spirit it celebrates, are largely overlooked in Baptist churches, according to the Associated Baptist Press. And the lack of awareness is a loss for Baptists, he added.

One skeptic of speaking in tongues said exegesis cannot answer the question of the current-day validity of the use of tongues or a private prayer language.

"Two people using the same methods of interpretation can look at the same text and come to completely opposite conclusions. When someone says, 'I'm speaking in tongues and it is from the Holy Spirit,' some people believe them and other people don't, and there's the difference," said Bart Barber of First Baptist Church of Farmersville, Texas, as he presented the semi-cessationist viewpoint (belief that some of the gifts of the Holy Spirit ceased with the early church), according to Baptist Press.

He went further to address the bans on some charismatic practices at the domestic and international mission agencies of the Southern Baptist Convention
Arguing that the mission boards have not wronged people who practice private prayer language by not funding their missions, Barber explained, "In the process of reviewing a candidate's background, they can come to the conclusion, 'That's not Baptist missions but Pentecostal. If they choose not to fund that, they have not denied anyone's liberty," Baptist Press reported.

http://www.christianpost.com/news/southe...

GET IN TOUCH WITH THIS PASTOR. I am looking forward in seeing a Truthbrary filled with the power of God.

affirming his own conviction that he has been gifted with a private prayer language, Pastor Dwight McKissic of Cornerstone Baptist Church said Pentecost, and the Holy Spirit it celebrates, are largely overlooked in Baptist churches
21 months ago: Ed,

You just aren't getting it... your stand is not scriptural regardless of your experience. Our experiences do not dictate our theology, the scriptures do. You seem to think that anyone regardless of heresies in their denomination are filled with the Holy Spirit if they speak in "tongues" ...not so. WE need to worship in Spirit yes... but also in truth.
21 months ago: I hope I was not to hard on you.
21 months ago: Cornerstone Baptist Church - 5415 Matlock Road - Arlington, TX 76018 Phone (817) 468.0083 Fax (817) 468.0309 Email: cornerstone@cbcarlington.org
Dr. Wm. Dwight McKissic, Sr. ~ Senior Pastor
21 months ago: Well we will agree to disagree, phone the pastor.
Melinda Taylor
Melinda Taylor
White Castle, LA
19 months ago: I found this post to be interesting but confusing. I would probably have to read it more than once to really understand it. All of the one talk in the 3rd person kept throwing me off. I have personally never had a problem seeing Jesus as holy and human and seeing him as a part of God but also an entity in and of Himself. When I first became a member of a church and had membership classes, my pastor at the time explained it in a way I understood. The trinity are all part of God but separate entities at the same time similar to slices of pie, cake or pizza being part of the whole but also individual parts. There is 1 God we worship in 3 entities of God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. I don't know if that helps anyone else but it helped me.
19 months ago: Melinda, you are absolutely correct.


We see in Isaiah that the Father says the following.

Isaiah 6:8: And I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then I said here am I; send me!

Isaiah 6:9-10: And He said, Go, and tell this people, you hear indeed, but do not understand; and seeing you see, but do not know.
Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their hearts, and turn back, and be healed.

Acts28: 25: And disagreeing with one another, they were let go, Paul saying one word: Well did the Holy Spirit speak through Isaiah the prophet to our fathers,

Acts 28:26-27: saying, "Go to this people and say: Hearing you shall hear and shall not understand; and seeing you shall see and not perceive.
For the heart of this people was fattened, and they have heard with their ears dully; and they closed their eyes; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them."

Hebrews 10:15-16: The Holy Spirit also is a witness to us; for after He had said before,
"This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord; I will put My Laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them,"

Jeremiah 31:33: but this shall be the covenant that I will cut with the house of Israel: After those days, says Jehovah, I will put My Law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
We can see from these scriptures that God the Farther and God The Holy Spirit are speaking as one.
And in 2 Corinthians confirms that the Lord is the Spirit and the Sprit is of the Lord.

2Corintians 3:17: And the Lord is that Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

Then of course in John 14:7: we read

John 14:7: If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also. And from now on you know Him and have seen Him.

It is plain by this verse that to know God and to see God is the same thing. Now whereas he said before that no man saw God at any time, it is to be understood in this way: without Christ, or were it not through Christ, no man could ever see God, nor ever saw God, at any time: for as Chrysostom says, the Son is a very concise and plain setting forth of the Father's nature to us.

If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father - Because I and the Father are One, John 10:30: Or, if ye had properly examined the intention and design of the law, ye would have been convinced that it referred to me; and that all that I have done and instituted was according to the design and intention of the Father, as expressed in that law.

And now we see that God The Father, God the Son, and God The Holy Spirit are one but their work is different

The Farther is the one, which commands God Almighty.
Jesus is the doer in the Godhead, the Son.
The Holy Spirit is the one that manifest the commands of the Father and the doing of Jesus.

1Corintians 12:4-6: But there are differences of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are differences of ministries, but the same Lord. And there are differences of workings, but it is the same God working all things in all.

• God the Father is in charge of the operations.
• Jesus God the Son is in charge of the administrations.
• God the Holy Spirit is in charge of the manifestations.

So when we pray we must go in the Spirit, through the Son Jesus, to the Father. The Holy Sprit is the power of the Godhead.

Mica 3:8: But I am full of power by the Spirit of Jehovah, and justice, and might.

Luke 1:35: And the angel answered and said to her, The Holy Spirit shall come on you, and the powe
18 months ago: Dwayne, you said: 4 days ago: Jesus is a man Huey. He is the son of Mary. Her blood courses through his veins. She gave birth to him and with very real pain did he part her womb. No amount of out-of-context scriptures will change that.


The blood of the mother does not cross over to the Child (The placenta is attached to the center of fetus's abdomen by the umbilical cord) that is why siblings have different blood types, so the blood that takes away the sins of the world comes from God. The children which Mary had were not adopted, they were from her womb, in the scriptures the Greek word delphus is used which means from the womb, if the word adecphos were used then it will mean that they were not from her womb.
18 months ago: The scripture says that in the blood there is life. Did your mother not give you life? Jesus is the blood, biological son of his mother, a flesh and blood human like you and I, and by virtue of the incarnation of the word of God in his flesh he is the son of God, the second Adam. This same gift he said can be bestowed upon the believer. Jesus said we can become sons of God, Adam was the first. How? We can become sons of God by the incarnation of the word of God in our flesh, just like Jesus, the second Adam.
18 months ago: The Placenta—an Unappreciated Organ
Of all the body's organs, perhaps the one that best exemplifies selfless service is the placenta. Most people give little thought to the placenta, and few appreciate the marvelous complexity and profound importance of this organ that is discarded and forgotten after birth. While parents and loved ones lift joyful prayers of thanks for the safe arrival of their newborn, few think of thanking God for the essential services rendered by His marvelously designed creation—the placenta.

After the egg is fertilized, the placenta is the very first organ to develop. Recent studies show that when the fertilized egg divides to form the first two cells, one is already destined to form the placenta, while the other becomes the baby.

An Important Hormone-Producing Gland
As soon as three days after fertilization—weeks before the mother normally suspects she is pregnant—cells of the developing placenta, called trophoblasts, begin to produce hormones. These hormones ensure that the lining of the uterus—the endometrium—will be ready to receive the embryo's implantation. Over the next few weeks, the developing placenta begins to make hormones that control the mother's physiology in a way that ensures the proper supply of nutrients and oxygen, which are essential to the baby's growth.

By about five days after fertilization the trophoblast cells, surrounding the developing embryo, begin to fuse together to form one giant cell with many nuclei (see Figure 1). This cell is called the syncytial trophoblast. One of the first functions of this placental giant cell is to invade the uterine wall of the mother in an amazing process called implantation (see Figure 2).

The placenta, sometimes called the "super organ" is evidence of the care and design of our Creator even at the earliest stages of life.
Prevents the Rejection of the Baby as a Foreign Graft
Although the developing placenta and baby implant within the thick nutrient-filled wall of the mother's uterus, they are not actually part of the mother's body. One of the placenta's important roles is to protect the developing baby from an attack by the mother's immune system, since the baby and the placenta are genetically unique and distinctly different from the mother.

It is still a mystery how the placenta prevents the mother from rejecting it and the baby as a foreign graft without shutting down her immune system.

After implantation, the placental giant cell "invades" the walls of several uterine arteries and veins, causing the mother's blood to flow through channels within the cell (see Figure 3). When the baby develops its own blood and blood vessels, the mother's blood and the blood of the developing baby come into close association, but they never mix or come into direct contact. The syncytial trophoblast forms a thin, seamless, and selective barrier between maternal blood and fetal blood. All the critically important nutrients, gases, hormones, electrolytes, and antibodies that pass from mother's blood to the baby's blood must travel across this seamless and selective filter. Waste products in the baby's blood must, in turn, pass across this filter to the mother's blood.

The Placenta Does It All!
In order to appreciate the marvelous work of the placenta, consider this: while the unborn baby's vital organs are developing and maturing, they (with the exception of the heart) are essentially useless. The placenta serves the functions of these organs by working in association with the mother. With the help of the mother's blood, the placenta must function as the baby's lungs, kidneys, digestive system, liver, and immune system. The placenta does this so well that a baby can actually survive until birth even when one or more of these vital organs sadly fail to develop in its own body.

During the later part of pregnancy, the flow of maternal blood through the placenta reaches a rate of about on
18 months ago: The Risky Expulsion of the Placenta after Birth
During the baby's development, the placenta is securely attached to the endometrium of the uterus by some of the larger branches of each cotyledon. When the uterus contracts to expel the placenta after the birth of the baby, some of the endometrial surface is torn off with it. This results in severing about 20 large uterine arteries which, if unchecked, would involve the loss of blood at a rate of about one pint per minute. Since fewer than five quarts (4 liters) of blood are in the adult female body, all the blood would be lost in less than 10 minutes. It is also important to note that the blood-clotting mechanism is suppressed in the placenta and uterine blood vessels during pregnancy, creating a situation comparable to a hemophiliac with 20 severed arteries. These factors result in a wound that no one would expect to survive!

Saved by a Miracle!
How does a woman survive childbirth with such a wound? Here is another example of the awe-inspiring work of God, the Creator and Sustainer of life. You see, each of the severed uterine arteries has a precisely placed muscular sphincter that acts like a purse string, or a surgeon's hemostat, to immediately close off the loss of blood. As a result, a normal birth involves the loss of only about a pint of blood. Simply amazing!

The next time you experience the joy of a baby's birth, thank the Lord for providing this selfless placenta. And above all, reflect on the fact that our Creator, who at the time of childbirth so mercifully spares the mother from a fatal loss of blood, did not hesitate to shed His own blood in death to save us from sin, death, and the power of the devil.
18 months ago: During most of pregnancy, the fetal circulatory system is closed off from the mother's circulatory system. The fetus produces its own red blood cells, which accept oxygen and nutrients from the mother's blood stream via capillaries in the placenta. The mother's red blood cells do not cross over to the fetus, and the fetus's red blood cells do not cross into the mother's blood stream. During the trauma of birth, however, blood exchange happens. This usually isn't that big of a deal, however. Even if the baby's blood type is different from the mom's, mom's immune system will take care of any foreign blood cells quickly (and produce antibodies against future invasion from these blood cells). A problem arises only during the second pregnancy and in relation to the Rh-factor.

If mom is Rh-positive, it doesn't matter what her child is (Rh-negative or Rh-positive) her body will not react to the child's blood during birth. Her immune system will recognize the Rh protein, and therefore not attack a cell that is Rh positive. If it encounters a cell without the Rh-factor, it won't recognize the cell as foreign because it is the protein present on the cell's membrane that identifies it as foreign. If there's no protein, there's no problem. However, if mom is Rh-negative, her body will recognize any Rh-positive blood cell as foreign, and activate her immune system accordingly. The Rh-factor is passed on via normal Mendelian genetics, with Rh-positive being dominant and Rh-negative being recessive. Therefore, it is possible to determine the possible genotypes of the child in regards to the Rh-factor using a simple Punnett square.
18 months ago: Why did you cut and paste a whole section from a book? A fetus cannot develop apart from its host matrix. Jesus is the son of Mary and the spirit that gave him life is the same one that gives you and I life both temporal and eternal. It is the word of God.

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