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Down with Dictators Everywhere!

Posted 27 months ago|105 comments|1,582 views
Egypt Is Free!
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Altruist
Eugene, OR
February 10th will be known in history as one of the most important days of the last fifty years throughout the world. As President Obama said the people of Egypt have found their worth, their dignity and their strength. The people have been empowered and the corrupt oligarchs have lost their power over them.

The rest of the dictators in the world are now quaking in fear. The 18 day revolution in Egypt was born of the peaceful revolution in Tunisia, and already we are seeing other dictators offering pay raises, relaxing human rights, and providing token concessions in the hope of appeasing their suffering people.

The pattern is remarkably similar in all of these dictatorships. Each ruler controls the military, the police and all power. They control the media, and they are allied with the worldwide corporate/conservative culture. Earlier they held on to power and squelched all opposition by claiming that the alternatives would lead to socialism. Lately they claim that if they lost power the Islamists would take over.

All of these dictators also control their people economically through crony capitalism. They give the plum contracts to friends and family members, or to those who provide the most bribes or "campaign Donations". The result is that a small minority in each country becomes fabulously rich and the rest of the people become poorer. In order to get a job you have to bribe someone, and the educational systems, if they exist at all, are so expensive that those without money are doomed to remain in poverty.

It is this economic disparity more than anything else that resulted in the revolutions in Tunisia and Egypt. People are less concerned with ideology than they are with jobs and the ability to raise their families and provide at least the basics of survival; food, water, sanitation and a roof over their heads.

Throughout history and all over the world, people fight for the freedom to provide for their families. Dictators have in the past been able to control the mobs through force and through control of the media. What has changed recently is the social media. A modern or developing country, needs cell phones and computers to work. Once people have these tools they become aware of what is possible in the world. They are able to become aware of their plight, and they are able to organize. They are able to find their worth and their dignity, and the Egyptians were able to see from the Tunisians that they had strength.

Countries like North Korea can still control their people because they do not allow cell phones or computers, and they control the media so the people are not aware that there are not alternatives to the dire poverty and totalitarian authoritarianism that they are living under.

China controls it's people by responding to their needs. Their economy has been growing at a 10% rate for decades now and the people have benefited from more beneficial changes in the last 50 years than any other culture in history. Still the Chinese government is terrified of the changes in Egypt, fearing another Tianamin Square uprising, and has thus far been able to withhold news of the revolution. Now that the revolution has succeeded will they be able to continue their manipulation of the truth?

Egypt will now become a model for social change throughout the world. Will terrorism decline now that people realize that peaceful change is possible without violence? Will the other dictators start treating their people more humanely, and will they start providing the basic needs of their people, to stave off their own overthrows or will the dictators of the world topple one after the other in a domino effect of freedom?

Already there are protests in Sudan, Yemen, Jordon and Algeria. What roll should the United States take? The United States still supports many oppressive dictators because we consider their geopolitical position or their resources more important than human rights.

The most important and the most repressive of our allies is Saudi Arabia. They control one fifth of the worlds reserves of oil, and have used some of that wealth to improve the nation, but 80% of their people are under 40 years old, and there is greater income inequality there than anywhere else, with the royal family's opulence and thousands of palaces a constant reminder of this inequality.

We have other dictators that we support. The Corporate/Conservative culture resists change. Will the incremental changes they allow in their puppet governments appease their people, or will the knowledge and support from the social networks result in further revolutions? http://www.commondreams.org/view/2011/02...

Glen Beck with his Islamaphobia and fearmongering of a New World Order leading to Caliphate in the MidEast looks kind of silly now, and Sarah Palin may not have really called for an invasion of Egypt but her criticism of Obama and the Corporate/Conservative support for the status quo is plainly absurd. The Tea Party radicals with their calls for second amendment remedies is on the wrong side of history this time. This is not an Islamic revolution, it is people's democratic revolution and President Obama was right to keep a hand's off posture with support for the democratic principles the people desired.

It is possible after all to bring about meaningful change without taking up weapons.
That Hopey-Changey Thing actually works pretty well doesn't it?

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COMMENTS
27 months ago: How does our current U.S. dictator control his subjects?
sunny2
sunny2
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Altruist
Altruist
Eugene, OR
27 months ago: The corporate/conservative culture that controls most of the dictators in the world is now controlling the opposition to Obama using it's own media, Fox news and Hate radio, to spread it's propaganda. Fortunately they control less than half of the people in the country.

Still the military industrial complex has it's hooks into Democratic as well as Republican legislators, so they have been successful in moving the entire country to the right.

The Chamber of Commerce which spent 93% of it's massive war chest to defeat Democrats went on a misinformation and dirty tricks campaign typical of the sort of things done in third world dictatorships. http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2011/02/c...
sunny2
sunny2
27 months ago: Sounds to me as if there is a underlying movement for a one World Leader. It seems as if they are beginning to emulate that third world strategy. What are these individuals thinking? I don't think this Country can withstand much more with so many people divided. I just hope we don't break under so much pressure. It sickens me the way they toss the values and worth of this Country aside for plain greed.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
27 months ago: Let's wait and see how the new old government treats the people of Egypt before we break out the champagne.
"Meet the new boss...same as the old boss"
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
27 months ago: That hopey changey thing....hmmmm. Seems like Obama was like a little girl on the playground with all the hop-scotching around he's been doing the past couple of weeks. No matter how it went, he could say he was for it.
Altruist
Altruist
Eugene, OR
27 months ago: A lot of people can't imagine a world where the United States is not pulling all of the geopolitical strings. It is refreshing to see the people decide their own fate without being manipulated by other nations.

The terrorists say that change isn't possible without violence. Now there is real hope for peaceful change throughout the area, which will hopefully translate into peace and stability in the future.

You are correct that they are not out of the woods yet. A military dictatorship isn't much better than a Mubarak dictatorship, if they keep power, but Mohammed el-Baradai has warned the military that if they don't start coming up with plans for gradual transfer of power to civilian control, with new constitution, freedom of parties to form, and free elections, then the people will take to the streets again Friday.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
27 months ago: Yep, now Egypt is under martial law for the next six months, they have no constitution, they have no representative in government, and a flunky of the Muslim Brotherhood is leading their negotiations with the new military regime.
27 months ago: and we have George Bush to thank for the spread of democracy.

He started it in Iraq. Remember the blue fingers after they voted.

Every other middle easterner wants a blue finger too.
Altruist
Altruist
Eugene, OR
27 months ago: This from CBS news: "To that end, another gigantic demonstration has been planned for Friday. The pro-democracy folks say they want to remind Egyptians even in this country, and the army in particular, that what happened here the last few weeks was no fluke. The demonstration Friday is going to be repeated next Friday and next Friday and the next Friday for the foreseeable future."

"The pro-democracy demonstrators have met with the army, and they told CBS News that for first time the army seemed to be listening and weren't being paternalistic."

27 months ago: The people of Wisconsin have found their worth, their dignity and their strength. The people have been empowered and the corrupt oligarchs have lost their power over them. They voted to restore fiscal reality, and they are trying to cast off the leeches of unions that are trying to enslave the people of the state.

The average Wisconsin teacher makes between $80,000 and $90,000 per year (including benefits) for 39 weeks of work a year with 13 weeks off; while the average Wisconsin resident in the private sector makes $37,398.00 for a full year's work. The people are waking up to tyrants trying to enslave them with tax burdens.

Who are the public sector unions organized against? Agasinst the public. Against "we the people".

Unions, Delende Est.

Pro-democracy legislators are using the results of an election to cast votes and pass bills, to do what they campaigned for- to reign in the budget and the unions and their national organization of co-conspirators.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
27 months ago: Well said. And you didn't include the 20 sick days and 5 personal leave days, which if not used, roll into a running account, and can be sold back to the state at retirement. This can be worth as much as a quarter million dollars over a 25 year career.

Now they are calling in sick, and forcing schools to close. I guess these "public servants" have shown their true motives. Money.
sunny2
sunny2
27 months ago: Box....Everyone's motive is money. Name one that isn't.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
27 months ago: Then, if that be the case, they need to admit it, and quit with the whole "It's all about the children" routine. An entry level teacher makes up to 30% more, just in salary alone, than the equivalent entry level position in the private sector.
sunny2
sunny2
27 months ago: Sofa - I have known some Union leaders personally. I know absolutely what goes on. I know when my husband back when didn't have a job and couldn't find one, they helped him. They do it over and over again for the little guy so that they won't starve. Teachers have to be protected. I don't think the ordinary everyday teacher unless they are professors make that high pay. Our Government is stuffing their over-flowing pockets with our blood money. They squeeze more and more taxes out of us, and then they stand up there like big chiefs and say they want more and will take more and the people have nothing to say. We need some protection.
27 months ago: sunny- First thing: Those teachers make 2 to 3 times what the average citizen in Wisconsin makes, while working only 3/4 of the year and having teh best benefits and retirement available. It is the Wisconsin Teachers who are living off the poor.

Second Thing: I also knew several Union Leaders in several different trades in different counties. Over time, a friend would need help, and they would be taken advantage of by the union and shat upon; several were beaten and robbed. Different incidents, different times, different unions- But all had similar results. And in each instance, the union enforcers and the prime delegate involved ended up with much larger hospital bills due to some random event or another. It turns out that predators in unions are like predators in the rest of society. The only protection people get, the only self defense- is SELF defense. Do not tolerate thugs. Do what you must to protect yoursleves from them. Especially when they're in government.

Be safe out there. Protect one another from thugs; union, gang, government, whatever. Protect yourself. Because when you ask someone else to do it, they expect some payback...and then you are part of it. Do not chain yourslef to another master. Stand up on your own feet.

(The advice is free. But no, I will not protect you. I can however give you a few tips.)
27 months ago: The Unions want a monopoly, and we all know that monopolies are corrupt.

But the real issue is "who works for who". Do poor people plow for rich people?
Or do the teachers work for the citizens? Can the citizens control the teachers pay and pensions, in accordance with what everyone else in teh state is having deal with? Are some groups a protected elite, who are above mere fiscal realities?

As state revenue goes down, state expenditures must go down.
If the union wants to enslave the state, then they should be wary of how slaves might react when they're told they have become slaves.
sunny2
sunny2
27 months ago: Exactly what is your profession?
27 months ago: Free-Lance Bull**** Detector

How 'bout you, babe?
sunny2
sunny2
27 months ago: The 80,000 or 90,000 a year isn't very much compared to what the fat cats in Government are making, including the Wisconsin Governor with his added bonuses, and his determination to "wipe out." I suppose we will be enslaved after this by a powerful Government with no place to turn to. Nothing is all what it seems. Unions are powerful but on the side of the people, too. So, far I haven't seen anything the Gov. is doing for the little guy. Don't expect that Governor fat cat to do anything but takeaway.
27 months ago: "Unions are powerful but on the side of the people" ?? What are you smokin'?

Who are the public sector unions organized against? Against the people.

My experience is that Unions are petty tyrants that abhor freedom and liberty: Unions beat up people, set fires, break bones, kill some, and decide who can work and who may not. Several union members in Chicagoland and in Wisconsin acquired a limp, and many can feel 'changes in the weather' thanks to the efforts of me and some friends discussing the finer points of Liberty with several small groups of union tyrants many years ago. You may accept chains of union tyrants, but know that the rest of us will defend ourselves against them, and their community organizers.

Liberty.
Not unions. Not collectivism. Not obedience to some thug. Not fear of some petty tyrant.
Liberty defended, is liberty earned.
This country earned some in the past, but it's time again to earn some more.

In New Hampshire, the state motto is "Live Free or Die".
In Virginia (a 'right to work' state), the state motto is "Sic Semper Tyrannis".
Tyrants today are reminding the people of why our forefathers had enough of this crpa.

Death to Tyrants. Not jail. Not a strong reprimand. Thus always unto tyrants.

"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were ever our countrymen."
- John Adams

sunny- Keep waiting for fat cats and unions and governments to do anything for you and for your litle guys. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you...
sunny2
sunny2
27 months ago: Well Dear "I am not smokin anything, as you put it so classy." Our life experiences are quite different that is why probably I have a clearer vision. It seems obvious that we are not on the same page which is fine because I don't wish to be. No one is going to bully me to think that they are totally right. I have to disagree with you. There are tyrants everywhere, and we face that with Governments. With all due respect, you don't know what you are talking about. You know 1/2 truths. I'm for the teachers and our children getting a good education. So, what is the Government doing to us? People and families are living on the streets. There is high unemployment that is destroying our economy. Then I'm to think you go along with only Rich and Poor in this Country. Without Unions we are finished. Think....Use your head instead of emotion.
27 months ago: "I'm for the teachers and our children getting a good education."

Teachers and children are learning who is more powerful, the union or the government? Are thug tactics now acceptable in America?

Is loyalty to a union more important than the law itself? Apparently that's what the police think. So we are "without the rule of law".

All lessons being learned.

If the unions win, and we find out that "might makes right"- Then don't be surprised if the people use this new education in surprising and vigorous ways. Education may have unintended consequences.

27 months ago: By the way- I'm for Teachers getting an education on this topic.

Fire the Teachers for abandoning their jobs, and for creating havoc to the people of teh state for closing schoools.

Jail the leadership in Wisconsin and Nationally for trying to usurp the state government. (Pelosi, Reid, Obama behind bars)

Education about morality, civility, and the law.
Does any of that exist anymore?

***

Meanwhile, you seem intent to teach the rest of us that there is no law. No one should wish for that. Rule by thuggery is not pretty.
sunny2
sunny2
27 months ago: I side with the teachers all the way around. We need our children to be educated so they need to get paid fairly just like everyone else. I don't think they are making a lot of money because they have expenses, too. Also, during the time they are off in the summer, my experience is that they collect unemployment. You probably never accomplished much in your life time. Some people like yourself bear shackles they will never be free of. Unions took the chains off the people. Not all Unions are thugs. Get off my back. Don't write to me as you don't make sense. I will not answer your uncontrollable Rants and worthless innuendos. I wouldn't quote John Adams if I were you, it doesn't come off. LOL
sunny2
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27 months ago: All I can say is "Thank You" to some of the greatest teachers I have ever known and have had the privilege of learning from. Teachers have been the guiding force that have inspired many, many great men and woman throughout the ages. They are there for the children that have no one else to turn to in time of need. The best of the best are great mentors that instill truth and knowledge for others to carry on. Without them there would be no awareness; no culture; no great art to look upon; there would be no great discoveries and invention. How do you put a price on that? I guess that is what it is about. Still, people deserve to eat and live and earn a living. Anyone who can read and write because of their teachers should kiss the ground they walk on. Thank God there was someone who cared enough to make them learn. Teachers have a purpose to bring awareness. I never met a bad teacher as they were always able to embrace their jobs with passion. Not all teachers are special, but the ones that are leave behind a legacy for the rest. I know many teachers because of the lack of money in the State budget will pay for supplies for the children out of their own pockets and not say one word about it. It isn't only about the children, it is about turning that child into a productive citizen and perhaps be an outstanding human being and leader.
27 months ago: The average Wisconsin teacher makes between $80,000 and $90,000 per year (including benefits) for 39 weeks of work a year with 13 weeks off; while the average Wisconsin resident in the private sector makes $37,398.00 for a full year's work. The people are waking up to tyrants trying to enslave them with tax burdens.

Those are the facts.

You have not tried to address them, but rather make personal attacks (across a few previous posts).

You support the Union, while I support the children and the taxpayers ("we the people") who are trying to work through a budget crisis (which the union also ignores).

When your group uses force to occupy the Capital Building, to interfere with the process of government--You look like poor losers, yelling against the recent election and against budgetary realty; but still intent on robbing the rest of us.

My teachers made about what my father made, not 2 or 3 times as much. They had similar benefits. That's what I ask- Let's pay teachers roughly what othrs make. Historically Teachers made less, and yet they turned out very productive children who built a great nation.

But now, some farm animals say they are more equal than the others, and demand they get much higher pay and benefits. And they call the rest of us names, while demanding we pay them and feed them and house them.

John Adams knew about petty Tyrants placing chains upon the people. You find tyranny funny, huh? So did King George. We wiped that smile off his face.
These chains will come off, because America does not accept your attempt to enslave us.

And the more demeaing your comments, the more personal attacks you make- The more it exposes the extremity of your position.

Is it lonely, arguing without facts or reason; to only have 'feelings' to support your arguments?
Is it lonely, arguing to use force against the government?
Is it lonely, arguing that the poor must be compelled to support the rich?

All-Make Belive- ist : Consider using data, instead of ignoring it. Maybe discuss how much Teachers pay and benefits are, compared to the people of the state.

Maybe explain why poor people without money should keep paying the exhorbidant expense for these elitists in their midst.

Maybe have some basis for your rants, rather than make-belive and feelings.
sunny2
sunny2
27 months ago: Again, I repeat, Thank you to all the Teachers that made us aware that we can achieve anything. America has always been on top just for that reason. Thank God there are scientist and medical doctors and philosophers and on and on and on. I think some people get it because they are consumed with money that others make and because they never had a proper education. Maybe they didn't have a chance. Those are the people most angry and make no sense. (I saw a posting - Free Lance Bull Detector as an occupation. That's quite an occupation - I wonder what that pays. I suppose they don't know there are jobs out there that actually make one feel proud and not have to resort to stupid). By the way my name isn't Babe.
27 months ago: Everyone commenting has agreed that teachers are good.
but teachers are not the union, and the union is not the teachers.

Teacher: Good
Unions: Commie Extortionist Goons
sunny2
sunny2
27 months ago: Are some indviduals blind and fooled? I read a comment dismissing feelings. Passion and feelings for a cause is what brings about change. These qualities drive the spirit and makes one brave. Look at Egypt. How come this so called no it all doesn't see that the Government is taxing the poor. This tax package imposed a higher rate of tax on the poorest people. They don't know what is going on. Stand up and fight the Government, not the people.
26 months ago: Stand up for the people, and fight the unions.
The unions are thugs, extorting money from the people. Fight these goons.
sunny2
sunny2
27 months ago: I need to study now.
27 months ago: Feelings about your mythology does not trump reality. Ignoring the data leads to Darwin type results for your tribe.

sunny2
sunny2
27 months ago: Get on the reality train.
sunny2
sunny2
27 months ago: God is not a myth to me. Maybe to you.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
27 months ago: Here's an idea. Base teacher's and school administrators pay in direct correlation to the average private employee. Educators have long said that we need to throw tons of money at education to increase the long term productivity of the people. A quality education supposedly brings up the earning potential of every well -taught student.

Well, it's time they put THEIR money where their mouth is. When the pay rates go up for the private sector due to the teachers excellent teaching, then give the teachers a raise too. When the pay rates drop in the private sector, cut the teachers too.

Maybe with some kind of incentive program, they will quit turning out classes with 60 % illiteracy.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
27 months ago: On an individual basis, a payscale test should be given to every student at the end of the year. If students score well indicating the teacher accomplished what she was hired to do, she gets paid. If the students do exceptionally well, she gets a bonus. If they do poorly, dock her salary according to a scale of performance. I use the pronoun "her" just to save time. I know there are male teachers too.
sunny2
sunny2
27 months ago: That doesn't make sense because students if they don't do well look for the first person to blame.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
27 months ago: As do the educators.
sunny2
sunny2
27 months ago: When there is a "Great Teacher," they can help their students change the World and make a difference. This is where a teacher is worth their weight in gold. Not every student or teacher is made for greatness, but they still have to do their jobs. If they don't, they are the first to go. The parents won't put up with it. Handling kids and molding young minds is not an easy task. Also, teachers make in perks way less than in a Fortune 500 Company. I can be a witness to that one.
I can go into the net and reiterate the facts and statistics that I see in front of me, but it is very boring. I won't do that, especially with plagiarism. I do; however, listen to the commentaries of many of the smartest people around. I get the facts every day. I'm shocked at some of things I hear. That's an answer for the Darwin theory person's comment. It is a comedy to have to defend teachers jobs and question their salaries that are low to begin with. They are there doing us a favor handling our kids. Maybe the people complaining don't have children and don't realize that they can become are next leaders and will run everything in the future. I'd be good to those teachers.
Altruist
Altruist
Eugene, OR
27 months ago: Sofa is totally bogus with the salary figures. The starting salary for Wisconsin teachers is about $25,000 and the average is about $46,000 which is comparable with nearby states. The average is 20th nationwide and the starting salary is 49th. http://teacherportal.com/salary/Wisconsi...

There seems to be all kinds of conflicting information made up by the right wing think tanks that are completely divorced from reality about union wages.

When comparing union worker's wages with private sector why don't they include what all of the millionaires and billionaires make? How many of them are in a union?

If you look at why education sucks in the US compared to the best education throughout the world you will see that the difference is that the successful nations revere their teachers, they don't denigrate and demonize them like the Republicans do here.

In the nations with the best teachers and the most successful educational systems they draw the teachers from the students who are in the top 5%.

Here the top students go into fields where they can make real money. They become bankers or hedge fund managers so they can make thousands of times more than the lowly union workers, and they don't work for the betterment of the society, their greed results in the destruction of the economy.

If we are to ever compete on the world stage again, we need to either elevate our teachers to the top of the society, or make the vampire super rich pay their fair share. Now they suck up 50% of the wealth of the nation from the rest of us.

Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
27 months ago: Al
You are correct about the salary. But you left out the total cost. When you add in free medical and life insurance, matching funds to retirement plans, 20 paid leave days, matching SSI payments, etc., you can double those salary figures.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
27 months ago: Al
You also left out that those supposedly "best and brightest" that go on to become bankers and such are performance driven. If they do not produce, they do not keep their job. The unions have taken that drive away from teachers. If a teacher is not good at what she does, it is nearly impossible to fire her. The illiteracy rates in America would seem to indicate that a large portion of America's teachers are not very good at what they do. The entire education system has continued to decline, while teachers salaries have gone up. Therefore, you could surmise that the quality of education is in no way related to teachers' compensation.
sunny2
sunny2
27 months ago: Lack of funding makes it decline. Not paying teachers in many States a good salary is depriving the Student. They are not given the best teachers. Not having enough books, supplies, computer equipment, etc. Not everything is so clear cut. Different sections of the City that have many cultures are not always given the best quality education. It's right here in the Northeast. Smaller towns do a little better where there is equality in education. You can see why there is no consistency because of how the State and Government sees who deserves it more. Funds are not distributed equally. Some towns are poorer than others.
sunny2
sunny2
27 months ago: Cutting programs out right from under a Teacher who may be helping a student learn hurts the educational system. These teachers put in a lot of time. When they go home, they continue with studying, planning, and grading papers. They put special projects on constantly. That is a lot of hours to put in. Not like the guy who starts 8:00 am and goes home at 4:30 pm and collects a salary.
sunny2
sunny2
27 months ago: Anyone who is performance driven on a job and doing well is usually recognized by the company, if it is a big enterprise as you seem to portray, will pay large amounts of money to fund that person's education in the field they are working in. They invest in these people. I don't look at the banking industry as if it is a worthwhile field. It is a field of robots collecting big money and giving millions of dollars bonus money to their executives as we have seen in the past year. Bankers are what you are throwing out there so I answered it as your example what I thought because of what I have experienced. Once you leave the fold of HS and college, you are taught to go out in the World and use what you have been taught. The rest of the job is up to you to achieve. This is where the best and brightest prevail. Also, any person who doesn't do a good job will not keep their job in the cut throat business world. It is again all about figures. It's the luck of the draw.
sunny2
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27 months ago: You know, "such is life." There is no easy remedy. Don't throw away the hardworking individual out there who may be a mechanic or house painter or have an office job, a grocery clerk. They pay their taxes and are responsible citizens. They went to school and are educated. It's all about what that person wants in life, and they can excell in what they do and make plenty of money. What's the difference? Every one working contributes in one way or another. The small businessman who hires people and has them working is important to the economy. They were taught to go out and apply their education and to be responsible. A teacher again is worth their weight in gold for all the lives they have saved from being useless out there and have throughout the decades made lives whole.
27 months ago: Scores and the eductaion level of the country was higher when teachers made less.
Scores and the education level of the country was higher before the Federal Dept of Education.

DATA: Localities educate their kids better than national/federal level programs.

Banning teacher's unions and disbanding Federal Dept of Education will bring test scores back up.

26 months ago: Those who can- Do.
Those who can't- Teach.

(I've done both, and find this oft repeated phrase hits the mark.)
sunny2
sunny2
27 months ago: Good comment.
sunny2
sunny2
27 months ago: Thank you Happy. I get what he is saying which makes him foolish. I come from a family that is self made. I'm talking about an average salary for skilled and educated people at this time who might be able to find some work. I saw a lot of jobs at that rate. I think he is going off the deep end. He seems to worship money. It is number one to him. The almighty $. I know how hard you have to work for something when you are self made. It takes a gift from God and a talent. I take nothing for granted. Each dollar now a days comes from heaven.
sunny2
sunny2
27 months ago: I don't want to brag to this guy. He might choke on his words.
27 months ago: Then you should be the first person to recognize how out of line the union demands are.

When every penny is precious, we are all saddenned to see how petty the teachers are, when they declare that some pigs are more equal than others.
sunny2
sunny2
27 months ago: Speak for yourself. The trouble is in the Government causing conflict and taking away programs. You are so classy using that language. You sound like you live in the back woods.
26 months ago: sunny- unable to beat facts and reasoning, goes for the personal attack.

Well you have found me out: "some pigs are more equal than others" is a local backwoods phrase. Some red-neck named George Orwell popularized it among us backwoods folks.

: )

26 months ago: Now that is funny. Did you have to bring up backward red-necks though?
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27 months ago: The title of the original article is "Down with Dictators".

When Teachers use force to extort money- They become petty tyrants.
Some focus on touchy feely goodness. But let's focus on their actions.

Denying students education.
Occupying a State capital by force (which was not resisted by the state).
Bringing in outside muscle to back them up.

If it walks like a tyrant, and acts like a tyrant, ....
sunny2
sunny2
27 months ago: That's your problem reading that type of a book.
sunny2
sunny2
26 months ago: It's good sofa that you stand by your comments, but I don't like to be slammed either, and I have my own thoughts frommy experience with Union. Everything has to be done in moderation. I don't think we should go backwards. We have to go forwards. I get it already. Sunny
27 months ago: The numbers reveal how incredible the union demands are: Who else gets these kind of benefits, and who asks people making much less to pay for their excess?

The average Wisconsin teacher makes between $80,000 and $90,000 per year (including benefits) for 39 weeks of work a year with 13 weeks off; while the average Wisconsin resident in the private sector makes $37,398.00 for a full year's work. The people are waking up to tyrants trying to enslave them with tax burdens.
sunny2
sunny2
27 months ago: Seems like you haven't come up with a decent reply. Again, they receive unemployment when they are off. After work they concentrate on study planning, the student, grading, tutoring, special events, school meetings, teacher parent meetings. Please, they deserve every penny. How many hours do you put in? Unless you live in Wisconsin, what do you care? Anyway, you sound like sour grapes. Those teachers don't make that much, possibly a professor in Wisconson. Average workers make average money. So what. How much tax do you pay? I've experienced a lot of life. I can tell you haven't.
sunny2
sunny2
27 months ago: I'm finished with this conversation. Someone else take over this one.
Altruist
Altruist
Eugene, OR
27 months ago: The average education of a teacher is now master's degree. How much would a person with that education make in the private sector.

People like Sofa are simply jealous, but he could have gone to school and earned the right to teach also. With that education he could get more doing just about anything else with that education. Teaching is one of the hardest jobs in the world. Most teachers have to go to school in the summertime to keep up with their topics.

This entire discussion has gone too far afield however. The tyrants in this country are not the teachers. They are the corporate CEO's, the bankers and the Wall Street Tycoon.

Throughout the Middle East people are rising up because they want jobs and basic services, The dictators like Gadhafi took 1/3rd of all of the money generated in Libya.

In these countries there is no middle class. There is the rich who wheel and deal with the dictators, and there is the poor without jobs.

We differ from them because the unions created a middle class. The unions are what made it possible for the poor to rise up from their impoverished state and buy cars and houses and live a good life.

The corporations and the super rich are like the tyrants. They have vacuumed up all of the money in the country, leaving no jobs for the rest. Now they have generated most of what we owe in the National Debt, with their wars and they hired their minions to make the poor and the middle class pay for their profiteering.

The Republicans are servants of the super rich who make a thousand times what these supposedly overpaid teachers make. They have now been instructed by their masters to eliminate the unions and the middle class

There is a class war in America. It is not about union and non union workers. It is between ALL workers, and those who make millions while they sleep without working. They hire other people to make the investments that make them rich.

Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
27 months ago: I'm glad you brought up Libya. What they have now is a result of their revolution in 1969, when they threw off the "oppressive shackles" of monarchy.

"In their September 1969 revolution, Qadhafi and the young officers who provided most of his support aimed with idealistic fervor at bringing to an end the social inequities that had marked both the colonial periods and the monarchical regime.

The new government that resulted was socialist, but Qadhafi stressed that it was to be a kind of socialism inspired by the humanitarian values inherent in Islam. It called for equitable distribution to reduce disparities between classes in a peaceful and affluent society, but in no sense was it to be a stage on the road to communism." http://countrystudies.us/libya/45.htm

There used to be a significant middle class in Libya, under the monarchy. But:

"Although the Libyan middle class was suppressed by the above mentioned restrictions in the late 1970s, it was not destroyed. Indeed, a significant number of its members adapted themselves to the social dictates of the revolutionary regime by cooperation with it or by recruitment into the modernizing state apparatus.
Its ranks still contained educated technocrats and administrators, without whose talents the state could not function, as well as remnants of the commercial and entrepreneurial class, some of them well-to-do. A separate category of small traders, shopkeepers, and farmers could also be identified. They, too, sought careers in the state sector, although many of them continued to operate small businesses alongside public enterprises. Those who could not adapt or who feared persecution fled abroad in significant numbers."

So, yeah, keep using the Middle East uprisings as examples.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
27 months ago: More on Libya: Do you recognize any of these tenants in what progressives want to do here in the US?

"Having attacked the bureaucracy and concentrations of wealth and privilege, the regime in the later 1970s dealt with the entrepreneurial middle class. The first restrictions on private traders appeared as early as 1975, but the real blows came a few years later.

A 1978 law struck at much-prized investments in private property by limiting ownership of houses and apartments to one per nuclear family, although the government promised compensation to the dispossessed.

New restrictions were placed on commercial and industrial establishments, foreign trade became a monopoly of public corporations, workers assumed control of major industrial and commercial enterprises, and private wholesale trade was abolished. Finally, state investments and subsidies were shifted away from small businesspeople."

Yep, Libya. Just another socialist country being overthrown by its own people.
sunny2
sunny2
27 months ago: Altruist - I heard last night that 2,000 teachers were given notice. Some of these people are just down to earth nice people who have dedicated their lives to educating. I really hurt for these people.

Those people who comment such as Sofa are jealous. It is very obvious.
27 months ago: why would anyone be jealous of deluded socialist losing their jobs?
I celebrate the reality they will awaken to: Doing stupid things gets you fired.
Content Removed by sofa_
27 months ago: people like sofa... have several masters and beyond.
people like sofa... seek data and apply reason, rather than mythology.
people like sofa... have seen many educated fools and many simple laborers who are very wise.
People like sofa... have taught, labored, produced, led, and mentored- and know the difference.

"Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach." Old saying with some evidence to support it.

Al-myth-makebelieve-ist:
Your data is wrong, and has been repeatedly shown to be wrong.
Resorting to name calling and personal attacks reveals that even you know you have lost the argument here.

People like sofa... look at the data and apply reasoning. Try that.

Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
27 months ago: "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Albert Einstein
sunny2
sunny2
27 months ago: Altruist - Brilliant Comment.

Box - What does that quote have to do with anything?
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
27 months ago: Sunny2
Read my comments following Altruist's brilliant comment and it should be clear to you.
sunny2
sunny2
27 months ago: History always repeats itself because nothing ever gets resolved.
I don't know if I would call it insanity, but I think it is stupidity, ignorance, and greed. How can anything be expected to change. It's sad. No peace anywhere.
27 months ago: People like sofa_ have TCG saying yahoo!
Altruist
Altruist
Eugene, OR
26 months ago: The tyrants of the world always attack the educators and the students first because they rely on ignorance and lies to spread their messages.

Almost all of the uprisings are people that are demanding the simple basics of survival, jobs, basic services, etc.

The tyrants are the ones that are getting rich selling off the nation's natural resources, and exploiting the workers, and those billions rarely trickle down to the poor.

Many popular uprisings end up being undemocratic because someone gets power of the military. Many of these revolutions may have started out as socialist, but the suppression of freedoms and the resistance to change is by nature conservative.

The progressives of the world are slowly slowly overturning the tyrants, and democracy is becoming more and more popular.

Even though the conservative regressives in this country gained power recently, the majority of people in the country still want change, and are fighting for the same things the folk in the Arab nations are fighting for now, jobs. They have been hoodwinked by the regressives to think that conservative policies will create more jobs but the cuts they demand will cost between 700.000 and a million jobs, will slow down the economy .2% and will make life considerably harder for the poor and middle class while throwing money at the already obscenely rich. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/con...

sunny2
sunny2
26 months ago: I ask myself "why" every day. Good Comment Atruist
26 months ago: "The tyrants of the world always attack the educators and the students first because they rely on ignorance and lies to spread their messages."-altruist

The educators rely on ignorance and lies to spread their messages. Agree.

The tyrants are the unions, who are trying to force 'we the people' of the middle class to pay for their largess. Just like the Torries.

Those trying to conserve union power are undemocratic. Those unions need to progress through tyranny and thuggery. It seems the union pigs would be more equal than others.
sunny2
sunny2
26 months ago: This is not a perfect world. Good and bad everywhere. There always has to be an inbetween. It seems like you never had an experience with any particular teacher that inspired you. Some of us can remember maybe one or two teachers that helped us change our lives by guiding us. That is a lot. The student has to look for that guidance. Tyrants are people that try to force their opinions on others by using tactics. Many, many educators are gifted and they take that gift, and they give it to others. Not all people have that gift and only care about a salar. They still have to do a job and if they aren't good, they shouldn't be teaching. They are educators to waylay ignorance. Not because they are spreading lies across the universe. For what purpose would that be. It seems like a lot of wasted effort. Seens your describing terrorists more than Unions. I've got a good laugh out of this one.
26 months ago: "It seems like you never had an experience with any particular teacher that inspired you."-sunny
Please stop making stuff up.

For me, plenty of teachers were inspiring, even a few in a formal school setting (but just a few). Most great teachers were not in schools. The sea is a great teacher. The wilderness. The inner city. History. All teach great lessons.

Unions teach great lessons too. Unions= gangs of thugs who use extrotion to steal from the community. They also taught me something: Never bow down and lick the boot. Rather, when confronted with union tactics, RESIST! and put as many thugs into jails and hospitals as possible, and drain their war chest bank accounts. We the people must defend ourselves against thugs and tyrannts. Fight union extortion.

Jefferson and Adams remain great teachers.
As are Stalin, Mao, Obama, Rev Wright, Chavez, Castro, Pol Pot.
Learn what they are. There is a test on this material (look out the window).

Sic Semper Tyrannis.
Always.
sunny2
sunny2
26 months ago: I'm not in a very good mood today ..don't push it. You stop making things up. I can't have an opinion on this site. Are you telling me I don't have a voice?
Most great teachers are very, very rare. Of course you can learn by nature that is the first thing I learned in grade school. Great artist were inspired by nature. Great artist teach. Have you every walked through the Lourve and have seen the people gather in awe. I have. Look what they have given back to the World. Great writers open your mind. Scientific and medical discoveries...what about that. I've known great teachers who taught music. Everyone learns from someone if you are open to it. Parents can be great teachers. Everyone has to get a educational foundation to go on and further their education. So, you say Unions teach great lessons too. Well, so does our Government. Look at the example they are setting for us. You wonder why there are Unions. You are preaching to the preacher. I've been there already. We are defending ourselves at this moment against the biggest thugs, and it isn't the Unions. You think no body else knows all of this.
26 months ago: Yes- We are defending ourselves against the thugs in the unions. Unions revolve around brute force- Like when that teacher carried the sign threatening the Govenor's son. We all learned from that.

Defense against extortion.
Sic Semper Tyrannis.


sunny2
sunny2
26 months ago: Today's headlines say that the budget cuts could effect our food supply and many will die. Hopefully, this will never happen.
26 months ago: CO2 + water + soil + sun = Garden Food

sunny2
sunny2
26 months ago: Whatever. Run out of hash.
sunny2
sunny2
26 months ago: You wonder who is behind all of this.
Altruist
Altruist
Eugene, OR
26 months ago: I don't wonder who is behind it. The Chamber of Commerce and other corporate conglomerates spent a huge amount to defeat Democrats. It is a choice between people or big money. Big money owns most of the media, and they own all of the Republicans and many of the Democrats.

In the past election the only financial opposition came from the unions. Now they are concentrating on eliminating them.

All of the Republican changes in tax law, corporate welfare and other subsidies, for the past 50 years have shifted the tax burden away from the rich and the corporations (In 1954 they both paid twice as much as a % of total revenue) and at the same time the Republicans have opposed all of the laws and bills that help the poor and middle class.

With the Citizens United ruling the Oligarchs have completed their bloodless coup and have eliminated our Democracy.

The regular people no longer have a voice because the representatives only listen to big money because they need that money for re-election. The huge Right wing propaganda machine using Fox and talk radio has convinced a majority of Americans to vote against their own self interests. They are voting for the people who destroyed the economy and who are cutting programs that help them and create jobs.

Because giving huge tax breaks to the rich further imbalances the budget, these cuts mean that the middle class has to pay more in local,and state taxes and innumerable fee increases.

This isn't just politics it is war on 95% of America.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
26 months ago: Al,

What percentage of total tax revenue collected is paid by the top 10% income bracket?
sunny2
sunny2
26 months ago: Box They are the ones receiving all the opportunities. What good is it any way. More tax cuts and more programs and necessities taken away.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
26 months ago: I asked for a percentage. A number. Altruist didn't feel like giving me that number.Why?
sunny2
sunny2
26 months ago: Don't you think he said enough? All the percentages that people throw out there aren't correct anyway. They change moment to moment or they are inacurate.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
26 months ago: The reason he doesn't answer is simple enough. It doesn't fit his agenda.

The top-earning 5 percent of taxpayers (AGI over $159,619), paid far more than the bottom 95 percent. The top 5 percent earned 34.7 percent of the nation's adjusted gross income, but paid approximately 58.7 percent of federal individual income taxes.

That's just income taxes. It doesn't even include the luxury taxes, the environmnetal taxes, and all the other taxes that the well off pay far more in than the others.

Here's a chart. You can't go back and change the truth.
http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/2...
sunny2
sunny2
26 months ago: Altruist - You put it very clear and that is exactly what is happening. Anyone who can't see this is putting blinders on or backing a party because they themselves are niave. For some reason, they feel this loyalty to stand up for people they feel are stronger at the moment and that are crushing the little guy. These people feel they are siding with the winners. I think it is pretty stupid and will fall down on them eventually. These Republicans have to be voted out of office. It is obvious they are being controlled by big business and have forgotten our way of life.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
26 months ago: Sunny

It goes way beyond political party. Why do you think these changes weren't implemented during the Democratic domination of all aspects of out government? They had super majorities all around. Why? Because it isn't part of the master plan. Neither party cares about you. All they care about is their part in the "brave new world" that they hope will emerge from the ashes.
sunny2
sunny2
26 months ago: Box - Can you explain what you mean by "brave new world"? I really want to know what you visualize. I know neither party cares, but I don't care about them. They proved their allegiance, and it isn't for the people. I've known too many brave people who have given up their lives to protect this country. What do you see emerging from the ashes? This sounds like a James Rollins novel. America has been brave. Its people have been brave. What more is there that is going to make that reality miniscule to what seems to be out there in a distance for everyone else. What are you really for? I don't know what you advocate.
sunny2
sunny2
26 months ago: Box ....I'm not saying that the percentages shown aren't true. Where is it all going to get us though? Doesn't mean it is a good thing. There will be less taxes paid into the Government by the ordinary person because of higher unemployment last year. No jobs, no job creation and no one is even talking about it. I would hate for our Country to become similar to those where people have no work and begin begging as you see in 3rd World Countries. I'm sure you don't want that. We've come to far. Rich people bore me. They have nothing to say of value. I can't even imagine a new brave world coming out of the ashes. What is that all about? Are you saying the "Brave Rich" people took the ordinary guy down the street on and swallowed him up and chewed him up. Hoo Ray. I don't really believe it will come to that. People always rise to the occassion in this Country to protect it from greed. All I see are a bunch of gangsters. They must be so proud. I'm not even saying your entirely wrong. I just don't know what you are getting at or what you want this country to be.
Altruist
Altruist
Eugene, OR
26 months ago: OOTB may be correct that the top 10% pay 70% of income taxes but income taxes are only 42% of the revenue which means they are really paying only about 30% of the total taxes. The lower income people pay much more in Payroll taxes which the rich pay hardly any. Payroll taxes make up another 40% of total revenue. When you add property taxes state and local taxes the middle class pays a much higher percentage of what they earn for taxes than the rich.

What is really relevant is how much of your earnings go towards taxes. The top 10% make about 75% of of the gross income of the nation so yes it is fair that they pay a high percentage of income taxes because they own all of the money that there is to tax. Because most of the super rich make their money off from hedge funds and things like derivatives which are considered capital gains, which are taxed at 15% so the effective tax rates of the super rich is not 70% but closer to 20%. http://blogs.examiner.net/blogs/pensivep...
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
26 months ago: A picture is worth a thousand words

http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-...
sunny2
sunny2
26 months ago: Box - I really want to know what you care about. Besides percentages, what is important to you.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
26 months ago: What do I care about? Concretely speaking: first and foremost is God, and then family. Conceptually speaking: freedom, fairness, and personal responsibility.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
26 months ago: People like Altruist are so jealous of what others have accomplished. So the income gap has widened. So what? Does that mean that the average person is making less money?

The answer is a big fat no. The average hourly wage has increased 25% since 1997. Since 1950, the hourly wage has increased 1800%. Inflation, and the cost of living since 1950 is only 840%. So you can see clearly, that the situation of the working man is twice as good as it was 60 years ago.

You can't judge anything by the amount the top wage earners are taking home. They have simply developed new ways of generating capital that take nothing away from the average worker. If anything, you should look at it as free tax money, because they are paying taxes on money that didn't even exist, because they literally "made" the money, simply by moving it around. That's the way our monetary system works. Every time money is moved from a bank into the general circulation, it creates new money that wasn't there previously. Likewise, every time money is put back into a bank, it creates new money.

So Altruists assertations (that because some people are making obscene amounts of money the rest of the population is hurt) is totally false. Adjusting for inflation, people today make twice what they did 60 years ago.
sunny2
sunny2
26 months ago: Good... Me too.
Altruist
Altruist
Eugene, OR
26 months ago: What is even more deceptive is the corporate taxes. The corporate conservatives claim that the US corporate tax rate is very high compared to other nations and thus claim that they deserve tax breaks to compete internationally.

The fact is, that there are so many corporate tax loop holes that American corporations actually pay less in taxes than almost any other nation. Half of the corporations in the country pay no taxes and many corporations like Exon and other oil companies make record profits and are still getting huge subsidies from the government.

In 1954 corporations paid about 33% of the total revenue in the country. now they only pay about 7%.

What most people ignore is that while the Tax Foundation can juggle figures to make it look like the rich and the corporations are getting squeezed, most of that is just plain fiction because the rich and the corporations hide most of their income in off shore accounts which are not taxed at all. In addition to that they cheat on whatever taxes that are based on the bogus incomes they claim.

There is about $300 billion that could be recovered from tax cheats if the IRS had enough agents and backing to collect it. In fact political pressure is placed on the IRS not to collect taxes from the political friends of politicians. http://abcnews.go.com/Business/story?id=...

Under Bush the IRS was told directly not to concentrate on the rich or corporations (where most of the money was) and to concentrate on the middle class. Of course part of that may be that it is harder to collect from the rich and corporations because they can hire many more lawyers.
sunny2
sunny2
26 months ago: Box....... of course you do. So, then everyone or the majority of us have something in common. Then we should be a Team. By the way what is the average hourly wage at this moment? zero
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
26 months ago: For many people that is unfortunately true. We have a high unemployment rate, and those unemployed people have an income of zero, unless they have adapted and learned how to make money independently. My hourly wage is not zero. It is considerably more.
I take the unemployed into first consideration when hiring people to help me.
sunny2
sunny2
26 months ago: It's good that you have a livelihood that you are satisfied with. At least someone is hiring the unemployed. I wish more would.
sunny2
sunny2
26 months ago: It's good that you have a livelihood that you are satisfied with. At least someone is hiring the unemployed. I wish more would.

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