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Do you believe the lie?

Posted 17 months ago|64 comments|830 views
He died for you.
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My friend, do not be deceived, there is only one way, to Heaven. Satan does not want you to get there.

I do no care who they are, if they say that Jesus is not the only way, they LIE.

John 14:6. Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

John 10: Truly, truly, I say to you, He who does not enter into the sheepfold by the door, but going up by another way, that one is a thief and a robber.

Then Jesus said to them again, Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.

All who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them.

I am the door. If anyone enters in by Me, he shall be saved and shall go in and out and find pasture.

The thief does not come except to steal and to kill and to destroy. I have come so that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

I am the Good Shepherd. The Good Shepherd lays down His life for the sheep.

I have spent time going through each of these, especially for you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-ej7n7Nh...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xM5ILOsHL...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4MZWug3QA...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMNznfImU...

Jesus in not the only way, good presentation.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbAshoSGB...
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soulreaver
soulreaver
Los Angeles, CA
17 months ago: Mr. Edward Lee, do you truly believe- "literally" that Jesus is the ONLY way to salvation? Really?

So if that is the case, how do you explain when Christ said- "The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed; nor will they say 'Lo here it is!' or 'There!' for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.

Could you clarify this Mr. Lee? I would like to know the level of understanding of what your talking about?
17 months ago: Thank you for your question, but don't you think that the post gives a good agreement, for that statement.

Jesus in not the only way, good presentation.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbAshoSGB...

John 14:6. Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
soulreaver
soulreaver
Los Angeles, CA
17 months ago: Nope, I don't... You see for us simpleminded folks, like 97.9 % of the world maybe more, we see the world literally as it is and we need real teachers or masters to simplify things to the point where there is no doubt, that is the true mark of a great teacher. Not by reading, repeating or preaching about what was once written or said but by example.

It has been my experience that if you cannot simplify something, you don't understand it well enough.
soulreaver
soulreaver
Los Angeles, CA
17 months ago: And by simplify I mean in modern day terms, in order for your contemporaries to understand.
17 months ago: SR,

Here is a "simple" experiment... the Bible says:

For "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." Romans 10:13

Well, call on the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation and see what happens. Get back to us and let us know about your experience... not your presumption. Fair enough?
17 months ago: Man had it all, he had dominion of all the earth, he sined and the dominion transferred to Satan, man was now destined for Hell, which was created for Satan.

God had to send his Son Jesus, to die and most of all to rise from the grave, in so doing, in the name of Jesus and only Him, you will regain man's previous status with God, and have eternal life, in Heaven. That's it in a nutshell, I have many articles on the subject, click on my photo.
soulreaver
soulreaver
Los Angeles, CA
17 months ago: I have to admit that it all sounds great in Biblical terms... maybe, but if you talked to me like this in my early teens to late twenties I would have considered you another common Jesus worshiping Biblical freak who doesn't make any sense!

With all due respect- maybe you have a glimpse of what your talking about but with that mentality I would still doubt your word because of the lack of true communion.
skeptic
skeptic
Canada
17 months ago: Just a quick observation about theological relativism:
quotes from the New Testament prove that the only way to Heaven is through Jesus, quotes from the Qur'an prove that the only way to Heaven is through Mohammad, quotes from the Vedas prove that the only way to transcendence is through Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva (in their various incarnations), quotes from the copious writings of L. Ron Hubbard prove that the only path to salvation is through Scientology, and so forth. This is a very incomplete list. Choose your source, and you will arrive at your predetermined conclusion.
soulreaver
soulreaver
Los Angeles, CA
17 months ago: Hmm. Not very sexy or alluring... but direct.
17 months ago: Skeptic,

There is a vast difference between the teachers or gods you sited and Jesus...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qz8R2IRc3...

In the book "Cause for Christ" Lee Strobel outlines the main differences... and supportive real historic evidence... as apposed to "faith-based" reference.
17 months ago: @ Skeptic

Just a quick observation about theological relativism:
quotes from the New Testament prove that the only way to Heaven is through Jesus, quotes from the Qur'an prove that the only way to Heaven is through Mohammad, quotes from the Vedas prove that the only way to transcendence is through Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva (in their various incarnations), quotes from the copious writings of L. Ron Hubbard prove that the only path to salvation is through Scientology, and so forth. This is a very incomplete list. Choose your source, and you will arrive at your predetermined conclusion.

You are, unfortunately for your cause, wrong!

1) The only way to the Father is through Jesus. Don't Jump to any conclusions. If all you want is heaven but no Father and that is what your faith in Jesus is about then chances are you wont get heaven. Besides the Kingdom of God is promised to those that believe in Jesus not heaven.

2) Islam does not teach original sin. Obedience to Allah is a natural action for any Muslim who "does not forget" The objective of Islamic teaching and doctrine is to help the believer not to forget. Technically according to their belief one does not have to be Muslim to go to heaven, just not forget Allah. BTW: The hewaven of Islam is radically different than the Catholic heaven, which is radically different than the Protestant heaven, which is radically different tan the Mormon heaven.

3) Hinduism has no heaven. They have a quest to be one again with totality The atman in Brahman. This is why they practice polytheism. Their totality is sacred because it brings forth life not because it is a god. Individuality does not really exist to a Hindu. What does is the infinite permutations that manifest themselves in the observable. Devotion to any one of these permutations helps secure a firmer understanding of the ultimate totality which brings one closer to becoming part of that whole again. E.G. Incarnation and nirvana. There is no eternal reward for those that overcame sin because there is no God to give it and there is no sin to overcome.

4) Scientology has no heaven either. Just an eventual awakening to ones own real spiritual being. E.G. No corporal body! All ideas other than this to them are implanted fallacies to be ridden off.

What you have tried to do is homogenize the motivating factor of various religions by out right misrepresenting each and every one of them in order to give the impression that all paths have similar outcomes and therefore belief and disbelief in the particulars is irrelevant. However as I have just shown you, nothing could be further from the truth. Just by the partial list that you have provide I've demonstrated that only one religion promises something of consequence to those that seek a conscious, relevant and intellectually engaging eternity. In the future if you choose to show others why you believe as you do don't do it at the expense of over simplifying what others belief because it just shows your ignorance and casts doubt upon the validity of your own assertions.
17 months ago: Well S & S,

I am a student of experience... I tried everything from meditation to mantras... Lucifer to logic... drugs to drambuie... military to missionary work... junipers (trees) to Jesus... and I can tell you by what I know, Jesus Christ is God. You guys are all theoretical, philosophical and rhetorical... but one thing you lack is undeniable... a personal experience with God.

"But if you don't believe me when I tell you about earthly things, how can you possibly believe if I tell you about heavenly things?" John 3:12
soulreaver
soulreaver
Los Angeles, CA
17 months ago: "You guys are all theoretical, philosophical and rhetorical... but one thing you lack is undeniable... a personal experience with God." -Truthbrary

Mr. Truthbrary you say you're a student of experience which implies you're still learning from your experiences. So if you're a student, how can you set yourself as a master and be able to point out what other people lack? Sounds pretty superficial for someone to claim such personal insight without any depth of wisdom in their words.
17 months ago: SR,

One doesn't have to be "all knowing" in order to pass on insight.. one only needs to know by experience what they are talking about and the listener my choose to adhere or dismiss the information. I find it interesting that if I claim to be a teacher I'm egotistical.. if I claim to be a student I'm superficial... with all your advice... what are you?
soulreaver
soulreaver
Los Angeles, CA
17 months ago: Mr. Truthbrary there was no advise on my part but I did point to something rather egotistical. However if I answer your question under your terms that would imply the same error by which I pointed to. So in essence you already know the answer without dishonoring it with some name.

Such is your need for "sense of self" that would need this "dishonoring" in order to keep its place in such high regard (egotistical)... Since we don't know each other face to face you should be content that I'm a male human-being that you're corresponding to.
skeptic
skeptic
Canada
17 months ago: Truthbrary, naturally you as a Christian believe that Jesus is fundamentally different from all other teachers or gods, and that the divinity of Jesus is supported by real historic evidence, as compared to all the other religious leaders who are supported only by myth and legend. Evey religious person believes that their religion is the One True Faith, and believes that their religion is superior to all others, that their religious doctrine is supported by historical fact while all others are not. Everyone believes that. That's what your religion requires of you. If you didn't believe it, you could not be a member of that religion. But that does not make it true in any objective sense. Objective investigation has given us a picture of the world that does not rely on supernatural beings, but only upon the laws of nature. We also do not have any evidence which would support the hypothesis that the laws of nature are themselves of supernatural origin.
17 months ago: "Objective investigation has given us a picture of the world that does not rely on supernatural beings, but only upon the laws of nature. We also do not have any evidence which would support the hypothesis that the laws of nature are themselves of supernatural origin."

Authentic objective investigation has not validated or invalidated the existence or non-existence of the supernatural. It also has not dis-proven the possibility that the laws of nature are of no supernatural origin.

Laws with no Law-giver? Doesn't make sense.

Most folk who consider themselves objective in the natural, discount the possibility of a supernatural before their so-call "objectivity" even begins.

If we assume there was nothing in the natural at the beginning (2nd Law of thermodynamics anyone?), it only makes sense that there would have to be a possibility of something supernatural to bring it into existence in the first place.

No problem there, right?
17 months ago: Skeptic,

I can put words in my own mouth, thank you... however I don't question or berate the validity of another religion based on fact or fiction, but rather on my personal experience with them... and now with my Savior... and His definition of them.

"Therefore Jesus said again, "Very truly I tell you, I am the gate for the sheep. All who have come before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep have not listened to them. I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.[a] They will come in and go out, and find pasture. The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full." John 10:7-10
felix manow
felix manow
China
17 months ago: if you live right and in right way god look after you,lot western not doing and they bad and bad thing happen to them after die.
17 months ago: Thank you for your input Felix, it is not about the western world, it's about the better lifestyle, and not needing God like those that do not have what the Western World have.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, Truly, truly, I say to you, Unless a man is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Many read the Word of God but do not meditate on it.

The Word (Jesus) who is God that became flesh, and among dwelt with us.

Said, TRULY, TRULY, this is God speaking. He is saying it is absolute.
"Unless a man is born again, he CANNOT see the kingdom of God".

HOW ARE YOU BORN AGAIN?

Romans 10:9, "Because if you confess the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth one confesses unto salvation".

17 months ago: Jesus was laid in a manger because there was no room for Him. How solemnly this brings out the world's estimate of the Christ of God. There was no appreciation of His amazing condescension. He was not wanted. It is so still. There is no room for Him in the schools, in society, in the business world, among the great throngs of pleasure seekers, in the political realm, in the newspapers, nor in many of the churches.

It is only history repeating itself. All that the world gave the Savior was a manger, a cross on which to die, and a borrowed grave to receive His murdered body.

He was laid in a manger to demonstrate the extent of His poverty. "For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though He was rich, yet for your sakes He became poor, that you through His poverty might be rich" (2 Cor. 8:9). How "poor" He became, was thus manifested at the beginning.

The One who, afterwards, had nowhere to lay His head, who had to ask for a penny when He would reply to His critics about the question of tribute, and who had to use another man's house when instituting the Holy Supper, was, from the first, a homeless Stranger here. And the "manger" was the earliest evidence of t

He was laid in a manger to show His contempt for worldly riches and pomp. We might think it more fitting for the Christ of God to be born in a palace and laid in a cradle of gold, lined with costly silks. But as He Himself reminds us in this same Gospel, "that which is highly esteemed among men, is abomination in the sight of God" (Luke 16:15). And what an exemplification of this truth was given when the infant Saviour was placed, not in a cradle of gold but, in an humble manger.

He was laid in a manger to mark His identification with human suffering and wretchedness.
17 months ago: Maybe a little clarification is in order. When the new testament refers to salvation it is referring to the forgiveness of sin. Sin according to the Bible is transgression or disobedience of God's law as it was written in stone on mount Sinai by God himself, e.g. The Ten Commandments. The Kingdom of God begins from within because obedience has to be willing and personal. The Creator of heaven does not want or receives mandatory service. Obedience has to be voluntary and so as in any Kingdom, you are allied to the Kingdom whom you pledge allegiance to and are committed to.

Jesus is the only means of salvation because the human will is naturally anti-God. We are rebellious from birth. It is our genetic legacy from our first parents: Adam and Eve. Jesus as atonement for our sin is our bridge to God. He is what makes forgiveness for past sins possible and any future obedience feasible. Without him there is no way to connect ourselves to the Almighty. The first step to accepting membership into Gods Kingdom is by pledging faithfulness to the Creator through obedience to his laws. That is only possible by faith in the atonement for our sins, Jesus Christ.

The future Kingdom that most people including Christians imagine is the world remade without the deforming marks of sin, the world made new by the Creator. If we expect to wait until then to align ourselves by faith in Jesus to the Creator it will be to late. Everything will have already been decided by then. Basically, now is the acceptable time to decide, not later.
skeptic
skeptic
Canada
17 months ago: There is always a lot to say in these discussions, but allow me to reply to just one point made by Huey Newton, asking: "Laws with no Law-giver? Doesn't make sense."

The term "law of nature" is used by scientists in a metaphorical sense. We do not know of any judicial body or legal authority which has literally enacted those laws. We merely observe that certain things reliably happen in certain ways that can be described mathematically. It is as if some law compells them to do so. But we don't really know why the universe works that way; we merely observe that it does. Now to you it may be obvious that laws of nature must have been created by God, but that is hardly obvious to me, and no scientifically valid evidence has ever been presented in support of the hypothesis that laws of nature were decreed by God. I can't rule out the possibility that they were, but I am hardly going to accept that they were with no evidence in support of that hypothesis.

If there existed clear evidence about religious issues, then everyone in the world would belong to the same religion. As it is, anyone is free to believe in any kind of deity or other supernatural being or phenomenon that they like, to proclaim this as their relgion, and to conclude that they have the one and only true explanation of the laws of nature or of anything else that they wish to explain. The Flying Spaghetti Monster is exactly as believable as Yahweh the Omnipotent. You have no way to determine which is the more believable law-giver of the laws of nature. So, enjoy your spaghetti! It is a holy food.
17 months ago: @ Skeptic,

I find it fascinating that you chose to rebuttal that part of Huey's comment, instead of this one.

" If we assume there was nothing in the natural at the beginning (2nd Law of thermodynamics anyone?), it only makes sense that there would have to be a possibility of something supernatural to bring it into existence in the first place.
No problem there, right?"

Why is that?
17 months ago: We find and learn about God, with the Heart, not with the head, "If you search for God with all your heart you will find Him"

I understand why the things of God, simply does not make sense. When you know Him He will speak to you and answer you.

I know, still does not make sense.
17 months ago: "We find and learn about God, with the Heart, not with the head"

@Edward Lee,

Your above statement is emotional and inaccurate. It is one of the reasons why people doubt biblical authority. Everybody now knows that except for the new research being done on cellular memory that all cognitive activity happens in the brain. Our hearts are no more autonomous to make spiritual choices than they are to digest a meal. A better way of expressing that idea so that obvious facts are not ignored is as follows: "Faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen" believing in God does not begin with proof but with faith.
skeptic
skeptic
Canada
17 months ago: To Edward Lee, of course, no one is required to reason logically about God or about anything else. We always have the option of just believing what we feel like believing. That's why you believe in God, and I believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
17 months ago: Septic,

The difference is Ed truly believes in God; being a man of integrity expressing his understanding. You show your lack of integrity by a mock-faith in "the Flying Spaghetti Monster" expressing your foolishness.
skeptic
skeptic
Canada
17 months ago: Huey Newton has a number of logical challenges for me, and I feel like replying to another one of them, which is "if we assume there was nothing in the natural at the beginning (2nd Law of thermodynamics anyone?), it only makes sense that there would have to be a possibility of something supernatural to bring it into existence in the first place."

There are many aspects of the early history of the universe which remain mysterious, but it doesn't really help to invoke magical solutions. If you can't explain the existence of the universe, neither can you explain the existence of a deity who supposedly created the universe. Alternatively, if you see no need to explain why God exists, I see no reason to explain why the universe exists. Two can play at this game.

More seriously, why would it be that in a universe created by magic, we don't see magic playing a continued role? Scientists have found that all the natural phenomena that they have studied turn out to function according to mathematically decribable laws of nature, and not by magic. Earlier civilizations thought that EVERYTHING happened by magic, lightning was hurled by angry gods, etc., and we have gradually discovered scientific explanations for all of these things - yet you still want to believe that the universe was created by magic. Personally I do not find this to be very plausible.

Scientific research may never fully resolve the question of how the universe was created, and if so, then I will accept that I don't know. I believe that there was a Big Bang, but I don't know exactly what caused it. I am not forced to accept an unproven hypothesis that it must have been God.
17 months ago: @Skeptic,

There are many aspects of the early history of the universe which remain mysterious, but it doesn't really help to invoke magical solutions.

Sounds like an outright dismissal of the challenge posted by Huey. Doesn't it?

Basic algebra here: If A=B & B=C then A=C
You can't say that something was made if it doesn't have a maker just like you can't say something did not exist if it obviously does. Matter, energy, life, natural laws, its source, if we were talking about an inorganic mechanical device we would not be having this discussion but because the mechanisms are organic and predate human knowledge then all of a sudden it means "invoking magical solutions"? Ha! Not likely!
17 months ago: The question is, does the Flying Spaghetti Monster love you? see this. http://www.pocketpower.org/sharing/umbre...
skeptic
skeptic
Canada
17 months ago: Edward Lee, I looked at your link, which tells me about what the bible says. I am familiar with the bible. It is possible to find insight, wisdom, poetry, and inspiration in the bible, but the bible remains nonetheless a work of mythology rather than an accurate historical record of anything.

I like to think that the Flying Spaghetti Monster does love me. In any event, I definitely love spaghetti, which give me a meaningful connection to the Flying Spaghetti Monster. I imagine that you have a meaningful connection to Jesus, but the point remains that in matters of religion, there is no objectively true religion, there are only individual choices that we make, or that are imposed upon us by our parents, teachers, clergy, or in some countries by the religious police. If I lived in an Islamic country, I would never dare to criticise Islam because that is a crime punishable by death. While this does not prove that Islam is the one true faith, it does tend to silence critics.

Christianity was, at one point in its history, equally repressive. The historical period in which the Church dominated every aspect of life in Europe is still known as the Dark Ages. Scientific research was sometimes punished by death (as in the case of Giordano Bruno). Why do any research when all the answers are in the bible? This attitude is what caused the Dark Ages to be so dark. It is not a recommendation of organized religion.
17 months ago: "Scientific research may never fully resolve the question of how the universe was created, and if so, then I will accept that I don't know. I believe that there was a Big Bang, but I don't know exactly what caused it. I am not forced to accept an unproven hypothesis that it must have been God."

That's fair.

When we talk about where everything in the material universe came from and how it all originated it boils down to a matter of faith no matter how you slice it.

If an individual wants to worship a flying spaghetti monster, go for it. I however, believe that there is a better way.

That being said, a coded messages from space would provide evidence of a possible intelligent source to the "scientific" community, yet DNA does not? Absurd. Honest and truly objective scientists at least admit to the possibility.

Don't spill the marinara, it's hot.
skeptic
skeptic
Canada
17 months ago: To Truthbrary, I thought we were having a civil discussion; your recent comment that "The difference is Ed truly believes in God; being a man of integrity expressing his understanding. You show your lack of integrity by a mock-faith in "the Flying Spaghetti Monster" expressing your foolishness" is very offensive. My belief in the Flying Spaghetti Monster is as sincere and meaningful as is Ed's faith in God or anybody's faith in anything. We are all free to decide what is deserving (or undeserving) of our faith. When you ridicule my belief in the Flying Spahetti Monster you are showing yourself to be religiously intolerant and bigoted. Fie upon thee, I say. Fie!
skeptic
skeptic
Canada
17 months ago: To Huey Newton, While we may hypothesize that there are hidden messages encoded in our DNA, they have not been decoded yet. Hence, the hypothesis remains unconvincing. DNA patterns are very well explained by Darwin's theory of evolution. Specific evolutionary requirements lead to specific DNA sequences which produce specific proteins which solve specific biological problems which advances the evolution of the organism. Other DNA sequences which are not directly expressed in the form of protein synthesis are known to play a role in activating or deactivating other DNA sequences, and still other DNA sequences appear to be the result of viral infection, and are therefore a kind of biological accident. So far we haven't seen anything that looks like an actual message. That doesn't mean we will never figure out a way to extract a message from DNA, but until we do I am going to remain skeptical about that possibility. It's a bit like astrology. Are there messages written in the stars? I think that the stars are arranged at random. You can assign meaning to that random pattern, but it's a fantasy. The stars are not trying to tell us something by the way they are arranged in the night sky. And neither is our DNA sequence.
17 months ago: I nice to finally converse with a skeptic who admits that they exercise faith in believing certain things that are yet unproven. That is a breath of fresh air.

My point with DNA was not so much as looking for a message in it, but understanding that it is highly improbable that the information it contains is the result of a random accident. Information and instructions come from intelligence not from material processes.

That being said, the big question then arises as to who or what the source of the information is. On that we all have to make our own personal determinations.
skeptic
skeptic
Canada
17 months ago: Dwayne Johnson, I originally decided not to reply to the argument relating to the 2nd law of thermodynamics simply because I have to be selective; I can't really afford to spend all of my time in theological debate on this web-site. I discuss the points that interest me the most. However, I did later decide to reply to it, and my reply appears above. I hope you find it interesting. But I make no guarantee that I will reply to every question raised in this discussion or any other discussion. I can only spend so much time on this.
17 months ago: @Skeptic,
That is fair enough. I did notice it later on as I kept reading. Sorry for the oversight and I did find it interesting enough to respond to. Thanks and enjoy!
skeptic
skeptic
Canada
17 months ago: Huey Newton, the information in DNA is not the result of a random accident! It is the result of billions of years of biological evolution. This phenomenon is fully explained in a book that I have recommended previously in this discussion, entitled "The Blind Watchmaker" by Richard Dawkins.
Content Removed by Huey Newton
17 months ago: Dawkins is one of the chief culprits who attempt to turn science into mythology.

Some ask to prove God. Prove billions of years of biological evolution creating codes and information. Prove that the universe just sprung into existence on it's own. Non-sense in the highest order but dogma to some.

To each his own.
17 months ago: Also, a better read than Dawkins is "Creator and Cosmos" by Hugh Ross.

I don't subscribe to everything he states either, but at least he's on the right track and doesn't have an axe to grind.
skeptic
skeptic
Canada
17 months ago: Dwayne Johnson, I am going to comment on the concluding portion of your recent comment in which you say " In the future if you choose to show others why you believe as you do don't do it at the expense of over simplifying what others belief because it just shows your ignorance and casts doubt upon the validity of your own assertions." I was very careful about how I phrased that statement to which you object so strenuously and so inaccurately. I did not say that all those various religions present their own way to get to heaven or how to reach the Father; I said, for example, that in Hinduism, transcendence was reached on through Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva. Transcendence. That is not the same thing as going to heaven. Read my comment again.

The fact that you then conclude that I am ignorant and that my assertions are invalid, is typical of the way theological debate is often conducted by religious fanatics. First, misconstrue what was said, then conclude that the person with whom you are arguing is ignorant. This is also formally known as the straw man technique. You are not even engaging me in an argument, you are constructing a straw man and arguing with him. How foolish for the straw man to say that Hindus have their own way to get to heaven! Hindus don't even believe in heaven! That straw man sure is a fool. How cleverly you prove him wrong. Too bad you accuse me of being that straw man.

If this is how you intend to debate, then I really should not be wasting my time on you. Don't be surprised if I fail to reply to your next comment.
skeptic
skeptic
Canada
17 months ago: Regarding your rejction of my interpretation that the creation of the universe by God was magical in nature, of course I could also imagine a non-magical or scientific means of creating a universe. Maybe a sufficiently high-energy collision in a particle accelerator will create a universe. Of course, if the universe was created that way, we would hardly call the creator God. the creator would be a technician, having no particularly divine attributes and having nothing to do with God as normally defined or conceived. I sometimes speculate that the universe we live in was created in another universe as a high school science experiment. That is just as believable or, if anything, more believable than the story of Genesis. So, the creation of the universe neeed not be magical, but if it isn't magical then it does not involve anyone who would deserve to be called the Supreme Being or God.
17 months ago: Dwayne Johnson, you are absoloutly correct, faith come from the Heart and the Spirit, no with the head, you have to search with your head, the first thing that I did, when God revealed Himself to me that I used my head to research and know Him, but it was with the heart that I excepted, we are Spirit, we have a Soul, we live in a body, the Soul is influanced by the flesh or the Spirit, the Spirit becomes stronger, by (1) receiveing the Holy Spirit, and reading the word of God.

By using every temptation as an opportunity to go to a higher level, the Spirit becomes stronger and the Soul which makes the decisions, resist the flesh, and we become more like Christ, he that overcomes the flesh will win the prize.
17 months ago: The Pocket Testament League has, for 115 years, motivated thousands of Christians to read, carry and share the Word of God. Started as the vision of a teenage girl named Helen Cadbury in 1893, The Pocket Testament League provides resources to help empowering believers develop a lifestyle of personal evangelism. We also encourage those who have a heart to support others who are sharing their faith, through a unique sponsorship program in which sponsors actually receive feedback from those they sponsor showing how lives are being changed.

Our members have shared more than 100 million Gospels during the history of this Christian outreach ministry, forever changing millions of lives around the world. The ministry is designed to equip Christians who are serious about sharing their faith with others.

Please call me for a meeting,

In His Service,

The Pocket Testament League

Speaker Representative

Edward Lee
edlee@elpmedia.com

Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1rOhNCGG...
skeptic
skeptic
Canada
17 months ago: I am going to reply to this challenge from Huey Newton: "Prove billions of years of biological evolution creating codes and information. Prove a universe that just sprung into existence on it's own." In the first case, we have really good proof in the form of Darwin's theory of evolution and the vast body of research which supports that theory. In the second case, I have already said that I do not know the cause of the Big Bang. The universe may or may not have sprung into existence on its own, and if something caused it to spring into existence we do not know what it was (despite all religious pronouncements about the supposed First Cause). And furthermore, as I have previously noted, if you have no difficulty with a God who came into existence on his own, why should the same principle of self-creation not apply to the universe? If the existence of the universe is mysterious and unexplained, the existence of God is even more so. Where does God come from? You can't say. You don't care. Your faith protects you from inconvenient questions. Anyway, it is somewhat pointless for me to even enter into a debate with religious people such as yourself. Faith is immune to reason. Hallelujah!

To Truthbrary who tells me that he can put words into his own mouth, you sure can, and into mine as well. Nice work, your truthiness.

Richard Dawkins is a well respected evolutionary scientist, he is not a culprit. The fact that he opposes your religious dogma is merely a reflection of honesty on his part. Some truths are worth stating, even if they offend people. Indeed, there is no progress without the willingness to reconsider established dogma. Without freedom of thought we would still be in the Dark Ages. (And some people still are.)

Anyway, no doubt you have further arguments and weighty biblical quotations to present, but I am not going to waste any more of my time with this discussion. Bye bye and have fun. Believe whatever you like.
17 months ago: "if you have no difficulty with a God who came into existence on his own, why should the same principle of self-creation not apply to the universe? If the existence of the universe is mysterious and unexplained, the existence of God is even more so. Where does God come from? You can't say. You don't care. "

Shows how little you know about me or what I believe. It's also quite absurd for you to theorize about what I care or don't care about.

Nothing cannot create something and matter is not eternal. The universe had a beginning and a cause. The only cause that could have created it would have to be a causeless cause or that which is eternal and has no beginning. You really need to think things through. You need to decide for yourself what that cause was and not dismiss it as unknowable. I love to tackle "inconvenient questions."

As for Dawkins, he does not have the answers. He's smart, but he''s also mis-directed. He is also a huckster with so many biases that he cannot be truly objective. It's a shame because he does a disservice to science by teaching it as a religion and not as an investigative discipline and evolution as a proven fact versus an unproven theory which often times has trouble getting out of its own way.

You say faith is immune to reason, yet previously you admitted that you exercise it in your understanding of how things came to be. How does that work?

From the sound of things, you are just as "religious" as I am.

I'll be around if you want to continue the discussion.
17 months ago: Skeptic. Are you telling me that you believe that there was a big bang, and presto everything simple fell into place? "give me a break" You have been going to, too many magic shows.

The only trouble is that I walk in the Supernatural and experience the power of God every day, I am a very happy camper, no MORE stress, no unhappiness, I would like you to experience the joy of the Lord.
17 months ago: You have a good point Skeptic. It is a mystery to me that when did God come into Resistance, and how can He deal so personal with all of His Sheep? I know that He deals very personally with me, I have had some major miracles in my live, God has spoken to me three times, and have spoken to me at least 30 times through other Christians, and almost every week through His Word. (When I read the Bible)

The furthest I could trace God back is. NEXT...
17 months ago: There were 3 Ark Angels: Lucifer, Gabriel and Michael they were each in charge of a third of God's the angles Lucifer held a double office he was both an Ark & a cherub, the angel holder of light in charge of praise and worship to the Godhead. Lucifer was a part of the Government of Heaven along with the Godhead the Ark angels Gabriel and Michael, you walked before the throne of God playing songs of worship you were magnificently created with beauty and musical instruments built within your being.


Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; you have spoiled your wisdom because of your brightness. I will cast you to the ground; I will put you before kings, that they may behold you. By the host of your iniquities, by the iniquity of your trade, you have profaned your holy places; so I brought a fire from your midst; it shall devour you, and I will give you for ashes on the earth, before the eyes of all who see you. All who know you among the peoples shall be astonished at you; you shall be terrors, and you will not be forever.

Isaiah 14:6: who struck peoples in wrath, a blow without turning away, ruling the nations in anger, a persecution without restraint.

Isaiah 37:26: Have you not heard from afar? I made it from days of old, even I have formed it. Now I have caused it to come, and you are to cause fortified cities to crash into heaps, ruins.
17 months ago: God Destroyed The Earth

God in His anger completely destroyed the Earth leveling the cities and the mountains along with all of it's inhabitants and then God removed the sun and the moon and the stars and the Earth became a frozen mass hanging in space.

Isaiah 24:1: Behold, the LORD maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof.

Hebrews 12:26: whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, "Yet once more I will not only shake the earth, but also the heavens."

Isaiah 24:4 - 6: The earth mourneth and fadeth away, the world languisheth and fadeth away, the haughty people of the earth do languish. The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant. Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.

Isaiah 14:9-17: Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.

Job 9:5: Which removeth the mountains, and they know not: which overturneth them in his anger.

Job 9:6 - 7: Which shaketh the earth out of her place, and the pillars thereof tremble. Which commandeth the sun, and it riseth not; and sealeth up the stars.
17 months ago: Then we come to Glennis 1

The Fear of the Lord is the beginning of Wisdom. Answer to your question is, I don't know, but I am certain 100% that He is real and that the Bible is a living Word from our creator, all others were mere men and sinners.

If God could be easily figured out, He would not be God. He has giving us more than enough, now have faith and believe, be happy, don't worry!
Content Removed by Edward Lee
17 months ago: You have a good point Skeptic. It is a mystery to me that when did God come into EXISTENCE (Correction) also GENESIS. I am not the greatest speller, and I write to fast, my fingers cannot keep up with my brain.
skeptic
skeptic
Canada
17 months ago: I withdrew from this discussion because I had reaced the point of being accused of lacking integrity, and of being foolish and ignorant, none of which is true, and which suggested to me that the discussion had become too nasty for me to want to continue with it. More recent comments have raised some issues without attacking me personally, so I am going to respond to them, although not with any real expectation of changing anyone's mind about anything. I consider this to be an intellectual exercise.

On the issue of faith, I have suggested that I could have faith in the Flying Spaghetti Monster as easily as I could in any other supernatural being, which is an attempt to make the point that since faith does not require evidence or reasoning, we are all free to have faith in anything we like, nor can our faith be disproven. Therefore, we should be very careful when we choose to have faith, because we need a quality control mechanism with which to ensure that our faith is well placed. I would describe my philosophy as basically pragmatic. In terms of pragmatism, it is science that gives us real solutions, not religion. People pray constantly for divine intervention, and although they often find ways to interpret events in such a way as to conclude that they have indeed received it, there are no convincing cases that could not be coincidental. For example, you want sunny weather tomorrow, so you pray for sunny weather tomorrow, and behold, the weather tomorrow turns out to be sunny. But then, maybe it would have been sunny even if you had not prayed, how would you know? You may want sunny weather for your picnic, while the local farmer needs rain for his crop. You both pray for the weather you want but God is not going to satisfy both of you - it is going to be either sunny or rainy, not both. Or you are sick, and you pray that you recover, and you do recover. But you might have recovered anyway. (To be continued.)
skeptic
skeptic
Canada
17 months ago: I do make some assumptions, such as the one pointed out by David Hume, that the future will resemble the past in all appropriate respects. I can't prove that, but I do accept it. This is very different from accepting that there is an all-powerful being who created the universe, who wants me to worship him, and so forth as elaborated by various religions. Thousands of years of devoted and continual prayer seem to have done little to improve the lot of the human race. Hundreds of years of scientific research and development have utterly altered the lot of the human race, as we are demonstrating even by this very discussion, which takes place by means of technology, not religion. I get a much better result by typing my message into a computer, than I would get by praying for God to deliver it by magic. You might argue that God simply has more important things to do, but I don't really see the evidence of that either. As far as I can determine, God, if such a being even exists, is leaving the problems of the human race for we humans to solve for ourselves.

Edward Lee tells us that he has had 3 major miracles in his life. I don't know what they are, but I do find it odd that God has the time to perform 3 major miracles for the benefit of Mr. Lee while he did not exert himself to prevent the September 11th, 2001 terrorist attack, the AIDS epidemic, the recent earthquake in Haiti, and numerous other disasters which killed or harmed many pious and religious people who also prayed for divine intervention. God is, at best, rather arbitrary in his decisions. But then, you may traditionally argue, that God has a mysterious plan unknown to our feeble human intellects which are so much less than his. This seems like a weirdly complicated arument when it would be much simpler to conclue that God simply is not helping us. And frankly, there are many cases (such as 9/11) where I simply do not believe that good will ultimately result from the evil event by some mysterious means known only to God. My intellect is not that feeble.
skeptic
skeptic
Canada
17 months ago: Huey Newton tells us that the universe would have had to be created by a causeless cause. That may well be true, although cosmology is still being researched and there may be other ways of approaching the issue. But let's say it's true. Why would God have to be that causeless cause? Maybe the Big Bang is the causeless cause. If God does not need to have a cause, why would the Big Bang require a cause? Alternatively, if you cannot believe that the Big Bang could have happened without a cause, why is it believable that God would exist without a cause? Perhaps that is the result of God's magical powers, but then, we get back to the mystery of why we live in a universe in which there is no evidence of magic, and all things seem to operate on the basis of the laws of nature. Magic is not a very convincing explanation of why God would have always existed without having any cause. Even magical spells have to be cast by someone, right? All things have causes, even magical things.

Even if God as always existed (therefore never needing to actually come into existence) there should still be some reason why God exists. Things don't exist for no reason, do they? And again, if God can exist for no reason, so can the universe. Perhaps the universe has always existed in some form. The Big Bang happened less than 14 billion years ago, but that doesn't mean that the universe did not exist prior to that time, it just means that the universe did not exist in its present form. You have asserted that matter is not eternal, but that is just an assertion. Maybe matter is eternal. Indeed, the law of conservation of mass-energy suggests that it is.

Your assertion that Richard Dawkins does a disservice to science by teaching it as a religion is very bizarre. Have you read any of his books? His reasoning is entirely scientific and is not religious in nature. You also accuse him of bias, but the only bias I detect in Richard Dawkins is a bias toward truth.
17 months ago: More insight on my perspective.

http://www.rantrave.com/Rave/On-the-Issu...

It got too long to include on this thread.
17 months ago: skeptic, thank you for your questions, I believe that you are being truthful, and that you are searching for a believable explanation. I have been very open in telling my testimony, and have many posted on Rant Rave. I am tied up for a few days but I will get back to you.

http://www.rantrave.com/Rant/How-foolish...
http://www.rantrave.com/Rave/BAPTISM.asp...
http://www.rantrave.com/Rant/BAPTISM-OF-...
http://www.rantrave.com/Rant/Why-I-am-Sh...
http://www.rantrave.com/Rant/How-I-was-B...
http://www.rantrave.com/Rant/Adultery.as...
http://www.rantrave.com/Rant/How-to-over...
http://www.rantrave.com/Rave/Israel-in-p...

Supernatural 1 to 14
http://www.rantrave.com/Rave/GODS-SUPERN...
skeptic
skeptic
Canada
17 months ago: Science has explained a lot of things, although not everything. That is understandable, because scientific research is not something that happens all at once, it is an ongoing process. There is a lot to investigate, since the subject of scientific research includes the whole universe and everything in it. Every day there are new observations and new analyses of a wide variety of phenomena. Meanwhile, although some large questions remain, there is a coherent scientific view of how the universe works. In that sense, I am not searching for a believable explanation, I already have one.

You may think of me as a lost soul who is seaching for God and having great difficulty in finding him, but that is not really the case. I have found science and I am happy with what I have found, because science gets excellent results and has proved its usefulness. Whereas, those who depend upon divine intervention are often disappointed, although they then console themselves with the explanation that God works in mysterious ways and we do not always understand his actions (or inactions) and decisions. This leaves you with a mysterious and incomprehensible universe. That is not satisfactory.

If you believe that you can bring me around to your way of thinking, Mr. Lee, I have to tell you that your chances are remarkably poor. I will read your comments, nonetheless. I don't mind discussing these matters.
17 months ago: Skeptic, No amount of logic, reasoning, or information will make you believe. If you truly want to know God you are going to have to step out to meet His Son in faith."

The best proof, is
(1) My testemony
(2) In my Article, Israel in proficiency, all has been fulfilled, even now the sign are becoming more apparent, bad weather conditions, pestilences, earthquakes, all over the world. the Bible tells that a peace agreement will be signed for seven years, that will be the beginning of the Tribulation, the peace agreement will be broken 3.5 years into it and that will be the start of the Great Tribulation, what and see.
skeptic
skeptic
Canada
17 months ago: No doubt it is true that if I want to know God that will require an exercise of faith on my part, but then, I never said that I wanted to know God, who is, as far as I can determine, a mythical being. Knowing God is like knowing unicorns.

I would also point out that such things as bad weather, pestilence, earthquakes, peace agreements, violations of peace agreements, etc., have existed throughout human history. The fact that they exist now is hardly miraculous or even surprising. The problems of the 21st century do seem to be unusually complex and difficult. That is mainly related to the increased human population and the environmental strain that human activities have been causing. I do expect that some kind of great trubulation is coming, but not a supernatural tribulation, just the tribulation that comes from the gross mismanagement of the world upon which we live. In other words, the human race has messed up and will pay the price. This does not require, and will not involve, any supernatural agency. It's just the way the world works.

But as you say, we can wait and see. I expect that the coming years of this century are going to be extremely interesting.
skeptic
skeptic
Canada
17 months ago: Huey Newton, I will swtich to the new discussion that you have started.
17 months ago: Skeptic, Huey will give you another prospective.
17 months ago: He got it.

Thanks Ed.

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