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Croatia, Serbia Their Art and Conflict

Posted 34 months ago|82 comments|2,668 views
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Rudi Stettner
 Moderator
Years ago when I visited Zagreb, capitol of Croatia, I became acquainted with Croatian Naive art, which became famous in the 1930's as a local variant of folk painting. It frequently showed pastoral scenes, although the influence of the modern age can be seen in some paintings of this genre. The most famous Croatian naive painter is Ivan Generalic.

I was curious to know whether or not Croatia's neighbour, Serbia also had naive art that was comparable such art from Croatia. What I found on Google was remarkable. Serbian naive art is remarkably similar to that of Croatia, dealing with pastoral themes with an edge that at times seems to be from from another world. Anyone who is familiar with the Serbian and Croatian languages would not be surprised at this. Indeed, a mere twenty five years or so ago, they were referred to as Serbo-Croatian, one language with a hyphenated name and two alphabets.

The hatred and bloody warfare between Croatia and Serbia has created a formidable rift that knocked the hyphen out of Serbo Croatian and redefined them as totally separate. Serbs nurse grudges of Croatian perfidy during World War Two. And Croats resent keenly the political dominance of Serbia during the Tito years from 1945 until his death in 1980. During the 1990's , the bloody civil war that ripped Bosnia, Croatia and Serbia leaves a collective psyche in the region that still bears ugly scars.

Being of Croatian and of Jewish ancestry, this history of conflict in the region touches me deeply. The closeness of the languages of the two countries seems to hint at a deeper link between the two countries. When I look at Croatian and Serbian naive art, this feeling is inescapable that the ancestors of those who have fought in recent years might have once been brothers.

As a child of intermarriage, the image of a table divided by faith is a personal one. I have sat at a table with ham on one end and kosher food on the other. It is from this experience that I try to imagine the first generation in which brothers embraced different faiths, when one brother would name his child Hasan and the other would name his child Ivan. As a Jew, it is hard for me to imagine Eastern Orthodox Christians and Roman Catholics willing to kill each other over theological differences that to a Jew seem trifling.

Sometimes peace must come from abroad. In America, Serbs and Croats have lived together in areas where they live in close proximity. Gandhi developed his sense of an Indian identity that transcended caste and local nationality while working in South Africa in the early part of the twentieth century.

Cuisine too has a way of transcending borders. Turkish coffee is also called Greek coffee. I had always assumed that baklava is Greek. Others tell me that is in fact Arab. I would like to see a map of the world drawn according to how people make coffee or if they prefer tea over coffee.

I am very familiar with the passions that have driven Serbs and Croats apart and shredded the map of Bosnia Herzegovina. At the same time, the prism of linguistic and artistic similarities is captivating to me as well. I hope that some day that this vision of Balkan similarities be apparent to those who are gripped by the passions of the region.

The ravages of war in the region have left much to be forgiven. Perhaps some day the scars on the Balkan lanscape and psyche will fade from the beautiful face of that tormented region. I look back to the home of my mother's ancestors with sadness. As a Jew, as an American, I feel like I have stepped back from a beautiful painting and discerned its beauty from afar. Perhaps one day the descendants of the brothers who once broke bread together will sit together yet again.

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There was a movie E Moj Druze Beogradski about a romance in which the boy was a Serb and the girl was a Croat. The video below is of a song from the movie. even if you, like me do not understand the literal meaning of the words, the images tell a compelling story.
Reprinted with permission from Magdeburgerjoe.com
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34 months ago: Wow, what a stupidity of the article writer who demagogically desplay his Jewish origin, judging in the same time someones need to be Croat, Serb, or to speak 2 similar but different languages?! Arrogance & unknowledge is just a little to say about his false work! Nothing mentioned about Greater Serbia doctrine and over 100,000 deads as the result of Serbian agression in Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina? Of course, Croats and Serbs live in harmony abroad, e.g. in USA, but there doesn't exist serbian political, religious and cultural/artistic/linguistic imperialism... Croats and Serbs are not brothers, they are 2 very ancient and very different peoples. Finally, Mr. Rudi, shame on you, you forgot your own mother's/Croatian language! Musical video is NOT about Serbian boy and Croat girl. More saddly, as an "intelectual" and half Croatian, you even don't now the flag of your mother's country/Croatia :( The song lyrics go: Nice Belgrade(Serbia) girls how (good) you knew to kiss... I still remember blond hairs, my girlies from Novi Sad(Vojvodina, Serbia)... I have drive to her (my darling) near Danube River and Sava River, (where) with hundred villages I fell in love, oh how I felt happy... Eh, my Belgrade comrade, we knew all the serbian songs, and we sang together the (Croatian) song "Greetings to you Holly Lady, the Croatian Queen", before the (last) war. Eh, my Belgrade comrade, there are burning villages in Slavonia/Croatia, eh my Belgrade comrade, it is impossible (now for you) to go on the (Adriatic) sea. Eh my Belgrade comrade, we'll meet each near Sava River, you'll not recognise me, so you'll shoot to me. I'll admit you your first bullet, let you (Serbs) be the first. The second bullet I'll forgive you, and the third bullet will miss me. I'll not aim at you, praying the God to miss you, but I'll shoot you. I'll mourn you and close your eyes. Oh how sad I was when I lost my comrade ooooh, ooooh oooooh
Rudi Stettner
Rudi Stettner
 Moderator
34 months ago: First, thank you for giving me a more accurate translation of the lyrics. I did indeed get the flags bass ackwards. The general point does remain that one was Serb and the other Croat. Such international romances are less thinkable nowadays.
No I do not know Croatian. Just enough to say good morning, thank you and to get slapped across the face. Pseudo intellectual? You definitely know more about the region and language than I do. My own family tree has yield many more questions than answers. Were my ancestors Romanian, Turkish or perhaps Serbian? No one who researched the family tree was able to come to solid conclusions. Serbian and Croatian are certainly close linguistically. What would the DNA say? How do two different "races"end up in the same language group?
Am I "demagogic" as you say? I have children who look amazingly like their Croatian grandmother. When I saw pictures of refugees during the war, it broke my heart. I felt like I was looking at pictures of my own children. I do not want anyone who loves their children as I do mine to lose them to hatred. Be proud, Be prejudiced. OK. But without bloodshed.
(continued to next comment)
Rudi Stettner
Rudi Stettner
 Moderator
34 months ago: There was a strain in my posting of genuine dishonesty. Frankly, the history of Jews in Croatia in the 20th century was not a happy chapter. The brutality of the Croats in Jasenovac concentration camp is well known. Their sadism and brutality even repulsed the Germans. It is difficult for me as a Jew to look at the Croatian checkerboard emblem without thinking of the Croatian state that existed between 1941 and 1945. My mother's family is a living reminder that there are decent Croats, but the atrocities perpetrated against Jews and Serbs took a large number of perpetrators. I avoid thinking too much about what happened in Croatia during the war. Croatian naive art, Croatian pop music and snippets of cuisine and linguistics make up a Croatia in my mind in which people at least differ with civility or celebrate their differences.
The more I read and learn of Serbia, Croatia and Bosnia, the more I marvel at the vastness of my ignorance.
My posting was a heartfelt wish for a future free of bloodshed. It certainly contained inaccuracies not the least of which was my glossing over WW2 history. There was I assure you no malice intended. I thank you for the humbling corrections and clarifications you made.
Hvala lepo.
(Thank you)
34 months ago: International romances do in fact exist - even more so in deeply divided areas of the world including Croatia/serbia - to think otherwise is just foolish. Some of your text above is good but you do need to perform more research prior to posting something like this. You should not try to decipher a song that was writ and sung in a language you do not understand - why .... because you'll get almost everything wrong like you did above (as Jarilo pointed out). Yes is was a love song but it was intended to be a pacifist patriotic song which I disagree with as its a pacifist song only and was always meant as one.

Please look past your chosen religious beliefs (jewish) and realize that there will always be people whom have been and will remain ignorant/hateful/brutal/etc. This was indeed the case in WWII from many sides and in this case that of Pavelic's followers. You need to be reminded that the Grb (the checkered flag you refer to) predates these events, that man, and the atrocities that happened than. The Croat's always were and remain to be a loving, accepting, and peaceful homogeneous people from our origins in Perian to our final destination in Hrvatska.

If what you say is true - you are an ethnic Croat and an American national ....... that's all that needs to be considered from here on out. Religion should never be associated with any given people (race) as it has only been successful in doing one thing, dividing humans from day one.

Zivila!



~Josip
Rudi Stettner
Rudi Stettner
 Moderator
34 months ago: Very thoughtful comments. I have always been proud of my Croatian and my Jewish ancestry. My understanding of the song was indeed flawed. I did however get the pacifist part ofthe song right.The Serb and Croat documentary footage in the middle of the song had me in tears. I believe I understood the intent of the artist. Where I fell short was that the lyrics were not so cerebral or philosophical. Having mixed ancestry has deeply influenced my view of the world and deepened my commitment to an America and a world free of religious and ethnic hatred. My exposure to Judaism has been more thorough and systematic. My image of Croatia and the Balkans was put together on the fly and dominated by family anecdotes of life in America. I disagree about religion. I feel that if a person wants to twist it into a rationale for hatred then they will find a way to do so.
My mother's family was very accepting, kind and decent. My grandfather had a fourth grade education in Croatia, followed by hard work and a stint in the Austro Hungarian navy. He would not allow the "n" word to be uttered in his presence.This was back in the thirties when things were different. I do indeed have strong prejudices, but I set them aside when a my experiences with a person provide a more accurate impression.
Thank you for your thoughtful comments. I do indeed have much to learn. Croatia and Bosnia as well as Serbia are always in my thoughts.

Zivila
Rudi
34 months ago: Sigh - get one thing straight .... judaism is a religion that's chosen ..... its not an ancestry. Your heritage is the only ancestry you have .... you should perform a DNA test to see what part of the world you originated from. If your test comes back that your haplogroups originate from ancient Persia .... than you can rest assured that your Croat identity is an accurate one.

http://www.iranchamber.com/history/articles/identity_croatians_ancient_iran.php
Rudi Stettner
Rudi Stettner
 Moderator
34 months ago: I never knew about the Persian Croatian connection. This may sound real stupid, but could that be why I like watching Iranian movies? As far as the absence of a bloodline in Judaism, I would have to partially disagree. Conversion is possible and accounted for in the Jewish tradition. But there is a historic bloodline that is a strong component of Jewish identity.Additionally, there are limits to what DNA can reveal, although it has a promising future. I am interested in comparative DNA studies of Jews from Arab countries, Ashkenazim and members of the Samaritan faith community in Israel.
I would like to know more about Dalmatian, a romance language that reportedly died out in the 19th century. What about the proximity of Italy? Did that influence the Croatian gene pool? One of the things I like about a monarchy is that loyalty to the reigning monarch bridges and transcends ethnic divisions. That is one reason I chose a picture of Emperor Franz Josef of blessed memory as my avatar.
33 months ago: Rudi:"The general point does remain that one was Serb and the other Croat.Such international romances are less thinkable nowadays".No,you really haven't the capability to catch the meaning of this patriotic/pacifist/cynical song.Croat rock songwriter sings the song to his Belgrade male comrade/collegaue about his prewar sexual adventures with the Serbian GIRLS.What romance u c in it?Rudi:"No I do not know Croatian".Just enough to say good morning..."So,dobro jutro(good morning),Rudi.Well,how u can comment the croatian song lyrics?!A little child understands the video:girl's role isn't the role of a Serbian girl,but the role of Croatian girl who joins her Croatian boy to go fight Serb terrorists&agressors for Croatia's freedom.Rudi:"My own family tree has yield many more questions than answers.Were my ancestors Romanian, Turkish or perhaps Serbian?No one who researched the family tree was able to come to solid conclusions".U better acquaint yourself with you finding out finally who u r,than scribble silly articles.Someone without his own past is incomplete perason.Rudi:"Being of Croatian and of Jewish ancestry,this history of conflict in the region touches me deeply"...Don't u lie about you feelings?Or,don't u lie about your Jewish/Croatian origins?U r not frank guy,Rudi!Rudi:"Frankly,the history of Jews in Croatia in the 20th century was not a happy chapter.The brutality of the Croats in Jasenovac concentration camp is well known"..."You definitely know more about the region and language than I do".Rudi The Lier,r u Serb?Don't be shame to say us all.'Causse,lying&unknowledge is the Serbs main speciality&state of mind.(continues in next comment)
33 months ago: Rudi:"Their sadism and brutality even repulsed the Germans".Conc.camp Jasenovac,unfort.,scored victims 1941/45 under Pavelic's ustashas as working camp,but from 1945/51 under Tito's communists as death camp.After WW2,through Yugoslav communist's prisons there passed 3,77 mil.anticommunists.568,000 persons were liquidated.In Jasenovac,exactly the Jews were 1th class prisoners,working leaders,agents&executors.While WW2 Croatia was the most safe country for the Jews,the Serbia's Belgrade was Wermacht proclaimed "European most cleanned citty from the Jews".R:"Hvala lepo.(Thank you)".Serbian language.In Croatian:Hvala lijepo.The difference among 2 lang.u can c in:Fabrika azotnog djubriva(Serbian);Tvornica dusicnoga gnojiva(Croatian);Azote fertilizer factory(English).Where is the so called similarity between cro.and ser.languages?R:"I never knew about the Persian Croatian connection".U really have to explore your personal(Croatian)roots,the Indian/Persian roots of Croatian name,and the authohtonous genetic roots of Croatians in Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina,24000-27000 old.R:"I would like to know more about Dalmatian,a romance language that reportedly died out in the 19th century.What about the proximity of Italy?Did that influence the Croatian gene pool"?In Croatia differs "dalmatinski jezik/narjecje"&"dalmatski jezik",or New Dalmatian&Old Dalmatian language.The Old Dalmatian/Dalmatski extincted 1898.Genetic pool doesn't matter with that,because Croatians are Slavs only linguistically,genetically only up to 35%.Alike nowadays Frenchmen who are the descendants of the German tribe Francs,now speaking-Romance language!R:"One of the things I like about a monarchy is that loyalty to the reigning monarch bridges and transcends ethnic divisions".Hahahaha Under the imperial rule of your beloved Austrian/German tzar and king,Croatia was triparted Kingdom of Croatia,Slavonia&Dalmatia with K.of Dalmatia under Austrians&K.of Croatia&Slavonia under Hungarians.God bless u.
Rudi Stettner
Rudi Stettner
 Moderator
33 months ago: The most interesting thing you mentioned and also the most under reported was the crimes of the Tito regime. From what I have heard, both rival communists and citizens with nationalist aspirations were imprisoned and sometimes executed by the Tito government. Since Tito was a useful despot, America tolerated him. It is a bitter irony that Nazi death camps in Croatia were taken over by the Tito regime.
Your take on the Croatian gene pool is very interesting as well as your information about Dalmatia.
I have no need to conceal my ethnic origins.If I were Serb, I would say so. My family has been in America too long to be stung by such "accusations".
On a lighter note, I visited the web site of the Serbian royal family. It was very strange to see the Serb anthem in English translation, Serbian and "Serbian Latin", which I took to mean Croatian.
I see that you are a member of rantrave.com. Although some might hotly contest your historical narrative, I would love to see an article about political dissent in postwar Yugoslavia, linguistic differences and similarities and other issues. Thank you for your comments.
33 months ago: Thank you for your civilised manner of tolerant discusion, for your willing to know more about Croatia (and ex-Yugoslavia, including Serbia so called "Prison of Balcan nations") through my (I hope) unpretencious quotes, and finally thanks for your encouranging suggestion about my eventual thematic writtings here in the future. All the best.
33 months ago: Sigh.

Rudi, the Croat's were always a homogeneous people and every part of their culture was influenced by other countries/empires. You need continue your research for many more years on every facet of the Croatian history per region, city, time period, etc ..... than you may be able to start understanding things. You cannot get a complete and accurate history lesson from an internet blog.

Judaism is a religion and the zionist machine has propagandized claims that jewish haplogroups exist in order to justify the "Law of Return" and the illegal state of israel. Now before you start assuming, I have no issues with jewish people nor their religious preference - I do however have a problem with the illegal zionist regime that is illegally occupying Palestine. To further my point a bit more, I have a good friend in Queens, NY whom is Slovakian (from Slovakia) whom has a solid Slavic background. His parents converted to judaism and they are now considered as converted jews - however since he was born to a "jewish" mother he is now considered an ethnic jew per the religions definitions. Remember that the traditional jewish definition of a jew is "someone born to a jewish mother or who has converted to Judaism. My point is that it is a religion, always has been and always will be. There is little evidence showing any genetic link between today's "jews" and the original people whom have settled the land of Palestine. In fact, the Palestinian people actually have genetic evidence linking them to the region.

33 months ago: WWII was a sad chapter in this world's history - and unfortunately many countries around the world oppressed many groups of people from the Japanese in America to the jews in Croatia. No one claims nor argues the fact that Croatia did not have concentration camps - nor that Pavelic was not associated with Hitler in any way, carried out their agenda, etc. The Croat front was just as sadistic as the German front - that is a fact - and no, the Croatian camps were not the worst of the war .... that is another fact. As mentioned above, keep in mind the atrocities and repression that Tito laid upon the Croat's the day the war ended until his death. Upon the defeat of Independent Croatia - the defeated Croat soldiers turned themselves to the British Army. The British Army paid back Tito for being loyal during the war and turned 150,000 disarmed soldiers and civilians over to the partisan forces. Now we can refer you to any article on the Bleiburg massacres, the infamous mass Croatian graves in Slovenia, etc. What about the estimated 200,000 Croats that were killed during Tito's regime .... where's their voice?
Rudi Stettner
Rudi Stettner
 Moderator
33 months ago: The so called Palestinians are by no means homogeneous. Many are descended from people in other parts of the Turkish empire who were of various nationalities.
I do not find the idea of conversion any more challenging than the idea of naturalising an American citizen. It has happened that even Arabs have converted to Judaism and become a part of the Jewish people. Blood lines are only part of the whole picture. DNA is not the entirety of Jewish identity, although ties to the land of Israel ARE a common denominator, as much as ties to Croatian land are a part of Croatian identity
33 months ago: The Croat's are a group of people that originated from point A and ended up at location Z. We can all be linked by not only our bloodlines but we all have and share common haplotypes in our DNA. The same cannot be said of the vast majority of jews throughout the world as anyone at anytime could have and convert their religion. Yes - a small percentage of them do have the required common bloodlines and genetic DNA that associates them to the ancient land of "israel" however its not relevant in todays society. That's like the Croat's demanding their ancient land back from Iran claiming historical ownership.

Anyways - lets not veer too off topic. In order to determine what you are, who you are, and where you are from ... you need to verify your DNA. It will tell you what you are made of and where you originated. This throws all tainted views from a nationalistic and religious standpoint out the window and allows you to see in black/white the bigger picture.
33 months ago: One reason is that the wars of independence are still fresh in the minds of Croats, Slovenes, & Bosnians worldwide whom many such as myself were personally affected by the tragedy. For the most part everyone has moved on and have forgiven - however you should never forget!

I do find it rather ignorant of mjusa42 to assume that all Croat's are always trying for different ways to be different, sorry to inform you .... but the shoe fits both feet! Serbs, Croats, Bosnians, Slovenes, etc have all and will continue to identify themselves differently in order to enforce their culture/identity. For you to state that one has been doing it and the other has not is complete and utter ignorance. Also for you to lump both sides in the same exact category (calling the Serbs and Croats the same) shows you have zero knowledge of the Balkans (specifically those two cultures). Sure they have many similarities however they all have clearly defined cultural/linguistic/social/etc differences.

P.S. the word Yugoslav is no longer in existence ..... the term ceased to exist in 2003! I think you need to update your vocabulary in order to not appear foolish in conversation.
33 months ago: mjusa42:"Why is it that every time an article is written about Serbs and Croats people have to comment and mention the Balkan wars of the 90s and then WWII".
Better c who mentioned it first:Rudi in the main article!

mjusa42:"You people need to get a life and realize to live free is to forgive".
So,tell Jews 2 forgive hollocaust,also tell Americans 2 forgive 11.9.

mjusa42:"In general Croats and Serbs are a Slavic people and thus brothers in one way or another.Genetically they are very similar".
Neither Croats,nor Serbs r Slavic peoples,so they'r brothers in same way like Slovenes and Albanians r.Genetical investigations shows that Croats r only 29% Slavs&Serbs r just 16% Slavs.It's more interesting to recognise WHAT Croats&Serbs divides.Croats r mostly bearers of Dinaric/Vedoaryans genotype Eu7,called also "Croatian genotype",with 45% of it among Croats in Croatia&even 75% of it among Croats in Bosnia-Herzegovina.So,u better can say that "brothers" to Croats r nowaday Bosniaks who have 70-75% Eu7(croatian genotype.Serbs are mostly bearers of Altay/Anatolian genotype HG2,with 49% of it as prevalent one in their gens.Serbs genetically r non-Slavs 84%,Croats r non-Slavs 71%.Name YugoSLAVIA was political absurdity&serbian gretaerserbian propaganda.

mjusa42:"Croats always try to think of ways they are different from Serbs".
No,Croats don't do that.They know what differs them from Serbs&they always thank God for that.
Rudi Stettner
Rudi Stettner
 Moderator
33 months ago: Good to see you back Jarilo. I am now back to the proper sese that one should have in looking at the nationalities of the former Yugoslavia, which is one of complete befuddlement and a humbling sense of vast ignorance. Remember Jugoton records? Crvena Jabuka, Yu Grupa and Josipa Lisac? Their appeal cut across political boundaries. Even if most of us now realise Tito was a gangster, let's not forget that some of the best rock music came from the former Jugoslavia. And how could I forget Bjelo Dugme?
I have a question for you, Josip1 and any other Croats who might care to answer. How do Croatian historians regard Draza Mihailovic? I have heard that he was wrongfully executed for being a Nazi collaborator. I am guessing that his loyalty to the Serbian royal family was not well regarded in Croatia. But I'd like to hear some first hand knowledge from people who grew up there
Zivila

Rudi
33 months ago: Dragoljub "Draža" Mihailović was one of the founders of the chetnik movement. His military career almost ended after he pulled a stunt of separating the military line by nationality (ie: Croat, Slovene, Serbian) prior to WWII. During the later part of WWII after a series of events - he and his turned against Tito's partisan's. Another contributing factor to his conviction was his ethnic cleansing policy which was enacted on December 20, 1941.

He was not a German collaborator but rather had a different view on how to win the war. It was only thought that he (and his chetniks) were collaborating due to the fact that they did not follow the Western allies wishes by allowing them to manage their civil strife. He did not want to take orders from Tito's partisans nor the Western allies.
33 months ago: Bog Rudi, bog Josip1. Draža Mihailović is regarded by Croatian historians as war criminal,who dreamed a little dream of Serbian Kingdom revival, i.e. Serbian oligarchy over all other nationalities in Yugoslavia, as in the period 1919-1941, coveting British and American support to chetnics through WW2 and common fight with them against Yugoslav and Russian communists.
Mihailović was an universal collaborator, kind of the Vlach's prominence. HE WAS a Tito's partisans collaborator(1941), HE WAS a German&Italian collaborator(1941-1944),and HE WAS a Allied Forces collaborator(1942-1944). What a wonderfull collaborator,ha? Finally HE WAS sentencesed with death penalty by Yugoslav military court as the quisling style public enemy and people's renegate who killed thousands of Croat,Muslim and Serbian civilians.
Btw, where mjusa42's comments disappeared?!
Rudi Stettner
Rudi Stettner
 Moderator
33 months ago: I did not flag them. I have not seen anything in this comment stream that offends me. I may disagree but that is another thing. I would invite him to repost and to cc it to the site manager with a question of what was offensive.
When my mother and I used to argue, it used to resemble this comment string. Things would get heated and then we would inch towards mutual understanding. Her entire family was impassioned about politics, both Yugoslav and American
32 months ago: Have to comment back to JOSIP1, who was uneducated enough to paste a link to this silly website which apparently proves us Croats are from IRAN, that's ceetainly one of the most biggest example of modern misconceptions, in fact most Croats know for a fact this has been fabricated by some Serb, who hoped to cause a storm of interest, and open doors to more debates!!
Unfortunately JOSIP1, the genetical haplo group research has proven the complete opposite which you can easily find out if you just simply google 'Croat origins not from Iran', because the haplo groups of the whole current Croat gene pool of todays generation have been tested and proven to be of north western european gene pool, in other words the old celtic and germanic tribes which settled along the regions of today's Croatia are the main reason for the biggest differences with the rest of the Jugo-Slavs(who are more Slav-like), and the other 12% was due to interbreeding with the Slavs after 6-7 century AD. So next time before you state incorrect facts do some research first, and don't base your facts on some dodgy bogus privately created website pages published by some strange individuals (who are very likely to be of distant Serb origin - surprise surprise!!)

Proud Croat
machka
machka
Australia
17 months ago: Croatians have all the three major European haplogroups and their DNA is most similar to the Norwegians and Swedes. To explain this similarity, one theory is that during the glacial period the Scandanavians migrated down south and settled in the region of Croatia and Bosnia. Croatians are European people but that does not exclude the possibility of our origins being in Iran, did not all Europeans come from Africa? DNA testing does not strongly support the Croatian genetic link with Iran, as there is very little genetic similarity between Croatians and Iranians. However, it is not surprising since interbreeding would naturally occur throughout the migration process. I am a proud Croat who resides in Australia and I am not hung up about proving my genetic links other than to satisfy my curiosity. I would feel just as proud no matter where my genes originated. Suffice it to say that all humans on earth are connected via the mitochondrial DNA to the original primitive human female found in Africa who has been referred to as Eve. I believe that how one identifies is more important. I have met Croatians who are ethnically from Germany, Slovakia, Spain, Italy, Hungary etc. and they all identify as Croatian and are very proud Croats. Nikola Tesla was ethnically a Serb and yet we claim him as our own. If people want to differentiate themselves along ethnic or cultural lines, fine, but there is a danger of exluding people who do not fit stereotypes. I've met aboriginal Australians who are white in appearance and have more European blood than Aboriginal, but they choose to identify as Aboriginal. They acknowledge their European ancestry, but they identify with the Aboriginal ancestry more. So who are we to tell them that based on their DNA, that they are more European and have very little in common with Aboriginals. I don't believe that the Croatian-Iranian link was fabricated by some Serb; the Serb propaganda is that Croatians are Serbians and this justifies their occupation and expansion - making a greater Serbia. There is historical evidence that before settling in present day Croatia, Croatians lived in "Velika Hrvatska" (Big Croatia) in and around Southern part of Poland and surrounding territory and Krakow was the capital. This does not surprise me. Although my fathers family has been in Croatia for centuries, my surname has Polish origins, but you would also find this surname throughout Europe and middle East, including Iran. Like I said, all this is interesting, but lets not get hung up on proving we are different from other European people, because DNA testing has shown that we are not.
17 months ago: Hello Machka, thanks for replying direct to my original post. Hope you did read the rest of them since all of them pretty much cover what you describe. Not sure if you missed my point, but basically the whole reason why I commented here is because some character actually really believed Croat Origin is from Iran, and we all know it's definitely not.
Another thing to mention is this place is called Rant And Rave, which is exactly what people come here to do, and therefore discussions take place such as this one.
I think you didn't understand the actual point of the posts since nobody is hung up about anything, but the fact that some character got some facts wrong, and facts are facts eh? So therefore I proudly pointed out to them that we are not iranian origin at all but simply European origin.
Also one of the last points you are making says something like 'let's not get hung up on proving we are different from other Europeans'.....well in fact I claim that we are very much European, and nothing other than European.

Hope you understand where I'm coming from, I was born in Croatia, lived in Croatia all my life, fought for the freedom of our Croatia from the invading Serbian enemies in the 90s, and all my family history from both parent sides are pure Croatian, and to be honest that's the only reason why I am very proud of our pure Croatian European origins.

My grandfather and my father have created our family tree which stretches back to the 17th century, and you know when you actually realise how much heritage there is just in your immediate family you become very passionate about things like this, and therefore I protect the Croat identity if I ever come across any idiotic theories, such as the Iran origin, and just can't help getting involved!

It's always good to be open minded too, so for instance don't really understand why you would say that this whole theory was not fabricated by some Serb?

I still think so, you see these peeps really hate us, and have done for a long time, and they are really capable of making up all sorts of crazy stuff, including this.

And yes we all know the Serbs have always wanted to take all our lands etc, but you see at the same time they also like to try and use crazy propaganda such as crazy theories like this one, since they lost the war, we kicked their butts out of our land with our own hands.

So anyhow us Croats are certainly European, and indeed very much the same as other Europeans, and of course we know that we all came from Africa, and the same Chimp tribe were our original ancestors somewhere down there, but we also know we are definitely not Iranian, this is a proven genetic fact, and also the whole reason why I joined the 'rant' in the first place.

Greetings from a Proud Croat from London
machka
machka
Australia
17 months ago: Some Croats want to prove their Aryan origin and therefore their Iranian origins and others want to prove we are European because before DNA testing it was somehow always assumed that the Slavic race and those from the Balkans and Southern Europe are somehow less European. Well DNA testing has proven that we are European, but it is harder to prove our Iranian connection because majority of todays Iranians are actually not Aryan. The Aryans are minority goups and you will find them in Iran, Afganistan, Kurdistan, Pakistan, India and surrounding countries. If we were to compare not just Croatian DNA, but those of other European people with these minority Aryan groups we would probably find that the DNA is a closer match. You cannot discount other historical evidence to support this claim. This evidence was not fabricated by Serbs, it was actually suppressed during Tito's rule. I will reiterate that Serb propaganda is that Croats are Catholic Serbs and they claim that only a small percentage of Croats - Kajkavci in and around Zagreb are true Croatians. This is how they justify occupying us. Go on Youtube and type in THE TRUE ARYANS; ARYANS KURDS; THE CROATIAN ARYAN CONNECTION, etc. and get back to me with your thoughts. You will see how European these people are and it should not surprise you that Europeans were settled by the Aryan race. I don't really care whether we can prove it or not, but it is interesting and plausible. Hitler was very interested in proving the Aryan link to the German people for all the wrong reasons. It doesn't matter to me if my ancestors are Aryan or not, but I can see that it's possible. You can disagree, but it's good to keep an open mind.
17 months ago: Hello Macha, the only problem with this asian/aryan origin thing is that the majority haplo group amongst today's Croatian population is European only, and to be honest with you YouTube is definitely not a place to look for facts, or any type of knowledge.

YouTube is a place where anyone posts whatever they want, and how ever they want, so if you think about it, it's a perfect scenario for any type of propaganda.

The cool thing is it will get people going, to the point of believing, I find it quite amusing actually.

The best way to research things is to check the validity of the source, and unfortunately on YouTube anyone is allowed to upload any old rubbish.

So for example some 10 year old kid could be posting a 'cheap Power Point presentation' about Croat origins on the lost continent of the Atlantis, and you know what.... a lot of people might say 'Wow it could be true, you never know best to have an open mind eh'?

But you see I disagree, it's good to have an open mind about a lot of things, but when it comes to solid facts backed up with evidence, there's nothing more to it!!

So for that reason I have spent years studiying my countries history, and the nations origins, and I am very happy with the current official historical facts, which are based on physical evidence etc, and that is that us Croats are European origin, mixed with Germanic/Ostrogoth, Illyrian/Celt and Slav influence, hence why the South Balkans have always been 'different'.

So that's the only thing I will ever agree with, especially because I have seen my own tests, and seen the breakdown of the gene pool split for the current population, and even the 'cranial shapes' tests as well, which I find extremely fascinating.

Don't get me wrong I love keeping an open mind, but only about things that we really can not prove at this moment in time, such as if there is life on Mars, or if the lost continent of Atlantis really existed...

Greetings from a proud Croat from London
32 months ago: Hmm ... I guess your right - even though your "intelligent" response fails to mention any source backing your claims except for a suggestion of checking google (lame) and an absurd insinuation that this is a greater Serb conspiracy theory.

I guess last year when Croatian president Stipe Mesić visited Iran - both he and Iranian president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad whom hailed the two countries' relations and that their shared cultures and histories, owing to the possible Iranian origin of the Croats, would strengthen those relations were both mislead and uneducated.

http://www.spokesman.gov.ir/en/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=818&Itemid=58
32 months ago:
The actual name Croats is from the Iranian or Aryan word, and most probably from the Proto-Aryan word saraswati, later Harahwaiti. That word exists from 3750 BC from Persia. There are undeniable linguistic connections between modern Croatians and ancient Persia. There are many accounts documented in many scripts that mention Croats in Persia as early as 2nd/3rd century BC. There are dozens of written accounts as well that documents our common origin. One prime example is a written account of the early Croatian name Horoathos, exists on two stones tablets written in 200 AD and each were found in the port city of Tanais (Krim). Both tablets are held in the Archeological museum in St Petersburg, Russia.

Early mention of Croatian name and selected items - Tanais tablets. Figures (A) and (B) - note where the images are hosted.

http://www.croatianhistory.net/gif/horoath1.jpg
http://www.croatianhistory.net/gif/horoath.jpg

Škegro, Ante, "Najstariji 'popis' Hrvata: Javni natpisi s dviju mramornih ploča iz Tanaisa na Azovskom moru", u: Bosna Franciscana 16 (2002) X, str. 134-144.

http://www.iranchamber.com/history/articles/identity_croatians_ancient_iran.php

http://www.iran-heritage.org/interestgroups/people-article1.htm

http://www.croatia-versand.de/HRVATSKA_POVIJEST_-_PUT_HRVATA/hrvatska_povijest_-_put_hrvata.html
32 months ago: JOSIP1, read and learn young man, you're obviously not a Croat and have never studied the genetical background details, such as HAPLOGROUPS found in today's population of Croatia! Well I have my results! Croats are officially 90% EUROPEAN HAPLOGROUP - in other we did not come from another continent. Basically my results have been provided for me in London UK, and they state I have no Slavic gene pool background, or any other especially not from Asia, but instead of North Euro Germanic HAPLOGROUP.
Soh Josip1, just read the next paragraph and hope you appreciete your newly discovered knowledge!!!! :)
Croat from London
machka
machka
Australia
17 months ago: Why such a strong objection to Croatians wanting to trace their origins beyond their migration to present day Croatia and even beyond their presence in Poland. All nations are involved in searching for historical evidence of human origins and migration. This is why we have historians, archeologists, linguists etc. We need to examine all the evidence, not just DNA. It was said that Troy didn't exist until they discovered it in Turkey. We presently do not possess enough evidence to prove our origins, but there is enough evidence to speculate and continue researching.
17 months ago: No objection at all for Croats tracing their origins beyond ancient homo sapiens migrations etc etc, and that's exacty why scientists, historians, archeologists, paleontologists, linguistics, and all other experts use DNA research methods, and strongly rely on them since they are 100% accurate, especially when taken from 'living human specimens'.

You just can't compare physical evidence with 'home made Power Point presentations' on YouTube, please don't take them too seriously, they could have been made by some joky teeneager for all we know eh? :)

Especially when we talking about scientific stuff such as this, YouTube is definitely not going to be your safest fountain of knowledge. :)
Forget Troy, that's nothing comparing to Atlantis....would you be prepared to believe our origins were from there instead?

No hard feelings at all & you can absolutely believe anything, even YouTube, it's a free world we live in :)

Pozdrav iz Londona
machka
machka
Australia
17 months ago: Europeans didn't just magically appear in Europe, they came from somewhere. Read about the Aryan Invasion of India, there are records of this. Do some research into human migration and you will see that the Aryans settled in Europe. I suggested you have a look on Youtube at the Aryan race which still exists predominantly in rural areas of countries I mentiond, in order to show you how similar they are to Europeans. I know a girl from Afganistan and she looks very European. Blond and red hair, blue and green eyes are very common among these people. Their DNA needs to be compared with European DNA and I think you will find there is a stronger link, rather than just comparing the greneral Iranian DNA with Europeans.
17 months ago: Hello Machka, thanks for pointing out the obvious we all know the original migrations of humans have all taken place somewhere from 'mother Africa', and that's where we had the first 'homo erectus' and so on.
Have you ever heard about the recent studies which have proven for certain that Neanderthals have interbred with HomoSapiens which could explain a lot regarding the special differences of the European races of today in comparisons with all others in the world? Why don't you do some research into that and you will find they had a lot of red hair and light skin pigment which is a lot more closer than some girl you know from Afghanistan :)
Content Removed by Croat from London
machka
machka
Australia
17 months ago: Why don't you look at European genetics and then compare it to India and Middle East. For instance R1a is very common in India and parts of Middle East. Genetics when applied to the whole population can be quite misleading. For instance the Sammi of Scandanavia are genetically quite different to the other Scandanavians. Explain this difference. The Sammi are the natives of that land, perhaps they are more European than us. Geneticists say that Europe was settled by Africans and Asians, even though we are quite different gentically to majority of Africans, they suggest that Europe was settled by a particular tribe from Africa. As for Asia, well Turkey and Kurdistan etc. are part of Asia and when I travelled there last year I saw a lot of very fair and blue eyed people. The further South into Asia I went nearer to Kurdistan, the fairer they got. I can only assume that they are probably Kurdish because many of them live in that part of Turkey and are still fighting for that territory to be returned to them.
machka
machka
Australia
17 months ago: Look at Y-DNA AND Mt-DNA Human Migration and you will see the origins of European DNA. Neanderthals must have interbred with humans in Middle East as well. How do you explain their fairness. The frequency of red hair amongst Kurds, Afganis etc. is a lot greater than among Europeans. It is a recessive gene that is dying out. The mummies that were found in China are also red and blond haired. Not a single Asian ancestor was found among them. I think you would be happier with the explanation that Martians created Europeans, because the way you talk, it's as if we just magically appeared there.
17 months ago: Well I have looked at all that, and most importantly Haplogroup I (Y-DNA), which provides a lot of useful info into one thing only.....this haplogroup is almost non-existent out of Europe, suggesting it originated in Europe only.
So really genetics can be a very broad subject you see, and please do check the Neanderthal findings which I suggested in my previous post, this will give you a lot of insight regarding hair colours, and pigments etc, since they had to adapt to the colder climates of Europe at the time, and were deficient in Vit D, and also the other interesting facts about 'facial shapes' or 'cranial' studies, which basically completely isolate the skeletons from Europeans in comparisons with any Asians ones, could prove this connection strongly.
I'm sure you've seen lots of interesting things on your travels, and when I was in Africa I also came across a blonde african person, who was an albino child, blonde hair, blue eyes, just a genetic mutation that's all.

And what about the fact that European peoples of the ancient times may have travelled further east and influenced the lighter skin of the people of South West Asia? That could also be another theory eh?

But like I said before, things are even coming out now in 2010, check out the Neanderthal findings, they have mixed with newly arriving homo sapiens Cro Magnons, and that could explain why all Neanderthals completely vanished into thin air, since in today's populations of non-African humans there are DEFINITE TRACES OF NEANDERTHAL GENES, but only in non-African humans. Apparenly a very small percentage of 1-4% but that's still something, and explains a lot about the uniqueness of Europeans, and why we are so different.

Amazing stuff eh?

Greetings from London
machka
machka
Australia
17 months ago: Look up Iranian Peoples on Wikepedia and you will see that it says that they are and Indo-European peoples and are a major branch of the Indo-European Branch Family. Speakers of the Iranian languages were once found throughout Eurasia, from the Balkans to Central Asia. I will look at Neanderthal studies and maybe there is something to it, but it doesn't alter the fact that the other haplogroups that make up the Croatian and European genetic profile came from elsewhere.
machka
machka
Australia
17 months ago: It's interesting how you are happy to quote physical evidence and research when it supports your arguement but at the same time invent your own theories when it doesn't.
machka
machka
Australia
17 months ago: I read about the inter-breeding theory with Neanderthals - Genes from Neanderthals e.g. MP locus 17q21.3 which split into dee genetic lineages H1 & H2. However results from the sequencing of the full Neanderthal Genome have shown no evidence of interbreeding between Neanderthals and Modern Humans. I might add that another study by Paabo, Richard E. Green suggests interbreeding with Neanderthals in the Middle East.

I'd also like to remind you that geneticists are in agreement that the R1 - Euroasiatic genetic marker arrived from Middle East. Modern humans took 2 colonising routes - one from Middle East via Balkans and another from Central Asia to north of the Black Sea.

Stop inventing your own theories to defend Croatian origins. No one is disputing the fact that we Croatians are European and prior origins wouldn't and shouldn't make us feel any less proud of who we are and our beautiful country.
17 months ago: Hello Machka, do you know what? I'm really pleased to hear you've now read about this theory, and glad you know that extra little bit more about certain possibilities.
Now the only thing to say is that the whole reason why I joined here was because the original post from someone who stated Croats come from Iran blah blah blah, and basically because it's such a funny/crazy theory could not help myself to get involved yeah?
Then you come along claiming we are all asians etc etc, and Iran is the 'mother Country' of all Croatians.

And now you are telling me I am inventing some kind of personal theories?? Hahaha you have a great sense of humour!

What such as the fact that all of us Croats consider ourselves 'proper Europeans'?

Well you know what dear Machka, sorry if this really hurts, but we actually are real and proper Europeans, and always have been, confused people like you represent a MINORITY, when it comes to these types of silly theories that 'Croats are Iranian'.

You guys just make people laugh, with these far fetched unfounded rubbish theories, and in fact in your case you are actually admitting to be learning these facts as you are going along, such as this Neanderthal finding which was published in all Scientific Journals all around the world of Science in May 2010, and I pointed it out in the first place, but you come back and say 'well actually I don't think there is any proof in that' hahaha, dear Machka perhaps you should stick to Aussie History only eh?

At least your country has only existed for a couple of hundred years eh so no room for any confusion for you? Haha

Anyhow you said something about not even being Croatian, so no surprise then if you are so against the fact that us Croats are 'proper Europeans', and keep going on and on about 'Croats coming from Iran', you would get laughed at anywhere in Croatia if you came all the way from OZ and start telling us rubbish like that, people would think you're some anti-Croat basically.

And anyway, you need to get over it, we are European not Iranian, quite simple and really not a new discovery!

Perhaps to make it easier for yourself to realise this simple fact you should come and check out Croatia one day, instead of going to Iran, Turkey and Afghanistan?

Croatia could not be more European, and we all know that, I think your issue may be that you have been so isolated all the way down under, and also have a big personal unexplained passionate love for the country of Iran for some reason?

I don't need to justify why I love Croatia so much, I'm born Croatian and will die Croatian. Amen.

All the best from a Proud Croat from London
32 months ago: Croats are the descendants of Ostrogoths/eastern Goths.This theory is based on a historic chronicle from Thomas the Archdeacon called 'Historia Salonitana' where he mentions Croats as Goths.Also,Slavs in area of today Croatia are equated to Goths in Chronicle of the Priest of Duklja.Also,the Y-DNA researches,showing that majority of Croats belong to the Haplogroup I,common among Germanic people,gives additional support to this theory.
According to the autochthonous model, mostly promoted by the Illyrian Movement in the 19th century and abandoned[25] by the mid-19th century, the homeland of Slavs is actually in the area of southern Croatia, and they spread northwards and westwards rather than the other way round. A revision of the theory, developed by Ivan Muzić [27] argues that Slav migration from the north did happen, but the actual number of Slavic settlers was small and that the Illyrian ethnic substratum was prevalent for formation of Croatian ethnicity.

So there you go, and next time perhaps you should carefuly study things before making silly statements on a public domain such as internet!

Proud Croat from London
32 months ago: And the simple logic behind the fact that we are nothing whatsoever to do with Iran...
The Iranian theory suggests that the name Croats(Hrvati) derives from Proto-Aryan word saraswati, later Harahwaiti.That word exists from 3750 BC.In the ancient Assyria also existed the name Aravat,similar to the Croatian etnonim Hrvat,earlier also mentioned as 'Arvat'.Also,there are other toponyms which could be related to the name Hrvati,like Chorwat in India and Hrvati in Kurdistan.In one script from 1370 BC there is a supposed mention of Croats and their language 'Hurrwuhe'. At the time of Persian kings Darius I and Kir II existed an Eastern Iranian province called Harauvatya and a tribe named Harauvatis or Harahvaits,mentioned 12 times. Further there are two inscriptions from 2nd and 3rd century BC in the old Iranin that supposedly mention Croats in lands of Horooouathos' and Horoathos. 318 AD theire is a mention of Horites; 559 AD there is a mention of cavalry soldiers Hrwts from territory of Krim and Azov. Chain of names from 3750 BC that would connect Kavatic-Mesopotamic-Iranian ancient Croats with today Croats, would look like this: Huravat - Sarasvat - Aruvat - Harahvaiti - Harvat - Aurvat - Harauvatish- Harauvatija - Harauvatim - Harauvat - Harahvat - Horohvat - Arivates - Horvathos - Hrovatoi - Crvat - Harvat - Horvat - Croats (Hrvati) Howewer, this theory is based solely on linguistic evidence - hence why I say JOSIP1, read a bit more before making statements such as your silly theory!
32 months ago: JOSIP1 btw no hard feelings, but I just don't like misleading/false/fabricated statements, or we could even say 'borderlining anti-Croat propaganda' statements being posted on internet, especially because of being a proud Croat myself!

Pozdrav
32 months ago: The origin of Croatians before the great migration of the Slavs is unknown and everything to this point are theories - some having more merit than others.

The vast majority of Croats (87%) belong to one of the three major European Y-DNA haplogroups. Haplogroup I (38%), haplogroup R1a (35%) and haplogroup R1b (16%). All of these haplogroups are found not only in Europe but also in the greater Persian region.

~ Barac et al., "Y chromosomal heritage of Croatian population and its island isolates", European Journal of Human Genetics (2003) 11, 535-542

Your comment on us Croat's (I won't childishly accuse you of not being one) having 90% of European haplogroup's is very misleading and remedial .... as up to 87% (as stated above) share one of the 3 main/predominant haplogroups of Europe. Of these three - two of the three are found in the Persian geographical region in the same frequency as in Europe. The haplogroup I (Y-DNA)is the one exception in which 73% of all Bosnian Croats and 49% of mainland Croats all share this haplogroup (also 42% of Bosniaks and 39% of Iranians also share this same haplogroup). The common origin of this haplogroup is Persia - this is well documented.

The Croat people were and continue to be a very homogeneous people (genetically heterogeneous) - adapting to their new surroundings by assimilating within all aspects of the culture and people (breeding) they surround themselves with. As they migrated from starting point A (Persia) to their final destination Z (Croatia) - along the way they mixed with the newly arrived medieval migrant tribes (such as the Slavs) and with the indigenous populations that were already present in the region of the modern day Croatia.

Steve Olson, Mapping Human History (2003)
32 months ago:
Once again - you have your theory/opinion backed by whatever (I don't know) claims/documentation/sources (which have not been presented) and you discretely reference. I do hope you continue your research, and unlike you I do not dismiss anything and constantly look into alternative theories until one is proven .... which in this case has not happened (yet). I don't claim that the Croat/Iran link is 100% but given the information out there to this point, its the one that has the most factual (and physical) evidence to support its existence.
32 months ago: JOSIP1, what physical evidence do you have backing the deluded & laughable Iranian origin theory, please?
Since in reality there is no PHYSICAL evidence on this planet to back this theory, and by the way the 3 prodominant haplogroups are not anything to do with Persia at present!! They are all in Europe at PRESENT - which means today's Iranians do not share these haplo groups - hope you understand this simple fact.
I hope you are no reffering to migrations which took place 30000 years ago! Doh!
If you are prepared to reach that far back then we can also safely say that Croats have migrated from the African continent like all other Homosapiens!

Anyway I still have strong doubts you have no connections with Croats, otherwise why would you be trying to promote such strange unfounded theories!

Pozdrav iz Londona
32 months ago: Sigh ..... its sad that you fail to read any of the sources above. There are many stone tablets (written accounts) of our origins such as the Tanais tablets.

http://www.croatianhistory.net/gif/horoath1.jpg
http://www.croatianhistory.net/gif/horoath.jpg

In reality, there is only really one predominant haplogroup in Croatia - the other two have just as much frequency in modern day Iran as in Europe (please, please go read on the frequency rates of haplogroups as you obviously have not).

You can tag along any theory you would like to - however none can be dismissed as they are all still theories to this point (nothing has been proven to date). Maybe you should go have a chat with Stjepan Mesić and why even he ... the leader of Croatia ..... has acknowledged this theory, as the most likely theory, in the world limelight last year while visiting Iran.
31 months ago: Forget stone tablets, amazing how people can get confussed if some basic simple words might be distantly similar!! Don't you get it JOSIP1, there is no physical genetical proof, it was just a very distant similarity in some words - hence why we are not Iranian origin!!

The overall picture painted by the mitochondrial DNA demonstrates that Croatians have basically similar proportions of the various European haplogroups as other populations on the continent. Other DNA markers, such as those for certain short tandem repeats (STR) show that the Croatian population show no differences from other European populations (4) and adds further evidence of the European ancestry of Croatian populations, both on the coast and on the mainland.
The mitochondrial DNA data also shows the differences between Croatian and Iranian populations. Even though Iranians have the same nine haplogroups as Croatians and other Europeans, their frequencies are different, and even some haplogroups, such as U7, which show up in Iranians up to 9 percent, are rare in European populations. Therefore, we can use genetic data, mitochondrial DNA in this case, to refute the idea that Croatian populations have an Iranian connections, and to show, instead, that Croatians are much more genetically similar to other Europeans.

JOSIP1, were you by any chance born in Tehran? Because that could explain your opinion regarding being Iranian!! Doh!
31 months ago: JOSIP1 how about you visit Zagreb, Split, Zadar, Osijek, Varazdin, Dubrovnik, Sibenik or any other Croatian town these days, and tell our people they are from Iran?You'd be chased down the road by a huge crowd of offended passionate Croats!What connection you have with Lijepa Nasa,I don't think you are up to date with the current affairs and more specifically with how us Croats perceive our strong belonging to Europe only and protecting ourselves and our European brothers from 'constantly-invading eastern cultures'.We have always been perceived as one of the nations of 'European survivors',who've managed to finally get their identity and respect from others in the world due to us being what we are - a true European race of people capable of achieving the same successes as all other prosperous nations of Europe. There are numerous records of praise stretching back centuries in historical books of countries such as France, Spain, Italy, Germany where Croats are mentioned as the nation of protectors and mercenaries, who've always been capable of beating any invaders from the barbarian eastern cultures for the sake of keeping Western Europe the way it's always been since the Western Roman empire times.
In fact JOSIP1 if there wasn't for us Croats, many European borders would look different today, and we would have a much larger percentage of eastern culture presence in Europe today.That's why the deluded theory of Iranian origin purely stems from our immediate neighbours to the east who have attempted on numerous occasions to destroy our existence, and now in the modern times since they can not pursue any more barbaric violent tactics such as ethnic cleansing etc,they result in fabricating propaganda theories just to annoy us,and in fact more like bore many of us to death with sheer stupidness!!!It's a bit like saying that all Serbs are of Roma Gypsy origin and I bet you if you went around Belgrade saying that you would become a target for the crowds!
17 months ago: Well if that was true than all people of Europe are originally from Europe (never migrated from other lands) and the entire genetics project is a sham.

Most people think that comparing today's genetic makeup of modern day Croat's to today's genetic makeup of modern day Iranian's should match 100%. This is a false notion to conclude that there is a link between the two countries. Genetic testing has concluded that there is as much genetic similarities between those in modern day Iran as those in far Northern Europe.

Of course the two will not be aligned perfectly as when the Croat's migrated from Iran to the area now called Poland - the modern day Iranian's started their migration towards modern day Iran. One group of people moved out and another moved in. There is a lot of research on the subject, many papers written, books, etc ..... this is not a extreme far fetched concept that has been embraced by only a few (remember Mesić even supported the concept).

The only thing that most all researchers can conclude for certainty is that the bulk of today's modern day Croat's descended to the Balkan's from the greater Polish area. Where they came from before that is still being debated, some say from the North, others due East, and many others from direct West. I do hope we are able to determine for certainty in our lifetime the answer to this great question given the vast amount of money and time going into the field of genetics.
17 months ago: Nope, the Iran theory has definitely been discarded, check it anywhere you want, and you will find it was simply based on those 'old letters' on some stone tablets which sounded 'remotely similar', and that was it, simply one remote vague link. But unfortunately because that was the only 'physical link', that's why that theory was out fo the window.
With regards to 'Croats from Poland' theory, of course there is a lot more logic in that, we all know that, but we also know that the current 'gene pool' in present day Croatia represents a 'mixture' of Slavic background (obviously the Polish connection, and the other 'mixture' is Germanic/Celtic origin. Simple as that.
We could really get tangled up in all different possiblities, but one thing is for sure......we do know that the first humans have not originated in Europe, but we all came from Africa like 10s of thousands of years ago, from the original tribe of Chimps which evolved into CroMagnon Homo Sapiens blah blah blah, and that's how we had Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, Celts, Illyrians, Phenicians, Germanic goths, Slavs etc etc. So when we say European, we actually refer to the original arrivals who settled there first, i.e. the today's White Europeans. Croats were there too, hence why we occupy the regions of South Europe where Croatia is today.
The Polish Migration may have happened somewhere after the 6th century AD but all the peoples who were already there simply mixed with the new arrivals etc etc.
But nobody came to our lands from Iran, that's just too far fetched to even be a theory.

What about Neanderthals? We could go on forever in that case haha! Even all the anthropologists are now completely confused after the recent findings in 2010!

Recent genetic studies have proven that Neanderthals have definitely mixed with Homo Sapiens CroMagnon populations during their times together in Europe, so basically all the theories which we know today about Euro Genetic Migrations could be completedly unfounded.

Who knows anything for sure if they are discovering ground breaking new things such as these, for all we know we could be the original descendants from the first CroMagnons who assimilated all the Neanderthals from Krapina!
(and btw don't take this point too seriously I'm only kidding but the truth is nobody actually knows what happened to Neanderthals, since even all the most expensive studies which have been done so far can not correctly define why at one point in time all the Neanderthals vanished with no trace)

So anyway I'm always going to be a strong believer that us Croats are an old European nation, we always have been and always will be, we have no other historical traces or genetical traces on other continents (after the first migrations from Africa), which is why we are European and hence why we look European, and are where we are today. Amen.
machka
machka
Australia
17 months ago: You say "But nobody came to our land from Iran, that's just too far fetched to even be a theory". How did you come to that conclusion. There is proof of migration from India and Iran to Europe. They would have come down through Turkey quite easily. Read about human migration and you will see that it is true. Something else that is interesting is that on the Island of Hvar there is evidence of some Asian connection. Putting evidence of Croatan connection to Iran aside, there is definite evidence of a European link with Indo-Aryan race. Aryans migrated to India and beyond; that is why in India today there is a minority of Aryans who to this day worship Zoroaster, the Persian God, which is worshiped by minorities in Iran even today. Like I said there is evidence other than DNA to show human migration. I think there are more people opposed to the notion of Croatians having Aryan origins than those supporting this theory. Hitler did not consider Slavs to be a pure Aryan race and there are others in Europe who are of this opinion, including the Serbs. Here's the thing, no one is of a pure race. People have been migrating and inter-breeding for centuries and now with multi-culturalism in developed world, race differentiation will be even more difficult in the future. We Croatians are searching for our historical identity because it was denied us for such a long time. Occupied people all over the world stuggle with this because oppressed people are usually denied their identity, autonomy and freedom of expression. We have to define ourselves, discover our roots and write our own history. This searching for answers is part of the process and if the theories cannot be substantiated, they won't hold up. Josip has a valid argument, the European race, including Croats are Indo-Aryans and therefore it is plausible that the Hrvati tribe came from Iran.
17 months ago: Nope we certainly did not come from Iran, you see genetic evidence can not lie, it's one thing that's 100% certain, and unfortunately for you and Josip your theories are not backed up by any evidence whatsoever.
Someone found some stone tablet with some bizarre word which remotely resembled word Hoarvathi or something like that, hahaha if that's all there is I think that simply puts the dot on the end of that sentence :)

Don't you think there would be loads of offical publications made by the Croatian Historical Society, Universities, etc etc, and any other places regarding this amusing 'Iran origin' theory??

Please let me know which actual evidence is making you believe this funny theory?
Since there is none out there, that's why it only remains on YouTube, where it belongs, for propaganda makers.

YouTube is for kids, and they make fun presentations to amuse people, you should not take them too seriously!

Bottom line is the majority of the genes in today's Croatia are European only, end of that.

Like I said before in my previous post, if you are saying things like this, we could also say who's to say Croats have not come from the lost continent of Atlantis eh? That could be more feasible or plausible so why not keep an open mind eh? :)

There's as much evidence for that, as much as for the theory from Iran :)
machka
machka
Australia
17 months ago: I do have an open mind about Alantis but you keep referring to Croatians being European which no one is disputing. What you are disputing is that Europeans origins are Indo-Aryan and there is a wealth of research done to support this. The majority of people who reside in Iran today are not Aryan and you cannot use DNA data from general population to substantiate your claim no more than we can currently substantiate ours. But what is not disputable is the Indo-Aryan origins of Europeans. Do some more research.
17 months ago: Hello Machka, well I have to say that I don't have to do any more research, facts are facts, and DNA and genetic evidence does not lie.

However YouTube is certainly a place where a lot of people can get all sorts of 'colourful ideas' including this amusing theory about the Iranian origin.

Like I said in my previous post....how about the Neanderthals? I think you need to do some research on that actually rather than me doing anything further, since they had a lot of red hair and light pigment, and have interbred with newly arriving homo sapiens Cro Magnon populations, hence why logically we have the very special 'European race' of today, which is very different to any other in the world.

Check out some historical facts on Neanderthals, specifically about the ones which lived in the regions of today's Croatia (Krapina, Vindija cave etc) and you will be fascinated.

At least I hope :)

All the best from a Proud Croat from London
machka
machka
Australia
17 months ago: You could also look up Indo-European languages to see the origin of European languages. Like I said it's not just DNA research that paints a picutre of human migration. As people migrate and interbreed, their DNA is altered, but they can still orally pass on their language, traditions and history of their origins. How we identify is more important to some than their DNA.
machka
machka
Australia
17 months ago: Look up on Wikipedia: Haplogroup I (Y-DNA) and you will see that it appears in Middle East and Asia. In Iran, in the city of Tehran it's as high as 34%. These people are not a homogenous group and it appears that a large portion of them share European genetics as do the Turkic people of Asia. They are genetically distinct because they are the Aryan Iranians. They also have the R1a DNA. Like I said you need to do more research beyond Europe.
17 months ago: Hello Machka, yes I have read all about the Iranian People, and also about lots of other people of the world. I recomend you to look up in the same place (Wikipedia) but this time search for Croat People, and it's a realy cool section, and believe it or not it's completely separate from the Iranian section :)

Indo European terminology can be easily interpreted as linguistic related, and ever since the term has been introduced there has been lots of debates, simply because languages can be passed from different ethnic groups to other fairly easily.
For instance what's to say that the whole connection of the IndoEuropean languages didn't occur simply because the Europeans of those times met up with the Asians somewhere 'half-way' like Anatolia or Levant, and simply assimilated the language, and not the genes at all? I really support that theory.
And also what's to say that us Europeans didn't give the South west Asians our genes at some point and that's why there are existing similarities, so perhaps they got it from us in the first place? I really support that theory too it sounds more likely this way around :)

And even all the scientists still debate all the supposed definitions of all the Neolithic migrations anyway, and if they are not 100% certain even now in the 21st century, that says it all.

This is why I keep going back to that cool newly presented Neanderthal finding that they did actually breed with the Homo Sapiens humans, and they didn't vanish after all, but instead simply got assimilated since they've found that we all have 1-4% of their genus in todays Euro-humans.
It's also really special that we have one of the most famous Neanderthal sites in Europe, in Krapina, North Croatia.

I am just a proud Croat, who is very proud of our European roots and the brave existence of our nation during the history, and I am passing my passion over to my children now for them to continue it, just like it's been done for centuries.

You see our beautiful Croatia would not be what it is today, if there was no people like us to protect it, and cherish it, and love it forever until we die.

Every single man in Croatia didn't just stand up against the enemy invasion in the 90s because we didn't have anything better to do, it's because certain feelings are simply awoken inside you which you really can not describe, these are primal instincts of belonging to something really special, a special nation, a special spirit, and people like us should do whatever it takes to protect it forever.

Greetings from London
17 months ago: Dear Machka, you need to go back and read that section again :)

It only states Asia Minor which is basically Anatolia, or the Med Turkey!

Nothing to do with Iran my dear!

And by the way if you check the existance of any Haplogroup I anywhere else further then that, it's simply because of the Vikings who certainly have been that far!

Now you are starting to really amuse me!

Don't you get it? If there are any mixtures of this Haplogroup in any of those regions it's simply because they got it from us Europeans and that's the only way!!

You most definitely need to do further research since your facts are getting really bad now.

No hard feelings :)

I'm just a proud Croat :)

Greetings from London
machka
machka
Australia
17 months ago: I know about the Neanderthals in today's Croatia and I don't know about you, but I doubt my ancestors inter-bred with them. See my previous post. Like I said you are very selective of the evidence you present.

If genetic evidence doesn't lie then you should have no problem with the argument by geneticists that the R1 - Euroasiatic genetic marker arrived in Europe from the Middle East. See previous post.

I'd also like to point out that the Y Haplogroup l is as high as 58% amongst the Draginians from Dagestan and 34% in Iranian capital Tehran. But when you look at the overall Iranian population it's miniscule in comparison. It's as high as 33.3 % among the Abkhazians and 32% among Ossetians. It's as high as 42.1% amongst Albanians, 42.3% of Sardinians, 34% if Macedonians, up to 48.1% Romanians depending on region tested, 30.7% Slovenians, 29.2% of Serbs, 40.7 Bosnian Serbs and of course it's up to 40 % of Scandanavians. So based on the stats this haplogroup is present in Middle East, Caucusus and of course throughout Europe and Balkans. How do you explain it's concentration in Sardinia and yet very little I DNA in rest of Italy? Looking at stats Serbs could argue that we are genetically related, especially the Bosnian Serbs.

Facts are facts and the theories that you spout about European migration to the Middle East in order to explain how European major Haplogroups are present there are not supported in any of the genetic literature I have read. If you can show some evidence to support your argument, please do, I'd be very interested to read it. You have twistedddddd evidence presented in genetic literature to support your argument, but the reality is you have no proof to support your argument.
machka
machka
Australia
17 months ago: Once again you are making up your own theories and you want me to accept their credibility over existing research. You condradict youself when you say that the "whole connection of the Indo-European language didn't occur simply because the Europeans of those times met up with the Asians somewhere "half way"like Anatolia of the Levant and simply assimilated the language and not the genes at all". And in the next breath you argue that "Europeans gave the South West Asians our genes at some point and that's why there are existing similarities". You say you support that theory, you mean you support your own theory. I haven't read anything resembling your argument.

You amuse me when you are happy to discard scientific research on Human Migration because it is not 100% certain and yet you are willing to accept some vague research into Neanderthal and Modern Human link, even though there is other research discrediting it.

I do agree with you about loving and protecting Croatia, but the only protection it needs is from invasion, our European genes and heritage are well established and no on can dispute that and you have no real argument with me. You don't need to be so defensive about Indo-Aryan roots, we agreed that migration came from Africa, so why is it so hard to belive that it came via the Middle East, Central Asia, Caucusus etc. It may not be proven 100% but it's plausible and more so than your theories.
17 months ago: Hello Machka, what you actually wanted to say was 'I've just learnt about the Neanderthals for the first time'?

Begining to wonder what is making you come back here so badly to prove we are Iranian?

You see my only reason for protecting the Croatian cause is because I'm Croatian, it's quite simple really. What is your reason for going on about this theory about Asia and Iran?

Are you Iranian?

Anyway why don't you go and check out Croatia instead of going to Turkey, Afghanistan and Iran?

You might just realise we are proper European and very very different from those Asian countries which you seem to associate yourself with all the time :)

Greetings from a Proud Croat from London
machka
machka
Australia
17 months ago: I've read about the Croat people and I went back to read it again. It says that Croats are genetically linked to the Illyrians who were the original inhabitants of the area currently inhabited by Croatians. Albanians have up to 42.1% of Y haplogroup I. You see it's not DNA that differentiates us as much as our ethnic identity and cultural / linguistic differences. Some European nations also have strong genetic links and yet very different cultures and etnic identities.

I did go back to the Haplogroup I (Y-DNA) article from which I previously quoted and yes it does say that Haplogroup I Y-chromosome is also found among populations of Middle East, the Caucasus and Central Asia, but under 10%. This is true when you look at the whole population, but when you look at DNA of different tribes in those areas, you find greater percentages. Further down it says that in Iranian population, specifically Tehran it's frequency is 34% and in Isfahan it's 10%. But if you look at the overall Iranian population, the I haplogroup is almost non-existent. This region has been settled by Arabs, the original Aryans are a small minority and many of them are in the Caucasus, Central Asia, some still speaking their native languages.

For instance the Tajik - Persian people of Iranian origin - traditional homelands are in todays Afganistan, Tajikstan, South Uzbekistan and smaller numbers in Iran, Pakistan, Kazakhstan, Kyrgystan, Turkmeinstan and Russia. Their physical characteristics are lighter hair and eyes and they are predominantly found in mountain regions - the Alpine Caucasian Race. Their remoteness has helped them preserve their ethnic identity and culture.

I'm actually done trying to enlighten you about the Aryan race. I don't think this race is superior to other races, as was suggested by Hitler and other Nazis. This term is mainly used by Iranians because it's how they identify themselves. It's not politically correct to use it due to the Nazi association and racial discrimination and persecution. I'm not even suggesting this argument to prove Croatian - Aryan connection, although I think it's a possibility based on genetic and migration evidence. I wouldn't care if there was proof that Croatians are linked with Aboriginals, Africans, or Martians for that matter. I'm just quoting scientific evidence which you obviously find confronting and it makes you feel ethnically insecure and defensive. I am a proud Croat, no matter what our genetics and yes I totally agree with you that we are European and more importantly human.

You need to lighten up and allow yourself to examine all theories without feeling that your ethnic identity is threatened. We have the genetic evidence to prove that we are some of the oldest European people and nothing can threaten that. The scientific research I am quoting applies to all of Europe to some degree, it's not specifically directed at Croatia. Nemoj biti tvrdoglav!
17 months ago: Hello Machka, wow you finally read about the Croat people, great stuff, so now you know a bit more, well I hope you don't go around claiming we came from Iran anymore :)

Rasumjes Hrvatski? Wow, so maybe you do have some connections with Croatia rather than Iran :)

Nisam ja tvrdoglav draga Macka, ja sam samo normalni Hrvat koji ce uvijek stititi nas identitet upravo kako su nasi djedovi to radili preko svih ovih stoljeca!

Ja i svi normalni Hrvati znamo da smo mi Europljani, a ne neki Iranci, jedini ljudi koji to stalno spominju su neki cudaci koji su protiv Hrvatske, npr. nasi dragi susjedi na istoku Srbi.

Pa ako si ti protiv Hrvatske, ili ako si neka Australijanka koja je upravo nedavno saznala da ima neke povezanosti sa Lijepom Nasom, onda bi ti bilo pametno da dodjes u Hrvatsku da nas posjetis, i da vidis sa svojim ocime sve moguce cinjenice i posjetis muzeje itd, i onda ces vidjeti da smo mi jednostavno samo Europljani.

Ali ako ti nastavljas da mislis da smo iz Irana, onda jedina jedna stvar mi dodje na pamet i to je da si ti najverovatnije neka Irankinja ili tko zna tko?

Imas neku 'specijalnu povezanost' sa Srednjim Istokom i Azijom, i stalno se vracas na jednu jedinu stvar da smo svi iz Irana i Azije bla bla, pa znas sta, vec sam ti rekao da nema sanse i ti si svarno pre-izolirana ako mislis da nismo Europljani.

Ja sam pravi ponosni Hrvat, i odgovaram bilo kojim Anti-Hrvatskim ljudima na internetu, pa da je to na tvojem favourite YouTube ili ovdje meni he svejedno :)

Pozdrav od Hrvata iz Londona
machka
machka
Australia
17 months ago: You seem to have a propensity for reading into things and turning what is said on it's head. I've said time and again that I don't have any need or desire to prove anything, but particularly Croatian origins. I'm merely talking about Europe in general and I've quoted research on your trusted Wikipedia.

You have no solid argument left after the evidence I have presented, this is why you have decided to become personal in your attack. Only a fool would suggest that today's Croatians are anything like Iranians or Asians. We are simply talking about ancient civilzations and human migration. For the life of me I do not know why you have a problem with that. If people of different races didn't mix, then we would have very pure races, not the genetic mix we see in the Mitochondrial and Y chromosome.

As for going to Europe, I have been to Europe numerous times and I've spent 5-6 months travelling around Europe and Croatia. I was in Croatia only last year and I have relatives there as well as a sister in London whom I see regularly. I have travelled around the world and I have developed an appreciation for all cultures, but I am in love with my own Croatian identity and I am very proud and fond of Australia also because I grew up here and I've had a good life here. It's afforded me lots of opportunities.
machka
machka
Australia
17 months ago: Da sam ja protiv Hrvatske, ja bi otvoreno rekla. Nesvacas sto ja govorim pa nemam interesa da nastavi s tobom diskutirat. Nije lijepo od tebe napast druge da su protiv Hrvatske. Moj djed je bio Pavelicov oficir i platio sa svojim zivotom a baku su mi stavili na 4 godine robiju. Moj otac i njegova sestra su bili bez mame i tate. A da nepricam o ostaloj rodbini koji su poginuli i nestali u ratu zbog toga sto su bili u Ustasima ili Domobranima. Nisam ni jedan puta rekla da sam nesto drugo nego Hrvatica. Hrvatsku volim i posjecujem cesto. Moj otac je insistiro da se govori Hrvatski doma, pa svi govorimo Hrvatski, cak i moja naj mlada sestra koja je rodena u Australiji. Mladi su isli u Hrvatsku skolu. Otac je napustio Hrvatsku radi komunizma, nije mogao napredovati zbog svoje obiteljske povjesti i sto nije prihvatio komunizam. U Austrliji je pomogao sagradit Hrvatski dom i crkvu, i isao na sjednice tajne organizacije za osobodenje Hrvatske. Hrvatska diaspora je mnogo pomogla Hrvatsku u zadnjem ratu. Pazi sto govoris i nevrjedaj, to nije lijepo od tebe.
17 months ago: Helloooo again Machka, you're completely missing all the possible points you can miss here!

Basically I'm Croatian, and noticed some dude wrote on here we are from Iran, and he even added that our president and Iranian president sat together discussing how similar our nations are, hence why I got involved in the first place.
So you say 'only a fool would suggest this', well perhaps this chap Josip who posted it in the first place is a fool, I don't know, but I suppose I agree with you.

Also I've been involved in this discussion way before you got involved so I'm not getting personal at all, I was just here for the cause of my national pride, however your reasons are beyond me.

So dear Machka, I have been aware of all these facts whilst you've been spending your time on YouTube supposedly learning about Croat origins from Iran! (you clearly referred to YouTube as a place where you find things out!)
And please I hope you don't perceive my points as 'personal', I just believe in facts and pointing out the obvious every now and again since I believe it helps debates, a lot.

Let's face it, you've only just been reading certain sections of Wiki (at least I do admit it to be much better than YouTube so thank god for that) and sounds like you've only just discovered certain things about our Croat origins history.
That's a great shame and also gives me less enthusiasm to get tangled up any further since clearly if you check your claims, they are simply vey repetative and all claim the same 'asian/iran origin theory'.

So we could go on forever, but I think one thing and will not change my opinion and you think this other thing, it's a dead end by the looks of it.
I've attempted to lay down the facts which I have learnt which have made me think the same way all our Croat grandfathers thought when they felt a stong feeling of belonging in Europe, and therefore have protected our country for centuries especially from the very places which you keep referring to....the Asian Muslim countries.
Croatia have been a part of the Western Roman Empire, protectors of the Christendom, been called out to help out with Crusades, and you see to any normal Christian Croat a true close bond of belonging to Europe has stretched for centuries now, and is still going strong.

I've commented on many propaganda theories all over the internet and can tell you right now that most of the peeps who are claiming the Iran origin thing are radical Serbs, and there are 100s of them all over YouTube and lots of other places, so just can't help doing the same here, since the bloody theory is just a load of rubbish.

So realistically the whole reason why I'm yet again getting involved is to simply deny any types of idiotic theories, such as this one about Iran Origin, that's the whole reason for visiting here in the first place, hope you understand now :)

So nothing personal at all, and no hard feelings :)

Greetings from London
machka
machka
Australia
17 months ago: If you want to dispute the genetic, linguistic, anthropological and archeological evidence of human migration into Europe, why don't you take your argument to the very scientists who have posted their research on wikipedia and other sites. After all they are influencing the masses and according to your views threatening your Croatian and European identity.

I personally feel secure in my Croatian identity, I do not need to defend it because its identity is well established and Croatia's European heritage is not disputed by anyone, the genetic research has ensured that. I'm really done with this. I know many Croatians and I've never met anyone as insecure as you.