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Change Part Two - Thermal Power Plants

Posted 45 months ago|201 comments|3,157 views
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Altruist
Eugene, OR
Most of the power generated in the world today comes from thermal plants. These are very easy to understand. There is a heat source (Coal, Oil, Natural Gas, Nuclear, Concentrated Solar) that heats up water in a boiler to produce steam. The steam runs a turbine which generates electricity, then the steam is cooled (condensed) to turn it back to water and returned to the boiler. This is called a Rankine cycle, just think of putting a pinwheel in front of a teapot.

Utility Power Planners have to balance many different considerations when planning for future power supplies. Conservation is by far the most cost effective investment to to keep from having to purchase new generating capacity, (creating “Negawatts”). According to the New York State Energy Research and Development Agency, an investment of $1 million in energy efficiency measures (with a ten-year life span) can translate to an energy cost savings of approximately $3 million, the creation of 58 job-years, and emissions avoidance of approximately 100 tons of sulfur dioxide, 70 tons of nitrogen oxides, and 45,000 tons of carbon dioxide.

But eventually utilities have to think about building new generating capacity. Most power plants in the Midwest and East, use coal as a fuel because it is the cheapest, but it is very dirty. Natural Gas costs about twice as much but has half the pollutants. Oil costs about twice what natural gas costs, and the pollution is about midway between coal and natural gas. Proponents of Nuclear power claim that nuclear fuel is cheaper * and has no CO2 emissions, however the uranium processing is very energy intensive and the power for processing it does create CO2. Another thing to consider with nuclear is that once it starts operating, it generates enormous quantities of radioactive nuclear waste and there is still no safe place to isolate it for at least a quarter of a million years. Now the spent fuel is stored in ponds by the plants where it is vulnerable to terrorist attack. After the government fuel subsidies are considered, Nuclear fuel costs are about equivalent to natural gas. Solar power is of course free and has no pollutants.

The Capital costs are the costs of building a plant. Based on the U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA), http://www.jcmiras.net/surge/p130.htm
Solar plants are the most expensive of the thermal plants costing $3149/kW, Advanced Nuclear costs $2081/kW, Coal fired plants with a scrubber costs $1290/kW, Advanced Gas/Oil combined cycle costs $594/Kw and Advanced open cycle gas turbines are the cheapest to build at $398/kW and they are also the quickest to construct.

Our power planners have to consider the money they have in their budget for new plants, siting of the plant, the size of the plant needed, the fuel types available, the pollution generated, and the costs of the fuel. Renewable energy is attractive because there is little or no pollution, the “fuel” is free, and there are tax credits available. The down side of solar and wind power is, the power generated is intermittent. It only works when the sun is shining or the wind is blowing.

Most utilities have a limited budget so building a very large expensive Nuclear Plant, would be like putting all of your eggs in one basket. Siting is also a problem for large plants. Nuclear plants occasionally release small amounts of radioactivity into the air and water. No one wants to be near a Nuclear plant or a coal plant, and there is feirce public opposition. For this reason most utilities opt for the smaller, simpler, cleaner, and inexpensive, natural gas plants.

The efficiencies of most steam plants is about 35% -40% The efficiency of a combined cycle gas turbine can be double that, because after the combustion gases run through the gas turbine, they are then run through a boiler generating steam, which goes through a steam generator. We get twice the power for the same amount of fuel without any additional pollution. The efficiency of the plant can be further increased by cogeneration. The steam after it comes through the steam turbine can be sold to buildings for heat, or to factories to help in the manufacturing processes.

These improvements make the use of natural gas one of the most cost effective options available. Now there are a couple of technological developments that make this option even more attractive.

A hybrid solar thermal, and natural gas plant, provides the free fuel of the solar plant with the high capacity factor of the gas turbine, meaning that it can generate power all of the time. During the days when the sun is shining, the gas turbine can be shut down and a mirror array would concentrate the sun to boil water to run the steam turbine. At night, or if it gets overcast, the gas turbine can generate power. See: http://climateprogress.org/2009/08/18/hybrid-csp-concentrated-solar-natural-gas-power-plants-provide-power/

The maximum power need is during the daylight hours so if this plant was used and the gas turbine only turned on when needed 70% of the power could come from the sun. The cost of the combined plant would be considerably lower than the cost of two separate plants (a solar plant with a natural gas plant for peak power), because they share the same steam turbine in the same site.

The other new development that will bring power costs down, are Sterling cycle power plants. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stirling_engine A sterling engine is a closed cycle external heat source engine. There are now efficient cost effective sterling solar power plants that are twice as efficient as other solar power systems. See the introductory video.

The really exciting thing about sterling power, is that it can be used for low temperature heat sources that can be found free in many places. It can for example, take the place of cooling towers (which are now used in almost all thermal plants). Instead of just pumping that excess heat into the atmosphere or into a river or stream, that energy can now be used to generate electricity. Using the Sterling engine to recover wasted heat from existing power plants, you can nearly double the power output, without using any additional fuel or creating any additional pollutants!
See:See: http://www.sterlingsolar.com/

Now imagine our super efficient, combined cycle, natural gas solar hybrid, power plant, I talked about above. If we use the Sterling engine to condense the output from the steam turbine we could generate even more energy. In this plant you would have four separate thermodynamic cycles, (five with cogeneration!) so you could produce up to four times the amount of power from the same amount of natural gas with no additional pollutants!

Because the Sterling Engine runs on temperature differentials it is also ideal for geothermal uses, and for Ocean Thermal Energy Conversion (OTEC), there is sufficient temperature differential between the cool water from the bottom of the ocean and the warmer water on the surface to run the engine. OTEC would pump the bottom water up for the cooling cycle and use the surface for the warm side, to power the Sterling Engine. Because the water at the bottom of the ocean is full of nutrients, and surface water in the center of the ocean is generally lacking nutrients, it might be paired with fish and/or algae farms to further bring costs down.


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Chris D
Chris D
Seattle, WA
45 months ago: Nice post. I'm a big fan of Sterling engines.
45 months ago: Dang! My brain is boiling! can I vent some of that steam?

Since your big on CO2 footprints to produce using coal, NG and petrol. While making the statement that the actual use of some might increase the carbon footprint with hidden emmissions.

Here is the question.

Solar? How much energy does it take to produce a solar panel? What are the carbon outputs?

Hy-breds. How much energy does it take to produce a Hy-Bred? What are the carbon outputs? What are the future environmental hazards from disposal of said Hy-bred?

Just wondering.
37 months ago: There are two issues with energy production that define whether they are genuine energy sources and have a low carbon footprint.
These are:


1. Energy ratio. This is the amount of energy used to produce, maintain and decomission and energy plant, against the total amount of energy produced by the plant.
So in reality the amount of energy used to produce a solar thermal plant, wind turbine or coal fired power station isn't an indicator of whether it is a good idea or not. What is valid is the energy ratio.

2. A similar issue applies to carbon footprints of an energy production system. With electricity it is common now to refer to carbon footprints as grammes of CO2 per kiloWatt hour (gCO2/kWh). Again this basically means that the amount of carbon input at the production stage isn't a major issue. What is more important is the ratio of that carbon to the energy produced by the system during its complete life cycle. This then gives an indication of its impact on climate change. With renewables, the largest chunk of their carbon footprint is created at production, during maintenance, decomissioning etc.
With coal, carbon footprints are derived of building the plant, using coal as a fuel, maintenance, decomissioning etc.
Altruist
Altruist
Eugene, OR
45 months ago: I will address solar in Part 3. In he meantime I have a question for the conservatives in the group. McCain advocates building 100 new Nuclear plants. Cost estimates of 100 plants is $700 billion. The government would have to guarantee all of those loans and the default rate is 50%. They would also have to be subsidized by the government.
Why is it that you guys are against big government but you are OK with giving $350 billion of my money to the nuclear power industry? And for this investment we wouldn't get any power for 10 years, by which time nuclear power will be made obsolete by new renewable technology, and we would have to foot the bill for getting rid of all of the waste. Talk about big government wasting money!
45 months ago: What are the subsidies for wind, thermal, solar and water energy developement?

Please, I can take it as long as it is level. Otherwise it looks like your pushing you industry.
45 months ago: I never got an answer on why a Hybrid costs more than a combustion that is three time the size of the Hybrid. Is it the cost to produce the Hybrid? Why is the cost of something 1/3rd the size more? Does it use more engery to produce? What do we do with the Hybrid waste in a few years? What is the cost of a Hybrid replacement battery? What is the disposal fee for a Hybrid battery? What do we have to do to get an answer?
Altruist
Altruist
Eugene, OR
45 months ago: We will have to wait and see what the Senate passes as an energy bill to see what subsidies will be. Existing subsidies will expire in 2010 I believe. Not sure how much for what use.
Hybrid vehicles are a totally different species than hybrid solar natural gas power plant. My understanding of the hybrid car is that the battery pack, the electric drive train and the sophisticated control system adds about 20% to the vehicle price. The Prius hybrid is geared toward fuel efficiency, while most American hybrids are geared toward power, so the fuel savings in the Prius are greater and thus the pay back period for the extra cost will be shorter. Don't know about batteries, but all should be recycled.
The reason a solar thermal plant is so expensive is that it has thousands of mirrors, each with their own tracking mechanism in addition to the boiler turbine etc. These high initial capital costs can be amortized over time because after start up the energy is essentially free.
45 months ago: See there...nobody knows...we might be creating a new eco negative system...
Rod Adams
Rod Adams
Annapolis, MD
45 months ago: There is no simple comparison between the price of natural gas and the price of coal; natural gas prices have varied from as low as $2.90 per million BTU to sharp peaks exceeding $20.00 per million BTU during the past three years. Coal prices have been relatively steady at between $1.50 and $3.00 per million BTU during the same period. (Ref - bloomberg.com commodity prices)

There are no government fuel subsidies for nuclear fuel; in contrast the government adds specific fees to the fuel like the 1 mill per kilowatt hour fee to pay the costs of long term storage.

According to average cost statistics compiled by the Nuclear Energy Institute, the all in cost of commercial nuclear fuel in 2008 was just 49 cents per million BTU. That is about 1/6th of the cost for even the cheapest natural gas over the past three years and it is 1/40th as much as the peak cost.

http://www.nei.org/resourcesandstats/nuclear_statistics/costs/

That cost includes the purchase price of all of the energy that is invested into the mining, refining and manufacturing process; it is quite illogical to claim that making uranium dioxide fuel is "very" energy intensive. Its CO2 emissions per kilowatt hour are almost identical to wind and about 1/3 to 1/2 of solar depending on the technologies chosen.

http://gabe.web.psi.ch/projects/externe_pol/index.html

Rod Adams
Publisher, Atomic Insights
Host and producer, The Atomic Show Podcast
45 months ago: After scouring the Sterling website, I must ask: where's the supply of condenser cooling water comming from?; what working fluid are they using? Most ORC generators are using HFCs that are potent GHGs but GE is using cyclopentane that has negligible GHG effect.
The concept of additional bottoming cycles on power plants is a good one but primary point of wasted heat is in the steam condensers that are not designed to use ORC working fluids to condense steam. The only other point of waste heat capture is in the cooling towers and that process is very inefficient and not cost effective to date. Get the major steam generator manufactures to develop a condenser using cyclopentane and you've got a winner.
45 months ago: Also remember the Sterling ORC cycle at these low temperatures are only 5.4% efficient requiring huge heat source and cooling water flows to produce very little power and the parasitic pumping energy for these flows are not included in their calculations. That's not to say that they shouldn't be added to the generation mix, it's just that the buyer must be aware of all costs.
45 months ago: BTW the associated video is of a Stirling solar dish not a Sterling ORC generator.
Mike Keller
Mike Keller
Overland Park, KS
45 months ago: Few observations:
On nuclear energy. "…enormous quantities of nuclear waste…" Relative to what? A single coal plant will produce more waste in a year than the entire fleet of nuclear plants for the last twenty years.

A combined-cycle plant can not be shut done while the solar arrays are in operation. Google "Integrated Solar Combined Cycle System (ISCCS)" to see how the plants actually operate; basically the solar energy heats steam. Solar provides maybe 12% of plant's output.

There are solar thermal plants that boil water, but they do not employ gas turbines.

Sterling plants are extremely expensive relative to more conventional solar approaches -- see National Energy Test Lab site (NETL) for details. Applications that use low-grade heat inevitably require large numbers of devices. That is why they end up costing a lot of money. Available energy is basically a difference in temperature.

If you folks are interested in an ultimate “hybrid” power plant, see www.hybridpwr.com
45 months ago: Mike Keller, you beat me to the "nuclear waste" quantity item. If it was such a "huge" amount, we would already be overrun with it, as it is, it is usually stored on site because there are too many opponents to the Yucca Mountain site. There are lots of different types of waste generated at each type of plant, actual neuclear stuff is small in quantity.

www.hybridpwr.com, that's a lot of compressors and turbines to run one generator, guess I better review other methods too.

I would like to see some small, solar steam systems that an individual could afford. I have plenty of sun and land, just no money to buy a million dollar unit.
45 months ago: Altruist, good post, keep the info coming!
45 months ago: Yucca Mt. won't be licensed because it's a volcano and DOE can't insure it's integrity for the ½ million years needed to isolate plutonium containing waste.
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
45 months ago: ...Solar power is of course free and has no pollutants...

Sure it is if you don't count the production of the materials used to produce Solar panels. It's neither free nor non-polluting.

Solar Energy Firms Leave Waste Behind in China

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/03/08/AR2008030802595.html?sub=AR
Altruist
Altruist
Eugene, OR
45 months ago: I am glad to see comments from people that have experience in the industry, since I have very little, however I am skeptical of nuclear industry claims. It is true that nuclear fuels do not receive direct subsidies, and fuel costs are supposed to account for all costs in the cycle including disposal and decommissioning, however those costs are thought to be much lower than the actual costs will be. The US has taken responsibility for delays in completion of Yucca Flats and pays the nuclear industry for those delays, the caps on insurance are too low, and the federal government has to back up all construction loans. All of these could be construed as federal subsidies. See: http://www.globalsubsidies.org/en/subsidy-watch/commentary/gambling-nuclear-power-how-public-money-fuels-industry
Good questions Tom and Mike. I can only say that the new stuff coming from the sterling industry claims to be bringing costs and complexity down so it will soon be competitive if not now. Keep reading and researching and lets see if they can. I would also like to see miniaturization so these things are practical for homeowners.
Mike Keller
Mike Keller
Overland Park, KS
45 months ago: I think you'll find the problem with nuclear power is essentially financial. The +$6 billion cost for a typical new nuclear plant is pretty much of a "you bet your company" proposition.

There is a push in the nuclear industry for smaller units that are more "digestible" from a financial standpoint. However, I'm not so sure how competitive the units will ultimately turn out to be as the economies of scale are ostensibly no longer in play.

I believe the idea is to mass produce the small nuclear units and that's how the cost is lowered. However, if your plant is small, the profit is normally small as well - might not be a great investment.

If we go back in history (say 1950’s), you’ll find power stations were not very large and tended to be built in multiple unit groups. However, technology and “economies of scale” produced much more efficient and larger stations.

As long as we have semi-reasonably priced natural gas, the low cost (to build) combustion turbine (combined-cycle power plant) will crush any and all other technologies.
Rod Adams
Rod Adams
Annapolis, MD
45 months ago: @Altruist - Skepticism should be accompanied by a search for facts and perhaps an investigation of motives. It should also be applied with some amount of equity to competing industry claims.

The "nuclear industry" is not the only industry motivated to make claims in order to make a profit. Coal, oil and natural gas suppliers also have a motive to continue selling their wares and make a profit; that activity is threatened by introducing an abundant, low cost competitor into the heat supply business. The energy industry is really a "heat" industry where nearly every fuel source is converted into heat. Sometimes it is the heat itself that is the desired product, other times the heat gets converted into motive force or further refined into electricity.

Competitors to nuclear energy have plenty of power and wealth and have done a great job spreading FUD (fear, uncertainty and doubt) about its value. Some fossil fuel interests have given nuclear energy a handicapping bear hug; investing in the technology and then starving their nuclear divisions of funds or pushing them into building only one size of plants to limit their market expansion.

For example - the first and most proven value of using nuclear fission is to replace oil on board ships. However, there are only a few commercial nuclear powered ships on the ocean due to a focus by the industry on trying to compete against coal on land. Kind of silly since oil powered base load plants - which describes all large ship engines - are extremely expensive to operate.

BTW - I never worked in the nuclear industry. I gained my knowledge of the technology as a submarine engineer officer and have spent the past 15 plus years refining that knowledge.

Rod Adams
Publisher, Atomic Insights
Founder, Adams Atomic Engines, Inc.
Rod Adams
Rod Adams
Annapolis, MD
45 months ago: @Mike Keller - You contradict yourself. Power plants that use combustion turbines are generally made up of several units, each one of which is far smaller than most steam turbines. The very largest combustion turbines are on the order of 200 MWe, but most are far smaller.

Because of their rather simple designs and the economy of unit volume in producing combustion turbines for uses like aircraft and ship propulsion - which are not identical to power units but have a number of common parts - the machine costs are quite a bit lower than they are for very large steam plants that have traditionally been a part of nuclear or coal stations. Other factors in that cost include simplification and removal of many high pressure piping components that are exposed to corrosive fluids like supercritical steam.

Combustion turbines burning natural gas, however, are not very economical sources of most of the power that gets consumed. Even at $3.00 per million BTU, the fuel cost for a very efficient CCGT more than 2 cents per kilowatt-hour, 10% higher than the TOTAL production cost for a nuke, and that is without any attempt by the gas turbine to capture and store its deadly waste products.

I am a big advocate of smaller atomic plants - especially those that use the same kind of machinery as found in combustion turbine plants. Combine the low heat cost of uranium with the low machinery cost of Brayton cycle gas turbines and you have a game changing technology. However, even moderate sized modular plants using steam have a high probability of lower costs per unit capacity by getting rid of some of the schedule and financing risk associated with very large plants and by achieving higher unit volumes and factory production.
Mike Keller
Mike Keller
Overland Park, KS
45 months ago: The nearly fatal flaw with nuclear power is the cost to build them -- paying off the debt makes new plants not competitive in today's power market. The fuel is, however, cheap, being roughly $1/mmBTU. Gas today is about $4/mmBTU, although it was up to around $12/mmBTU last summer. On a construction basis, nuclear is somewhere north of $5000/kW to build versus a combined cycle plant at around $900/kW. Since fuel costs are generally a pass thru, the least risky investment is a combined-cycle plant by a significant margin.

Early combustion turbines were small and not terribly efficient. The combustion turbine has, in fact, become bigger and more efficient over time (economies of scale). "G" and "H" class machines are now pushing 260 mW with efficiencies of nearly 40%. Not that long ago, 3x1 plants (3 combustion turbines, 1 steam turbine) would produce around 500 mW. Today, a 2x1 configuration will produce over 700 mW.

Combined-cycle power plant’s have efficiencies pushing 60%. Conventional nuclear, maybe 35%.

While there are folks who oppose nuclear power, I do not believe there are sinister elements attempting to handicap nuclear power. As to putting reactors on commercial vessels, besides the initial cost, there is the question of what happens when they sink or otherwise run into mischief. Too much of a risk; Lloyds of London would not insure the enterprise. Far easier to use a big diesel or gas turbine.
Rod Adams
Rod Adams
Annapolis, MD
45 months ago: @Mike - I tend to agree that the cost of building conventional nuclear plants is too high, but I fail to understand why you assume that the creative minds who could drive down the cost of combustion turbines cannot apply some of the same principles to driving down the cost of building nuclear power plants.

Your estimate of nuclear fuel price is off by a factor of two - the average price per kilowatt hour is approximately 0.49 cents which leads to a per million BTU price of about 49 cents since current nuclear plants have a heat rate of approximately 10,000 BTU per kilowatt-hour. (http://www.nei.org/resourcesandstats/nuclear_statistics/costs/)

There is still plenty of room for technical improvements to nuclear fuel costs - the 1970s vintage technology plants currently in operation take fuel out when it has produced just 45,000 MW-days per ton. The ultimate potential for uranium, thorium and plutonium based fuels is roughly 1,000,000 MW-days per ton. We are at about 4.5 percent of the potential.

Why don't you believe that commercial entities that compete with nuclear power will work to handicap it? Natural gas entities have paid for commercials bashing coal, steel companies pay money to bash plastic products in automobiles, Coke pays money to bash Pepsi, and Apple pays money to bash PCs. What is so sinister about recognizing that economic competition exists?

BTW - we know what will happen if a nuclear vessel sinks. Unfortunately, we have done that experiment several times. We have taken advantage of that unfortunate opportunity to measure the negligible effects on the environment. Obtaining insurance is not the issue - heck, it is possible to book a cruise to the North Pole on a nuclear powered ship.
45 months ago: The fatal flaw with nukes is in the ethics of its promoters who have the audacity to think they can impose a nuclear priesthood on the next 20,000 generations to care for their nuclear garbage.
Rod Adams
Rod Adams
Annapolis, MD
45 months ago: @tom lakosh - I am a nuclear energy promoter, but also someone who is extremely concerned about the generational ethics of our current energy choices. There is good reason to believe that the Earth will be denuded of accessible hydrocarbons within the lifetime of my first granddaughter, who will be born in a few months. That prospect frightens the heck out of me because I know just how important those accessible hydrocarbons are for a modern lifestyle on a planet with more than 6 billion inhabitants. Fission is the only way I know to drastically slow the consumption of hydrocarbons.

We have been caring for used nuclear fuel for more than 50 years. So far the accumulated volume is tiny - it could all be placed on a single football field and the pile would not reach the top of the goal posts. That material is solid, resilient and corrosion resistant. It is easy to store in simple containers and easy to handle with simple rules - do not eat the material, do not stand too close without shielding, and do not spread around the world. There is no need for a priesthood - the amount of training required to take care of the material is minimal.

Used nuclear fuel also represents a tremendous energy resource - it retains 95-97% of its initial potential energy. If the material is properly recycled, the half life drops to about 30 years, which makes the storage time about 300 years before the radioactivity levels drops to less than the original mined ore. There are plenty of examples of containers that have already lasted 300 years in the world today.
45 months ago: @rod I studied the geophysical and geochemical parameters of radioactive waste migration from subsurface disposal sites 35 years ago and all nuclides migrate at various rates and with various transport modes. The rule of thumb for acceptible nuclide concentrations is isolated storage for 20 half lives. Your most dangerous nuclides Sr 90 and Cs 137 have to be isolated for 600 yrs and when contaminated with Pu 239, 460,000 yrs.
Almost every civilized government just nearly colapsed because of subprime loans and the NRC was working on Yucca for 24 yrs before a judge had to tell the idiots that they couldn't predict the long term integrety of of waste in a volcano, sheesh. I just had a hearing with the NRC PRB on the lack of reparedness for reactors' ultimate core cooling reserves when all of the cooling water sources are contaminated by volcanic ash and they wouldn't even consider the matter unless they deemed an adjacent volcanic eruption imminent. They have no sense of propriety over time nor appreciation of the magnitude of geologic forces.
If you want a smooth transition from fossil fuels there are several indicated methods for supplying benign energy: all energy uses must be more efficient; all buildings must have BIPV/T roofs; ocean energy farms must concurrently harvest wind, wave, current and thermal energy; we must switch to efficient electromotive transportation; the use of fossil petroleum/gas must not be used for process heat and biopolymers must eventually replace petrochemicals.
Your quick nuclear fix, however enticing, is unethical for oh so many reasons and if you have any ethics you'll buckle down to find better solutions.

Rod Adams
Rod Adams
Annapolis, MD
45 months ago: @Tom - did you study the geophysical and geochemical parameters of used fuel storage containers or did you simply assume that they no longer exist?

The half lives of Sr 90 (28.9 years) and Cs-137 (30.23 years) mean that the materials will be decayed to essentially zero (below the radioactivity of the mined ore) within 300 years, ten half lives. It is only people with a mission to halt nuclear energy who claim a need for 20 half lives of isolation and who ignore the fact that humans can maintain simple containers above ground.

Your "efficient" energy sources have a common problem - they are completely dependent on the weather. Most of them will be completely useless for 70% of the time since their energy "source" disappears. Building huge structures that will be idle for 70% of their lives does not seem like an efficient use of time or money to me, especially since mining the materials for those collectors is an enormous activity.

Humans prefer to use energy sources that they can control and energy sources that can be implemented without tremendous amounts of wasted time, materials and effort.

You advocate "electromotive transportation". Where do you expect to obtain the electricity?

Now, can you please stop questioning my ethics?

As an aside, I taught ethics at the college level for two years.

45 months ago: Hey, go teach your ethics in the Ukraine and Belarus and feed your granddaughter the local vegetables because that’s the future you seek to impose on all species for ½ million years.
What humans prefer and what is sustainable are two diffent things. Right now we're acting like yeast in a jar of sugar water and will happily eat sugar and excrete alcohol until it poisons the whole colony.
The electricity comes from the 20% efficient type III-V thin film solar cells and ORC conversion of heat from the BIPV/T roofs as well as the integrated ocean energy farms that produce energy 24/7 from ocean currents and thermal gradients supplemented by wind and wave power. The world wide superconductor grid allow efficient daytime peaking from distal baseload sources supplemented by regional heat, compressed air, pumped water, capacitor, battery and flywheel storage.
Rod Adams
Rod Adams
Annapolis, MD
45 months ago: @Tom - have you ever read the book by Mary Mycio titled "Wormwood Forest"? I highly recommend it for people who believe what they have been sold by the media about the long term effects of low levels of radiation.

The last time I checked, the most efficient solar panels were approximately 20% efficient, but they are NOT the cheap, thin film panels. Those strive to achieve a conversion efficiency of 12%. In BOTH cases the efficiency is zero for 8-15 hours per day as the sun disappears from view. Whenever the sun is below an elevation of 30 degrees from the horizon, the energy production is no more than half of the advertised capacity.

There is no world wide super conductor grid. I am pretty certain that there are no more than a few hundred miles of superconductor transmission lines in the entire world.

I have spent a number of months on or under the ocean. The currents are pretty minimal in most parts of the world and the surface is often calm enough to go waterskiing. Compressed air is terribly inefficient for energy storage, more than half of the input energy is lost as heat in the process. Pumped water is a bit better, as long as you do not live in a place like my home state of Florida, where there is no "up" to pump the water to. Capacitors store charges for time measured in seconds, not minutes, batteries have energy densities that are 1/50th as high as gasoline and flywheels are very expensive per unit of stored energy.

Name me one place on earth that survives with just the source of energy that you list. How many humans would be able to survive in a world that has only those sources? Are you one of those people who advocates a drastic reduction in human population? Is that ethical? Who gets to choose the survivors?
45 months ago: The level of radiation from accidents, escaped waste and sabotage is uncertain and you absoulutely have no right under any set of ethical standards to place that burden on so many future generations.
On the other point's you're right, the described techs must be rigorously developed and require overbuilding to meet energy demand but all of them have sound technical bases to warrant a much higher degree of certainty than any proposed nuclear fuel cycle security plan devised to date. This is the price of sustainability for the planet so wake up and smell the coffee! Let's get to work finding viable AND ethical energy solutions. Free rubbers are likely part of that solution, but I'm not a Nazi.
Rod Adams
Rod Adams
Annapolis, MD
45 months ago: @Tom -

You wrote:

The level of radiation from accidents, escaped waste and sabotage is uncertain and you absoulutely have no right under any set of ethical standards to place that burden on so many future generations.

You are wrong. We know what the levels would be from all conceivable accidents and have even been forced to assume that inconceivable accidents are somehow possible. The computed damage is still FAR less than what we already accept from burning fossil fuels and also far less than the proven hazard of living in a world without reliable energy supplies.

I have spent many months within 200 feet of an operating nuclear plant. They are impressively safe and have demonstrated their safety over more than 50 years of operating experience. They are installed in vaults that are very difficult to penetrate.

I am a believer in Murphy's law, but with a corollary. Murphy says that if something bad can happen, it will. However, here is my corollary, if humans have been involved in an activity continuously for several decades and nothing really bad has happened, that probably means that it CANNOT happen.

I am not denying that accidents are possible, just that they will not have anywhere near the devastating effects that you imply. Also, if nuclear promoters have to include the potential costs of sabotage, why don't promoters of other energy sources have the same responsibility? Have you ever considered what might happen if a major natural gas pipeline is sabotaged in an urban area?

45 months ago: You're as thick as the PRB with regards to your concept of statistical hazards over time as your timeframe horizon is restricted to decades and your lifestyle impact is over hundreds of thousands of years. Where do you get off? Are you contributing to the medical expenses of Ukrainians for their radiation diseases as penance for your miscalculation of Murphy's Law? How is it that Chernobyl didn't make it into your calculations or do you think there were just a few short sighted engineers that built that plant and the rest are infallible?
Rod Adams
Rod Adams
Annapolis, MD
45 months ago: @Tom - I included Chernobyl in my calculations. The book I referenced above - Mary Mycio's "Wormwood Forest" is about Chernobyl and the surrounding area from the point of view of a Ukrainian-American journalist who moved to the area to tell the story. Here is a passage from the forward to the book:

"Initially, the disaster made me (and, I'm sure, many other people) oppose nuclear energy. In 1986 it was a painless position to hold because the price of American dependence on foreign oil had not yet become two Iraq wars, the second of which still has undetermined costs and consequences. Nor had I yet moved to Ukraine, whose complete dependence on Russian fossil fuels seriously compromised the young state's political independence. It was also before I could feel the real evidence of global warming on my own skin.

For the record, I have gone from adamant opponent of nuclear energy to ambivalent supporter - at least for giving a window of time for reducing our dependence on fossil fuels while pursuing research on alternative energy sources. But even those alternatives can have environmental costs."

The World Health Organization has done a detailed study of the effects of the accident. The total number of early deaths from the accident as of 2005 were less than 50 with the POSSIBILITY that a few thousand MIGHT die early in the years following the accident out of the tens of millions who were exposed to elevated levels of radiation.

http://www.who.int/mediacentre/news/releases/2005/pr38/en/index.html

Compared to other industrial accidents, that is not such an incomprehensible total, especially knowing how many safety features were purposely overridden by the operators to make the accident happen. A repeat can be avoided by simply not doing that again.

45 months ago: This is still a short timeframe of observations and a questionably limited one at that. Need I reiterate that the best NRC engineers chose to site a high level waste dump right over a friggin volcanic magma plume, and then attempted to justify the choice by modeling the radioactive ash distribution after eruption! I don't think these guys were that idiotic, and their rationalization clearly demonstrates that politics, bureaucratic inertia and get rich quick interests trumps sound engineering 9 times out of 10. When you add the hiring of low paid plant operators and security into the mix you begin to realize that the statistical risk is much higher than advertized and the majority of totally innocent victims won't be born in 200 years.
Where a technology has such high consequences, it has to be idiot proof and the infallible nuclear priesthood has yet to be established. Now, I’m not suggesting that there’s no acceptable cost to energy either. In fact, I might even be convinced to tolerate the large amount of neutron activated waste from fusion reactors if you can get them off the ground but fission fragments and transuranics are clearly beyond our societies’ ability to appropriately isolate in a reliable manner over the time frames necessary to preclude creation of vast inhabitable wastelands. We’ll need every square inch of land for occupation and cultivation so let’s not force the question of who lives in the hot zones.
45 months ago: That's uninhabitible and I still don't see you moving to Mazyr with your granddaughter.
Rod Adams
Rod Adams
Annapolis, MD
45 months ago: @Tom -

With regard to Yucca Mountain - I am very happy with the President's decision to remove funding from the project. I just wish that he had removed all funding, even from the licensing activities. I have been warning the nuclear industry for more than 13 years that Yucca was a stupid course of action for used nuclear fuel. Examples:

http://www.atomicinsights.com/mar96/letter_Mar96.html

http://www.atomicinsights.com/FTROU/02-02-02.html

http://atomicinsights.blogspot.com/2009/02/yucca-probably-dead-now-it-is-time-to.html

To address your point - you have it wrong. The NRC had nothing to do with the selection of the used fuel storage location. The project leader is the Department of Energy, the NRC is the reviewing and licensing agency. Even the DOE did not choose the site; it was selected by the very finest nuclear engineers in the Reagan Administration and the US Congress. (That is a sarcastic comment; there were no engineers involved in the selection of Nevada as the waste site; it was done because Nevada is a small state that was politically weak at the time of the selection while others in the running had more powerful congressmen and senators.)

One more comment - we cannot discuss the imaginary hazards of radioactive material in the distant future hundreds of thousands of years from now without thinking about the very real and immediate hazards of burning 6 billion tons of coal, 4 billion tons of oil and about that same quantity of natural gas every year. Burning fossil fuels puts about 3.6 tons of CO2 into the atmosphere for every ton of input fuel plus releases significant quantities of far more deadly waste products. People die every day from fossil fuel related accidents and routine waste dumping.

Tell me - how many people "get rich quick" from the steady well-paying jobs associated with nuclear power production compared to the multi-billion per quarter profits of several major players in the fossil fuel industry?
45 months ago: The NRC engineers were all buffaloed into rationalizing the selection. I agree the choices you present are grim and my option is expensive but at some point you have to practice the ethics you preached and at least attempt to exhaust the sustainable but expensive option. We'll certainly have to give up some toys like lunar rockets, Mars exploration and new weapons but the tech I propose is feasible given appropriate R&D investment. Your last post clearly substantiates that the safety of the complex nuclear tech you propose will be compromised by bureaucrats and they should not be given sharp objects to play with.
Rod Adams
Rod Adams
Annapolis, MD
45 months ago: I say again - you are confusing the Nuclear Regulatory Commission and its responsibilities with those of the Department of Energy. Those are two totally separate federal agencies.

Second - the Yucca Mountain decision was not made by technically trained bureaucrats, but by elected politicians. The thought was that choosing a lightly populated state with a large federally owned reservation that had been used for weapons testing already was a politically easy thing to do. I have not claimed that Yucca is unsafe, merely that it is stupidly expensive, difficult to access and a waste of valuable energy supply material.

I AM practicing the ethics that I learned and taught. I understand the health effects of low level radiation and recognize that they are far less than the health effects of either burning fossil fuel or trying to do without energy. I have studied the "options" that you suggest, looked at the potential avenues of technology improvement and determined that they are a waste of time, resources and energy. The ethics I know and understand are that it is the responsibility of people with knowledge that can avert catastrophe to share that knowledge as widely as possible.

Sailors have a saying indicating their skepticism and distrust of authoritative statements from people with little practical experience - "don't piss on my head and tell me it is raining". You keep trying to convince me and perhaps others who might be reading this growing thread that there is something uniquely hazardous about radiation and radioactive material. I have been too close to the material, studied too many medical records, read too many books, and talked to too many respected scientists and engineers to believe you.

http://www.radscihealth.org/RSH/

I guess I have to ask - what do you do for a living and where did you obtain your understanding of nuclear energy topics?
45 months ago: Rod and Tom, Great posts, both sides. I'm a nobody with nothing invested in either industry, except a gas well a couple hundred feet from the back door. Other than using fossil fuels and electricity from the grid, I have little input to the debate over which is the best course to follow. I am going to say that I believe that nuclear power is our best option for the next several decades while the other power sources are brought on line. Hate to bust your bubble Tom, but it will take many decades for what you propose to even get started. Why? Because those with the money don't care a flying monkeys butt about anything but keeping it in their pocket and making their pot of gold get bigger. Been that way for hundreds of years and no amount of bogus man-made global warming scare is going to change it. Yeah, I don’t believe MAN-MADE global warming.

Nuclear plants can be built a lot cheaper than they presently are. Simply remove all the obstacles to them and you will remove at least a third of the cost if not half. What obstacles? The protesters, the lawsuits, the massive amounts of studies covering site impact and other things that have NOTHING to do with safety or operability, most of these hindrances were put in place by the opponents to nuclear energy decades ago for the CHANCE that it would slow down the building of more plants. I’m not saying not use common sense, but to return to it. The opponents of this type energy have done their best to make nuclear energy a scapegoat of all that is bad for the environment and man, all while saying they were going to bring all this new technology to maturity and move us away from fossil fuels. I’m still waiting for a solar panel I can afford, been waiting thirty years and they are still out of reach. Like Rod said, thin film won’t cut it, not enough power out for the investment and they aren’t cheap.
45 months ago: As for other technologies wind, wave, thermal, where are they? The only non-huge corporation installation I know of is in Alaska providing cheap power for a hotel, one lousy hotel running off a power plant they designed and installed over the industries cries that it won’t work. Sure there are wind farms and wave farms and a few thermal plants but they don’t produce much and there are no real plans to install thousands of them across the globe to power the grids that are in place, and as for that superconducting grid Tom spoke of…… what a laugh, maybe in 200 more years. I am disappointed with your scale of thought Tom, do you have no clue how big the planet is? How far it is from one city to the next? If you think building a four lane freeway around a small city is expensive, try a superconducting power grid for the entire nation, much less the world.

My apologies for leaving mid thought, I must go to a going away party for my s-i-l, he leaves for Afghanistan shortly.
45 months ago: Dude, if you can't see that building a waste depository in a volcano on top of an active subduction zone is one of the top three stupidest things ever conceived of by a human being, you're beyond redemption.
Yes, we'd have to invest huge sums into R&D and mandate use of the best benign tech ASAP to make any real dent, but the fact that we screwed up so bad for so long still doesn't justify leaving our radioactive garbage for people hopefully living in the year 460,000 just so we can maintain a decadant lifestyle while 1/3 of the planet still hasn't made a phone call.
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
45 months ago: ...Coal, oil and natural gas suppliers also have a motive to continue selling their wares...

There's a difference though. If 'big oil' says something negative about nuclear, American political "Progressives" believe them because they have a knee jerk reaction about the word "nuclear" - they've weaned themselves on popular media culture and nuclear is a Dr Strangelove atomic demon that we used to bomb Japan; the fact that's it's efficient, low CO2 and green must be ignored.

Ironically enough, a "progressive" European country like France doesn't have this political handicap nor the associated high costs when it comes to nuclear power. As I noted in Change part 1, they're full tilt on nuclear power although Altruist wouldn't acknowledge that fact or critizie France. Why not? Is it because France is "politically good" in the eyes of American Progressives, especially since they were against Bush and the Iraq war? Probably goes both way though; how many red state "freedom fry" neo-cons will praise France for being nuclear powered and not caving into anti-nuclear paranoia?

On the other side of coin, if 'big oil' says something negative about solar, the Progressives don't believe them because 'big oil' is "bad" and and represents Bush and the GOP, and of course Solar is pure "clean & green" in the eyes of progressives. That's why our resident progressive mechanical engineer with a minor in physics said "Solar power is of course free and has no pollutants." I guess he believes that that solar panels are grown on organic farms by retro-hippies and there's no toxic byproducts produced like silicon tetrachloride. Also, see:

http://svtc.svtc.org/site/PageServer?pagename=greenbang_1_14_09
Rod Adams
Rod Adams
Annapolis, MD
45 months ago: @markbyrn

What do your hated progressives say when big oil and gas praises solar, touts their investments in wind and runs advertisements about their efforts to develop better battery technology?

BTW - I am a self described liberal and progressive who solidly supports public education, the rights of workers against domination by capital, the importance of good public infrastructure, and the goal of universal health insurance that is not tied to employment status. As can be seen by reading through the above thread, I also believe that the very best source of energy for modern society is atomic fission.
45 months ago: Great post and many great comments. Getting from here to the future in the most Environmental and Economically friendly/responsible way will take the most monumental cooperative effort of all the powers & people on this Earth. That said I invite everyone to view the solutions offered at www.swapsol.com.
JAK Gladney
JAK Gladney
Saint Albans, WV
45 months ago: "Ironically enough, a 'progressive' European country like France doesn't have this political handicap nor the associated high costs when it comes to nuclear power. As I noted in Change part 1, they're full tilt on nuclear power although Altruist wouldn't acknowledge that fact or critizie France. Why not? Is it because France is 'politically good' in the eyes of American Progressives, especially since they were against Bush and the Iraq war? Probably goes both way though; how many red state "freedom fry" neo-cons will praise France for being nuclear powered and not caving into anti-nuclear paranoia?

More caricatures of progressivism, skating over substantial cultural differences. France learned their lesson in the '70's--the same lesson that city blocks-long gas lines failed to impress upon the American consumer. Volatile, often anti-Western regional politics, oil as frequent political lever.

from a Frontline piece (bias disclosed):
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/reaction/readings/french.html

"Claude Mandil, the General Director for Energy and Raw Materials at the Ministry of Industry, cites at least three reasons. First, he says, the French are an independent people. The thought of being dependent for energy on a volatile region of the world such as the Middle East disturbed many French people. Citizens quickly accepted that nuclear might be a necessity. A popular French riposte to the question of why they have so much nuclear energy is 'no oil, no gas, no coal, no choice.'"

A world post-oil, gas, and coal? Unthinkable. Only radical tree-huggers think this way, never calculating political realists.

"Second, Mandil cites cultural factors. France has a tradition of large, centrally managed technological projects. And, he says, they are popular. 'French people like large projects. They like nuclear for the same reasons they like high speed trains and supersonic jets.'"

more...
JAK Gladney
JAK Gladney
Saint Albans, WV
45 months ago: Try promoting anything "centrally managed" as a plus in today's climate of rabidly anti-government sentiment. Better yet, try finding a comparable faith in scientists, engineers, and other "technocrats"--all held in the same "professional" disdain, a lasting mark of our culture wars. Our colleges and universities are too busy minting lawyers to venerate scientists.

"Thirdly, he says, the French authorities have worked hard to get people to think of the benefits of nuclear energy as well as the risks. Glossy television advertising campaigns reinforce the link between nuclear power and the electricity that makes modern life possible. Nuclear plants solicit people to take tours--an offer that six million French people have taken up. Today, nuclear energy is an everyday thing in France."

Ever been solicited to take a tour of a coal-fired power plant? Most people haven't. Word-of-mouth advertising is less important to an industry that spends it's money on more focused astroturf: forged letters, "clean coal" campaigns, etc.

Rod Adams
Rod Adams
Annapolis, MD
45 months ago: @JAK - The coal industry is smart not to invite the public to their facilities. There is an excellent description in Gwyneth Cravens's recent work titled "The Power To Save the World: The Truth About Nuclear Energy" of her visit to a coal plant. It reminded me of a descent through the levels of the Inferno. Here is a brief excerpt from the first level - the description in the book continues for several pages:

"We stepped into a cavernous space with ducts snaking around and blackened pieces of giant equipment: conveyor belts, hoppers, crushers, blowers, furnaces, water and steam pipes, turbines, and generators. Tall glaucous windows provided some light and a little ventilation. A hot wind blew in our faces and swirled the coal dust and feather gray ash that collected in the corners and crannies. Paint curled off the walls. Fans pumped the heat and acrid-smelling exhaust up the stacks and into the atmosphere. There was a strong blend of odors: Marcia detected steam on hot metal, acrid sulfur, and that peculiar ozone smell of electricity. My earplugs kept falling out, perhaps shaken loose by the loudest din I've ever encountered. They sometimes hit the floor. I'd pick them up, try to wipe them off with my fingers, already grimy from the omnipresent soot, and reinsert them. It was hopeless. Sometimes, when no one was shouting, I just put my fingers in my ears. For the next few days a ringing in my head persisted, and for two weeks all normal sound seemed wrapped up in cotton batting." p. 194.

I like to add just a little to the French saying of "no oil, no gas, no coal, no choice" phrase. When a country has that situation they also have "no established competition" that demands protection in either open or deceptive ways. America (and Germany, and the UK) did not have that luxury - we have a huge and firmly established fossil fuel industry that wants to protect its market share from upstarts like uranium, thorium and plutonium fission.
45 months ago: Above you will find a statement that says France has no coal, this is false. France stopped mining coal in 2004 because it cost to much compared to German coal (1/2 to 2/3 more per ton).
45 months ago: I wonder if the cost might have something to do with being lazy? The Germans do work 2 more days per year.

The following table lists nine countries and the average number of paid vacation days per year employees receive in each country.

Italy 42 days
France 37 days
Germany 35 days
Brazil 34 days
United Kingdom 28 days
Canada 26 days
Korea 25 days
Japan 25 days
U.S. 13 days

Source: World Tourism Organization

Plus holidays. Go figure.
45 months ago: Rod, I don't have that book or easy access to it, could you clarify a thing or two for me? Where was this coal fired power plant? What year? Have you been to one built in the last 40 years?

I have toured a coal fired electrical generating plant. Very clean on the generator floor and most other areas. Hot, of course it was, thousands, millions of BTU's of heat energy are at play here. Dusty, no, dim, not by a long shot actually very, very bright, night and day. Now if you go down to the coal handling and furnace areas, it gets dirtier but nothing like the description you quoted. Of course it's dirty, its coal dust and the whole idea is to crush it and burn it, making more dust and ash to add to the mess. It's not like they are trying to do this in your living room. If every industry that involved dust and ash were shut down because they were dirty, we'd be riding horses, oops, we'd be walking, well, maybe not..... Anyway it won't happen and dirt is not all bad. And as for the workers having to work in the heat, there are regulations already in effect that control that aspect.

Your description quote reminds me of when I worked in a foundry, as maintenance, I had to work down around the melt furnaces, not where the operator worked, down below where the mechanical parts of the machine live, now there is a place full of dust and dirt, ash and HEAT!!!!

45 months ago: Tom, Yes building on a possible volcano was stupid. Now please find me a spot on the planet Earth that is perfectly safe for the next one million years so I can build my house with no fear of it ever being destroyed by anything you or I can conceive of, not including anything from extraterrestrial locations such as asteroids, comets, meteoroids, falling space stations, solar flares or alien attack, can’t foresee everything. I mean, what the heck, aren’t we humans smart enough to see the future and be able to avoid any and all possible outcomes?

I really think that the volcano thing is grasping at any possibility to sling mud and say “Dumbasses!”

JAK, I believe that if we really wanted to work together on something, we could, might be some ruffled feathers but in the end we would get the program up and running, our biggest roadblocks will be figuring out who is going to get the lions share of the profits. Well, maybe not OUR roadblocks, we aren’t the ones with the money so we would all come together and be ready to make some progress, it would be the jerks with the cash who would slow everything down until they could be assured that their twenty cent investment would return twenty plus nineteen in less than a year. (Of course we penniless peons are not going to be offered a chance to invest at those rates.)


As for Yucca Mountain, I’m as worried about that volcano erupting the same as I am about the New Madrid Fault moving and making an inland sea next to my house. Its right up there with the Yellow Stone Super Volcano erupting in my lifetime, and it is thousands of years overdue.

360,000 years is a drop in the bucket as far as the Earth is concerned and as for the half-life’s mentioned above, I will agree that there are different ways of treating the material that will render it more stable and possibly re-use it and at the least, bring it’s half-life down to time periods that we can all live with.
45 months ago: TCG, I've always been jealous of those Euorpean vacation and pay scales, not only do they get more days paid, that pay is ON TOP of their regular wages, or so a fellow from Denmark told me. He said that the companies there realized that in order to really enjoy a vacation, the worker had to have enough money to pay normal bills AND be able to go on a vacation to somewhere else and enjoy yourself too!
Rod Adams
Rod Adams
Annapolis, MD
45 months ago: @sixholdens - The plant described in "Power to Save the World" is the Riverbend Steam Station, built in 1929, owned by Duke Energy Carolinas. It is an old plant, but it has recently been modernized as part of Duke's $1.7 billion investment to bring its plants in compliance with North Carolina's 2002 Clean Smokestacks law.

The plant has won the Edison Award eight years in a row, been given a certificate by the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) for Environmental Leadership, and a certificate of praise by the North Carolina Department of Labor for safety achievement.

I agree that the point of a coal burning plant is to take black, flammable rock and crush it for efficient mixing with oxygen and then to convert that crushed material into heat to create steam, leaving behind the non burnable components of the rock as ash. That all makes sense if you have no better choice to produce the power that people need to live comfortable lives when they are unable to afford servants and are morally opposed to owning slaves. (I once read a book that helped me to understand that the energy consumed by Americans in the 1950s - it was an old book - was equivalent to each one of us controlling the physical labor of 45 people.)

(Continued)
Rod Adams
Rod Adams
Annapolis, MD
45 months ago: However, we do have a better choice. If you visit an operating nuclear power plant, you will still smell some of that ozone described and some of that smell from steam piping, but you will not experience much heat, and you will be able to feel like you could almost eat off of the floor and hold a conversation without yelling in most parts of the plant. There are no crushers and no dust. One tiny uranium dioxide pellet about the size of the tip of my pinkie contains as much heat energy as 1,700 pounds of coal.

That is why nuclear facilities make reasonably good tourist attractions in France, where the concerns about security are not so paranoid as in the US. (After 9-11, an attack that used fossil fuel loaded onto planes running long distance routes as bomb material against tall glass and steel towers and a concrete office building never designed for impact, Americans became afraid that nuclear plants were vulnerable and restricted access even more. Go figure.)
45 months ago: Rod get up tp date! The coal plants you describe as being clean places can and are clean working environments, but the new coal plants of the near future will be even cleaner. Both to work at AND for the environment.

I offer these websites for you to view:

http://www.heraldnews.com/news/local_news/x772298972/ITS-A-GAS-A-sneak-peek-inside-new-Somerset-plant

http://www.swapsol.com/swaplog/
45 months ago: I can agree with you. You can eat off of the floors in many of todays nuclear plants! I also have worked at some older (built in the forties & fifties)coal fired plants that were clean enough to do the same.
Rod Adams
Rod Adams
Annapolis, MD
45 months ago: @jon0052 - I visited your recommended site. Here is an interesting quote from the article about the new Somerset plant:

"Avi Goldberg, chief operating officer for GreatPoint Energy, said the 50-employee facility uses interns and labs at the Advanced Technology and Manufacturing Center in Fall River. He says the company uses only about 20 tons of coal a week — basically one truckload."

The article goes on to describe the pilot scale facilities and talks about how the waste products - "mercury, nitrogen and sulfur are separated and sold for use in a variety of commercial products."

Please forgive my skepticism, but keeping a pilot scale facility that processes 20 tons of coal per week clean is a horse of a different color from doing the same with a 500-1000 MWe power station that processes between 4,000 and 12,000 tons of coal PER DAY. Finding a market for the contaminants is probably pretty easy, but try finding a market for 1400 to 4200 times as much material every single week.

I know - researchers will tell me that you have to start somewhere, but we have been doing coal gasification in the US for more than 100 years. The product used to be called "town gas" and many of the sites are still part of the EPA's Superfund clean program.
Mike Keller
Mike Keller
Overland Park, KS
45 months ago: "Town gas" wastes were tars and various other more or less vile byproducts produced by the relatively low-temperature process. The waste tended to get dumped in pits right at the plant. The sites end up on the superfund program, when, for instance, somebody intends to build on an old forgotten site, does testing to determine civil soil characteristics for foundations and then discovers to their utter dismay they are pretty much screwed.

The gasification processes of today operate at much higher temperatures than that of the "town gas" era. The principal waste is a glass like slag that can not leech into the environment; quite unlike the wastes associated with town gas (or ash sludge from conventional coal plants, for that matter). You also generally have some form of sulfur as a byproduct of modern coal gasification.

While coal plants, by their basic nature, have housekeeping problems, not that much dust escapes from the newer plants, primarily because of dust suppression measures (the stuff can create fires and explosions) and dedicated operating crews. The older plants are generally pretty dirty from the accumulation of coal dust over the years, even with the lads trying to keep the place more or less clean.

I’m not so sure being able to eat off the floors is a reasonable standard of cleanliness for most industrial facilities.
45 months ago: MK, you can bet your lunch that most industrial facilities are NOT as clean as most power plants, coal fired or otherwise. Some places are lucky to just keep ahead of the dirt and grime enough to walk around the machines! I've worked in a hydraulic valve plant, stainless steel sink plant, machine shop, foundry and an ice cream plant, wouldn't eat off any of their floors or even consider it!
Rod Adams
Rod Adams
Annapolis, MD
45 months ago: @Mike - I will grant that the inhabitants of industrial facilities should be eating in the cafeteria, not in the facility itself. I also grant that modern coal facilities are probably cleaner than older ones and that there is little risk from the "principle" waste of gasification, if by that you mean the solid part that takes up the most volume.

However, the real high volume waste from any hydrocarbon combustion process is CO2 and there is no inkling anywhere in the world of what to do with that material on anywhere close to the kind of scale that results from burning 6 billion tons of coal per year plus 4 billion tons of oil and approximately 4 billion tons of methane.

The principle material left over from atomic fission is currently in the form of fuel bundles that look essentially identical to the ones that were initially put into the plant. They are radioactive, but they are also highly engineered solid material with corrosion resistant cladding designed to retain all fission products in even the aggressive environment of an operating reactor. The idea of "leakage" requires either a lack of education or a terrific imagination.

The material - amounting to about 2,000 tons per year in the entire US fleet of 104 reactors that produce 800 billion kilowatt hours every year - is easy to store and retain. After a cooling period of at least 5 years in a pool, the material can be put into dry storage containers - about 2 per year per plant, taking up the equivalent space of parking a couple of cars. Most of that can be recycled using technology that is not only known, but is in use at a reasonable scale.

The scale of the waste "problem" is far greater for coal, oil or gas, but we have been taught to believe that those fuels have solved their problems though the use of the atmosphere as their dump. Despite reality, some people call the careful storage of used nuclear materials "dumping". Go figure.
45 months ago: I've got 90 acres that I'd gladly turn into a storage lot for nuclear waste once it is properly packaged, won't charge much either, I'd get filthy rich, but I'm not going to be responsible for fighting the neighbors......
Rod Adams
Rod Adams
Annapolis, MD
45 months ago: @sixholdens - I concur. So does James Lovelock, the originator of the Gaia hypothesis that so many greens like to discuss. He has said that we could store some of the used material in his garden.

The nuclear industry current charges its customers a government mandated fee of 0.1 cent (1 mill) per kilowatt-hour of nuclear generated electricity. That rather modest fee still generated $800 million per year. Essentially all of the money that has been paid to the government since 1982 has simply been used like Social Security withholding that is in excess of the payouts - it has gone into making our enormous deficit look just a little bit smaller.

Since the average sales price for electricity in the US is 9 cents per kilowatt hour, that waste disposal fee could be increased by a factor of 2 or more without making any customer even notice the rounding error. The potential resources available to make a solution to used fuel storage work for long into the foreseeable future are quite sufficient for the task. It is only when people like Tom Lakosh apply their crazy fantasies for the next hundred thousand years that the problem looks unsurmountable.

The choice is pretty clear. Continue burning fossil fuel and NOT dealing with its waste stream because we have no idea how to do it. OR Build nuclear power plants as rapidly as feasible within safety constraints to reduce fossil fuel consumption as rapidly as possible.

Of course, fossil fuel pushers hate the second choice.
45 months ago: uh Rod, the 100,000 year figure is <5 half lives of Pu239 and I thought YOU suggested at least 10 to return a nuclide to insignificant concentrations.
Why are you so worried about coal wastes when you seem so willing to impose nuclear wastes on future generations?
Who's going to run plants and waste repositories when Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac really go belly up and the world economy collapses?
Mike Keller
Mike Keller
Overland Park, KS
45 months ago: "Zero" emissions from a fossil power plant (or vehicle, for that matter) is an unreasonable standard, just as unrestrained emissions is unreasonable.

My definition of “reasonable”: mankind (not a select few) should have the opportunity for a better life. That requires reasonably priced energy and that means we will impact the planet, in one way or the other.

Not burning any fossil fuels is simply not reasonable. While technology can reduce CO2 emissions (which, curiously enough, is vital to life), I'm not a big fan of pumping vast amounts of it into the ground as the full ramifications remain uncertain.

I believe a realistic and just approach lies with using our energy resources wisely (as in efficiently) while recognizing that no one source can do the entire job by itself.
45 months ago: @mike the value added by converting fuels to petrochemicals is very high. If you don't believe me now just wait until Isreal takes out Iran's nukes and they turn the Straits of Hormuz into a tanker graveyard. Oil wil hit $300/bbl in a week and the plastic bags at Safeway will go for 50 cents a pop.
45 months ago: Rod: the technology is here to not only consume CO2 and H2S but does so by producing valuable products. It looks like all fossil fuels will be economically and commercially refined into cleaner burning fuels, some in the very near future.

Catch the latest news at www.swapsol.com
Rod Adams
Rod Adams
Annapolis, MD
45 months ago: @Tom - I see no reason at all to put Pu-239 - which has an energy density of about 1 MW-day per gram, 3,000,000 times as much as coal, anywhere except in future reactors that can extract the energy while knocking the half-life from 24,000 years down to about 30 years.

Besides - even if short sighted governments decide to take the action of putting it into a long term repository because they remain enamored with oil, coal and natural gas and the contributions provided by those industries to their campaigns - how in the world is that material going to hurt anyone if they simply stay away from it and apply the well understood principles of minimize time, maximize distance and maximize shielding.

As my good friend Ted Rockwell says - all we need to do is put a sticker on the outside of the containers saying "do not eat". Eating used fuel would be bad for your health, but there are plenty of other things in the world that you can say that about.

Just in case you are not familiar with who Ted Rockwell is, he began studying nuclear technology in the early 1940s. He literally wrote the first book on radiation shielding and was Rickover's technical director during the construction of both the Nautilus and the Shippingport. He blogs at http://www.learningaboutenergy.com/.

He is a very knowledgeable source of information about nuclear matters who also demonstrates the lie in an assertion that lifelong association with nuclear materials is somehow uniquely dangerous.
45 months ago: hey Mike, I do not think that we will see oil or any other fossil fuel approach the inflated prices that we have seen this past year. As for plastic bags at Safeway you might check out "Practicle Applications for the Swapsol Processes" before you make a guess at the going price of crude and plastic bags. You just might find that plactics will be more economicle to recycle!

http://www.swapsol.com/images/docs/practical-applications.pdf
Rod Adams
Rod Adams
Annapolis, MD
45 months ago: @jon00052 - I visited swapsol.com this afternoon. It is a company that has a technology to sell that assists in the process of cleaning up extracted "sour" natural gas that is contaminated with both CO2 and H2S. It does not offer any solutions for getting rid of CO2 from the waste dumping smokestacks of power plants. The process that it uses requires both H2S and CO2 to be present with twice as much H2S as CO2. Here is the balanced equation from their web site;

2H2S + CO2 + CH4 => 2H2O + 2S + C + CH4

If there was twice as much H2S as CO2 in a typical smokestack emission stream, we would all be dead and the world would smell really bad.

BTW - care to offer any disclosures of your employment?

Here is mine - I am a full time, active duty member of the US Navy.
45 months ago: Yes all rods could have and should have the Pu precipitated and removed but industry kept on producing mixed waste anyway despite the implications.
So you're advocating surface storage with continual repackaging so people can read the label? Otherwise the burried canisters will corrode and migrate. That would likely contaminate aquifers if not surface waters as well and then how are you going to remove the Pu and why should you be allowed to place that burden on people 236,000 years from now by your own measure?
BTW how would you suggest securing the ulimate heat sink water from volcanic ash contamination?
Rod Adams
Rod Adams
Annapolis, MD
45 months ago: @Tom - Yes, I advocate surface storage with repackaging as required. Based on current engineering studies, the dry storage containers being produced are expected to last for at least 100 years.

My expectation is that it will not take humans long to figure out that those containers hold a vast treasure trove of readily accessible energy that requires some amount of recycling, but does not require exploration or extraction from the earth. I fully expect that realization will happen before the first repackaging is necessary. However, even if it does become necessary, the cost is tiny and the fuel will be much less radioactive and easier to handle than it was the first time. Sure, there are long lived actinides in the fuel bundles, but they are mostly alpha and beta emitters whose radiation cannot escape the cladding.

What are you talking about with regard to volcanic ash contamination? There is not much of that around on the earth's surface.

Once again, I am very confident that whatever burden used fuel puts on future society will be far more acceptable than the burden of living on an Earth that has been denuded of accessible hydrocarbons and whose atmosphere is contaminated with their residues. I am pretty certain that future societies will view our used fuel and the knowledge that we gain producing it one of their greatest inheritances from us.
45 months ago: Even under the most optimistic oil surveys and alternative power production scenarios, fossil oil and gas will be totally gone in well under 200 years so the dude who's cursing you out 10,000 years from now will wonder why you thought he would trade his use of long gone oil for clean water that he has to filter for every purpose.

Columbia took a hit from Mt. St. Hellens and I',m concerned about all potential sources. Here's some info from the director of the Yellowston Volcano Observatory:"When it comes to Yellowstone, or any other large caldera, we have very little experience with precursors to actual eruptions versus failed eruptions or "background" unrest, so any sort of decision tree based on past events is without much basis. So we are left with the analysis based on "strictly statistical" means based on previous eruptions.

I understand your criticism and I agree that it would be a real problem being ready for a super-eruption if it went from "0 to 60" in less than a week. I doubt that would happen, but if it did, we'd be screwed. At this point in time, we could spend a billion dollars in research and I'm pretty sure things wouldn't change on that one
point. I agree that it is worth having plans for major facilities
(such as nuclear power plants) to assess how they could deal with the effects of a major eruption."
45 months ago: @Rod;
Your whole system of maintenance depends on a fully funded nuclear priesthood for a timeframe that no society has endured. This is ignoring the "black swan" that can have devastating effects down the road. Ethics demands we limit the impacts to those who benefit from the endeavor. That's why you can **** at coal use and why I can **** at both.
45 months ago: My thanks to you for your service to our country, Rod.

I am employed in Fossil and Nuclear Power Generation and have been for 35 years.

The formula you site does not tell near the full story. You would have to spent hours at the site to get an idea of the impact that they will have on our world.

I would sugest that you start at Practicle Applications page.

http://www.swapsol.com/images/docs/practical-applications.pdf

One more thing, Nuclear will, at least in this country, continue to be a part of the energy mix.

As for "living on an Earth that has been denuded...." I do not think that is in the future. There are some companies that plan on using nano carbon structures as a soil additive to inhance agriculture!

Please look a little deeper.
Rod Adams
Rod Adams
Annapolis, MD
45 months ago: @jon0052 - Thank you for your service - generating electricity is a noble profession. (My dad did it for 35 years for FPL).

I expect there are plenty of companies doing interesting things and research.

My concerns about coal, oil and gas would not be as high except for several life experiences. I have studied in significant depth the effect that thirst for fossil fuel has had on our politics and history. I have also spent many months sealed under water within 200 feet of an operating reactor that produced almost no waste at all - the used material left over after 14 years of operation would have fit under my office desk, so I know there is an option.

All of the used material from all of the carriers and submarines (hundreds of cores) is all stored in a single pool that is smaller than the ones that I spent a lot of time in as a competitive swimmer.

I cannot explain or the irrational rantings of people like Lakosh. I have been around the material enough to be baffled by the concerns. The funding is pretty simple to understand. At a rate of just one mill per kilowatt hour, the nuclear industry in the US pays the US government $800 million per year for used fuel management. Applied intelligently, that will last a long time to provide necessary security.

I could be wrong, but I believe that part of the problem is the fossil fuel industry and its "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" support for people like Amory Lovins and Ralph Nader. That alliance of strange bedfellows has purposely tried to eliminate recycling and make storage seem hard in a failed attempt to constipate the industry.

In my mind's eye, I see atomic fission as a Gulliver that has been tied down by a bunch of threads produced by Lilliputians. Someday, there will be people who recognize the strength of the technology and tear out the threads that cannot really hold down the technological potential.
Rod Adams
Rod Adams
Annapolis, MD
45 months ago: @Tom -

"Even under the most optimistic oil surveys and alternative power production scenarios, fossil oil and gas will be totally gone in well under 200 years so the dude who's cursing you out 10,000 years from now will wonder why you thought he would trade his use of long gone oil for clean water that he has to filter for every purpose. "

That is only true if our current rate of consumption is assumed to continue. You think of optimism in that situation as finding more resources. Turn the situation around a bit and think about how long the material will last if we slow down our consumption to a point where we are not burning it for fuel, but just using it for raw material in applications like fertilizer or plastic production.

That scenario is possible, especially since one pound of uranium, thorium or plutonium contains as much energy as 3,000,000 pounds of coal or 2,000,000 pounds of oil. Uranium sells for about $60 per pound - care to hazard a guess as to the value of 1,500 tons of even "cheap" coal?

Remember, fission is just another way to boil water. Said another way, it is just a heat source that can be used in many of the same kinds of heat engines as fossil fuel. When you compare equal quantities of heat and thing about the technological 'S' curves that are possible, you can see why I think that we DO have a "silver(y)" bullet.

BTW - if there is a supereruption, I have other things that I am going to worry about besides the status of power plants.
45 months ago: Thanks Rod, I'll continue do my part to keep the lights on as long as you and your shipmates do your part to keep us free to do so!
45 months ago: That's the whole point, you and your industry are quitters when the going gets tough and fold like a cheap suit. That's why you shouldn't be allowed to play with sharp objects.
Your "pool" has been leaking into the Washington desert for 50 years making the Columbia one of the most radioactive rivers on earth and this cleanup isn't going very well is it? And that's just Hanford where every other fuel mine, enrichment, reprocessing and manufacturing plant also has serious contamination problems. And you think I'm the irrational one? swabbie, please.
Rod Adams
Rod Adams
Annapolis, MD
45 months ago: @tom - shows your ignorance. The pool I am referring to is not in Washington. Hanford was a place that produced nuclear weapons, not nuclear power reactors for ships. It is also not the final resting place for those ship reactors.

It is not a secret and the information is available on the web. Let's see if you have the capability to find real information instead of making it up as you go along.

That is swabbie sir, by the way.
45 months ago: http://www.osti.gov/bridge/servlets/purl/554774-nfXhNm/webviewable/554774.pdf
Second para. by 1996 55 sub cores were at long term storage at Hanford.
45 months ago: what, did the cat piss on your keyboard?
Rod Adams
Rod Adams
Annapolis, MD
45 months ago: @Tom - wrong. The document says the following in the second paragraph:

"In August 1996 it was reported that 55 reactor compartment sections from U. S. nuclear submarines were already in long-term storage at Hanford."

There is quite a difference between a reactor "core" and a reactor "compartment". The used fuel material from the cores are stored in a different state. The reactor compartments are slightly activated primary coolant systems that are well sealed - they were cut out intact from submarine hulls at the time of decommissioning.
45 months ago: So let's see here. You'll take credit for the contamination from neutron activated primary loop but not the regulatory faux pas, weapons manufacture, cooling water integrety, reactor operation in a crisis, the fuel mining, enrichment, fabrication or reprocessing. It's always someone elses problem when the sh*t hits the fan and you wonder why the liliputians are pissed?
Rod Adams
Rod Adams
Annapolis, MD
45 months ago: @Tom - what I will take credit for is knowing the difference between nuclear weapons and nuclear energy, the difference between reactor "compartments" and reactor "cores", the ability to dig beneath the scary words to find out that there are tens of thousands of people working with nuclear materials every day without any negative health effects, and the fact that nuclear fission's effects on the market supply of useful energy scares the heck out of the fossil fuel industry, which has a very clear understanding of how the law of supply and demand works to alter their profitability in a time of excess supply.

I will also take a bit of credit for taking the time to do obtain a real education with real professors and degrees, obtain real experience by actual plant operation over a number of years, and perform actual research using credible sources. I do not make stuff up in an attempt to scare people. I will not take credit for advocating a return to a pre-industrial way of life where simply surviving another winter is grounds for a celebration.

I will not buy into your attempts to win an argument using the technique of FUD (spreading fear, uncertainty and doubt) that only works when there is an audience that is not willing to listen carefully, evaluate facts and ask hard questions.
45 months ago: I love the way you deflect the central issue to falsely challenge a minor one but you're wrong on both counts:
http://ncseonline.org/NLE/CRSreports/04Dec/RS22001.pdf
@p.2 "Federally generated spent fuel originated from nuclear weapons production, the naval
reactor program, and Department of Energy (DOE)-sponsored research programs. The
spent fuel remains in interim storage at the Savannah River, Hanford, and Idaho National
Engineering and Environmental Laboratory (INEEL) defense sites."
All of these facilities have had leaks and accidents, but that apparently doesn't matter to you because you think Chernobyl is an acceptible loss, Columia River contamination is just fine, and dumping cores off of Novaya Vemlya or waste into Lake Baikal is just fine too. This shows that you're just as willing to create both regional contamination and eventually the global contamination that you complain about with coal.
Hopefull folks will see that you and the rest of your industry are willing to use the public common to dispose of your hazardous waste and bypass proper security and operating measures to promote the ecomonic viability of your industry in the same manner coal does.
Rod Adams
Rod Adams
Annapolis, MD
45 months ago: @Tom - you may want to obfuscate the issue by lumping all things "nuclear" into the same category, but that is about as useful as lumping napalm production with gasoline production.

There is a big difference between nuclear weapons production - especially that conducted in Washington during the period from 1944-1945 and nuclear energy production in either commercial power plants or on board US Navy ships.

The US commercial power plant used fuel has never leaked and is mainly stored on the site where it was produced. The US Navy's used fuel has also never leaked and is stored in a single location in Idaho at INL, not in Washington at Hanford.

My central point in this discussion is that nuclear energy does far more good than bad and that it offers the ONLY way to enable everyone to have an opportunity for a prosperous, comfortable lifestyle. You obviously hate the lifestyle that I think is a pretty good way to live. You are perfectly within your rights to choose that for yourself, but I disagree with your assertion that you have the right to make that choice for others. The wind and sun will never enable our current human population to live comfortably, they will certainly not support the projected population increases.

Fission can do the job and do it more cleanly and cheaply than fossil fuels. I have no doubt that the transition will take a long time - I understand inertia.

However, it will be a change that will make the world a cleaner, more comfortable place and it will provide a lot of great jobs that provide terrific technical training and a sense of responsibility and accomplishment.
45 months ago: Dude, you're the one making the choices for people for the next 460,000 years to support your "comfortable lifestyle".
You want to limit the impacts of nuclear power to a limited set of circumstances in order to deny a discussion of the broader societal implications. All's it takes to get back to the neglect of the AEC in the '40s and '50s or the screwups of the Soviet Union is a major economic depression. You can't insure that this won't happen 1,000 times over the lifetime of your wastes.
Your refusal to engage this debate shows your bias to promote your interest without ethical constraint.
Rod Adams
Rod Adams
Annapolis, MD
45 months ago: @Tom - yes, I am biased towards the use of nuclear energy. I do have ethics; they are apparently different from yours. I care far more about doing the very best that I can with the knowledge that we have today to make the world a better place for the 6 billion people who live here now and for the reasonably predictable 9 billion people who will be here within the next 50-100 years. I cannot claim godly qualities of being able to peer into the distant future; my crystal ball is just too cloudy for that.

I work hard to promote knowledge so that people can overcome irrational fears. Despite all of the publicized "leaks" and contamination that you love to dramatize, the facts are pretty clear - you cannot point to any injury or death anywhere in the world that a court of law would attribute to exposure to used nuclear material from a commercial power plant. If it does not hurt us now, why are you so sure it will hurt humans half a million years from now? Of course I am setting myself up for an immediate complaint from you, but Chernobyl is excluded from that.

Nuclear energy is dangerous if not properly handled; all energy sources are. The answer to that is to properly handle it. Mining coal without proper safety precautions is dangerous - the Chinese still kill about 5,000 people per year in coal mines, while the US, which at one time had a very dangerous coal mining industry, has an annual death toll of less than 100. Still not perfect, but apparently that is reasonably acceptable to the general public and the employees in the industry given the benefits that accrue.

(continued)
Rod Adams
Rod Adams
Annapolis, MD
45 months ago: Natural gas still kills fairly frequently - few people remember the catastrophic accident that occurred on December 23, 2003, less than 6 years ago, where more than 250 people were killed almost instantly and where 9,000 people were hospitalized with serious injuries due to a blow out at a gas well in rural China. Almost no one remembers the family of 12 that was camping near the Pecos River near Carlsbad NM in August of 2000. That entire family was killed - some of them painfully slowly - as a result of a gas pipeline explosion.

Wind and solar are not exempt - the highest workman's compensation rates in the State of Florida where I used to manage a business apply to people who work on roofs. Those who work on cranes at 400 feet above the ground are also at risk of gravity taking their lives. Sure, the potential for scary scenarios is less, but at least nuclear plants put their vulnerable parts inside well engineered buildings instead of hanging them out in the weather and exposing them to the chance of harming people when they catastrophically fail or are blown around by storms.

Perhaps the most frequent energy related deaths are those that are really caused by a lack of energy. I include all of the people who die each day from water born illnesses - the difference between clean and dirty water is the application of a little energy in the process. In a modern society, people die when electricity is not available for just a little while.

You keep your ethics. Work as hard as you want to change people's minds.

Do not expect a lack of opposition to your philosophies.
45 months ago: Until another source of energy as clean as nuclear will come close to what this industry achieved, nuclear will stay number one. looking at 2007 numbers:
- capacity factor : 91.8%
- Electricity cost: 1.68 cents per kWh

Sure, the nuclear industry made some mistakes and learned from it. It is now the best suited energy source for mankind prosperity until we find a more dense energy source like fusion.

Going for less dense energy sources, like wind, solar, etc is physically and economically nonsensical.

Except maybe for people who would like to go back 100 years in the past and live a simpler life with 1 billion people on the planet.

Evolution dictates that the energy sources we need must evolve to higher and higher energy flux densities.

We will not go on mars with solar panels and wind power!

Make sure you see this presentation on what could become the next source of nuclear power based on thorium:
http://thoriumenergy.blogspot.com/2009/07/tech-talk-in-tech-paradise.html
45 months ago: So if I understand the argument, nuclear should be allowed to kill as many as coal because it's cheaper than the environmentally benign alternative that causes job site accidents and the mistakes of the past will never happen again over 460,000 years because there will alway be competent oversight of operations and waste storage.
History teaches some of us that natural, political and economic catastrophes can bring any society to its knees and your hoped for infallible nuclear priesthood is a myth you must perpetuate to justify your virtually perpetual impact. For the money you'd invest in developing, deploying any maintaining the thorium reactors/fuel cycle you could deploy a benign set of enhanced geothermal, PV/T, wind, wave, tidal, ocean thermal, etc for an endless source of benign energy that you could walk away from without consequence.
45 months ago: Tom,

How do you arrive at your cost conclusion on your alternative energy sources in comparison to nuclear? Real-world data from DOE's Energy Information Administration shows nuclear to be a proven performer. Real-world data for alternative energy shows it to be very expensive, while sacrificing grid stability. Check out Eon's reports on grid stability in Germany.

It seems to me that for all the money spent on alternative energy and nuclear, I'm pretty sure that nuclear has the best economic return on investment by far.

And where are you coming up with all this "deadly" nuclear energy stuff? If nuclear energy is so "deadly" then why does France (which relies on around 80% nuclear) have the lowest cancer rates, lowest infant mortality, and longest life expectancy of any country in Europe?

Your claims don't seem to be supported by real-world data.
45 months ago: Tom,

From all the comments I see here, I don't think we will change your mind on the subject... So I will not try to convince you of anything.

That said, I have kept during the last 30 years, I am 44 now, an open mind on all sources of energy. I have used and tested solar and wind as a hobby, having done R&D in electronics for 15+ years, I had a good understanding of everything involved.

I then realized that if we need to give 10 billions people (projecting a bit in the future here) a descent energy level (assuming all sources) like we have in Canada for example, then the amount of energy needed is enormous. More so if you include desalination plants to feed and provide water to those 10 billions, since the fresh water resources left will be insufficient.

I then calculated what would be needed by using only "lower density level" energy sources and came to the conclusion (like many others) that those sources would not provide enough for the planet. It would be physically impossible to provide the necessary energy for a growing planet without higher density energy.

Many good books have been written on this subject by very competent people and proved that point.
(continued)
45 months ago: (part 2)

Some I have read are:
http://www.terrestrialenergy.org/
http://www.beyondfossilfools.com/

Myself and others in a group call the "builder of nations" have also calculated what would be needed and came to those conclusion. We have made a public conference on the subject (in French) that you can find here:
http://batisseursdenations.org/11mars09.php

We need to keep an open mind and be prepared to do what is needed for the future of human kind.

There are still challenges headed and will we solve them. Not so long ago, electricity was considered dangerous and evil...

We have ways of getting rid of long lived nuclear "waste" and find more ways to do so in the near future.

Human ingenuity, creativity and resources will resolve those issues that seems insurmountable today.

You can be either part of that process or against it. That is up to you.
45 months ago: IF you had a rapid and cheap means to securely get spent fuel without transuranics to a stable long term disposal site, and IF you could insure long term scientific regulation and professional operation of plants, and IF you could secure fuel, waste and plants against attack by suicidal zelots, I might actually agree with you but that's three too many IFs to even concieve of adding another ounce of transuranic contaminate fission waste to the biosphere.
45 months ago: BTW are you guys supporting shipping nuclear plants to Iran and Pakistan? After all it's yummy clean energy that can't go wrong.
45 months ago: If you could come up with a way to solve ALL of your alternative energy source inadequacies, then perhaps I (and the other commenters here) might agree with you as well.

Unfortunately, stipulating the prerequisite that solving ALL of the problems associated with any given thing would bring all progress to a grinding halt. It's a very strange, dysfunctional world you imagine, Mr. Lakosh.

As for me, as long as countries (including my own) are open for international inspection and accountability, I don't have a problem with the concept of them using nuclear energy.
45 months ago: Mike you're absolutely correct that international law says you get to build it irrespective of the fact that IAEA inspections can be stopped at anytime and zelots can take over operation and distribute the enriched fuel and waste to anyone they choose. Okay, we're back to a burning Straits of Hormuz, $300/bbl oil and collapse of the world economy with nobody paying for idle nuke plant operation or maintaining waste storage. "My future's so bright, I gotta wear shades!", from radiation of my corneas.
45 months ago: Hmm... So your argument is that just because there's somebody out there somewhere that would misuse a technology, then the technology itself should no longer be used by anyone for any purpose whatsoever?

With that argument, we should stop producing kerosene and fertilizer since somebody might make a bomb. We should stop producing airplanes since somebody might fly one into a high-rise building. Heck, we should stop producing high-rise buildings too to keep so many people from getting killed if some zealot flies an illegally-produced plane into one.

Most of your arguments against are based on fear-mongering predictions: waste, death, devastation, expense...

Your arguments are illogical. We cannot solve ALL problems before progress. We cannot eradicate zealots. And we cannot abandon profoundly efficient and useful technologies simply because they can be misused.
45 months ago: Yes Mike, a tech with such severe consequences should be shunned like the plague utill our society and law can support its safe operation. allof the other techs you mentioned do cause devastation but primarily to those who profit from their use. Nukes spread that liability over such a long timeframe to innocent people and their environment that it makes the $11 trillion debt look like a good investment for our kids.
45 months ago: Obviously, I disagree with you. We CAN support its safe operation. We've been doing it for half a century. This argument is unwinnable, because you will simply ignore the safety record, low operational expense, and reliability of commercial nuclear operations.

Answer please:

Why don't nuclear workers themselves - the ones that work right next to the reactors - show increased cancer rates?

Why isn't France bankrupt and their population living in poverty from relying on 80% of their electricity from 59 nuclear reactors?

Why does France have such low infant mortality rates, low cancer rates, and long life-span?

Ignore the questions if you wish. Ignorance is no excuse.
45 months ago: Oh... Two more questions:

If those other technologies I mentioned don't affect innocent people, then please tell me: What was the ratio of "innocents" to "guilties" in the Oklahoma City bombing? How about the World Trade Centers in 9/11?

Don't be so hypocritical in your selective opposition to technologies. If you're going to oppose technology because it can be used in a dangerous and devestating way, then you should at least be consistent about it.
45 months ago: Rod & Mike: Thanks for a great blog/debate. I pray that your efforts & wisdom here will soften the "Tom Lakoshes" and help people understand that there are many good people in the Nuclear world (including the "Tom Lakoshes") that are making our world Safer, Cleaner and a Better Place to raise our children. Thanks again Rod.
45 months ago: You audaciously assume that these societal controls will remain in effect forever when no government has survived for more than a couple centuries. Your typical lack of vision is the underlying problem for dozens of environmental catastrophies: global warming, CFCs, acid rain, mercury contamination, plastics contamination, PCBs, lead poisoning, ocean acidification etc. You simply don't recognize and refuse to consider the frailty of civilization itself.
Speaking of lack of vision, my nuclear lab prof. had to wear shades.
45 months ago: Hey Altruist, Sorry I did not mean to leave you out of the picture! Thanks for sharing your information with us. I am looking forward to seeing great things from Solar as well as from all of the other Energy Sources as we grow with the new (and old ) inovations. It just takes a glance around the Internet to realized that Great Change is upon us.
45 months ago: The truly insidious nature of radioactive nuclides is that they chemically react identically to their non-radioactive counterparts so there's extreme difficulty to separate them unless you forego use of that element altogether once they're released into the biosphere. That's why most nations signed on to the Nuclear Test Ban Treaty and given the inability to unconditionally isolate reactor wastes cited above, a Nuclear Ban Treaty should logically follow.
45 months ago: Give it up Tom! Your audacity is unreal! And your atitude only undermines your good work.
45 months ago: Give it up Tom! Your audacity is unreal! And your atitude only undermines your good work.
45 months ago: Thanks jon00052.

I think the "visionaries" like Tom, don't envision the unintended consequences of their opposition to nuclear. By opposing the MVP in efficient, economical, and reliable electrical generation, they are actually *promoting* more reliance of fossil fuels.

Ironically, the fossil fuel companies (not his precious alternative energies) are the ones that benefit the most from the outspoken, anti-nuclear, fear-mongering visionaries like Tom.

I envision that a combination of conservation, renewables, alternative energy, and nuclear are the only way to reduce and eliminate our dependency on fossil fuels - at least in the next half-century. But what do I know? Scientists, Technicians, and Engineers don't have the luxury of using fear and conjecture in their calculations about their vision of the future.
45 months ago: With regard to the "Don't Eat This" sign. I don't think most Al Qeada operatives can read and would glady eat it if they could. The human condition is fraught with flaws that demand we use the rubber tipped scissors for a while.
45 months ago: That's the point!, scientists and engineers will produce ANYTHING to keep their jobs without ethical consideration, e.g. weaponized small pox, VX gas. Look for a more benign energy solution to evade the potentially devastating consequences of inept/compromized nuclear oversight.
45 months ago: Thanks Michael, Please echeck out www.swapsol.com, I am sure that what you find there will give you much to think about. Their solutions for GHGs are very real and offer much to improve the Environment. Enjoy.
45 months ago: @jon- If you would please study the biological effects of ionizing radiation, the worldwide regulation of nuclear technologies and the political, economic and natural vulnerabilities of societies, I truly believe that my "audacity" wouldn't hold a candle to those who demand we commit to a nuclear priesthood for 460,000 years just to make them "comfortable" by paying a few cents less per kwh. That's audacity beyond compare!
45 months ago: @jon Rod had it right, there's a very small ratio of H2S to CO2 in flue gas and even the sourest produced natural gas. While swapsol may be a small incremental energy saver, it's no source panacia and there's lots of existing CO2 capture methods, it's just that they'd price fossil fuels out of the energy market.
It's this failure to price in these external costs that allows coal and nukes to survive. If nukes are so cheap, why doesn't the industry just buy a disposal site, vitrify the waste, put it in 6" thick canisters and burry it? Why not, because they're relying on the eternal federal subsidy of waste disposal that allows them to exclude these externalized costs from the price of their energy.
45 months ago: Tom you obviously are not grasping the whole picture at Swapsol. They are offering a way to open up the 40% of the Natural gas reserves that are not economically viable AND make harmless millions of tons of CO2 and hazzardous waste sulphur products from the the petroleum industries. Combining Hazardous waste with hazardous waste AND making valuable in demand products like carbon fiber structures IS NOT A SMALL INCREMENTAL ENERGY SAVING DISCOVERY. THESE DISCOVERIES MAY PROVE TO BE ONE THE BIGGEST WORLD CHANGING DISCOVERIES EVER! THEY MAY JUST ALLOW US TO ELIMINATE THE NEED FOR NUCLEAR POWER IF WE CHOOSE TO! STOP AND SMELL THE ROSES TOM.
45 months ago: @tom You are wrong. There is NO waste disposal subsidy. The industry DOES pay for safe storage of the so-called "waste" in on-site dry cask storage. And the INDUSTRY has also paid billions of dollars into the federal government's waste disposal fund. So, basically, the INDUSTRY has paid for waste disposition TWICE! That is NOT an "externalized" cost. Your statement is false and egregious.

Furthermore, you have ignored the questions I have asked you above. Apparently, when you are faced with actually having to address real-world, factual information, you have simply moved on to the next bit of misinformation.

If you're not going to play fair, then quit the game.
45 months ago: mike, i'm not sure which question you think is unanswered but I'll try again. You're examples of existing nuclear societies are short sighted and do not account for the inevitible rise and fall of societies. Not one nuclear power has a long term high level waste disposal plan and few disposal tech and sites can insure geologic isolation for the lifetime of transuranics, (I was generous by only citing Pu with a high biological half life where U is much more long lived).
Now you can tell me how you can insure the indefinite viability of your nuclear priesthood, perhaps an AIG policy?
45 months ago: Tom, according to you, is it then too late for all the "waste" and weapons we have create so far, Humanity is doomed?

To put it in your own words, how can you ensure the indefinite viability of your solution?
45 months ago: So your answer is we have to produce more waste because we already screwed the pouch? We've known for 40 years that we need to make waste highly insoluable through vitrification and then place it in thick corrosion resistant canisters in geologically stable formations to forestall waste migration after canister corrosion, but this is too expensive and would cause a enoumous rate hike for disposal. It's the same deal with your accident/Price Anderson insurance that won't cover remediation. Nukes are heavily subsidiezed even if you don't want to admit it. Stop it now and bite the bullet on vitrification.
45 months ago: I am simply asking... do you see a solution or not?

From what you say, there is a solution? Vitrification?

What about reprocessing?

I love it when you assume all we want to do is produce more waste, like we do not care. What frame of mind are you in to treat people like this so casually? What happend to you? How did you loose all sense of hope?


Mike Keller
Mike Keller
Overland Park, KS
45 months ago: Tom,
Seems to me your fundamental thesis of absolute protection for the lifetime of transuranics is flawed as is your apparent thesis that mankind is doomed to become a "Mad Max" society.

Relative to the first thesis, a more reasonable standard would be to reduce the risk to an exceptionally small level along the lines of: (1) minimize the amount of nuclear waste (2) make sure it is exceptionally rugged and stable and (3) put it somewhere that is difficult to get at (e.g. deep storage in a stable geological formation like a salt dome). Use thorium as a fuel (which has been done) and the problem is solved for all intense purposes.

Not possible you say? It is very difficult for conventional nuclear power … but not for a hybrid-nuclear energy plant. Contact me at m.keller@hybridpwr.com and I will be happy to send you a technical paper on the emerging technology.

Can not really help you with the 2nd thesis, other than to observe that without abundant and affordable energy, appears to be a self fulfilling prophesy.

Regards,

Mike
45 months ago: Reprocessing, vitrification and you'd have to buy off all the NIMBYs that control the siting at a truly stable geologic site. Instituting this relatively sound practice would certainly put nukes out of competition with several alternative energy sources, but who's counting?
I'm so cynical because I've carefully observed powerful interests buy off legislators and bureaucrats every time they get caught with their pants down. All of the examples of catastrophic environmental pollution cited above has its associated protectionist legislation and long history of bureacratic neglect/compromise. Here's a few more: wiretapping of US citizens, oil pollution insurance with OPA '90, asbestos, tobacco, heavy metal mining, etc. I see our gov't selling F-16s to Pakistan and nukes to India. How many examples of poor gov't policy lobbied to promote hazardous industries do you need?
45 months ago: Tom... Now there is something we agree on. CORRUPTION all over the place... My recommendation, this is where you should put that wonderful energy and debate prowess you have. Not against your fellow engineers that are only there to make the world a better place.

Peace ;)
45 months ago: Here's my preferred hybrid plant: Use Ausra'a fresnel reflectors to illuminate a heat pipe covered with type III-V PV cells and preheat water for a combined cycle gas turbine that uses syngas pyrolized from garbage and methane from a algae and sewage sludge digester. The steam condenser in the combined cycle would be cooled with cyclopentane enhanced with Metal Organic Heat Carriers fed through an additional Organic Rankine Cycle generator. The heat from the ORC and the flue gas from the gas turbine would be circulated through an algae farm with nutrients supplied by sewage water. This yields a 25% solar PV efficiency, a >65% power conversion from a carbon positive fuel source with >85% CHP efficiency toward recycling of carbon through algae. You'd have a few citing problems trying to get close to the municipal fuel source but...
45 months ago: Thanks for the compliment but since I'm calculus challenged, I never got an engineering degree. I'm just an observant layperson.
45 months ago: That explains a lot.
45 months ago: You don't have to be an engineer to properly analyse the futility of "safe nukes". Your engineering mindset lets you overlook the political and social realities with the mindset of "I know I can calculate a solution". You're still unwilling to admit that the required nuclear priesthood is just a geek's wet dream.
While I'm a little geekish myself, I've at least have the sense to look for benign solutions where human frailty precludes a the degree of certainty needed to prevent irrevocable adverse impacts over extreme time horizons.
So tell me why your hybrid is better than mine.
45 months ago: In your vast expertise and brilliance you already seemed to have determined what is good and evil by fiat. You can learn nothing more from me, young padawan. Your judgment is clouded by cynicism and fear.

"Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering." - Yoda
45 months ago: So my hybrid is evil and yours is benign? Why don't you put that pocket protector to work for the force? Look up DawnSolar. I've got a better BIPV/T system if you want to develop it. Look up Hywind and imagine cables strung between floaters that allow mounting of wave absorbers and tidal generators. I've got a helical generator concept that will allow simultaneous vertical and radial energy capture from waves and ocean currents. See the light feel the ocean Anikan.
45 months ago: Tom, you said “IF you had a rapid and cheap means to securely get spent fuel without transuranics to a stable long term disposal site, and IF you could insure long term scientific regulation and professional operation of plants, and IF you could secure fuel, waste and plants against attack by suicidal zelots, I might actually agree with you but that's three too many IFs to even concieve of adding another ounce of transuranic contaminate fission waste to the biosphere.”

Each and every one of your concerns is also a concern for fossil fueled power plants. The biggest difference between fossil fueled plants and nuclear fueled plants, according to your concerns is the waste generated. Fossil fueled plants generate hundreds of tons of waste and nuclear fueled plants DON’T and the nuclear waste is stored on site in containers that can withstand immense abuse and the fossil fuel waste is spread across the globe as GHG’s and ash. Sure there are some methods of treating FFW and containing SOME of it, but the majority of it is still with us and is not contained. Your argument about the longevity of nuclear waste and how it will affect our descendents for 460K years is overshadowed by the FF industries already soiled past and future.

If lethality of the waste is your main concern, you lose by virtue of shear volume.

As for the nut cases getting hold of a plant and spreading the fuel around for dirty bombs and crap like that, give it a rest, they had and have many opportunities to do just that and if they really want to, NO ONE can stop them.
45 months ago: You need to study world history a little bit more, “when no government has survived for more than a couple centuries” is about as un-educated a statement as you have uttered so far. Please don’t tell the ancient Egyptians that their form of government only lasted a couple hundred years, they might take offense.

Tell me, how are you going to guarantee the C02 sequestering reservoirs, old wells that are being used (and many planned) to store excess C02, from rupture when an earthquake or volcano erupts in the middle of them? You talk about the problem of nuclear waste and natural disasters, now tell us how your fossil fuel waste is going to be contained FOREVER (or at least 460K years). Fair is fair. By the way, I am not a MAN MADE climate change supporter.

Again Tom, “powerful interests buy off legislators and bureaucrats every time they get caught with their pants down. All of the examples of catastrophic environmental pollution cited above has its associated protectionist legislation and long history of bureacratic neglect/compromise.” Are you talking about the fossil fuels industry or both? I would say both because the FFI has been at this game longer than the nuclear industry. Talk about money greasing palms…..

In case you are wondering, I have 70+ messages to read and comment on and am going through them as I type this.

I too am an under-educated layperson, I just have a more open mind than Tom has.

As for your hybrid power plant, in what century will it be online? Sounds like about 2 billion to build and test and that is just one plant, we need 500 or more, by Christmas………

I’d like one in my back yard, home sized and I have a $100 a month I can devote just to it. Oh not enough? Well crap, I thought you were going to save me some money. Guess I’ll get that nuclear reactor up and running, I know it will work and for less than my budget.
45 months ago: Six find Helio Dynamics for a PV/T system today and ask about their ORC add on. You can even go to Capstone for a 30 KWe CHP gas turbine.
I don't know why you think I'm defending coal at all. I just finally got fed up with old Bremsstrahlung calling the coal kettle black.
Rod Adams
Rod Adams
Annapolis, MD
44 months ago: @Tom - I happen to be a big fan of Capstone turbines - I have been a stockholder for many years, not all good ones. However, those turbines run on fossil fuel. Sure, sometimes they run on politically correct "natural gas", but the fact is that they burn stuff that has to be extracted from the earth.

Their fuel also produces a high volume waste stream that has to be dumped into our common atmosphere. Sure, if you dilute that waste stream, it does not normally kill anyone directly, but the supply side is known to be a dangerous industry that requires care and training to enable safety programs to be reasonably successful.

When we accuse you of supporting coal, it is by default. In the US, 49% of our electricity is produced by burning coal, 20% by atomic fission, 21% by gas, 6% by large hydro, 1.3% by burning wood and other biomass. The remaining portion is where 35 years worth of hard work in developing wind (1.2%), solar (0.02%) and geothermal (0.3%) fits. (All from EIA data tables for 2008)

Electricity generation - http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/epm/table1_1.html

Other renewables table - http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/alternate/page/renew_energy_consump/table3.html

BTW - the 30 kwe Capstone turbine is only about 30% thermally efficient and is normally sold in a liquid fuel burning configuration. It also costs upwards of $30 K and can produce enough power to supply about 10 homes in the US.

http://www.capstoneturbine.com/_docs/C30%20Liquid%20Fuel.pdf

At today's diesel fuel prices, the cost per kilowatt hour would be in excess of 10 cents.

Your liturgy is nothing new, Amory Lovins and Harvey Wasserman have been preaching it and convincing people in high places to try it for 35 years. Reality continues to get in the way of the solartopia/soft energy future.
44 months ago: I was just recommending a backyard version of my base/peaking hybrid plant for six. The plant version uses carbon neutral gasified MSW and digested sewage + algae to fuel the combined cycle gas turbine, (http://www.gepower.com/prod_serv/products/gas_turbines_cc/en/stag/index.htm), but I'd redesign the steam condeser to incorporate another bottoming cycle using a MOHC enhanced working fluid for the ORC. The ORC must be cooled by the algae pond and the gas turbine flue would vent to the covered algae pool that gets mineral nutrients from sewage water and the algae would recycle the carbon in the sewage digester. The steam bootoming cycle would have its water preheated by the PV/T field.
This system not only cascades heat collection on the way to the turbines, it cascades the heat extraction on the way down too.
It coincidentally eliminates the need for garbage dumps and sewage treatment as well. In fact youcould site the whole shebang on the now useless garbage dump. If so, you could extract additional methane from the old garbage as well.
44 months ago: So Rod which hybrid is better for the environment? Should DOE subsidize your hybrid and nuclear waste dump or my dump eliminating solar/biogas/ORC hybrid?
Mike Keller
Mike Keller
Overland Park, KS
44 months ago: Tom,
Might want to check out Seasolarpower.com. These guys are developing a pretty unique ocean thermal power plant that relies on using a refrigerant boiled off by low grade heat, run thru a turbine/generator and then a condenser. Might be able to exploit your temperature difference to produce power.
44 months ago: Yeah, I threw in OTEC in the blog above but it's a tough sell given the very low temperatures and delta. They'll probably use a Kalina cycle but if you look closely at their model, they're using a huge/expensive platorm for a tiny power output and they still have to transmit it to shore. OTEC, wave and ocean current power really only become cost effective if they share infrastructure with a big floating wind farm, preferrably using something like the 10 MW Aerogenrators.
Rod Adams
Rod Adams
Annapolis, MD
44 months ago: @Tom - I do not expect any subsidies. It would be nice, however, if the rules governing the NRC did not require them to charge applicants $250,000 to turn in an application for a license plus charge $257 for every hour that a regulator spends reviewing the application. The normal time frame for technology that the regulators understand is 42 months with a total cost estimated at $60-100 million. For a technology that is more difficult for them to understand like closed Brayton cycle gas turbines that were first built in the early 1960s - figure on a few additional years and several tens of millions more to pay for the training.

So - what are the obstacles that have been erected in your way before you are even allowed to build your first unit?
44 months ago: Are you going to buy your own accident insurance and permnanently dispose of your waste? If not, you're relying on DOE to dispose of waste and Price Anderson and that's subsidized disposal and insurance?
I used the term "my hybrid" loosely in that it's my concept without any hope of actually building one myself. If you're worried that "my hybrid" would be too easy to build, why don't you build it instead of an HTGR.
Mike Keller
Mike Keller
Overland Park, KS
44 months ago: Small point, a closed-cycle (air) Brayton cycle was built in Zurich at the Escher Wyss factory (Zurich) in 1939 based on the the work, in part, of Professor C. Keller (no relation, as far as I know).

As to Tom's hybrid, does not appear to be commercially viable, relative to the competition; too small, too expensive.

Will we (my company, General Atomics and Black & Veatch) ever build a hybrid-nuclear plant? Hard to say, as it is not a conventional approach.

44 months ago: The competition is about to be regulated by EPA for GHGs and cap and trade to boot. The size is only limited by the fuel source and there's lots of MSW and sewage in the South with any additional biomass and even natural gas an option. The land for a large solar field would be harder to come by but HCPV and CSP are becoming competative and the combination of the two on the same infrastructure should help, particularly where the steam turbine is shared with/as the gas turbine combined cycle. The ORC steam condenser should pay for itself as well by boosting the steam cycle efficieny >10%.
Also remember this replaces a landfill and sewage/water treatment plant so these deferred costs must be included as an asset. It's probably still close but I bet carbon credits would make the difference.
Rod Adams
Rod Adams
Annapolis, MD
44 months ago: @Mike - You are correct about the first closed Brayton cycle. I left out a key word in my comment - the first nuclear heated closed Brayton cycle was built in the US in the early 1960s. It was a small unit designed to produce 300 kwe. It used N2 gas for the coolant and was transportable by Army vehicles - in about 6 containers.

ML-1 was not a huge success and only operated for a few hundred hours and never produced its rated power, but there were some very interesting lessons learned. Unfortunately, none were really followed up on due to a confluence of factors including a diversion of Army funds to southeast Asia, strong opposition to the Army developing a nuclear energy capability by a talented bureaucratic infighter from the Navy named Rickover, and probably some other factors that are a bit more difficult to explain.

Rod Adams
Rod Adams
Annapolis, MD
44 months ago: @Tom - I am pretty sure that your hybrid can be built and even that it can produce some electricity. I cannot see that it would produce much electricity, that it would actually be clean (the fuels you are talking about using have some pretty nasty characteristics), or that it would ever be competitive without massive continuing subsidies, just like every other non fossil, non fission "alternative" energy system (outside of large scale hydro).

Fission can be exceedingly competitive without subsidies. The used material is valuable raw material that never really needs disposal, it just needs secure storage. I will not agree that the owner of that material has to prove that it will remain secure even if society collapses and all knowledge of simple radiation protection techniques disappears.

Yes, I do think that any plant owner should be able to buy the necessary insurance. I just will never agree that the physically impossible scenarios that you imagine are some thing that should be included in the potential liability determination. It would be like telling a city that they could never build a stadium unless they are able to find an insurance policy that could provide unlimited coverage to all of the fans and their extended families in the case of an aircraft attack.

One more thing - I do not defend large industrial entities. That activity is not my responsibility. Some companies do a great job, others are more focused on money that on doing well to earn their money. I do defend physics and atomic technology and believe very strongly that it offers all humans hope for continued prosperity.
44 months ago: @Rod, @Tom,

One thing that nuclear does well and will do better in the near future is it can operate in isolation anywhere.

There is a good article on this here:
http://tinyurl.com/knwwmm
44 months ago: I understand your zeal and attachment to a tech with such potential and you'll be tickled to know that James Hanson agrees on using thorium. I even understand why you think liability for security and waste maintenance should be borne by national interests. Your personal investment/attachment is, however, overwhelming your perspective in that these potentially very high external costs more than offset the benefits. When you invoke national support to mitigate national impact, those policy makers must consider those external costs in assessing the full range of alternatives.
Your skepticsm regarding the responsibility of corporate interests belies your confidence in technicrats to maintain safe operation and storage. This skepticsm is well founded and you must give it equal ground with your technicrat zeal. If you did, you'd realize that the externalized risks of nukes far outweighs the cost of relatively benign alternatives.
Moreover, if we just redirected all of that brain power that gave us HTGRs, and space exploration to refine collection of difuse energy, we'd have chearper energy delivered to our door that allowed local sustainability without the need of a Big Brother bureacracy to insure security over millennia.
44 months ago: Hey all, I am glad that you ALL are seeing more eye to eye today. I would like to add a couple more technologies. I think it is known as Wavepower or something like that. They harness the motion of the waves thru hydraulics by linking long tubes mechanically together. And the other was wave turbines or something like that. They place turbines in the ocean currents much like wind turbines in air. Both seem like good viable projects.
You both know my favorite Swapsol. You will be hearing lots about them in the news soon. They are kicking off October 21st with a seminar at Rutgars University.
Hope to see and hear more from you all and your projects.

Thanks for sharing!
44 months ago: Technology allows the recycling of used fuel into components that can be dispositioned in one of three ways:

1. Fissionable material which can be used as fuel.
2. Fission products whose activity will be less than the original uranium ore in less than 300 years - (no priesthood required).
3. Uranium 238, which is no more radioactive or poisonous than the ore that exists naturally.

And even if it's not recycled, it's already an extremely small quantity of waste, especially when compared to the toxic heavy metals that have to be dispositioned from the production of solar panels for the equivalent energy production.

But comparing it to solar panels is irrelevant. In all practical terms, less nuclear means more dependence on fossil fuels. Less nuclear means more CO2. Less nuclear means more SOx, NOx, and mercury emissions. Less nuclear means more mountaintop removal. Less nuclear means more reliance on oil.
44 months ago: Tom wants to trade nuclear for the HOPE of an unrealistic expansion of renewables. HOPE is a good thing, but it is not a plan. Tom can make claims of what is 'possible' and what 'can be'. Engineers, on the other hand, must take into account practical considerations of what is feasible and affordable. What Tom suggest may be feasible, but it has never been demonstrated on a global scale and is therefore no substitute for proven existing technologies. The present reality means that in the short to medium term we must continue to rely on conventional sources of energy – mostly fossil fuels. Even so, this doesn't absolve us of any obligation to do it as cleanly and efficiently as possible.

Here's the reality: In the US, fossil fuels account for over 70% of the electricity. Nuclear energy for 20%. Solar? Less than one-tenth of one percent. Add to this, that worldwide demand is expected increase - not decrease.

The problem we face is that we must REDUCE our reliance on fossil fuels while INCREASING the energy supply -- AT THE SAME TIME! This task is difficult enough, even WITH a dramatic expansion of nuclear power!

Clearly, with the problems of energy shortages, rising costs, and real or not, the possibility of climate change, we should be focusing our resources on replacing fossil fuel use (70%). Not eliminating the only real, proven alternative: nuclear energy (20%).
44 months ago: And Tom, don't think no one has noticed that you continue to avoid answering those few simple questions I asked earlier.
44 months ago: @Micheal,

To add to your point, here's a comment to an analysis made by John Wheeler (http://thisweekinnuclear.com/?p=135#comments) that shows that building more "soft" energy like solar would pollute and consume 12.6x more fossil fuel than using nuclear. This is not counting the backups needed with solar when the sun does not shine.

See the link for all the details.
44 months ago: You guys crack me up. You rely on the "shivering in the dark cave" argument and criticize radiological concerns as fear mongering. You rely on non-approved reactor designs and non-exisitant repocessing and storage facilities and then criticize steadily advancing efficiency and cost effective developments in benign alternative techs as pie in the sky. You say benign alternatives can't supply enough energy when Demark has had wind episodes that produced more than 100% of their national demand and worldwide resource estimates show that either wind OR solar can produce more power than needed. Yes, right now manufacturing does consume fossil fuels but as new techs come on line that pollution is eliminated.
Face it, you want to replace one bad energy production method with another bad choice and are grasping at straws to delay the ultimate benign solution so you can cash in on your legacy tech.
Mike Keller
Mike Keller
Overland Park, KS
44 months ago: Your statement that wind and solar can supply all of Denmark’s energy needs is utter nonsense.

As far as hybrid-nuclear energy is concerned, the technology was only invented a few years ago and it may or may not emerge. From a technical standpoint, there is absolutely no question that it will work. Politically, who knows?

However, there is no question that your vaunted renewable energy, in and of itself, is incapable of meeting all the worlds energy needs. No amount of wishful thinking or glib emotional rhetoric on your part can change that. The inconvenient truth is that the laws of nature, available resources and number of people on the planet completely overwhelm the capabilities of any single source of energy. We need all the technologies and innovation we can muster, with the “kool-aide drinking”, “oxygen wasting” radical fringe drop-kicked over the side.
44 months ago: here's a few cites on the issue but I guess you could have found them yourself if you wanted to do more than just falsely promote your finalcial interests to the exhaustion of critical thinkers-
http://www.metaefficient.com/news/new-record-wind-powers-40-of-spain.html
http://www.newenergy.info/index.php?id=1350
http://www.nrel.gov/wind/international_wind_resources.html
http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2009/09/china-energy-needs-wind/
http://www.nrel.gov/gis/solar.html
http://www.nrel.gov/rredc/
Rod Adams
Rod Adams
Annapolis, MD
44 months ago: @Tom - are you really citing Spain's wind (and solar) program as a success?

http://www.juandemariana.org/pdf/090327-employment-public-aid-renewable.pdf

There is a difference between the studies that you cite and the reality that I experienced while living for months at a time with nuclear fission as my only source of power. I am not talking about running numbers, making projections, including unverifiable assumptions, and producing a study that waves off the difficulty of building transmission lines and storage systems. Like tens of thousands of others, I have lived a completely fission powered existence. Millions live a mostly fission powered existence every day. I do not know of a single person in the world who can claim to have lived a wind and solar powered existence for months at a time.

Fission is an incredible energy source where a guy wearing a backpack can carry as much energy on his back as an oil tanker can carry in its cargo holds. The material required to fill the backpack costs about $2,500, the material required to fill the tanker costs $20 million.

You dream of putting intellectual energy into soft alternatives equivalent to that put into fission and think that will somehow make them competitive. That is a bit like pouring gobs of money into a Shetland pony and thinking it will turn into a supersonic jet. The only difference is that there are more orders of magnitude difference between the energy density of uranium and oil than their is between a Shetland pony (perhaps 6 miles per hour) and a supersonic jet (perhaps 1400 miles per hour).

It is just easier, and will always be better and cheaper, to capture energy from a dense, controllable source than to gather it from a diffuse, weather dependent source.
44 months ago: I guess your way of admitting making a false argument and getting caught is the start of another faulty argument. The debate was whether there were sufficient wind and/or solar resources to supply energy demand. The resource maps show available wind and insolation to supply energy demand many times over and the Danish and Spanish examples show it can be harvested with 1st generation tech.
Your cite attempts to argue opportunity costs of green subsidies but while you do vociferously argue the uncounted external costs of coal, you somehow aren’t rushing out to vacuum up the fallout from Chernobyl, dredge the Columbia River Delta, salvage the hulls at Novaya Zemlya or dig up an burry Hanford, West Valley, Poker Flats and dispersed mine tailings. I hope you don’t do your taxes using the same accounting methods. Yes, I know that’s someone else’s problem and we can expect the same protection and remediation from a core breach or storage leak from your reactors too. Oh, but you can’t legally tie the radiation effects to their commercial reactor source! You may win the court case but lose the war for a sustainable planet.
44 months ago: Nature is taking care of Chernobyl, recycling it right back into forest and wildlife areas. It was a big error caused by the operators, not the power source. We could be faced with similiar damage near ANY power plant in the US, not just th nuclear ones. Yeah, sure, there wouldn't be the radiation and other unseen dangers but you can bet your last Cap and Trade dollar that other types of power have their hidden horrors too. By products that come in the tons, gases that can kill with one whiff, piles and piles of ash that has to be contained (literally dozens of acres of it many, many feet thick at EACH plant).

Yes, Tom, there are dangers in nuclear power. Yes, Rod, it will take decades for Tom's dreams to come to our rescue. Neither of you has the answer TODAY when we need it.

I still put my vote toward fission, why? Because the other power source is already almost out of my financial reach and after C&T goes into effect, I'll be walking and using a converted bicycle to power my house.
44 months ago: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=414073095760658789#
watch this and then blow your "recycling" out your vent.
Rod Adams
Rod Adams
Annapolis, MD
44 months ago: @Tom - are there any real people whose health is currently being harmed by Chernobyl or by whatever might have been released to the other sites that you mention? If there are no health effects today, what makes you so certain that there will be health effects in the future? I will grant that there are isolated places in the world that contain sufficient concentrations of the remnants of commercial nuclear power plant operation to be dangerous. They do not harm people because there are some simple safety precautions taken to keep doses below a level at which there is any measurable risk.

It does not take a priesthood to make this technology safe any more than it takes a priesthood to make air travel safe, to build roads and bridges that enable reasonably safe travel, and to build buildings that reach high into the sky and house people without collapsing.

It just takes some engineering, some reasonable maintenance, some trained people, and adequate applied resources. It even takes a few people - though certainly not everyone involved - who were not "calculus challenged".

@sixholdens - my issue with collecting diffuse flows of weather dependent energy is not that it will "take decades" for the effort to begin making a difference. Humans have known about these flows for millennia. Some very smart people have made huge efforts over time; others have done some experimenting or study and recognized that the effort simply is not worth it when there are easier, cheaper ways to produce the same results.

Finally @Tom - can you tell me how solid corrosion resistant material is going to "leak"? Are you aware of the natural analog at Oklo that demonstrated that the material left over from fission reactions does not migrate very far from its original storage location even if fully exposed to the weather?
44 months ago: 1) Watch the whole 41 min of the video link in my last post
2) For an engineer that taught ethics, you’re as thick as a brick. It’s not that there are not impacts or extreme regulation for other techs; it’s that nukes require that degree of oversight long after their benefit is extracted so people who never received the benefit are burdened with meticulous care of an insidious hazard with few options for mitigation. That enormous time displacement of the burden is unethical and the potentially catastrophic cost is externalized without any possible mechanism of internalization where the company that is ultimately liable would be long gone by the time leak mitigation must be paid for.
3) Concentrated energy is only easier and cheaper if you continue to externalize the impacts such as climate change, acid rain, mercury, particulates, hydrocarbons, SOx, NOx and yes, radiologic effects of reactor and waste transport accidents, sabotage and storage leaks. Thermodynamics does predict that the higher temperatures provide more efficient energy conversion but I’ll take CSP over coal or U235 any day and direct conversion methods, (PV, thermoelectric, piezoelectric), are still a long way from their maximum theoretical efficiencies. In 50 years we’ll be able to coat CSP receivers with cells that directly convert 58% of a broader range of wavelengths and collect the remaining heat with very efficient thermal conducting working fluids for use in highly efficient ORC generators. Our present investment in “concentrated energy” will seem foolish. I know that doesn’t help us now but we have to use as much of the currently relatively benign tech to get us there.

44 months ago: 4) It is widely recognized that moisture and minerals will corrode any possible waste cask and that’s why vitrification of waste was still deemed necessary to further forestall nuclide migration. The reason why the Columbia River is radioactive is because the Ru, Te and H2&3 migrate at the same velocity as the ground water. Other nuclides migrate at different rates in undisturbed sediments and that depends on the chemical state of the waste and the receiving sediments but that all goes out the window if there are other means of direct transport such as water transport through fractures, fissures, solution channels or wind transport from the surface. I talked to Battelle Lab engineers who told me that during the early Hanford days they just took tank trucks full of high level wastes out to the desert and opened the valve while smoking a cigarette!
44 months ago: Tom, I watched the entire video. They hinted that Chernobyl could have caused some of the deformities but they did not attribute all of them to it. I don't doubt that there are many direct links to this as the root cause BUT one stupid set of circumstances caused this accident. It wasn't deliberate, it was preventable and those who caused it should never see the light of day.

Should I dig up coal fired plant disasters? How about NG plant explosions? Pipeline explosions? Or should I just look for steam line ruptures in NYC? How about all the cancers caused by illegal dumping by power plants? Are you going to tell me that it never happened? Any industry will have its horror stories, even down to the lowly sweat shops in NYC (dozens burned to death in a fire). Sure Chernobyl’s effects are long lasting, but remember one thing, a lot of these people refused to leave their homes, some still live in sight of the plant and there are two reactors still in operation generating power for the citizens.

I would love to see a wind generator above every home, solar panels on all the roof tops, hybrid generators in each neighborhood, providing electricity and excess heat for home heating uses, greenhouses and all the advantages we would have from this sort of power. But for the trillions of dollars required to implement this world you envision, there is no source. No one wants to fund this on a large scale, the scale you are talking about. Sure nuclear has its drawbacks, but you can bet there are people willing to fund this type of energy over what you propose. Why? Because what you propose removes a lot of their profit downstream from the initial purchase, that and there just isn’t any way to build what you want in the time frame we are working in (10 - 20 years).

If you have the money and the equipment, I have 90 acres of woods and fields that could use a money making investment and there is another 100 or so right next to it that is also family land.
44 months ago: God, this is like teaching kindergarten. We’re supposed to learn from our mistakes not perpetuate them. Why expand a flawed nuclear technology to replace a flawed fossil fuel tech. Clearly both coal and nukes have external costs that the energy economy doesn’t consider so your bit@h about the excessive cost of renewables in meaningless unless and until you can fully incorporate the costs of radiological security into the price of nukes. Go clean up the nuclides from 1/3 of Europe, add the cost of health effects and evacuated land, multiply that by 3 to account for waste leaks over 460,000 years, divide it by the kwh produced by the exploded reactor and then get back to me about how renewables are too expensive.
44 months ago: And don't bother picking the equation apart, I know it's an over simplification provided for dramatic effect. The point is simply the failure of accounting of nukes' externalities that warrant pursuit of more expensive renewables to combat global warming and other fossil fuel effects until we can develop more cost-effective tech.
44 months ago: Yes Tom, we are all just uneducated children. Failing to learn the error of our ways and you are the guru of knowledge and solutions.

Care to pay my electricity bill, its coal and NG produced. Only cooling about 600sq ft and the bill is over $175 a month, last one was $220. There is a nuclear plant in the state but our power doesn't come from it, it all goes to keep the rich people's electric bills down in the NW part of the state.

You have provided a lot of good information and I am thankful for it. Even though you refuse to acknowledge the facts and repeatedly try to treat others like children who won’t listen, your information is well received, just untimely as the world is not ready to expend its last nickel to implement your plan.

Nuclear has drawback, fossil fuels have drawbacks, renewable energy has drawbacks, and they all have pluses too. Which energy source can we exploit right now and afford to buy the power that comes from it? Which will cause more harm than good? Your perspective on what is harm is going to determine that answer. Potential harm and actual harm are very real in each scenario. Who will determine which wins? Not you or I, or Rod, or any other who has posted to this forum, we are just users as far as the real money men are concerned, just contributors to their wealth.

Keep on posting, we are still listening.
44 months ago: sorry for the insult but I said the same thing 10 different ways with nothing but evasive retorts. The only reason you still percieve nukes as relatively cheap is becuse you don't have to suffer the virtually perpetual adverse radiological impacts that are externalized just like your current power provider isn't paying for the eventual drowning of Florida and Bangladesh. People of forethought must process this new information and apply it in active adaptive management of our energy policy. This necessitates socialistic measures like cap and trade or GHG/radiological taxes to correct the blatant defects in our market structure that doesn't capture these externalities. Otherwise we'll always be operating in a crisis reactive mode to the next set of catastrophic impacts.
44 months ago: Tom, I don't buy the man made global warming scare tactics. Florida and Bangladesh can look at their geological history and figure out that they built on poor ground. Even where I live was once ocean or very near it and I'm at 250ft above sea level.

Your preferred fixes will not cure global warming. It is a natural cycle and there is nothing we can do to stop or change it. In fact, there are fears that stuffing carbon into the ground via wells are just making time bombs that will go off and cause untold damage by releasing massive amounts of stored gases all at one time. Talk about legacy problems! Your fear of nuclear waste pales in comparison with fossil fuel waste fears.
44 months ago: What, is your brain hanging out of the back of your skull too? Why don't you just take the middleman out of the equation and burn babies for fuel?
44 months ago: I must apologize to all the kindergarten kids. Anyone who could view Chernobyl Heart and still support the creation of such sorrow for millennia has a depraved personality only comparable to Josef Mengele.
44 months ago: Tom, I resent that. You have obviously NOT been exposed to much of real life if you consider that tame video a representation of reality.
44 months ago: @six Tom's rants aren't reality-based. In fact, Tom has done an excellent job at sidetracking the discussion away from reality. Equating Chernobyl with a more modern reactor (i.e., one that was built with at least 1960's technology) is like comparing the Hindenburg with the Goodyear blimp. No one builds RBMK reactors. Educated anti-nukes know this. But some people haven't passed anti-nuke Kindergarten.

And besides this side-show, Tom refuses to answer questions that challenge his fear-mongering claims regarding expense and health effects of nuclear power. But I guess that’s the point of the side-show.

Why don’t nuclear workers themselves suffer any ill-effects?

Why are the French not living in poverty for deriving 80% of their electricity from nuclear? Why isn’t France bankrupt?

Why does France have the longest life expectancy, lowest cancer rates, and lowest infant mortality in Europe?

Why are the Germans (who are huge proponents of wind power) reversing their phase-out of nuclear? They’re practically at ground zero from Chernobyl? What? Are they a bunch of Kindergarteners too?

Will he answer this time? Probably not...
44 months ago: @Michael, I would add to the list of question/remarks for our good friend Tom:

1. The beneficial effect of nuclear radiation; hormesis
http://tinyurl.com/nxg2ug

2. The fact that there is nearly 8000 radioactive events that take place in our bodies every second.
http://www.rerowland.com/BodyActivity.htm

3. The fact that burning coal and putting the "waste" in the air, puts a lot of radioactivity in the atmosphere...
http://tinyurl.com/p6p848

I could add more, but I would simply point people who want to learn more to this excellent book:
http://www.terrestrialenergy.org/
44 months ago: MS, Yeah, I realized he is not working with a full deck when it comes to the reality of current events. Many who are passionate in their beliefs are like that, they grasp a part of the truth and a lot of the half-truths and turn it in to a mess of un-truths. I just have to give credit for the information that is useful and actually has value.

I'm pretty sure that if he does answer, he will fall back on the long term half-lifes of some isotopes and ignore the possibilities (probability) that those "waste" items will be reused in industry in ways that will elimanate their harmful effects and increase their value.
44 months ago: One more time for the Mengele fan club. Your observations limited to the short time and space of the current industry in France is like lighting the fuse on a stick of dynamite and half way down the fuse saying "look it just sparkles". How can you reliably assume that the industry will not produce those same Chernobyl Heart effects over the hundreds of thousands of years of nuclide irradiation when none of the nuclear societies have yet to develop a sound method of long term disposal? Why do you assume that minimum wage security will prevent determined suicidal zealots from sabotaging plants or waste transport? Why do you assume that fallible engineers will always produce infallible reactor designs? Why do you assume that operating companies or even government oversight will always exist when worldwide depressions bankrupt societies en masse?
44 months ago: See? He can't answer the questions. Just wild, speculative conjecture - which by the way is the thing he faults *US* for.
44 months ago: Answers to YOUR questions (since you repeatedly ignore mine):

Q1: Your assumption is incorrect. It is not the goal of the nuclear industry to *dispose* of waste but to close the fuel cycle by recycling, which diminishes the amount of material while creating resources for new fuel.

Q2: We cannot eliminate suicidal zealots. Instead, engineers have produced containers that suicidal-zealot resistant. Even a hardened military jet cannot penetrate a reactor containment vessel. Even a train wreck cannot penetrate a fuel cask.

Q3: I never assume that reactor designs are infallible. That's what redundant active and passive safety systems are for. These systems make it statistically improbable enough for me to live next to and work at a nuclear reactor.

Q4: I don't assume that either. That's why I think we should go with the technology that provides the most benefit with the least amount of cost, waste, and environmental damage. I happen to think nuclear fulfills this need nicely.
44 months ago: Just becasue you didn't get the answer you wanted to your irrelevant questions doesn't mean the point hasn't been made.
The debate is over sustainable tech for energy generation and you insist upon limiting the debate to your time frame and understanding of societial/technological survivability/accountability. You can argue the success or efficiency of one program or tech but when confronted with long term accumulative effects and societal stability you have not, and could not debate the potential for a catastrophic impact of your technology choice that necessarily depends upon an unprecedented standard of indefinite infallible oversight and control. That's the fatal flaw in your reasoning.
44 months ago: fission always produces fragments in quantities that must be disposed and of you are suggesting that separating transuranics from existing waste is costless, guess again. That cost alone would price nuke power right out of the market.
Shaped charges in RPGs and IEDs can easily penetrate a foot of steel so casks wouldn't stand a chance. Most core containment structures were only designed to resist a 707 so bigger jets would penetrate but there's more rads in storage pools now and they are not equally shielded. Every plant security drill has had simulated penetration so deliberate release FROM THE CONTROL ROOM is to be assumed.
Your redundant safey systems were all taken out at once by one candle at Browns Ferry because they routed all the cables through one chase.
44 months ago: Is it me or he compared us to a Nazi killer doctor... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josef_Mengele

It is funny saying the debate is over... it makes me think of Al Gore, the god of "renewable" energy... for a profit of course.

The more I read from Tom the more I laugh. Thanks for the entertainment.

Fear master, I bow to you ;-)
44 months ago: That may be the fatal flaw *as you see it*. As I see it, your fatal flaw is that you believe we can convert from a 90+% fossil fuel/nuclear society to a 100% renewable society in an affordable and reliable way in a short time frame. As I see it, your plan will cause a lot more disruption and hardship than mine, to say the least.

You throw out complaints of health and economic problems with nuclear power and then call my questions irrelevant? The nerve.

The point has been made, and the longer you ignore my questions, the more you drive my point home. So thank you.
44 months ago: Arise oh defeated one and seek meaningfull employment in the renewable energy industry.
44 months ago: Hah! :) And I thought you didn't have a sense of humor...
44 months ago: Tom, Do you believe in man made global warming? Care to speculate on what industry most of the CO2 has been contributed too.....

Talk about your long term negative effects, try and clean that one up with a storage cask.

I personally do not believe in MMGW. Climate change, yes, but we aren't the root cause.
44 months ago: Stop calling the kettle black. You don't get any points comparing nukes to coal as the debate is impacts/costs of renewables compared to nukes and there's no comparison given long term horrific impacts of nukes and when costs of waste disposal, insurance and security are internalized for nukes, there's no advantage for nukes at all.
Rod Adams
Rod Adams
Annapolis, MD
44 months ago: @Tom - There is no source of reliable power other than either fission or combustion. If you take fission off of the list of choices, you are - by definition - choosing to bet on combustion. If you do not want to be labeled as pro-coal by people who can count, you will have do some navel gazing about your motives for fighting fission.

Your alternatives have been known for millennia and considered to be completely inadequate by many people who were not "calculus challenged". In fact, they have been found to be inadequate by a number of people who understand the laws of thermodynamics, physics, economics and chemistry.

You have every right to bet your future on the boutique energy sources that you favor. You do not have the right to bet my future or that of my children and grandchildren on them.

You think it is unethical to ignore the potential effects of our actions in a period of time that we have no right to expect that we can predict - that period thousands of years into the future. I believe it is unethical to forgo the widespread use of a power source that can make existing and near future lives better and remove the risk of early deaths by water borne illness, malnutrition and other deaths that are directly attributable to lack of reliable power that affect millions every year.

The choice is pretty clear - you will not change my mind and I will not change yours. The lurkers who have lasted this long on the thread can decide for themselves.
44 months ago: So on your planet there is no moving water, geothermal heat sources, or oceans with thermal gradients? There are no means to build HVDC or Superconductor transmission systems to distribute load, no pumped water or air storage facilities, no NaS, Redux flow, air zinc or lithium batteries, no molten salt thermal storage, infact no means of energy distribution or storage at all?
44 months ago: There's apparently no means to convert carbon neutral biomass to power either. I pity the planet without anaerobic digesters, methane recovery from landfills, biomass gasification, Fisher-Tropisch processes or oil extraction from algae. Your planet has such few choices I'd worry about it's sustainability and I would suggest finding a planet like mine but please don't come here as you'd likely threaten our survival too.
44 months ago: Tom, I think Rod was just over looking natural sources, especially geothermal and wave action and a few others that are not readily available in ALL areas.

I'd love to have a geothermal spring on my property, would exploit it to the max.
Rod Adams
Rod Adams
Annapolis, MD
44 months ago: @Tom - my world has all of the well known energy flows that you mention. In fact, I have used most of them at various times. I even took several courses at a graduate level with one of the experts in the field of alternative energy and did lots of homework assignments and design projects. NONE of them could solve the basic problem of supplying reliable, affordable energy wherever people were and whenever they wanted it.

Fission can. Combustion can. Humans have known about the flows that you mention for thousands of years. They have been using fossil fuel combustion for hundreds of years. We discovered fission when my mom was 9 years old and when my good friend Ted Rockwell was already an adult. Simple logic tells me which one has more developmental potential.

I used to use tubes and magnetic amplifiers but would not waste my time with them if I wanted to solve a challenging computational or control system problem. Why would I waste my time trying to use natural energy flows that have been proven to be inadequate and require enormous amounts of overbuilding of physical infrastructure that will be idle 70-80% of the time?
44 months ago: uh, because you really do have a smidgen of ethics and the thought of causing millions of birth defects and cancers with your tech prohibited its pursuit?
44 months ago: Maybe you have no ethics but can still see that the ecomomics of nukes are unsound once the externalities are incorporated into the price of its energy?
44 months ago: How about a nationalistic allegiance that prohibits you from providing easy targets to terrorists that could cripple the national economy, condemn vast areas of real estate and cause casualties far worse than 9/11?
44 months ago: Rod, You know that I agree with you and 99 % of what you bring to the discussion. I have spent too much time keeping up with this discussion. If you and tom would only spending half of the time that you two have spent here on spreading the good news that I have been offering you would have prevented millions of tons of CO2 and H2S from being released to the enviroment simply by sharring the news of one of the greatest discovery in chemistry. If you two are serious about Environmental issues you would be checking out www.swapsol.com. They have the first CO2/H2S solution that actually consumes CO2 and H2S turning waste into products. They have many NEW Solutions!

Please take a break and just review one webpage on the practicle applications. http://www.swapsol.com/images/docs/practical-applications.pdf This is news before it is news that is happening right now. Not years into the future!

This start up company has much to offer in the way of Environmental solution. They have a very impressive Board of Directors and independant confirmations from world wide Entities.
Rod Adams
Rod Adams
Annapolis, MD
44 months ago: @jon0052 - I have read many of the documents on the swapsol site. Though the technology is interesting, all it really does is make a bit more gas accessible to the market by eliminating contaminants. The resulting gas is just more methane which will burn just as cleanly as all methane that is in the market. It is pretty clean compared to other hydrocarbons, but it is still a major source of CO2 emissions and can be a source of NOx as well. It is still subject to rather significant market price fluctuations and requires a pipeline distribution system that makes it unsuitable for remote applications or applications in places where there is no pipeline.

One of my focus areas is ship propulsion, an application for which nuclear is well proven but one where gas of any kind is wildly impractical. Another is providing reliable electricity in areas that need power but are remote from the grid - which includes the pipeline distribution system.

Just curious - do you have any relationship with swapsol? That is not a question designed to condemn, just a request for openness. As I have said many times I have strong vested interest in developing new nuclear power systems.

Rod Adams
Publisher, Atomic Insights
Host and producer, The Atomic Show Podcast
Founder, Adams Atomic Engines, Inc.
44 months ago: Rod you could have a more enlighten opinion. Try to focus more on all of the possibilities that Swapsol processes offer. Like creating a market for carbon dioxide. Carbon dioxide could be sold to oil refineries to be consumed by using the SWAP processes to reduce the waste sulfur. Two birds with stone? A 97% reduction over existing cost of sulfur reduction is quite a feat. And to do so while improving the Environment! This is just for starters, there are many more solutions to be found at Swapsol.com. To my knowledge this is the first Environmental solution that could save money, even make a profit while cleaning our planets atmosphere. Some say incalculable profits.

According to most reported data on world wide CO2 emissions mankind is responsible for over 27 billion metric tons annually. Add to that tons of waste Sulfur and you have a lot of waste product released into our environment. Waste that could be converted to valuable products and while improving the Environment.

I could go on longer than you with your debate on this blog, why should I when anyone can get the news right from the source at www.swapsol.com.

My answer to your question as to my connection to Swapsol is the same each time that I am asked, I am among the first to invest.

Just one question for you. If you could help keep billions of tons of carbon dioxide and hazardous Sulfer from being released into the Environment simply by spreading the news of the Swapsol discoveries, would you help spread the word?

Who knows some of the new tax revenues generated by Swapsol technologies just might go for new nuclear power plants!

Oh Yeah, Did I mention the boost to the World Economies?
Rod Adams
Rod Adams
Annapolis, MD
44 months ago: @jon0052 - Glad you are so excited. However, the chemical equation provides the limits to your dreams - you will only be able to consume half as many moles of CO2 as there are moles of H2S to get rid of. The vast majority of the billions of tons of CO2 will still have no market.

I simply prefer a technology that is 2-3 million times as energy dense as oil and releases no waste gases at all. Sorry - I am just a one trick pony who believes there really is a silvery (the color of uranium metal) bullet when it comes to the best energy solution.

To each their own. Good luck with your investment.
44 months ago: Thanks Rod. You are right about the limits, Have you considered the naturel sources of H2S? Say Sour gas, sour Crude oil, Coal, Tar Sands & the Black Sea to name a few?

Ever see any estimates of what one Tar Sands Exec says it will cost his company just to transport Carbon Dioxide from his location? Try $120/ton.

Rod, there could be enough new tax revenues from just one of the new processes to fund all of the new power generation needed to meet our needs. Be it Nuclear , Solar or Fossil.

Think about it, the big boys of all industries will be the ones the Lion's share of the new wealth. What with all of the cost savings and new profit sources generated within their industries. Have you ever known money to turn their noses up to an opportunity to make more money?

This country was built on cheap energy. We are entering a new erra of cheap energy. Just look at Natural gas prices today! Now imagine the second most plentiful source of Fossil energy (coal) being turned into methane cheaper than you can get it from the ground. Add to that the biggest source of of fossil energy (methane hydrates), and all of the other sources. Now imagine that all souces could be used to generate power without emissions of any kind. Not possible you say? Think again! By using new O2 technologies the flue gases would be almost pure CO2. Cheaper to captured and be recycled in the new Swapsol processes. Starting to get the picture?

I am proud to have worked in Nuclear Generation and Nuclear will be a part of the energy mix, but it will never be the sole source of our energy needs. The Stenger WAsas SOLutions are avalable now and IMHO can be used to make real changes quicker and more economical than any other solution available.

I am glad we have professionals like you in Nuclear, Thank you again.