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Change Part Two - Thermal Power Plants

Posted 29 months ago|201 comments|2,533 views
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Altruist
Eugene, OR
Most of the power generated in the world today comes from thermal plants. These are very easy to understand. There is a heat source (Coal, Oil, Natural Gas, Nuclear, Concentrated Solar) that heats up water in a boiler to produce steam. The steam runs a turbine which generates electricity, then the steam is cooled (condensed) to turn it back to water and returned to the boiler. This is called a Rankine cycle, just think of putting a pinwheel in front of a teapot.

Utility Power Planners have to balance many different considerations when planning for future power supplies. Conservation is by far the most cost effective investment to to keep from having to purchase new generating capacity, (creating “Negawatts”). According to the New York State Energy Research and Development Agency, an investment of $1 million in energy efficiency measures (with a ten-year life span) can translate to an energy cost savings of approximately $3 million, the creation of 58 job-years, and emissions avoidance of approximately 100 tons of sulfur dioxide, 70 tons of nitrogen oxides, and 45,000 tons of carbon dioxide.

But eventually utilities have to think about building new generating capacity. Most power plants in the Midwest and East, use coal as a fuel because it is the cheapest, but it is very dirty. Natural Gas costs about twice as much but has half the pollutants. Oil costs about twice what natural gas costs, and the pollution is about midway between coal and natural gas. Proponents of Nuclear power claim that nuclear fuel is cheaper * and has no CO2 emissions, however the uranium processing is very energy intensive and the power for processing it does create CO2. Another thing to consider with nuclear is that once it starts operating, it generates enormous quantities of radioactive nuclear waste and there is still no safe place to isolate it for at least a quarter of a million years. Now the spent fuel is stored in ponds by the plants where it is vulnerable to terrorist attack. After the government fuel subsidies are considered, Nuclear fuel costs are about equivalent to natural gas. Solar power is of course free and has no pollutants.

The Capital costs are the costs of building a plant. Based on the U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA), http://www.jcmiras.net/surge/p130.htm
Solar plants are the most expensive of the thermal plants costing $3149/kW, Advanced Nuclear costs $2081/kW, Coal fired plants with a scrubber costs $1290/kW, Advanced Gas/Oil combined cycle costs $594/Kw and Advanced open cycle gas turbines are the cheapest to build at $398/kW and they are also the quickest to construct.

Our power planners have to consider the money they have in their budget for new plants, siting of the plant, the size of the plant needed, the fuel types available, the pollution generated, and the costs of the fuel. Renewable energy is attractive because there is little or no pollution, the “fuel” is free, and there are tax credits available. The down side of solar and wind power is, the power generated is intermittent. It only works when the sun is shining or the wind is blowing.

Most utilities have a limited budget so building a very large expensive Nuclear Plant, would be like putting all of your eggs in one basket. Siting is also a problem for large plants. Nuclear plants occasionally release small amounts of radioactivity into the air and water. No one wants to be near a Nuclear plant or a coal plant, and there is feirce public opposition. For this reason most utilities opt for the smaller, simpler, cleaner, and inexpensive, natural gas plants.

The efficiencies of most steam plants is about 35% -40% The efficiency of a combined cycle gas turbine can be double that, because after the combustion gases run through the gas turbine, they are then run through a boiler generating steam, which goes through a steam generator. We get twice the power for the same amount of fuel without any additional pollution. The efficiency of the plant can be further increased by cogeneration. The steam after it comes through the steam turbine can be sold to buildings for heat, or to factories to help in the manufacturing processes.

These improvements make the use of natural gas one of the most cost effective options available. Now there are a couple of technological developments that make this option even more attractive.

A hybrid solar thermal, and natural gas plant, provides the free fuel of the solar plant with the high capacity factor of the gas turbine, meaning that it can generate power all of the time. During the days when the sun is shining, the gas turbine can be shut down and a mirror array would concentrate the sun to boil water to run the steam turbine. At night, or if it gets overcast, the gas turbine can generate power. See: http://climateprogress.org/2009/08/18/hybrid-csp-concentrated-solar-natural-gas-power-plants-provide-power/

The maximum power need is during the daylight hours so if this plant was used and the gas turbine only turned on when needed 70% of the power could come from the sun. The cost of the combined plant would be considerably lower than the cost of two separate plants (a solar plant with a natural gas plant for peak power), because they share the same steam turbine in the same site.

The other new development that will bring power costs down, are Sterling cycle power plants. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stirling_engine A sterling engine is a closed cycle external heat source engine. There are now efficient cost effective sterling solar power plants that are twice as efficient as other solar power systems. See the introductory video.

The really exciting thing about sterling power, is that it can be used for low temperature heat sources that can be found free in many places. It can for example, take the place of cooling towers (which are now used in almost all thermal plants). Instead of just pumping that excess heat into the atmosphere or into a river or stream, that energy can now be used to generate electricity. Using the Sterling engine to recover wasted heat from existing power plants, you can nearly double the power output, without using any additional fuel or creating any additional pollutants!
See:See: http://www.sterlingsolar.com/

Now imagine our super efficient, combined cycle, natural gas solar hybrid, power plant, I talked about above. If we use the Sterling engine to condense the output from the steam turbine we could generate even more energy. In this plant you would have four separate thermodynamic cycles, (five with cogeneration!) so you could produce up to four times the amount of power from the same amount of natural gas with no additional pollutants!

Because the Sterling Engine runs on temperature differentials it is also ideal for geothermal uses, and for Ocean Thermal Energy Conversion (OTEC), there is sufficient temperature differential between the cool water from the bottom of the ocean and the warmer water on the surface to run the engine. OTEC would pump the bottom water up for the cooling cycle and use the surface for the warm side, to power the Sterling Engine. Because the water at the bottom of the ocean is full of nutrients, and surface water in the center of the ocean is generally lacking nutrients, it might be paired with fish and/or algae farms to further bring costs down.


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Chris D
Chris D
Seattle, WA
29 months ago: Nice post. I'm a big fan of Sterling engines.
29 months ago: Dang! My brain is boiling! can I vent some of that steam?

Since your big on CO2 footprints to produce using coal, NG and petrol. While making the statement that the actual use of some might increase the carbon footprint with hidden emmissions.

Here is the question.

Solar? How much energy does it take to produce a solar panel? What are the carbon outputs?

Hy-breds. How much energy does it take to produce a Hy-Bred? What are the carbon outputs? What are the future environmental hazards from disposal of said Hy-bred?

Just wondering.
22 months ago: There are two issues with energy production that define whether they are genuine energy sources and have a low carbon footprint.
These are:


1. Energy ratio. This is the amount of energy used to produce, maintain and decomission and energy plant, against the total amount of energy produced by the plant.
So in reality the amount of energy used to produce a solar thermal plant, wind turbine or coal fired power station isn't an indicator of whether it is a good idea or not. What is valid is the energy ratio.

2. A similar issue applies to carbon footprints of an energy production system. With electricity it is common now to refer to carbon footprints as grammes of CO2 per kiloWatt hour (gCO2/kWh). Again this basically means that the amount of carbon input at the production stage isn't a major issue. What is more important is the ratio of that carbon to the energy produced by the system during its complete life cycle. This then gives an indication of its impact on climate change. With renewables, the largest chunk of their carbon footprint is created at production, during maintenance, decomissioning etc.
With coal, carbon footprints are derived of building the plant, using coal as a fuel, maintenance, decomissioning etc.
Altruist
Altruist
Eugene, OR
29 months ago: I will address solar in Part 3. In he meantime I have a question for the conservatives in the group. McCain advocates building 100 new Nuclear plants. Cost estimates of 100 plants is $700 billion. The government would have to guarantee all of those loans and the default rate is 50%. They would also have to be subsidized by the government.
Why is it that you guys are against big government but you are OK with giving $350 billion of my money to the nuclear power industry? And for this investment we wouldn't get any power for 10 years, by which time nuclear power will be made obsolete by new renewable technology, and we would have to foot the bill for getting rid of all of the waste. Talk about big government wasting money!
29 months ago: What are the subsidies for wind, thermal, solar and water energy developement?

Please, I can take it as long as it is level. Otherwise it looks like your pushing you industry.
29 months ago: I never got an answer on why a Hybrid costs more than a combustion that is three time the size of the Hybrid. Is it the cost to produce the Hybrid? Why is the cost of something 1/3rd the size more? Does it use more engery to produce? What do we do with the Hybrid waste in a few years? What is the cost of a Hybrid replacement battery? What is the disposal fee for a Hybrid battery? What do we have to do to get an answer?
Altruist
Altruist
Eugene, OR
29 months ago: We will have to wait and see what the Senate passes as an energy bill to see what subsidies will be. Existing subsidies will expire in 2010 I believe. Not sure how much for what use.
Hybrid vehicles are a totally different species than hybrid solar natural gas power plant. My understanding of the hybrid car is that the battery pack, the electric drive train and the sophisticated control system adds about 20% to the vehicle price. The Prius hybrid is geared toward fuel efficiency, while most American hybrids are geared toward power, so the fuel savings in the Prius are greater and thus the pay back period for the extra cost will be shorter. Don't know about batteries, but all should be recycled.
The reason a solar thermal plant is so expensive is that it has thousands of mirrors, each with their own tracking mechanism in addition to the boiler turbine etc. These high initial capital costs can be amortized over time because after start up the energy is essentially free.
29 months ago: See there...nobody knows...we might be creating a new eco negative system...
Rod Adams
Rod Adams
Annapolis, MD
29 months ago: There is no simple comparison between the price of natural gas and the price of coal; natural gas prices have varied from as low as $2.90 per million BTU to sharp peaks exceeding $20.00 per million BTU during the past three years. Coal prices have been relatively steady at between $1.50 and $3.00 per million BTU during the same period. (Ref - bloomberg.com commodity prices)

There are no government fuel subsidies for nuclear fuel; in contrast the government adds specific fees to the fuel like the 1 mill per kilowatt hour fee to pay the costs of long term storage.

According to average cost statistics compiled by the Nuclear Energy Institute, the all in cost of commercial nuclear fuel in 2008 was just 49 cents per million BTU. That is about 1/6th of the cost for even the cheapest natural gas over the past three years and it is 1/40th as much as the peak cost.

http://www.nei.org/resourcesandstats/nuclear_statistics/costs/

That cost includes the purchase price of all of the energy that is invested into the mining, refining and manufacturing process; it is quite illogical to claim that making uranium dioxide fuel is "very" energy intensive. Its CO2 emissions per kilowatt hour are almost identical to wind and about 1/3 to 1/2 of solar depending on the technologies chosen.

http://gabe.web.psi.ch/projects/externe_pol/index.html

Rod Adams
Publisher, Atomic Insights
Host and producer, The Atomic Show Podcast
29 months ago: After scouring the Sterling website, I must ask: where's the supply of condenser cooling water comming from?; what working fluid are they using? Most ORC generators are using HFCs that are potent GHGs but GE is using cyclopentane that has negligible GHG effect.
The concept of additional bottoming cycles on power plants is a good one but primary point of wasted heat is in the steam condensers that are not designed to use ORC working fluids to condense steam. The only other point of waste heat capture is in the cooling towers and that process is very inefficient and not cost effective to date. Get the major steam generator manufactures to develop a condenser using cyclopentane and you've got a winner.
29 months ago: Also remember the Sterling ORC cycle at these low temperatures are only 5.4% efficient requiring huge heat source and cooling water flows to produce very little power and the parasitic pumping energy for these flows are not included in their calculations. That's not to say that they shouldn't be added to the generation mix, it's just that the buyer must be aware of all costs.
29 months ago: BTW the associated video is of a Stirling solar dish not a Sterling ORC generator.
Mike Keller
Mike Keller
Overland Park, KS
29 months ago: Few observations:
On nuclear energy. "…enormous quantities of nuclear waste…" Relative to what? A single coal plant will produce more waste in a year than the entire fleet of nuclear plants for the last twenty years.

A combined-cycle plant can not be shut done while the solar arrays are in operation. Google "Integrated Solar Combined Cycle System (ISCCS)" to see how the plants actually operate; basically the solar energy heats steam. Solar provides maybe 12% of plant's output.

There are solar thermal plants that boil water, but they do not employ gas turbines.

Sterling plants are extremely expensive relative to more conventional solar approaches -- see National Energy Test Lab site (NETL) for details. Applications that use low-grade heat inevitably require large numbers of devices. That is why they end up costing a lot of money. Available energy is basically a difference in temperature.

If you folks are interested in an ultimate “hybrid” power plant, see www.hybridpwr.com
29 months ago: Mike Keller, you beat me to the "nuclear waste" quantity item. If it was such a "huge" amount, we would already be overrun with it, as it is, it is usually stored on site because there are too many opponents to the Yucca Mountain site. There are lots of different types of waste generated at each type of plant, actual neuclear stuff is small in quantity.

www.hybridpwr.com, that's a lot of compressors and turbines to run one generator, guess I better review other methods too.

I would like to see some small, solar steam systems that an individual could afford. I have plenty of sun and land, just no money to buy a million dollar unit.
29 months ago: Altruist, good post, keep the info coming!
29 months ago: Yucca Mt. won't be licensed because it's a volcano and DOE can't insure it's integrity for the ½ million years needed to isolate plutonium containing waste.
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
29 months ago: ...Solar power is of course free and has no pollutants...

Sure it is if you don't count the production of the materials used to produce Solar panels. It's neither free nor non-polluting.

Solar Energy Firms Leave Waste Behind in China

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/03/08/AR2008030802595.html?sub=AR
Altruist
Altruist
Eugene, OR
29 months ago: I am glad to see comments from people that have experience in the industry, since I have very little, however I am skeptical of nuclear industry claims. It is true that nuclear fuels do not receive direct subsidies, and fuel costs are supposed to account for all costs in the cycle including disposal and decommissioning, however those costs are thought to be much lower than the actual costs will be. The US has taken responsibility for delays in completion of Yucca Flats and pays the nuclear industry for those delays, the caps on insurance are too low, and the federal government has to back up all construction loans. All of these could be construed as federal subsidies. See: http://www.globalsubsidies.org/en/subsidy-watch/commentary/gambling-nuclear-power-how-public-money-fuels-industry
Good questions Tom and Mike. I can only say that the new stuff coming from the sterling industry claims to be bringing costs and complexity down so it will soon be competitive if not now. Keep reading and researching and lets see if they can. I would also like to see miniaturization so these things are practical for homeowners.
Mike Keller
Mike Keller
Overland Park, KS
29 months ago: I think you'll find the problem with nuclear power is essentially financial. The +$6 billion cost for a typical new nuclear plant is pretty much of a "you bet your company" proposition.

There is a push in the nuclear industry for smaller units that are more "digestible" from a financial standpoint. However, I'm not so sure how competitive the units will ultimately turn out to be as the economies of scale are ostensibly no longer in play.

I believe the idea is to mass produce the small nuclear units and that's how the cost is lowered. However, if your plant is small, the profit is normally small as well - might not be a great investment.

If we go back in history (say 1950’s), you’ll find power stations were not very large and tended to be built in multiple unit groups. However, technology and “economies of scale” produced much more efficient and larger stations.

As long as we have semi-reasonably priced natural gas, the low cost (to build) combustion turbine (combined-cycle power plant) will crush any and all other technologies.
Rod Adams
Rod Adams
Annapolis, MD
29 months ago: @Altruist - Skepticism should be accompanied by a search for facts and perhaps an investigation of motives. It should also be applied with some amount of equity to competing industry claims.

The "nuclear industry" is not the only industry motivated to make claims in order to make a profit. Coal, oil and natural gas suppliers also have a motive to continue selling their wares and make a profit; that activity is threatened by introducing an abundant, low cost competitor into the heat supply business. The energy industry is really a "heat" industry where nearly every fuel source is converted into heat. Sometimes it is the heat itself that is the desired product, other times the heat gets converted into motive force or further refined into electricity.

Competitors to nuclear energy have plenty of power and wealth and have done a great job spreading FUD (fear, uncertainty and doubt) about its value. Some fossil fuel interests have given nuclear energy a handicapping bear hug; investing in the technology and then starving their nuclear divisions of funds or pushing them into building only one size of plants to limit their market expansion.

For example - the first and most proven value of using nuclear fission is to replace oil on board ships. However, there are only a few commercial nuclear powered ships on the ocean due to a focus by the industry on trying to compete against coal on land. Kind of silly since oil powered base load plants - which describes all large ship engines - are extremely expensive to operate.

BTW - I never worked in the nuclear industry. I gained my knowledge of the technology as a submarine engineer officer and have spent the past 15 plus years refining that knowledge.

Rod Adams
Publisher, Atomic Insights
Founder, Adams Atomic Engines, Inc.
Rod Adams
Rod Adams
Annapolis, MD
29 months ago: @Mike Keller - You contradict yourself. Power plants that use combustion turbines are generally made up of several units, each one of which is far smaller than most steam turbines. The very largest combustion turbines are on the order of 200 MWe, but most are far smaller.

Because of their rather simple designs and the economy of unit volume in producing combustion turbines for uses like aircraft and ship propulsion - which are not identical to power units but have a number of common parts - the machine costs are quite a bit lower than they are for very large steam plants that have traditionally been a part of nuclear or coal stations. Other factors in that cost include simplification and removal of many high pressure piping components that are exposed to corrosive fluids like supercritical steam.

Combustion turbines burning natural gas, however, are not very economical sources of most of the power that gets consumed. Even at $3.00 per million BTU, the fuel cost for a very efficient CCGT more than 2 cents per kilowatt-hour, 10% higher than the TOTAL production cost for a nuke, and that is without any attempt by the gas turbine to capture and store its deadly waste products.

I am a big advocate of smaller atomic plants - especially those that use the same kind of machinery as found in combustion turbine plants. Combine the low heat cost of uranium with the low machinery cost of Brayton cycle gas turbines and you have a game changing technology. However, even moderate sized modular plants using steam have a high probability of lower costs per unit capacity by getting rid of some of the schedule and financing risk associated with very large plants and by achieving higher unit volumes and factory production.
Mike Keller
Mike Keller
Overland Park, KS
29 months ago: The nearly fatal flaw with nuclear power is the cost to build them -- paying off the debt makes new plants not competitive in today's power market. The fuel is, however, cheap, being roughly $1/mmBTU. Gas today is about $4/mmBTU, although it was up to around $12/mmBTU last summer. On a construction basis, nuclear is somewhere north of $5000/kW to build versus a combined cycle plant at around $900/kW. Since fuel costs are generally a pass thru, the least risky investment is a combined-cycle plant by a significant margin.

Early combustion turbines were small and not terribly efficient. The combustion turbine has, in fact, become bigger and more efficient over time (economies of scale). "G" and "H" class machines are now pushing 260 mW with efficiencies of nearly 40%. Not that long ago, 3x1 plants (3 combustion turbines, 1 steam turbine) would produce around 500 mW. Today, a 2x1 configuration will produce over 700 mW.

Combined-cycle power plant’s have efficiencies pushing 60%. Conventional nuclear, maybe 35%.

While there are folks who oppose nuclear power, I do not believe there are sinister elements attempting to handicap nuclear power. As to putting reactors on commercial vessels, besides the initial cost, there is the question of what happens when they sink or otherwise run into mischief. Too much of a risk; Lloyds of London would not insure the enterprise. Far easier to use a big diesel or gas turbine.
Rod Adams
Rod Adams
Annapolis, MD
29 months ago: @Mike - I tend to agree that the cost of building conventional nuclear plants is too high, but I fail to understand why you assume that the creative minds who could drive down the cost of combustion turbines cannot apply some of the same principles to driving down the cost of building nuclear power plants.

Your estimate of nuclear fuel price is off by a factor of two - the average price per kilowatt hour is approximately 0.49 cents which leads to a per million BTU price of about 49 cents since current nuclear plants have a heat rate of approximately 10,000 BTU per kilowatt-hour. (http://www.nei.org/resourcesandstats/nuclear_statistics/costs/)

There is still plenty of room for technical improvements to nuclear fuel costs - the 1970s vintage technology plants currently in operation take fuel out when it has produced just 45,000 MW-days per ton. The ultimate potential for uranium, thorium and plutonium based fuels is roughly 1,000,000 MW-days per ton. We are at about 4.5 percent of the potential.

Why don't you believe that commercial entities that compete with nuclear power will work to handicap it? Natural gas entities have paid for commercials bashing coal, steel companies pay money to bash plastic products in automobiles, Coke pays money to bash Pepsi, and Apple pays money to bash PCs. What is so sinister about recognizing that economic competition exists?

BTW - we know what will happen if a nuclear vessel sinks. Unfortunately, we have done that experiment several times. We have taken advantage of that unfortunate opportunity to measure the negligible effects on the environment. Obtaining insurance is not the issue - heck, it is possible to book a cruise to the North Pole on a nuclear powered ship.
29 months ago: The fatal flaw with nukes is in the ethics of its promoters who have the audacity to think they can impose a nuclear priesthood on the next 20,000 generations to care for their nuclear garbage.
Rod Adams
Rod Adams
Annapolis, MD
29 months ago: @tom lakosh - I am a nuclear energy promoter, but also someone who is extremely concerned about the generational ethics of our current energy choices. There is good reason to believe that the Earth will be denuded of accessible hydrocarbons within the lifetime of my first granddaughter, who will be born in a few months. That prospect frightens the heck out of me because I know just how important those accessible hydrocarbons are for a modern lifestyle on a planet with more than 6 billion inhabitants. Fission is the only way I know to drastically slow the consumption of hydrocarbons.

We have been caring for used nuclear fuel for more than 50 years. So far the accumulated volume is tiny - it could all be placed on a single football field and the pile would not reach the top of the goal posts. That material is solid, resilient and corrosion resistant. It is easy to store in simple containers and easy to handle with simple rules - do not eat the material, do not stand too close without shielding, and do not spread around the world. There is no need for a priesthood - the amount of training required to take care of the material is minimal.

Used nuclear fuel also represents a tremendous energy resource - it retains 95-97% of its initial potential energy. If the material is properly recycled, the half life drops to about 30 years, which makes the storage time about 300 years before the radioactivity levels drops to less than the original mined ore. There are plenty of examples of containers that have already lasted 300 years in the world today.
29 months ago: @rod I studied the geophysical and geochemical parameters of radioactive waste migration from subsurface disposal sites 35 years ago and all nuclides migrate at various rates and with various transport modes. The rule of thumb for acceptible nuclide concentrations is isolated storage for 20 half lives. Your most dangerous nuclides Sr 90 and Cs 137 have to be isolated for 600 yrs and when contaminated with Pu 239, 460,000 yrs.
Almost every civilized government just nearly colapsed because of subprime loans and the NRC was working on Yucca for 24 yrs before a judge had to tell the idiots that they couldn't predict the long term integrety of of waste in a volcano, sheesh. I just had a hearing with the NRC PRB on the lack of reparedness for reactors' ultimate core cooling reserves when all of the cooling water sources are contaminated by volcanic ash and they wouldn't even consider the matter unless they deemed an adjacent volcanic eruption imminent. They have no sense of propriety over time nor appreciation of the magnitude of geologic forces.
If you want a smooth transition from fossil fuels there are several indicated methods for supplying benign energy: all energy uses must be more efficient; all buildings must have BIPV/T roofs; ocean energy farms must concurrently harvest wind, wave, current and thermal energy; we must switch to efficient electromotive transportation; the use of fossil petroleum/gas must not be used for process heat and biopolymers must eventually replace petrochemicals.
Your quick nuclear fix, however enticing, is unethical for oh so many reasons and if you have any ethics you'll buckle down to find better solutions.

Rod Adams
Rod Adams
Annapolis, MD
29 months ago: @Tom - did you study the geophysical and geochemical parameters of used fuel storage containers or did you simply assume that they no longer exist?

The half lives of Sr 90 (28.9 years) and Cs-137 (30.23 years) mean that the materials will be decayed to essentially zero (below the radioactivity of the mined ore) within 300 years, ten half lives. It is only people with a mission to halt nuclear energy who claim a need for 20 half lives of isolation and who ignore the fact that humans can maintain simple containers above ground.

Your "efficient" energy sources have a common problem - they are completely dependent on the weather. Most of them will be completely useless for 70% of the time since their energy "source" disappears. Building huge structures that will be idle for 70% of their lives does not seem like an efficient use of time or money to me, especially since mining the materials for those collectors is an enormous activity.

Humans prefer to use energy sources that they can control and energy sources that can be implemented without tremendous amounts of wasted time, materials and effort.

You advocate "electromotive transportation". Where do you expect to obtain the electricity?

Now, can you please stop questioning my ethics?

As an aside, I taught ethics at the college level for two years.

29 months ago: Hey, go teach your ethics in the Ukraine and Belarus and feed your granddaughter the local vegetables because that’s the future you seek to impose on all species for ½ million years.
What humans prefer and what is sustainable are two diffent things. Right now we're acting like yeast in a jar of sugar water and will happily eat sugar and excrete alcohol until it poisons the whole colony.
The electricity comes from the 20% efficient type III-V thin film solar cells and ORC conversion of heat from the BIPV/T roofs as well as the integrated ocean energy farms that produce energy 24/7 from ocean currents and thermal gradients supplemented by wind and wave power. The world wide superconductor grid allow efficient daytime peaking from distal baseload sources supplemented by regional heat, compressed air, pumped water, capacitor, battery and flywheel storage.
Rod Adams
Rod Adams
Annapolis, MD
29 months ago: @Tom - have you ever read the book by Mary Mycio titled "Wormwood Forest"? I highly recommend it for people who believe what they have been sold by the media about the long term effects of low levels of radiation.

The last time I checked, the most efficient solar panels were approximately 20% efficient, but they are NOT the cheap, thin film panels. Those strive to achieve a conversion efficiency of 12%. In BOTH cases the efficiency is zero for 8-15 hours per day as the sun disappears from view. Whenever the sun is below an elevation of 30 degrees from the horizon, the energy production is no more than half of the advertised capacity.

There is no world wide super conductor grid. I am pretty certain that there are no more than a few hundred miles of superconductor transmission lines in the entire world.

I have spent a number of months on or under the ocean. The currents are pretty minimal in most parts of the world and the surface is often calm enough to go waterskiing. Compressed air is terribly inefficient for energy storage, more than half of the input energy is lost as heat in the process. Pumped water is a bit better, as long as you do not live in a place like my home state of Florida, where there is no "up" to pump the water to. Capacitors store charges for time measured in seconds, not minutes, batteries have energy densities that are 1/50th as high as gasoline and flywheels are very expensive per unit of stored energy.

Name me one place on earth that survives with just the source of energy that you list. How many humans would be able to survive in a world that has only those sources? Are you one of those people who advocates a drastic reduction in human population? Is that ethical? Who gets to choose the survivors?
29 months ago: The level of radiation from accidents, escaped waste and sabotage is uncertain and you absoulutely have no right under any set of ethical standards to place that burden on so many future generations.
On the other point's you're right, the described techs must be rigorously developed and require overbuilding to meet energy demand but all of them have sound technical bases to warrant a much higher degree of certainty than any proposed nuclear fuel cycle security plan devised to date. This is the price of sustainability for the planet so wake up and smell the coffee! Let's get to work finding viable AND ethical energy solutions. Free rubbers are likely part of that solution, but I'm not a Nazi.
Rod Adams
Rod Adams
Annapolis, MD
29 months ago: @Tom -

You wrote:

The level of radiation from accidents, escaped waste and sabotage is uncertain and you absoulutely have no right under any set of ethical standards to place that burden on so many future generations.

You are wrong. We know what the levels would be from all conceivable accidents and have even been forced to assume that inconceivable accidents are somehow possible. The computed damage is still FAR less than what we already accept from burning fossil fuels and also far less than the proven hazard of living in a world without reliable energy supplies.

I have spent many months within 200 feet of an operating nuclear plant. They are impressively safe and have demonstrated their safety over more than 50 years of operating experience. They are installed in vaults that are very difficult to penetrate.

I am a believer in Murphy's law, but with a corollary. Murphy says that if something bad can happen, it will. However, here is my corollary, if humans have been involved in an activity continuously for several decades and nothing really bad has happened, that probably means that it CANNOT happen.

I am not denying that accidents are possible, just that they will not have anywhere near the devastating effects that you imply. Also, if nuclear promoters have to include the potential costs of sabotage, why don't promoters of other energy sources have the same responsibility? Have you ever considered what might happen if a major natural gas pipeline is sabotaged in an urban area?

29 months ago: You're as thick as the PRB with regards to your concept of statistical hazards over time as your timeframe horizon is restricted to decades and your lifestyle impact is over hundreds of thousands of years. Where do you get off? Are you contributing to the medical expenses of Ukrainians for their radiation diseases as penance for your miscalculation of Murphy's Law? How is it that Chernobyl didn't make it into your calculations or do you think there were just a few short sighted engineers that built that plant and the rest are infallible?
Rod Adams
Rod Adams
Annapolis, MD
29 months ago: @Tom - I included Chernobyl in my calculations. The book I referenced above - Mary Mycio's "Wormwood Forest" is about Chernobyl and the surrounding area from the point of view of a Ukrainian-American journalist who moved to the area to tell the story. Here is a passage from the forward to the book:

"Initially, the disaster made me (and, I'm sure, many other people) oppose nuclear energy. In 1986 it was a painless position to hold because the price of American dependence on foreign oil had not yet become two Iraq wars, the second of which still has undetermined costs and consequences. Nor had I yet moved to Ukraine, whose complete dependence on Russian fossil fuels seriously compromised the young state's political independence. It was also before I could feel the real evidence of global warming on my own skin.

For the record, I have gone from adamant opponent of nuclear energy to ambivalent supporter - at least for giving a window of time for reducing our dependence on fossil fuels while pursuing research on alternative energy sources. But even those alternatives can have environmental costs."

The World Health Organization has done a detailed study of the effects of the accident. The total number of early deaths from the accident as of 2005 were less than 50 with the POSSIBILITY that a few thousand MIGHT die early in the years following the accident out of the tens of millions who were exposed to elevated levels of radiation.

http://www.who.int/mediacentre/news/releases/2005/pr38/en/index.html

Compared to other industrial accidents, that is not such an incomprehensible total, especially knowing how many safety features were purposely overridden by the operators to make the accident happen. A repeat can be avoided by simply not doing that again.

29 months ago: This is still a short timeframe of observations and a questionably limited one at that. Need I reiterate that the best NRC engineers chose to site a high level waste dump right over a friggin volcanic magma plume, and then attempted to justify the choice by modeling the radioactive ash distribution after eruption! I don't think these guys were that idiotic, and their rationalization clearly demonstrates that politics, bureaucratic inertia and get rich quick interests trumps sound engineering 9 times out of 10. When you add the hiring of low paid plant operators and security into the mix you begin to realize that the statistical risk is much higher than advertized and the majority of totally innocent victims won't be born in 200 years.
Where a technology has such high consequences, it has to be idiot proof and the infallible nuclear priesthood has yet to be established. Now, I’m not suggesting that there’s no acceptable cost to energy either. In fact, I might even be convinced to tolerate the large amount of neutron activated waste from fusion reactors if you can get them off the ground but fission fragments and transuranics are clearly beyond our societies’ ability to appropriately isolate in a reliable manner over the time frames necessary to preclude creation of vast inhabitable wastelands. We’ll need every square inch of land for occupation and cultivation so let’s not force the question of who lives in the hot zones.
29 months ago: That's uninhabitible and I still don't see you moving to Mazyr with your granddaughter.
Rod Adams
Rod Adams
Annapolis, MD
29 months ago: @Tom -

With regard to Yucca Mountain - I am very happy with the President's decision to remove funding from the project. I just wish that he had removed all funding, even from the licensing activities. I have been warning the nuclear industry for more than 13 years that Yucca was a stupid course of action for used nuclear fuel. Examples:

http://www.atomicinsights.com/mar96/letter_Mar96.html

http://www.atomicinsights.com/FTROU/02-02-02.html

http://atomicinsights.blogspot.com/2009/02/yucca-probably-dead-now-it-is-time-to.html

To address your point - you have it wrong. The NRC had nothing to do with the selection of the used fuel storage location. The project leader is the Department of Energy, the NRC is the reviewing and licensing agency. Even the DOE did not choose the site; it was selected by the very finest nuclear engineers in the Reagan Administration and the US Congress. (That is a sarcastic comment; there were no engineers involved in the selection of Nevada as the waste site; it was done because Nevada is a small state that was politically weak at the time of the selection while others in the running had more powerful congressmen and senators.)

One more comment - we cannot discuss the imaginary hazards of radioactive material in the distant future hundreds of thousands of years from now without thinking about the very real and immediate hazards of burning 6 billion tons of coal, 4 billion tons of oil and about that same quantity of natural gas every year. Burning fossil fuels puts about 3.6 tons of CO2 into the atmosphere for every ton of input fuel plus releases significant quantities of far more deadly waste products. People die every day from fossil fuel related accidents and routine waste dumping.

Tell me - how many people "get rich quick" from the steady well-paying jobs associated with nuclear power production compared to the multi-billion per quarter profits of several major players in the fossil fuel industry?
29 months ago: The NRC engineers were all buffaloed into rationalizing the selection. I agree the choices you present are grim and my option is expensive but at some point you have to practice the ethics you preached and at least attempt to exhaust the sustainable but expensive option. We'll certainly have to give up some toys like lunar rockets, Mars exploration and new weapons but the tech I propose is feasible given appropriate R&D investment. Your last post clearly substantiates that the safety of the complex nuclear tech you propose will be compromised by bureaucrats and they should not be given sharp objects to play with.
Rod Adams
Rod Adams
Annapolis, MD
29 months ago: I say again - you are confusing the Nuclear Regulatory Commission and its responsibilities with those of the Department of Energy. Those are two totally separate federal agencies.

Second - the Yucca Mountain decision was not made by technically trained bureaucrats, but by elected politicians. The thought was that choosing a lightly populated state with a large federally owned reservation that had been used for weapons testing already was a politically easy thing to do. I have not claimed that Yucca is unsafe, merely that it is stupidly expensive, difficult to access and a waste of valuable energy supply material.

I AM practicing the ethics that I learned and taught. I understand the health effects of low level radiation and recognize that they are far less than the health effects of either burning fossil fuel or trying to do without energy. I have studied the "options" that you suggest, looked at the potential avenues of technology improvement and determined that they are a waste of time, resources and energy. The ethics I know and understand are that it is the responsibility of people with knowledge that can avert catastrophe to share that knowledge as widely as possible.

Sailors have a saying indicating their skepticism and distrust of authoritative statements from people with little practical experience - "don't piss on my head and tell me it is raining". You keep trying to convince me and perhaps others who might be reading this growing thread that there is something uniquely hazardous about radiation and radioactive material. I have been too close to the material, studied too many medical records, read too many books, and talked to too many respected scientists and engineers to believe you.

http://www.radscihealth.org/RSH/

I guess I have to ask - what do you do for a living and where did you obtain your understanding of nuclear energy topics?
29 months ago: Rod and Tom, Great posts, both sides. I'm a nobody with nothing invested in either industry, except a gas well a couple hundred feet from the back door. Other than using fossil fuels and electricity from the grid, I have little input to the debate over which is the best course to follow. I am going to say that I believe that nuclear power is our best option for the next several decades while the other power sources are brought on line. Hate to bust your bubble Tom, but it will take many decades for what you propose to even get started. Why? Because those with the money don't care a flying monkeys butt about anything but keeping it in their pocket and making their pot of gold get bigger. Been that way for hundreds of years and no amount of bogus man-made global warming scare is going to change it. Yeah, I don’t believe MAN-MADE global warming.

Nuclear plants can be built a lot cheaper than they presently are. Simply remove all the obstacles to them and you will remove at least a third of the cost if not half. What obstacles? The protesters, the lawsuits, the massive amounts of studies covering site impact and other things that have NOTHING to do with safety or operability, most of these hindrances were put in place by the opponents to nuclear energy decades ago for the CHANCE that it would slow down the building of more plants. I’m not saying not use common sense, but to return to it. The opponents of this type energy have done their best to make nuclear energy a scapegoat of all that is bad for the environment and man, all while saying they were going to bring all this new technology to maturity and move us away from fossil fuels. I’m still waiting for a solar panel I can afford, been waiting thirty years and they are still out of reach. Like Rod said, thin film won’t cut it, not enough power out for the investment and they aren’t cheap.
29 months ago: As for other technologies wind, wave, thermal, where are they? The only non-huge corporation installation I know of is in Alaska providing cheap power for a hotel, one lousy hotel running off a power plant they designed and installed over the industries cries that it won’t work. Sure there are wind farms and wave farms and a few thermal plants but they don’t produce much and there are no real plans to install thousands of them across the globe to power the grids that are in place, and as for that superconducting grid Tom spoke of…… what a laugh, maybe in 200 more years. I am disappointed with your scale of thought Tom, do you have no clue how big the planet is? How far it is from one city to the next? If you think building a four lane freeway around a small city is expensive, try a superconducting power grid for the entire nation, much less the world.

My apologies for leaving mid thought, I must go to a going away party for my s-i-l, he leaves for Afghanistan shortly.
29 months ago: Dude, if you can't see that building a waste depository in a volcano on top of an active subduction zone is one of the top three stupidest things ever conceived of by a human being, you're beyond redemption.
Yes, we'd have to invest huge sums into R&D and mandate use of the best benign tech ASAP to make any real dent, but the fact that we screwed up so bad for so long still doesn't justify leaving our radioactive garbage for people hopefully living in the year 460,000 just so we can maintain a decadant lifestyle while 1/3 of the planet still hasn't made a phone call.
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
29 months ago: ...Coal, oil and natural gas suppliers also have a motive to continue selling their wares...

There's a difference though. If 'big oil' says something negative about nuclear, American political "Progressives" believe them because they have a knee jerk reaction about the word "nuclear" - they've weaned themselves on popular media culture and nuclear is a Dr Strangelove atomic demon that we used to bomb Japan; the fact that's it's efficient, low CO2 and green must be ignored.

Ironically enough, a "progressive" European country like France doesn't have this political handicap nor the associated high costs when it comes to nuclear power. As I noted in Change part 1, they're full tilt on nuclear power although Altruist wouldn't acknowledge that fact or critizie France. Why not? Is it because France is "politically good" in the eyes of American Progressives, especially since they were against Bush and the Iraq war? Probably goes both way though; how many red state "freedom fry" neo-cons will praise France for being nuclear powered and not caving into anti-nuclear paranoia?

On the other side of coin, if 'big oil' says something negative about solar, the Progressives don't believe them because 'big oil' is "bad" and and represents Bush and the GOP, and of course Solar is pure "clean & green" in the eyes of progressives. That's why our resident progressive mechanical engineer with a minor in physics said "Solar power is of course free and has no pollutants." I guess he believes that that solar panels are grown on organic farms by retro-hippies and there's no toxic byproducts produced like silicon tetrachloride. Also, see:

http://svtc.svtc.org/site/PageServer?pagename=greenbang_1_14_09