Health

Rave

Chalk Up One Giant Step for the People!

Posted 22 months ago|55 comments|671 views
Written by
Altruist
Eugene, OR
The House passed the Health Care Reform package!

So now the Senate bill will be signed by the president, and the Reconciliation Bill will move to the Senate for debate Tuesday.

There will no doubt be spin coming from both sides but there can be no mistake that this is a huge win for Obama and the Democrats.

Will this result in a takeover of the house and perhaps the Senate by the Republicans? Will the Tea Party Folk maintain their anger for another 9 months? Will the Republicans still be able to play on their fears like they shamefully stirred up the unruly mob outside the Health Care Debate?
http://www.commondreams.org/headline/201...
Will they continue to abuse the dignity of the Chamber by calling the staunchest anti abortion foe a Baby Killer? http://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/03/22/s...

Or will the people realize that the demonization of the bill and of Obama was just fear mongering? The sky didn't fall and the world keeps on turning after all. There is a political cost in obstructionism and baseless shouting that the country will become socialist, that everyone will loose their insurance, their jobs, will have to pay thousands in new taxes, and the world will end, if Obama gets his way.

Instead people and small businesses will get tax breaks to help pay for insurance so the insurance people have may actually get cheaper and they no longer have to worry about their children being denied coverage if they get sick.

So will the obstructionism continue? Almost certainly. Republicans are planning to delay or destroy the reconciliation bill with hundreds of amendments.

May I ask a simple question? Why?

The Republicans have been saying that killing Health Care Reform is better than the Senate Bill. That is sort of understandable, if you are healthy and rich and can afford the inevitable rate increases, and don't care about the uninsured.

But now the Senate bill is law. Why on earth would you not want to fix a flawed Senate bill? If you delay and try to kill the reconciliation bill, the country will be stuck with the flawed Senate Bill. Is that really good for the country or good for the Republican party?

Isn't it time to admit defeat and start working on what is best for the country, instead of still trying to destroy your enemies even after the war is over? At this point defeating the reconciliation bill is a little like being a suicide bomber. You may hurt your enemy, but you will also hurt yourself and all of the American people in the process.

Man up, Admit Defeat, and start doing your job for a change.
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COMMENTS
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
22 months ago: Correct me if I'm wrong, Altruist.

A reconciliation bill makes the changes in law required to meet pre-set spending and revenue levels.

The bill arises when a prior budget resolution passed by the House and Senate calls for it.

The budget committee packages the bills produced by all the other committees into one omnibus bill.

The reconciliation bill going to the Senate will not "fix" anything, it only brings the bill within the constraints of the current budget. Just like reconciling your check book. It will delay the cost over-run factors of the bill until a new budget is passed at the end of 2010, at which point there will have been a major changing of the guard in Congress.

No, don't gloat too soon, cause this bill, Obama's baby, is one abortion I'll be helping with.
22 months ago: Try 2 years plus 9 months.

Baby Killers. Whether you like it or not.

No Al. You are a socialist and shame on you. And whether you like it or not, you are a socialist.

There's no use in telling you to wait and see what happens, because you will rewrite history when you see fit.

Give me a break Al.

Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
22 months ago: No baby's are killed by first trimester abortion.

Do you support the death penalty out of curiosity?

I'm a socialist...so what?

The United States is a welfare state...roughly 50% of our budget is welfare to the elderly.
Billyberoo
Billyberoo
Cedar Park, TX
22 months ago: Life starts at conception, so yes baby's are killed in the first trimester.

I do support the death penalty, for those convicted of taking a life. What crime as an unborn baby committed???

If 50% of our budget is welfare to the elderly, it is not mo=rally right. It is only because govt has saddled the younger generations with their debt, by using the SS Trust fund as their second Credit Card.
"It is incumbent on every generation to pay its own debts as it goes. A principle which if acted on would save one-half the wars of the world."
Thomas Jefferson

"
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
22 months ago: Life does not begin at conception. Life requires conscience, which requires a full operational brain...which simply does not exist during the first trimester.

The death penalty is enormously more expensive than making the person who took the life sit in prison and think about the crime he/she committed; and I would argue that this is a far worse punishment.

It is not "if it is 50%" it is in fact 50%. Social Security and Welfare are 50% of the budget...and these programs are welfare to old people.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
22 months ago: Life begins when lightning strikes a pool of peptides and other random amino acids.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
22 months ago: If life begins with consciousness, then we have to redefine the state of being of trillions upon trillions of amoeba, bacterium, viruses, countless other categories of lower forms of....what? associated molecules with the ability to join together and propagate copies of itself? Lets don't even mention more complex carbon based highly organized collections of molecules with the ability to transform sunlight into needed nutrients.

Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
22 months ago: I apologize, I forgot that you are not capable of thought. This debate is about abortion. I am talking about HUMAN life. Does this clarify it for you for the 3rd time?
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
22 months ago: No, PH, for as between you and I, this debate is closed. I cannot conscience continuing a battle of the minds with an unarmed child, and as your outbursts of petulance indicate, you are still a bit wet behind the ears.
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
22 months ago: If we closed topics for petulant outbursts, Rant Rave would be done for :)
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
22 months ago: Unarmed child? So because my view of when life begins does not align with you moral views that means that I am "wet behind the ears"? Perhaps you could recognize the fact that not everyone in the world shares your religious moral views.
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Billyberoo
Billyberoo
Cedar Park, TX
22 months ago: Any politician who uses money confiscated from me or anyone else, to aid and abette baby killing is a baby killer

One Giant Step into a load of Dog Crap, that's what this bill is.
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
22 months ago: ...Any politician who uses money confiscated from me or anyone else, to aid and abette baby killing is a baby killer...

Yeah, it's a shame what Bush did in Iraq.
22 months ago: Okay Mark.

2 wrongs make a right
Billyberoo
Billyberoo
Cedar Park, TX
22 months ago: First off Bush was enforcing UN resolution that that Corrupt organization would not enforce (probably because of all the money being embezzelled through the oil for food program).
Second he took out a dictator that had done this to his own citezens
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/01/2...

http://www.historycommons.org/events-ima...

Third, He is not the godam president anymore.

Because it's a shame what Truman did to Japan, and Kenedy/LBJ did to Vietnam, and FDR did in Germany.
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
22 months ago: The selective moral indignation of religious and political zealots never ceases to amaze me. You cry crocodile tears over abortion yet barely blink when 4000 of our young died in Iraq for a quagmire. Don't quote me UN baloney that Bush and company engineered - we went in unilaterally and prophetically, let's see what Bush Sr wrote in an article titled, ""Why We Didn't Remove Saddam"

"We would have been forced to occupy Baghdad and, in effect, rule Iraq. The coalition would instantly have collapsed, the Arabs deserting it in anger and other allies pulling out as well. Under those circumstances, furthermore, we had been self-consciously trying to set a pattern for handling aggression in the post-cold war world. Going in and occupying Iraq, thus unilaterally exceeding the U.N.'s mandate, would have destroyed the precedent of international response to aggression we hoped to establish. Had we gone the invasion route, the U.S. could conceivably still be an occupying power in a bitterly hostile land. It would have been a dramatically different--and perhaps barren--outcome."

What a shame that Bush Jr was on some kind Christian crusade and didn't have daddy's wisdom - thousands of young Americans for a barren outcome. You are right though; it's history and has nothing to with the health care bill, but neither does carping about abortion and calling it baby killing. That's just another red herring that the teabaggers employed in their effort to make health care Obama's waterloo.
Billyberoo
Billyberoo
Cedar Park, TX
22 months ago: I guess calling them baby killers is the equivalent of you and your atheistic, God Hating, socialist, history re-writing zealots calling people that are proud and learn from U.S. history and the enlightment of our founding Fathers, and beleive in a limited central government, calling us tea baggers. And we will Tea Bag each and every one of you.
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
22 months ago: "Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination."

-Thomas Jefferson, Autobiography, in reference to the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom

History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes.

-Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, Dec. 6, 1813.

Now that's enlightenment from a founding father and certain never to be found in a Texas revisionist history book as proffered by the religious right.
scotmanster
scotmanster
22 months ago: Glad to see I'm not the only one who is seeing people for what they truly are around here. Mark Bush really messed with you brain didn't he?
scotmanster
scotmanster
22 months ago: Yea bigot defines you well Mark.
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
22 months ago: For the religious right to call anybody a bigot is nothing less than the scorched bottom of the kettle shrilly calling the pot black.
scotmanster
scotmanster
22 months ago: Truth hurts doesn't it Mark?
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
22 months ago: Stop prevaricating and I'll let you know
22 months ago: I don't call 219 Dems vs. 212 Americans a super majority. Get your time stamps in for your prescription drugs today. Your time is running out.
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
22 months ago: I thought your Lord and Savior Rush Limbaugh said the Dems didn't have the votes.

"Flashback: Conservatives Guaranteed 'ObamaCare Is Dead,' 'Pelosi Doesn't Have The Votes'"

http://thinkprogress.org/2010/03/22/cant...
22 months ago: ...I thought your Lord and Savior Rush Limbaugh said the Dems didn't have the votes...

Mark? what is your favorite Bar-B-Que Sauce? Just so we know how you like being cooked.
scotmanster
scotmanster
22 months ago: "Or will the people realize that the demonization of the bill and of Obama was just fear mongering? "

Yes that would be the case if we knew what was in the Bill. But guess what we still don't and that is were you be made out to be a fool once you realize what you passed. You are a sheep among the rest of the flock Al.
22 months ago: How about me? I broke from the ''Church'' and I call you a religious bigot.

Straight out. You are a bigot Mark.
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
22 months ago: You broke with the Church? When, last month, yesterday, an hour ago? So you're an agnostic or atheist now?
22 months ago: Mark, you need to go back and read my many posts about ''Breaking'' from the ''Church''. I broke from the ''Church'' long ago and kept the truths of Judeo-Christian religion.
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
22 months ago: You said "the" Church and not "a" Church so I presumed you broke with Christianity. One can be just as religious staying at home as they can at the local steeple house, and if you're a social-conservative too, the religious right tag fits.
scotmanster
scotmanster
22 months ago: On one hand we have Al crying global warming the sky is falling and to push measures through to stop population growth and on the other hand you have him saying lets pass health care becuase it will save people. If that is not a double standard then I have no clue what is. The Healthcare bill was not at all about whether it saved people it was a push to change this country fundamentally. I hope we do see these changes in our lifetime of how our taxes will increase becuase of the mammoth debt they continue to ignore. Somewhere down the road someone will have to pay for this lack of intelligence.
Billyberoo
Billyberoo
Cedar Park, TX
22 months ago: I find it funny that mark calls anyone that stands against abortion a religious zaelot, or one of the religious right. I can tell you Mark I, and a lot of others are niether. I just view killing a human in a premeditated manner murder. Be that human in the womb, or out.

The only way I can explain how you people who want government to fund abortion is you want others to share in your misery. "Misery loves company!!!"
22 months ago: Obama wins big with Health Care because the USA is the last major nation, modern nation, without.

But anything national, from a speed law to an educational requirement, finds disagreement. Within health care we find abortion, possibly the hottest issue. But not the only issue.

These are specifics that don't have perfect solutions and need more attention. But without a framework, such issues remain unresolved and unresolvable. The Health Care Bill gives us a form and a format to work with. And also gives us some control of those who will perform the health care, the lack of abortions, and the many other actions the bill addresses. It is a beginning, and not intended as being final and complete. Life goes on, after all.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
22 months ago: "And also gives us some control of those who will perform the health care,"

Okey dokey then. I guess you won't have a problem when it's your turn to be controlled.
scotmanster
scotmanster
22 months ago: Al check out what the bill is doing in the State of Tennessee . It shows alot about how serious this all is. So please keep celebrating, that fat lady has not sung yet.

So while you force people with your socialism States will counter it.

http://www.rantrave.com/Rave/Tennessee-H...

22 months ago: On the same day President Barack Obama signed healthcare reform legislation into law, 13 Republican state attorneys general filed a federal lawsuit against the overhaul.

Florida Attorney General Bill McCollum, who is running for governor, filed the suit in federal court in the state's northern district. Attorneys general from South Carolina, Nebraska, Texas, Louisiana, Alabama, Michigan, Colorado, Pennsylvania, Utah, Washington, Idaho and South Dakota also signed on.

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-r...
Altruist
Altruist
Eugene, OR
22 months ago: Allow me to correct a Big mistake in this post. The person who was called a Baby Killer by Texas Republican Rep. Randy Neugebauer, was the biggest Democratic opponent of Abortion. Rep. Bart Stupak. A lot of these Texans want to cecede from the union. Perhaps that is why they are so disrespectful of the Congress and fellow representatives, even if he is a strong anti abortion ally.

OOTB the reconciliation bill is about budget differences but it is more than that. It reconciles differences between the Senate Bill and the House Bill. Essentially they get together and hash out their differences. In this case there were a lot of mistakes that needed to be fixed including that boneheaded deal where a whole State didn't have to pay Medicare and included enough money to close a gap in the Medicare prescription drug coverage over the next decade, starting with an election-season rebate of $250 later this year for seniors facing high costs. The bill will reduce the deficit by $138 billion over a decade.

If the Republicans succeed in stalling or sending the reconciliation bill back the Senate Bill will still be law, just without the fixes.

Scott you said "On one hand we have Al crying global warming the sky is falling and to push measures through to stop population growth and on the other hand you have him saying lets pass health care because it will save people. If that is not a double standard then I have no clue what is.
Stopping global warming will save millions of lives, so will family planning and education to reduce overpopulation in poverty ridden nations that can not support more people. That seems consistent to me.
It seems ironic to me that states that need the help the most, like Texas with the most uninsured who will benefit the most from this bill, and Tennessee who wants to pull themselves out of the national pool designed to bring costs down, are fighting this. They are shooting themselves in the foot.


Billyberoo
Billyberoo
Cedar Park, TX
22 months ago: The fact is nobody was called a "Baby Killer" The Bill was called the baby killer.

"The bill will reduce the deficit by $138 billion over a decade." That is only because they took the "Doctor Fix" out. They, as Nazi Pelosi says, will pass that separately. That part of the bill will cost over $240 billion. So that then leaves a defecit.

Mathematics does not lie. It is probably the only thing that produces truth. Accounting, and Statistics include a Human Element which, as we can see in the case of government, can produce fallacies.

"If the Republicans succeed in stalling or sending the reconciliation bill back the Senate Bill will still be law, just without the fixes." And this will make Nazi Pelosi the most gullible Speaker in history. The system was designed to have both house check each other, not conspire to defraud the nation of its wealth. I hope they do nothing in the Senate, this way Pelosi, BO and their Cohorts have to live with the shame of signing a bill in to law with the most kick backs and payoffs in history...not a good way to hold on to power.
22 months ago: No the sky will not fall and the world will keep turning. Do you have a clue as to what is most frightening thing about this for those who understand it for what it is? The most frightening thing about it is that initially things will seem to get better. At the beginning those little candy coated peanuts like rebate checks and other sweet little goodies will have persons such as you singing the praises of socialized health care. This is always the case. As the coffers are being pilfered and the handouts are being gobbled up there is praise and back slapping a plenty. It's like the guy who just got paid and is buying everyone drinks at the bar. Everyone loves the guy and there is such great talk about what a grand guy he is. But when he has spent all his money and wakes up the next day with a hang over and no money to buy a meal all those friends will be long gone. So it will be with this Obamacare. Obama and company think they are doing a wonderful thing for America. They do after all have many cheerleaders just as yourself telling them so. Hitler also had millions telling him he was doing great. For years after the Soviets murdered the Czar and his family and robbed all the wealthy Russians, things looked good. Government handouts flowed and until the Soviet collapse we knew little about the millions murdered or sent to slave labor camps. No I have little doubt that things will look peachy and millions of Americans such as you Altruist will bristle with excitement and be even more willing to let the government take care of our needs and spread the wealth. It has after all happened many times before just as it is happening here. Always there are the millions of enablers. Always there are the untold numbers of victims. Always it takes years to develop. Always it ends in despair. Enjoy your victory Altruist. Ignorance I suppose is bliss. The most frightening thing is the fleeting success that creates the mindless mobs of enablers. So far we are right on track.
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
22 months ago: Yep, it's just like Ronbot said - we'll soon be arrested and brought to the 800 FEMA camps manned by 159,000 foreign troops. In fact, I saw them setting up one of the camps on Merritt Island here in Florida - it's going to be a tight squeeze.
Billyberoo
Billyberoo
Cedar Park, TX
22 months ago: ETIENNE DE LA BOÉTIE: »Tyrants would distribute largess, a bushel of wheat, a gallon of wine, and a sesterce: and then everybody would shamelessly cry, "Long live the King!" The fools did not realize that they were merely recovering a portion of their own property, and that their ruler could not have given them what they were receiving without having first taken it from them.«

Here's a link to the Whole Discourse on Voluntary Servitude

http://mises.org/rothbard/boetie.pdf
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
22 months ago: Hey Jakarta!!

Long time no see, hope your sabbatical was full of interesting things!

You hit it dead on with that. So far, no one has even attempted to dispute, and I'm surprised no one has tried the reductio ad Hitlerium rebuttal. Figures, because they know you speak what everybody already knows, they are just afraid of talking with their mouths full.
22 months ago: Thanks OOTB. I've been pretty busy and still am. Back in school as well as the wife. Both of us are staying pretty busy with our work and school plus trying to spend quality time with the daughter, parents etc. May not get much input in here but sure enjoy dropping by from time to time.
22 months ago: Jak is back? Been missing you. I can't send 8's unless I want to be accused by the left of the site as being GAY.
22 months ago: Yea, been missing everyone at RR. The wifey should be finishing her MBA this year so unless she decides to continue (which is possible) things may ease up after that.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
22 months ago: Why is being progressive a bad thing? I enjoy progress. Just because you are afraid of change doesn't mean that change shouldnt happen.
Billyberoo
Billyberoo
Cedar Park, TX
22 months ago: It's a bad thing because you and your kind want to Progress to a Socialist State (which for all practical purposes is a REGRESSION to TYRANNY).

Its bad enough we went from a Free Market to Merchantilism, to Private Enterprise to wind up at the Welfare State we are to day. Maybe I should consider myself a Regressive because I want to PROGRESS back to a true free market, with liberty for all.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
22 months ago: Except for the gays, lesbians, trans-gender and bisexuals of course right?

How is socialism equivalent to tyranny?

What free-market? We have never had true free-market in the honest sense of laissez-faire.
Billyberoo
Billyberoo
Cedar Park, TX
22 months ago: "It is the subordination of every individuals whole life, work, and leisure, to the orders of those in power and office. It is the reduction of man to a cog in an all-embracing machine of compulsion and coercion. It forces the individual to renounce any activity of which the government does not approve. It tolerates no expression of dissent. It is the transformation of society into a strictly disciplined labor-army." Ludwig von Mises

That is Tyranny, that is Socialism.
Billyberoo
Billyberoo
Cedar Park, TX
22 months ago: Read your History. Even though we were never a 100% Free Market, The beginning of the 1800's while Jefferson was Prez was the closest, only because he could not undo the Damage Washington allowed Hamilton to do during his Preseidency.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
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Altruist
Altruist
Eugene, OR
22 months ago: The Republicans will continue to spread baseless propaganda, stoking fears of socialist takeovers, like the drivel above, but the people are already learning about the REAL bill not just the horror stories the right has been scaring everyone with.

The public now approves of the bill 49% to 40%. Even before this latest poll if you broke down the polls something like 20% disliked the bill because they didn't think it was liberal enough (no single payer or public option). When they were added to those that approved of the bill it was something like 53% in favor or wanting it to go farther to the left.

Now the Democrats can move on after their huge victory, and solve the many problems the nation now has like jobs, energy, immigration, and ending the two wars.

Meanwhile the Republicans, having bet the farm on causing Obama's Waterloo, will have their own Waterloo. Obama was elected to bring about change and the Republicans bet their jobs on resisting any change at all. They lost that bet. Since they have no plan B, they are just going to continue to try to turn the clock back to the philosophies and policies of Bush, the worst president ever, who single handedly nearly brought down our own constitution and the economies of the entire world. I hope they continue to try to take away people's health care, now that people have had a taste of reform. They will sink deeper and deeper into the quicksand of obstructionism.
Altruist
Altruist
Eugene, OR
22 months ago: Jakarta I have consistently warned of the danger of the national debt and the deficit since I came on this site.
I am glad we are finally doing something to bring down costs with this health Care reform. If Obama can bring the troops home, and close some of the thousands of military bases over seas that we do not need, we can save trillions more.
But the only way we can pay off our $14 trillion dollar debt is to restore the top marginal tax rate to historical levels. The tax rate on the rich averaged about 70% before Reagan and was at 90% during times of war (like now).
That will allow us to give tax breaks to the middle class and small businesses where most of the job creation and economic stimulus occurs.
22 months ago: Alitruist. I find it very interesting that you cite Bush and "our" government as almost taking down this country and even the world's economy. Yet you push for this same government "our" government to take more control of the health care system which will also mean direct control of our selves and our families well being.
In effect Alitruist you are saying our government (the U.S government) has the potential to make huge mistakes, to abuse it's power and potentially ruin the country, so we should entrust and hand over the power to this same government the control of our health care system because the government will do the best job.
Oh I know you will say it is the Republicans who make huge mistakes not the Democrats. The Republicans are capable of abusing power and making mistakes not the Democrats. The Republicans have the capacity to do horrible things like arresting thousands of innocent people, taking their homes and possessions and then imprisoning them for years without a trial. No wait that was your Democratic poster boy Franklin D Roosevelt who took thousands of Japanese Americans from their homes and placing them in detention camps for years. All the while their children fought and died on the battlefields of Europe for the same country that unjustly imprisoned their family. Hmmm if you don't feel this was a terrible mistake and abuse of power then Stalin was not so bad to you eh?
22 months ago: It is a contradiction to me that liberals scream how badly our government has messed things up by going into Iraq and Afghanistan. How liberals scream that the government abuses its power and is "unfair" to minorities or ethnics. Yet these same people desire with all their heart to have this same government take over our health care system. If you think our government has the capacity to do such great work then you should be happy to hand over the Iraqi and Afghanistan people's health care system as well as everything else to the U.S government's control. It would seem they would realize what a favor we did for them and thank us………right?
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