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Why do most Christians worship a human being?

Posted 11 months ago|66 comments|753 views
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Even outside of the Christian churches the story of a man born some 2000 years ago that taught a revolutionary message of peace resonates! It resonates with inspiration to Asiatic peoples. It resonates with hope throughout Africa. It resonates with inspiration across Europe. In fact it is fair to say that there isn't a part of the world whose peoples are not at least minimally familiar with the life of this one single man born some 2000 years ago in an unremarkable town somewhere in what is now known as the middle east.

We therefore do not have to ask who this man is. Ask this question and any number of people will volunteer very similar answers: A prophet, a messenger, a teacher, a rabbi, the son of God, Savior, deliverer, messiah, God! Wait a minute did I just say God! That is right! This man of amazing influence is known to a large percentage of the world as God! He is worshipped as a living deity! Graven images are made portraying a human being often in a supine position with arms nailed extended on two intersecting pieces of wood. This object is then venerated as either the physical manifestation or representation of this human being, this man whom is worshipped as God!

Why do most Christians worship a human being? I guess the same question could be asked of Buddhist but any Buddhist will tell you that despite the alters and prayers and candles that what they do is not worship. Hard to believe right? Well Christians also have a similarly convoluted explanation. They say that this human existed before he was born in the form of a being that is separate yet the same as God and that it is this being that was born in human flesh and it is this reason why they worship a human as God!

But can a man be God? Interestingly enough the worship of this human being started inside a religion that taught that no physical representation of God should be made. A religion that taught that God was an ever present, all powerful and invisible force, one whose life force was in all creatures but that could not be contained. It, incase you want to know, did not teach that man could be God. This religion as you have already surmised was unique during those days.

In fact most religions of that time period believed in Gods becoming men or men becoming Gods. This type of belief was considered idolatry by the religion whom this man belonged too. Christian insist that this man claimed to be God but that would be a sin to the very religion that he belonged to and c certainly he couldn't have thought to himself that he having been born was the God of the religion he professed? Not unless he had been influenced by the religions around him! The other option is that he did not profess to be God. It could very well be that what he professed is that God spoke through him in a way that man had not experienced before and that this made him special enough to follow him.

But this is not good enough for those who worship human flesh. To such it is important to pray to a visible deity. It doesn't matter to them how unreal that concept might be. There is also an obvious danger besides idolatry in worshiping a human being, as if that wasn't bad enough. Humans are faulty and that means that any believable person saying they are this man-God could conceivably have millions of people led astray from the true God's commands. So why do most Christians worship a human being?
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Altruist
Altruist
Eugene, OR
11 months ago: The teachings of Jesus are almost diametrically opposed to the cruel and vindictive beliefs of judaism. Some theologians believe that Jesus was influenced by the teachings of Buddha and might have traveled to Egypt to learn Buddhism during his 18 "missing years". http://www.thezensite.com/non_Zen/Was_Je...

The early Christians and especially the gnostics believed that everyone had the power inside them to become "sons of god" or to reach enlightenment. It wasn't until the promise of becoming the official Religion of Rome that the bishops weeded out this spiritual aspect of Christianity because Jesus's teachings did not depend on the hierarchical power structure of Rome where the bishops told the priests what the people should believe.
11 months ago: Wow Al,

...a Democrat speaking on issues of faith! Man, next thing we know you will be saying you are a Buddhist! Why, it was just the other day you were saying that Democrats were not "faith based" rather "fact based" ...I guess we all choose certain "facts" to put our faith in! But, as to your assertion that Jesus was influenced by Buddha... you got that backwards too... Jesus Created Buddha:

(Jesus) "Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by Him were ALL things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by Him, and for Him: And he is before all things, and by Him all things consist." (Colossians 1:15-17)

...and DJ... Just another reason to WORSHIP HIM... Jesus Christ is the Creator!
11 months ago: The Gnostics were wacked.

Read the book of Galatians and get back to me on that. That was written far before the creation of the Catholic church.

Read it. Really. Share your thoughts.

11 months ago: DJ,

It is about time you exposed yourself... finally no more beating around the bush; you simply don't have a grasp on Biblical Prophesy and how it was fulfilled in Jesus Christ being called Mighty God... and Everlasting Father....

"For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace." (Isaiah 9:6)

...you go on to say...

"...Christians also have a similarly convoluted explanation. They say that this human existed before he was born in the form of a being that is separate yet the same as God and that it is this being that was born in human flesh and it is this reason why they worship a human as God!"

...the scriptures are the basis of our faith not the other way around, and the Apostles made it clear...

"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached to the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory." 1 Timothy 3:16

Either you don't understand, or you are ignorant on purpose, it makes little difference, your post has nothing to do with the teachings of the Bible.... do your homework first, this is a rehash of what we have already covered in another of your posts... seriously "Dwayne".
http://rantrave.com/Rave/Trinity-In-Ques...
11 months ago: God has only one Spirit... yet He is called the Spirit of the Father, the Spirit of the Son, the Holy Spirit and the Spirit of God... yet only one SPIRIT.

"For it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you." (Matthew 10:20)

"You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Him." (Romans 8:9)
11 months ago: Imagine you told people you came from Truthbrarry Land and when people asked you where it exists you told them you can only get there if you die and then when they asked you to prove it you pointed to a set of letters between you and a friend and when they seemed doubtful you told them that this land was converted into Canada and the proof is in those letters! Well my dear TB that is what every non Christian is hearing you say! By the way Altruist is merely quoting some esoteric material out there. He never said he has founded his faith on it!
Altruist
Altruist
Eugene, OR
11 months ago: TB Buddha was around 500 years before Christ. So since this article was talking about men Jesus probably learned from Gautama. The concept that Jesus was divine was only believed by about half the Christians 300 years after he died, until the Officials and Bishops decided they would have more power (and money) with people worshiping a diety than in following the teachings of a philosopher.

I admire the philosopher and do not accept the validity of the Bible or the divinity of Christ.
11 months ago: Al,

Abraham lived 1500 years before Buddha and Jesus, your admired "philosopher" said that He lived before Abraham...

"Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am." (John 8:58)

...how can you admire someone you just called a liar?
11 months ago: TB,
Imagine you told people you came from Truthbrarry Land and when people asked you where it exists you told them you can only get there if you die and then when they asked you to prove it you pointed to a set of letters between you and a friend and when they seemed doubtful you told them that this land was converted into Canada and the proof is in those letters! Well my dear TB that is what every non Christian is hearing you say! By the way Altruist is merely quoting some esoteric material out there. He never said he has founded his faith on it!
11 months ago: Well said. He is Who He claimed to be, a liar or a mad man. Can't have it any other way.

Also Buddha had nothing to teach Jesus in the same way a pot doesn't teach it's craftsman how to mold.
11 months ago: The premise of the post is totally inaccurate. MOST Christians do not worship a human being. They worship God as He has revealed Himself in the Lord Jesus Christ. To add anything to that is utter non-sense.

Why don't you post the truth rather than vain speculations? Are you trying to bring glory to yourself or to God?
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
11 months ago: Hmmm

"So why do most Christians worship a human being?"

All philatelists collect stamps.

All readers read.

All runners run.


Christ commanded that he was to be worshiped.

I would say ALL Christians worship a being that was human for a time.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
11 months ago: Dwayne

You have unwittingly made a great case proving the oneness of the God and Jesus.

Jesus spoke to Lucifer in desert and said "Go, Satan! For it is written, 'You shall worship the Lord your God, and serve Him only.' "

And yet, when others worshiped Christ, He did not rebuke them, nor even correct them.

Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him. (Matthew 2:2)

And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh. (Matthew 2:11)

And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean. (Matthew 8:2)

While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live. (Matthew 9:18)

Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God. (Matthew 14:33)

Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me. (Matthew 15:25)

Then came to him the mother of Zebedee's children with her sons, worshipping him, and desiring a certain thing of him. (Matthew 20:20)

And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him. (Matthew 28:9)

And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. (Matthew 28:17)

And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy: (Luke 24:52)

And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him. (John 9:38)

Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, (Colossians 2:18)

And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. (Hebrews 1:6)

Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. (Revelation 14:7)

4:9 And when those beasts give glory and honor and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,
4:10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honor and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. (Revelation 4:9-11)

5:11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
5:12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honor, and glory, and blessing.
5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
5:14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever. (Revelation 5:11-14)


Notice in the Revelation, that the 24 elders give Jesus the same honor that was given to the Father.
11 months ago: BOX,

...what you said!
11 months ago: Anyone who runs to the bible and pulls out any number of quotes that refer to or allude to the manifestation of divinity in the person of the Messiah are missing completely the point of this essay. As I demonstrated with my last essay on the nature of the son of God. Gods son is his word and as his word it has the ability to manifest Gods fullness to reveal the glory of God from whom the word proceeds but make no mistake the word exists only because the father exists and it is an extension and a manifestation of the power of the father.

The glory goes to the father because he manifested the son. The son gets the glory because it is a manifestation of the father much like one would praise the work of Shakespeare because it is a splendid work but one would never deny its authorship as the words of Shakespeare. Quite simply the point of this essay is to draw attention to the fact that Christians separate God into different persons and then only worship the flesh whom they believe God manifested himself in thus committing idolatry.

The flesh was human not divine. it was faulty. God manifest himself in the frailty of human flesh not that we might worship our elevated humanity but that he might save it! Unless God came into man again we would not be able to become a new creature, born again, saved from our former wretched state. What God the father did in the flesh of the man we know as Jesus (elevate his humanity) he promised to do in us. We can become like Jesus, perfect and sinless.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
11 months ago: Oh yeah, certainly wouldn't want to use the Bible, God's word, to try to figure anything out. We should just try to understand Him by using our vastly superior intellect.

I don't think anyone alive today worships Christ's physical body, primarily because no one knows where it is. The Catholics, and some other religions, use images to strengthen the connection between faith and perception, but I don't think many of them actually worship the statues, or consider the graven images to be actually imbued with the powers of God and Christ.

Worshiping Christ is not worshiping a human being. It is worshiping that part of God that created everything we know, that came to us to die for our atonement, and that returned to heaven.
11 months ago: You don't know Catholicism then. Go look up what the Eucharist is.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
11 months ago: Well is this post referring to Christians, or Catholics?

One of the things I do agree with Altruist about is the fact that the early Roman Catholic church used religion as a crowd control tactic. It was also a very useful voluntary tax system, since the church and the state were the same thing, and opulent temples were built to shame the people into giving more in tithes.

One of Jesus' main objectives was to provide a direct conduit from sinful man to God the Giver of Law. The Roman Catholic church, in defiance of Jesus' words, took away that conduit, and claimed to return the power of salvation back into the hands of the clergy. Jesus was horribly crucified so that man wouldn't have to go see a priest to gain absolution, and the Catholics have the nerve to teach that a priest can hear your confession and give you pardon.

Once again I ask, is this post referring to Christians, or Catholics?
sunny2
sunny2
11 months ago: Box I'm a Catholic. I don't put my trust in men I put my trust in God.
Some people are good and some aren't. They are people just like you and me.
When I was about 10, I went with my cousin to confession. I was only a little kid, and I had nothing much to say aside from kid stuff that kids always feel guilty about. He slammed the door that divided us in my face. He was a nasty guy. He didn't phase me because I knew he was an idiot. Plus, my Dad would of knocked him on his back side.
Jesus was horribly crucified, and it angers me today.
It was politics again that he took the fall for. It should never have happened.
People have to forgive themselves first. Nobody can do that for them. Possibly absolution being administered by a priest comes with that territory giving people a step up to forgiveness. Think of the consequences without it.
I had a Jewish friend, and she said that in her faith they threw bread into water and that is how their sins were forgiven. I like that much better tell you the honest truth. No middle man. I am a Catholic, and we have to follow rules.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
11 months ago: sunny2

I was taught that there is only one way to forgiveness, and that is through Jesus Christ. Not through a priest or ceremony. Jesus is the middle man, who gave his blood as the blood sacrifice.

Do the Catholics teach that the priest can absolve you from you sins?

1 Timothy 2:5

For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

That's what I believe.
sunny2
sunny2
Content Removed by sunny2
sunny2
sunny2
11 months ago: : Yes I understand.
No, a priest cannot absolve you from sins, and it doesn't happen through ceremony. I hope I didn't say that to you.
Sometimes during mass, absolution is given to the people all together, but they have to follow up with the confessional. I believe in the Holy Trinity with no one in between. After all we don't know anything about life in the hereafter.
It doesn't matter what we believe or how we intrepret because I don't think Jesus really cared about that. I think he got his point across. He taught us the guidelines. In the end we should try to live our lives where we don't harm others.
A ceremony or ritual brings people together. It is a way of reminding them who they are and why they are here and to keep that connection with Christ in their lives. I don't believe that we are condemned if we don't attend. Christ lives in us.
Of course, the Bible is read at every service where people don't find the time during the week. Not many people go to services anymore. Things have changed from the time I was a child.
The feeling I get from church is being in the presence of God. I don't make anyone outside of that important.
Coloranter Raver
Coloranter Raver
Denver, CO
11 months ago: Not that I necessarily believe or agree with any ot the God mythology, I offer this only as a point of historical fact to those who do and claim to know everything about God and Jesus, but won't read the Qur'an to add to and/or correct their mythology.

The Holy Qur'an states that this is a point that people got wrong and not surprisingly given that God's prophets were so amazing. It was easy for primitive people to think that Jesus was God, when, in fact, he was just one of the 1000s of messengers sent to spread God's word. It also states that people should not worship the prophets, they should only worship God and work to build their relationship with Him. Worshipping a prophet as God is sinful. No where did Jesus ever say he was God.

I will never be able to understand why so many people who choose to subscribe to the God mythology are simultaneously disinterested in reading his last set of messages. For me, ironically, I found the Holy Qur'an to be an outstanding reassurance that much of what the Bible says happened actually did. There is much congruence and overlap between these ancient holy scriptures. But, the most ardent of God-worshippers won't read it, won't take a look, assume it to be heresy, I don't know. Really? Isn't it heresy to ignore the word of God? And how do you know? How do you know the Holy Qur'an isn't more accurate and more about what God wanted if you've never read it? It's like studying physics and stopping at Newton and ignoring Einstein. So, I have a hard time reading the God worshippers and their stuff, when they ignore an entire slice of the God mythology. Sure, it basically puts an end to Christiianity because, according to the Qur'an Jesus was no more the one and only son of God than any other person. It also absolves Eve of Original Sin. But believe what you want and don't open your eyes.
11 months ago: CR,

By calling the Qur'an "Holy" and quoting it as it should mean anything... just remember in for a penny in for a pound... get out your sword and start converting the infidels! You are like many, if it has to do with religion then it has to do with Christianity... wrong. Jesus said...

"All who came before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them." (John 10:8)

...including Muhammad. Jesus said He alone was the way, truth and life... either that was the truth or a lie... can't have it both ways.... more than just a little NARROW...

"Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because NARROW is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it." (Matthew 7:13-14) emphasis mine
11 months ago: CRR - Have you read the Hadith? Have you read Dianetics? Have you read The Pearl of Great Price? How about the Book of Mormon? Why not?

If you had actually read the Koran you could understand why the Jesus presented there is not the Jesus of the Bible. Then you could make an intelligent decision as to whose report you choose to believe if you choose to believe either one at all.

The greatest mythology out there is that mankind is the result of a single cell organism run amok. That life has no purpose and we are a cosmic accident. All the irrational secularists who adhere to that dogma unashamedly peddle that crap better than the Fuller Brush Man.

If you are waiting to read every "holy" book on the planet before you can develop some spiritual conviction and guts, you never will.
11 months ago: You and I perfectly know that the spirit and power that inhabited Jesus flesh is of God so there is no point in quoting ad nauseum how much this is the case. What you should quote is texts where God directs humans to worship human flesh. "God was manifest in the flesh" that is the mystery Christians bamboozle. You worship a man! You worship flesh! It is the spirit of God that deserves worship not the flesh it inhabited. The flesh is frail, human and weak and it is that flesh that you have exalted to God status committing idolatry.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
11 months ago: The flesh Jesus wore here on Earth is long gone. Vanished. Ascended into heaven.

I'm a bit confused. Are you saying that we should not worship Jesus? Or are you saying that we should not equate him with his earthly body?

I worship the living Jesus, the Jesus who is and always was, not the body that walked 2000 years ago. I just can't get my mind to worship that far in advance of when I was born.
11 months ago: Worship the spirit that dwelt in him, that made him divine, the spirit of God the father. Because what made him Jesus was what made him human and we are not supposed to worship humans!
11 months ago: It can't get any more simple than this: God is spirit. He can inhabit anything and everything. That is his nature. He chose to inhabit human flesh in order to save it. This cohabitation of the divine and the profane is whom we know as Jesus. Human flesh was enmity to God. He fixed it. By transfixing human weakness completely with perfection God undid the damage human sin had done.

As for Islam its influence was Hindu in nature. Mohammed traveled with the trade caravans before getting his professed revelations. Hindu's don't believe in sin. They believe people forget and so it is mans purpose to remember. Likewise Islam teaches man is not sinful just prone to forget and that religion and rituals serves the purpose of reminding forgetful man.

This is not what Christianity before it teaches which is that humans not only forget but willfully transgress God's laws and that the punishment for transgression is death. A penalty that all must pay but none can afford which is why in God's mercy he provided a substitution for those who believe and make use of it.

Incidentally The whole purpose of the Torah was to teach this all to important lesson that humans are sinful and need redemption and atonement. Some forms of Judaism are actually still looking for that redemption and atonement. They don't believe it happened because deliverance is permanent and visible and as we all can see we are still living in a very messed up world.

Secularist and religious apologists in general like to form a neat unification of Islam, Christianity and Judaism by calling it Abrahamic faiths and noting their commonalities but any serious student of religion can demonstrate that Judaism today is a vastly different religion than that of ancient Israel. And that Christianity's gods and rituals are not Jewish in origin but that of ancient Rome. Islam's religion doesn't even share the same context of redemption as Jews or Christians it only uses its vocabulary, prophets, heroes and villains but it is basically a faith inspired by Hinduism.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
11 months ago: "The flesh was human not divine. it was faulty. "

So Jesus wasn't perfect because he was in a human body. Then you go on to say:

"Human flesh was enmity to God. He fixed it. By transfixing human weakness completely with perfection God undid the damage human sin had done."

So Jesus' body was then perfect and sinless?

"We can become like Jesus, perfect and sinless."
11 months ago: OOTB,
You shouldn't worship Jesus at all. Jesus was a human being in whom dwelt the working spirit, word of God. It is the author of God's word who should be worshipped, The one who declared the seventh day holy because on that day he rested, the father of Jesus.

Jesus flesh was human it was made from human DNA. It was sinful. The crucifixion broke Jesus. It pierced him through and through. His flesh which contained our sin died on the cross. God's spirit took control of this flesh while Jesus was a man on earth. Every temptation was met with the word of God.

"Thus saith the Lord" was how the curse of sin was broken because with every part of human will bent and conformed to God's image there was no power of evil left over the flesh. Jesus declared before his death that he had overcome the world. Sinful flesh was made to conform to Gods law and was sacrificed. This bond between the divine and the profane was taken to the grave. The profane flesh was sanctified in the only way possible, it was transformed by the indwelling spirit of the most high. Jesus rose by the power of his fathers promise, that his flesh should not see corruption. The flesh of Jesus became perfect because of this transformation. This flesh is promised to all of Jesus brothers and sisters. Jesus is the new adam. Jesus is become the perfect man. Jesus has become the image of who we will become. The indwelling spirit of God reunited with mankind. God has become one with us. Leading us directly through his word, his son, Jesus.

It is a sin to worship a human being even a sinless one. Only God the father deserves worship.
11 months ago:
"...because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." (Romans 10:9)

Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
11 months ago: Dwayne

I have to know before I can continue this conversation:

Was Jesus, in your opinion, God, made flesh? Or was he flesh, made perfect by God?

Obviously, if he was God, made flesh, then he was perfect and Godly at birth. If, however, he was just another human who ultimately was possessed by the Spirit of God, then when did such transformation take place?

You apparently believe in the doctrine of original sin ("Jesus flesh was human it was made from human DNA. It was sinful. ")

Romans 5-12 states: "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned"

This verse deals with the oft accepted patriarchal responsibility or what is known as Federal Headship that is a recurring theme throughout the entire Bible.

But Jesus was not subject to original sin, as he had no earthly father from which to inherit it. He was not a "natural" man, but rather a supernatural one.

Back to you Dwayne. Do you agree or disagree with anything I have stated? And the question I posed, if you please.
11 months ago: Out of the Box,
First let me tell you what I believe sin to be. It is the transgression of God's law. Second let me tell you what I believe happens when a person transgresses God's law. It transforms him. Third let me tell you what happens to that transformed human once they procreate. She and he pass on their transformation to their progeny.

I don't know what you mean by original sin. What I do know is that things like alcoholism are inherited, as are criminal behaviors and problems with anger management. The list goes on and on of human disorders that link us by heredity to our ancestors. Things which the bible calls sinful. Even homosexuality might be genetic. What does that tell you about inheriting sinful traits and the origins of a sinful nature?

The original Adam was made from the earth. His DNA was a blank slate. There was no humanity in him. He became human when the spirit of God was blown into his nostril and he became a living soul. The only code in Adam at that time was that which was introduced by the spirit of God. However every human after that was made from a human mold, a blueprint. sort of like a sourdough starter. There is an exact duplicate of instructional code given to us from our parents that make up who we are. This code not only has the spirit of God but our own flawed character traits. It is these flaws that increase with each generation drowning out the spirit of God eventually leading to our death.

Jesus is this flawed human DNA pattern infused with the living word of God. God's perfect image imbedded into every pore, nook and cranny. Jesus life on earth was the process of God the father via his infinite living word transforming each atom and strand of genetic material to conform to Gods perfect will. God's mission was to recreate the image of God back into man. This is why Jesus is called the second Adam. He is the new blueprint. He is the new mold, the new sourdough starter batch! It is in the image of the risen Jesus, the new Adam that the faithful is made. It is his DNA that we will inherit.

The flaw in Christian logic is to detach God the father from the process of salvation. It is God the father who saves and Jesus is the instrument of that salvation. The text's you guys keep quoting predominantly refer to the outstretched power of the infinite father God whom dwelt in the flesh of Jesus. The instrument of salvation is the transformed living savior. He is what you will be. God dwells in him much the same way he wants to dwell in you. It is not this transformed flesh or the memory of him before death that you should worship but the indwelling spirit that transformed him that you should revere and adore. It is the spirit of God that leads to God and to it you should cling, nothing else.

The danger of clinging to the flesh is that you do not know yet what you will be. Any perception of what Jesus is like is simply flawed and will lead you astray. The only safety is worshipping God in spirit and worshipping him in truth. And what is truth? His word, his, law is truth! Obey the will of the unseen God and you will receive the image of the risen Jesus, by faith.
11 months ago: yes and?
11 months ago: "It is a sin to worship a human being even a sinless one. Only God the father deserves worship."

Hebrews 1:6
And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, "AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM.

Philippians 2:10
"so that at the Name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth"

Isaiah 45:23
"I have sworn by Myself, The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness And will not turn back, That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance."

Revelation 5:11-14
Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice, "Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing." And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever. And the four living creatures kept saying, "Amen." And the elders fell down and worshiped."

John 5:23
"so that all will honor the Son in the same way as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him."

John 20:28 as well.

To confess that Jesus is Lord and God is to worship him.

'Nuff said.
11 months ago: I suppose you don't get that the Bible is not making a distinction between the indwelling spirit of God in Jesus and Jesus. So that it is clear that Jesus is the only way to the father period! But that Christians in their ignorance are separating the two and they worship Jesus in human form excluding the spirit of God that dwells in Jesus to whom alone should be ascribed worship. Perhaps you don't seem to get that, hum?
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 Moderator
11 months ago: I guess the reason I don't get it is because I'm a Christian, and I don't worship only the human form of Jesus, even though he was a divine being for the entirety of his walk on Earth. If I was alive during the 33 years he was here, and I was in the Middle East, or had been exposed to him, I probably would have worshiped the man. But as it is, I recognize the Jesus in Heaven as a spirit, and worship him as such.

So now are you saying that Jesus SHOULD be worshipped, as long as the worshiper understands and makes the distinction that Jesus is no longer a human being, but rather is a part of God the Father?
11 months ago: OOTB,

Ahh, but Jesus is still a human being. He conquered sin and death in human form and rose to heaven as such. It is the union of God's spirit and Jesus human flesh that is our blessed assurance. That is the sacrifice he presents before the father, the spotless lamb. Did God command the ancient Jew to worship the sacrificial lamb? No right! Instead he was to offer it to God as his substitution.

The Passover lamb was to be consumed. It is the acceptance of Jesus as sacrificial lamb as our substitute that makes salvation possible because accepting Jesus transformed flesh as our substitution, sacrifice is what allows the indwelling of God's holy spirit. Just as The father dwelt in Jesus he wishes to dwell in you. This can not happen if Jesus is not accepted as the spotless sacrificial lamb.
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 Moderator
11 months ago: You never did answer my question,

Was Jesus born as God, made flesh? Or was he born as a human, and then sanctified after he was born by the indwelling of the spirit of God?
11 months ago: OOTB,

Sure I did! In fact I answered you several times. You just don't seem to grasp the concept. He was neither! You call Jesus God. Jesus is not God. Jesus is the Lamb of God. He is the atonement. No where in the Torah or The Prophets did God ever tell the Jews to worship the sacrificial lamb. The Lamb (Jesus) is offered up to God on behalf of the penitent sinner (us). Jesus is not God!

What you seem to be mixing up is that God inhabited Jesus via his eternal word which is an extension of himself [(the father)not a separate entity] It is this same word of God that entered Adam's nostrils to make him a living soul. Adam is not God either! It is this word that inhabited the human flesh of Jesus and transformed him into the new Adam. Jesus human flesh was conformed to the will of God via God's eternal word! It is this eternal word that is promised to us( This word is God's spirit [not a separate entity either]) Just as it transformed the flesh of Jesus through Jesus submission it can transform you and me by submission also.

What made Jesus the human being different than other humans is that he had his human imprint from his mother only. His father was not human. His Father was God! He not only inherited the original breath of life through Adam's lineage but had the added benefit of perfect guidance from his father through the indwelling eternal word of God! What you worship is the flesh of Jesus and not the indwelling spirit of God that guided him. This spirit that dwelt in him is God's spirit. The same spirit that Jesus promised to dwell in us through faith but you wouldn't worship any other person just because God's spirit dwells in them, right?

Do you understand or no?
11 months ago: DJ,

We are trying to be patient with you, but you say... "Jesus is not God" ...when the Bible clearly says He is...

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made... 14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth." (John 1:1-3, 14)

...you seem to forget that you are not necessarily disagreeing with us, you are directly disagreeing with scripture. I matters little if you want to do that and call the Bible a lie... it is your prerogative, just don't call yourself a Christian. This "faith" is not our own... it was handed down to us from the Apostles, unchanging regardless of the winds of political correctness or unbelief.
11 months ago: "I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God's curse! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God's curse!" (Galatians 1:6-9)
11 months ago: You don't understand what you read.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
11 months ago: Perhaps you are not explaining clearly. A good teacher does not berate or browbeat his students, he finds a way.
11 months ago: Jesus is the Word of God. Right?

In the beginning was JESUS, JESUS was with God and JESUS was God. Jn 1:1

And the JESUS became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen His glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father. Jn 1:14

This in no way violates the scriptures. Everyone who reads John 1;1 know what it says. It is easily and clearly understood.

Even the JWs know what John 1:1 says. They can read. However it doesn't fit their theology. That is exactly why the Watchtower purposely mis-translates the verse. To make it fit.

You can disagree with what it Jn 1:1 says, you mis-tranlate it, you can even try to explain it away, but none of that changes the facts.

11 months ago: If the Author of John 1:1 wanted the reader to understand that John 1:1 referred to Jesus he would have said Jesus. But he didn't. Instead he said, "The Word" . Later in that chapter he calls him, the light of men. In fact the author goes on to explain the mission of the word, the light of men and how he was rejected by his own. The author does this right before he goes onto explain what the word became. He took on flesh. Jesus my friends is that flesh! The word inhabited that flesh.

Jesus possessed of the flesh is not the same as Jesus being God notice verse 14 says, " and we beheld his glory" What glory does it say we beheld? It says, "the glory as of the only begotten of the Father". Notice that it doesn't say Jesus is God. The word is called God because it is a part of God that proceeds from God but Jesus glory was different. His glory was that of, "the only begotten of the Father". It is also important to note what Jesus(The flesh) was possessed with. It says he was, "full of grace and truth." These are also synonyms for the spirit of God.

As I said before you are not properly discerning what you are reading. The Scripture is making a clear distinction between Jesus and The spirit that dwelt in him. If it was the Bibles intention for its readers to interpret the meaning of being called, "the son of God" as the same as being called God then calling those that accepted the word of God , "sons of God" also would mean that they too are God. But they are not. Read more carefully guys and don't skip verses. All of them have vital meanings that you might be missing.
11 months ago: "The word is called God because it is a part of God "

You are full of non-sense and double talk on this matter. If the Apostle John had meant to say the Word was a part of God, he would have said that. He did not.

You don't agree with the scripture therefore you bastardize it rather than openly disagree with what it clearly says. That is dishonest.

Good-bye.
11 months ago: Again, you are missing key words. I can't make you see them if you choose not to but I can point them out. It says the word was with God and it was God. My arm is with me and it is me. Why? Because it is a part of me. There is no word play here Huey. You are made up of the sum of your parts. Your arm is a part of you. It is you. Your feet are a part of you. They are you. Whatever is with you and is you is a part of you.

Don't get angry because I've clearly broken down to you the logic of my argument. Your proof text require a superficial reading of those text. But once they are carefully analyzed it is obvious that their intended meaning is different then the one you are teaching. I know it must be hard to believe because so many people make the same mistake but what is clearly there is clearly there.

I don't care if you believe it or not. You believe that Jesus is the key to your salvation and that is what counts the most. I just point it out to you so that you don't inadvertently worship human flesh instead of worshipping divine spirit. God is one, Huey, not three. Worship him and him only. But that is up to you. Not my affair! I'll be here if you want to come out and play again.
11 months ago: Please don't mistake my being blunt for anger. Also the reading of that text is not superficial at all. It's point blank.

I re-iterate:

He (Jesus) received worship on earth as He will in Heaven. See my statement above.

He is the Alpha and Omega, the Creator of Eternity and the Mighty God. First and Last. The I AM. He is the only Savior. He is not the Father yet He is one with the Father. By His own power He raised Himself from the dead. He is the forgiver of our sins. Every knee will bow to Him. He has all authority and power in heaven and earth. In Him all the FULLNESS of God dwells bodily. There is no other Name given by which we must be saved. He is the sole Creator of the universe. By Him all things consist and hold together.

Yes. He is the Key.

Peace.
Out Of The Box
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 Moderator
11 months ago: "Your arm is a part of you. It is you."

It is only you as long as it is a part of you. As soon as the arm is separated from you, it is no longer you.

If someone were to punch you on the arm, you could rightfully claim that someone punched you. If your arm was severed, and someone punched your severed arm, you could no longer claim that they punched you, only that they punched your arm.

Apply the same principal to your car. A tire is not a car, but as long as it is attached to the car, then anything that happens to the tire can be said as if it happened to the car. Such as "My car had a flat."

If you are saying that Jesus was simply a man imbued with the Spirit or power of God, then he couldn't have been a part of God. He would have been partly God, and partly man, but Jesus as a whole would not have been part of God. Only the God part would be part of God. The rest of him would have been not a part of God. He would have simply been a man in whom God dwelled.

If you are saying that Jesus was created by God with the Godly attributes of perfection, and the ability to fulfill the Law by never once breaking it, then still Jesus would not have been a part of God, he would have been another of God's creations.
11 months ago: I call it as I see it. Jesus was flesh. He said, "of my own I can do nothing.", "I come to do the will of my father", "My God, My God why have you forsaken me" and most telling of all " I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God." God's spirit, the word definitely inhabited Jesus Which is why people worshipped at his feet. Where else were they supposed to go he has the word of life! But Jesus was just human flesh embodied with the eternity of God. He is our sacrificial offering to God our father.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
11 months ago: "But Jesus was just human flesh embodied with the eternity of God. "

Simple yes or no question: Did Jesus exist in any form before he was born?

No obfuscation or convoluted explanations, please, just yes or no.
11 months ago: Asked and answered but here we go again. You ask me if Jesus existed in any form before he was born? Are you serious? Did you exist in any form before you were born? You might say no but the fact is you did. You existed as part of your mothers DNA. And you existed as part of your fathers DNA. Were you a sentient cohesive you then?

Before he was born, Jesus exited as part of his mothers DNA just like you. But unlike you he exited also as the perfect image and word of God also, the same one that gave life to Adam and you and me. But unlike us His fathers image was perfect. Ours not as much.
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 Moderator
11 months ago: Couldn't do it, could you? Just a simple yes or no.

Your answer implies that everything that is, always has been. An egg is not a being. It is a collection of molecules.

But just in case you misunderstood the question, and aren't deliberately dancing around it, let me ask it a different way.
Was Jesus, the Son of God, a sentient being before he was born here on Earth?

11 months ago: Why can't you accept the clear testimony of scripture? Does the Bible not say that Jesus was born to Mary from a virgin, that Jesus father is God, the same father that created you and me?

The Word of God on the other hand exists from the beginning and according to John 1 it became flesh. Do you not see what the difference is? Do you want it in chronological order?

1. God
2. God's Word
3. Creation
4. Sin
5. The incarnation of The Word(God's Spirit) in Jesus
6. Jesus Ministry
7. Jesus Dies (The Word of God/God's Spirit Leaves Jesus)
8. Jesus is really dead! (Not making believe because he is really God)
8. Jesus Resurrection (God calls his son from the grave/God's spirit, word returns to Jesus)
9. Jesus returns to God!

You can't call the word Jesus before it inhabited Jesus because Jesus did not exist until he was born to Mary. The Spirit that possessed Jesus was and is the Word of God and once inside of Jesus it was one with Jesus flesh so it could say that before Abraham was I am because that would be true but make no mistake that the whole purpose of God's word becoming flesh and being born into the person we call Jesus was not so that we could worship this new Jesus as a man-god in place of his father but so that It could become our atonement. The flesh is week but God's spirit is strong. Jesus made perfect is the vehicle by which God's spirit can inhabit our flesh too, just like it did Jesus.
Out Of The Box
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 Moderator
11 months ago: Buried in your long response I found your answer to my question.

'Jesus did not exist until he was born to Mary.'

So, in your list of chronological happenings you can delete #2, because it would be redundant.

In your explanation, God's word is the same as God, so the Word would not need its own name. You say God speaks His Word into existence. Why are the angels not called the Word? They were spoken into existence by God. Why is the universe not called the Word? It also was spoken into existence.

So here you go. The Bible DOES say that God the Father raised Jesus from the grave.
Acts 2:32 "This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses."


And then in Jesus' own words, He would raise himself from the grave.
Jhn 2:19 "Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."

Yes, you have provided a great argument in favor of the Trinity.
11 months ago: OOTB,

How is God's word redundant? If God doesn't speak nothing gets done. His word is his creative force. God comes before it. It remains as number 2.

God did not speak his word into existence. His word is a manifestation of his power. There is a difference. Our word is just breath but It still speaks of us. God's word however is living. God is all life. When God speaks out comes life force undiminished, a real manifestation of all of Gods power. Still not a separate person. All God!

Angels were created, humans were created, plants were created The body that became our atonement even Jesus body was created (It spent 9 months in Mary's womb being knitted into form. Gods word proceds from God, it is an eternal procession from him. It is his!

This is why you keep stumbling on this point. You fail to make a distinction between the human flesh that was part of Jesus and the living spirit (breath of life) that came from his father and made him the son of God. Much like Adam was God's son because It was God's spirit and word that was breathed into his nostrils like wise is Jesus.

The Human soul is composed of two parts: the flesh and the spirit. Adams flesh was a blank slate made of the soil of the ground. It had no DNA, no prior life to it. Therefore Adam could only claim one parent, God.God breathed into his nostrils and he became a living soul. Every other human on the other hand has flesh with life already in it. We have two parents A mother who gives us flesh with life already sparked and a father who gives us flesh with life already sparked. Our original parent therefore is God because he gave Adam and Eve life but biologically speaking The cycle of human input into each successive generation of human birth has left us very far from God.

Jesus was different. He was born from a woman. He had inherited human flesh with the life spark in it. That made him a full fledged human, along with all our failures and faults and sins. But he had something special that other humans didn't have. He was missing a human father. Into his human flesh was added what can only be called a second dose of God's spirit. He had the original spark of life from his mother that made him a living human but just like Adam, Jesus father was not human. Jesus father was God.

That means that for every human trait that he got from his mother he got a divine trait from his father. Human frailty was met trait for trait with divine perfection. His human imperfection was made perfect through his fathers spirit which he received from God which made him God's son. This perfected temple was the first born of the new creation. Because of the human family he was the first to be transformed by the indwelling of God's holy spirit. When Jesus said that he would raise up this temple who do you think was speaking? The spirit of God dwelt fully in him. He spoke by the authority he received from his father, whose spirit he had and whose spirit had transformed his flesh. There was God's spirit living in him, period!

Still no trinity!
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 Moderator
11 months ago: Dwayne

I didn't say God's Word was redundant. I said that, under the terms you have ascribed to God, to list it twice under two differing names would be redundant. You have God, period. Everything that goes along with God, the Holy Spirit and the Spirit that dwelled in Christ is still God.

Are you saying that God's Word is somehow manifest differently than God? That perhaps it is separate from God, yet still a part of God?

It really doesn't matter. Someone wrote a nice piece on a discussion page I recently read about how Christians get caught up in compartmentalizing, and someone commented that each one has it's own interpretation and insists that they are right and everyone else is wrong. It's a pride thing.

It's all gonna be revealed in the end, and that's good enough for me. May God's blessings fall on you and yours, and may your search for the truth be rewarding.
11 months ago: OOTB,


The list I wrote was in order of how things happened. God is not listed twice. God existed from eternity long before he made himself manifest. His making himself manifest happens through the revelation of his word. The revelation of God from his word is what I have listed as number 2.
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11 months ago: It's cool, Dwayne. Except the Bible states that "in the beginning was the Word".
I'll give you a little wiggle room and concede "in the beginning of what?" I take it to mean in the beginning as in "I am the beginning and the end, the alpha and omega...".

Otherwise in my opinion it would have read God's Word became manifest, or God created the Word, or something such as that. But it didn't. It says that in the beginning of everything there was God and there was the Word, and the Word was with God in the beginning, and the Word was God, in the beginning.
sunny2
sunny2
11 months ago: I rather believe in a deity that can keep man in order than be thrown into a vicious dark world of disorder.
It takes some pretty powerful words to withstand the decades and keep us humble. No ordinary man could ever achieve this.
I have a feeling that when Jesus was born into existence this World was given a chance. What would we have been without Him to reach out to in times of need? Who would we have thanked for the gifts bestowed on us or for getting us through unbearable times? We could not get along without Him. I don't think we would have made it this far if you think about the wars and devastation we went through.

11 months ago: Sunny2, I'm glad he lived too!
sunny2
sunny2
11 months ago: That's for sure Dwayne
10 months ago: I am currently reading the Urantia Book. For me, it has a lot of real truths where the Bible only confuses others.

The bottom line is this: Everyone has to work out their own salvation. Right? So, just do it. Because your mistakes in life are the only things you can truly get to own. And once you are judged for them, then you either confess or you well, we know what a lot of folks believe...
sunny2
sunny2
10 months ago: Sometimes the answers are so simple when you let go and don't complicate Jesus with over thinking.

15 days ago: John 1:1
In the beginning was
With evident allusion to the first word of Genesis. But John elevates the phrase from its reference to a point of time, the beginning of creation, to the time of absolute pre-existence before any creation, which is not mentioned until Joh_1:3. This beginning HAD NO BEGINNING.

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