News & Politics

Rant

Unions are the problem

Posted 20 months ago|25 comments|814 views
Written by
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
I have never been a fan of unions, however recent events have come to pass that has driven me to the point of nearly absolute hatred of everything they do. I will provide 2 examples that have led to this revalation.

1: I live in Chicago. Chicago has a great number of expressways that run around and into it. This summer it was decided that ALL (and I mean all) of these roads needed to be resurfaced at the same time. On a side note, most of the interstate freeways/highways/expressways built around Chicago are old, and such are only 3 or 4 lanes wide. This typically leads to dramatic traffic to begin with. Couple that with reducing these roads down to 1 or 2 lanes in each direction along with slower speed limits and you face a situation where traffic becomes horrendous (not like China, but still bad). I have regularly heard traffic times this summer on the radio of 250 minutes, 120 minutes, 115 etc etc for drives that are maybe 10 or 15 miles. So as the construction is just getting underway, the lanes are tore out (this is a key point) and the unions decide to go on strike. Keep in mind the intentional waiting until after the lanes were tore out so that they could not be reopened during negotiations! Every day these people were just standing there holding up signs looking for pity from the millions of people parked on the road trying to get to work. This was particularly offensive in that during this time when so many people are desperate for any job, these rat bastards decided that they were going to complain about the jobs they had (high paying jobs I might add). This act was despicable.

2. I am currently VP of the small company I work for. It came time to hire some people in as we had a small influx of business and were falling behind. I placed an add and got literally hundreds of responses. After sorting through the initial emails I then called in several people for interviews. I was looking to hire 2 people, one with experience and one at entry level type work. I quickly hired an experienced person who has never worked in a union shop but had 15 years experience. He requested and received $16/hour to start. Then I started looking for the entry level type person. After seeing 6 people who had experience ranging from 0 to 5 months I called back 3 for second interviews. These 3 people all 0, 2 and 3 months experience in this type of work, however all 3 worked in union shops. Their desired salaries nearly made me laugh: $24/hr, $21/hr and $29/hr. I literally asked the last person if they were serious and with dead certainty he was. $29/hr for a person with 2 months experience is an absolute joke. Eventually I found a recent high school graduate who started at 9/hr but quickly through hard work has earned himself 2 raises.

Now on to the consequences of Unions. 1st off they mutate true cost of production and manipulate and abuse minimum wage work. For example, if my company bids on a job against a union company (This is in Illinois which is a Union Shop state) we have to add to our bid the amount of money it would be at average union wages. So say we have a job that will take 10 hours and our average shop wage of the employees working on that job is $15/hr we would have to add to our final bid an amount of money to bring that wage up to $24/hr...in other words it is set up for us to not be able to compete with union shops.

The second problem is that Unions cause higher unemployment and hurt the economy of the states in which they are powerful. For example: John Deere is headquartered in the Quad Cites (Moline & Rock Island, IL and Davenport & Bettendorf, IA). Illinois is a Union Shop state meaning that Unions are very powerful and are able to manipulate employers to their benefit. Iowa is a Right to Work state, meaning Unions have no power, for example if my company was located in Iowa and I simply heard an employee talking about unionizing I could fire him/her on the spot. A few years back it came time for John Deere to build a new factory to replace its aging one located in Moline, IL. John Deere decided that the new production factory would be build 4.5 miles away from the existing shop...across the Mississippi in Iowa. They allowed anyone who was willing to not be unionized to stay and the rest were fired and replaced with new non union workers. The average wage of their employees dropped from roughly $28/hr to $15/hr (Still a decent wage, especially in that part of Iowa/Illinois). This practice has become more and more common in Illinois for companies located along the Mississippi and it has dramatically hurt the economy and employment of the people of Illinois that used to work for these companies but were being overpaid.

Unions once served an important purpose when employers were truly abusive. But today the unions only use their power to get themselves higher (overpaid) wages for work that could be done for a livable but much lower wage. The tables have turned 180° and unions now abuse employers to the point of going out of business. These people are blinded by greed and the "glamor" of the union as they don't realize that as they strong arm themselves higher wages that when the company paying them goes out of business they then earn nothing.
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COMMENTS
20 months ago: "and I simply heard an employee talking about unionizing I could fire him/her on the spot" Really? Even in a non-union shop state there are rules that the employer has to abide by.

For you to even make a statement like that leads me to believe you have some power issues that need to be addressed.

I am absolutely NOT a union supporter, but I will fight for a workers rights tooth and nail.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
20 months ago: I believe in workers rights as well sir.

The point of that statement was merely to point out that in right to work states "at will" employment truly is "at will". This is not the case in union shop states. I would never personally fire anyone for unionizing even if I could (which I can't in Illinois). The "I" was figurative for demonstration purposes and not an actual statement of my own actions.
20 months ago: That first comment out of my system, I finished reading the article. Your last paragraph can be turned around as well, replacing "union" with "employer". They to feel they have unlimited power to hire and fire at will with no regard to the effect on the local work force. To push wages as low as they possibly can with no regard for the huge profits they make on that labor, all for the purpose of padding their own pockets with huge bonuses and golden parachutes.

I'm all for reducing the union stranglehold on employers, but with that I must also insist that the employers play fair with the profits, especially if they manage to remove the unions and reduce wages, the (upper management and "the board" and the stock holders) money shouldn't all go to those already making millions, or at least hundreds of thousands more than the line workers.

Since you are a VP, what is the wage difference in percentage between your pay, bonuses, perks, etc. and the average hourly wage person in your company? 100%, 200%, 600%? Remember, they don't get perks, monthly bonuses or any of the other amenities you do so you have to count them as part of your income.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
20 months ago: Employers have the right to fire anybody for any reason SO LONG as those reasons are not protected/illegal such as race, religion, creed, sex etc etc. That's why its called at will employment.

The company I work for is small. The wage difference between the average employee and me varies but the median difference would be about 13.5%. I receive no bonuses, no perks, I do not receive insurance, I am salary and I work far more than 40 hours per week. The hourly employees get paid vacation, insurance if the choose to purchase it through our group plan and mileage reimbursement (technically I get this too). There actually are a few regular, hourly employees that make far more money than I do.
20 months ago: Don't know the extent of your contract but if you aren't getting compensated as welll or better than the hourly workers, time to renegotiate. State probably has rules about how many hours you can/will work without getting overtime pay, even on a salary. If you don't claim them, they won't pay them.

Expertise without a degree usually does get top pay, and is usually a much better technical source than those who have a degree, that's why some hourly get paid so well.

13.5% is not an offensive number, someone is managing the payscale within respectable limits, if it holds to the top.

I know that someone in the company will be making lots of money compared to others, I just like to hear that the wealth is shared up and down the employee line, not all going to the top with just enough to keep the doors open going to the bottom.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
20 months ago: My contract is satisfactory to me. I had health insurance to begin with so rather than increase the companies strain I just kept mine. Of course the state has regulations. I work about 50 hours/week.

The two people who make more than me are hourly employees that have been working for the company for 15 and 17 years respectively.

The highest paid is the President of the company. His salary is roughly 23/24% higher than the median pay; which to me is pretty reasonable.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
Content Removed by Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
20 months ago: "I'm all for reducing the union stranglehold on employers, but with that I must also insist that the employers play fair with the profits, especially if they manage to remove the unions and reduce wages, the (upper management and "the board" and the stock holders) money shouldn't all go to those already making millions, or at least hundreds of thousands more than the line workers."

I agree, to an extent. I think that wages should be fair based on what work you do. Now, to me it is fair to say that uneducated "line workers" deserve to make a less money than the people who run the company. But there are different classes of work and I know that a lot of people who work manufacturing jobs/line jobs make a decent living. My company is a manufacturing company. I can tell you that nobody here at this small company is being paid unfairly. All of the older people (25+) make more than 31,000/year. There are 2 young (18 years old) kids that make less, but they just graduated high school and still live at home. That being said both of them make 24,500/year. I mean this may be lower than a union place but where we are located (not in the city) it is a very livable wage for the area.

With the exception of 2 of the new employees mentioned in the article everybody else that works here has been here for more than 10 years so we must be doing something right.
Altruist
Altruist
Eugene, OR
20 months ago: I worked in a non union steel fabrication shop. The shop had wages and benefits that were substantially lower than similar shops nearby. We went to management and asked for raises and they said no deal. SO we contacted a union rep and started organizing.

Management bowing to the inevitable gave us all raises and we stopped the unionization drive.

The owner of Massey Coal was rabidly anti union he cut safety corners and put his workers at risk and they had no recourse but to do what the boss said, and they died.

When everyone is suffering and wages and benefits are going down the tube, it is easy to point to the unions who have managed to protect some of their wages and benefits and blame them. But Union workers have also made enormous sacrifices during this recession. The Auto workers have agreed to cut their wages and change retiree benefits to make them more competitive.

When I worked as a teacher the teacher's union voted to get by with lower wages in exchange for promises not to fire more teachers.

The point is that Unions are absolutely necessary for the good of all workers. They insure a safe working environment, they prevent sexual harassment, they prevent discrimination, they are the safety net of the American workers.

What we really need is to unionize the management, the CEO's, the Bankers, stock traders and the rest of the robber barons and make upper limits to what they make. It is exactly like the government workers at Bell California. If you give them the power to determine their own wages they will give themselves salaries that are thousands of times what the real workers get.

The government has a wage grade salary system that bases the compensation for the job on comparisons with private industry. We should do the same and compare our wages with those from other countries. In other countries the CEO's only make about 40 times what the workers make. Here it is thousands of times.

We need a MAXIMUM wage Law!
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
20 months ago: A few things: As for safety, OSHA is just a phone call away, and they service non-union workers all the time. They are at my shop every month.

As for your personal experience. You were an at will employee right? So if you were unhappy you had a very simple recourse...quit. Go find a job at one of those other shops. But likely what happened was that you ignored the fact that something per hour is a lot more than nothing per hour. Unfortunately you and your fellow employees decided that rather than be happy about having a job, or using the recourse you do have (quitting) that you would bully your employer into giving you what you want.

I point to the unions at all times. They are unnecessary, ancient behemoths that have destroyed blue collar work, not only for employers who cannot afford to pay the ridiculous wage demands but for the employees who don't want to have to pay to go to work.

Unions are absolutely not necessary for fair employment to be had. Keep in mind that most of those giant companies with the nasty CEO's are not blue collar companies. Unions are typically associated with blue collar work. You are comparing apples to oranges.

Maximum wage??? Are you serious? The fact that some people got an early jump on something or have worked their way to the top should not be reason to limit their income.

Conversely, Wage economics shows that the economy would greatly benefit from abolishing the minimum wage (I will likely post an article on this later)
20 months ago: "So if you were unhappy you had a very simple recourse...quit. Go find a job at one of those other shops." Spoken like a true employer who views workers as a means to an end rather than assets to be treated with respect and retained.

Quitting a job without first lining up a new one sounds like something upper management might be able to do due to the large difference in income between management and worker bee that management enjoys, and if management get's canned, they usually get a separation package of several months pay and then unemployment, worker bees just get unemployment, if anything. Quitting a job is just not something us lowly paid hourly people do (the ones who really want to work and pay their bills), we tend to try and get management to raise our pay and benefits up to acceptable levels. Same as what Al mentioned and if upper management is willing to share the profits, even though they still get the lions share, then an agreement can usually be worked out with little "bloodshed".

Bullying works both ways. Employers bully their worker bees into working for low pay, in poor conditions, in violation of OSHA standards and in many other ways, all while holding the "We can fire you peons at any time" ax over the workers heads (see how that comes back to bite you). Workers bully the employer by threatening to organize with a union, work slowdowns, even sabotage.

"rather than be happy about having a job, or using the recourse you do have (quitting)" Hey dude, we all have to eat, quitting results in no pay, no unemployment, nothing coming in each week, bills don't get paid, food doesn't get bought, us hourly peons don't have massive reserves of cash like management does so we have to keep our jobs and work from the inside to improve them. Being happy just to have a job doesn't always work out, why do you think unions became so popular in the first place? That piss poor attitude you just expressed! Employers were grinding the workers into the dirt and keeping all the profits for themselves and telling the workers they could go work for someone else, all the time knowing that there were no other jobs to be had, anywhere.

You are right. Unions are not necessary for fair employment to be had. All that has to happen is management pay and treat the employees fairly without taking all the company profits for themselves.

I'm waiting to read this article that extols the benefits of no minimum wage laws.
20 months ago: You have to be kidding me.

I go a way, and come back, and pefect has turned into a giant tick?
20 months ago: How is that RED? A blood sucking VP that is now anti-union? Dang, times can and do change right before our very eyes. Next he will be visiting Tea Party rallies and voting conservative for his childrens future.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
20 months ago: How am I blood sucking?

I have always been anti-Union.

I am just pragmatic about my opinions on things. I take each situation individually and analyze it (as opposed to just applying a blanket policy to everything based on what Sarah Palin and Glenn Beck tell me to think).
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
20 months ago: Also, I have no children, and never want any (they are way too expensive).

I would never attend a Tea Party rally...they are far to interested in applying Christianity to everything...I want real solutions, not ones based on fairy tales and moralistic oppression.
20 months ago: ...Also, I have no children, and never want any (they are way too expensive)...?

Too bad for us your parents didn't hold the same values.
20 months ago: Ever heard of Kafka? That's where the tick comes from.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
20 months ago: Wow...
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
20 months ago: Good to see you back.

Not sure how I am a tick but its nice that even when we do agree you cannot be civil about it.
20 months ago: Pefect.

There is nothing uncivil about my comment.

You metamorphisized into something unrecognizable railing against fellow communists.

It was a bit shocking.

Capiche?
20 months ago: Hey Perfect. Since you hate unions so much...

Does that also apply to government union workers? Since 99.99999 percent of civil servants are union? Yeah, I mean from the bottom to the top.

You name one single government position that is not a union job.

Don't play that administration / management game.

Start with your garbage collection crew and work up.

Name one. Mr. anti-Union / pro-Government.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
20 months ago: "Does that also apply to government union workers?"

You betchya it does.

"You name one single government position that is not a union job."

Not that its relevant but the President technically isn't in a union.

"Mr. anti-Union / pro-Government."

Mr. Anti-Union...sure. Mr. Pro-Government...when did that happen?

I am not "pro-government"...I just tend to agree with the social viewpoints of the Democratic party more often than that of the Republicans (except on gun control and union issues).
20 months ago: You must have not read the next line... so here it is again...

"You name one single government position that is not a union job.

Don't play that administration / management game."

You then answered...

"Not that its relevant but the President technically isn't in a union."

So I ask again and I'll spell it out in terms you might answer...

What government employee of position in the lower than management level is not a union position.

Your answer?... The military? Maybe that is why so many military families are on welfare and food stamps... Because you pay those postal servants 150 thousand per year then turn around and ask to bail them out.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
20 months ago: I actually did miss that. Such a position does not exist and that is one of the largest problems facing the economy and budget of the United States.

Once again. I hate unions and have never said I was pro-government. What you cannot accept is that I am not an idiot who blindly applies the thoughts of Rachel Maddow and Keith Olbermann to everything in the world (something that you and RSG have not figured out how to do with Sarah Palin and Glenn Beck.)
Altruist
Altruist
Eugene, OR
20 months ago: According to official union figures the union membership rate for public sector workers is only 37.4 percent.

Within the public sector, local government workers had the
highest union membership rate, 43.3 percent. This group includes work-
ers in heavily unionized occupations, such as teachers, police offi-
cers, and fire fighters.

So actually 62.6% of government workers are non union!
http://www.bls.gov/news.release/union2.n...

If it weren't for the unions there would be no child labor laws, no 40 hr. work week or overtime pay. No vacations, No health insurance, and no safety regulations. The Unions are the only thing that has kept America from being like China or any other developing country where the laborers are shamelessly exploited.

Unions help everyone by keeping management honest. If they become too unfair then the workers can unionize or threaten to do so as I did. When Unions improve working conditions they raise all boats with them.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
20 months ago: Thanks for doing the research on this Al. I actually did not know most of that information.

Moving on:
"If it weren't for the unions there would be no child labor laws, no 40 hr. work week or overtime pay. No vacations, No health insurance, and no safety regulations. The Unions are the only thing that has kept America from being like China or any other developing country where the laborers are shamelessly exploited."

I agree...but that time is in the past. Union's, as I said, served their purpose and now are simply one of the biggest threats to our economic system. They mutate the true costs of production, which in turn mutates the true cost to consumers. This creates a situation where goods cost FAR more than they should and this has significantly weakened the economic strength of non-union employees who earn realistic wages.

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