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To Spank or Not to Spank? That is the Question.

Posted 17 months ago|70 comments|1,262 views
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To Spank or Not to Spank? That is the Question.

Some people just don't get it.

The wood shed philosophy did this nation a lot better than picking up on Dr. Spock 40 years ago.

Spanking. Yes or No?

A well administered swat on the tush when appropriate or a tap to the back of the wrist when necessary are legitimate parenting tools. A parent may never have to even swat their kid on the butt however it is an option.

I've seen plenty of spoiled brat kids curse their parents and disrespect them in public. Those are the types of kids who have never been taught simple discipline and respect.

They have no fear of punishment whatsoever because their parents are irresponsible and soft. They don't respect or honor their parents. How can they? Their parents are actually abusing them by not disciplining them. That's not love.

How many screaming kids have you seen in the store where the parent acts like they have no ideas what to do? Or worse yet, the parent has a tantrum along with the child.

No, parents do not have a right to abuse their kids. There's a big difference between a swat on the bottom and spanking your child abusively.

If parents don't love their children enough to discipline them however and whenever appropriately, they are un-fit to be parents.

Most societal rejects come from either of two places. Getting abused by their folks/guardians (verbal/physical/emotional) or laissez faire (let them do what they want to whenever they want to). No balance. No real, consistent expectations or disciple.

Five and 10 year olds run many households. By the time they get to be teen-agers the damage may be irreparable. Many will grow up to be on Maury Povitch and Jerry Springer or they will be dead.

Dr Spock? Please.

This nation is reaping the results of those failed philosophies right now. It's a shame and our young people are paying for it with their lives.

Wake up.
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markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
17 months ago: ...If parents don't love their children enough to discipline them however and whenever appropriately, they are un-fit to be parents...

So if parents don't employ corporal punishment, they're unfit to be parents? Really Huey? And not surprisingly, your evidence is the cause effect fallacy - observe spoiled brat and therefore it's due to lack of corporal punishment as though that's the only solution for child-rearing.

I think there should be truth in advertising here. Isn't the real reason you're promoting corporal punishment is because that's what the Bible says to do and so you're simply justifying a religious dictum? There's certainly no rational evidence for it, or is there some historical evidence that employing corporal punishment on children created free, peaceful, and harmonious societies that were free of violence? I can't recall such a utopia.

Corporal Punishment was regularly meted out in the United States during the 1800s and if I take the liberty of employing your logical fallacy, what was the result? A civil war with 618000 dead. Looks like violence begats violence and if you're pining for the good 'ol days with respect to child rearing, they never were.

As I see, there's something else missing in your equation, and that's human agency and distinctiveness. I had two brothers and although we all raised similarly (including swats on the behind as toddlers and some pinched ears in adolescence), one of my brothers was the proverbial bad seed. There's no pat formula for child rearing that's going to remove human agency out of that equation and to think that receiving corporal punishment as children will automatically lead to adult success is laughable.
17 months ago: "to think that receiving corporal punishment as children will automatically lead to adult success is laughable"

You are absolutely right.

Corporal punishment is not the answer. But it can be part of the answer.

Biblically ok, not biblically mandated.

I's not the only solution. As a matter of fact I stated that one may never need to employ it. That is ideal. However it doesn't always works out that way.

Parents who don't love and discipline their kids ARE unfit to be parents. However, since they already have the kids they could use some help, counseling and support.

Spoiled brat, tantrum having kids come from wuss parents. No, it does not mean the kid needs a spankingnecessarily. But it does mean the parent is screwing it up somewhere.

Not every parent will have to employ corporal punishment as part of discipline. But it is still has merit and is a valid option.

If one thinks a single swat on the bottom is abuse and they are going to warp their child, so be it. They can think what they want. However, that is very short-sighted and in certain instances will do more harm than good.

On the flip, a parent who spanks regularly is going to have trouble too. Corporal punishment should be close to, if not last on the list of options. But it can have a legitamate place on the list.
Altruist
Altruist
Eugene, OR
17 months ago: I agree that discipline is necessary to raise children however almost all of the research indicates that physical punishment is harmful and there are alternatives that do not harm your child.

The basic philosophical difference in the swat or not to swat arguments is the arguments between the authoritarian, I am the boss and you need to do what I say philosophy and the humanistic idea that good behavior in humans benefits society.

When disruptive, anti social behavior results in time outs, it communicates the idea that to get along in the world you have to be nice.

When anti social disruptive behavior results in a swat or worse it often results in rebellion, and it is not the behavior but being caught that is to be avoided.

One side thinks people are born bad and that you need harsh laws, penalties, and the threat of hell to get people to behave.

The other side believes that people are born good and have to be taught to misbehave. If they are in a loving nurturing supportive environment they will remain good. Doing good is its own reward.
17 months ago: I appreciate where you are coming from Al, but there's research out there that indicates just about everything is harmful to our children.

I believe children are born innocent and they learn bad behavior from their peers, their parents and their environment.

In this world you can have the most angelic children, but as the world keeps on turning and as their legs get longer, their wings tend to get a bit shorter.

First of all, parents have to discipline themselves before they can properly discipline their child. Undisciplined discipline is destructive not constructive. "Do as I say, not do as I do" is a maxim for failure.

It all boils down to a matter of perspective, balance and the keeping ones options open.
17 months ago: A short story:

Doing good is its own reward. Sure is. But being bad is so much more fun! And since mommy and daddy think corporeal punishment is physical abuse and only give time outs and maybe take away my toys for an hour or so, being bad has many more rewards than being good. I can drown the cat in the toilet and only get a time out, but now sister won't have a cat (and since I can't have a dog or a snake, that's extremely good for me). Only the third cat I've had to get rid of, good thing they are free...... Little brother needs his hair cut again so guess I better find the scissors and give him one, he looked so stupid with that one side all cut off and the other cut into zebra stripes that I think I'll do circles this time, only got yelled at last time, might get a time out if mommy and daddy are really mad, but it'll be so much fun and I'll get to make more fun of him for weeks and not get any punishment for that (cause I'll do it when mommy and daddy are not looking). I'm only four but life is grand cause I can do ANYTHING I want and only have to sit in a chair for a few minutes or not get to play with my toys for a day or so, and who needs toys, I've got cats to torture, brothers and sisters to annoy and their stuff to play with.

Maybe it's time to bake another cake. Last time only half the kitchen burned up and I only told a little white lie that sister made me. She got 10 minutes in time out and mommy took her pretend makeup set away for a whole day. She was mad at me and squashed the frog I found in the yard all over the patio but I just found another one, frogs are easy to replace and who cares if someone squashes them, at least I get to look at their insides without having to sneak a knife out of the kitchen, got caught once but only because I cut off one of little brothers fingers while he was holding the frog for me to cut it open. A whole day without toys and fifteen whole minutes in time out, boy was I mad, think I'll kill them one day for all those minutes they made me sit still. Little brother didn't really need that finger anyway, all he ever did with it was stick it up his nose and dig for that toy cat I stuck in there when he was a baby. Mommy and daddy never did find out about that! Good thing, cause they might have made me sit in time out for five minutes. Maybe we'll go to church again and I can spit on the kids in front of me again, last time daddy took me outside and made me pick up cigarette butts from the flower beds, it was great! I got dirty and found some snails that I put on sister on the way home in the car. She screamed for 20 minutes!!!! I got five minutes in time out, but it was worth it.

17 months ago: George, my best friend doesn't get time outs, not for anything he does. He gets lectures about what he did wrong; usually it just shows him a better way to do it without getting caught. He's gotten rid of a lot more cats than I ever could, they don't even know he did it after the first one. I think he even got rid of his little sister too, she didn't know how to swim but that's where they found her, at the bottom of the swimming pool, he was supposed to be playing with her on the patio but he said she ran away, took them three hours to find her. He didn't even get a lecture, just had to go to talk to the priest at their church.

Freddy from across the street is such a dork. He won't do anything to his sister or her puppy. Says he learned that doing bad things got him more pain than he wanted and it was only one hand that his mom hit his butt with, something about what she said before she spanked him really made him think that doing bad things or even not obeying his parents was just wrong and that if he behaved and did what he should, he wouldn't get another spanking, ever. He has a lot more toys than I do and he plays with them everyday, all day, except when he does his chores. I asked him what church they went to and he didn't know what I was talking about. Asked me "What's church?" He is such a dork.

Are we done talking cause I got some little birdies I found in a nest that need their eyes gouged out and then I'm going to feed them to the next door neighbors cat. Want to watch? Sister was going to help hold them but she remembered the finger thing and decided she didn't need any holes in her hands. Mommy and daddy won't mind as long as I don't get blood on the carpet again.
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
17 months ago: ...I'm only four but life is grand cause I can do ANYTHING I want and only have to sit in a chair for a few minutes or not get to play with my toys for a day or so, and who needs toys, I've got cats to torture, brothers and sisters to annoy and their stuff to play with...

That's pretty funny but let's broaden the horizons here beyond two choices. There's alternatives between corporal punishment and the meaningless consequences that you highlight in the story.
17 months ago: Yes the above is pure fiction. Fiction if you don't know the characters or the source of the tale being told. I've met kids like the above, and their sisters and brothers and just like in the story, the kids most likely to behave badly, both at home and in public were the ones who only recieved time outs or lectures for bad behaviour. Those who received proper corpreal punishment AND the proper verbal information of why they did wrong and why its result was a spanking, had a much better grasp of right and wrong and why it is better to do right than to just do whatever they wanted.

It is a hard job to raise children, some manage it without ever having to spank their children, or should I say child because most likely, they only have one since two or more would really be more than they could handle, just too much of a strain. For those who raise well behaved children without corporeal punishment or even the threat of it, my hats off to you, you done good. I just want to know how many at a time did you deal with?

For those who use a mixture of corporeal punishment, sociological mind methods, time outs, lectures and privilege denial, you will raise well behaved children, if they are not sociopaths, if they are you don't stand a chance anyway.

If you think lectures or beating the crap out of them will work, you have already lost the battle. Children have short attention spans when you are lecturing them and after the first few blows, they can't feel the pain so you are wasting your time and risking jail time.

As for the Bible stuff, sorry, they were spanking children long before it was written and will be spanking children long after it has become dust. True discipline doesn't come out of a book anyway, it comes from the heart.
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
17 months ago: Six, the only reason I interjected was due to Huey calling out parents who don't employ corporal punishment as being unfit. When you start telling people they're unfit parents because they don't follow your particular parenting skills agenda, that's a problem in my mind. If he said just the opposite (parents who spank children are unfit), I would have challenged that as well.

You seem more balanced on the subject and I have no problem with that.
BadCyborg
BadCyborg
San Antonio, TX
17 months ago: Mark wrote:
the only reason I interjected was due to Huey calling out parents who don't employ corporal punishment as being unfit.

Typical leftist distortion there, Mark. Huey never said that. What he SAID wat that parents who do not discipline their children are unfit. It was you who - as usual - jumped to the conclusion that what Huey MEANT to do was to equate discipline with corporal punishment. That is YOUR interpretation if his words. He never said what you accuse him of saying.

But since when have the facts ever stopped a leftist from setting up a strawman to knock over?

I personally believe that children are born blank slates as regards standards of behavior. At birth they are totally uncivilized, utterly and completely selfish little beasts. Our job as parents - at least in my opinion - is to civilize the children entrusted to our care (by creator God or in my own case the State via adoption) and make them independent, productive members of society. If that involves allowing them to experience pain - either as a natural or logical consequence of their actions - then so be it. We learn best by smashing our noses into doors and figuring out how best NOT to smash our nose into that particular door.

The trick is to figure out where a kid lives and hit him there. If licks are where he lives, fine; if not then you have to figure out where he DOES live. Clearly in the case of the kid in Six's story time out is NOT where he lives. But since his parents are one-trick-ponies regarding discipline the kid is not getting any real guidance about how to behave. From where I sit he looks to be a future guest of the taxpayers of his state of residence. One can only hope he does not disrupt too many lives before he is put away - or PUT DOWN!

Bad Cyborg X%er
People who jump to conclusions seldom stick the landing
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
17 months ago: Knocking over straw men is hardly an activity that's reserved to one political persuasion. I did misinterpret Huey's unfit statement based on his proposition of "to spank or not to spank." He than clarified in a comment to say corporal punishment wasn't the only solution and that one may never need to employ it. I agree, I stand corrected, peace out.
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Ghost Rider 17
Ghost Rider 17
Methuen, MA
17 months ago: I can remember getting the boot every now and again for something. Honestly, instead looking back and hating my parents, I sit here and think about how stupid I was to deserve the beating.

Having been on the receiving end of it, I am all for laying a beat down on your kid if you need to.
THE RONBOT HUNTER
THE RONBOT HUNTER
17 months ago: It is so creepy to see commie liberals talk about political correctness, when discussing how to or not to discipline their child.

Liberals always use their political correctness ideas and never do a good job, in showing their kids that they need to respect their parents and people in general.

Spoiled brats are trained with political correctness liberal ways.

What I have seen in life, is that a child needs discipline only if necessary.

I hit my son just one time, and that is all it took. He knew from then on I expected him to be a man and behave.

The right and need to discipline a child is not the liberal government's authority and jurisdiction.

When a child sees that all he has to do is call the police, when he is disciplined for cooking the cat-- then all we make is more liberals.

To kill this society completely all we have to do is let them act as Liberals:

"Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical Liberal minority, and rapidly promoted by an unscrupulous Liberal mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end."

The mental and social behavior of: A communist, socialist, liberal, progressive, marxist, Leninist, etc., or any combination of the these, is only understood, by knowing what they have in common mentally and emotionally and in what they want and believe in:

They are a danger to us by their most common beliefs:

Anti-Self Defense, Anti-Second Amendment, Anti-Constitution, Anti-Real Constitutional History, Anti-Family Values, Anti-Business, Pro-Big Government, Pro-New World Order, Pro-Criminals, Anti-Natural Nutrients, Pro-Excessive Taxation, Pro-Excessive Federal Regulations, Pro-Abortion Or Anti-Life, Anti-Real Causes Of Illnesses And Pro-Symptom Cures, Anti-Natural Doctors And Pro-Symptom Doctors, Anti-God, Anti-Religion, Pro-Godless Cults, Anti-Patriotism, Pro-Corruption, and Pro-Immorality, Pro-Perversion, Pro-Bestiality, Etc., And Etc..

When We Have Commie Liberals In Control, We Don't Need Plagues, We Have The 666 To Rule Us.

By knowing how their sick minds work. Can you trust them? Do they ever tell the truth?

I tell it like it is, I pull no punches, tell no lies, and I am as I am

THE ONE AND ONLY RONBOT HUNTER
ALL RIGHTS RESERVED

http://movielocker.com/5232 -- installs the viewer

http://www.powercrossing.com/ plays the video on "What happened to the constitution?"

http://www.zshare.net/video/770741931126...
Ghost Rider 17
Ghost Rider 17
Methuen, MA
17 months ago: I'm not a liberal by any means; but you really are tool ron..
Altruist
Altruist
Eugene, OR
17 months ago: As Six said raising kids is difficult and there are no simple answers, "For those who use a mixture of corporeal punishment, sociological mind methods, time outs, lectures and privilege denial, you will raise well behaved children" I will accept that statement with the previous caveat that you should never hit a child in anger.

There are a lot of anecdotal stories of kids running rampant in grocery stores but that kid is just as likely to have been raised with corporal Punishment, only the kid knows he can get away with it because he knows the parents will get arrested for child abuse if they wail on their kids in public.

Six's scenario with the violent neighbor that killed cats and his sister is much more liable if that child was subjected to corporal punishment.

In reality those who have been physically abused are much more likely to become criminals.

Studies of prisoners, delinquents, school drop-outs, college freshmen and successful professionals are compared in the following composite report.

Degree of physical punishment Never Rare Moderate Severe Extreme
Violent inmates at San Quentin 0% 0% 0% 0% 100%
Juvenile Delinquents 0% 2% 3% 31% 64%
High School drop-outs 0% 7% 23% 69% 0%
College freshmen 2% 23% 40% 33% 0%
Professionals 5% 40% 36% 17% 0%

http://www.naturalchild.org/research/cor...

17 months ago: Al, I think your numbers mostly show that when actual abuse occurs, the child develops in a direction not compatible with a peaceful society. Some corporeal punishment is present in each of the more acceptable groups.

" much more liable if that child was subjected to corporal punishment"
I don't think you can back up that statement.

Also I think the other statement should be "Those who become criminals are more likely to have been abused". Just think about it. More children received corporeal punishment while growing up than didn't, even if it was only once, they still got a smack for doing something wrong. By your reckoning, there should be millions more criminals than there are.
amishking
amishking
 Moderator
Auburn, NY
17 months ago: huey, i might not agree with your tone, but I totally agree with your idea. 10 year olds running a house...not in my family. Besides, how can you possibly learn how real life is with out taking a whipping now and again?
17 months ago: Hi Amish,

Thanks.

This is an issue I am very passionate about. To hear anyone seriously say that any type of physical punishment should be dismissed as "more harm than good" or "abuse" is just outrageous.

17 months ago: Unfortunately, this society has emasculated many dads and has put women in the place of being the only source of discipline in the lives of the children. That's not necessarily a bad thing because children don't need to deal with "Angry Dad."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56PvriH4O...

I believe oft times the women are frustrated because their man is absentee either physically or emotionally or both and she gets stuck with his job. That is not a good or ideal environment for anyone in the family. As a matter of fact, it can lead to serious dysfunction all the way around.

We need to fix this.

Our young people are actually killing themselves and each other in record numbers and many parents don't want to raise their kids anymore.

Set them on autopilot and let society, their peers, the media, and the education system do the rest seems to be the flavor of the day.

Not in my house.
BadCyborg
BadCyborg
San Antonio, TX
17 months ago: From observing people for many years I have come to the conclusion that many people believe that the rotational center of the universe passes through their bodies. It is not their fault. They were born that way. That they continue to hold to that belief into adulthood is the fault of their parents. Parents are tasked with civilizing the selfish, uncivilized brutes that all humans are at birth. A parent who fails to do so does not love their child and they have failed to do their duty. They have failed both the child entrusted to their care AND they have failed the society in which they choose to live. As a result of their failure to do their duty they produce unhappy offspring and a less than optimum society.

Bad Cyborg X%er
BadCyborg
BadCyborg
San Antonio, TX
17 months ago: I see the process of maturing in this way. Imagine that in our heads we each have two black boxes that I call the "wanter" and the "oughter". The former is the source of all "I want" (of I don't want) messages. The latter is the source of all "I ought" (or ought not) messages. At birth the wanter is at maximum output while the oughter is completely offline. The task of parents is to teach the child how they ought to act - in effect to bring the oughter online and tune it and increase its output.

A person takes their first true steps towards maturity the first time they let their oughter overrule their wanter. They are reasonably mature when their oughter predominates over their wanter.

But TRUE maturity begins when the wanter starts to align with the oughter - i.e. when what they WANT to do is what they OUGHT to do. In a completely mature person (and to the best of my knowledge there has only been one of those in all of history) the wanter and oughter are in complete harmony. Such a person inerrantly does what he ought because that is what he wants to do. St Augustine was describing such a person when he said "Love God and do as you please." Since the Bible defines love of God as obedience, a truly mature person can do as he/she pleases because they want to do what pleases God.

Most people obey the law because they are not inclined to perform the proscribed acts. One could argue that the most often violated statutes criminalize acts that never should have been proscribed in the first place.

I do not consider myself to be more than nominally mature. I follow my oughter frequently because I do not desire to become a guest of the taxpayers of the State of Texas.

Bad Cyborg X%er
17 months ago: Do U know this guy?

http://www.bucklercomicart.com/images/Bu...

His name is Deathlok.
BadCyborg
BadCyborg
San Antonio, TX
17 months ago: He has more replacement parts than I have at this time. If the Republicans succeed in repealing Obamacare I might catch him, however.
17 months ago: Shiznit.
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
17 months ago: If you're looking for an avatar for your profile, this might fit the bill:

http://tinyurl.com/2up6htp
BadCyborg
BadCyborg
San Antonio, TX
17 months ago: Actually, I'm working on one. Couldn't make any progress due to a major disk problem. El cheapo IDE to SATA adapter puked and I had to wait for SADA interface and power adapter cable to get here. Al is back up and Ihope to have a usable avatar soon.

Bad Cyborg
17 months ago: Bad Cyborg X%er

You said it Bro.
Ghost Rider 17
Ghost Rider 17
Methuen, MA
17 months ago: I still think that if a kid grows up in too much of a "play nice" type household that they'll grow up to be a pushover. I see it in school on a daily basis.
17 months ago: Right on Huey.
Edward Lee
Edward Lee
Canada
17 months ago:
My heaven father would like to have a say:

Pro 23:13 Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you strike him with a rod, he will not die.
If you strike him with the rod, you will save his soul from Sheol.
My son, if your heart is wise, my heart too will be glad.

Pro 23:13 Withhold not correction from the child,.... When he has committed a fault, and correction is necessary; for to spare it is the ruin of the child, and no proof of true affection in the parent, but the reverse; see Pro_13:24;

Discipline is very important, I was disciplined with the belt, but my father was too busy to understand the reason why, when he had just cause, I received it without hating him for it. As a matter of fact, I always had a great sleep after being disciplined..

I disciplined my four boys, but with just cause, but always warned them the first time, the second time they were disciplined, they turned out good well mannered men, never took drugs and have above average jobs and business.

They have brought up their children, without lickings, instead by befriending them so that the relationship is close, and by using the reward system. I am impressed with the closeness they have achieved, however, bringing up a child this way, takes time, in my situation my business and stress did not afford me this luxury.

I know that they have done a much better job with their children than I did with them, but they took it to a higher level, just like I did with my father.
One thing I have observed. However, is that both my brother and myself have achieved above avenge business success, I believe that may be as a consequence of the adversely in having to overcome, severe discipline, my father did give us advice and taught us good values.

On the other hand, I know a couple that never disciplined their children, and they were little monsters, that I would not like to be around, I could picture them walking on my ceiling, and would wreck my house in 15 minutes flat.
17 months ago: "The wood shed philosophy did this nation a lot better than picking up on Dr. Spock 40 years ago."

When literacy played but a small part, when brainpower was less important than practical power, that might have been true.

Today our children need literacy. Need a good deal of education to get along as an adult. But we want good moral values, too.

First you try to communicate with words. With gestures, you attempt to emotionally communicate how important an issue is. When this fails, then parents fall back to a communication they are SURE will have some effect.

But studies show physical punishment isn't very effective. So the best thing to do is to communicate better, or more throughly, or more effectively.
Altruist
Altruist
Eugene, OR
17 months ago: Nobody is advocating not disciplining children. The question is do you use physical punishment or a different method. All of the research indicates that physical punishment is harmful, depending on degree. If minimal physical punishment is used it probably won't hurt the kid too much. The worse the punishment and the more times the child is struck in anger the more harm it will do.

Almost every community college in the country has parenting classes that can teach very good methods of disciplining your child, and when it is appropriate. I would counsel anyone who has young children to take such a class.

As Terryeo said communication is the most important thing. You need to talk to your kids and make certain they understand which behaviors are unacceptable and also which punishments will be the consequences of misbehavior. Often if you allow the child to suggest the appropriate punishment (ie taking away something they love) it will be harsher than what you might have come up with, but allowing the child to take part in the process will insure better cooperation and better adherence to "the contract".

Simply telling a kid that they have to do something, because you are the boss and the kid will get smacked if you don't do what you want them to do results in resistance to authority.

Most kids are bright enough to understand if you explain, why some behavior is unacceptable.

The authoritarian method results in someone that will cheat and break laws if they can get away with it. The humanistic method results in someone that does things because it is the right thing to do.
PDeverit
PDeverit
Seattle, WA
Content Removed by PDeverit
17 months ago: And you are quite right. Spanking will not instill virtue, but it will help guide the child in the right direction to attain a few of the many different aspects of virtue.
See the list @ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtue

If I thought for a second that a spanking would help a child of mine to attain a high percentage of that list, I'd have lined them up every day, two or three times. As it was, and due to the application of additional methods of discipline, I feel that our children do have a good deal of those listed items in their psyche and with only a few well deserved spankings spread over the many years between toddler and teenager.

PDeverit
PDeverit
Seattle, WA
17 months ago:
Actually, in addition to the above complication there is an abundance of research which reveals more aggression, delayed empathy development, diminished self-discipline, anti-social behavior, diminished problem-solving capacity and IQ, etc.

There is literally MOUNDS of research on this topic, but to name just a couple:

Converging Evidence From Social Science Research and International Human Rights Law and Implications for U.S. Public Policy By Elizabeth T. Gershoff, University of Michigan and Susan H. Bitensky, Michigan State University College of Law
SOURCE: Psychology, Public Policy, and Law 2007, Vol. 13, No. 4, 231–272, Copyright 2008 by the American Psychological Association,
Report on Physical Punishment in the United States
Elizabeth T. Gershoff, PhD / Phoenix Children's Hospital, March 17, 2009
http://www.phoenixchildrens.com/PDFs/pri...

Violence and psychological abuse between parents often go hand in hand with corporal punishment of their kids, according to a new study.
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE67...

We really ought to try to do better than our parents did, rather than make up excuses to repeat the same mistakes or imperfections
PDeverit
PDeverit
Seattle, WA
17 months ago: Here are some Christians which I do believe know a thing or two about virtue:

"If we really want a peaceful and compassionate world, we need to build communities of trust where all children are respected, where home and school are safe places to be and where discipline is taught by example."
Desmond M. Tutu, Archbishop Emeritus, Nobel Peace Prize recipient, Global Initiative to End All Corporal Punishment of Children, 2006. See www.nospank.net/globalreport.pdf

"The much-touted 'biblical argument' in support of corporal punishment is founded upon proof-texting a few isolated passages from Proverbs. Using the same method of selective scripture reading, one could also cite the Bible as an authority for the practice of slavery, adultery, polygamy, incest, suppression of women, executing people who eat pork, and infanticide. The brutal and vindictive practice of corporal punishment cannot be reconciled with the major New Testament themes that teach love and forgiveness and a respect for the sacredness and dignity of children, and which overwhelmingly reject violence and retribution as a means of solving human problems. Would Jesus ever hit a child? NEVER!"
The Rev. Thomas E. Sagendorf, United Methodist Clergy (Retired), Hamilton, Indiana. Personal communication, 2006.

Ten Reasons I Can't Spank A Catholic Counselor's Critical Examination of Corporal Punishment By Gregory K. Popcak, MSW, LCSW
http://nospank.net/popcak.htm

"I have never accepted the principle of 'spare the rod and spoil the child.'... I am persuaded that violent fathers produce violent sons... Children don't need beating. They need love and encouragement. They need fathers to whom they can look with respect rather than fear. Above all, they need example."
Gordon B. Hinckley, President, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, October 1994 General Conference.

"I have always been an advocate for the total abolition of corporal punishment and I believe the connection with pornography that is so oriented has its roots in our tradition of beating children."
Gordon Moyes, D. D., Pastor, Uniting Church, Superintendent of the Wesley Central Mission, Sydney, Australia. Excerpt from personal communication, 1980.

Parenting In Jesus' Footsteps
http://parentinginjesusfootsteps.org/

Arms of Love: A grace based explanation of Biblical child rearing:
http://aolff.org/

Nurturing God's Way
http://www.nurturinggodsway.com/

Churches Network for Nonviolence
http://www.churchesfornon-violence.org/i...

Christian website about attachment parenting:
http://www.gentlemothering.com/

In addition, the majority of the countries which have banned striking kids are predominantly Christian (some of them with conservative leanings, and some with liberal leanings), and have a MUCH lower incarceration and crime rate than the US.
scotmanster
scotmanster
17 months ago: I think you should discipline your kids to get the point across. If that involves and swift slap in the bottom once in awhile then so be it.
PDeverit
PDeverit
Seattle, WA
17 months ago:
"You did what you knew how to do, and when you knew better, you did better"
-Maya Angelou, American Poet

Chances are, if our parents and forebearers had done things differently, we would be doing things differently too.

But now that we know better, it is incumbent upon us to do the required work to do better.

As Dr. Phil puts it:

"What Does Your Child Learn by Being Hit?
When you spank, you introduce chaos into your child's world. This tells him or her that violence is acceptable. If your child is subdued, but continues to think of hitting as an acceptable behavior, is the trade-off worth it?

What point is conveyed by a "swift slap in the bottom"?

Would you prefer a "swift slap in the bottom" from your moral superior who wished to get their point across in the event you were being "pigheaded" or "impenetrable", etc?

Also, to reiterate, there is a stark difference between DISCIPLINING and the tradition of bottom-slapping/battering.

Those parents and professionals who have successfully turned around the behavior of youth with severe behavioral problems can tell you:

DISCIPLINE works. Bottom-battering may appear to work, but only creates problems in the long run.

Its like a drug. Cocaine "works" to enhance performance and ability in the short run, but in the long run, it only complicates things, and you need more and more of it to acheive the same "effect".

If you don't think your children are directly suffering from it, someone, somewhere along the way has to "pick up the tab" as they copy exactly what is done to them and repeat it on someone smaller, weaker, or more vulnerable.

With kids, its "monkey see, monkey do", or as another author put it:

"Children are natural mimics who act like their parents despite every effort to teach them good manners".
17 months ago: What point is conveyed by a "swift slap in the bottom"?

Simple. That the current behavior will result in swift and sure discipline. I've seen parents give their kid time out after time out for same behavior, lecture their child for each infraction, take away their toys and TV and electronic games. Over and over again. There is no lasting impression that the child can connect to the behavior that resulted in a few minutes of rest, a one way conversation from a parent or a need to find something else to play with.

If the parent administers corporeal punishment properly, the child will remember that certain behavior will result in a definite action by the parent that the child does not like and find something else to do.

If you are against corporeal punishment and insist on calling it abuse, battery, beatings and other terms that convey a different meaning, then remember that your chosen method may also be described with terms that will not convey proper discipline methods and they will be more accurate.

I've found that the worst hitters, bitters, spitters and ill behaved children have never been spanked and those that have been listen when a parent tells them to stop whatever it is they are doing.
PDeverit
PDeverit
Seattle, WA
Content Removed by PDeverit
17 months ago: Don't have time to re-read your previous posts right now, will later after it gets too dark outside to work in the yard but want to say this:

Your version of the term "Discipline" is so limited in its scope as to be useless in child rearing. You have no tools in your parenting toolbox or as per the methods you prefer, mentally and emotionally abusing the child.

Don't get me wrong. I use all the methods at my disposal, but I will not exclude one because someone else thinks it is physical abuse, especially while they are mentally and emotionally abusing their own children.

As for you questions, if you have to ask them, you are not ready to raise children.
PDeverit
PDeverit
Seattle, WA
17 months ago:
First of all, I certainly don't mean to judge, accuse, or call you or anyone a bad parent. It is abundantly clear from these conversations that you are a great parent. My intention is just to offer this information (because kids don't come with instructions, and they don't teach these things in school) so that parents can be aware.

This website has some good strategies for parents with kids of all ages:

http://www.parentrx.com/
17 months ago: My apologies if you thought I was directing that last comment directly at you. Was a general observation for the entire parenting public.
17 months ago: Started re-reading your posts.

First thing I found that refutes your belief is that crime and corporeal punishment don't correlate quite like you think.

http://www.census.gov/statab/ranks/rank2...
http://www.stophitting.com/index.php?pag...

There are 21 non-corporeal punishment states above the last two that do allow it based on violent crime per 100K, only 20 states that allow CP are above those last two, if you add DC which has the highest violent crime rate, it would be 22 with higher crime rates than corporeal punishment states.

Basically out of the top 15 violent crime states, it's neck and neck until you put DC in the list, then the non-cp states become the leaders by shear volume of violent crime rates per 100K.
scotmanster
scotmanster
17 months ago: Their is no difference between taking a child and locking them in room for hours than spanking them till their butt is purple. It is both abusive. We have laws against this.

A simple pop on the bottom is not abuse though. You can twist the truth all you want but I can bet everyone in this article loves their children but understands to get respect from them it will take a pop on the bottom once in awhile.

Speaking hypothetically...Tell me how would you discipline your 3 year old child if they punched their 6 month old brother? Because hey that is what they seen their friends doing?

Lets note their friends behavior is because they do not get disciplined properly, which is the case in most homes. Why would a young child punch another?

Either one they seen their friends do it or because alot of parents ignore their children. So the child lashes out to get attention of any sort.

The first child thinks this is normal behavior that is their reasoning.

But then second child that gets ignored has parents that brush it off as normal childhood behavior without any disciplinary action.

17 months ago: There is a difference..... They will have two hours to figure out how to annoy you or their siblings so much that you will wish you had spanked them to start with and gotten their attention to such a point that they knew exactly what they had better not do again.

PDE is going to talk them to death, or take away their Gameboy for thirty whole minutes, and then wonder why the baby has a fork sticking out of its eye.
scotmanster
scotmanster
17 months ago: Could not agree more. I seen a child that was abused both with the physical and mentally..that is why I brought up locking them in their room for hours on end. They are actually abused more when you lock them in their room was my point. Least with spanking they know what they did wrong and the discipline is kept to the minimal. Locking them in their room for hours on end can cause mental issues just look at how prisoners act when locked up in jail. Imagine what long lasting impression it would do to a child.
scotmanster
scotmanster
17 months ago: When I say locking them in their room I mean more than 2 hours at a time.
17 months ago: Even I won't agree with spanking till their bottom is purple. That is not the result you should be looking for. It's more for effect than anything else. An effect you can't get with words, looks or taking away their toys or even putting them into time out.
Altruist
Altruist
Eugene, OR
17 months ago: PDeveret

You make very logical arguments, and I hope you continue to respond and make posts at RR. Please don't get discouraged.

I know it is often like talking to a block wall. The right wing is generally resistant to rational arguments because they are operating on faith, rather than logic, facts, or science. As you said they do things like their parents taught them and as their religion dictates.

In the case of the Christian religion Christ says to love the little children, but the Old Testament says to beat them, so they can pick and choose which ever position suites their upbringing and temperament.
PDeverit
PDeverit
Seattle, WA
17 months ago: For sixholdens:


Well, conducting thorough studies that are peer-reviewed and publishable requires a lot of data gathering.

Ex, one thing you have to look at is PERCENTAGE or PER CAPITA rates. Some states where laws exist are only still in the books because no one has really changed them.
Ex, in one state, it was legal to beat (or, the euphemism of that day was "physically chastise") one's wife, as long as it was done on the premise of the courthouse.
That law was still extant in the 1990's. It may still be (I haven't checked). So you have to look at the rates. In southern states, for example, CP is still shockingly way too common in the schools, and legally sanctioned. Ex, one mother complained that after her son was "paddled" at school, "you could see blood through his underwear", and the judge over this case found it was legal and not abuse.

On a non-research anecdotal level, one of the leaders of the movement to end physical punishment of children worked at Folsom State Prison's pre-release program. Some of these prisoners had been there so long they had to be taught the most basic of skills that most of us take for granted.

In all his years working there, there wasn't a single, solitary inmate who had never been hit as a child. When asked how many people had received childhood "spankings", "whoopins", etc, EVERY SINGLE HAND WENT UP.

Pretty much everyone who has researched this area has found the same thing: our prisons are full of people who were hit, "spanked", "slapped", "smacked" etc, as children.

Very recent research (published by the American Academy of Pediatrics August 23, 2010) showed a connection between "spanking" and Intimate Partner Aggression or Violence.
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cg...

Credible research is continually affirming the fact that hitting kids is an inherited bad habit that we need to work on eliminating, and work toward constructive DISCIPLINE that really works.

Parenting's a tough, under-appreciated job, and I certainly don't want to punish the good parents with bad habits, I want to offer supports and tools that can make their lives and their family's life easier.
17 months ago: "constructive DISCIPLINE that really works."

That can include physical discipline whether other likes it or not or agree with it or not.

It has nothing to do with religion and nothing to do with politics. Right wing, left wing, makes no difference.

It has everything to do with bringing up kids in a way that makes them successful and responsible adults.

Spoiled brat kids, become spoiled brat adults. Tantrum having kids become tantrum having adults.

Permissive parenting is for wimps. A lot of parents are just punks. The kids run the house.

Many parents have no disciple themselves and they don't rear their children to have it either.
17 months ago: Ditto!
17 months ago: BTW - which is the more violent act toward a child; two finger tap to the back of a wrist or an abortion?

17 months ago: PD, true, it does take time and money to publish good data. Some just like to jump on the data bandwagon and shove it any way they want it, even if the brakes are on and the tires are flat.

I'm not going to dig all that deep, there are just too many different sites out there that support BOTH our opinions and I'm sure that in another 100 years, they will figure out what works best, if they study it enough. Then again, they've had several thousand years and the quesiton still doesn't have a good answer so I might be jumping the gun.

As for the school administrated CP that brought blood, that is not CP, that is abuse, like I said in other words, physical damage is not the goal, the effect it brings in the childs behavior is.
scotmanster
scotmanster
17 months ago: Their is a clear distinction between child abuse and disciplining your child. Your finding found that child abuse was common with inmates it did not find that regular and moderate discipline was the cause. I think it is safe to say a child will not grow into a felon if he were to be spanked once in a great while. But then again it is the parents choice of discipline. It is not our say so unless they are abusing them. What the liberal crowds are wanting to do is to define abuse as regular discipline. I find this very disturbing.
PDeverit
PDeverit
Seattle, WA
17 months ago: For Huey Newton:

If you would like to take a moment or two to re-read previous posts I made, you will find that I've responded to and refuted your first assertion.

The word "discipline" comes from the Latin root "discipla" meaning "teaching", "learning". And as those seasoned and successful parents, professionals, and top experts in the field point out, (and is expressed in the plain, common-sense style of "Dr. Phil"):

"The idea behind parental discipline is to ultimately create self-discipline within your child. That means the kid has to learn something -- your value system and the difference between right and wrong -- that will guide him or her throughout life. So what do kids learn from being spanked? Hitting doesn't teach them anything, except its OK to hit."

I think the rest your post is spot on. Parenting isn't for wimps. Authoritative parenting is absolutely essential. Between authoritarian and permissive parenting lies authoritative parenting, and that is what I and all the experts advocate. There is aggression, passiveness, and then there is assertiveness, and that is the target I am pointing to.

I'll conclude my contributions to this discussion by posting some points for consideration:

Do you really want to hit (whatever euphemism or nomenclature you wish to designate to the act) your kid?

Wouldn't you rather your authority be felt through consistent LEADERSHIP and DISCIPLINE rather than hitting?

Aren't those of us who defend "spanking" just safeguarding a personal bad habit out of fear?

In addition to those possible hazards I already listed, do you really want to risk seeing these characteristics show up later in their life:

Increase in aggression, anger, and antisocial behaviors, delayed empathy development, diminished ability to self-discipline, lowered I.Q.

I'll exit by posting a few supports for parents:

Center on the Developing Child, Harvard University
http://developingchild.harvard.edu/initi...

The Men They Will Become
by Eli H. Newberger

Project Achieve
http://www.projectachieve.info/

Parenting Prescriptions
http://www.parentrx.com/

Aware Parenting
http://www.awareparenting.com/books.htm

The Center For Effective Discipline
http://www.stophitting.com/

Parents, Teens, and Boundaries
How to Draw the Line
http://www.janebluestein.com/bookstore/p...

Dr. Phil
http://www.drphil.com/

Parenting In Jesus' Footsteps
http://parentinginjesusfootsteps.org/

Arms of Love: A grace based explanation of Biblical child rearing:
http://aolff.org/

Nurturing God's Way
http://www.nurturinggodsway.com/

Churches Network for Nonviolence
17 months ago: "Increase in aggression, anger, and antisocial behaviors, delayed empathy development, diminished ability to self-discipline, lowered I.Q."

You did mean for the above to be a "possible" outcome? Right? Because I have four children you need to meet. Two are licensed school teachers, one is working on his degree in secondary education mathematics with a computer science minor and substitute teaches when needed, the fourth starts his second year of college with a first year GPA above 3.8, Deans List and all that and was selected as a member of an internationally renowned chorus (national and international performances). All graduated high school with multiple AP courses and GPA's above 3.3, two as honor grads, which carried on through college. I could go on and on about their success as young adults but I think you get the picture that spanking does not always end with negative results and if you ask them, they will all agree that CP is a tool to be used along with all the other ones. You're damn right I'm proud!

As for your definition of discipline, sure, that one is in there, but mine doesn't include Dr. Phil. Looking up the different versions online will get a result that, bar none, includes the word "punishment". For me and regarding children, this is the best "A systematic method to obtain obedience."

So for those still wondering what is the best method, you'll have to figure it out as you go and that will become your "systematic method" with all its different levels and degrees of parental enforcement, just remember, they are children, not punching bags, not fully mentally and emotionally developed and in need of guidance from you. Tread lightly upon their feelings and break not their bones or skin.
PDeverit
PDeverit
Seattle, WA
17 months ago:
Churches Network for Nonviolence
http://www.churchesfornon-violence.org/i...

Christian website about attachment parenting:
http://www.gentlemothering.com/


Matthew 19:8
Just because something is a long-standing tradition, doesn't mean it was ever right
17 months ago: PD - I appreciate your input. Just because we don't agree absolutely does not mean I don't appreciate your comments.

Also, I really would like to know your opinion on abortions and child advocacy. How does that fit into your "zero tolerance" for spanking and no violence towards children philosophy?
17 months ago: PD - if you don't respond to the question I posed to you, I guess that pretty much tells where you stand on the issue. I was hoping you were no one of the duplistic ones.
Altruist
Altruist
Eugene, OR
17 months ago: PD I think you are exactly correct about the main goal of discipline being to promote self discipline.

The basic philosophical difference between progressives and conservatives, is that the left wants to bring up well adjusted people who know right from wrong and do the proper things because it is right to do so.

The right wants to bring up "God Fearing People" who don't break the law because of the threat of prison. Of course cheating on your taxes is OK because the government doesn't have the right to tax, and it's OK to lie, cheat, steal, and destroy the environment, and get away with murder, as long as you don't get caught.
17 months ago: Al - You really need to put your broad stroke paintbrush away. Not everyone on the so-called Right" even believes in God.

You have such an anti religious bias, specifically anti-Christian, that it taints everything that you say and crushes its validity and credibility.

This last edition is a perfect example of a response that has not been well thought out, includes gross generalizations and is actually flat out wrong. It's a knee jerk response that you simply pulled from your pocket.

There are folk on both sides of the fence that want to bring up well adjusted people who know right from wrong and do proper things because they are the right thing to do.

You are turning out to be one of the most prejudiced and judgmental individuals that I have ever corresponded with. Astoundingly so.
The Thinker
The Thinker
Elizabeth, NJ
Content Removed by The Thinker
The Thinker
The Thinker
Elizabeth, NJ
10 months ago: The only time hitting a child is okay is if the child is trying to kill someone other than an abusive person. A youth rights advocate/blogger whom I follow posted a great essay about the "last resort" excuse. http://www.eightminefortress.com/surewhy...
Edward Lee
Edward Lee
Canada
10 months ago: Worldly wisdom, is not worth two cents, look at history, in the old days children were disciplined and brought up to be good citizens, in some countries they speak to the child while he/her is still in the womb, the God that made us instructed, how a child should be brought up. But NO we think that we know it all.

Well what is the fruit of our wisdom? Is this generation better than the last?
I will leave that with you to answer.
PDeverit
PDeverit
Seattle, WA
10 months ago:
Only suitable for minors?:

Schoolchildrens' "spanking" related injuries (WARNING - These images may be deeply disturbing to some viewers. Do not open this page if children are present).
http://www.nospank.net/injuredkids.pdf

Reasonable and moderate? You decide.
(WARNING - This sound recording may be deeply disturbing to some listeners. Do not open this file if children are within listening range).
http://nospank.net/prj-006.wav


People used to think it was necessary to "spank" adult members of the community, college students, military trainees, and prisoners. In some countries they still do. In our country, it is considered assault and battery (sexual battery at that) if a person over the age of 18 is "spanked", but only if over the age of 18.


Most current research:

Spanking Kids Increases Risk of Sexual Problems
http://www.unh.edu/news/cj_nr/2008/feb/l...

Use of Spanking for 3-Year-Old Children and Associated Intimate Partner Aggression or Violence
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cg...

Spanking Can Make Children More Aggressive Later
http://tulane.edu/news/releases/pr_03122...

Spanking Children Can Lower IQ
http://www.unh.edu/news/cj_nr/2009/sept/...


Recommended by professionals:

Plain Talk About Spanking
by Jordan Riak
http://www.nospank.net/pt2010.pdf

The Sexual Dangers of Spanking Children
by Tom Johnson
http://nospank.net/sdsc2.pdf

NO VITAL ORGANS THERE, So They Say
by Lesli Taylor MD and Adah Maurer PhD
http://nospank.net/taylor.htm

"Spanking" can be intentionally or unintentionally sexually abusive (educational resources documentation, testimony, etc):
http://www.nospank.net/101.htm
PDeverit
PDeverit
Seattle, WA
10 months ago:

Just a handful of those helping to raise awareness of why child "spanking" isn't a good idea:

American Academy of Pediatrics,
American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry,
American Psychological Association,
Center For Effective Discipline,
Churches' Network For Non-Violence,
United Methodist Church
Nobel Peace Prize recipient Archbishop Desmond Tutu,
Parenting In Jesus' Footsteps,
Global Initiative To End All Corporal Punishment of Children,
United Nations Committee on the Rights of the Child.

In 31 nations, child corporal punishment is prohibited by law (with more in process). In fact, the US was the only UN member that did not ratify the Convention on the Rights of the Child. The US also has the highest incarceration rate in the world.

The US states with the highest crime rates, poorest academic performance, highest obesity rates and health problems, and largest welfare caseloads are also the ones with the highest rates of child corporal punishment.

Of all the things prison inmates lacked in their upbringing, "spanking" certainly wasn't one of them.

There is simply no evidence to suggest that child bottom-battering instills virtue.
PDeverit
PDeverit
Seattle, WA
10 months ago:
Ask 10 staunch, unyielding proponents of child "spanking" which of these are the "right way" to do it, and which are obscene, indecent, or abusive, and you will get 10 different answers:

http://www.thehittingstopshereurstory.co...

http://hpd.de/files/images/middleMicada-...

http://img.allvoices.com/thumbs/event/59...

http://inaworldofhurt.files.wordpress.co...

http://www.chastisewithlove.com/otlfb.jp...

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_0ACA3PAZyP8/SS...

http://www.chastisewithlove.com/uta.jpg


Although we frequently hear from unyielding proponents of child-only "spanking, we rarely, if ever find advocates for the return of "spanking" to our prison systems, military, colleges, or general adult community.


In 20 U.S. states, schoolchildren may be subjected to "corporal punishment", which often results in the need for medical treatment.

Some traditions are worth repeating and passing down, and some just aren't.
6 months ago: Gosh. I didn't know folks were still active here.

PDeverit - all you printed was a bunch of yang. You still have not answered the question as to whether you feel it is okay to abort children.

Is it okay in your book? If so, how in the hell can you tell a parent to NEVER spank their kid? What the flip! You advocate murder of children!

Maybe I'm wrong on this one. You tell me.

However, if you don't answer me here and now all that tells me is that you are a coward as well as a hypocrite. Period.

Murdering kids is okay, but spanking is not? Answer that question.

Please address that question or you need to stay off my Rant/Rave and stop blowing smoke.
4 months ago: I just want everyone who reads this post to understand that child advocacy MUST begin in the womb. If we do not value human life there, it's spurious at best how much "compassion" shown once the child is born is legitimate if it shows up at all.

I'll go back here - no spank, but okay with abortion on demand for any reason, but child advocate = LIAR.
4 months ago: PDeverit - Do you have any kids??

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