News & Politics

Rant

Third Parties in America...Not any time soon

Posted 10 months ago|76 comments|625 views
Written by
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
The United States has become stagnant when it comes to political parties and their ideas. In reality the two parties, in general, are not even that different from each other. People have become frustrated by the major parties, especially since 2000. The interesting thing is that despite these struggles none of the other parties in the country have been able to make any headway on the national scene.

The lack of a third party is a system by design. Throughout history there have been two parties with very few exceptions (and these exceptions were largely a party replacing another). In the modern era the two parties we know today have done their very best to prevent a third party from rising up (the Democrats and Republicans work very well together when it comes to making sure they stay in charge). From funding laws, to the primary system it is close to impossible for off party candidates to get elected (See my recent post on Campaign Finance Reform for some of the details on that issue).

With all the strife it would seem logical that now would be a good time for another party to make a splash. While it sounds like a good idea I really do not think it would work, nor would it make any difference. What it boils down to is this: The Presidency is not enough. A third party president would, in the current federal system, essentially become a figure head at best. With no allies in the house or senate a third party president would be forced to just go along for the ride, or alternatively veto a lot of bills and get nothing done.

The current two parties in power would have to pass legislation that would make it easier for third parties to become a strong contender; this is never going to happen for much the same reason that there will never be term limits for congress, nobody is going to make laws to fire themselves, its just not logical. Therefore in order for a third party to become a viable entity it would take a miracle of widespread winning, most likely during a presidential election year. A full sweep of the available 1/3 of the House seats open...and at least 20 senate seats in one go round to establish a foothold strong enough to continue to hold power and also have the votes to make an impact.

The 3 largest "third-parties" in the United States are: Green, Constitution and Libertarian. None of these have had any true success in running a candidate. The Reform party had some success in the past, earning enough votes to qualify for funding, however due to the reckless actions of Pat Buchannon and the in-fighting in the party they have dwindled to insignificance. The Libertarian party has the largest number of registered members outside of the two major parties, so logic would state that they would be the best chance, but their most likely a bit to radical to win large numbers of elections. This brings me to the next point.

Most Americans are very centrist. There may be arguments over abortion or immigration but when it comes down to the majority of issues we are largely moderate. So are the majority of rank and file members of Congress. Even the most zealous politicians from the far sides of either direction tend to drift towards the middle over time. You simply cannot get anything done if you are too radical. While it is unfortunate that people do not necessarily feel that there is a candidate that aligns with their views perfectly, the addition of a third party simply would not change that. Human beings are all different. Nobody is going to agree/align with you 100% of the time. This has led to our candidates pounding on a few key issues. Lately its been health care, abortion and gay marriage. These are issues that people have opinions on. They tend to be strong opinions and this is why candidates use them. They look at polling data and then jump on the side of plurality and drive it home (i.e. Liberals tend to be pro-choice...democrats run campaigns based on this. Conservatives tend to be very zealous when it comes to immigration reform...Republicans campaign to build a wall) The point being that campaigns are based on the majority and such there is no where to go, in my case I am strongly pro-choice, but I despise unions...well do I vote for the pro union, pro choice democrat or the pro life anti union republican...

To avoid rambling further, I shall conclude. A third party will never succeed in this country in my opinion. People vote on limited issues that they have strong opinions on. They are divisive issues with no center point of view for the most part. A third party simply doesn't have enough ground to stand on to make a case that they would be better. If a third party did arise, it would have to be floating in its ideology, following the opinions of independent, likely voters...it would be the party of ever-changing positions. They could call it the FlipFlop party because essentially that is all they could do. The only way to truly end the two party system would be an Amendment to switch our Congressional elections to a plurality representation system and to do away with the Electoral College.
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COMMENTS
10 months ago: I posted this in another Rave...

"IN Canada we have a multi-party system that at times gives us minority gov's... however it seems that some can enter the race just to split the vote and cause a majority for someone the majority never even voted for...

The only way to have a proper balance and reflection of the popular vote is RECALL! IF an elected candidate does not follow through with platforms that got them elected they and/or their policies can be revoked and RECALLED...

Initiative, Referendum and Recall Rights
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rap3TnzjX...

...is that just pie in the sky?"
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
10 months ago: We have recall (Not for the President). This post is more related to the opportunity for a third party to exist in the first place, its not so much about the recourse that voters have if they are upset about elected officials.
10 months ago: PH,

IF you do get a third party... who is to say that it won't be some attempt to split the vote like Ross Perot was accused of back in 92...

"The Left Will Try to Split the Conservative Vote... When Bill Clinton was facing a risky 1992 election for president, Ross Perot appeared from nowhere to split the GOP vote, and Clinton got elected. Was there funny business behind the scenes? We may never know. We do know by now that Clinton and Perot apparently had long telephone conversations that were not revealed at the time. We also know that Ross Perot had huge federal contracts for his basic business and that Clinton learned the political game in Arkansas. Clinton won with a minority of the popular vote."
http://www.americanthinker.com/2010/02/t...

...I happened to like Perot, however something seemed off about that whole election.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
10 months ago: That certainly could happen. A few things though:

1. The presidency is not enough to make an impact at large. We need a third party in Congress to make a real difference.

2. Ross Perot certainly impacted the vote, however lets not be foolish and think that he legitimately didn't want to win. The Reform Party was a huge undertaking and it had members from both sides of the aisle, it was about winning as a third party. Bill Clinton winning was just collateral damage from the effort. This is only big news because it happened in America where we only have 2 players...3rd party candidates split votes all the time in other countries.

3. americanthinker is an extreme right wing daily...not a reliable source for most things, although they have a few good writers over there.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
10 months ago: I should note that I personally think there should be a plurality system where representation is based on percentage of votes won, not winner takes all like we have now. I will be addressing this in a future post.
9 months ago: Truth ? Let's put the shoe on the other foot for arguments sake.

What if the "Blue Dog" Democrats split and formed a voting block?

You think they have the guts? You think they are out to split their party control?

It is now time for the Republican Party to grow some huevoes and make a stand.

Even if it is only a few newbies. Maybe we can now "Target" the rinos in 2012.
10 months ago: In england we have a few parties but when you have more parties it opens the door for loonies with money to have a go at politics.
Most of these are not successfull i might add.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
10 months ago: See my post about campaign finance in terms of the rich wackjobs getting in.
10 months ago: Ah? But can you see that those "Stupid" Tea Partiers won't make a third party move until after the 2012 election. Duh? Ross Perot? Bait us all you want. Your going to get your anti-wish.

Conservative Sweep in 2012. Then we will begin to clean out our closet.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
10 months ago: Not sure why you are so combative all the time.

Never said the Tea Party was stupid. I don't think that they have a candidate that could win the Presidency (Most of the electoral votes are in the North and on the Coasts). Further, if you would have read my post, you would have seen that the Presidency is simply not enough. If you think that the Tea Party is going to over throw the Republican party, now that I could see happening, but again they would have to have Tea Party members win about 1/3 of the House seats (all at once) and about 20-25 Senate seats to actually have a chance of doing so. While I understand that you find the Tea Party compelling, polling data shows that you are in a select minority and that the majority of people (especially conservatives) view the Tea Party unfavorably.
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Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
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Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
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Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
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markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
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9 months ago: Yeah well Perfect. To each their own. Like how 2 admins and one other moderator left the posts until Mark shows up and calls me a what? What was that term of endearment by a moderator? "blithering"? Conservatives do not view the Tea Party unfavorably. The established beltway Republicans do. Big difference.
9 months ago: Then again Mark the MOD. Is it your goal to resurrect the TCG and RSG after we have been sooooo.. *Tweet Tweet* nice in laying off the site for months? Might need so 'splaining' to do on your own personal subjectivity. Yeah. That was a call out. *tSweet tSweet*. Go figure. Then again the Obama Stock market was performing above the Obama standard....today....
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
9 months ago: The blithering comment was in respect to your comments about how much larger your views were than his views. Nothing to do with politics I assure you. As for the moderation, I didn't come here out of the blue to rain on your glorious return - comments were flagged, and I made a review and removed comments as noted.

...Is it your goal to resurrect the TCG and RSG after we have been sooooo.. *Tweet Tweet* nice in laying off the site for months?...

You were gone for months? Didn't really notice but I've been busy with other projects myself.
9 months ago: Mark? Opinion site? Blithering when someones opinions are larger than others? Don't really care if you came out of a drop zone of agent orange. You in you own statement deleted an opinion.
9 months ago: My or your glorious return? *Tsweet Tsweet* Does T tick you off to the point of retribution that does not follow the site TOS? No? Justify the deletions you made of opinions. Both mine and Perfect Horizons. Now your going to say a sidebar in a post is not allowed because it is in your OPINION off topic?

Like is said. Opinions are like A-holes..Everyone has one any you seem to have more than most.
Altruist
Altruist
Eugene, OR
10 months ago: Good post and good points. You are right that unless the system changes third parties don't have much of a chance.

The only possibility would be to change the rules so that we had proportional representation and also preference voting or instant runnoff voting.

Besides Ross Perot, Ralph Nader and the Green Party was a spoiler when they split the vote and allowed Bush to win. Nader got 97,000 votes in Florida and most of those would have gone to Gore. If TB thinks Clinton manipulated Perot into running to split the vote is it any less plausible that Bush conned Nader into splitting Gore's votes?

So Nader and Perot's candidacies eliminated much of the enthusiasm for third parties, even though people are disenchanted with both major parties.

The main purpose for third parties is to influence policy. The Tea Party was very successful in dragging the Republican Party (and the Democrats) to the far right. http://freedomkeys.com/whatfor.htm

The opinions of the majority of people as perfect pointed out, reside in the center, but now with all of the attention going to the far right, the entire system is way out of balance. We need a viable party on the left to restore balance and bring both major parties back closer to the center.

If people could vote for a third party without it being a spoiler vote, many more people would vote for the Green Party.

The best way to do that is with preferential or instant runoff voting where you can vote for the person that best represents your view, but then if that person doesn't get enough votes your vote would shift to your second choice.

There is a way that we could eliminate the Electoral Collage and change the way we chose our candidates. It is called the initiative system. The way we elect all of our representatives has evolved. When the founders conceived of the nation there were serious communication problems, a much greater percentage was illiterate, and only the white landed gentry were allowed to vote. Times change and our election procedure should also change.

9 months ago: Congrats Al on moving into the 2nd spot. I'm sure you and Perfect think you earned it on your own. A documented play by me. No? Don't get your feelings hurt when you find out I did it to play with Dwayne.
9 months ago: TCG,

That is classy !:]
I guess if ignoring Dwayne doesn't help... just promo the next in line !

2Cool
9 months ago: You do know that both will demand me to present proof. Funny thing is before I sent Al to the number two spot I documented the play with the site. No? Call that a lie.
9 months ago: Well if anyone wants proof...

http://twitter.com/#!/thecypressgang

...right?
9 months ago: Would you like to see Huey move to the number 3 spot in the next 24 hours?
9 months ago: TCG,

Yeah Huey deserves it, and would appreciate the gesture...
[seems you been busy pushing mine up a bit too !:]

Thanks...
Your promotion of Rant/Rave is commendable...
You definitely have NOT been self-serving!
9 months ago: Huey starts to rock in 1 hour.
9 months ago: Yeah, he does. The really big compromise question is...

Should I get Siempre on the listing ahead of DuhDemocrat. Seems that the Democrat Senate tabled the Republican plan and then turned around in the same old fashion by blaming Republicans for not compromising. OK. Why should the House not "table" the "Democrat Reid" plan. Oh yeah, Did you know that all laws that pertain to money must originate in the House? How can Harry constituionally originate a money bill in the Senate?
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
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9 months ago: Anything else you feel you need to get off your chest? Please feel free. I was unaware how badly we got under your skin. Don't scratch that itch too much. It only makes it itch more.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
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10 months ago: Well we have two too many parties already. And with the Supreme Court ruling that corporations can make campaign donations we wont even need those two. Get ready for the Pepsi-Cola Branded Whitehouse
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
9 months ago: We already have a brand in the White House complete with own logo. That logo is already pretty close to the Pepsi one, so it wouldn't take much to get it switched out.

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/...
9 months ago: Slim,

"Pepsi-Cola Branded Whitehouse" ...did you read this?...
http://www.rantrave.com/Rant/SenomyxPeps...

10 months ago: In England we have a monster raving looney party and people do honestly vote for it.
Altruist
Altruist
Eugene, OR
9 months ago: I like the idea of doing away with political parties altogether. If there were preferential or instant runnoff votes with anyone allowed. Shorter campaigns and many public debates to eliminate the weakest and allowed pres. of one party and VP of another party there would be no need for parties.

Let people be judged by their ideas and their abilities not by their party affiliation.
9 months ago: Switching to the TEA Party Al?
Felix Mannow
Felix Mannow
England
9 months ago: lol Mr Cypress Tea party make me laugh.
perhap Green tea party too.
DjiniP
DjiniP
South Milwaukee, WI
9 months ago: I think the Tea Party should be an independent party. They're ideology is so far right of the Republican party, but they try to bully the Republican politicians into conforming to their ideas. It's the tail wagging the dog. Tea Party candidates should run independently just like Green Party, etc.
9 months ago: Would the Bluedogs consider splitting from the Democrat party since they are not in control? Or, should they just fight harder?

What if we are the Republican party and just take it back from the Rinos?

Welcome to the site. How did you find it?
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
9 months ago: Actually, I think it was the other way around, and the TEA Party was infiltrated by the Republican party when they saw the support it was gathering. Basically, the TEA Party was hijacked by the Republicans because they saw their power being threatened.
9 months ago: Like I said. Now we can focus on the RINOs. Seems everyone is running scared of the TEA Party. You think we mind being hated? Not a chance. That is what has the entire system confused. We don't care about getting bribes for votes. Compromise? Why? Is that not admitting defeat?
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
9 months ago: The Tea Party could never be independent. They need the Republican money and title to get elected. If they went independent they would no different when it comes to elections than the Green Party.
9 months ago: I think you have it reversed. As proven by the last election cycle.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
9 months ago: They ran as Republicans...with Republican money...
9 months ago: Viola ! They ran as Republicans and are voting like Republicans. The RINOs should take note. They (RINOs) seem to side with the Democrats and Whitehouse in bad mouthing a voting block they can't control. The next election is not only going to be fun for Democrats, it is also going to be fun for some "Republicans". Yes, we are taking names. You want to bet some of these turncoats want the Tea Party vote next November?
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
9 months ago: I'm not familiar with the "RINO"? Care to fill me in?
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
9 months ago: Where do you think the money for the Tea Party candidates will come from if they go independent? No federal money, no republican money...I'm just curious as to how you think they will pay for campaigns
9 months ago: Your not familiar with RINO? Are you familiar with STUPID?
9 months ago: The New Underground Railroad is sounding better every day.
9 months ago: Not to worry brother. Your more than welcome. Please bring some friends. I think I have enough left in me to dodge those bullets for another 18 months. It's funny that they can't infiltrate the movement. Don't think they have not and are not trying. We "dumb, little people" seem to have them standing back on their heels.
9 months ago: What they want us to do is to think that it is not possible.

With time anything can happen, right? Even the creation of the universe from nothing.

We don't need bullets and grenades. What we need is faith and conviction along with hard work and the desire to get it done.

Sytems change. But they don't change by themselves.
9 months ago: Strange how that works. You reminded me of a post from about a year ago. One that no person with a shread of moral instinct could counter.

Thanks for the shot in the arm.

Once again, for Huey.

UnBlack TEA Party - New Underground Railroad?

http://www.rantrave.com/Rave/UnBlack-TEA...
9 months ago: Huey? would you expect anything less from children in their mid 20's? You know the type. Highly educated without a bit of common sense. Pissed when they find out that piece or those pieces of paper don't mean squat in the real world. Funny how that whole respect argument works.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
9 months ago: I always find it amusing when the older folks complain about this generation...have you forgotten who raised it???
9 months ago: You have a point.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
9 months ago: as for the education thing: I'm sorry you couldn't afford it or couldn't get in to a college...I really am...Jealousy is a powerful emotion...you seem to have lost control of yours when it comes to this topic
9 months ago: In the real world it does not matter how many letters one has behind a name. What matters is what is in the heart.
9 months ago: Common sense is not so common anymore.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
9 months ago: Common sense is subjective...it is something that has no definition and causes lots of arguments. For example, to me it is absolute common sense that rich people should pay A LOT more in taxes than less rich people/poor people.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
9 months ago: Come on, guys. Let's keep it it civil, if at all possible. You are both assuming things that you can't prove, and saying things that have nothing to do with the topic at hand. Ad hominem at it's worst.

We understand the fact that you guys don't like each other. We get it. That kind of disagreement is best dealt with in private.
9 months ago: 10-4. Keep it civil. Sorry box but to support Perfect on this one he has kept it very civil. Not once did she threaten to tear my head off of shoot me. While I can understand the affection of some for a majic, poker player that thinks they can out wit proven life from school books. I have to disagree with the implied request of being civil and it's implication.
9 months ago: In America we are not sentenced to a two party system. Anyone who thinks that we are has given up hope of a better day.
9 months ago: As far as this generation...we should have done better. However, it's not over.
9 months ago: Huey? define "this generation". Is it the deadwood?
9 months ago: The generation that we are passing the torch to. I refuse to see this generation as a lost one.

Not all of this generation is made up of atheistic moral relativists. Nor is it made up entirely of secular hedonists that only care about material things. It's not even dominated by the ignorant who subscribe to eugenic philosophies while living by faith in mathematical impossibilities. There are plenty that buck that trend.

There are many bright spots out there. Your and my kids for example.

Young adults and other young people that have been brought up to honor God and care about their country. Young people and children who understand that this is not an accident, but we are all here on purpose. Young people who understand that the world does not revolve around them. Young folks that are understanding why they are here and what part they have to play in order to make this world a better place and tomorrow a brighter day.

There are plenty of those still out there. We just can't be idle.

We need to make sure we do everything we can do to encourage and push the them forward. We need to do this and encourage others in position of influence to do the same. The world is sure not going to do it nor should we expect it to.

Swimming upstream is hard, but it's worth the struggle. Even a dead fish can make it downstream.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
9 months ago: Its a bit condescending to assert that Atheists cannot be good leaders. Shouldn't all young people be pushed and encouraged to be good people and good leaders? Unless we are talking about a church how is honoring your God or any other God a requirement for leadership? I care about this country just as much as you do or the Priest at the church down the road.
9 months ago: PH,

I did not mean to imply that atheists could not be good leaders. Not all atheists are cut from the same cloth. There are some who are quite capable when it comes to handling certain things. However, I am glad not all our young people see it that way.

And Yes, they all need to be encouraged. Especially the type that I called out because they are the ones that are going to need the most help.
9 months ago: condescending? Pot Kettle? No? I'm not sure if someone should use that word.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
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markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
9 months ago: and BTW Perfect, when you flag posts, the axe fall both ways doesn't it? My suggestion would be not to flag or not to take the bait and engage in irrelevant personal asides.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
9 months ago: True, but perhaps if the moderators would do what you did a bit more often it wouldn't even be an issue....take a look at every post/comment on this site...see who is on the "irrelevant" and insulting and rude and pointless train most often (hint: their names can both be abbreviated to 3 letters)
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
9 months ago: I don't know Perfect - as I see it, you do have a history of being an an inverse mirror of the guy with 3 letters. But respectfully, you can exercise self-control and not respond to the baiting comments, If you do and and it devolves to juvenile exchanges with comments getting flagged, than the moderator is forced to step in and play Father Knows Best. My suggestion would be to not take the bait but if you engage the baiter in discussion, you should already know what's coming and why bother flagging it?

The moderators shouldn't have to moderate long standing members here.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
9 months ago: Point taken on the not having to respond. I will argue however that for a long time they were allowed to infest rantrave with pointless, personal attacks that were never handled by the moderators. I am indeed guilty of being the inverse, however I was the only one who would challenge them about their immaturity (albeit I was being immature in the responses as well). The point is that they should have been dealt with long ago for their constant belittlement of every other member of the site that didn't agree with them...
9 months ago: They? Is that like when they say ya'll in rebuttal?
9 months ago: That is some real funny sheet Mark. Perfect Horizon "Flagged" my comments and more of his were deleted. Go figure how thoe perfect percentages work oy when opposing those little 5 percenters that claim to be Tea Partiers.

Hey Noni? Uh Perfect? Uh? NICE move and now public.
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
9 months ago: To get semi-back to the topic, here's some numbers for you:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/05/us/pol...

"Republicans in Congress shoulder more of the blame for the difficulties in reaching a debt-ceiling agreement than President Obama and the Democrats, the poll found.

The Republicans compromised too little, a majority of those polled said. All told, 72 percent disapproved of the way Republicans in Congress handled the negotiations, while 66 percent disapproved of the way Democrats in Congress handled negotiations.

The public was more evenly divided about how Mr. Obama handled the debt ceiling negotiations: 47 percent disapproved and 46 percent approved.

The public's opinion of the Tea Party movement has soured in the wake of the debt-ceiling debate. The Tea Party is now viewed unfavorably by 40 percent of the public and favorably by just 20 percent, according to the poll."

If those numbers were to hold true to the elections, you might be taking another long break from RR.
9 months ago: That is some real funny stuff considering the "FAUX NEWS" statements from some liberals while they conform to the NYTimes, SFgate, Huffington Post, CNN, MSNBC, all G.E. (G.overnment E.ntitlements) owned media.... What is the percentage of slanted media when being honest? Really. List them one side against the other. Be fair.
9 months ago: Mark, care to make a bet on the 2012 eclection cycle? I lose I leave...You lose you leave... Game? Want to start the negotiations for the terms of the agreement?

Mine are simple. Obama loses power. Conservatives control the House. Harry Reid is ousted.

Want to take the bet? Game on.
sunny2
sunny2
8 months ago: That was said beautifully Huey.
9 months ago: Care to comment on the news that S&P has "Downgraded" the Obama America to a AA+ rating? There goes all of his FAUX GAO computations. Nice job with that Obama / Reid debt ceiling increase bill.
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
9 months ago: Gee, where was S&P when Reagan and Bush were quadrupling and doubling the debt respectively. The stench of Republican backed Wall Street chicanery is in the air and it might well pop that Republican Tea Bag balloon if the chicanery gets exposed.
sunny2
sunny2
8 months ago: I'm going to follow Mark's advice, too, regarding not responding.
Better not to recognize the commotion they make. It is only noise, and there is no civility intended, only rudeness. Not even a point is made by them. I have flagged a couple of times, but I see it does no good. Nothing is learned by it.
Everyone has a difference of opinion. Opinion is what makes this Political Stage go round and round. Opinion is what gets some of the stronger candidates elected. Opinions start the ball rolling toward change. People listen intently to every word that is said when a person expresses their opinion. I see it here. Freedom of thinking and speech is what keeps us on top. I don't know who was waiting with bated breath for the return of a few characters, only to be mocked because one has opinions. They seem to think they are very important, but they don't contribute much. I would gladly read what they say if they said anything at all. I don't think this economy is a joke or a game to use in order to play people.

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