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The topic of Abortion in the health care bill

Posted 15 months ago|41 comments|925 views
Written by
kelsxo
Edgewater, FL
Now since they can't repeal it, they want to dictate what women do with their bodies. The only way they cover abortion if a woman was FORCABILY raped. Hmmm.. Thought all rape was forced...
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COMMENTS
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
15 months ago: Do you think abortion should be covered in a public health plan? How about liposuction? (surgical fat removal)
kelsxo
kelsxo
Edgewater, FL
15 months ago: Yes I do. Not liposuction of course your just being ignorant. The average number of abortions last year was only about 200. That's not a lot. Yes, women should have the option, and it should NOT be compared to cosmetic surgery. Men should not be able to dictate what women do with their bodies.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
15 months ago: The average number of abortions was only about 200? What is that, the average number per 1000 live births? In 2010 alone, there were over 1,300,000 in the United States alone.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
15 months ago: What's the difference? You think a fetus is just unwanted tissue to be sucked out and disposed of. It was caused by a lifestyle choice, namely, having unprotected sex.
Fat is unwanted tissue brought about by a lifestyle choice, over-eating. It too can be sucked out and disposed of.

Both an unwanted pregnancy and excessive fat can cause long lasting difficulties in a person's life. They both can cause social stigma, and a significant drop in earning potential. They both can interfere in "living life to its fullest".
So what's the difference?
kelsxo
kelsxo
Edgewater, FL
15 months ago: Did you not read my post at all? It always isn't a LIFESTYLE CHOICE caused by unprotected sex. Your an ignorant jerk, probably a man, who doesn't understand this topic. In my opinion I don't think a man has the right to voice their opinion on this topic, because they don't know and they will never know about this subject.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
15 months ago: What other way can it happen? You already said that the abortion could be covered if the woman was a rape victim. As you pointed out, there is only one kind of rape, and that would by force. You do realize that, right.

And the last time I checked, it takes a man and a woman to make a baby. I wouldn't want a world in which women had the only say in whether a man's child lived or died.
kelsxo
kelsxo
Edgewater, FL
15 months ago: Men aren't stuck with the responsiblity.
15 months ago: Less than 2% of the abortions that occur are due to health or some other horrendous circumstance. So, I'm not speaking to extenuating circumstances like abuse, rape and danger to mother's life.

Most of the time the pregnancies could be avoided rather than circumvented if our people were responsible adults. From a young age our children need to be taught and shown models of discipline and self-respect. That way when they become adults they will have the tools and the mind-set to act responsibly.

Our children are sexualized and exploited at earlier and earlier ages. It's unfortunate that we live in a society that promotes promiscuity and self-centered irresponsibility. Get rid of both of those and the abortion rate drops immediately.

Like you said Kelsxo, all too often the fathers or potential fathers, abdicate their responsibilities and leave the females holding the bag. That should never happen. In those situastions those individuals should have never hooked up in the first place. Bad choices.

Abortion should never be seen as just another simple method of birth control. It is far more serious than that.

Unwanted pregnancies can be avoided. It's a matter of lifestyle choices.

Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
15 months ago: Real men are.
kelsxo
kelsxo
Edgewater, FL
15 months ago: yes real men are, but all men aren't good. Once you bare a child or earn the ability to then you will understand these choices. I really don't care what any of you MEN have to say about this subject because your completely ignornant on the topic. thanks.
15 months ago: That's a dodge to keep from dealing with the issue.

Like OOTB, I'm a family man as well. I have counseled people who have gone through some pretty horrendous situations including abortion.

To flatly say all men are ignorant with regard to the subject of reproduction and unwanted pregnancies means one is either oblivious to the truth or just doesn't want to hear anything other than what they've already made up their mind to believe.

It takes two to tango.

In either party has unrealistic expectations, lacks the ability or refuses to communicate value and vision, or turns a blind eye to the potential consequences of having sex in uncommitted relationships then there is no wonder we have this problem.

I know not everyone has the same values. However we have all been dealt the hand of life. What we do with it is our responsibility. We reap what we sow.

Again, most abortions could be totally avoided if the parties who were engaging in the activity that produces pregnancy were responsible. Irresponsibility on the part of either the man or the woman potentially puts an innocent life in danger.

There is a better way.

However, if we go with the flavor of the day rather than make good decisions and back them up with responsibility we will continue to have the same disastrous results.

I'm not mandating to anyone here what to do, but I am telling you how it is.
BadCyborg
BadCyborg
San Antonio, TX
Content Removed by BadCyborg
BadCyborg
BadCyborg
San Antonio, TX
15 months ago: My sister had an abortion in her late teens. She has regretted that unfortunate decision ever since. Not only did she take the life of a helpless, defenseless unborn baby, the procedure damaged her cervix. She had 3 mid-to-late term miscarriages before the Doctors finally figured out her cervix was not competent to hold a baby. She had to have "purse string" sutures put in to be able to carry both of my nieces to term.

My wife and would have LOVED to have reared that child. We didn't get the opportunity. I really wish we had.

Oh, and the word for which you were looking is "bear" not its homophone "bare". One means "to produce" in this context (although the past participle "have born/borne" might be more appropriate in your statement) while the other would mean to strip the clothing off of.

You don't care what we "MEN" have to say - unless you decide to keep the child then you hightail it to family court to see that we "fulfill our responsibilities". We have no say in whether the fruit of our union will be delivered but we have to pay if YOU choose to carry it to term? If I have a fiduciary stake in the outcome of the decision, I should have input into the decision.

If a woman conceives a child but has no desire to rear said offspring, thousands of couples are waiting in line to adopt it - irrespective of gender, racial makeup, or physical imperfections. I can state categorically without fear of contradiction that THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS AN UNWANTED CHILD!! I guarantee it.

BadCyborg
BadCyborg
San Antonio, TX
15 months ago: Whenever I read the debate on abortion, I am reminded of a song I heard years ago. It was written by Ray Bolz. Here are the lyrics. I seriously doubt Mr. Bolz would object to my printing them here.

What Was I Supposed To Be?
Jesus walked upon the earth,
On the shores of Galilee,
He'd say to His disciples,
Let the little children come to me,
I wonder if up in heaven,
Do you suppose we'll see
little children asking
what was I supposed to be.

What was I supposed to be,
What were my eyes supposed to see,
And why did I taste of death
before I even drew a breath,
Laid my head at my mother's breast,
to sleep.
Oh Jesus,
What was I supposed to be?

Was I to be a prophet
used in the ministry,
A doctor who would find a cure
for some terrible disease,
Even if I'd been born imperfect
why couldn't my parents see,
That I'd have been made perfect
when you came back for me.
Oh Jesus,

What was I supposed to be,
What were my eyes supposed to see,
And why did I taste of death
before I even drew a breath,
Laid my head at my mother's breast,
to sleep.
Oh Jesus,
What was I supposed to be?

Oh Jesus,what was I supposed to be,
Oh Jesus, what was I supposed to be.

Listen to it here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMA4zgWbR...

REALLY listen to it. Then come back and tell me you think abortion is no big deal.

BTW, I've been caring for my Baby's baby - now 5 months old - since he was 5 WEEKS old. I would put a bullet in ANYONE who threatened him - without hesitation. I'd likely feel bad afterward but I would not hesitate to shoot anyone who threatened him - or his Mother, Dad, siblings, Grandma, Uncles, Aunts, cousins, whoever.

Oh, and I consider that to be a duty laid upon me by Creator God when I was born (as eldest son) and when I became a husband and then a father.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
15 months ago: No, I'm not ignorant on the topic. You can ask my four children that I have been there for.

It is true that not all men are honorable. Some are downright evil. I think all women know that to be a fact. All the more reason for a woman to tighten her standards, her morals, and the force of her knees pressing together.

If she can't be responsible enough not to have sex, knowing she could get pregnant, how can she moan about the man not being responsible enough to help her with a baby? A union of two irresponsible people can only end in disaster.

If you are having these sorts of problems, I am very sorry you are having to go through it. But remember, it is a life inside the womb. Women who go through with abortions have a lifetime of regret to deal with.
15 months ago: There was a time when having a toothache was a VERY big deal because there was not know, safe dentistry. You avoided a toothache like the plague and if you HAD to have your tooth or teeth pulled you might be sore for days, have a high risk of infection, and worse.

Today we have modern medicine which can safely abort a fetus. We have don't know if a fetus is as smart as an ameba. We not only don't know, but are unlikely to find out in the near future.

For those who say that human life is sacred and every possible human fetus MUST grow into an adult, please. Start by dealing with the population of Earth, now. Many are killing each other, many others are starving. Some of those who are surviving, are fighting with their governments. We have a crazy planet here, where strong people can barely survive. Where those strong enough to speak out for human rights are sacrificed by their government. Let us level the playing field a little bit so those who are born on Earth, have a chance to survive.
15 months ago: TO - Talk to the hand.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
15 months ago: There was also a time when the elderly and infirm were dragged out onto the ice to freeze to death or into the woods to be eaten by wild animals. The defenseless people were killed or neglected to the point that they died.

Exercising responsibility has the same population impact as abortion. Don't get pregnant and you won't add another person to an overpopulated planet.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
15 months ago: The point is that right wing religious whack jobs will always say that abortion is killing innocent children...when in reality it is not killing anything because in order to be killed said thing must first be alive...which is simply not the case when it comes to first trimester abortion.
15 months ago: PH - you are just an ignorant man. Ask her.

You know NOTHING.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
15 months ago: Hi PH.

Should abortion be covered as part of the health care bill? Should liposuction be covered also?

Both are just unwanted tissue, right?
Altruist
Altruist
Eugene, OR
15 months ago: The question is not whether abortion should be covered by the Health Care Bill. It will not be, and that possibility is already covered by two laws.

Abortion is a difficult decision for most women and should not be considered just another form of contraception. Most Democrats think abortion should be rare and only used in extreme cases like rape and if the woman's life is in danger. They think that you can reduce the number of abortions through education, contraception, and caring for the women who get pregnant and their children so they don't consider abortion because of their desperate financial situations.

That is why the number of abortions are reduced in most Democratic administrations and increased in most Republican administrations, because Republicans oppose the alternatives to abortion.

They oppose ALL contraception and they oppose ALL sex education. Currently they are waging war against contraception by trying to end all funding for Title X. They also oppose the safety net, WIC programs and any other aid to the poor.

The question should be whether alternatives to abortion should be covered. The Affordable Care Act tries to reduce medical costs by encouraging prevention. It should also encourage alternatives to abortion to reduce their numbers.

Republicans apparently care nothing for the lives of the women because they value the fetus more than the mothers, and apparently they want more abortions because elimination of the alternatives will increase the number of abortions.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
15 months ago: Al
That's just preposterous. We know that you think everything is the fault of the Republicans, your political enemy.

Truth is, most Democrats think abortion on demand is a form of contraception, and a way to keep undesirable elements from reproducing. That is why they are so in favor of unlimited immigration, because they have aborted their voting base.

And Republicans think that having babies should not be a job opportunity. Many underpriveledged women think they can have a few babies and get paid for it for the next 20 years or so. What the Republicans think is that these women should be made to contribute something to the society they are beholden to.
15 months ago: Good one.
BadCyborg
BadCyborg
San Antonio, TX
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BadCyborg
BadCyborg
San Antonio, TX
15 months ago: Couldn't have said it better m'self, OOTB. Kudos for saying it.

Birth control and contraception are not - necessarily - the same thing. Prophylactics, the pill, abstinence - all qualify as contraception. IUDs, morning-after pills, abortion - those are BIRTH control. All such technologies keep the conceived unborn from being born but they do nothing to prevent conception.
15 months ago: IUDs and the morning-after pill work the exact same way the pill does. It's just taken in a different form. Both PREVENT conception by

1. altering the menstrual cycle to delay ovulation
2. inhibiting ovulation or
3. irritating the uterine lining to prevent implantation

Unless you believe that life begins from the moment of fertilization, these methods would, by your standards, be "birth control." If you believe that life begins at conception, the definition of conception is when a fertilized egg is implanted on the uterine wall. Which is precisely what these methods prevent. In any case, IUDs and the morning after pill work exactly the same way and accomplish the same task that "the pill" does.

Do your research.
kelsxo
kelsxo
Edgewater, FL
15 months ago: I agree with all of what you said, I couldn't of said it better myself.
15 months ago: Both sides are whacked.

The Dem want abortion on demand for any circumstance which is in essence saying "be irresponsible and we have your back."

On the flip too many (not ALL Al) Repubs don't take into consideration the alternative support for the mother to make sure the death of the baby is avoided and the mother gets the help she needs to make the right choice.
Altruist
Altruist
Eugene, OR
15 months ago: Abortion is not so much a political phenomenon but an economic one.

In any society throughout the world, when people make enough money to have access to birth control, and enough education to understand basic processes, they voluntarily limit the size of their families.

Not having 13 kids means that half of them won't starve to death or die from unsanitary conditions. Birth control allows the family make ends meet and have some dignity and become productive members of society.

In most of the developed nations this voluntary limitation of birth rates has led to situations where there is not enough labor. It is in the best interest of those developed nations to invite in workers from the undeveloped nations where the opposite is the norm. A comprehensive immigration program would be of benefit to all nations.

The myth of welfare mothers who have kids so they can live off the welfare funds is not true. Most people would like to get out of the vicious cycle of dependence and become productive workers. It is true that abortions are much more common in the ghettos and in minority areas. There they realize that another mouth to feed crushes their chances to move up in the world.

Democrats want to reduce these situations by providing better education, jobs, and health care so they do not have to resort to abortions and they can escape the cycle of poverty and crime. Most (not all) Republicans have already written them off and just want to put them all in prison but don't want to pay for the prisons.
15 months ago: This is all a bunch of bunk.

Politics really needs to take a back seat to a larger issue. That issue is moral responsibility and accountability on the part of the individual.

Fact is, if women and men would exhibit some self control, this issue would not be the problem that it is. The problem is not politics, the problem is irresponsible people that want an easy way out.

Dems blame Repubs and Repubs blame the Dems. Meanwhile folk just keep screwin' around with no sense of taking responsibility. Baby gets caught in the crossfire.

Sucky situation. Sick one too.
kelsxo
kelsxo
Edgewater, FL
15 months ago: The thing is people need to stop worrying about other peoples business and what they do with THEIR bodies.
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Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
15 months ago: I want to stand 100 feet over a large crowd of people jump. Should I be allowed? Its my body.
15 months ago: That's a stupid comment.

Even on a liberal slant, first trimester baby is NOT your body.

Baby has arms and legs, own heart beat, own blood type, own DNA, own nervous system and own brain. The BABY CAN FEEL PAIN. Did you know that or do you not even care? Selfishness.

Legal murder is still murder. You may have the right but it is still WRONG.

Irresponsible people sound just like you. Grow up and think like an adult for a change. Time for you to think about someone other than yourself. It's attitudes like yours that are part of the problem not part of the solution.
15 months ago: The point of this post, if I am not mistaken, was to point out the efforts currently being mad to redefine rape. The bill has been worded so that women may not have an abortion if they have been raped unless the rape was "forced". This would not include statutory or "coerced" rape. Rape is rape is rape. A woman does not need to be brutally beaten to constitute "forced" rape. All rape is forced.

The bill would also not allow women who NEED an abortion to save their life, to have access to one.

Whether or not you as an individual feel that abortions should be covered by public money is somewhat of an entirely separate matter. The bill would redefine and re-stigmatize rape. Which is totally unacceptable.

http://pol.moveon.org/smithbill/?r_by=-1...
15 months ago: I hear that.

Kelsxo took it to another place, so I met her there. I stand by all that I've posted in response to the inane comments that followed.

Rape and mother's danger are one thing. I said that from the get go.

Abortion for contraception is an entirely different ball game. That's irresponsible and sick.

The government should not fund killing babies in response to adult irresponsibility and poor choices of who folks screw around with. That's part of the problem not the solution.
15 months ago: I couldn't agree with you more.
BadCyborg
BadCyborg
San Antonio, TX
15 months ago: Can't sign off on abortion for rape. Support the mother-to-be in every way needed - by a PRIVATE CHARITY not a govt. handout - and encourage her to give a couple the most precious possible. Why punish the child for its father's misdeeds?

Decades ago I determined that if I ever found myself that terrible double-avoidance scenario of having to choose between my wife and my unborn child, I would choose my wife. If it truly comes down to an abortion being needed to save the mother's life then I choose the adult over the unborn - OK so I am an "adult chauvinist". Sue me. But the percentage of cases where that is actually the case is vanishingly small.

Abortion is NOT "CONTRACEPTION"!!! As I wrote above, it is birth control but it is most definitely and emphatically NOT contraception.

Oh, and to any African Americans who read this. Planned Parenthood was formed as a vehicle for slow genocide of what its founder considered to be "the lesser races". Don't believe me? Look at where their centers are located.

And consider this. Before Roe-v-Wade 90% of Black babies were born to a functioning, 2-parent home. Now over ONE THIRD of black babies are slaughtered before they can take a breath and the ones who are carried to term are much more likely to be reared in a single-parent home. Thank the oh-so-caring-and-compassionate left for that.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
15 months ago: I have to agree with the robotic miscreant. But I'm still wishy washy. After all, a life is life, whether by rape or by consent. If we intend to help protect the lives of the defenseless unborn, why would it be any different to kill only the ones that are unlucky enough to be the product of a rape? If anyone should die for this, it should be the rapist.

Curiosity has me wondering exactly how many pregnancies are the result of rape. That number has to an extremely small percentage of the 1.3 million abortions performed each year in the US. It sounds like a distraction from the original issue of elective abortion being made an entitlement. It also makes me wonder how many women would cry rape if that became the only excuse for a state funded abortion.

Sugar Pop
99% of the time, statutory rape is not rape at all. It results from two young people making irresponsible or uninformed decisions, but with the full consent of both parties. I haven't heard of the bill you mentioned that would make a life threatening pregnancy abortion non-covered. Could you show it to me?
15 months ago: @ OOTB
Statutory rape means "rape according to the statutes" or laws. It is inherently different from the traditional mala en se type of rape we usually think of; a woman forced to have sex without consent or against her will. Statutory rape is rape due to an alleged lack of consent via a supposed lack of maturity to make such an adult decision (having sex). So weather or not sex involving a minor is rape may be debatable, but according to the laws of our land it is. Here is a link describing the bill.

http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/01/...

@ BadCyborg
I agree that if any party should die in the case of rape it should be the rapist. However, the physical, mental, and emotional anguish experienced by rape survivors is incredibly severe and interferes with every aspect and in the quality of every day life. It takes a very long time, sometimes years, to learn to cope with life after rape and in extreme cases an individual may never be able to move on. Pregnancy is often not only physically, but mentally and emotionally draining as well, especially when the pregnancy was not planned. Marrying the two experiences is asking a woman to undergo severe mental and emotional anguish, and sacrifice her well being and her body to house a child that not only does she not want, but it stands as a constant reminder of the horrible ordeal that she lived through. How can she begin to heal from the rape in such a situation?

What a torturous experience to ask someone to live through.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
15 months ago: I had to go to the source. I really didn't want to get a slanted left or right analysis of the bills contents.

Rep. Chris Smith, R-N.J.

"The use of the term 'forcible' was not intended to change the meaning of the time-tested protections and exceptions currently contained in the Hyde amendment. To avoid any confusion and to expedite the effort to permanently prevent taxpayers from being complicit in abortion and abortion coverage, we are restoring the text to reflect the exceptions for rape and incest included in the Hyde amendment."
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
15 months ago: OK, I found the bill. H.R. 3 "No Taxpayer Funding for Abortion Act"
Official summary
(Currently, federal funds cannot be used for abortion services and plans receiving federal funds must keep federal funds segregated from any funds for abortion services.) Disallows any tax benefits for amounts paid or incurred for an abortion or for a health benefits plan that includes coverage of abortion, including any medical deduction for such amounts or any credit for such an employer-sponsored plan. Prohibits the inclusion of abortion in any health care service furnished by a federal or District of Columbia health care facility or by any physician or other individual employed by the federal government or the District. Provides that such prohibitions shall not apply to an abortion if:
(1) the pregnancy is the result of forcible rape or, if the pregnant woman is a minor, incest; or
(2) the woman suffers from a physical disorder, injury, or illness, including a life-endangering physical condition caused by or arising from the pregnancy itself, that would place her in danger of death unless an abortion is performed, as certified by a physician. Makes such prohibitions applicable to District funds.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
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15 months ago: "The thing is people need to stop worrying about other peoples business and what they do with THEIR bodies."

It's a skewed premise like that which can cloud the whole issue. This "argument" is still peddled as if it has validity when it has non whatsoever.

People need to be educated so they know the ALL facts.

It's unfortunate that we have a machine of an abortion industry. An murderous industry which is not trying to protect women's rights at all. What they are looking to do is make money. $$$$$. Okay?? And along the rat bastards are attempting to target and exterminate undesirables. They don't care about their victims, born or unborn at all. Anyone who thinks that they do is being duped and the only one they are fooling is themselves.

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