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The USA was formed as a Christian Nation

Posted 31 months ago|51 comments|803 views
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The United States of America was formed by Christians seeking to spread Christianity throughout the world. Period. You are sadly mistaken if you assert otherwise. History shows it, for example, look at the following decision.
The Supreme Court of the United States, in RECTOR, ETC., OF HOLY TRINITY CHURCH v. UNITED STATES, in 1892, stated:

"...But, beyond all these matters, no purpose of action against religion can be imputed to any legislation, state or national, because this is a religious people. This is historically true. From the discovery of this continent to the present hour, there is a single voice making this affirmation. The commission to Christopher Columbus, prior to his sail westward, is from ‘Ferdinand and Isabella, by the grace of God, king and queen of Castile,’ etc., and recites that ‘it is hoped that by God's assistance some of the continents and islands in the ocean will be discovered,’ etc. The first colonial grant, that made to Sir Walter Raleigh in 1584, was from ‘Elizabeth, by the grace of God, of England, Fraunce and Ireland, queene, defender of the faith,’ etc.; and the grant authorizing him to enact statutes of the government of the proposed colony provided that ‘they be not against the true Christian faith nowe professed in the Church of England.’ The first charter of Virginia, granted by King James I. in 1606, after reciting the application of certain parties for a charter, commenced the grant in these words: ‘We, greatly commending, and graciously accepting of, their Desires for the Furtherance of so noble a Work, which may, by the Providence of Almighty God, hereafter tend to the Glory of his Divine Majesty, in propagating of Christian Religion to such People, as yet live in Darkness and miserable Ignorance of the true Knowledge and Worship of God, and may in time bring the Infidels and Savages, living in those parts, to human Civility, and to a settled and quiet Government; DO, by these our Letters-Patents, graciously accept of, and agree to, their humble and well-intended Desires.’

Language of similar import may be found in the subsequent charters of that colony, from the same king, in 1609 and 1611; and the same is true of the various charters granted to the other colonies. In language more or less emphatic is the establishment of the Christian religion declared to be one of the purposes of the grant. The celebrated compact made by the pilgrims in the Mayflower, 1620, recites: ‘Having undertaken for the Glory of God, and Advancement of the Christian Faith, and the Honour of our King and Country, a Voyage to plant the first Colony in the northern Parts of Virginia; Do by these Presents, solemnly and mutually, in the Presence of God and one another, covenant and combine ourselves together into a civil Body Politick, for our better Ordering and Preservation, and Furtherance of the Ends aforesaid.’

The fundamental orders of Connecticut, under which a provisional government was instituted in 1638-39, commence with this declaration: ‘Forasmuch as it hath pleased the Allmighty God by the wise disposition of his diuyne pruidence *467 so to Order and dispose of things that we the Inhabitants and Residents of Windsor, Hartford, and Wethersfield are now cohabiting and dwelling in and vppon the River of Conectecotte and the Lands thereunto adioyneing; And well knowing where a people are gathered togather the word of **515 God requires that to mayntayne the peace and vnion of such a people there should be an orderly and decent Gouerment established according to God, to order and dispose of the affayres of the people at all seasons as occation shall require; doe therefore assotiate and conioyne our selues to be as one Publike State or Comonwelth; and doe, for our selues and our Successors and such as shall be adioyned to vs att any tyme hereafter, enter into Combination and Confederation togather, to mayntayne and presearue the liberty and purity of the gospell of our Lord Jesus wch we now prfesse, as also the disciplyne of the Churches, wch according to the truth of the said gospell is now practised amongst vs.’
In the charter of privileges granted by William Penn to the province of Pennsylvania, in 1701, it is recited: ‘Because no People can be truly happy, though under the greatest Enjoyment of Civil Liberties, if abridged of the Freedom of their Consciences, as to their Religious Profession and Worship; And Almighty God being the only Lord of Conscience, Father of Lights and Spirits; and the Author as well as Object of all divine Knowledge, Faith, and Worship, who only doth enlighten the Minds, and persuade and convince the Understandings of People, I do hereby grant and declare,’ etc.
Coming nearer to the present time, the declaration of independence recognizes the presence of the Divine in human affairs in these words: ‘We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that thet are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness.’ ‘We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare,’ etc.; ‘And for the *468 support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the Protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor.’

If we examine the constitutions of the various states, we find in them a constant recognition of religious obligations. Every constitution of every one of the 44 states contains language which, either directly or by clear implication, recognizes a profound reverence for religion, and an assumption that its influence in all human affairs is essential to the well-being of the community. This recognition may be in the preamble, such as is found in the constitution of Illinois, 1870: ‘We, the people of the state of Illinois, grateful to Almighty God for the civil, political, and religious liberty which He hath so long permitted us to enjoy, and looking to Him for a blessing upon our endeavors to secure and transmit the same unimpaired to succeeding generations,’ etc.
It may be only in the familiar requisition that all officers shall take an oath closing with the declaration, ‘so help me God.’ It may be in clauses like that of the constitution of Indiana, 1816, art. 11, § 4: ‘The manner of administering an oath or affirmation shall be such as is most consistent with the conscience of the deponent, and shall be esteemed the most solemn appeal to God.’ Or in provisions such as are found in articles 36 and 37 of the declaration of rights of the constitution of Maryland, (1867:) ‘That, as it is the duty of every man to worship God in such manner as he thinks most acceptable to Him, all persons are equally entitled to protection in their religious liberty: wherefore, no person ought, by any law, to be molested in his person or estate on account of his religious persuasion or profession, or for his religious practice, unless, under the color of religion, he shall disturb the good order, peace, or safety of the state, or shall infringe the laws of morality, or injure others in their natural, civil, or religious rights; nor ought any person to be compelled to frequent or maintain or contribute, unless on contract, to maintain any place of worship or any ministry; nor shall any person, otherwise competent, be deemed incompetent as a witness or juror on account of his religious belief: provided, he *469 believes in the existence of God, and that, under his dispensation, such person will be held morally accountable for his acts, and be rewarded or punished therefor, either in this world or the world to come. That no religious test ought ever to be required as a qualification for any office of profit or trust in this state, other than a declaration of belief in the existence of God; nor shall the legislature prescribe any other oath of office than the oath prescribed by this constitution.’ Or like that in articles 2 and 3 of part 1 of the constitution of Massachusetts, (1780:) ‘It is the right as well as the duty of all men in society publicly, and at stated seasons, to worship the Supreme Being, the great Creator and Preserver of the universe. * * * As the happiness of a people and the good order and preservation of civil government essentially depend upon piety, religion, and morality, and as these cannot be generally diffused through a community but by the institution of the public worship of God and of public instructions in piety, religion, and morality: Therefore, to promote their happiness, and to secure the good order and preservation of their government, the people of this commonwealth have a right to invest their legislature with power to authorize and require, and the legislature shall, from time to time, authorize and require, the several towns, parishes, precincts, and other bodies politic or religious societies to make suitable provision, at their own expense, for the institution of the public worship of God and for the support and maintenance of public Protestant teachers of piety, religion, and morality, in all cases where such provision shall not be made voluntarily.’ Or, as in sections 5 and 14 of article 7 of the constitution of Mississippi, (1832:) ‘No person who denies the being of a God, or a future state of rewards and punishments, shall hold any office in the civil de partment of this state. * * * Religion **516 morality, and knowledge being necessary to good government, the preservation of liberty, and the happiness of mankind, schools, and the means of education, shall forever be encouraged in this state.’ Or by article 22 of the constitution of Delaware, (1776,) which required all officers, besides an oath of allegiance, to make and subscribe the following declaration: ‘I, A. B., do profess *470 faith in God the Father, and in Jesus Christ His only Son, and in the Holy Ghost, one God, blessed for evermore; and I do acknowledge the Holy Scriptures of the Old and New Testament to be given by divine inspiration.’

Even the constitution of the United States, which is supposed to have little touch upon the private life of the individual, contains in the first amendment a declaration common to the constitutions of all the states, as follows: ‘Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,’ etc.,-and also provides in article 1, § 7, (a provision common to many constitutions,) that the executive shall have 10 days (Sundays excepted) within which to determine whether he will approve or veto a bill.
There is no dissonance in these declarations. There is a universal language pervading them all, having one meaning. They affirm and reaffirm that this is a religious nation. These are not individual sayings, declarations of private persons. They are organic utterances. They speak the voice of the entire people. While because of a general recognition of this truth the question has seldom been presented to the courts, yet we find that in Updegraph v. Com., 11 Serg. & R. 394, 400, it was decided that, ‘Christianity, general Christianity, is, and always has been, a part of the common law of Pennsylvania; * * * not Christianity with an established church and tithes and spiritual courts, but Christianity with liberty of conscience to all men.’ And in People v. Ruggles, 8 Johns. 290, 294, 295, Chancellor KENT, the great commentator on American law, speaking as chief justice of the supreme court of New York, said: ‘The people of this state, in common with the people of this country, profess the general doctrines of Christianity as the rule of their faith and practice; and to scandalize the author of these doctrines is not only, in a religious point of view, extremely impious, but, even in respect to the obligations due to society, is a gross violation of decency and good order. * * * The free, equal, and undisturbed enjoyment of religious opinion, whatever it may be, and free and decent discussions on any religious *471 subject, is granted and secured; but to revile, with malicious and blasphemous contempt, the religion professed by almost the whole community is an abuse of that right. Nor are we bound by any expressions in the constitution, as some have strangely supposed, either not to punish at all, or to panish indiscriminately the like attacks upon the religion of Mahomet or of the Grand Lama; and for this plain reason, that the case assumes that we are a Christian people, and the morality of the country is deeply ingrafted upon Christianity, and not upon the doctrines or worship of those impostors.’ And in the famous case of Vidal v. Girard's Ex'rs, 2 How. 127, 198, this court, while sustaining the will of Mr. Girard, with its provision for the creation of a college into which no minister should be permitted to enter, observed: ‘It is also said, and truly, that the Christian religion is a part of the common law of Pennsylvania.’
If we pass beyond these matters to a view of American life, as expressed by its laws, its business, its customs, and its society, we find every where a clear recognition of the same truth. Among other matters note the following: The form of oath universally prevailing, concluding with an appeal to the Almighty; the custom of opening sessions of all deliberative bodies and most conventions with prayer; the prefatory words of all wills, ‘In the name of God, amen;’ the laws respecting the observance of the Sabbath, with the general cessation of all secular business, and the closing of courts, legislatures, and other similar public assemblies on that day; the churches and church organizations which abound in every city, town, and hamlet; the multitude of charitable organizations existing every where under Christian auspices; the gigantic missionary associations, with general support, and aiming to establish Christian missions in every quarter of the globe.
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COMMENTS
31 months ago: Wow... when I have a free day and a half, I'll go ahead and try to knock this one out. Until then...
31 months ago: Leanne:
Sorry. I edited out a bunch of the Court's decision.
There is much, more proof of our country's Christian history.
31 months ago: Really? See what the "founding fathers" had to say about the bible and Christianity...

And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors.
-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823

Among the sayings and discourses imputed to him [Jesus] by his biographers, I find many passages of fine imagination, correct morality, and of the most lovely benevolence; and others again of so much ignorance, so much absurdity, so much untruth, charlatanism, and imposture, as to pronounce it impossible that such contradictions should have proceeded from the same being.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Short, April 13, 1820


31 months ago: Jefferson again:
"Christianity...(has become) the most perverted system that ever shone on man. ...Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and importers led by Paul,
the first great corrupter of the teaching of Jesus."

"The clergy converted the simple teachings of Jesus into an engine for enslaving mankind and adulterated by artificial constructions into a contrivance to filch wealth and power to themselves...these clergy, in fact,
constitute the real Anti-Christ.

31 months ago: John Adams:
"Where do we find a precept in the Bible for Creeds, Confessions, Doctrines and Oaths, and whole carloads of other trumpery that we find religion encumbered with in these days?"

"The doctrine of the divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity."

31 months ago: Adams signed the Treaty of Tripoli. Article 11 states:

*"The Government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion."**


Thomas Paine:
"I would not dare to so dishonor my Creator God by attaching His name to that book (the Bible)." "Among the most detestable villains in history, you could not find one worse than Moses. Here is an order, attributed to 'God' to butcher the boys, to massacre the mothers and to debauch and rape the daughters. I would not dare so dishonor my Creator's name by (attaching) it to this filthy book (the Bible)."

"It is the duty of every true Deist to vindicate the moral justice of God against the evils of the Bible."

"Accustom a people to believe that priests and clergy can forgive sins...and you will have sins in abundance."
And; "The Christian church has set up a religion of pomp and revenue in pretended imitation of a person (Jesus) who lived a life of poverty."


James Madison:
"What influence in fact have Christian ecclesiastical establishments had on civil society? In many instances they have been upholding the thrones of political tyranny. In no instance have they been seen as the guardians
of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wished to subvert the public liberty have found in the clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate liberty, does not need the clergy." Madison objected to state-supported chaplains in Congress and to the exemption of churches
from taxation. He wrote:

"Religion and government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together."

These founding fathers were a reflection of the American population. Having escaped from the state-established religions of Europe, only 7% of the people in the 13 colonies belonged to a church when the Declaration of Independence was signed.





31 months ago: Sheesh, zoolady...

Did you major in "anti-christian statements" or what!?! Or did you just google this all just now? I wouldn't even know where to BEGIN if I wanted to find so many anti-christian statements...
31 months ago: Zoolady:

While you and I disagree completely on the premise that the United States of America was founded as a Christian Nation to spread Christianity, you will be surprised how you and I may agree (a little) on what happened thereafter, including some of those quotes above.... like a certain "scientist" may have been sadly mistaken.....

I have a whole lot more support that is coming up. I hope you are not done.

But, it's bedtime in my neck of the woods, and I'm not giving up......
31 months ago: Redstateguy, you can disagree as much as you like, whatever the evidence, if you are satisfied with being wrong.

Was the USA Christian 500 years before the redcoats turned up? Hint: There was no USA back then.

The 1600s colonies of the British Crown are not the USA.

If you think the colonies of the British Crown are the USA, I hope you recognize QE II as your monarch.

You are welcome to understand that Christians (members of the virtual monopoly religion in Europe at the time) settled on the continent of North America before the USA came into being.


Many of the founding fathers were Deists who understood the separation of church and state.
Mecca  Anon
Mecca Anon
Clearwater, FL
31 months ago: Hey Jack, I agree with you here. Deism was very popular especially among the educated during the period and before.It didn't really get into the general pubic until Paine published "The Age of Reason" in the late 1700s.

Also;
Ferdinand and Isabella were not Christian, they were Catholic (unless you happen to think Catholicism and Christianity are the same thing.)

JAK Gladney
JAK Gladney
Saint Albans, WV
31 months ago: I'm not sure what messages like this are driving at. Were many of these people Christian in their personal preferences? No doubt. But to extrapolate from that that they thought it proper to evangelize as a matter of policy? That's a real stretch. Wearing your religion on your shirtsleeve is a more modern phenomenon, and I'd suggest that the religion of our founders differs radically from your own, red.

zoolady is right to post comments from the founders' private correspondence--they're much more insightful. Remember that these men were politicians, and no more at liberty to express unpopular or unconventional religious viewpoints than politicians in our own age.
31 months ago: I disagree with the "disingenous" comment and state strongly that these comments I've quoted are NOT specifically "anti-Christian." They were written by men who were among the signers of the original documents and I quoted them to demonstrate their feelings about why we would NOT be "a Christian nation." Let's just make this easy...anyone who thinks this WAS founded as a Christian nation can show me documents to that effect. I realize many of that faith WISH it were so...but it is NOT so. Meanwhile, I'll quote good old John Adams again (who certainly had cause to know about these things)...

Adams signed the Treaty of Tripoli. Article 11 states:

*"The Government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion."**

31 months ago: Zoolady and JAK:
Don't you wish!
Disingenuous?
Look who's calling the kettle black.
From the beginnings of exploration from Europe, Christianity was the driving force. (That's my next Rave coming soon.) You 2 are latching on to certain exceptions

Gregorie:
Nice quote!

Meca:
Who are you kidding?
Catholics understand Jesus was the son of God. Spreading Christianity was the driving force in exploration.

You athiests or deists or whatever you want to be labeled are grasping at straws. More will follow.
31 months ago: And how come you doubters are avoiding what the US Supreme Court said?
Why not address the specific legal findings of the Supreme Court?
YOU CANNOT HANDLE THE TRUTH!
31 months ago: Red, you have no idea what my theology or religion or lack of religion might be, so please don't sling labels around. People often use labels and insults when they've no logical argument.

History is important in this discussion, so let's look at it. The Pilgrims came to ESCAPE religious persecution. The British followed looking for trade and economic benefits. None of them were looking for evangelical opportunities. The Catholics expansion into Mexico and South America was driven as a lust for gold. It's true that they practiced their own "become a Christian or we'll kill you" kind of loving religion, but theis was NOT the founding principle behind the creation of our country.

Frankly, I don't care if early explorers were Catholic, Protestant or HINDU...this nation was not founded on Christianity. Surely you don't propose that democracy didn't exist outside the idea of religion? Democratic principles go back to ancient Greece, which was hardly a Christian nation.

Gregoire...what do your posts have to do with the subject--the U.S. founded as a Christian nation?

31 months ago: RSG, In the time of discovery, that period when Columbus and others sailed the far reaches of the seas, every voyage and every act was basically under control of “the Church”. EVERYTHING they did was, “by the grace of God” or “in Gods name” or “for the Church”, EVERYTHING, they didn’t take a dump without acknowledging their religion. Why was this? Was it because the actively acted to spread the Christian religion or was it simpler, they did things and in order to do those things, they had to pay homage to the religion that controlled their very lives? I say they did things and paid homage because that was how an individual got around the limitations of being a commoner instead of royalty.

If you were royalty, it was because God appointed you to that station in life. You didn’t need approval to spend vast sums of the country’s money on a voyage, you could do it without even asking, or you could send some one like Columbus, who would kowtow to your bidding because he didn’t have the money to do it on his own, nor did he have Gods ear to whisper into at his leisure like a prince, king or queen, after all, they were selected by God Himself.
31 months ago: I find your argument shortsighted for citing all the references to God as proof that the purpose was to found a Christian nation simply because, that was how they did everything back then, they made reference to their religion and or God because everything they did was under the control of “THE CHURCH”. If your life was as regulated by your church, you too would cite them in everything you do, say, write or otherwise convey to others. Since it is not, or doesn’t seem to be, you don’t. You also have no fear of being called out ridiculed or strung up for not making such a declaration, one of the benefits of living in this country that does not promote a state religion, something all those discoverers of past centuries cannot claim as they were all working under the benefit of a state religion and the king or queen who granted their request to make the voyage, who also had to kowtow to “The Church”.

Zoolady, keep talking, you have some good stuff.
31 months ago: Mecca Anon, Catholics are still considered Christian as opposed to being Jewish, or Islamic. I agree with your premise and do not consider their methods acceptable because they usurp powers they were not granted to man but they still follow the basic Christian beliefs so you have to lump them in with the rest of the sinners (all believers in a religion are sinners otherwise, what’s the point?).
31 months ago: Six..you've got the idea. Let's consider which Europeans REALLY discovered the country--VIKINGS! Are we all Norse? Do we worship ODIN? Not bloody likely! We're not Puritans, either. There's some evidence that ancient Egyptians had contact with the eastern coast of So. America...do we all bow to HATHOR? HORUS? RA? And anyone who's seen the Olmec art of southern Mexico knows Africans visited here, too. ANIMISM, anyone? Finally, pottery found in Ecuador was created in ancient Japan. SHINTO doesn't seem to have a big hold on us, does it?

Red, show us where the Supreme Court ruled that this nation was founded as Christian.

I'm waiting.
YammeringBuoy
YammeringBuoy
31 months ago: And Christianity is a pagan religion (see the Assyrians and their Jewish slaves for it's roots). Christianity has been used as a tool to rally forces for the purpose of acquiring more riches by the Rich as they cried it is God's will!
Gimme a break with this fascist rant of yours. If ours was a "Christian" state then I doubt the Founders would've included phraseology such as Freedom of religion.
Your stupefying I gotta tell ya. Does reality ever enter your consciousness or those Mars bars from the school vending machines keeping it at bay?
31 months ago: Zoolady:
We agree on a few things.
1. I get fired up and spew at times. To the extent is detracts from my rant, I apologize.
2. History is very, very important. Our country started out as a Republic, NOT a democracy. Liberals/socialists have warped our Republic into a democracy. History is a 2 way street.
Are we reading the same decision? I admit, I am looking at this topic through my red tinted glasses, but the English I learned reveals the US Supreme Court viewed our country as a Christian nation.
Sixholdens:

Christianity was a driving force to expand beyond the shores of Europe. One reason was the Muslims were invading eastern Europe and started to scare western European Christians. (That is my next Rave.)
Also, you like zoolady and yak are ignoring the US Supreme Court's finding that this was a Christian Nation founded as a Christian Nation to spread Christianity "to every quarter of the globe."
If it was just me asserting that, you probably would have earned some merit badges; but, it is not only lowly me.
Will any one of you address the reasoning of the US Supreme Court in 1892?
You guys can rationalize all you want; however, why don't you guys really consider the possibility?
Can you guys take off your blue tinted glasses? (I know the answer to that.)
You guys are rationalizing and reading the minds of a bunch of centuries old dead people. You libs/socialists cannot help yourself. You rewrite history to fit into your smug, little world.

YammeringBuoy:
While I struggle every day to understand, God loves you just as much as anyone ever in the world.
JAK Gladney
JAK Gladney
Saint Albans, WV
31 months ago: red, red, red...

I don't know what you were thinking with a title like, "The USA Was Formed As A Christian Nation." On this site, that's like throwing chum into a shark tank.

Jefferson thought the miracles of the New Testament so absurd that he left them out of his own version of the bible. His letter to the Danbury Baptists makes his position on state-support, or seeming to endorse one religion at the expense of others, crystal clear (his original draft included the phrase "eternal wall of separation"). His correspondence with John Adams is loaded with church criticism, and Adams answered in kind. James Madison--a man trained for the seminary!--stated that "the religious opinions of each man should be relegated to the conscience of each man."

American self-government is based on wide philosophical legacy: Magna Carta, country whig thought, naturalism. These were men of the Enlightenment Era--big, wide ranging thinkers--and for you to shrink their religious and philosophical perspectives to suit your own narrow beliefs is really, really disingenuous. Or uninformed. If it's the latter, then broaden your readings in American history. You don't have to "read the minds of centuries old dead people"--they're pretty frank on these subjects, if you'll just seek them out.

YammeringBuoy
YammeringBuoy
31 months ago: Again bite me with the god loves you holier than thou crap, it's hollow and you mean not a bit of it.
You wouldn't stoop to care for anyone at any time unless some mores or other was in place to guide you, like a child you pick and chose your information and the logic you spew. And like a child your afraid of so much in this world needing guidance while others of us will actually act christ-like and do good work without needing to be told nor without a church behind us, unafraid of giving to the community that is humankind without thinking what do I get out of this. Your a danger in ways you can't comprehend and rich men die just as poor as any other.
31 months ago: Red, I don't know how old you are or what your education is..but I DO know this. Nothing you have posted in ANY way supports your original post.

You say "Christianity was a driving force...." blah blah blah. OK..perhaps the evangelicals decided to imprison/murder the natives in the name of Jesus so they could EXPLOIT the riches of the "new world," but, there is no proof whatsoever in your assertion that this nation "was FOUNDED as a CHRISTIAN nation."

Show us anything in the Constitution/Declaration which clearly states that THIS NATION IS FOUNDED ON CHRISTIAN PRINCIPLES.

Read what JAK has written. Then read it again. He's right.

You're wrong.
31 months ago: YAK:
Wait till the next post.

YABBER:
If you did not think yourself Christlike, I would almost feel sorry for you.

ZOO:
It's fun hitting liberal/socialist/Marxist's nerves. Please keep reading and commenting.
31 months ago: Red, you're not adding anything except labels to this discussion. I've asked at least twice for documented proof of your assertion in our founding documents. You've responded with labels ("liberal/socialist/Marxist") which are your obvious attempt to be clever but are actually meaningless and inaccurate.

Are you in school? I suggest you spend time learning what those terms REALLY mean, since you obviously don't understand them. Then, you should learn to apply genuine logic when you set out to debate something. Trying to insult people is useless and only makes you look illogical.

I'm done with you.
31 months ago: Sleep well.
31 months ago: It's as plain as the nose on your face. You are blinded by your blue tinted glasses.
Mecca  Anon
Mecca Anon
Clearwater, FL
31 months ago: Redstarteguy said;

Meca:
Who are you kidding?
Catholics understand Jesus was the son of God. Spreading Christianity was the driving force in exploration.

Au contraire. Christianity was not the driving force for exploration, it was often the excuse. Greed, lust for power and the innate desire to go places no one has gone before were all factors and stronger (I think) than a desire to convert the "heathens." There is nothing else than having god on your side when going tout to enrich yourself.

The Norse knew of the new world, explored chunks of it, they were not Christian. The Portuguese very likely know of the new world long before Columbus "discovered it," they were Christian. There have been non-Christian explorers since the dawn of time. Some have used the religions excuse, many have not.

Also; Catholicism of the type that was practiced during the middle ages and the early Renaissance is a far cry from what you probably practice. It's about as different as your religion and Islam (which is a religion that also believes in Jesus.)
31 months ago: Mecca:
Oh come on.
How do all you guys know what "did not" motivate explorers?
How can you guys say Christianity was just an excuse?
Lief Erickson was a Christian. He had a minister on his ship.
Muslims do not believe Jesus was the son of God.
Muslims believe is was just a prophet.
Mecca  Anon
Mecca Anon
Clearwater, FL
31 months ago: The question is more pointed, how do you know what motivated early explores?

So far as I know, there is no particular passage in the Bible telling followers to explore the Earth and claim it for Jesus is there? The Puritans (for example) pretty much hijacked their ship and forced people to settle in New England when their intended landing area was far south. They left England via Holland because they practiced a radical form of Christianity and had trouble assimilating with more mainstream beliefs. The impolitic way of saying this is, “they were a cult and got booted out of Europe."

It is documented fact that the Spanish expeditions to the New World were predominately motivated by a search for wealth in the form of gold, slaves and new trade routes. Columbus (for example) was looking for routes to India so he could get into the lucrative spice trade. His motivations were almost purely commercial.I was taught how explorers and pioneers were motivated by some higher calling too, when examined closely this generally boils down to people desiring land/new markets/goods/ etc. All were in short supply at the end of the Renaissance

Some good stuff at -
http://www.enchantedlearning.com/explorers/namerica.shtml

Leif Erickson's "conversion" to Christianity is controversial at best and according to some accounts, it happened long after his adventures on the North American Continent.
YammeringBuoy
YammeringBuoy
31 months ago: Do you ever read the words or just quickly skim over them for content. I said act christ-like NOT are christ-like, also note the use of lower case words here.
Speaking of tinted glasses, what ever the color, I see now zoolady has come to the conclusion also to relieve herself of you, at what point do you get that 1. you sound an idiot when interacting in conversation, 2. your a palinist when debating (garbled in thought), 3. bad at this and are not helping any cause you speak for, in fact it has an opposite effect, 4. need a better source of education than wherever your getting it now.
Later ding-dong, slept fine thanks.
31 months ago: Really, its worth noting the author's assumed self-importance. It takes a lot of chutzpah to read "religious nation" and instantly infer "Christian nation".

It is especially interesting that the court case dates to 1892. Over 100 years ago. It's bearing upon the modern United States exists only in the religious worker visa. But I doubt the author of the rant knew that as he has blatantly done little more than copy and paste judicial COMMENTARY upon the decision with no critical analysis of his own.

He has made no assertions or claims and done no research beyond what a panel of judges 100 years ago did. Lazy, inept, completely impotent.
31 months ago: Now, as an addendum, it is important to highlight that the majority of those claims cited by the judicial commentary no longer exist. Federal and state courts have overturned much of the religious dialouge previously found in state constitutions.
31 months ago: Meca, Yammer, Anon--I'm glad to read your thoughts. Frankly, I was about to dump this entire site, for lack of logical, intelligent posters who actually READ what others have written!

We've all made the same point--it doesn't matter what, if any, religion explorers might've brought along on the trip to find riches--there are no documents which proclaim the U.S. was founded as a Christian nation--BECAUSE IT WASN'T!

I've just been reminded of poor Humpty Dumpty. "Neither all the king's horses nor all the king's men" could bring Humpty back together again. Neither all the faulty logic nor all the insistence, labels, insults and attempts at sarcasm can make it true that we live in a nation "founded as a Christian one."

Mecca  Anon
Mecca Anon
Clearwater, FL
31 months ago:
Hey zoolady; don't give up!

I welcome chances to voice my opinion, I actually want to thank RantRave for allowing people to do so. I think it's stimulating and I always learn something gin the process. Although I get frustrated with "fundie" thinking I also get amused by their logical contortions. Kind of like watching a circus!
31 months ago: "The greatest tragedy in mankind's entire history may be the hijacking of morality by religion." Arthur C. Clarke

A lot can be said about the good points of religion; even more can be said about the bad, the list is endless because of the endless frailty of mankind. We are not emotionally strong enough to control our actions when confronted with choices that play to our base desires. Greed being one of the most basic human emotions, to acquire more and more, be it food, riches or credit with whatever God you bow down to. Our ancestors did nothing that would lessen their own opinion that they were gaining credit with their God. To them, new lands equaled new opportunity to increase their earthly riches and their credit standing with their God, two for one. No man living or dead will work at something if it gives him no credit (insert woman/her as needed) for what he perceives to be a worthy goal, much to greedy for that and to gain on both fronts or even three (riches, high esteem in their church, politically) is an opportunity only a fool would pass up, especially in the early days of exploration and discovery when the Church had an iron hold on the masses and the governments of the world.
31 months ago: Remember that, the Church, which means any and all brands that had a say in many, many governments all across Europe and the Middle East, Russia, and any other “civilized” land. In some countries, the Church was the government because nothing could be done without its say so. Once monarchies stopped being the main method of rule, this power shifted out of the Churches control because without the king/queen’s authority to force compliance and adherence to the Churches edicts, there was no reason for the common man to bother with the guilt trip imposed by men with an agenda counter to his own and oh what an agenda! Total domination of the world was high on the Churches list, most specifically, the Roman Catholic Church, they were very much in power for a while, even now they have their fingers deep in the cultures of many countries in ways that allow them to manipulate the government without being obvious.

Was the US founded as a Christian nation? No. It was founded by men who had multiple religious beliefs. Some of them were Christian, some were not, all had high moral characters and were highly intelligent, otherwise they would have included some brand of religion as the state religion and would have written all their documents in a manner supporting that one religion. They did not do this, in fact they specifically expressed that NO religion be part of the government as a controlling body or in any other guise. Sure you can argue that because they were Christian (some of them) that that gives your argument credence, but it won’t fly, it’s just not feasible. You can cite all the legal mumble jumble you care to dig up, it won’t hold water, most of it won’t even hold up in court. Not now, not with free thinking men doing the deciding.
31 months ago: You have to admit that a hundred years ago, life was different, at least in the cities, EVERYONE was indoctrinated into some religion or another and for the most part in this country, it was a Christian one. Had we been settled by believers in Islam we would all be bowing to Mecca, and our constitution would not give anyone freedom of choice, it would specify what religion the government would enforce. Had they all been Buddhist, there might be freedom and it might not be specified in writing that the state had to support that one religion, but all our laws and our daily lives would be different, more peaceful I would say.

As stated before, calling names and insulting posters will not make what anyone says true, it only lessens your believability.
31 months ago: Six...I'll agree in part with your ideas above but I'll add that "everyone" was NOT indoctrinated into some religion or another...there were always logical, well-intentioned folks who didn't buy the "faith" but who quietly kept their heads down, because the GODLY weren't very tolerant of the non-believers.

Just as CERTAIN PEOPLE here adhere to the SHOUT DOWN method of quieting dissent...so, too, did the Christians of the 18th, 19th and even 20th centuries in US life.
31 months ago: ZL, In the cities and local urban environment, unless you were a street waif, you attended church every Sunday, that indoctrination was pretty much total for the first few years of life. After leaving the home, either by choice or by force, then is when the indoctrination ceased and free thought began. I'm not saying it was 100% but by far the majority of every town, village, city and spot on the road with a house and a church nearby, indoctrinated the local populace with their brand of religion. It didn't stick with many but it was their first introduction to some sort of divine power that they were told they had to believe in. If you lived away from settled areas, you probably didn't get that lesson in a higher power of the Christian persuasion but you would learn of the Native American’s Great Spirit and Mother Earth and all the other natural powers. Of course there were also the immigrants who came from places that didn’t have a Christian religion, they would not be indoctrinated either, until after they got here.
31 months ago: Alot to digest:
MECA:
Right on; however, I would add these were Christians trying to make a buck.
YABBER:
You are dead set in your ways, and I really don't care.
ANONYMOUS:
Your criique of me is interesting, but immaterial. The US Supreme Court opinion is dicta, but it is the US Supreme Court. As far as blatantly copying the US Supreme Court's decision, that goes without saying, does it not? That's what you do with court decisions. Do you need someone to hold your hand while you read it?
Anonymous, you also missing the point. (You are blind too.) I agree that I am inept at making points. The point was ONE HUNDRED YEARS AGO everyone understood THIS WAS A CHRISTIAN NATION. Period. It is the 100 years since the liberal, intellectually corrupt judges and politicians have been rewriting history. Your addedum is exactly correct. You're showing your colors.
ZOOLADY:
I bet you believe in man made Global Warming...er..uh... Global Cooling...uh...er Climate Change too. Please don't go away because you are entertaining.
SIXHOLDENS:
Who's calling whom names? Are you rewriting my comments like you are rewriting history?

Where's the calvary?
YammeringBuoy
YammeringBuoy
31 months ago: You can't digest silly it's why you argue the way you do. Dead set in my ways?!...you mean being aware of reality? RIF=reading is fun, understanding is funner, this should be your new creed, try it may bring a depth to an otherwise flaccid existence.

"ZOOLADY:
I bet you believe in man made Global Warming...er..uh... Global Cooling...uh...er Climate Change too. Please don't go away because you are entertaining."
HEY there's 2 tired lines you've never used before...oh wait no you have.

Vitriol repeat, vitriol repeat AAaaaaand rinse. or flush as in your case.
Cling man, cling! to your tiny 'ittle ways, these are the killing habits of a species on the brink of extinction.
31 months ago: As a zoo educator, I see lots of children. Sometimes you'll find a boy who just can't seem to survive without attention--even NEGATIVE attention makes him thrive.

These are the children who scream "naughty" words on the playground, are violent and blame others for their bad behavior. They are sad children and, unfortunately, not all of them grow out of it.

Of course, enabling that behavior by paying attention to it is harmful to the child and useless for the adult. Unless someone is injured, it's sometimes better to walk away and leave the child to contemplate his loneliness.

31 months ago: RSG, liberal, socialist, Marxist, blue tinted glasses, are all labels you have responded to poster's with, names you call us who would disagree with you. Some might even be correct but you would be hard pressed to pin me down with any one for long, unless it had to do with personal liberty.

I am not rewriting history, I am expressing my opinion about what has already been written and I have read. If I wanted to re-write it, I would become religious activist and work toward banning books that didn't agree with my point of view or I'd start a Rave that expressed my limited view of what transpired 200 plus years ago and slant it so that others who also ignore historical fact would agree with me.

The body of documents and other historical information on the topic of the founding of this country is huge and I admit I have read only a small percentage of them. Of those the majority expressed a definite dislike of the mixing of religion and politics. To found a country based on a specific religion would have caused much more dissent among the delegates, more than they could have overcome in the time they had to reach a consensus.
31 months ago: YABBER:
I'm clinging to my guns and religion.
ZOO:
Might I suggest a harsh whipping with a whipping stick or a switch. I guarantee the boy's contemplation will be a bit more urgent that way. (But hey, we have our next Rantrave, don't we?)
SIXHOLDENS:
You and I can respectfully agree to respectfully disagree. I am learning from you.
31 months ago: RSG, agreed, I hope that what you learn is useful and can be beneficial to you and yours, it is a two way street afterall.

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