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Economy

Rant

The Mask Comes Off

Posted 14 months ago|41 comments|624 views
Unions Busted Despite Protests
VIDEOS
Written by
Altruist
Eugene, OR
The Republicans have won this battle but they may yet loose the war.

In Wisconsin they broke the open meetings laws and without notice voted to strip Unions of Collective Bargaining while the 14 Democrats were away. http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/1...

While Walker said in the past that stripping the unions was necessary to balance the budget, now that excuse has been proven false. The unions had already said they were willing make the budgetary concessions Walker demanded. Now by stripping the union busting bill from the budget (which needed a quorum) they admitted that it didn't have anything to do with the budget. It is a pure power grab and an attack on unions to pay off corporate sponsors.

By ruthlessly trashing any rules of decorum, by breaking the law, and by refusing to bend or negotiate, the Republicans may loose the war. Public opinion was already against Walker and in favor of the unions before the Republicans pulled this "Nuclear Option".

The public opposed stripping the unions of collective bargaining by a two to one margin, but the rich approved of the move. Guess who your representatives listen to? http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/...

The Republicans are not concerned about the budget. If they were they wouldn't have given $150 million in tax breaks to the corporations. This is an attempt to silence the voices of the public so they can serve their main constituents, the rich and the corporations.

The people in Northern Africa are rising up against their tyrants. Will Americans also rise up against their corporate tyrants?

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COMMENTS
BadCyborg
BadCyborg
San Antonio, TX
14 months ago:
"The people in Northern Africa are rising up against their tyrants. Will Americans also rise up against their corporate tyrants?"

They will, indeed, rise up, Al, but against the STATIST tyrant(s).
14 months ago: OK, BadCyborg, it's not 1984 at the height of the cold war, it's 2011 and the world is overrun by corporations...things have changed a lot since then, ol buddy. It's not a big soviet-style government people fear about today, rather it is the corporate control over your government that has everybody's panties all twisted up in knots.

If government is getting big it is because of those who control the government: please understand you and I only elect people, we don't control them -- we don't control those who we elect, only those who have great power control the government. Those in power are those who have the most money, left--center--right it does not matter.

You and I can be more left or right but that does not change our common circumstance of being powerless in the face of the government we elect: have you ever felt the sting of a small time local city council politician act like they are too important to talk to you or ever schedule time to meet with you? Then try meeting with your county supervisor, or state assembly member and state senator? Or maybe even try meeting and lobbying your federal representatives and senators: if they dare come out into public to meet with the small people in a token event made to seem relevant, they will certainly not listen unless there's tens of thousands are shouting at them.

Remember, we all want freedom and a government we control, but it ain't gonna be through killing each other and the government employees, it will be through a loss of power by those who retain it for themselves, and that happens to be the brokers of power, the elite, the jet setters, the globe trotters, the folks who control the financial and product/ services sector we all need to survive
.
sunny2
sunny2
14 months ago: I'm in your corner with this one. I've been around Union people all my life and there is good in bad in everything. More than anything we need the Unions. You can't take away 50 years of people's rights. One thing will lead to another. That is exactly what the Republicans/Corporate are doing. One step at a time stripping the people of rights. How can they live with themselves? This is unamerican. I never thought of the Unions as being unamerican. When it boils down to it, they are on the side of the people all the way and will be there to protect their employment rights. Whatever happened to that little boy or girl who had a dream of becoming President. They use to say in America anyone had a chance to be President coming from the poorest of families. I guess that job is exclusive to certain groups of people. All our way of living is going to vanish. I can see where we need the Unions. Just for things like that happening in all sectors.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
14 months ago: Sunny,

In Wisconsin they didn't take away the rights of all unions. Only the ones that "represent" the people that work for the government. They took away the collective bargaining rights of the people that are paid with taxpayer dollars.

The public employee union, which made it nearly impossible to fire a worthless teacher, and put a huge burden on the state with $80,000 average teacher pay, also represents policemen, firemen, grass cutters, road crews, jailers, office clerks, and so on. The pro-union crowd has latched onto the teacher slant simply for the emotional impact.

"What about the children?!?!?" they all cry. When in truth this isn't all about the children for them, this is all about the money and power. This isn't about big business trying to take away your rights, this is about a state trying to survive, by evenning out the landscape.
sunny2
sunny2
14 months ago: Box, I was referring to the State employees.. Didn't note it... apologize.
For exactly what you are saying, I believe they should have gone another route. I don't like worthless teachers, either, they shouldn't be teaching because they can ruin lives. This way of teaching is nothing new and nothing has been done about it. I don't know any teachers getting 80,000 a year, you must be throwing in benefits. We still need qualified people to teach. What bothered me was the way the Republicans orchestrated getting the bill passed. If kids are affected in any way by this, then the Republicans went too far by using their methods of getting that Bill passed. There has to be two side to everything. I still worry because if they can do this what is going to follow. Why was it so necessary to do this behind closed doors? There are half truths to everything.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
14 months ago: Unions have long outlived their usefulness and are no longer legitimate organizations that help people. They are power abusing money grubbing organizations that seek to destroy the free market. Unions use their "collective bargaining" (also known as blackmail) to force their employers to drastically over pay them. Further the members of unions primary goal is to decimate any semblance of competition by passing requirements that all people bidding on jobs that unions bid on must raise their pay rates to match that of the unions.

The work of an electrician is important work, and it is hard work...but it is a complete manipulation of markets when those electricians force their employers to pay them $40/hr.

Wisconsin lawmakers have taken a giant leap forward in protecting the American system and also free markets in general.
14 months ago: This is simply untrue. there is an even greater need for unions and collective bargaining as the American people find themselves pushed into an economic corner they have little hope of getting out of otherwise. Business big and small would like you to believe that there are no longer any need for Union representation because it requires they pay at least a moderate wage to the employees that fill their pockets.

Without union representation our countrymen would have no choice but to try to live on the meager wages business feel we deserve. While they live high on the hog and stockholder "earn" millions.

You may feel 40$ an hour is too much to pay an electrician but when his handywork and education allow the building to operate correctly and earn the company millions of dollars how is 40$ per hour too much?
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
14 months ago: It simply is true.

Wages would not be dramatically impacted without unions. They would equalize as the market corrects for the dramatic overpayment of lazy union workers.

Union representation does nothing for people in these times as may people simply refuse to hire overpaid union workers that take longer to do jobs than people who actually earn what they are worth.

Collective bargaining, no matter how you try to spin it, is blackmail. Unions force their employers to pay them unfair wages. You cannot compare apples to oranges, electricians do not equal stock brokers.

I don't care how much the company makes, its relative to the work, tradesmen do not deserve 40/hr...the true equilibrium wage would likely be near $25/hr.

Lets look at an example of how Unions use blackmail to get what they want, even when they don't deserve it.

Summer/Fall 2010: Massive road construction project on I290, I294, I90, I94 and I55 in and around Chicago. Union contractors hired to do the work start their jobs early in the summer after requesting but being denied a raise. The work moves forward until every major highway going into and out of Chicago is 1 lane in each direction and average commute times are about 330 minutes...the union then goes on strike and refuses to work until they get a raise (that they do not deserve) from an average of $38/hr to $43/hr. In this example the union workers blackmailed their employers into giving them raise because they felt, that in the worst economic down turn since the Great Depression that simply having a job that pays about 300% more than it should was not good enough...and to prove that point they decided to F*** over every other person in the Chicago metro area so that they could get paid more and do less.

Unions are one of the last publicly/politically supported Anti American organizations. They manipulate the markets to get what they want. They are completely unnecessary behemoths and Wisconsin breaking them is a huge step in the right direction.
14 months ago: This is your problem
"You cannot compare apples to oranges, electricians do not equal stock brokers."
I'm done here.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
14 months ago: The pay does not match the job.

Stock brokers from a market stand point should make much more than an electrician. The cost of the college education vs. the cost of paid on the job training...oh wait...electricians get paid to learn their trade...stock brokers pay to learn theirs...

Simple logic here...the more a particular job costs the higher the pay should be.
14 months ago: Did ya really think that you had to go to school to be a stock broker? You don't.

Did you really think you did not have to go to school to be an electrician? You do.

This isnt the 50's there are only a handful of apprenticeship programs left in operation and most of those belong to the very unions you are badmouthing.

electricians and doctors are apples and oranges.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
14 months ago: Ok, perhaps stock brokers are a bad example (however most successful stock brokers have at the very least BS/BA in Finance). But lets say Accountants or Marketing Executives for the sake of argument.

Electrician programs (if you go full time) are typically 18 months. BA/BS is 4 years and typically more expensive since they are at traditional colleges and universities.

The average cost per credit hour at a technical/vocational school is about $104.

The average cost per credit hour at a state university is $425.

The average cost per credit hour at a private college is $657

The average debt for an M.D. at time of graduation is $180,000. This is also close to the same as J.D. and Ph.D.

Its pretty clear why people with higher degrees make (and should make) more money.
sunny2
sunny2
14 months ago: We are unemployed and college educated. These college loans have to be paid off that is why better jobs are necessary. You go to school and put in the time and effort to make a better life, yet we are blasted because we complain the jobs are no longer out there for us, and we are asked why can't we accept low paying work. I worked for a company where these job training courses which were taken had to be with an accredited college for a degree. Cost a lot of money.
Once these people went through the programs, they left and got a job that paid somewhere else.
I worked for a stock brokerage company all I saw were a bunch of people gambling with other people's money and they had hypertension all the time. They were losers. It doesn't work the way you think. In lots of Trade jobs you still have to have a certificate in it to be hired. That takes time and money. At this time the pay does not match the job because you are forced to take low level jobs to live and they make out good with experienced and intelligent people that turn their companies around. They don't pay you.
sunny2
sunny2
14 months ago: Look at the employment ads. Accountants, Marketing Executives...companies are asking for Master's Degree. Very few even want Bachelors.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
14 months ago: Believe me, the apprenticeship programs are alive and well in non-contract, non-union, or right to work states. It is the unions that have pushed the apprenticeships to the wayside in the northeast and the wrong coast. It was the unions who pushed for the certificates. It was the unions who said a pipe welder can't fit his own joints. He has to stand there and wait while another "specialist" comes and turns his pipe over to weld the other side.
Hardly anyone I know that has gone to a vocational school to learn a trade has come out with any usable knowledge. They still require a year or two of actual hands on training to be worth their pay.
And although we do have unions in these states, the membership is constantly fluctuating, because the unions are holding back the ones who actually want to work.
It was unions that demanded that 15,000 auto workers be paid to sit around all day for doing absolutely nothing. That works out to $900 million per year of waste.
sunny2
sunny2
14 months ago: You are absolutely right. Everything is going crazy.
14 months ago: For your continuing argument to hold weight you would need to supply the average salary+benefits of lets say "for arguments sake" a marketing executive. IE I believe marketing executives make a lot more then 40$ an hour with benefits.

Fact remains in areas where a union electrician makes 40 bux an hour. (They make much less then that here.) it is not out of the ordinary. Unions protect the workers not from poverty but from exploitation in areas where there is a potential for companies to exploit their workers with unfair hiring practices, bad labor policies and so forth.

To say we don't need Unions is to say you believe somehow the world is a less greed filled place then it was say in the 50's and 60's and that is an idyllic if rather naive view.

You wanna be mad at someone. Figure out who it was that gave all the power to for profit industries. Figure out who let the wolf in the hen house. Big business has drained the economy dry and then come back with their hand out. this isn't about the electrician making 40$ bucks an hour and then spending every dime of it to get his 3.4 kids through college
BadCyborg
BadCyborg
San Antonio, TX
14 months ago: Promises, promises. Put up or STFU, Slim Boy.
14 months ago: Ooops, the badcyborg is back...

The badcyborg is the thing that says stfu and other meaningful words -- good, it lost this debate and has not my respect until it apologizes.

If Slim doesn't mind, I agree with him whole heartedly. We'll have to wait for the dinosaurs to pass on before we can have a meaningful discussion about how the majority of people share a common plight about being subject to the corporations who not only make everything in our lives but also control the government we elect.

The badcyborg is to entrenched in the past to realize the line is not draw right vs. left, but rather up vs. down, rich vs. poor, connected vs. not-connected. It still thinks communism and the red scare abound!

If you want to feel better about yourself after taking a shower and washing the spit off your back from the rogue cyborg, then go over to the creationism debate for a good laugh.
sunny2
sunny2
Content Removed by sunny2
sunny2
sunny2
14 months ago: After pulling a fast one on the Democrats which should be turned over, you feel those Republicans are so honest and are trying to do the right thing. Pleaseeeeeeee Give me a break.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
14 months ago: The 14 democrats were away? You mean they ran away because they didn't want to do the job that they were elected for and getting paid to do...

Are you trying to say that they didn't know the vote was happening? They had plenty of time to act like grown ups and do their jobs...they chose not too...says a lot about the 14
14 months ago: The 14 did their jobs. they were elected to represent their constituency which fortunately wasn't brainwashed by the Republican "put your household budget here" mentality. They fought the inevitable in the only possible way to allow the people to be heard which they were, before the Governor pulled the fast one.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
14 months ago: If it was illegal, then let it be worked out in court. If it wasn't, then the dodgers should have known about it. It's no different than the midnight and holiday sessions the federal Democrats pulled to get their way. Except in this case, they brought it on themselves, by hiding out and not doing their jobs correctly.

It's always "The people have spoken!" when a majority party rams legislation down the throats of those they supposedly represent. Isn't that what we heard on the stimulus bill and the healthcare bill? What is different about this case?
sunny2
sunny2
14 months ago: One of the Senators today said they didn't want to be forced into voting.
14 months ago: "while the 14 Democrats were away"

I'll let Perfects question stand after asking if they had an invite to the party and just decided not to attend.

"Now by stripping the union busting bill from the budget (which needed a quorum) they admitted that it didn't have anything to do with the budget."

You read that as an admission? Do you have a link to any admission or are you just fabricating? Admit it.

"By ruthlessly trashing any rules of decorum, by breaking the law,"

What rules and what law?

"Republicans pulled this "Nuclear Option"."

I like it! Yep. More to come. Get your SPF100000 ready.

Wait until the "Republicans" shut down non-essential federal programs.

Maybe SPF100000000000?
sunny2
sunny2
14 months ago: The Repugs really know how to push the limits.
Makes me wonder what's next.
Altruist
Altruist
Eugene, OR
14 months ago: If you watch the video of the Senate vote it is a Republican that stands up and points out that what they are doing is illegal. They just ignored him and voted even as he was talking.

This attack on the unions is orchestrated by big business and is mainly a distraction. People are angry about the lack of jobs and the poor economy, and the right wing propaganda machine is scapegoating the unions.

Instead of people being angry at our dedicated teachers, firemen, police and the workers that keep your cities running, they should be angry at the bankers and and hedge fund managers who can make as much as that union teacher in an hour with a single telephone call.

These are the guys that destroyed the economy and stole the money from your private pension plans. These are the CEO's that fired the workers of the plant you used to work at, and moved the plant to china where workers slave for a few dollars a day. These are the guys that voted against the jobs bills and refused to cut the tax breaks for outsourcing. The right wing has been brainwashed so they are embracing those who drove the bus off the cliff and are attacking those who are trying to improve the lot of the workers and trying to get the jobs back again.

The free market concept of pay commensurate to work, does not apply to the billionaires. These billionaires don't even have to work to make their millions, they hire bright young kids out of grad school who figure out ways to barely skirt the law and make ever more complicated derivatives that regulators can't comprehend.

If you paid people on the benefit to society, the teachers, police, fire fighters and the rest, that are being demonized, should make twice what they are making, and the bankers who destroyed the country and are now sitting on trillions while they refuse to give out loans to small businesses should be put in jail.

The hedge fund managers who have leveraged food prices so millions are now in danger of starving to death, should be put in prison. The ones that are gambling on oil futures who are responsible for gas prices going to $4 or $5 should be put in jail. They don't deserve their billions and they certainly are not a thousand times as valuable to the community as the teachers etc. so why should they be paid a thousand times what the teachers get, for damaging the country?

These guys don't even pay their fair share, these trades are only taxed at 15% so the billionaires effective tax rate is only 16.7%.
14 months ago: Please excuse me while I go flush that 60 dollar turd that I could have buried in the back fourty for free.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
14 months ago: "...This attack on the unions is orchestrated by big business..."

This is not an attack on all unions. It is a reigning-in of one particular union in one cash strapped state. I hardly think big bad business has anything to do with it.

"People are angry about the lack of jobs and the poor economy, and the right wing propaganda machine is scapegoating the unions."

No-one is angry at the public employees. The economy is what it is. Steps are being taken. It takes strong leadership to do this in the face of popular opinion. The State is legally bound to operate within its means financially.

"These are the guys that destroyed the economy and stole...blah blah blah..."

No they aren't. These are merely State legislators that have no power outside of the state of Wisconsin.

The free market concept is: pay = what the market will bear. Not anything to do with quality or quantity of work. I've had days where I made $1000/hr., and I've had days that I lost money for the "privilege" of working for someone. But certain things I do makes me more money than others, due to market saturation.

"if you paid people on the benefit to society...."

I would have to agree with you, but again, free market economics doesn't work like that. Being a policeman, fireman, or any of the other multitudinous public sector employees generally doesn't require any special or unique talent, it simply requires being able to pass a minimum requirement test.

"These guys don't even pay their fair share..."

That depends on what you consider a fair share. You take a guy with two kids making $40,000, and he'll pay in about $1000 in income tax, plus another $2000 in payroll taxes. Maybe $3000 total. Then you take a guy making $100,000,000/year. At 16.7%, he pays $1,670,000. Are you saying he is using 600x more government services than the 40k/year guy?
Why is his fair share 600x more than the 40k guy?
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
14 months ago: Leveraged food and fuel prices..

The government is partly responsible for both, not just the hedge fund managers and commodities brokers.

QE2 has had more to do with the rising cost of food than anything else. This was done deliberately to devalue the US dollar, and is one of the leading contributors to the unrest now seen in the middle east.

Also, did you notice how when Obama announced last year that drilling was going to be relaxed, and new wells would be allowed, fuel prices dropped almost immediately? Then when he changed his mind and said no new drilling, fuel prices started climbing again? And now with the civil unrest "over there", caused by food shortages and high prices, fuel is shooting through the roof?

Just wait until our deficit spending gets the dollar removed as the world's reserve currency. The day the dollar is no longer the preferred currency for OPEC will be the day gas will go up to $12.00/gallon.
14 months ago: Uhhh...Box, You said:
"The free market concept is: pay = what the market will bear. Not anything to do with quality or quantity of work. I've had days where I made $1000/hr., and I've had days that I lost money for the "privilege" of working for someone."

This variability is seemingly arbitrary by your own description, and you celebrate it as a function of the so-called "free-market," but then you criticize the compensation of others who work within the same free market, but simply negotiate better and more long-term than you, as scammers getting more pay than they are due.

Everyone in America is part of the free-market: farmers, dancers, CEO's, fishermen, football players, independent contractors, public employees, and so on. Public employees make no more money than private sector employees when adjusted for level of education attained. The expenses associated with public employee compensation packages are directly tied to the free-market insofar as people make choices on their careers and choose the sector in which they want to work -- no one is forced to work in America, they choose to do so, and where they end up is the free market at work.

People want to see the free market at work, check this out: workers gather together as one united force with agreed upon goals and objectives -- is that not a legal thing to do in America? Then they implement these goals and objectives as free citizens of the USA. These people have the right to act by themselves or as a group. They are free in a free market in a free country with a great constitution. They decide to collectively bargain with their employers because they know one worker has no power to stand up to a mighty force as a large employer, public or private, the free-market is blind to the difference.

People may gather to put power behind a single idea they commonly hold. If you say, well, there's exceptions to the freedom of people to meet and act as a single entity, then you are acknowledging it is OK for certain entities to incorporate, while others may not: so it's OK for governments to incorporate, and for private entities like Walmart to incorporate, but not so for government employees? Oh, dear, the planes will fall out of the sky! Well, perhaps you should have thought about that before you screwed over the workers in the air traffic towers...Wait, how much are jet pilots paid? Who cares, fire them all, it's the free-market at work!
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
14 months ago:
The 2009 law that requires Wisconsin teachers to teach labor union and collective bargaining history to the state's kids is seen by union bosses in the state as a means to promote their cause, frame labor's message in a favorable light and increase membership.

When The Daily Caller reported that the state passed such a law in December 2009, it wasn't clear that union organizers planned to utilize it to further their agenda. Newly uncovered information from an April 2010 conference, the Wisconsin Labor History Society, a pro-union group that pushed the new law through the all-Democrat state government in 2009, shows the state's labor organizers and union bosses do indeed plan to use the controversial new law as a propaganda tool.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/dailycaller/2011...

"As educators, many of us are aware that the first exposure many teachers had to unions is when they graduated, took their first job and were told they were a member of the teachers union."
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
14 months ago: Not really a good representation of free market practices there.
14 months ago: Oh, yeah. I like your very fisrt line...

"The Republicans have won this battle but they may yet loose the war"

Sorry. Your count is wrong.

The Republicans won the last battle before this battle. It is likely they will win the next battle. Want to bet?
sunny2
sunny2
14 months ago: They will lose the war if they are not elected in again, Cypress.
Unless Corporate greed changes the rules and decides to take away the right of the people to vote that is the only way they will win the war. They seem to think they can change the rules. People will not let this happen.
14 months ago: Cry dang babies.

Waaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!11111
sunny2
sunny2
14 months ago: Whose a cry baby? This particular group is emulating the very thing they hold against the Unions. They are appearing in front of the World as if they are stepping in and taking over like bullies showing no respect for the American structure of Government. I hope this goes into a legal battle over a long period of time. I think you will see a lot of strong people step up. I have to agree with Al on this one.
I think these loser can expect a lot of back lash from the other side and see that we aren't weak. I believe this is made up of Corporate greed. Reminds me of bullies in a school yard.
sunny2
sunny2
14 months ago: What are you a banker?
sunny2
sunny2
14 months ago: I think I'll get out of this one today. I leave up to all of you to battle it out.
Altruist
Altruist
Eugene, OR
14 months ago: The Republicans are hoping that Americans have short memories and will forget this outrage come election time, but while Tea Partiers got angry with non existent threats to nebulous freedoms, the Republicans are taking away our REAL rights.

The People will not forget and will become stronger until we can throw the corporate shills and the toadies of the Koch Brothers out of office.

The people in Wisconsin are angrier than ever before and protests continue despite a media blackout. http://crooksandliars.com/karoli/huge-pr...
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
14 months ago: Isn't that why they call it the news, and not the olds?

Are we throwing out the Democrat shills of Soros and Wall St. also? Bye, Obama, the unions say you gotta go.

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