Science & Technology

Rant

The Extent Of The Danger

Posted 14 months ago|17 comments|783 views
How Much Danger?
Written by
Altruist
Eugene, OR
Today a cloud of nuclear material from the Japan Disaster will pass over where I live in Southern California.

The government of course claims that there is absolutely no danger.

The main question on everyone's mind is, can we trust the government?

Why wouldn't we? Those on the right have spent the last few years trying to convince us that we can't trust anything coming from Obama or the Democrats. The right wing has specialized in fear mongering so conservatives should be terrorized right now.

On the other hand Conservatives are the strongest cheerleaders for Nuclear Power and sometimes when hearing them talk about nuclear fuel, you get the sense that you could safely brush your teeth with the stuff.

The owners and sponsors of Fox News are afraid that people will push for clean renewable alternative energy sources, and so their minions including Bill OReilly and Glen Beck were sent out to attack the media for discussing possible dangers. http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/...

The government officials in Japan have asked people within 12 miles of the plant to evacuate and people within 19 miles to stay indoors. The Americans told all of their people to evacuate to outside 50 miles and are beginning an airlift of Americans out of the country.

Yukiya Amano, head of the International Atomic Energy Agency, described the situation in Japan as "very serious."

The chief of the U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission, Gregory Jaczko, said Wednesday that the high radiation levels could prevent workers from halting the rise in temperatures.

Tokyo Electric spokesman Hajime Motojuku denied the report and said the "condition is stable" at the Unit 4 reactor. But then TEPCO has a history of deception. http://dirtdiggersdigest.org/

Meanwhile, the governor of Fukushima prefecture, Yuhei Sato, said the anxiety and anger felt by people living around the plant has reached a "boiling point." The people feel the government is not being honest with them.

They are probably right. Now we have learned that the fuel in the #3 reactor is MOX fuel. This fuel is a combination of finally ground Plutonium and reprocessed uranium oxide. It has a lower melting point and is also considerably more dangerous than regular fuel rods, which may be why they are now concentrating on getting water to that reactor.

Plutonium is the most dangerous material in the world, and if evenly dispersed and breathed in, could give everyone in the world cancer. It has a half life of 25,000 years, and if a meltdown disperses plutonium across the country, large parts of the country will be uninhabitable essentially forever.

Why on earth would they use this dangerous material? It is considerably more expensive and is much more radioactive when it comes out of the plants than regular fuel, so it is harder to handle and dispose of. Perhaps it is being used because the plutonium can easily be processed into weapons grade material for bombs.

"The United States gave up on reprocessing fuel in the 1970s because of the dangers of weapons proliferation."

"The CIA has reported that Japan's nuclear power program was not limited to the peaceful production of electrical power. The program had its roots in a secret weapons program that caused the CIA to conclude as far back as 1964 that Japan could assemble within months a nuclear weapon."

"Because of the Japanese public's fear of nuclear weapons, the various subsequent Japanese governments have kept the program secret and have repeatedly denied its existence when news organizations made inquiries."
http://www.dcbureau.org/201103151304/Nat...

Did the Americans detect this plutonium, and is that why they are flying Americans out of the country? Fortunately Plutonium is very heavy and will settle out fairly close to the plant so I don't have to worry about that in California.
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Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
14 months ago: "The people feel the government is not being honest with them. "

There's that strong central government at work. Do you feel that Obama's government is being honest with the people in California, and that he would send experts to monitor the safety of the people there? Would Obama cave in to these special interests?

And ironically enough, TEPCO was playing a key role in helping Japan reach it's Kyoto Protocol requirements of reduced carbon emissions. I'll bet folks are sorry now about that.
Altruist
Altruist
Eugene, OR
14 months ago: It is a matter of degree. Yes Obama and many in Congress bought into the idea that Nukes are good because they don't contribute as much to climate change.

At least Obama and the Democrats in the Senate have called for an investigation of safety of all of our nuke plants. Most of those requests were opposed by the majority of Republicans. http://www.congress.org/news/2011/03/15/...

I do trust the government when they tell us the plume we are now getting from Japan would need to be a billion times as strong to be a threat, because their decisions are based more on science than on the influence of the Industry.

Under Bush, ideology was much more important than scientific fact. Even today 53% of Republicans and 70% of Tea Partiers don't believe the factual evidence of Global Warming that has led 95% of climatologists to reach consensus.
http://247wallst.com/2010/11/18/most-rep...
Altruist
Altruist
Eugene, OR
14 months ago: The problem will be whether the safety review will be done by industry flacks or objective scientists.

We saw that during the Bush administration most of the regulators were replaced by anti regulatory zealots who simply did the industries bidding. That is why there was a coal mine disaster and that is why the BP oil spill occurred.

The government paid inspectors were paid far less than they could have gotten if they worked for the industries.
14 months ago: Would Obama send his "girls" to California? Or are the Obama's in Brazil today with travel plans for Europe?

The "Cloud"? Yeah. Told you.
14 months ago: Then again...Why should we believe your scientists about radiation when you would not believe our scientists about non-global warming?
Altruist
Altruist
Eugene, OR
14 months ago: Your scientists and Our scientists? 95% of all of the climate scientists in all of the countries in the world believe an overwhelming mass of evidence that global warming is happening and is caused by human activity.

They are opposed by the so called "scientists" hired by the fossil fuel industry to prostitute their scientific principles. They are orchestrated by the same guys that the Tobacco Industry hired to spread doubt about tobacco causing cancer.

So what does this have to do with the disaster in Japan? Do you believe public servants who are dedicated to the safety of the people, or do you believe someone who's paycheck is paid by the company they are supposed to regulate?

Do you believe the industry in this case TEPCO who missed safety checks? http://www.commondreams.org/headline/201...

Or do you trust the government of Japan who has covered up several nuclear accidents because they as a country with few fossil fuels are dependent on nuclear power? http://newsflavor.com/world/asia/japan-n...

I think it is foolish to allow the drug companies do their own safety testing, http://www.naturalnews.com/030107_drug_c...

that the people who run deep water oil wells should not be allowed to fill out safety inspection forms, http://priceofoil.org/2010/10/11/offshor...

Any time the industry is allowed to influence their own regulation the public's safety is compromised. That includes industry contributions to politicians.

So in conclusion the most trustworthy inspectors, regulators, and scientists are those who have independent funding sources that have no ties to the industry involved.

sunny2
sunny2
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sunny2
sunny2
14 months ago: On Global Warming - There are a lot of good arguments expressed here. Any bit of radiation floating around and descending on the people of California is not healthy and does effect the Earth's protective ozone layers. I've been sailing through the glaciers of Alaska and have seen the effects of Global Warming, and it is alive and well and naked to the eye. (It is reality) Unless something is done presently, it will soon be far beyond solution and remedy. It saddens me to see the ice melting away and that the causes and study are considered low on the interest poll with our Government. I've seen pollution first-hand in Alaska; the trees dying, the waters polluted and stagnant and lakes and waterways clogged with silt; the salmon and spawning locations are contaminated. I live in NJ and the exhaust from the cars are a killer. In California when you mix that blend of exhaust pollution from cars and the radiation drifting across their State; it makes a nice casserole of poison. We are very big on ecology in my family, and I don't think there is a day that goes by I don't think about this. I've been out on the plains of Africa, and to me it a paradise because it is green and beautiful. This is a façade because the waters are polluted from solid waste and liquid products. There is disease abundant in that Country..
All you have to do is take a breath of air on a good day in America, and it isn't the same crisp freshness it was once. It is a sorrowful event that has taken place in Japan. Too many lives lost for what? The reactors structure from what I've heard was not up to par. As far as the scientists, I would place my bet on them any day because they are the caretakers of this earth as well as each one of us should be. The battle lives on between the fact findings of science and the conflicts between government and religious politics in play at all times. I don't see much changing in the near future. Perhaps this explosion of the nuclear plant is just another thing they will talk and talk and talk about for years and learn nothing and the people will be guinea pigs in this experiment. There are so many articles written on global warming and pollution causing cancers in Alaska. The Atomic Energy Commission lowered 5-megaton spartan missile nuclear warheads lm 1971 on Amchitka Island. How much testing has been done there since? How much nuclear testing has been done out in the deserts right here at home? Of course this will stay in the atmosphere, and those with something to gain politically by not recognizing these conditions for their own climb to the top will gain. It isn't just this tragedy happening in Japan. It has been going on a long time right here at home, and we have no recourse except to close our eyes to it and hope it all "blows away," such as, in California and Japan. The US finally stopped their nuclear testing in 1992. In May of 2009 Korea tested nuclear weapons. Testing has been done in Countries all over the World. Of course, this is the cause of global warming in the atmosphere and everything else that is suffering from fallout radiation that we aren't aware of and probably couldn't handle it if we did know. Just like now most will not recognize the threat we face. I guess it is business as usual.
Altruist
Altruist
Eugene, OR
14 months ago: Neat that you have done so much traveling Sunny. I think that if people travel and talk to people in other countries they become much more liberal than the insular conservatives here, because when traveling they are forced to face reality instead of the myths force fed them by Fox and hate radio.

The Arctic does end up with much of the radiation from Nuke testing. Fortunately above ground testing was banned but it left a nuclear legacy. The lichens accumulate radioactive strontium 90 and cesium and that is ingested and concentrated in the reindeer which is further concentrated by the native people that depend on them for food.

Back in the 50's and 60's the Atomic Energy Commission was in charge of Nuke plants and Nuclear bombs because the plants created the fuel for the bombs. Their job was to sell new plants and also to promote new uses for the bombs like the ability to create harbors by exploding a bomb. http://arcticcircle.uconn.edu/VirtualCla...

I agree that our future and the future of the world is dependent on the unbiased scientists.

It is unfortunate that many of our conservative politicians are influenced by the evangelical Christians who doubt science because it conflicts with the literal interpretation of the bible. That distrust of science is closely tied to their resistance to climate change information, which translates into 53% of Republican legislators and 70% of Tea Party politicians disbelieving in human caused Climate Change.

That said, nuclear testing and radiation has nothing to do with Global Warming.

The only thing that nuclear plants have to do with global warming, is that since they create energy while creating relatively little CO2, they have recently been plugged as a way to reduce our carbon footprint.

I personally don't think the trade off, of increased radioactive waste that we don't know what to do with, that could be a terrorist's weapon, is not worth the reduction in CO2.
sunny2
sunny2
14 months ago: Altruist...Beautifully written. I remember the fear of the forboding threat of nuclear disaster on the news when I was growing up. I did realize after I wrote that they say that radiaton does not cause it. Does it disapate in the air? But again who knows the complete damage it has done in so many other ways. My real concern was that it gets into the people's food sources. I thought about how the people during the time of the dropping of the atom bomb on Hiroshima in WW11 were affected for generations. I know you have to understand it completely, and I certainly appreciate the information. From what I have witnessed myself first hand, the damage from all the chemicals and waste is horrifying. I. All we can do is try and make a difference each day. Today we heard good news. The project we have been working on with our own endeavors has been successful, and it will benefit the children and their families. This place has been shut off from the rest of the world with no hope. They have been suffering from disease and poverty. You see what trying to make a difference can accomplish and make changes that otherwise would never have been.
Thank you for the information. I do rely on those that are very knowledgable to enlighten me which makes me grow in return. I always say that how I appreciate information. I am going to save this piece that you wrote. Thank you Altruist. Sunny
Altruist
Altruist
Eugene, OR
14 months ago: Thank You for the compliments Sunny but I am not an expert. On the other hand it is simple to educate yourself about these things.

The latest news from Japan is that there is a large crack in the # 3 reactor vessel. The crack goes down below the water level in the container and is leaking liquid and gases.

This is especially bad news because reactor # 3 is the reactor with the MOX (mixed oxide) fuel that has the finally ground plutonium mixed with the uranium.

The radioactive isotope most people here are freaking out about, is Iodine-131. This isotope has a half life of 8 days. That means that in 8 days, a sample looses 1/2 of it's radioactivity. That is important to us because on March 18th .13 microcuries of Iodine 131 were detected in the air at San Diego. This is very low and would have to be thousands of times greater to be dangerous, at which point people might be asked to stay indoors or to take Potassium Iodide tablets. (By the way this is the only isotope that KI tablets protect you from.)

Because it takes several days to travel the 6,000 miles from Japan to here, we don't have to worry much about the iodine because it looses much of it's radioactivity because of the short half life. (especially to the rest of the country).

Plutonium-239 on the other hand has a half life of 24,000 years. That means that in 24,000 years a sample will be 1/2 as radioactive, in 48,000 it will be 1/4th as radioactive, in 96,000 years it will be 1/8th as radioactive. Because plutonium is so radioactive to start with, it might take millions of years to be considered safe.

Now that stuff dribbling out of the reactor core of the # 3 plant and into the ocean. If plutonium is inhaled there is a very high probability you will get lung cancer because the lungs are particularly sensitive to radiation, and the particles remain there. Fortunately if it is ingested (as in the fish) it is not nearly as harmful because that is flushed out of your system. It is also fortunate that this is a very heavy isotope so it isn't wind born very far, unless a nuclear blast and it's mushroom cloud lifts the material into the stratosphere.

So the big problem is how do you stop the leak? Generally if you have a crack in metal you can just grind it out, and weld it up again. In this case that is difficult to do because it is highly radioactive and welders would get a lifetime's radioactivity in a few minutes. The other problem is that because the zirconium cladding on the fuel rods quickly oxidizes when exposed to heat, it breaks down the water and releases a lot of hydrogen gas, which is highly explosive. Right now they are afraid of turning on the pumps at # 3 even though they now have power, because a spark could set off a massive explosion which would further open up the crack. If a spark would set it off, welding certainly would.

Altruist
Altruist
Eugene, OR
14 months ago: Oops! forgot the link about the crack: http://enenews.com/definite-fukushima-no...
BadCyborg
BadCyborg
San Antonio, TX
14 months ago: Ah, Al? Your logon shows you as being from "Eugene, Or" but here you are explicitly saying you live in Southern Ca. Which is correct? You don't have to display where you live. Why display a falsehood? My experience (backed by scripture, I might add) is that a man who is trustworthy in small things is trustworthy in large things and conversely, a man who will lie about small things that DO NOT matter, will easily lie about matters of greater 9import. Why should we believe anything you say if you are dishonest in such small matters?

As for the "cloud of radiation", it never got here. I have been monitoring it on a website - here http://www.radiationnetwork.com/ - since shortly after the tsunami/quake. There has been virtually no change.

But as others have raised, why should we believe anything coming out of that big central government of which you and the other statists are so awfully fond? Their whole schtick is to obfuscate, delay, dissemble, stonewall and outright lie. I for one have yet to see any of that bridge building and openness and transparency we were promised. Heck from where I sit Obama could give Tricky Dick Nixon a few lessons on being secretive. He could also give LBJ lessons on running an imperial presidency.

If you live in Oregon you should be pretty safe. Even if you live in SoCal you do not appear to have so much about which to worry.

But, again, Al, where do you live? I, myself, live in San Antonio, Tx at 29 degrees.22 minutes.50.46 seconds north latitude, 98 degrees.22 minutes.09.67 seconds east longitude (at least those are the coordinates Google Earth gives for my front porch, my living room is a few feet north of there) and you are welcome to come visit.

Bad Cyborg X%er
sunny2
sunny2
14 months ago: What next? This is a bad, bad time. There is no real truth from these Governments. I'm aware of radio isotopes as my husband delivered it to hospitals years ago. And because of the 1/2 life, I don't know what was worse, the break neck speed at which he had to drive to get it to its destination or being near the radio isotope itself. I don't know how much this little planet can take. I don't think we will ever really know how badly we will be affected. It can't be good, no matter how you look at it. It's a catastrophe. People go on their merry way oblivious of it.
BadCyborg
BadCyborg
San Antonio, TX
14 months ago: Ah, Al? Your logon shows you as being from "Eugene, Or" but here you are explicitly saying you live in Southern Ca. Which is correct? You don't have to display where you live. Why display a falsehood? My experience (backed by scripture, I might add) is that a man who is trustworthy in small things is trustworthy in large things and conversely, a man who will lie about small things that DO NOT matter, will easily lie about matters of greater 9import. Why should we believe anything you say if you are dishonest in such small matters?

As for the "cloud of radiation", it never got here. I have been monitoring it on a website - here http://www.radiationnetwork.com/ - since shortly after the tsunami/quake. There has been virtually no change.

But as others have raised, why should we believe anything coming out of that big central government of which you and the other statists are so awfully fond? Their whole schtick is to obfuscate, delay, dissemble, stonewall and outright lie. I for one have yet to see any of that bridge building and openness and transparency we were promised. Heck from where I sit Obama could give Tricky Dick Nixon a few lessons on being secretive. He could also give LBJ lessons on running an imperial presidency.

If you live in Oregon you should be pretty safe. Even if you live in SoCal you do not appear to have so much about which to worry.

But, again, Al, where do you live? I, myself, live in San Antonio, Tx at 29 degrees.22 minutes.50.46 seconds north latitude, 98 degrees.22 minutes.09.67 seconds east longitude (at least those are the coordinates Google Earth gives for my front porch, my living room is a few feet north of there) and you are welcome to come visit.

Bad Cyborg X%er
Altruist
Altruist
Eugene, OR
14 months ago: BC My home is in Eugene but I moved to San Diego over a year ago to care for my disabled parents, but that has nothing to do with the credibility of what I write. I always try to substantiate my comments with links to the articles I referred to.

In this case I didn't because the point I was trying to get across, is not that there has been a radioactive cloud that we need to freak out about, but that the tiny radiation spike that was detected on March 18th would only be considered serious if it was thousands of times more than what occurred.

The article ran in the San Diego Union Tribune March 26th. http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2011/...

Also traces of radioactive isotope xenon-133 from the crippled nuclear power plant in Japan were detected Friday in Sacramento and on Wednesday and Thursday in Washington state in an amount "that poses no concern," federal officials said. http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2011/...

Does the fact that you claim to have been monitoring this but found no change, mean that you are untrustworthy also?

As for the trustworthiness of Obama's administration, perhaps they have not been quite as open as promised, but they are thousands of times more open than the Bush administration. They found the millions of emails Cheney "Lost", they opened up the white house logs to the public, and they instructed all freedom of information requests be allowed unless specifically denied by the White House, while Bush instructed that they all be denied unless specifically approved by the White House.

At least this administration bases it's information on a factual scientific basis and not on the basis of ideology like most conservatives who deny real science and prefer the manufactured lies of their corporate sponsors.
14 months ago: I have been holding back on this question to see if anyone else would ask...

But, no....

What is wrong with the picture? Ain't hard to figure out.

BTW, Al. Sudden spikes in radiation (above 1000) now in the mix?

Where does that go?

Sushi anyone?
sunny2
sunny2
14 months ago: Cypress I think the Earth is in big trouble with this threat of radiation. A big mix of chemicals can't be good for us. I realize it is suppose to dissipate in the air, but the food and water is another story. Aren't the chemicals getting into the ocean water?
sunny2
sunny2
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