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Rant

The Baucus Health Plan Vs. 9/12 Protests

Posted 29 months ago|71 comments|687 views
VIDEOS
Written by
Chris D
Seattle, WA
What’s the relationship between the 9/12 protests from last week and today’s news about the Baucus health plan?

The video on the left was recorded at the 9/12 Tea Party/health care protests last Sunday. It’s fairly interesting, because it helps us draw some conclusions about the folks who seem so angry about the current health care debate.

The predominantly white, college-educated, upper middle class of the baby boomer generation seem to be the most concerned with the new health care plan. This is because they have the most to lose; it is why they are defending the status quo so vehemently.

When a friend sent me a link to this video, I thought it might be a little funny, but instead, I ended up feeling sad. The folks are angry, but more than that, they’re extremely uninformed and confused.

I’m not naïve: I know that the video makers “cherry picked” some choice interviews to illustrate their point that the protesters are uneducated. And yes, protests, no matter what the cause, tend to call in all the crazies. Look at any anti-war protest, for example.

But watch the video. Consider some of the things these 9/12 protesters believe.

- That the drug czar – an adviser – is going to be given land and kingly rights.

- That it’s time to “boycott Hollywood, and all the commies.”

- That President’s Obama’s call for an “army of volunteers” is going to be armed with weapons, much like a secret police.

I know my head’s in the clouds, but I wish that economists and doctors on both sides of the debate could sit down and really make a change for the better of the country.

Want to know the latest on health care? Visit the link to the Washington Post article on the left. It outlines Senate Finance Committee Chairman Max Baucus’ new health plan – the one that will be heard, debated, and voted on in the Senate soon.

Here are a couple of main points about the Baucus health plan from the article:

- All Americans will be required to carry health insurance.

- Insurance companies may not discriminate against people seeking health insurance based on preexisting conditions or current health status.

- There won’t be an Obama-esq “public option,” per se, but a system of “non-profit cooperatives.” (I’m not sure what that means, yet.)

- People will be able to use the Internet to search for local insurance plans, and to select the health plan they like best.

- Medicaid will be expanded; individual patients will have a limit to their annual health-care costs.

- The Baucus health plan will be paid for with “$349 billion in new taxes and fees and $507 billion in cuts to government health programs.”


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COMMENTS
29 months ago: Chris:

You forgot to say these guys are racists.
29 months ago: Here you go girls. The Mark Up plan. Full pdf. Read it. Argue it.

http://images.dailykos.com/images/user/6685/091609_Americas_Healthy_Future_Act.pdf

I espically like the part about charging an excise tax to those that opt out of any plan. You young healthy. I'm not paying for insurance which I don't need or use types. Look out. One way or another your going to have to fork over some of your green stuff to pay for health care.

The part on page 29 which requires employers with over 200 employees to "Automatically Enroll" all employees into healthcare is also amusing.

Seems like those that don't want it or don't use it are going to get shafted.

Hummmm, who could those people be? Maybe slightly leaning leftists? This is too funny.
29 months ago: @redstateguy
Watch the video. Chris was the absolute height of discretion for leaving that out.

@Chris
I'm saddened that Baucus' plan scrapped the public option, but I'm hopeful, considering the progressive pressure for the option, that it will be re-added during reconciliation. Call it socialism (mistakenly), call it communism (even more mistakenly), call it fascism (insanely), most of the country still supports publicly funded insurance.

And here's an interesting thing: So do most doctors: http://rwjf.org/healthreform/quality/product.jsp?id=48408
29 months ago: Hey neighbor! Cut down any redwoods today? Nope, just those stupid "red head step children". You forgot to include freckles. PSSST Chris, you might try "Grecian Formula" and a tad bit of "Just for Men".

"Progressive pressure"? What a total load of crap. Progressive. Is that on the new talking points memo? Progressive what? Progressive pressure is right, they think they are progressively adding pressure. Let's just see what happens when those in the middle figure out what is happing under this progressive pressure and decide to blow the top off of the pressure cooker.

I point out this part of the definition of "progressive"

a : increasing in extent or severity b : increasing in rate as the base increases

29 months ago: TCG, must I explain everything to you? Do you actually have a vendetta against knowledge or something? Vehemently anti-Google?

The "progressive pressure" for the option comes from... Ta-da! The biggest non-party Caucus in the U.S. Congress! And guess what they're called?

Can you guess? Go on, give it a whirl. I'll even give you some hints. Two words. First word begins with the letter P. Second word begins with the letter C.
29 months ago: Oh yeah Noni. In case you haven't figure it out.
Someone does not engage in follow up. Go figure, the progressives love to post, run and hide.
29 months ago: Note to self: Avoid embarrassing posts about how someone never responds poorly timed to appear just after that same someone has responded. ;)
29 months ago: I love getting "schooled" by you.
Don't Note to me, I'm talking history. Fact.
Someone likes to post and run. Fact.

Do I need to "School" you?
"just after that same someone has responded"
Where is the poster of this page?
Where is the poster of this page in any of the debate?

Hiding. Progressively hiding.
Chris D
Chris D
Seattle, WA
29 months ago: @RSG: Hey man, I only quoted from the video what I saw. My name's not Jimmy Carter, and I don't like to play the race game.

@HNN: I'm encouraged by Baucus' plan. I'm interested in what these not-for-profit co-ops will turn into. My hope is that everyone will have access to equal, quality care, but it's easy for sick, uneducated, or otherwise disabled people to slip through the cracks.

@TCG, you're suggesting I change my hair color? I'm proud to be a redhead. I guess I don't get the joke.

Also, I understand that you don't think you need or will use health insurance(?), but a lot of us -- and our families -- aren't as lucky as you.

Finally, I'm not hiding. I can't lurk on RR all day, you know.
29 months ago: Glad you finally chimed in. Lurk when you want.
Get bold and get involved and start engaging in the debate.
That is unless your just out for the Google points.

My way of pulling you into the fray. I wouldn't expect someone under 30 to get it. Glad you will be paying for my heath care in a few years. I am starting plans right now to cut everything related to future self insurance so I can tax the younger Americans (you and Noni) as much as possible.
29 months ago: Sorry, TCG, thought you were talking about me. Boy, you're feeling pugilistic today...
Billyberoo
Billyberoo
Cedar Park, TX
29 months ago: "All Americans will be required to carry health insurance."

Not constitutional, and if I got to pay the $10 filing fee I will get myself a good young lawyer and take it to the Supreme court myself.

And don't give me the "states require car insurance argument." Because driving is not a RIGHT it is a PRIVILEDGE.

The Constitution Protects my right to my life, and if I don't want health insurance I won't get it.
Billyberoo
Billyberoo
Cedar Park, TX
29 months ago: @ Chris
and I notice that you pic out a video with fringe people in it. Each side as its loons. I remember seeing protests in your home town of Seatle (i'm sorry RIOTS) where people walk arounfd saying Capitalists are Murderers. So don't give us this "Holier than Thou" crap that you put in this post.

29 months ago: "And don't give me the 'states require car insurance argument.' Because driving is not a RIGHT it is a PRIVILEDGE."

And with that gloriously misspelled statement, you have just committed the most amazing act of conservative argumentation self-defeat I have ever born witness to.

All along, conservatives here have been arguing that health insurance isn't a right, it's a privilege (please note the lack of the letter D). You have just declared that health insurance is not a privilege. Is it, then, a right? Have you just become a proponent of single-payer universal health insurance?

Or is it something else? If it's not a right, and not a privilege, what would you call it?
Billyberoo
Billyberoo
Cedar Park, TX
29 months ago: It is a product. Health Care is a PRODUCT (or SERVICE, which ever you want to consider it) to be purchased and sold with in a market system. Much like a car, a boat, legal advice, consulting, marketing advice, and everything else we have the right to buy.

Sorry about the missspellling.
Billyberoo
Billyberoo
Cedar Park, TX
29 months ago: When we as a nation start to understand what health care actually is, then we will stop gambling for it. I say gambling because that is what we do when we coose to buy or not buy Health insurance. When we buy it, we are betting that we will become sick or injured. The insurance company bet's against us when they sell it to us. They are betting we will remain healthy. But they do have a trick up their sleeve, they hire actuaries who are the "handicappers" of the health care game. They figure out the "money line" of how much the company should take to make sure they are the winner.

Think of it as a game of Texas Hold em'.
29 months ago: @Billyberoo

Which ones are the "loons?" Is it...

* The ones who think Barack Obama is a Muslim?
* The ones who think he's foreign born?
* The ones who "joke" about burying "Obamacare" with Kennedy?
* The ones who compare Obama to Hitler? (Careful here, you'll be calling half of RantRave loons.)
* The ones who think communism, socialism, and fascism are the same thing? (Gotta be careful here, too.)
* The ones who denounced Hollywood?
* The ones whose signs were implicit threats, like "Unarmed THIS TIME" guy?
* The ones who think the government will turn the country into a third-world nation?
* The ones who want a Christian President? (As if we don't already have one.)
* The ones who think the "army of volunteers" will be a literal army?

I challenge you to find a single protester there who didn't believe any of those loony things. You just don't like it pointed out that they're loony.

I'll grant you at three picks that were probably unusual in the crowd, although likely not unique: the "czar" people, the Obama=anti-christ guy, and the cross-bearer.

But as for the rest... Which ones *weren't* representative of the beliefs of the Tea Party protesters? Tell me this wasn't a valid cross-section of the protest. Tell me that most of them weren't lunatics who would agree with everything on my list above.
Chris D
Chris D
Seattle, WA
29 months ago: BB, I don't think it's "holier than thou" to ignore folks that are really confused and full of hate -- for example, Birthers.

I agree that when you purchase health insurance, you are hedging your bets on your health. Yes, it's a rigged card game -- but some people can't even afford the ante.

I'm saying we need to change the rules.
Billyberoo
Billyberoo
Cedar Park, TX
29 months ago: The ones who think Barack Obama is a Muslim?
* The ones who think he's foreign born?

Just these 2. I said the same thing about Kenedy 5 minutes after I heard the news.

I don't beleive them, but they have the right to say them, sometimes exageration really helps to tell a story.

The ones who think communism, socialism, and fascism are the same thing? (Gotta be careful here, too.)
The are all similar, in that the state plans atleast most of the economy
Billyberoo
Billyberoo
Cedar Park, TX
29 months ago: @Chris
But a lot of those people that say they "can't afford it" seem to be able to afford luxuries like flat screen TV', cable/satellite, mind altering drugs as well as alcohol, and eating out instead of at home.

I'm not saying there are some people that truly can't afford it, but counted in that group are people are people I described above that don't prioritize their life correctly. I was once one of them.

I work in the restaurant business, do you know how many young people that are servers spend twice as much on getting wasted as they would to purchase health insurance?
I know people that spend more for health care for their dog than on themselves. I'm sure if you think about it you know people like that also.
Billyberoo
Billyberoo
Cedar Park, TX
29 months ago: The answer is not treating our Health Care like a game of cards, but like going to the Grocery store and finding the least expensive way to keep ourselves from going hungry and choosing from a large variety of products to make us healthiest.
Chris D
Chris D
Seattle, WA
29 months ago: @BB

I agree that some people need to re-prioritize their lives. But you must agree that the system, as a whole, is broken and needs to be fixed.

I won't rant too much about my personal family situation, but I do know that it is quite easy to get $30,000 in debt because of a lack of health insurance combined with a bit of ignorance. That story is repeated all over the USA. (Not to mention the price-gouging that is perpetrated by drug companies on a daily basis.)

Don't believe the party line that providing a health care option for those who need it -- in essence, leveling the playing field -- is morally wrong or stupid.

It's the right thing to do, friend.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
29 months ago: Chris D

"The predominantly white, college-educated, upper middle class of the baby boomer generation seem to be the most concerned with the new health care plan"

Don't you think any income or education based demographic in the U.S. would be predominantly white? Can you name one that isn't? I mean, I think the high school dropout, minimum wage crowd is predominantly white, as is the moronic imbecile crowd, the blue collar lower middle class, and on and on, and the poverty level subsistence families. I would say single parent families, two gay dads, and progressive vegetarian PETA freaks would also be predominantly white.
Billyberoo
Billyberoo
Cedar Park, TX
29 months ago: @Chris
You should see that I don't believe the party line, because I believe in getting rid of the middle man, Insurance companies. If we as individuals purchase what we needed when we needed it demand would come down, thus bringing prices down. When insurance companies are paying, people use the system to get "their money's worth" by going to the doctor, are practicing unsafe behaviors.

All this plan does by "forcing people to have health insurance" is giving the insurance company a GOVT. Mandated customer base. Now just imagine owning a business and having the Govt. force everyone to buy your product. Are you going to work efficiently? Are you going to lower your prices?

I find it hard to believe that the current administration wants everyone to do business with an industry it has been demonizing for the past 2 months. I smell a rat, and the smell is strong being that we have 540 + 100 possibilities of rats in Congress.

Providing people with health care who can't afford it is a good thing, government providing it is a disaster in the making.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
29 months ago: 540+100+1
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
29 months ago: Noni,

I missed that definition of progressive, when describing a political position. Would you please elaborate?
29 months ago: heynnnn.

I'm on board with those signs, except communism, socialism and fascism are different.
29 months ago: Noni Meltdown.
Billyberoo
Billyberoo
Cedar Park, TX
29 months ago: Sorry OOB forgot the 1
29 months ago: OOTB, sorry, better reply to Billy

540+100+THE ONE
Billyberoo
Billyberoo
Cedar Park, TX
29 months ago: "I point out this part of the definition of "progressive""

a : increasing in extent or severity b : increasing in rate as the base increases

Sounds similar to incremental, as in They will incrementally take away our liberty, or
We will practice "Incrimentalism", that is "we will get single payer, socialized health care, but we got to take it one step at a time"

The words of our President http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpAyan1fXCE
Billyberoo
Billyberoo
Cedar Park, TX
29 months ago: John Taylor of Caroline in his book "Tyranny Unmasked" writes about how tyranny is inevitable through "masking" it and incrementally or progressively taking away the peoples liberty using the mask. This way back in the 1820's.
29 months ago: Wow...

Billyberoo, you called the interviews cherry-picked to only show the loony, then said you agreed with almost everything I listed that appears in the interviews, including Obama=Hitler.

Can I get a show of hands on that one? How many people here really think Obama/Hitler is a valid comparison?
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
29 months ago: Noni
Can I get that definition of progressive, when used to describe a political ideology?
Billyberoo
Billyberoo
Cedar Park, TX
29 months ago: You won't get noni def because he won't. Be is more worried about giving people the illusion that he is educated but he is actually very ignorant of the tea party movement,and like Mr. Alinsky says insult them, bait them to agravate them so as the argument is seen as ridiculous. Well Noni I'm onto to you
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
29 months ago: http://www.ehow.com/about_5133172_definition-progressive-politics.html

Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
29 months ago:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressivism

"Progressivism is a political and social term that refers to ideologies and movements favoring or advocating changes or reform, usually in a statist or egalitarian direction for economic policies (government management) and liberal direction for social policies (personal choice)."

Notice that the progressive term is being used by some in a disingenuous way. They are still in favor of change, still in favor of more government control over economic policy, but have now revised the definition to include government control over personal choice, such as imposing penalties for certain lifestyle behaviors, and removing personal choice in certain other areas, such as health care insurance.
Billyberoo
Billyberoo
Cedar Park, TX
29 months ago: Which would be similar to Fascism.

From wiki "in the economic sphere, many fascist leaders have claimed to support a "Third Way" in economic policy, which they believed superior to both the rampant individualism of unrestrained capitalism and the severe control of state communism.[10][11] This was to be achieved by establishing significant government control over business and labour (Mussolini called his nation's system "the corporate state")."

With a little Communism:
Communism (from Latin: communis = "common") is a family of economic and political ideas and social movements related to the establishment of an egalitarian, classless and stateless society based on common ownership and control of the means of production and property in general, as well as the name given to such a society.
(the common ownership and control of the means of production of Health Care.)

and Socialism which is the means to Communism:
"Socialism refers to various theories of economic organization advocating public or direct worker ownership and administration of the means of production and allocation of resources, and a society characterized by equal access to resources for all individuals with an egalitarian method of compensation. In Marxist theory, socialism is a transitional phase between capitalism and communism characterized by unequal distribution of wealth and compensation according to work done. [1][2][3] Contrary to popular belief, socialism is not a political system; it is an economic system distinct from capitalism."

There for I guess Progresivism is a Hybrid (just like the type of car they want us to buy) of all evils: Fascism and Socialism (which will be the means) to get to Communism.
29 months ago: Nice assumptions there... Billyberoo, I didn't answer because I had real world stuff to take care of, and didn't see OOTB's question. Now then, the Wikipedia definition of progressivism is as good as any, but OOTB's additions to it are utter, abject bull-pucky. He says: "They are still in favor of change, still in favor of more government control over economic policy, but have now revised the definition to include government control over personal choice, such as imposing penalties for certain lifestyle behaviors, and removing personal choice in certain other areas, such as health care insurance."

By "they" I hope he means "Max Baucus." Progressives hate what Baucus has produced, because it does exactly as described. A tax penalty for failing to buy government-mandated private health insurance is absurd, and the Progressive Caucus in Congress is vehemently opposed to it.

So congratulations, OOTB. You hate the Baucus version of this bill? Welcome to the progressive side.
29 months ago: And I'd like to tackle one other thing here:

"You won't get noni def because he won't. Be is more worried about giving people the illusion that he is educated but he is actually very ignorant of the tea party movement,and like Mr. Alinsky says insult them, bait them to agravate them so as the argument is seen as ridiculous. Well Noni I'm onto to you"

First, a professional tip: If you're going to make fun of someone's level of education in an internet forum, you're just embarrassing yourself if you don't make a reasonable effort to spell words correctly and use proper punctuation. I posted a rant on this topic recently, and strongly suggest you read it.

As for ridicule... I won't mince words. You and much of the Tea Party mob think Obama is comparable to Hitler, a notion that deserves every ounce of ridicule it receives and then some. It isn't a rational idea. Perhaps you reached that conclusion through fantasies of euthanasia and death panels. Or maybe you decided universal health care equals socialism, and since Nazis were called the "National Socialist" party, they're the same thing. Maybe you really believe he hates white people.

It doesn't matter. You cannot logically defend your position, because it's an insane position. Yes, I'm ridiculing you and the whole birther/teabagger nut-house, but it has nothing to do with Saul Alinsky and everything to do with how the Republican party seems to have been taken over by screwballs who can't even properly articulate what they hate about Obama. Again, you said the video cherry-picked lunatics, then proceeded to *agree* with most of them.

Why should your fringe political movement - and yes, I'm sorry, but it's fringe - even be given the time of day?
Billyberoo
Billyberoo
Cedar Park, TX
29 months ago: As I said when a liberal is wrong and the argument is lost they revert to insults and marginalization. Thanks for proving my point again.

And as for my typos, I only worry about them in my postings, not my comments. I feel comments are a conversation, and Conversation is informal to me.
29 months ago: What "argument?" I bring facts, citations, statistics, and the actual content of laws. You have brought nothing to this entire thread but agreement with notions like Obama=Hitler and Socialism=Communism=Fascism. No facts, just baseless assertions. Oh, and now a proclamation that you've won. Won what, I wonder?

This country needs a strong opposition party, whichever party is in power. I wish the Republicans would be that party, but they've been hijacked by clowns. Whatever happened to well-reasoned conservative intellectualism? When Ann Coulter is your party's voice of reason, you've got a problem.
Billyberoo
Billyberoo
Cedar Park, TX
29 months ago: You twist facts, you don't bring them. I never said S=C=F.

I said Facsism and Socialism are similar in there economic approach, which they are.

I said Socialism is a means (an ecconomic means) to Communism (which is a political system, but is also viewed understadably by some as an ecconomic system), which, as written by Marx and Engel it,is.

Progressivism, is a political philosophy derived from combining elements of Fascism and Socialism, which to me is a hybrid of Communism. That is my opinion based on definitions of each.

Fact, Health care is a group of products that we have the right to purchase. Just like groceries a products we have the right to purchase.

"but they've been hijacked by clowns."
Once again insult and marginalize the opposition. That is thrice you have done that.
29 months ago: OK, I'm pretty sure current, modern countries with socialized health insurance would take umbrage at the comparison to fascist states like Nazi Germany and communist states like the Soviet Union, but they're too busy laughing at you over it and shaking their heads in disbelief.

"Fact, Health care is a group of products that we have the right to purchase. Just like groceries a products we have the right to purchase."

Who ever said it was anything but? Health *care* (getting a bone set, getting a heart valve replaced, getting a needed drug, et cetera) isn't health *insurance* (putting your money in a shared pool to use for health care costs). Why in the world would you confuse the two? Do you confuse your car for your car insurance or your house for your house insurance?

Billyberoo: "Once again insult and marginalize the opposition. That is thrice you have done that."

Once Republicans take back their party from the people who are afraid Satan Von Hitler will institute mandatory euthanasia for grandmothers before death panels of illegal Muslim immigrants, I - and the rest of the world - will stop making fun of them.

Stop being a freak show, and you'll stop being treated like one.
Billyberoo
Billyberoo
Cedar Park, TX
29 months ago: There were other fascists, Musolini for example. A more pure form fascist (hitler was a racist who practice fascism), that was studied and supported by many "progressive intellectuals" of the late 19th - early 20th century. Many of whom made it into the ranks in both Teddy and Franklin Roosevelts' administration, as well as Wilson, and taught it throughout the elite universities in the nation.

Fascism = Hitler, but Hitler Fascism.

Keep on insulting and marginalizing.

Insurance is not putting your money in a pool to share costs, it is a product we purchase. Insurance is like buying a lottery ticket or buying into a game of poker, you are betting that you will get sick. The insurance company is betting you won't. And the actuaries the insurance companies hire are setting the money line, or odds. Pooling your money to share costs is called Communism, because Communism is common ownership of property and money is property.

Step back take a breath, and try to look a things in their most simple form, like us uneducated, racist, ignorant, tea baggin' rednex.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
29 months ago: "He will dance, but it is I who have called the tune!"

Dietrich Eckart



What is your favorite Frank Marshall Davis quote?


Here is one. I couldn't say it is my favorite, by any means, but this is the man Obama spent many, many hours being tutored by.

“I’m not one to go in for Lolitas. Usually I’d rather not bed a babe under 20. But there are exceptions. I didn’t want to disappoint the trusting child. At her still-impressionistic age, a rejection might be traumatic, could even cripple her sexually for life.”

He was speaking of a 13 year old girl he and his wife introduced to the world of group sex.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
29 months ago: Oh, and the little girl's name was Anne. Co-incidentally.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
29 months ago: An excerpt from the letter to Obama from the chairman of the progressive caucus.



"We continue to support the robust public option that was reported out of the Committees on Ways and Means and Education and Labor and will not vote for a weakened bill on the House Floor or returning from a Conference with the Senate.

Any bill that does not provide, at a minimum, a public option built on the Medicare provider system and with reimbursement based on Medicare rates-not negotiated rates-is unacceptable."

And to think they had the nerve to call republicans un-compromising.
29 months ago: OOTB, I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but about 10 months ago, we had a nation-wide event called an "election." In this election, we chose various state legislators, representation in the House and Senate, and our national head of state. That last one's important; we chose a fellow who proposed a publicly financed health insurance system.

The other guy? The one who likes things as they are? He lost.

Now, in "compromise," there is a little give and take on both sides. As the newly elected legislature started hammering out the details of insurance reform, that guy who won suggested, as a compromise, a system in which that public insurance exists as an option, but doesn't do away with private insurance for folks who still want to treat it as betting instead of a shared value pool. I think that view of insurance is nuts, but I'm happy with a compromise for the people who don't.

The public option *is* the compromise between universal single-payer and private insurance companies. But for the guys who lost, apparently "compromise" means "do what we would have done if we'd won."

The Progressive Caucus *wants* single-payer. They're willing to settle for a public option. That's compromise. Now it's time for your side to face the electoral reality of last fall and compromise as well.
29 months ago: Oh, hey, just spotted the old Frank Marshall Davis thing. What does that have to do with health care? What's the logical equation here? Is it something like "Obama knew this guy as a kid, therefore public health insurance is communism?"

Didn't know you were a Jerome Corsi fan, OOTB. I'm disappointed. The guy's a nut. You are aware he's a 9/11 truther in addition to being a birther, right?

In any event, the problem with guilt-by-association, which is what you're attempting here, is that it's a logical fallacy. Here, "Barack Obama knew Frank Marshall Davis, and is therefore a pervert communist" is supposed to sound sensible. It falls apart if you reverse it: "Frank Marshall Davis knew Barack Obama, and was therefore a... er... community organizer."

Guilt-by-association attacks are also nonsensical because we all have associations that could be used in that way. I'll bet if someone went through your past carefully, they could find four or five people who could be construed as horrible people and level smears at you for it. Heck, you regularly talk to *me*, and I'm a socialist/fascist, right?

But there's one thing that tells me, above all else, that you got this talking point from a right-wing smear generator that has little association with fact: The book that quote is from is a piece of *fiction*. Which you would know if you'd bothered to research it, rather than snap up a dandy quote from some other dittohead. It's from a kind of novel called a "memoir-novel" (http://www.answers.com/topic/memoir-novel-1), which pretends to be autobiographical but is actually complete farce.

OOTB, I have to say, I've lost a lot of respect for you here. I thought you were a conservative intellectual. That you would fall for a Jerome Corsi smear throws much of your argumentation into suspicion.

Anyone who wants a laugh can check out the book that absurd quote is from. It's called (I kid you not) "Sex Rebel: Black (Memoirs of a Gash Gourmet)."
JAK Gladney
JAK Gladney
Saint Albans, WV
29 months ago: "This country needs a strong opposition party, whichever party is in power. I wish the Republicans would be that party, but they've been hijacked by clowns. Whatever happened to well-reasoned conservative intellectualism?"

I had this argument just the other day. I used to see this rabid anti-intellectualism as just rhetorical excess, populism gone mad. Post-Palin, it finally dawned on me: they really believe smarts = not to be trusted. People like George Will, Buckley, David Frum questioned her credentials, readiness--as they should have--and they were dismissed as "the intellectual wing" of the Republican Party.

"Satan Von Hitler"--I laugh every time I read this, and plan on test-marketing it in my own circles, with full attribution. Is he anything like the "Superdevil?"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29khjYTOLC8
29 months ago: scotmanster, the devil - as always - is in the details. He said it wouldn't cost anyone making less than $250,000 any money. Remember Joe the Plumber? That's who he was talking to during that debate.

By the way, please stop confusing Max Baucus' bill with what Obama wanted during the campaign. Baucus' bill is an expensive give-away of taxpayer money to the insurance corporations, and completely, utterly sucks.
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29 months ago: Noni

"The book that quote is from is a piece of *fiction*."

I fully realize that it was published as fiction. It is, non-the less, a quote from a book he wrote.

I must add, I am very disappointed that you would jump to such conclusions, as you frequently do, as "That you would fall for a Jerome Corsi smear throws much of your argumentation into suspicion."

I have never heard of the name you mentioned. I got the bibliography list from the wiki article on Davis, and went through the books one by one. Davis certainly did write the book, under a pen name, and it was written in the first person, and the quote was not attributed to anyone else. Therefore it is a Davis quote.

You might try getting a copy of Obama's book, "dreams of my father", and read up on Obama's first hand account of his relationship with Davis. Start around page 41. Seems Obama was influenced by communist Davis to give him a pretty good review. Davis is just one of a whole litany of radical and communist influences in Obama's life.

I'm guessing with your use of the phrase "some other dittohead" that you are trying to imply that I'm a dottohead also, that cannot think for myself. I'm getting used to it, from you. That's good that you would think so.
I can hold my own.

By the way, have you got a reference to Davis denying the veracity of the introductory statement "...all incidents I have described have been taken from actual experiences.”

This is not a smear, or a lie. This is an actual book, written by Frank Marshall Davis, Obama's mentor.
29 months ago: OOTB, that's either extremely intellectually dishonest, or you've never encountered first-person narrative before. First-person narrative is a way of putting the reader directly inside the head of the character. The "Sam Spade" character in the Maltese Falcon, for instance. Wait, you're not about to argue that the Maltese Falcon was an autobiography and that Dashiell Hammett was just Sam Spade's pen name, are you?

"Davis certainly did write the book, under a pen name, and it was written in the first person, and the quote was not attributed to anyone else. Therefore it is a Davis quote."

Oh, so I guess you *are* going to make that argument. OK... "Sex Rebel" is a work of fiction, OOTB, regardless of which narrative voice it was written in.

As for the introductory sentence, did you ever see the movie Fargo? It opened with a similar disclaimer, and it was similarly fictitious. *All* memoir-novels made joke claims to being accurate memoirs. It was part of the art form.
29 months ago: Please, OOTB, just admit that this is debunked. The guy wasn't a statutory rapist, and using a piece of fiction he wrote as "evidence" is just silly.

As for "Dreams from (not of) my Father," I highly doubt you've read it. You know where the first mention of "Frank" is, but can you find me the time when Frank tutored young Barack in communism? No, because it's not there. Can you find me the time Barack embraced all of Frank's beliefs? No, because he doesn't.

Dittoheads... I used that to describe what appeared to be your unfortunate sources of information. Since Jerome Corsi's book, "The Obama Nation" is the most well-known use of the Frank Marshall Davis smear, I just assumed you had gotten it from him. If not, I apologize.

But I will not apologize for calling it a smear, because that's what it is. You say, "This is not a smear, or a lie. This is an actual book, written by Frank Marshall Davis, Obama's mentor." Might as well start quoting from a book by Robert Heinlein to prove he's really an alien, then. I'm sure you can find something he wrote with a first-person narrative.

Come on... You're better than this. Give up on this ridiculous guilt-by-association smear.
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29 months ago: "Give up on this ridiculous guilt-by-association smear."

So you admit that not all conservatives, or even all tea party attendees are represented by the misspelled signs, or even all religious right wingers.......
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29 months ago: Oh yeah, I thought I had corrected that Obama book title, must have refreshed while I was bouncing around from page to age.

Some people act like an entire half of the population can be judged by the small percentage of kooks. Well, one hundred percent of the President Obamas in the country have Frank, and Ray, and Barry Sr., and Ayers, and Jones, and on and on to count as friends
29 months ago: * Frank
Ummm, didn't I just debunk the Frank thing a few posts up? Could have sworn...

* Ray
Who?

* Barack Obama Sr.
Wait, are you trying to say Obama could have chosen a different father?

* Bill Ayers
::Groan::
I don't even have the stamina to bother with this one. I'll let Snopes and FactCheck do the job... again.
Snopes: http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/ayers.asp
FactCheck: http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/he_lied_about_bill_ayers.html

* Van Jones
I thought we'd hashed this one out a while ago. Van Jones used to be a communist, but later repudiated communism and even wrote a book (for which he earned dirty capitalist money) extolling the virtues of green capitalism.

So your long list of all these evil communists Obama surrounds himself with boils down to an elderly guy he knew as a kid, his own father, a guy who *everyone* in Chicago politics knows, even the Republicans, and someone who actively rejects communism today. I suppose all told they sum up to 1 full communist, if you round up.

But seriously, which "Ray" are you talking about?

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29 months ago: Frank* No, Noni, you didn't debunk anything, you made a few statements, unsubstantiated claims, with the exception of the fact that Davis's book was published as a work of erotic fiction. That does not change the fact that a dope peddling communist spent many hours with Obama during his formative youth.

Ray* OK. I admit I had my wires crossed on that one. I must have been thinking Abongo Roy Obama, his older brother. He is alleged to be a radical militant, opposing the "poisoning influences of the west."


Obama, Sr.* Without a lengthy harangue about missing the point, I will say, I never said anything about choosing all of these associates, I merely pointed out that he was influenced by them.

Ayers*
From the Factcheck article you listed

"Voters may differ in how they see Ayers, or how they see Obama’s interactions with him. We’re making no judgment calls on those matters. What we object to are the McCain-Palin campaign’s attempts to sway voters – in ads and on the stump – with false and misleading statements about the relationship"

The Snopes article proves nothing either, except what Obama and Ayers have to say on the subject.

Van Jones* Watch his Feb. 2009 speech to Berkely, in which he states that green capitalism is the vehicle in which to include the introduction of communist policies, and that he is capitalism's best friend, "for now, but only for now."


So you decided to ignore the moral to my little meandering sidetrack?
29 months ago: Pretty much, yeah, since I don't believe "an entire half of the population can be judged by the small percentage of kooks." I believe the Republican party - which is currently nowhere near half the population - can be judged for not loudly, vociferously denouncing the tea party kooks in its midst, including the ones who use guilt-by-association tactics to claim Obama is a terrorist or communist.
29 months ago: Oh, and can you point me to that video of Van Jones? If what you say is true, I could be wrong about him.
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29 months ago: They would probably say the rest of the country can be judged for not vociferously denouncing a President who would let his mysterious past continue to be such an issue of divisiveness in our already fragile, newly emerging society. His silence, (and his public opinion) has set race relations back 30 years already, and it can only get worse.

I mean, really, what's he afraid of happening, by him releasing the records. I'm interested in opinions here. Why do you think he will not satisfy the public's curiosity about his past? Certainly not a sense of privacy. A man with two books about himself at the age of 47 is not a particularly private person.
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29 months ago: http://berc.berkeley.edu/video

Then scroll down to video.

Pay close attention to the "How's that capitalism working for you?" when asked by the young lady about his seeming Marxist policies. You have to listen closely to understand the young lady's question, which draws laughter from the more seasoned Berkley attendees.

Other cool quotes

"This movement is deeper than a solar panel, deeper than a solar panel. Don't stop there. Don't stop there. No, we're going to change the whole system. We're going to change the whole thing."

"In this stage of the struggle, and I'll only speak to this stage of the struggle, I'm the best (mumbled) capitalist ever had. Thank you very much."

29 months ago: Yes, they probably would say something like that. And it would be kooky of them, since Obama doesn't have a "mysterious past." But I do believe you accurately quote the incrementally more rational thoughts the kooks have when they're not screaming about the horrors of medical care in Canada and the UK, questioning Obama's place of birth and religion, or worrying themselves sick over the government intruding on Medicare.

As for releasing his records... What records? His birth certificate? Already released. If you're referring to his school records from Columbia or Occidental, the early ones are probably personally embarrassing. He was an admitted drug user at the time, and it no doubt caused him to suffer academically. But what would his school records show beyond someone who was doing poorly, got himself off drugs, and then did well enough to get into Harvard Law? I mean, this is all easily deduced stuff. What's the big mystery? What would knowing his specific grades for specific classes actually do for anyone?
29 months ago: Thanks for the video link, I'll watch it.
29 months ago: Hey, can you give me some times for those moments you want me to see? This is a very long video.
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29 months ago: At 1:10:30 The question by the young lady about Marxist policies.

At 1:18:20 The lead up to the quote, and I think he says, "At this stage in the struggle, (lowers voice confidentially) And I'm only speaking to this stage in the struggle...I'm the best friend capitalists never had, thank you very much."

I'll have to look for the other one later.

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