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Scientology verses the Drug Companies

Posted 16 months ago|63 comments|1,989 views
Written by
Frederick
Canada
Scientology versus the Drug Companies

In 1955 Dr. Jonas Salk developed the first successful polio vaccine. He decided not to patent his invention knowing that by not doing so, he would receive no profits from it. Polio has now been eradicated from most countries of the world.

If only we could all show the selflessness of Dr. Salk.

It is certainly not reflected in the actions of the people who run modern drug companies. They, like other large corporations, are interested in profits for their stockholders. Too often they have turned up on the short side of moral issues.

They are perceived as not having disclosed side effects of drugs, having aggressively marketed useless or near useless drugs, having promoted drugs to those who don't need them, having spent unconscionable amounts of money courting doctors for marketing, and cherry picking the studies which make their drugs look good while concealing the rest.

When this is factored in with the cost of medicines and the necessity for using them it is easy to see why they are trusted no more than oil and tobacco companies.

What I am saying is not at all radical but a reflection of news items from recent years.

There are radical drug company haters. Some of them believe that the drug companies have a cure for all cancers and are withholding it from us. The drug company motive is said to be that treating people is far more profitable than curing people. I ask these people, where are the wikileaks on the cancer cure? Where are the whistle blowers? Where are the intercepted phone calls, memos and emails? Why did Sheila Basrur, Ontario's Chief Medical Officer, die of cancer at age 51? Did she take one for the team? Why do the mothers of pharmaceutical executives die of cancer? I put these critics on par with those who say there is a pill that added to water will turn it into gasoline and those who say the Jews planned 9/11.

Still, I will further appeal to their sense of logic. After this cure for cancer is found, another disease will take cancers place as a primary instrument of human death. This has happened for tuberculosis, polio, diabetes, smallpox, the plague, typhus and diarrhea. Treatments are usually expensive in the final years of life. The drug companies will continue to turn a profit.

Moderating this problem are the American Surgeon-General, his counterparts in the various countries of the world, various government medical organizations, various organizations of doctor's, nurses and pharmacists, legislators who look for honesty in advertising, the press, concerned internet sites like quackwatch and James Randi and all thinking people. There is also a tiny organization called the Citizens Commission on Human Rights or the CCHR. The Church of Scientology established it in 1969. The title seems disingenuous in many ways.

Citizens—Almost all of the members are Scientologists
Commission—This is not "a special group delegated to consider some matter" as is a good definition of Commission. The matter has been considered. They exist to carry out the plans of Scientology founder L.Ron Hubbard.
Human Rights—They are primarily concerned with criticizing health fields while presenting Scientology therapies as the reasonable alternative.

Not surprisingly there is never a critical word from CCHR about the actions of Scientology. Nor is there ever a word about the Marcabs from outer space that according to Scientology are responsible for much of the misery on Planet Earth. If they brought the Marcabs into it even fewer people would pay attention to the CCHR.

The CCHR attacks on the drug companies are in the spirit of political attack ads. They point out real or imagined faults of the drug companies, hoping that the public will turn to Scientology's solutions after suspicion of the opponent is created. I believe that many of things the drug companies do are self-serving rather than in the service of humanity. But I also believe that Scientology does not work in the service of humanity and is a complicated scheme, calculated to gain power and money.

To take a closer look at just of few of Hubbard's medical claims—in Dianetics, the Modern Science of Mental Health, best-seller of the early 1950's which was presented to me as the first book of Scientology. Hubbard claimed that through his methods vision would be restored to optimum. Yet past president of the church Heber Jentszch wears glasses. Even Hubbard, himself, can be seen wearing glasses in photos taken later in his life. Hubbard claimed that asthma would be cured; yet chairman of the board David Miscavige is asthmatic. Hubbard claimed that allergies would be cured yet he died with Vistaril in his veins. His critics claimed it was used to reduce anxiety after his stroke; his followers said that he died on a farm where many allergens were in the air. Vistaril is also a treatment for allergies.

What pharmaceuticals have given us is longer life and cures for diseases that now seem so far in the past that few people in the Western world even remember them. Scientology has given humanity little. It has given its followers hope and with it occasional piece of mind, but again, it has given little that can't be found elsewhere, for less money and without a delusional view of the universe attached.

Scientology is most critical of drugs used in psychiatry. Scientology has told us that psychiatrists are responsible for the holocaust and for the events of 9-11 and that intergalactic psychiatrists paved the way for the Marcab invasion of 75 million years ago. They have a travelling exhibit called, Psychiatry, an Industry of Death. This, of course, ties in with their belief that mental health problems are cured with their own brand of spiritual counselling. To quote their current leader David Miscavige, they want to "replace psychiatry in all its forms".

The situation is bizarre. A psychiatrist might say the Scientologists are fixated on them. Scientologists don't seem to be dealing with available evidence but instead seem to believe everything they have been told by L.Ron Hubbard about the field of mental health. Initially, Hubbard gave credit to early psychiatrists in influencing his "research". Some speculate that after psychologists and psychiatrists rebuffed his "science of the mind," Dianetics, he turned on them.

For me, on the one hand there are drugs dispensed by knowledgeable supervised professionals though often driven by the profit motive. On the other hand there are untested, unproven, unsupervised therapies from a group that calls itself a religion when it is convenient and a science when it suits them. The people who take the medical drugs usually, but not always, need a great deal of support in their lives. The Scientology therapies are there, in Hubbard's own words, to make the able more able. Scientologists are unable and unwilling to treat the horrible, debilitating disorders.

Neither answer is ideal but the medical and/or pharmaceutical answer is far superior. Ultimately it means finding a doctor you trust while personally researching the disorder and its treatment. A person must be aware that many of the treatments provided by medical science and the pharmaceutical industry won't work well at all. But each day, more answers are available and some of the treatments and cures available today would look like magic to earlier generations. On the other side is a philosophy designed to gain power and riches for its founder, whose members are severely deluded and whose results don't even vaguely approach their claims.
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COMMENTS
skeptic
skeptic
Canada
16 months ago: Thanks for shedding some light on the devious machinations of the Church of Scientology.
redrunner
redrunner
Los Angeles, CA
16 months ago: Scientology is making a stand and fighting for that stand with CCHR -- and if you look at their website, CCHR.org, you'll see that they've collected a lot of evidence throughout the years that makes them believe what they do. I personally don't think that Psychiatry is entirely evil or false, but I have had a personal experience with a family member who was misdiagnosed and mistreated. I am glad that Scientology's CCHR serves as a watchdog for medical malpractice in Scientology -- otherwise, who else would keep them accountable? The mission of CCHR and their determined execution certainly makes them better than organizations and groups who just gather for socials or parties, with no positive agenda for the greater good.
jandar
jandar
Cape Neddick, ME
16 months ago: for the greatest good ..you say ..you trollin.

Be fore warned there is little to no credible Medical Research cited on the CCHR web site. What you get is Paranoid reactionary quackery. that Mirrors the "GLIB" paranoia of its Founder L Ron Hubbard.

The CCHR is on record saying the 911 tragedies were perpetrated by Psychiatrists.

And claiming that Al-Qaeda #2 man Ayman al-Zawahiri is a Psychiatrists. as thier proof of the conspiracy. this is the type of "Fact" twisting you get from the CCHR

the facts are Al-Qaeda #2 man Ayman al-Zawahiri is an eye doctor by profession not a a Psychiatrists.

what the CCHR has proven itself to be is a HATE GROUP. that in its zealotry wants to destroy Psychiatry and Psychiatrists.

Scientology advocates violence against psychiatry (WATCH)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfu7Sr50N...
jandar
jandar
Cape Neddick, ME
16 months ago: the Leader of Scientology made all kinds of claims citing corporations in his speech that are pure lies and Propaganda

and all of the claims have been debunked.

but then the speech was designed to pull the wool over the eyes of his target audience

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfu7Sr50N...

what you have is a speech filled with rhetoric and pure propaganda written to fleece the audience he is speaking to.


Frederick
Frederick
Canada
16 months ago: None of the groups I mentioned gather for socials or parties and have no positive agenda for the greater good. Why would you say such a thing?
NishDish
NishDish
Los Angeles, CA
16 months ago: "Scientology has told us that psychiatrists are responsible for the holocaust and for the events of 9-11 and that intergalactic psychiatrists paved the way for the Marcab invasion of 75 million years ago."

The banner of "published opinion" does NOT give you the license to blatantly lie. It's ridiculous that youre attacking an organization (CCHR) that is fundamentally in agreement with your critisism of large pharma corporations. Lastly, CCHR is not totally comprised of Scientologists but contains members of all walks of life.
Frederick
Frederick
Canada
16 months ago: Do an hour of research on your own. In the end it will save you money, time and misery.
16 months ago: Scientology is the only corporation that hires or recruits volunteers to scan the internet for anything critical of it. These clients of Scientology then proceed to accuse the author of the article or blog of crimes, or being a liar. They also will try desperately to change the subject, so as to avoid further exposure of the Scientology enterprise's criminal activity, or secrets, such as the story of Xenu.

One of Scientology's posts above accuse the author of lying that the Scientology corporation tells its clients that psychiatrists are responsible for the Holocaust and 9/11. Yet it is easy to verify that this is exactly Scientology's position.

On Scientology's website scientologyagainstdrugs.wordpress.com you can find an article from 2007 entitled
"Psychiatrists admit they created the euthanasia program and ideology that fueled Hitlers holocaust"

Google "Scientology Holocaust" for more like these.

In the Huffington Post newspaper Feb 17 2009 there is an article pointing to a YouTube video where a Scientology executive expounds on how 9/11 was caused by psychiatry. Ironically Scientology claimed copyright on the video.
The video is still available though, with a search on YouTube for "Scientology 911"

It is quite easy, with a quick google search, to disprove Scientology's accusations that the author of this blog lied, and prove quite definitively that it is the Scientology enterprise that professionally engages in propaganda and disinformation.
16 months ago:
What an excellent, well written article this is. Scientology was founded by a man who flunked out of his college physics class (ironic, because Scientology pretends their founder, L Ron Hubbard, was a physicist!!! ) and then dropped out of college. The name for CCHR is deliberately misleading - in order to give credibility to a very shady group.

Scientology is capitalism at its worse - it's so called "technology" is based on junk science; it uses deceitful commercial advertising (promising to cure any and all afflictions) and then hides behind being a religion to escape false advertising complaints; it will sue, stalk, and harrass anyone that criticizes them (just ask their hundreds/thousands of ex-members!).

For more information google Steve Hassan and Freedom of mind, Steve is a qualified mental health counseor who has over 25 years dealing with dangerous cults.

For more information go to: http://vimeo.com/17042250 ;
; http://vimeo.com/freedomofmind ; http://www.xenu.net/ ;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology...
: http://www.tmz.com/2010/12/16/shayne-lam...
http://cofsexit.blogspot.com/2010/12/bec... ;

Bert1000
Bert1000
New York, NY
16 months ago: Scientology front groups such as the CCHR, Drug Free Marshals or Volunteer Ministers are meant to create positive associations in the public's mind, first with L. Ron Hubbard and then with Scientology. These groups do nothing beyond rhetoric and photo ops, and serve as recruiting vehicles for Scientology proper. Any genuine criticism of big pharma is contaminated by Scientology's exploitation of the issue. Scientology is being systematically dismantled from inside and out, and when it is gone we will have one less destructive, criminal cult on our hands.
thetagal
thetagal
Elma, WA
16 months ago: That isn't correct when the writer of the article said that LRH said that with his methods vision would be restored to optimum. That is taking what he said out of context. He also said about wearing glasses for reading as you got older.

He was only talking about psychosomatic effects on eyesight. My eyesight improved on reading the book! Before I read the book I was having trouble focusing, the lines on the page seemed to jump around. By the time I finished the book, the lines stayed where they belonged.

Don't underestimate the power of Dianetic auditing. True, it only handles psychosomatic illnesses. If you back is out of whack see a chiropractor.
16 months ago: "You are only three or four hours from taking your glasses off for keeps." - L. Ron Hubbard, "Eyesight and glasses," "Dianetic Auditor's Bulletin," Vol. 2, No. 7, January 1952
jandar
jandar
Cape Neddick, ME
16 months ago: what you mean to say is "If you back is out of whack see a Scientologist who is a chiropractor" Seeing How Scientology targets the recruiting of Chiropractors. through Singer Enterprises

there is no scientific evidence for spinal subluxations and none have ever been observed by medical practitioners such as orthopedic surgeons, neurosurgeons, or radiologists.


Dianetics auditing is nothing more than a placebo

Next you'll claim it has improved your IQ, improved ability to communicate, enhanced memory and is a cure all-there is NO scientific studies have ever verified these claims.

its a placebo..for the gullible and willfully ignorant.."Keep swallowing that Hubbard Horse pill if you choose" but stop pushing the BS.


RosettaStein
RosettaStein
Burbank, CA
16 months ago: Frederick, thank you for not being as toxic as many who criticize Scientology. But you misunderstand, and therefore misrepresent, quite a lot:

CCHR doesn't criticize health fields broadly. It polices two related businesses: drug-centric psychiatry and the divisions of drug companies that create and sell psychotropic drugs. Those two are most often, most flagrantly, guilty of the heinous behavior you cite above.

No CCHR ad touts Scientology. It's in CCHR ads because ranters accuse us of "hiding" the relationship if we omit it. The haters--*not* including you in that lot--damn us either way! In fact, we can't even accept for counselling people with heavy histories of psychiatric drugs. Their mind is too badly damaged by drugs to do well.

And we Scientologist believe as we darn well please. I ignored CCHR for a decade. Then I learned that the intellects of two very above-average people *I *personally *knew had been destroyed by licensed psychiatrists' over-prescription of legal psychiatric drugs. Suddenly, CCHR's work made very good sense.

(One of those was an attractive female so her male psychiatrist may have had other reasons for sequestering her in his clinic over a weekend and leaving her with amnesia of his actions.)

Important: Dianetics or Scientology will *very* often help eyesight, asthma, allergies. I've even seen it cure warts! A friend's vaginal cancer disappeared and remains gone after 30 years.

*BUT* counselling ONLY rids one of *psychosomatic* causes. Obviously, physical factors can cause any malady. Just as obviously, physical factors deteriorate with age.

Calling Scientologists "deluded" is awful! Why would I--high IQ, college grad, business owner--continue Scientology if it didn't deliver *very* tangible results in my life? When I counsel others, we both see the benefits squarely in front of us. These can't just be imaginary!

And these benefits include the *very real* awakenings one feels while solo-auditing (self-counselling) on OT III.
Frederick
Frederick
Canada
16 months ago: There have been no harsh retorts from drug company executives. The questioning or angry replies have been from people who give their addresses as being in or around Los Angeles, where there are so many Scientologists. They seem to be Scientologists. Should I have expected otherwise?

I understand Scientology quite well. I have another essay on Rantrave about my understanding of it. Find it by clicking on my name and following the links.

I realize that the so-called Citizens Commission on Human Rights zeros in on the mental health fields, not counting, of course, the Church of Scientology. I know that the CCHR criticisms go far beyond my own, ultimately making little sense. With CCHR the problem is picking out the sensible statements from foolish and self-serving ones. I have gone to their website. I would not recommend it to anyone.

My own experience with Scientologists is that they are dangerously sceptical of the entire medical field.

I remember Scientologists saying that they would not accept people into auditing that had histories with psychiatrists. I never saw that happen. One auditor told me though, that every preclear he had audited (about 25 I would think) had used LSD. The LSD users were not turned away because their minds had been too badly damaged. Their money was good.
Frederick
Frederick
Canada
16 months ago: The relationship between CCHR and Scientology is hidden. I don't know of any other way to describe it.

I believe that Scientology will cure warts. Warts are a very weak virus. Placebo cures will work.

Dianetics, Chapter 5, Book 2, doesn't say that "eye trouble, asthma…allergies" will often be helped. It says, "… are uniformly cured by dianetic therapy. (And the word cured is used in its fullest sense)" That's what it says. The context, and I paraphrase, is that the claims have been tested in 270 cases and Dianetics works as consistently as chemistry or physics. I must conclude that Hubbard lied. I don't believe that there was research. I believe that he made it up. When expensive services are sold by the Scientology, based on Hubbards statements, and the Scientologists themselves don't believe them to be true, I have to question their ethics. If they DO believe that these disorders are cured consistently, I question their rationality. Was L.Ron Hubbard wrong? It would be nice to hear a Scientologist say that he was wrong, as simple as that.


As for the cancer, most likely it was misdiagnosed by an otherwise knowledgeable individual, diagnosed by someone that had no idea what he or she was talking about, or the person was lying about the cancer and never had cancer at all.

Frederick
Frederick
Canada
16 months ago: Scientologists may believe that they are thinking what they darn well please and that is why others say they are brainwashed. There is a great deal of pressure from the ethics office, from peers and most of all from wasting time and money on courses and levels, to NOT believe as you darn well please. Start telling people that L.Ron Hubbard deserved to be found guilty of fraud and sentenced to four years and we will see how long you believe what you darn well please.

I completely believe that psychiatric drugs destroyed the intellects of your two friends. I am sorry. I really am. I might add though, that the same drugs may have helped a hundred thousand others, or maybe not. Maybe your friends were in dire straights and couldn't live with themselves without psychiatric intervention, or maybe not. I think the key is that of all the medical sciences, psychiatry is probably the least scientific. There are many, many things medicine can't do but they try. At times, there is nowhere else to go that has any credibility. On the other hand, Scientology is horribly expensive, time consuming, untested by outside sources and can't do what it claims to do. There is really no comparison.

Don't make too many suggestions about the sexual ethics of psychiatrists, especially when the suggestions are so vague. I don't know why you would do this. The instances of sexual misconduct among doctors are very low (when actual statistics are examined) and it is among the lowest with psychiatrists.

Some high IQ, educated people go into Scientology. There is no denying that. But they don't go in because of their education or intelligence. They go in because of their emotional needs. Their intelligence helps them to defend their delusions and they probably stay in longer than someone who can more easily be convinced by reason. And Scientology does have some benefits along with its detriments. Hubbard had a keen view of some aspects of human nature and it can be very meaningful to someone who has mismanaged their lives, is in tragic circumstance or has yet to develop a personal philosophy. And he borrowed a lot, mostly from mid-century psychiatry. Some of it works. And, his promises give people hope.

The OT awakenings are unreal. If they were real I would have seen an OT phenomenon by now. I have been waiting since 1969. I know four OTs very well. Having left the cult and come to their senses, none of them can demonstrate any special abilities. Again, deluded is the perfect word to describe Scientologists. And they become more deluded as they go up the bridge into OT. The delusions exhibited by CCHR reflect the parent company.
16 months ago: Dear Frederick,

You said:

The relationship between CCHR and Scientology is hidden. I don't know of any other way to describe it.

And I may quote from this website here, directly from CCHR:
http://www.cchr.org/about-us/what-is-cch...

CCHR was co-founded in 1969 by the Church of Scientology and Professor of Psychiatry Emeritus Dr. Thomas Szasz at a time when patients were being warehoused in institutions and stripped of all constitutional, civil and human rights.

Now, how is that hidden, when it is publicly on the website and was always promoted in every CCHR sponsored book, that I have ever seen.

And now, what if it is hidden really, even if it is not? The CCHR is humanitarian organization, which is making results in cleaning up the field of mental health abuse. And that is what it counts.

I have met so many people grateful that CCHR exists. I mean, there may be twice as many rants against it, but CCHR is doing betterment in the society, even many psychiatrists are happy that CCHR exists.
Frederick
Frederick
Canada
16 months ago: The relationship is hidden, the website continues to hide it. You hide it as well, or you show a lack of knowledge.

When Scientology gained it's tax-free status in the United States, part of the agreement involved naming the organizations controlled by the Religious Technology Center.

To quote IRS form 1023, "At the top of the "Command Channels" are management corporations, such as the Religious Technology Center, the Church of Spiritual Technology or the Church of Scientology International, who own and license the Scientology trademarks and service marks to other entities and corporations within the internal hierarchy system of the network[2]."
Citizens Commistion on Human Rights International is one of the organizations listed as a "Secular and Social Management Entity".
Plainly, it was not merely founded by the Church or Scientology and an extremely controversial psychiatrist, it is controlled by David Miscavige, who, as you know, is the Chairman of the Board and the ecclesiastical international head of Scientology.

Continued...
Frederick
Frederick
Canada
16 months ago: The psychiatrist, Thomas Szasz wrote a book called, "The Myth of Mental Illness". The list of groups that reject his opinion that mental illness is a myth include the American Medical Association (AMA), American Psychiatric Association (APA) and the National Institute of Mental Health (NIMH). Every group will have its heretics. Szasz's opinions had limited validity in 1960 when the book was published. Today, the validity is diminished even more so.

The website to which you have refered me, states on one page of dozens, that "CCHR was co-founded in 1969 by the Church of Scientology and Professor of Psychiatry Emeritus Dr. Thomas Szasz". That is it. Though I stand to be corrected, I have followed the link that you have provided. A person could easily miss the reference and think that the website is not connected to a church that believes the source of mental illness is body thetans that were exploded in volcanos 75 million years ago and now cling to us.

No where does the website say that the Church of Scientology controls it and that CCHR is one of its arms.

That is why I wrote, "The relationship between CCHR and Scientology is hidden. I don't know of any other way to describe it." I stand by that.

Now to answer your question, "And now, what if it is hidden really, even if it is not?" As I pointed out, it muddies the waters. It is controlled by a group that wants to (to quote Miscavige) "eliminate psychiatry in all its forms". It wants to replace psychiatry with Scientology. That reminds me of the Bob Dylan line, "That's to say like if you got a cold take a shot of malaria".
16 months ago: I have just demonstrated that it is not hidden, and you now confirmed that CCHR was one of organizations listed as secular and social management entity and you claim it is controlled by David Miscavige. Alright, let us assume that is true?

CCHR is a humanitarian organization with far reaching results and social betterment all over the world.

So, what is wrong with that?
16 months ago: OK Frederick, I am closely following you, sure you are free to rant, but I cannot see what is your point.

CCHR is a humanitarian organization, everything about CCHR is public information:
http://www.cchr.org

They make results. I wonder if you are helping others as much as one CCHR staff is helping others.

But your ranting is supposed to tell how that is "bad", but for whom?
What is wrong with the CCHR exactly?
skeptic
skeptic
Canada
16 months ago: RosettaStein, to give Scientology the credit that it is due, it is a brilliantly clever system to induce self-delusion in its adherents. You have been highly trained to fool yourself. Despite the seemingly tangible results, most Scientolotgists eventually leave the cult, and they regret that they had invested so much time and money into it. In the end, the supposedly tangible results are not real. Why do you think the great L. Ron Hubbard died at the age of 74? This is not exactly an impressive longevity for the supreme Operating Thetan of the universe. Living to be 150 years old would have been a tangible result. Feeling good about something is not a tangible result, even if you think it is.

I realize that Scientology has an elaborate rationalization for the many Scientologists who abandon the cult and are highly critical of it. Supposedly all critics are "suppressive people" who don't want other people to get better, but that theory is just part of the trap that L. Ron Hubbard has constructed for you. There are lots of selfish people in the world, and lots of cruel and sadistic people, but no one is actually engaged in a campaign to prevent others from getting better - that is a Scientology delusion. Of course, you will dismiss me as just another suppressive person for making this statement - but even so, there is a good chance that you will eventually figure out that the results you have obtained in Scientology are not as real as you thought they were, and you too will leave the cult and will be declared to be a suppressive person.
16 months ago: Advocating for human rights is now devious? Too bad this guy got it wrong as they all do. None actually have experience with the subject, never read a single book.

I guess you love all the pharmacuticals in your drinking water, huh? High priced poisons just pissed out and what do you have to show for it? Answer: Nothing but madness, fear and loathing.
skeptic
skeptic
Canada
16 months ago: Obviously, advocating for human rights is not devious. Claiming that you are advocating for human rights when you are actually doing nothing of the kind is devious. The Church of Scientology (and its various front groups) has never cared anything about human rights, it pretends to do so as a public relations exercise. If you were to become familiar with the many violations of human rights that the cult itself commits, you would not consider them to be such great advocates for human rights. Find out about the working conditions of Sea Org staff members, the use of child labor, the Rehabilitation Project Force, etc.

The Church of Scientology has consistently produced more madness, fear and loathing than any amount of pharmaceuticals in the drinking water.
16 months ago: Again, none who are so authoritative about the Church of Scientology have no experience with it directly. Not one book read. The cynicism is based strictly on rumor and cabal. That is nothing short of madness.

The psychiatric and pharmacutical companies have caused the madness, the fear and loathing. If you examine their statistics honestly one would see this, provided one has the obility to observe without bias.

Go get a Dianetics book and read it. It is basically the totality of the entire subject of Scientology and stands true to this day. Those not subject to the pain-drug-hypnosis through crazy people's rumors and TV's barrage of drug spam might get the actual importance which remains the most comprehensive work on the human mind to date and on a workingman's level. Dianetics is so simple because maybe how one's mind actually works is? Even children can use theirs. How complicated can it be?
skeptic
skeptic
Canada
16 months ago: Bert100 has already made an excellent reply, but let me add that I too have read the books of L. Ron Hubbard and I know quite a lot about Scientology, doubtlessly more than you do. Your assertion that I have not read even a single book is based upon your delusional belief that no one who is familiar with the writings of L. Ron Hubbard would be able to disagree with them (suppressive people not included, presumably). You have an extremely limited understanding of this subject. Scientology is riddled with lies and errors, and it was never designed to help anyone other than L. Ron Hubbard, who created it solely as a device to gain wealth and power for himself, at the expense of his credulous followers. Now that L. Ron Hubbard is dead, Scientology is like a machine that was left on my mistake; it continues to run, but has no actual purpose anymore. The supposed aims of Scientology, a world without war, crime, or insanity, were never the actual aims, and Scientology has done absolutely nothing to achieve those supposed aims, and if anything, has done the opposite.

You may believe that Scientology is nothing like what I am describing, but as you continue to devote your time and money to the futile search for OT abilities, you will eventually discover that you have gotten nowhere. It could take you a long time, however. Too bad that you have to waste so much of your life. I am trying to give you a shortcut.
Bert1000
Bert1000
New York, NY
16 months ago: Marc Headley, Claire Headley, Nancy Many, Jeff Hawkins, Marty Rathbun, Mike Rinder, Paul Haggis, Tory Christman, Amy Scobee, Louis Garcia....and many more, have had 20+ years each in Scientology, including some who were OT VIII's, and they have all denounced Scientology as a dangerous, abusive cult.

Personally I have read Dianetics and several other key works of Hubbard's, and found them to be imaginative, but far from scientific. If Hubbard was sincere in what he wrote then he clearly had a limited grip on reality. His claims (perfect recall for "clears" or master over "MEST" for OT's) are simply bold assertions that are demonstrably false.

Scientologists are no doubt intelligent, caring people that want to do right by humanity. However, the denial of honest inquiry and the self deception required by Scientology should be the first indications that the humanitarian instict has been co-opted for the sole purpose of propogating the group and enriching its leader.
Frederick
Frederick
Canada
16 months ago: For Wildman--

Bert gives a very short list of critics who have been deeply involved in Scientology and realized that they made a mistake. Ever wonder what happened to the first clear? His name was John McMaster. He became a critic. Who audited L.Ron? His name was David Mayo and he became a critic too. They realized the extent of their mistake as did I.

I have read about twenty books by Hubbard including two of his SF books. I read Dianetics twice. The second time I read it I blue lined all the promises that L.Ron made. I suggest you do the same.

My post, though, is not meant for people like you. I think you are up to your nose in Scientology and it will take a shock far beyond a few paragraphs from me to change your beliefs. The shock will likely come. Almost everyone eventually leaves or gets thrown out. Look around. Where are the Scientologists from the 1950's? Where are the ones from the 1960's when they were claiming 15 million members world wide? In fact, there is no one at the local "church" who predates me. Everyone who predates me, including the "church" presidents and the OSA representitives have left. Locally, current membership seems to be about 1/4 of what it was when I was a member. Please accept my quotations around the word church. Scientology does not have religious status in my country.

My post is put up on rantrave primarily to innoculate people who might find the Scientology argument against the Drug Companies convincing. One day those people might be going through a tough time in their lives and be brought into the cult either through a loved one or through a personality test. Maybe on that day they will remember a bit of my essay, maybe just enough to help them resist the hard sell of your "registrars" (I think of them as salesmen though I am willing to use your word, again, if I put it in quotations).
16 months ago: Frederick wrote:

Citizens—Almost all of the members are Scientologists

I also assume that majority of members are Scientologist, but certainly not "almost all". Even if they are all Scientologists, that makes no difference, as results and social betterment by CCHR is there.

And it is "Citizens" because it helps the citizens WHO ARE NOT SCIENTOLOGIST.

Further, not to forget, Scientologists are citizen and the CCHR is Citizens Commission, as it works for the public benefit of the citizens.

You seem to try to find something wrong in that, but you completely ignore the results of CCHR.

Quotes:

CCHR has documented thousands of individual cases that demonstrate psychiatric drugs and often-brutal psychiatric practices create insanity and cause violence.

Source: http://www.cchr.org/about-us/cchr-accomp...

Quote:

CCHR also documented numerous cases of parents being coerced/pressured or forced to give their children psychiatric drugs as a condition of attending school, including parents charged with medical neglect for refusing to give their child a drug documented to cause suicide and violence. By working with parents, doctors and numerous civil and human rights advocates, this issue was exposed in the national media, was brought before state and federal legislators and resulted in the 2004 passage of the prohibition on forcing parents to put their children on psychiatric drugs.

Source: http://www.cchr.org/about-us/cchr-accomp...

And there are way too numerous results by the CCHR.

Now, be it from Scientology, Scientologists, or whomever, I recognize and value those accomplishments. And as a matter of fact, I learnt about the CCHR sooner than about Scientology, and was not yet a Scientologist and I was member of the CCHR and was helping out in the local chapter.

Your talk is baloney, as you are really not informed or you simply obsessively repeat irrelevant stuff and just try to make it look bad.

None of the persons actually helped by the CCHR, and vast majority of them are not Scientologists, would ever give you any credibility nor believe in that baloney.

Frederick wrote:

Commission—This is not "a special group delegated to consider some matter" as is a good definition of Commission. The matter has been considered. They exist to carry out the plans of Scientology founder L.Ron Hubbard.

You are right, CCHR is there to carry on the plans of Scientology founder L. Ron Hubbard, but not only his plans, but also other people, founders of the CCHR, not being Scientologist and CCHR carry its own program which is not religious but secular program and social betterment.

Commission is a special group delegated to consider some matter, and that is what CCHR is. However, when the title is so much important to you, I doubt you will ever be ABLE, I mean physically and mentally able to see and review and acknowledge all the valuable results that CCHR has done for the society in last decades.

Quote:

CCHR's investigations led to a major private psychiatric hospital chain in the US being investigated by fourteen federal and state investigations for fraud and patient abuse. Before closing, the hospital chain paid out over $1 billion in criminal and civil fines.

Source: FLAG THIS COMMENT
skeptic
skeptic
Canada
16 months ago: Frederick's point about the CCHR remains valid despite your efforts to obfuscate it. The CCHR does not intend to help the mentally ill and does not intend to make psychiatry function better, since it is designed to bring an end to the field of psychiarty, in order to leave Scientology as the sole surviving "authority" (although it has no scientific authority) on the subject of mental illness, and then to leave the mentally ill with no help at all, since Scientology specifically refuses to provide services for the mentally ill, despite claiming to have the best, and only real understanding of mental illness.

The issue becomes confused because there have been real abuses in the field of psychiatry, so anyone who attacks psychiatry may appear to be an actual reformer. However, psychiatrists have also been active in reforming their own field, which today is generally practiced in an ethical manner despite the hysterical complaints of the CCHR and other agents of Scientology. It is also necessary to understand that it is very difficult to deal with mental illness. That is why the Church of Scientology refuses to do so. Those who do take on this tremendous challenge should be given some credit, rather than being attacked for not being perfect. We are far from being able to solve all the problems relating to mental illness, but psychiatry does an infinitely better job at this than Scientology does.

The CCHR is fundamentally dishonest. It is really an elaborate smokescreen for L. Ron Hubbard's personal vendetta against psychiatry, a vendetta which is entirely self-serving, like all his other enterprises. No one is helped by this (not even L. Ron Hubbard, who is of course, long dead, and no longer able to take pleasure in deceiving people).
Frederick
Frederick
Canada
16 months ago: Thanks for the input Skeptic.

For JLouisBiz-- I think I have explained myself pretty well and defended my point of view very well. As I wrote early on, I realize that it takes more than several paragraphs to turn around a Scientologist from his or her way of thinking. My article, as I mentioned, is primarily to inform people who one day might be in a position where they could be brought into Scientology. It is, to borrow a word from the drug companies themselves, to innoculate those people against Scientology.

Your organization was founded by a man who was sentenced to four years in jail in France for fraud. His wife went to jail in the United States for internal espionage. His organization is the only criminally convicted "church" in the history of my country. Bad indicators...

16 months ago: So, you are trying out to "turn around a Scientologst from his or her way of thinking" -- right, interesting game.

France is well known for its historical persecution of religion, throughout the centuries, as France has tried to eradicated Christian religion during the French revolution, then Waldenses, Albigenses, Jansenists, Protestants, Jews, Muslims and also Scientologist.
skeptic
skeptic
Canada
16 months ago: Naturally you claim that the French, true to their long history of religious persecution, are religiously intolerant of Scientology. But Scientology is not actually a religion, nor is it a science either. It is an elaborate confidence racket, which seeks to disguise itself as both a religion and a science. The so-called Church of Scientology does not deserve immunity from the law, just because it calls itself a church. If it were that simple, the Mafia could just re-name itself the Church of the Mafia, and thereby avoid criminal prosecution.
16 months ago: I would surely take your statement how Scientology is not a religion, if you would not be as anonymous and if you would show credentials and authority on such a subject. But that is missing.

The religious scholars, non-Scientologists, have quite some other opinion, and claim that Scientology is in fact a bona fide religion.

When the Internal Revenue Service of United States, has publicly admitted and determined that Scientology is a bona fide religion and tax exempt for religious purposes... than I take it seriously.

When a professor like: Per-Arne Berglie, Professor, History of Religion, University of Stockholm, Stockholm, Sweden, says, that Scientology is religion... that is serious.

When someone with PHD, like M. Darrol Bryant, Ph.D. Professor of Religion and Culture, Renison College, University of Waterloo, Waterloo, Ontario, Canada says that Scientology is a religion... that it probably is.

And when an anonymous skeptic comes around with loud bombastic declamation expressed with strong emotion... than it is just fun.


skeptic
skeptic
Canada
16 months ago: Of course you would like to know who I really am, so that I can be personally attacked, lied about, frivolously sued, and ruined by the cult, in accordance with the "Fair Game" policy of your corrupt and criminal organization. However, this discussion, like all other discussions on this web-site, will remain anonymous.

It is true that some religious scholars have declared Scientology to be a religion. Scientology has gone to some pains to create a superficial appearance of being a religion, since that gives them a useful legal status, an undeserved tax exemption in some countries, and so forth. Religious rituals have been devised, such as a marriage ceremony and a funeral ceremony, and the ordination of so-called ministers. Scientologists (including yourself) know that these ceremonies are entirely incidental to what Scientology actually does, insofar as they have no bearing on your case state or your progress toward the (imaginary) state of OT. Scientology actually has no religious purpose, and exists solely for the enrichment and glorification of its megalomaniac founder, the late L. Ron Hubbard. It is a criminal organization disguised as a religion.

If you think that my statement is fun, terrific, enjoy yourself while you can. I'm glad to entertain you. Eventually, after the cult has consumed all your time and money and left you with nothing but illusions, all of this may not seem to be as much fun.
16 months ago: Sorry, Mr. skeptic, but I am bound to some common sense principles, not to lie about anybody, further, not to attack anybody, and I don't know why I would sue you? For what? For speaking out on an Internet page? Give me a break.

Don't be overly paranoid, you will have nightmares of someone coming after you, make some parties, make fun, go to the city, see more people and try to turn the dark side of light into a positive, bright side. Like Monthy Python circus once sung: "Always look at the bright side of life".

You have some very distorted view of what Scientology is and what is not, and that shows me that you actually have never visited a Scientology organization, never talked to Scientologists directly and did not see much with your eyes, haven't you?

Scientology church is always open for sighting and you may make all your questions directly on the place.

For those wishing to find out what Scientology is, there is that excellent website http://www.whatisscientology.org/
skeptic
skeptic
Canada
16 months ago: You are being either very naive or very dishonest, when you claim that Scienotlogy does not attack, lie about, or sue people who criticize it. Scientology has a long history of doing exactly that. Furthermore that is what the official policy of the organization requires it to do. That policy is called "The Fair Game Law". As a result of legal problems in New Zealand, there was another policy issued which states that the practice of declaring people fair game will cease, but that in all other respects Scientology ethics policies and practices remain the same, which means that people will still be treated as fair game, but the cult just won't call them fair game. The cult will be sneakier about it.

Your conclusion that I have never visited a Scientology organization or talked to Scientologists directly is entirely false. In fact, I was a Scientologist for a number of years, I know a great many Scientologists and ex-Scientologists personally, and I am a former Sea Org member. I have no doubt that I know more about Scientology than you do. That is exactly why I am sharing my knowledge with you. But if you prefer, you can find out the hard way. Your needle may be floating now, but sooner or later, reality will catch up with you. I wish it weren't so. But reality is not controlled by our wishes, despite the claim by L. Ron Hubbard that reality is agreement.
16 months ago: I am neither naive, nor dishonest, but I am informed. I know very well about the old policy of Fair Game, there was such a policy, but that was not meant that some of people abuse it and do anything against the law. Anyone who does anything against the law has to face the justice.

That policy of Fair Game has actually caused harm, as when misinterpreted some people within the organization have committed crimes, and they had to face the justice.

But policy has been cancelled in 1968:
http://www.scientologymyths.info/fair-ga...

More about the "Fair Game":
http://www.scientologymyths.info/fair-ga...

I doubt largely that you have ever been a Sea Org member, because, otherwise you would exactly know that Scientology strictly forbids anything illegal, further, that the policy you mention as "ex-Scientologist with thorough knowledge", has been cancelled in 1968.

Sorry, what do we have today? 2011. How many years is that? Aha, just 43 years passed after the policy has been cancelled. And you, the omni-knowledge about the Scientology comes not in the 21st century to say that policy exists.

No, it does not exist.

Scientology organization uses many many policies, and the purpose of all of the policies is that people do right things.

Scientologists stick to the ethics principle and their purpose is to uphold ethics in the world. When there is a fellow Scientologist, doing something wrong, others help him either to come out, or he has to face justice and has to be expelled.

There is no place in Scientology for people which are not honest.

Bert1000
Bert1000
New York, NY
16 months ago: "There is no place in Scientology for people which are not honest."

And if you believe that, I have a bridge to sell you!

Q: What did LRH have his people tell Floridians when he wanted to purchase property in Clearwater to return from his exile at sea? A: That they were a group called "United Churches of Florida", a completely fictitious organization designed solely to decieve the officials.

Scientology officials have flat out lied about virtually every aspect of their organinzation, from disconnection to fair game.

Q: How can you tell when a Scientologist is lying? A: Their lips are moving.
skeptic
skeptic
Canada
16 months ago: You are really not paying attention, because I already explained this point in my previous comment. The policy on cancellation of fair game does not cancel fair game, it states that people will not be DECLARED to be fair game but they will still be TREATED as fair game, that is the policy, and that is what the cult does. There are innumerable instances of this. I have also read the policy letter instructing Scientologists not to break the law, but somehow the law still gets broken. Unfortunately, such things as the fair game law as well as L. Ron Hubbard's frequent instruction to Scientologists that they should be unreasonable, has resulted in lots of very destructive and often criminal acts.

The fair game policy SPECIFICALLY instructs Scientologists to lie, yet you tell me that there is no place in Scientology for people who are not honest. Think about that. There are situations in which L. Ron Hubbard wanted you to lie and he said so very clearly. So what really is the Scientology attitude about honesty? In the end, everything in Scientology is based on lies. It is a tissue of lies. Cultists lie to themselves first of all, and then they lie to everybody else, and then they claim that there is no place in Scientology for people who are not honest. You may not have figured it out yet, but you will eventually.
16 months ago: Fair Game has been cancelled in 1968, you can now repeat and repeat, does not make you look smart.
Bert1000
Bert1000
New York, NY
16 months ago: Below is the "cancellation" letter. It states that the term "Fair Game" is not to be used, however it leaves in place all the orignal Fair Game policies, including that SP's can be "...tricked, sued or lied to."

What must we conclude about a man that would create this policy in the first place?

HUBBARD COMMUNICATIONS OFFICE
Saint Hill Manor, East Grinstead, Sussex

HCO Policy Letter of 21 October 1968

CANCELLATION OF FAIR GAME


The practice of declaring people FAIR GAME will cease.

FAIR GAME may not appear on any Ethics Order. It causes bad public relations.

This P/L does not cancel any policy on the treatment or handling of an SP.


LRH:ci:cden L. RON HUBBARD
Copyright (c) 1968 Founder
by L. Ron Hubbard
ALL RIGHTS RESERVED

skeptic
skeptic
Canada
16 months ago: Thanks, Bert1000.
16 months ago: OK, than I will pay you US $10,000 if you can prove that it was not canceled. You have my website, my e-mail address and this public invitation to prove that it was not canceled and I hereby promise to pay US $10,000 provided you submit the evidence within 3 weeks.

Otherwise, I may call you fabricator.

Thank you.
Bert1000
Bert1000
New York, NY
16 months ago: I'll take a cashier's check please.....

http://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2010/11...

For the record, I don't expect you to actually honor your offer to pay. You will claim that the term "Fair Game" was not used, but it is undeniable (except maybe by a Scientologist) that many, many people were subject to the "Fair Game" policy from Paulette Cooper to Gabe Casares to Amy Scobee. Keep your money, you'll need it to defend yourself from Scientology once you decide to leave.
16 months ago: That is not an evidence, that is hear say, a baloney from a third party website. A website is not "Scientology" nor it is Scientology book, scripture, nor any Scientology video.

I do honor to pay, and I repeat here that I will pay US $10000, but evidence you have to provide by exactly referencing the Scientology scripture or book, where that policy appears. You don't need to scan the policy Fair Game, but you can simply reference it, as every Hubbard Communications Policy has its date and title.

And my offer is open to ANYONE. Don't waste my time with false reference, if you actually wish to get the money, find it.
Bert1000
Bert1000
New York, NY
16 months ago: I'll take a cashier's check please.....

http://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2010/11...

For the record, I don't expect you to actually honor your offer to pay. You will claim that the term "Fair Game" was not used, but it is undeniable (except maybe by a Scientologist) that many, many people were subject to the "Fair Game" policy from Paulette Cooper to Gabe Casares to Amy Scobee. Keep your money, you'll need it to defend yourself from Scientology once you decide to leave.
Bert1000
Bert1000
New York, NY
16 months ago: The irony is that I would be considered and "Enemy" per the original Fair Game policy, and therefore you (as a Scientologist) would be encouraged to lie to me.

Perhaps English isn't your first language, so I'm not exactly clear on what you will accept as evidence. But it is clear that Scientology intentially lies and commits illegal acts in an attempt to silence critics. Would you deny this? These activities are what I refer to as "Fair Game". Here is another gem...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtXUz07cY...

I like the part around 13 minutes where the Scientologists admit committing criminal acts. Sounds like Fair Game to me.
16 months ago: So, Bert1000 you think that you may get US $10000 just be placing YouTube links?

You said: "Fair Game" is a policy which is not canceled in 1968, and I said, I will pay US $10000 to you, if you prove that, so prove it, don't waste my time.

There are way too many crimes against Scientologist and organization of Scientology.

Freedom Magazine:
http://www.freedommag.org/
http://www.freedommag.org/special-report...

Anonymous Hate Group Member Sentenced for Attack on Scientology Websites
http://www.freedommag.org/freedom-news/a...

Trolls Go to Jail - 4chan's Five Top (Accused) Criminals
http://www.urlesque.com/2011/01/21/troll...

jandar
jandar
Cape Neddick, ME
16 months ago:
What the Scientology propaganda RAG Freedom Magazine publishes is a fine example of "Fair Game"

pay-up monkeyboy

Bert1000
Bert1000
New York, NY
16 months ago: No Louis, I already made clear that I do not want your money. And yes, I agree with you that the term "Fair Game" was ordered discontinued in 1968. What I have shown is that the intent, as directed from the "cancellation" policy, has continued with attacks (often illegal) against those that expose this cult.

For those not banned from Wikipedia, here is the classic Scientology Fair Game attack...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Freakout
16 months ago: Jandar, I did not hear any sound argument from your side. But I appreciate your invitation for the party line, only I don't have time nor any intention to discuss with empty arguments.

What does "fair game" term means, one may read here:
http://faq.scientology.org/page38b.htm

To actually read and understand it, one has to be at least moderately literate adult.

Quote from:
http://www.authenticscientology.org/page...

The term does not appear in the scriptures of Scientology and has not existed since 1968. In fact, its only use since then is not by the Church at all, but by a handful of anti-Scientology apostates and their attorneys who have exploited it in efforts to generate anti-Scientology prejudice in the media or courtroom.
The truth is that Church management never has and never would tolerate illegal or unethical actions to be committed in the Church's name. The scriptures of Scientology are replete with admonitions to its adherents to build their lives on foundations of honesty and integrity. The commission of dishonesties or harmful acts against another is the road to personal misery and destruction of positive interpersonal relationships.

jandar
jandar
Cape Neddick, ME
16 months ago: I already know what Fair game is.I don't need to go read a lie Published on your silly little Scientology site.

I haven't given up my critical thinking

I look at "entheta" boogie man, I am not controlled by the "thought stopping" that all Scientologist condition themselves to.

Yours like all Scientologist .is sadly is a one sided argument.

every time you post one of your silly links your engaging in "thought stopping"
really proves your unable and unwilling to think too deeply on any subject. whatever.
skeptic
skeptic
Canada
16 months ago: bert1000 has already proved to you that the fair game law is still in use by posting the relevant policy letter which (as I have previously told you) says quite clearly that people will no longer be DECLARED fair game but will still be TREATED as fair game. You really have to read this policy more carefully. As you say, "To actually read and understand it, one has to be at least (a) moderately literate adult." Are you a moderately literate adult? Why do you not understand this LRH policy? LRH would be disappointed in you were he still here. Too bad he died 25 years ago at the tender age of 74, having lived for slightly less than the average North American male life expectancy, despite his supposed OT abilities which failed to save him from a brain aneurysm.

Pay up!
16 months ago: Not at all, I am sorry, but all Scientologists are supposed to abide by the law, and to treat all people equally.

Scientologists also abide by the Code of Scientologist:
http://www.whatisscientology.org/html/Pa...

One of those is:

To decry and do all I can to abolish any and all abuses against life and mankind.

And other is:

To embrace the policy of equal justice for all.

And Scientologist stick to that. One other code is:
To work for freedom of speech in the world.

And that is the important one.

I am sorry, but your statements are wrong, as Fair Game has been canceled long time ago.
skeptic
skeptic
Canada
16 months ago: It's all in the interpretation, you know. Every Muslim extremist supports freedom of religion, if by freedom of religion you mean freedom to be a Muslim (although in some cases we would have to further limit that freedom to being either a Shiite or a Sunni Muslim, but not both). Naturally the Church of Scientology wishes to decry & abolish abuses against mankind, as long as Scientology executives are the ones who get to say what those abuses are. They embrace equal justice for all, as long as they are the only ones who get to rule on questions of what is just. They work for freedom of speech, meaning the freedom to quote L. Ron Hubbard and to study his various writings and recordings. The Church of Scientology is very strongly opposed to any form of speech that is critical of Scientology. It's actually more restrictive than that. You are expressing yourself freely in this discussion, but if you were inside an Org, you could not talk about Scientology (even favorably) without being guilty of the crime of "verbal data" unless you are quoting L. Ron Hubbard and stating the specific location of that quote. In the end, freedom of speech applies only to L. Ron Hubbard and to no one else. That's what the cult means by freedom of speech. And the Church of Scientology commits a great many abuses and injustices, but it simply declares these to be quite proper and just. So naturally they are in favor of justice for all. They still sell fraudulent services, do not deliver what they promise, and waste people's lives. But that is justice as they see it.

Scientologists are forbidden to use Scientology harmfully, yet a great many people have been harmed by Scientology. How can this happen? It's Orwellian doublespeak. You say one thing but you mean another.

And alas, you still do not understand the policy on Fair Game. Read it again. Read it until you undersand it.
16 months ago: That is simply not true and it is simply blatant lie. I was thinking you are kind of skeptic, but this has nothing with skepticism in common, you are ignorant of the fact that Scientologists are which endorse human rights: http://www.youthforhumanrights.org/

And one of basic human rights is the right to religion, or non-religion. One of basic codes for Scientologist is to support freedom of religion: http://www.whatisscientology.org/html/Pa...

So, I don't know how your post actually relates to Scientologists, as it is not based on any facts.

And I am sure that majority of new people interested in Scientology talk about the stuff they heard somewhere else, so what? Do you think people are expelled because they ask questions, or think different, I am sorry, you are ignorant.

As a Scientologist, I have not experienced anything what you have described there, and as a matter of fact, I have got much more delivered and gains and benefits through Scientology, then I have given in donations.
jandar
jandar
Cape Neddick, ME
16 months ago:
your Thought "stopping again" can't have thoughts that are "outside the box." oh no.

switch off the Old mind and go into alpha state and start bull-baiting or posting links

gotta run through those "obedience drills" Be up-stat or else

how about being less redundant and willfully ignorant for a change.
Frederick
Frederick
Canada
16 months ago: For JLouisBiz.

What is TR-L? If you have never heard of it please check it. How about "shore stories". There are "gradient truths". Another one was "acceptable truths". These are all terms I heard when I was involved with Scientology. Eventually, it occurred to me that if I was supposed to lie to other people,, whom we called raw meat and wogs, there was a good chance that I was being lied to as well, by the other people in the organization.

As you know, some people think that no matter what they say, they can never get through to someone with a fixed view. You may think that of me, and I definitely think that of you. I think you will rationalize anything negative about Scientology. You may think I am a suppressive or a potential trouble source.

Because of this I look for some proof that Scientology does what it says it can do. But in forty years of looking I haven't seen an OT phenomenon. I haven't met a clear with perfect memory. I can't understand why clears and OTs seem to have problems very similar to people who have no special Scientology training.

I read the definition of Fair Game that you have referred readers to. It is PR.
16 months ago: Frederick, I do know your opinion, but it sums up that you wish to degrade Scientology and Scientologist, and you wanna assume that all the technology for human improvement is wrong.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion.
skeptic
skeptic
Canada
16 months ago: I have observed that when people have believed enough lies, they become unable to believe the truth. That is what L. Ron Hubbard would call an inversion. Lies become truth, and truth becomes lies, in the inverted viewpoint of a highly deluded individual. That is why my accurate and honest statements appear to you to be blatant lies. And if you have never experienced any of the problems with Scientology that I have discussed, be patient. Sooner or later, you will discover the ugly side of the cult.

I am also going to reply to your comment to frederick. You claim that he wants to assume that the technology for human improvement is wrong. First of all, his criticism of Scientology (like my own) is not based on assumptions of any kind, it is based on detailed observation. Secondly, Scientology is in no way a technology for human improvement, it is a technology for deception. You can't see it because you have been deceived. If Scientology were the technology for human improvement that it claims to be, or even it produced a tenth of the human improvement that it claims to produce, I would enthusiastically support it. Alas, that is not the case.

Obviously you & I cannot work out our differences by means of this discussion. You are going to have to learn the hard way, as I have already done. It may take you years, even decades. At some point you will realize that you haven't gotten anywhere. This process must be run to its end phenomenon, no matter how much time and money it will cost you. Too bad.
16 months ago: Well, you speak to me, but you actually look like you are speaking about yourself. You see, some people cannot have personal gains, or case gain. There are various reasons for that. They cannot improve.

So, what is good or wrong for you, it is so, I don't mind.

Some people cannot even enjoy the sunshine, rain, beach, party, friends, or children. Why should I bother?

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