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Rant

Scientology requests website censorship

Posted 32 months ago|25 comments|598 views
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Written by
Mark Tomles
FPO, AE
The Scientology organization in Australia has filed a recommendation with the Australian Human Rights Commission’s Freedom of Religion and Belief in the 21st century project, arguing that “Websites created with the primary purpose of inciting religious vilification shall be removed or their access to the Australian public restricted” and that restrictions be placed on “Religious Misinformation and Misrepresentation known or reasonably known to be untruthful, in the Media”.

In addition, they have requested that "creators of Web sites whose primary purpose is the incitement of religious vilification shall be prevented from concealing their identity."

In its submission, the Church argues that these Web sites are not legitimate forums, but rather “have as their central purpose to act as a forum for Anonymous members whose sole goal is to ‘destroy’ our Church for what they consider to be the ‘good of mankind’ and for their ‘own enjoyment.’”

“We have identified that such websites play a major role in the ongoing hate campaign against our Church and their removal or a restriction of access and of content would play a major role in preventing further religious vilification against us,” the submission reads.

While the Church recognises the importance of freedom of speech in a democratic society, it does not believe that a “constant campaign of misinformation and misrepresentation of our beliefs in the media should be tolerated”.

“It is recommended that a law be enacted to prevent the dissemination of antireligious propaganda in the media, which is based on unfounded hearsay and either known or reasonably known to be untruthful,” the submission reads. “Such dissemination shall be the subject of a civil penalty provision in favour of the defamed Church, and/or its individual parishioners if they are individually named or otherwise identified.”

In other words, if they get their way, if you criticise any religion on the internet (or newspaper, or television), you may face lawsuits or penalties, and be forced to defend your opinion in court. Even if what you say is true, this measure would inevitably result in a huge increase in lawsuits, as critics are forced to justify each statement.

Specifically, of course, the filing targets websites critical to the organization, such as WhyWeProtest and similar sites.

This, of course, sets a very dangerous precident, and one that we've seen before. We've learned in high-school history class that there was a time when religous institutions used law to silence criticism, in effect making it illegal to criticise their activities in an open forum. In many areas, blasphemy was (and still is) a capital crime.

But what if this precedent is set? What about organizations that "raid" and protest groups? Or demonize groups, accusing them of horrible atrocities? Or perhaps encourage the destruction of a group that they consider to be harmful?

Then scientology websites shall be shut down, as well. While trying to focus perceptions on the alleged "crimes" against scientology, this same group is, at the same time, is engaged in a dedicated campaign against those of the mental health profession. They raid psychiatric conventions (see the youtube video), and their site (and occasional postings or speeches) accuse psychiatrists of the most horrible crimes in history, from the holocaust to murders and other crimes occuring today.

So if scientology wants critical sites shut down, they must halt their campaign against the mental health campaign, lest the pot call the kettle black.

It is ironic that scientology is now turning to Australia to "protect" themselves, after Hubbard himself called it a nation of thieves and criminals. But that leaves Australia with a considerable decision- where do they want their freedom of speech to end, and how much authority will they give scientology?
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bob dobbs
bob dobbs
Geneseo, NY
32 months ago: "While the Church recognises the importance of freedom of speech in a democratic society"

I've never seen any evidence of that, this rant http://www.rantrave.com/Rant/Psychiatrists-To-Blame-for-911-Attacks.aspx was posted earlier today then flagged for removal by someone for
some reason. Maybe the critics are'nt allowed to recycle their
posts like the Scientologist recycle their press releases? I can't
guarantee 100% without looking at the server logs that a Scientologist flagged it, but I'll bet they did. Maybe the author,
whoever it was, could ask a mod what grounds there was for removing it.

Mark Tomles
Mark Tomles
FPO, AE
32 months ago: Just to note- the items in quotes are not mine. I didn't make it very clear that some elements of this rant were quotes.
bob dobbs
bob dobbs
Geneseo, NY
32 months ago: The text I quoted sounded like codswallop that could only originate
from some Scientology communication, said codswallop being mirrored in full at http://www.hreoc.gov.au/frb/submissions/Sub1931.Church_of_Scientology.doc .
Mark Tomles
Mark Tomles
FPO, AE
32 months ago: lol- I figured as much, but wanted to make sure no one was confused :)
THE RONBOT HUNTER
THE RONBOT HUNTER
32 months ago: The cult is exposing its death throbs by trying to "quiet" the world. It knows that the internet is a free speech world.

It wants no man or woman to expose their crimes, frauds and scams. The policy letters that ex-scientologists bring out each year is hurting them and they want to go after them with their fair game tactics.

This IS NOT about religion because the cult is not a real religion, even if it did scare the IRS into giving them a break or their crimes would be exposed.

They threatened the IRS with exposing the fact that taxes are voluntary for non-federal subjects outside the federal zones. That you were being suppressed by the Feds and driven into poverty. But many people already know this.

There are too many reasons to allow them to stop/KILL freedom of speech.

THE RONBOT HUNTER
ALL RIGHTS RESERVED
Louanne
Louanne
Los Angeles, CA
32 months ago: You feel "censored" when you are not allowed to spit out hate and incite violence? That's quite telling.
bob dobbs
bob dobbs
Geneseo, NY
32 months ago: Wow, Louanne is still here, I thought she referred to rantnrave
as a cesspool. It's not like those nice americanchronicle and
pr-inside sites where you can post any propaganda without getting
flagged and there are no naughty comments sections where people
might indulge in free speech.

http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/smiths-alleged-scientology-school/comments?type=story&id=8331367

The Scientology Internet handlers are abusing the "mark as violation" button on that story to delete anything critical they don't like, quite ruthlessly I might add. The ABC site must be important to them for some reason for all that effort at handling.
It just goes to show that, given the chance, Scientology will try
to stop free speech whenever it can get away with it.
Mark Tomles
Mark Tomles
FPO, AE
32 months ago: Oh, yes, Louanne. I love spitting out hate and inciting violence. That's when I'm not polluting the environment and taunting the elderly.

Seriously, do you see the whole world that black and white? Are there no shades of gray for you? So what would you propose? What websites would you censor? And if you want to get rid of anonymous posters, why do you still post anonymously? You hide behind a picture of an eye and anonymous websites with a simple username... lead by example and practice what you preach. If you want to take away opponent's anonymity, give up your own first, lest you become a hypocrite.

Now what the CoS is proposing is censorship, very similar to that practiced in China. Almost exactly the same, in some regards. To paraphrase, while I might not agree with what you say, I will defend to the death your right to say it.

I would defend your right to call anonymous posters "a**holes", "Thugs", "terrorists", etc as much as I would defend people that peacefully protest. Heck- you don't see the Catholic or Christian Church trying to censor the internet for a whole country, do you? And they have far more than a half-dozen or so parishioners defending their faith online, compared to the, what, four or five names that post in defense of scientology? They have more critics, too, but they're not spending time and money lobbying governments to censor the internet for their citizens.
Mark Tomles
Mark Tomles
FPO, AE
32 months ago: Ooh, now I'm all frisky :)
I actually had a crush on the original Louanne, as an interesting bit of trivia. We used to talk a few years ago.

Anywho, back to the original point, This is a definition of censorship:

"Censorship is the suppression of speech or deletion of communicative material which may be considered objectionable, harmful, sensitive, or inconvenient to the government or media organizations as determined by a censor."

In this case, scientology wants to be the censor and determine what is and is not objectionable. Furthermore, if passed, this would mean that any criticism of any religious-type organization would cause one to be subject to lawsuits or other damages. In effect, this would leave Australia entirely to scientology- who has the time and money to fight such lawsuits? And I think we can all agree that the potential for abuse, if done as written, is immense.

Here's the irony. Scientology is always trying to have their name associated with the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights. However, the following snippets, taken from the Aussie gov website, are defined in the document as universal rights:

"Article 19. Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers."

"Everyone shall have the right to freedom of expression ..."

Scientology wants to take away these rights, which is defended by Louanne and the one or two other scientologists that defend it online.
32 months ago: Excellent post, Mark. Very well put together post that highlights the hypocrisy of the Church of Scientology. Claiming to be all about human rights, then out and out demanding an entire country be censored.

Freedom of speech and expression exists to protect that which is unpopular. Speech that is popular needs no protection. Speech that is critical, that is not with the voice of the majority, that is controversial, that is why it is in the United States Bill of Rights and why it is part of the UN Declaration of Human Rights.

As many have said, "I will argue to the death with what you say, but will defend to the death your right to say it." Too bad the Scientologists here don't share such noble opinions.
32 months ago: I believe your first paragraph or two are accurate and represent the reality. Anonymous has been in force for some while and had done a number of illegal actions. The groups effort is to embarass, destroy, defame, etc. It has attacked the Church of Scientology, public figures and others. Therefore, it would be sensible to prevent a website dedicated Anonymous doing its evil deeds.

But Mark Tomles, having this clear evidence and intent before him, then overgeneralizes. He attempts to make a 1984, Big Brother is Watching You -- situation out of something far removed from free speech and individual, posted opinion.

The Hidden reasoning Mark uses is as follows.
Anonymous has caused disruption and harm, now the Church of Scientology is attempting to get legal relief. Therefore the Church is suppressing free speech.

Reminds me of someone screaming in your face until you breath on them, where upon, they fall to the ground and writhe in agony, as you had struck them.
Mark Tomles
Mark Tomles
FPO, AE
32 months ago: No, this is not accurate.

Zoom in a little bit to some of my specific points and try to discuss them- you're still at the 10,000 ft view on this one.

We're not talking about legal relief, we're talking about trying to decide for an entire population of 21 Million people what they're allowed to do and see on the internet.

If a crime is committed, by all means deal with it. But I have yet to see a crime against scientology in australia directly linked to the websites that they would like to censor. It's very clear- they are not trying to address CRIMES, but criticism and POTENTIAL crimes, as defined by them alone. That's straight out of 1984- it's called thoughtcrime.

That's the difference between the two groups- what is criticism... you call attack.
Mark Tomles
Mark Tomles
FPO, AE
32 months ago: "Anonymous has caused disruption and harm, now the Church of Scientology is attempting to get legal relief."

First- can you prove disruption and harm? I thought the CoS was growing at a rapid pace? What, then, is the harm?

And there's a subtle difference... they're not seeking legal relief. They're seeking to CHANGE THE LAW.
32 months ago: TerryEO continues to lie, as is mandated by L Ron Hubbard's policies. Those same policies also require the commission of illegal acts by members of the Church of Scientology.
Child labor, human trafficking, torture, violation of civil rights, tax fraud, blackmail, extortion. These are all crimes your organization has committed. Individuals within your organization have done far worse, including assaulting fellow members, forcibly imprisoning them, and denying them proper medical care.

Every single thing you say about Anonymous, is doubly or triply true for your own organization. Every single crime you accuse us of, you are guilty of in ways that far exceed the accusations.

Anonymous has no such policies, and requires nothing of individuals wishing to associate with it. Anonymous as an organization has broken no laws. There are indeed individuals who associate with Anonymous that are guilty of illegal actions, just as there are police officers who've committed crimes but that doesn't mean all cops are bad. Sadly, your own organization has far more than a few bad apples, it is entirely rotten to the core.
32 months ago: "The groups effort is to embarass, destroy, defame, etc. It has attacked the Church of Scientology, public figures and others. Therefore, it would be sensible to prevent a website dedicated Anonymous doing its evil deeds."

Yet not a single one of those things is as a whole illegal. You see it as evil merely as perspective, evil is not a legal term. Some people think it is evil to allow women to wear pants, or show their elbows, should we start banning women from being free to make their own choices about clothes?

Your hypocrisy continues to grow, Terry. All that you care about is your own organization, masking it with false sympathies for others. The Church of Scientology has done no good for others that is not defined as being purely for the benefit of itself. The greatest good I have yet to see offered up as proof of the charity of the Church is "we've delivered Scientology to millions of people", which is circular logic to the extreme.

"Reminds me of someone screaming in your face until you breath on them, where upon, they fall to the ground and writhe in agony, as you had struck them."
An almost perfect description of the methods used by Scientology handlers when confronting critics. Video evidence of critics being yelled at, accused of crimes, and generally goaded on is everywhere on the Internet. That's hard, physical evidence. Those videos then go on to show that even the slightest response is usually played out as a major assault upon the Scientologist, when in truth they are the ones who are shoving, grabbing, and attacking off camera, and sometimes on camera.

By the way, Terry, your San Diego Ideal Org is crumbling. Pictures recently taken, compared with the original look of the property when it was purchased shows a significant state of disrepair and degradation. Also, your North Carolina Org closed down completely. So much for your claims of growth and improvement, seems its all more lies to pacify the flock.
32 months ago: Anonymous Voice, you ignore the obvious, which I have stated in my previous post. So here, I'll state the plain.

Our internet is free in the sense that anyone can cheaply publish. Now, compare this freedom the earlier situation. Where there was no internet, but anyone with a spray can of paint could publish anywhere they wished. What happened?

What happened is that people abused their freedom. When you have the right and the opportunity to publish "**** YOU" on every building and bathroom wall, and you demonstrate your freedom with a can of spray paint, what happens?

People don't care for it. People begin to stop you from your freedom. And the same thing will happen on the internet. If you follow the intent, here. If you don't take my communication literally and apply it only toward two word utterances. If you get the idea, you have freedom as long as you do not step on the other person's freedom.

Because when you step on the other person's freedom long enough and hard enough, the other person (meaning a sizable majority of people) will step on you. And this is why we have prisons. We stop people who prevent us from living normal lives.

But your choices are yours, even when you state lies as if they were true.
Mark Tomles
Mark Tomles
FPO, AE
32 months ago: flawed analogy- not reality.

"tagging" (vandalism) is a crime. Protesting is not. Would you have broekn up the civil rights protesters in the '60's? The vietnam protestors? probably not... scientology only cares once it affects them.

But if you frame your analogy accurately, it's far less defensible. But how do you think the 20Million Aussies would feel about having their rights stripped away?
Frederick
Frederick
Canada
32 months ago: The purpose of Scientology’s proposal seems to be to scare people like me into silence. It would be hard to make any statements knowing that some small part of it might be inaccurate and could initiate a lawsuit. It would also be frightening even if all the statements were completely accurate because the cost of lawyers could be beyond a critic’s means.

Scientology knows this.

Governments know it too. I don't think many would go along with the Scientology proposal knowing its effects on free speech. But, we will see.

Here in Canada, the Catholic church has changed its ways over the past decade or two. People protested that priests were sexually assaulting their young parishioners and things changed. Can you imagine how much longer that change would have taken if such a law were enacted in Canada?


Scientology doesn’t work unless people like me are “shuddered into silence”. Hubbard knew that. The leaders today know it too. By “doesn’t work” I mean doesn’t work at taking it’s members for all the money it can get. It will never work at achieving Hubbard’s claims, no matter what.
32 months ago: "Now, compare this freedom the earlier situation. Where there was no internet, but anyone with a spray can of paint could publish anywhere they wished. What happened? "
Bad analogy is bad. Your poor understanding is being demonstrated, Terry.

Freedom of speech is not being able to speak what people like, or what people approve of. No, freedom is being able to do that which others DO NOT like, that which others DO NOT approve of. Am I free if I can only say what people want me to say? No, I'm slave to society.

Your very attempts at defining freedom fall on the exact opposite end of the spectrum, defining instead dictatorship and tyranny, where only approved speech is permitted. You do not have the right to not be offended. Maybe you should go apply that Study Tech on some books about US Constitutional law, namely on freedom of speech.

Get back to me when you've educated yourself, because clearly you have the understanding of a layman, not an expert.
Frederick
Frederick
Canada
32 months ago: Canada has hate laws. To break them, two things must be proven in a court of law. 1) That the offender doesn't believe what he or she is saying and 2) That someone has been hurt by the statements.

So in Canada, if I was actually being paid by the drug companies to denouce Scientology while deep inside knowing that the Scientologists were saving mankind, half the equation would be there. Then, we have to show that I have hurt Scientology in a meaningful and measureable way.

Both these things are very hard to prove. I think our laws are a good compromise between freedom of speech and defending the libelling or slandering of a group.

Good luck with Australia, Scientology, but don't come knocking on the door of the true north strong and free. We don't pay attention to nonsense like that.
bob dobbs
bob dobbs
Geneseo, NY
32 months ago: What happened to the reverse psychology about Anonymous being
responsible for the "huge expansion" of Scientology, that's
not in vogue this week? By the way, it's very naughty to use
the psych's evil technology like that.

I don't have too much fear for the Commonwealth countries, people there have the same love of free speech, from what I've seen, that we have in America. Unfortunately for Scientology and Terryeo those countries don't seem like they'll morph into Iran or North
Korea anytime soon. Back in the spring Terryeo was saying that Anonymous will be responsible for free-speech being limited on the Internet, but who is asking for it specifically besides Scientology? Noone, from what I see.
Louanne
Louanne
Los Angeles, CA
32 months ago: This whole thing lives from (intentional) misinterpretation. Freedom of Speech is one of the most important goods in any free society. However it ends when it is abused to restrict other freedoms. There is no Freedom of Speech in spreading hate and inciting violence. That's just outright criminal. The Australian proposal the Church put together is not pushing for laws, nor for censorship. It takes a good portion of fantasy to (mis)interpret it that way. To the contrary the proposal argues for Freedom of Speech by restricting those who abuse it and try to make it impossible for others to have those rights. Did you read it, Mark?
Mark Tomles
Mark Tomles
FPO, AE
32 months ago: Louanne, I've read it and I hear you, but I have to disagree.

Look at, for instance, the scientology-owned (or scientoloGIST-owned) websites that say very biting things about psychiatry. Look at the CCHR website. On that ONE website alone, I find 31 references to "protest". 69 references to "murder". The list goes on. The front page calls psychiatry an "industry of death"!

Do you see that parallel? Scientology wants to enjoy its own free speech while restricting others. Also, your argument depends on the concept of critical sites "spreading hate and inciting violence". Can that be proven? Can it be proven in a way that does not also apply to CCHR? CCHR encourages protests, for example.

I do not see how critical sites are restricting anyones rights. Who's forcing scientologists to visit them? Who's to say that it's not okay for "anons" to hold a legal protest (as we enjoy in America, the right to peacefully assemble), but it is okay for scientology to protest a psychiatric convention?

And again, the irony is that if this measure were to pass, Australians would no longer be able to post anonymously, like you yourself do. You would want them to do something that you would not do yourself.
Mark Tomles
Mark Tomles
FPO, AE
32 months ago: Perhaps you're on to something, and I encourage freedoms of speech :)

Can you please show me which critical websites are abusing free speech, spreading hate, inciting violence and restricting the freedoms of others?
bob dobbs
bob dobbs
Geneseo, NY
32 months ago:
"Because when you step on the other person's freedom long enough and hard enough, the other person (meaning a sizable majority of people) will step on you. And this is why we have prisons. We stop people who prevent us from living normal lives."

Nice violent allegory Terryeo, Miscavige would be proud. But if
you and Scientology learned to practice what you preach then Scientology would have far fewer enemies and critics. Scientology
and it's actions are solely responsible for all the entheta.

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