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Proposed French Law Criminalizes Islamic Veils on Women

Posted 22 months ago|16 comments|1,126 views
Does a Burqa Ban Foster Equality?
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France is trying to pass a law that will criminalize Islamic veils worn by women. The news of this proposed law is ludicrous. The Islamic veil, called a burqa, is at the center of all this attention. The burqa is the long veil worn by Muslim women in public and covers everything but the eyes. The Quran suggests that both men and women dress conservatively, but it doesn't require the veil. They are mostly worn by conservative Muslims. I understand that covering the woman's body is one point of the burqa veil. How is making it illegal to wear an Islamic veil in public and fining and imprisoning people going to reach equality? That's just crazy. You can't tell me that making it illegal to wear a Muslim veil is not based on discrimination and fear.

French lawmakers claim this proposed ban on Islamic veils are in the woman's interest. How so? They will fine her if she wears it and fine or imprison the man if he makes her wear it. This French step to equality doesn't seem right. If it is really about punishing the man making the woman wear the burqa then there should never be a fine imposed on the woman. This shows yet another inherent misunderstanding of oppression. But, that's not the only problem with the proposed French law to criminalize veils. Islamic veils are a religious symbol. How many other religions must stop wearing veils because of this proposed French law? Is that taken into account? When Spain outlawed burqas they had to amend the law because some Christian group of thousands wore veils every year at Easter. Oops, let us not hurt the Christians!

Reading about this, I don't understand Americans proclaiming that if Muslims or any other people want to come to this country then they need to abide by our rules or go home. Are you serious? Yes, regardless of the country a person is in they need to abide by the law. It always bothers me that the shoe only fits here, in the United States. This burqa ban is happening in France, but comments on the internet are telling people to "go back to their country" even when the person being oppressed is actually a native. One Muslim woman interviewed about the proposed Islamic veil ban said she wears it by choice…and she was born in France. Where should she go? By the way Americans, the majority of us are descendants of someone who came here for a better opportunity. So many forget.

To those who think banning the burqa is a great idea, think about this: how would you feel if your country decided to ban the cross? You can no longer wear a necklace with a cross on it because it is offensive, threatening, and because, really, we are afraid. I think it comes down to fear of Muslims and discrimination. It is wrong. When I hear about something like this it makes me appreciate the U.S. and my ability to be agnostic and voice my opinion. While I am not for shoving religion down anyone's throat, I am also not for taking away their symbolism, especially when it does not harm anyone. A Muslim veil does not hurt me. The lack of equality does. If we took a hard look at Christianity, I bet we could come up with some things that signify the male domination in it, but there's no way it would come to a proposal of criminalizing wear. Well, then again, I think if it was something that a woman wore it just might get there.
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COMMENTS
THE RONBOT HUNTER
THE RONBOT HUNTER
22 months ago: Racism is totally crazy today.

Now we hate articles of clothing that others wear.

We graduated from skin, hair, looks, nationality, race, religion, built, etc. to clothing.

We are all nuts.

Why do we hate and hate and hate.

The only justifiable hate is against someone that has directly harmed you -- for example the criminal that just killed your mother.

But again if an invader nation enters your country, hate and death are justified to impulse the dirty rats.

Again if a group controls and starts the wars that kill your people, then I would hate them too.

If they are the money changers that from before Jesus, were the cause of all our problems then I would hate them too.

A real justification has to be there to justify hate.

I would not hate a lady that wants to wear a piece of cloth around her face as my enemy.

A corrupt politician is more my enemy than this lady in a foreign land.

WHAT IS YOUR JUSTIFICATION FOR YOUR HATE OF OTHERS??

I tell it like it is, I pull no punches, tell no lies, and I am as I am

THE ONE AND ONLY RONBOT HUNTER
ALL RIGHTS RESERVED

markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
22 months ago: The proposed law is no more than ludicrous than the religious insanity that treats women as chattel. By the way Alex, are you aware of the woman in Iran who is facing the death penalty by stoning? She was already subjected to 99 lashes.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jul...

I hope this isn't a proverbial case of you straining at a gnat while swallowing the camel.
22 months ago: Markbyrn - Thanks for the article link. There are many laws I don't understand and have a hard time comprehending. I don't believe in people as property regardless of gender. I happened to catch the burqa story on the news a few nights ago and it bothered me, especially when I found out it was already law in other countries, such as Spain where I had spent several months living.

Anytime we dress up something as gender equality while continuing to punish women, it bothers me. Sure, perhaps it is not as big of an issue as this women being stoned (the mock stoning they do, my gosh!). But, in a way it is a big issue. Of course, I live in the US and it doesn't apply here, but I still think it's wrong. The stoning and all this makes me think about when it's appropriate for us to intervene and I just don't know.

@Ron - Hey, I actually agree w/a lot of what you said! Racism is out of control yet there are people who think we have now reached complete equality. No way. I agree that looking at what's under the hate is important.
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
22 months ago: If the burqa was a benign form of religious dress instead of a symbol of barbaric repression of women as I alluded to in my previous post, I'd be more favorable to criticizing France. I'll grant you that France has duplicitous attitude when it comes to women in veils vis-Ă -vis Christianity but if one compares freedom in France vice freedom in any given Islamic state especially in regards to women, it's not even close and again, are you straining at a gnat while swallowing the camel?

lynnigus
lynnigus
22 months ago: France has been trying to do this kind of crap for years claiming it is in the "best interest" of the women. Many years ago they made an effort to prevent girls from attending school who were choosing to wear the traditional clothes that are required by their religion. No country has a right to tell people what they can and can't wear. It's like putting a dress code on the entire country. The premise behind this is just so ludicrus. Something needs to be done about France.
22 months ago: So you think that Muslim countries that require women (all women, not even Muslims or citizens) must wear "the viel" are above the same criticism you are levying against France?

Only France is wrong to try and level the field between men and women when it comes to dress, all other countries are right to mandate a dress code, that's what you are saying.
22 months ago: Kamal Saleem: A Muslim Cries Out to Jesus
He heard a voice call his name and saw a vision of Christ. This was miraculous, because up until then, Kamal was a Muslim.

http://www.cbn.com/media/player/index.as...

Her strict Islamic religion left her abused and a prisoner in her own marriage. A vision of Christ set her free.

http://www.cbn.com/media/player/index.as...
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
22 months ago: Interesting segue Ed - a Pat Robertson Christian Propaganda Network tale of how a religious zealot got converted from one intolerant religion to another intolerant religion. It's too bad this Kamal Saleem didn't read the material in the following link - maybe she would have been converted to rationalism.

http://www.evilbible.com/Murder.htm
22 months ago: Muslim men can wear whatever they wish, Muslim women are forced to wear clothing that covers their entire bodies. Voluntary? Yeah, right, just like female circumcision in many Muslim societies is. Refuse to wear the veil and get stoned to death.

But this is their religions requirements right? Sure it is, that's why female Christian, Jews, Buddhist and others in these countries are required by law to wear the same dress as Muslims or face prison, deportation and even stoning.

Look at it this way, if they can pass a law requiring all females to wear clothes so only their eyes can be seen, than other countries can pass laws to allow them to NOT cover all their skin.
lynnigus
lynnigus
22 months ago: Everything is a choice. Those men and women choose to be apart of that religion. Now, granted, in countries where the Muslim religion is the norm it is hard to see it as a choice. In France, however, those women do have a choice and if they choose to continue to follow the constraints of their religion no one should be allowed to stop them. What France is doing is not ok, regardless of how anybody feels about burqas.

Imagine if our own government mandated a dress code, stripping us of choice and freedom.

No country has a right to tell people what they can wear or what religion they can practice. We may not agree with them, but it is not our place to impose our beliefs upon others. Believe it or not, not everything about the U.S. is right or good or perfect. We are certainly NOT a country that leads by good example.
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THE RONBOT HUNTER
THE RONBOT HUNTER
22 months ago:
lynnigus

Even though I agree, placing an reply more than once is enough--right?

I tell it like it is, I pull no punches, tell no lies, and I am as I am

THE ONE AND ONLY RONBOT HUNTER
ALL RIGHTS RESERVED
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
22 months ago: lynnigus,

...In France, however, those women do have a choice...

Really, and how did you arrive at this fantastical assumption? It's a fact that religious cults of all stripes are not above involuntarily compeling compliance through any means necessary, to include threats of violence or outright violence. And when I say religious cults, I'm not excluding any religious variant including those associated with Islam, Christianity, Judaism, etc.

I'm not sure what social-political ideology you're marching to but you're exhibiting one of the classic symptoms of ideological tunnel vision - that being selective indignation. Six asked you pointedly, "So you think that Muslim countries that require women (all women, not even Muslims or citizens) must wear "the viel" are above the same criticism you are levying against France?" and your almost apologetic response is:

"Now, granted, in countries where the Muslim religion is the norm it is hard to see it as a choice."

Hardline Islamic countries impose barbaric physical punishments and capital punishment in the form of stoning for violating purely religious laws and all you can say it's hard to see it as a choice while lambasting France for making an ordinance to ban the concealment of one's face while in public. Your selective indignation is appalling and while France may have crossed the line with respect to pure religious freedom, I'll offer this thought in their defense.

In the Muslim countries where you inexplicably said it's hard to see it a choice, religious based dress codes are enforced by both the state and/or religious authorities. As such, France is obviating any potential familial or religious coercion by drafting a law against it. Ergo, if hardline Islamic countries and the religion itself made the dress code as an optional choice, they wouldn't need the law to counter the potential coercion.
lynnigus
lynnigus
22 months ago: @ all: i apologize for the multiple post. my internet had a panic attack which resulted in additional postings. sorry.

@markbyrn: you are welcome to interpret what I say anyway you wish. That's your choice. As for what six asked me, he followed up by saying that I'm claiming that "only France is wrong to try and level the field between men and women," which isn't what I'm saying at all. The point I'm trying to make is that regardless of how we may feel about a stituation or a religion or a country, it's not up to us.

We can disagree all we want but that's not going to do anything. France can impose that law, but do you really think it's going to stop women from wearing those clothes? The US can go to war with Iraq, but do you think that country is going to follow our rules?

It's all about choice. We can propose all the laws we want, start all the wars we want, but in the end people are still going to do what they want. We don't have to like it, but short of physically forcing those woment to stop wearing the viels, there isn't a damn thing we can do about it. And that's the reality that all countries who are trying to impose their "superiority" on others need to see.

Whether it's France or the US, the fact of the matter is they can't be in control when each person dictates their own life through choice. We've seen it happen before and we'll see it happen again, especailly when it comes to religion. You can impose all the laws you want, but those women will still make the final choice on their own.
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
22 months ago: Perhaps you're on the same sheet of sheet of double standard music as the current Turkish Prime Minister perhaps?

'Will Turkey Condemn Stoning of "Adulterous" Woman in Iran?

In Iran, a woman is going to be stoned for alleged adultery. In Turkey, a columnist wonders how Prime Minister Erdogan, who never hesitates to condemn alleged Jewish and Western conspiracies, has failed to intercede with his good friend Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, who has the power to pardon the condemned.'

http://tinyurl.com/2b5flxc

As for women having a choice, when it comes to fundamentalist religions/cults and gender equality, you might as well be mixing oil and water. Also, while you're condemning France for daring to curtail a clothing article used for religious suppression, can you spare a bit of wrath towards the medieval religious barbarians that are currently running Iran?
22 months ago: No one has the God given right to keep another human in bondage, any country that dominate and suppress another person is insecure and will not prevail.

This subject is not about a dress code, but it is a look inside evil and false domineering of the opposite human partner, its like enslaving another it will not last and those that do will be judged by the supreme Judge Himself.

French lawmakers claim this proposed ban on Islamic veils are in the woman's interest. If it is really about punishing the man making the woman wear the burqa then there should never be a fine imposed on the woman.

I like the Australian law, if some one immigrate to a country then they should adopt that countries laws and customs if not stay home or you have the right to get out.

Sikhs come to Canada and want to ride a motorcycle and say that their turban can't be worn with a helmet, well then a license should not be granted.
22 months ago: What about banning them on men?

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