News & Politics

Rant

Problems with Arizona's New Birther Bill

Posted 13 months ago|16 comments|383 views
Written by
Coloranter Raver
Denver, CO
The Arizona Congress just passed their new so-called "birther" bill which will require all future presidential candidates to prove citizenship before appearing on the AZ ballot over to the Governor to sign or veto. If Governor Jan Brewer signs the law, it will be the first law in the nation that attempts to enforce the "natural born citizenship" provision of the Constitution. Of course, no one in the Arizona state house is suggesting this has anything to do with the so-called "birther" conspiracy theory that President Obama was not born in the United States, faked his official records in Hawai'i, had Time Travel Agents go back and plant birth announcements in the newspaper, and plant false memories of his childhood in the mind of the current governor who claims to have known Barack Obama when he was a child.

Unfortunately, there are some problems as revealed by the current secretary of state of Arizona in this interview.

First, the bill gives any Arizonan the right to sue if he or she believes the Secretary of State has ruled in error on the fulfillment of the Arizona requirements.

Second, the bill will never withstand Supreme Court appeals at present because the Supreme Court will have a difficult time upholding the law without ruling on what constitutes a natural-born citizen of the United States. The debate will wage on and attempts to understand and get at the intentions of the authors of the Constitution who created the provision with an automatic exclusion to account for the fact that it would take a while for natural-born citizens to grow up to hold the office in the new nation. George Washington wasn't a natural born citizen, for example.

It is interesting, however, to listen to the Secretary of State rule on President Obama's document stating that more important than the document would be the accompanying documents from the issuing party certifying the authenticity of the document.

This will certainly be interesting, but it is difficult to see how this is not directed at the current President. The good thing will be, however, that passing the Arizona litmus test, which is apparently more stringent than that of the US Department of State, might finally put the birther issue to rest.
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Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
13 months ago: I'm wondering what the odds are that two people who lived in Hawaii, one in relative obscurity, born to obscure parents, knew each other, and one went on to be Governor of Hawaii, and the other grew up to be President.

So Democrat Governor Abercrombie says he knew the President when he was a lad. Does that mean he was born in Hawaii? Was the good Governor there at the birth? Obama's grandmother in Kenya said she was present at his birth in Kenya. The Kenyan ambassador said Obama was born in Kenya.

No, I'm not a birther. I'm not a birther-buster either. They are both equally ridiculous.
Coloranter Raver
Coloranter Raver
Denver, CO
13 months ago: Actually, Neil Abercrombie, current governor of Hawai'i claims to have known Barack Obama's parents when they were in university together. (source)

Was Obama's childhood any more obscure than any other's?

Repeating things that have been disproved over and over does not suddenly make them now true. Sarah Obama never said that Barack was born in Kenya. This was a miscommunication widely misreported that has been refuted time and time and time again.

Your not a birther nor a birther-buster, both are ridiculuous, yet, you spread the misinformation of the birthers and level charges of lying against the governor of Hawai'i? Which is it?
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
13 months ago: It's neither. I didn't accuse anyone of lying, you assumed that because that's where your mind took you. I simply mused upon the odds of that particular scenario.

Truth is, you don't have any more proof that Obama was born in Hawaii than any birther has that he wasn't. The original birth certificate has not been produced, and everything else is anecdotal. Documents can be faked, and records can be changed. Before Obama was a household name, no one would have any reason to investigate.

It really is a moot point. Unless his mother had denounced her citizenship, and I have never read anywhere that she had done that, it wouldn't matter if Obama had been born on Nabiru (which is a another possibility). Under the current interpretation of citizenship requirements, anyone, born anywhere, to a citizen of the United States, provided the mother was legally married, is also a citizen.
Coloranter Raver
Coloranter Raver
Denver, CO
13 months ago: The irony is, of course, you are right. Donald Trump cannot actually even be sure he was born in the US. How does he know that his rich parents didn't bribe hospitals etc. to produce records because they were so embarrased he was born in France? None of us probably knows for sure where we were born, we only have the information we were told by those we trusted and the documents given to us upon request by the state. I requested my birth certificate from the State of Colorado, and I received a paper that looked like 2nd grader could do a better job on a home computer.

So, you are right, I don't have any proof of his citizenship.

Which boils down to the more important question, why are people so hot on this topic. Vice President Cheney changed his legal residency to Wyoming days before Bush announced him as his running mate because the Constitution forbids the President and Vice President from being legal residents of the same state. Nobody really cared too much. Why do people care so much if Obama was or wasn't born in Hawai'i? Why if he wasn't, has no one been able to prove he wasn't? Aren't you innocent until proven guilty?

The only reason I can think of, and this partly because this whole thing was boiling before he took a step into the Oval Office, is they didn't want him to ever get the shot at being President. But why? It cannot be because he was just too liberal or conservative for them, no body made up such nonsense about Clinton or Bush.

No, there has to be a deeper reason. i am curious what that reason was.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
13 months ago: You almost got me there. I was about to launch into a tirade about people who always want to play the race card. But then I caught myself.

How about this: we were attacked by Muslim terrorists. We were at war with two Muslim countries, and on bad terms with a couple more. Barack Obama has a Muslim sounding name, was the son of a devout Muslim, was raised and educated most of his childhood in Muslim countries. He went on record stating he was ashamed of America.

If he wasn't born in Hawaii, all that would prove is that he's a liar. That goes hand in hand with the word politician.

It's not really any different to use whatever tactics are available to defeat your opponent in the eyes of the public. Dan Rather lost his job over doing the same thing.
Coloranter Raver
Coloranter Raver
Denver, CO
13 months ago: I would have liked to read the race tirade, but how is it any different that people's Isalmaphobic stuff – not implying that your answer is or that you were because I think you are right that these things might have affected some people. It does bait the whole double-standard we have in America right now when it comes to Islam and muslims since Christian terrorists have never been called that by our media and we've never really before used the religion of a nation as a reason to fear it. We were attacked by the Shinto nation of Japan, but did not immediately blame Shinto extremists and fear all things Shinto. No, this Islam-fear has been carefully orchestrated to justify the outrageous defense budget. Only, it's far more ingenious than any other fear, like the fear of the communists because they were contained in certain fringe countries, whereas the muslims are everywhere.

So, what does it say about us as a melting pot nation of the children of immigrants when, if what you say is true, people are willing and able to go to such xenophobic lengths to denounce a person as qualified to be our president based on all of the things you mention. Nothing good if you ask me, especially the "muslim sounding name" part.
Coloranter Raver
Coloranter Raver
Denver, CO
13 months ago: I am curious about your statement, "...was raised and educate most of his childhood in Muslim countries."

From ages 6-10 he attended school in Indonesia when his new stepfather, an Indonesian was recalled. There he attended public school and a private Catholic school. He returned to Hawai'i to attend the largest independent school in the United States, the Punahou School in Honolulu (check out their website, it's a pretty amazing place) for 5th through 12th grade. I would not say four years was most of his childhood and it was only one muslim country not two or many.

You see this is the kind of blanket misinformation that's been put up out there in the world on the Internet that simply isn't true, but if people repeat it enough, and read it enough, then they just begin to believe it. It no longer matters what is true or isn't.
Coloranter Raver
Coloranter Raver
Denver, CO
13 months ago: Could you refresh my memory as to when or where Obama said he was "ashamed of America" so I can review the context and ascertain the veracity of this assertion.

Are there ever times in your life when you might have said you were embarrassed to be an American? How about sitting across the table in a Chinese restaurant in Hong Kong and having an snob from Boston yell at the waitress because her English was so poor and going on and on about how if she ever wanted to make it in life, she needed to "speaka de English" in some sort of crazy Italian accent. I was pretty embarrassed to be an American that day. I don't know when or why or even if the President said what you said, but since it seems fresh in your mind, maybe you can source it for me.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
13 months ago: No, I can't say I've ever an experience where I could say I was embarrassed or ashamed to be an American. Other people are who they are, I'm not going to include the whole country in my categorizations. While that guy was castigating the Chinese lady, millions upon millions of Americans were not. At the very moment you are speaking of, I was hundreds of miles away, doing nothing of the sort. I was still being proud to be an American, in honor of all the honest, hard working, sympathetic Americans that I think far outnumber the ones like you have described.

Give me a minute, I'll get you a list of sources.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
13 months ago: OBAMA "You know, it's embarrassing, it's embarrassing when -- when, uh, Europeans come over here, they all speak English, they speak French, they speak German. And then we go over to Europe, and all we can say is, "Merci beaucoup."

That's a start.
Coloranter Raver
Coloranter Raver
Denver, CO
13 months ago: It is embarrassing that not only are most of us barely fluent in our own language, but that we do not value the learning of other languages to the degree of other nations. We've gone too long operating on this "we don't need to learn any other languages because English is the world's language". The French used to think this too when French was the world's language. I don't think we are in any danger of another language emerging especially since the vast majority of the Chinese people are required to learn English these days. Even so, it is not our finest moment that we are so anti-languages. There is much to be learned about one's own language from other languages, and after studying Chinese for six months, I became convinced it made my mind work differently, and I was able to see things I never saw or understood before. Recent studies in the UK have found that different parts of the brain are active when people are speaking and thinking in Chinese than in English – so that stands to reason.

In any case, your Obama comment does not have him saying he was or is embarrassed to be an American. He say it's embarrassing when so many of the citizens of other nations are more well versed in our language than we are in theirs.
Right? So, I don't think I can award you a point for this one.

I also don't really buy the notion that context isn't as important or more important. If you were to suggest I was embarrassed, in general, to be an American because I said I was embarrassed to be an American in the previously describe scenario, that would be patently false. If you've never been in a situation like the one I was in, you cannot know how you would feel.
sunny2
sunny2
13 months ago: Some how it doesn't matter where he was born or who thinks what, everything points to the President having a mindset of someone who only sees poverty and struggle as normal. Third World concepts Just might be in the blood. He is more of an elitist for the rich and famous.
Box. While I was in Paris, as long as I tried to speak French everyone was friendly and helpful. My daughter on the other hand speaks French and Spanish. Sunny
Coloranter Raver
Coloranter Raver
Denver, CO
13 months ago: Could you clarify your comment, "...having a mindset of someone who only sees poverty and struggle as normal."
Coloranter Raver
Coloranter Raver
Denver, CO
13 months ago: Here's an interesting video I found on the matter of the birthers.

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/politics/2011/04/14/explain.it.to.me.birthers.cnn?hpt=C2
13 months ago: Maybe we all need to learn Spanish....
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
13 months ago: Obama says we all need to learn Spanish, and not to worry that the Spanish speaking people don't speak English.

http://www.wikio.com/video/barack-obama-...

Incidentally, Obama does not speak Spanish. In fact, he does claim to speak any foreign language. "I don't speak a foreign language. It's embarrassing!" he exclaimed at a town hall meeting. Makes me wonder how he got through four years of school in Indonesia. Oh yeah, he must have forgotten he speaks Bahasa.

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