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Priest Tells Congregation to Shoplift

Posted 25 months ago|23 comments|738 views
Written by
Rudi Stettner
 Moderator
An Anglican priest in York, England has advised his poor congregants to get through hard times by shoplifting, distinguishing it morally from violent robbery, prostitution and burglary. The Daily Mail reported as follows on the stunning sermon by the Reverend Tim Jones.


'My advice, as a Christian priest, is to shoplift,' he told his stunned congregation at St Lawrence and St Hilda in York.

'I do not offer such advice because I think that stealing is a good thing, or because I think it is harmless, for it is neither.

'I would ask that they do not steal from small family businesses, but from large national businesses, knowing that the costs are ultimately passed on to the rest of us in the form of higher prices.

'I would ask them not to take any more than they need. I offer the advice with a heavy heart. Let my words not be misrepresented as a simplistic call for people to shoplift.

'The observation that shoplifting is the best option that some people are left with is a grim indictment of who we are."







Is this what passes for theology these days? Anyone who wants to can decide that they are poor enough and that someone else is rich enough to steal from. This is a moral slippery slope at the top of which stands people like Tim Jones.

He has created a polarised world in which there are given passes to break the laws against theft. The "rich" stores are the bad guys. What about the working stiffs who stock the shelves and work the cash registers? Is not a job such as that a social program of sorts? The very luxuries that Reverend Tim sneers at are feeding and clothing people. The hefty taxes paid by the British public fund a generous social welfare net. And yet Reverend Tim has decided to play god.

If such licence indeed exists, then others will want to play god as well. This will leave Britain with 61 million deities who will preside over person to person wealth redistribution. This is a theological adaptation that hardly resembles any known faith, including that ostensibly studied by Reverend Tim.

There are indeed inequities that put a burden on the poor. There is also private as well as governmental charity. There are also unions and consumer organisations that lobby for better treatment of workers. In the chaos that would inevitably result from following Reverend Tim, there would be far more hunger and actual poverty. Prosperity is ultimately founded upon an orderly society that embodies empathy and concern for others. Tim Jones advocates a self centred theology which is at its heart polytheistic. It is trendoid and counterproductive and a recipe for disaster. If he were a car, he would be recalled by his manufacturer. His divinity school should behave in a similar fashion.

Reprinted with permission from rudistettner.com

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COMMENTS
THE RONBOT HUNTER
THE RONBOT HUNTER
25 months ago: This is a priest with no foresight and no vision.

The average man can always find a way to feed his family. We live in hard times and it is just going to get worst for us all.

That means that as men, we have to work harder to feed our families and stay free to continue to help and feed them.

In jail, they will be in much worst shape with the father unable to help.

The burden then is placed on the mother, to make ends meet.

The priest's soul must be in sin, for him to say, that this is the only way out of misery.

I hope no poor man listens to this priest and decides to end it this way for his family.

The government because of corruption, has run out of funds and they will starve.

THE RONBOT HUNTER
ALL RIGHTS RESERVED
Altruist
Altruist
Eugene, OR
25 months ago: This is indeed an ugly example of how far our society has fallen. The priest should have set up a soup kitchen or directed the people to go to other charities for help, but he is very similar to the priest (Archbishop?) in Victor Hugo's Les Misérables who took pity on Jean Valjean and gave him some gold candlesticks when he was desperate. All Jean Valjean needed was a leg up and from this act of generosity he became a pillar of society.
You on the other hand are playing the part of Javert who's obsession with the point of the law, takes precedence over moral right or wrong.
Our society is filled with desperate hungry people and yes it was wrong for Jean Valjean to steal the loaf of bread that resulted in his being thrown in prison, but that loaf of bread meant the life or death of his starving sister and his family.
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
25 months ago: I'd suggest that the parishioners first steal from the Church collection plate and force Father Jones into having to shoplift to feed his family.
THE RONBOT HUNTER
THE RONBOT HUNTER
25 months ago: a loaf of bread today does not last for years. If a man is caught today and has brought the loaf to his kids before he went to jail.

For how long will the loaf last?

Better to feed his family again tomorrow, and stay free to take care of them for the years to come.

Nothing lasts forever.

But a jail sentence could mean their death.

A woman alone, is not the best solution, no matter the loaf she has for today.

THE RONBOT HUNTER
ALL RIGHTS RESERVED
scotmanster
scotmanster
25 months ago: All I can think of is Robin Hood. The preacher will be looked upon at the 20th century Robin Hood. The poor man taking from the rich to feed their family.

Maybe for once we will look into why this preacher is offering this advice? Are times that bad in his area?
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
25 months ago: ..the 20th century Robin Hood..

No, he's just another frocked prelate claiming to speak for God and suggesting that people do unto to others that he would certainly not want done to him.
scotmanster
scotmanster
25 months ago: So tell me why would he being telling them to steal? Certainly if his congregation was rich he would not be telling them to steal. Would he?

When a man says "I say this with a heavy heart" their is often more to what is really going on than just the headline. The fact is people in the comforts of their homes do not want to face the reality of issues that face many of the poor and homeless.

The Reverend also had this to say..

"The point I'm making is that when we shut down every socially acceptable avenue for people in need, then the only avenue left is the socially unacceptable one," he said, adding that people are often released from prison without any means of support, leading them back into crime.

"What I'm against is the way society has become ever more comfortable with the people at the very bottom, and blinded to their needs," he said."

Yes he is the modern day Robin Hood.
Rudi Stettner
Rudi Stettner
 Moderator
25 months ago: There are a lot of people in my area who are very wealthy from the drug trade and extremely likely to end up dead or in prison. Although things have gotten worse lately, orderly safe streets have attracted businesses which can provide jobs. Contributing to social chaos will immeasurably worsen the lot of those the reverend purports to care about.

The perverse thought occurred to me that the reverend might have calculatedly sacrificed his reputation to dramatise the problem. I share his perception that money needs to do good things. I like to believe that a holistic approach to society's ills is called for, in which sectors of society that are treated as disconnected and adversarial are mobilised in a constructive manner
scotmanster
scotmanster
25 months ago: "The perverse thought occurred to me that the reverend might have calculatedly sacrificed his reputation to dramatise the problem."

Yes I totally agree. A trait of Robin Hood.
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
25 months ago: I saw an excellent retort to this phony publicity seeking Robin Hood at:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1237883/DAILY-MAIL-COMMENT-Devils-advocate.html
scotmanster
scotmanster
25 months ago: Actually have not read that. I come to my own conclusions without outside help the majority of the time. Robinhood was my first reaction to reading Rudi's article.
scotmanster
scotmanster
25 months ago: Don't misunderstand me mark was not trying to say you need other media to make your conclusion.

I do see your point theft is wrong. But it still does not explain why the Reverend felt compelled to tell his congregation it is ok to steal.

Most people detach themselves from the issue because emotionally they can not handle it. They don't want to know. If they wanted to know they would feel emotionally compelled to help. But that is the society we do not live in. We live in a selfish society.
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
25 months ago: Scot,

I cited the response article because it accurately reflected my views, and it's common sense. This minister is wearing a frock with the implied God seal of approval saying it's okay to shoplift; that's a recipe to incite criminal anarchy.

Also, if he's a modern day Robin Hood, why doesn't he do the shoplifting and give the proceeds to his poor parishioners?
25 months ago: Whatever happened to "Thou shalt not steal"?

I don't see any place where Jesus encouraged his followers to steal under any circumstances.

Philippians 4:11-13

"Not that I speak from want, for I have learned to be content in whatever circumstances I am. I know how to get along with humble means, and I also know how to live in prosperity; in any and every circumstance I have learned the secret of being filled and going hungry, both of having abundance and suffering need. I can do all things through Him who strengthens me." Apostle Paul

Living on a higher level.
Rudi Stettner
Rudi Stettner
 Moderator
25 months ago: Who is rich? He who rejoices in his portion, as it is written (Psalm 128:2) "You shall eat the fruit of the labor of your hands; you shall be happy, and it shall go well with you." "You shall be" refers to this world; and "it shall be well with you" refers to the world to come.

Ben Zoma Pirkei Avos 4:1
Altruist
Altruist
Eugene, OR
25 months ago: A lot of good comments. I like the one that suggested the priest was sacrificing his reputation to publicize the fact that our society has gotten to the point that people are starving to death on the streets. Many of the charitable organizations that care for the homeless and destitute are overwhelmed.
During the great depression, when NGO's were overwhelmed the responsibility fell to the government to help set up soup lines, tent cities, and projects like the CCC to give people jobs.
During the great depression people were much prouder than they are today and resented hand outs and charity. A job is always preferable to a hand out. Perhaps we need another CCC now to give people jobs.
Wait isn't that what Obama was trying to do with his stimulus program? Isn't that what the recent climate summit was trying to do for third world countries with their starving millions?
There is a need to plant more trees to save the planet and there is a need to feed the masses. The idea is that the rich nations that cause most of the pollution, should pay the poor nations who pollute relatively little but who are suffering because of our pollution, to plant trees, so they can survive and also save the planet.
Pure unadulterated Socialism! But it works!
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
25 months ago: Altruist,

The article is regarding a minister in York, England not New England. As you should know, the United Kingdom already practices unadulterated socialism with nationalized health care and the provision of welfare services on the basis of right.

Are you admitting now that it's a failure since a Church of England minister has been sadly reduced to advocating theft in order to survive in their socialist paradise?
Altruist
Altruist
Eugene, OR
25 months ago: I know that the minister is from York but are you saying that the very same conditions do not occur here? I am talking about a world wide problem and I am concerned not just with people here but the community of man.
England does have serious problems with poverty and they are considering "targeting" their aid to where it is needed the most, and with meaningful work requirements, but I think their health care system is superior to ours. This is a good discussion of their problem: http://www.mathaba.net/0_index.shtml?x=622255
My Pure unadulterated socialism comment was tongue in cheek in response to the right's rejection of any government involvement other than the military being deemed socialist.
Obviously totalitarian socialism as practiced by Russia does not work, but neither does pure capitalism. What I advocate is a dynamic democratic socialism where the government is seen as a servant of man, where the best ideas from around the world are tried, and if they do not work, modified or changed to a different system. I advocate pragmatism, and the countries I would look to for models are the Scandinavian countries where poverty and suffering are minimized, and happiness is maximized.
scotmanster
scotmanster
25 months ago: I see your point Altruist. I am not sure a direct democracy would work though. The problem boils down to greed. With a more direct form of democracy we would truly be in charge. We would take part in making laws, then their should be no excuses. But do you think greedy politicians want anything to do with actually putting us in charge? If anything from the past few years that is exactly what they are preventing.

I read alot about our forming fathers and one gripe I had was they all were wealthy men. Some actually had a conscience though. But besides that they surely didn't want citizens telling them what to do. They went as far as not allowing us to partake in the writing of the Constitution. It was not released in the papers till after the document was fully drafted. Big mistake on their part.
scotmanster
scotmanster
25 months ago: This closed door politics has to end.
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
25 months ago: Altruist,

I was being tongue in cheek too and even in the USA, our economy is a mixture of capitalism and socialism. From my pragmatic perspective, it's a question of balance and how much social largess can be afforded based on the country's ability to produce.

For example, Norway is touted as an ideal socialist cradle to grave state with eco-green goodness sprinkled on top yet they produce nearly 2.5 million barrels of 'evil' oil per day to help fund that social largess for it's relatively tiny population (4.7m)

Of course we could afford more on social programs if the chief politicos like Moon Beam Bush and now O-bomb-o wasn't engaging in perpetual trillion dollar(s) wars that aren't going to pay dividends.
scotmanster
scotmanster
25 months ago: I have to say one thing the big difference is I don't see how the reverend is promoting socialism. Granted a guy that is starving to feed his family is one thing but calling it socialism? I don't agree with that a form of Government is alot like a corporation they make decisions as one. Those decision are not based on human feelings. They are based on dollar signs. A government can't think just like a corporation can't think. The problem is the Government that is too powerful is the downfall of mankind each and every time. If these politicians where held truly accountable they would not dare do wrong.
Altruist
Altruist
Eugene, OR
25 months ago: Norway used to be dependent on 90% foreign oil and then they entered into a renewable energy and conservation program and also discovered a whole lot of oil in the North Sea. Now most of the electricity is renewable but they export a whole bunch of oil outside the country (4th largest exporter) and that brings in a lot of revenue that can be used for social programs, so it probably wouldn't work as an example we could emulate socially. Despite having a surplus of oil Norway is amongst the top in research on wind and wave power and in carbon sequestration.

http://www.mees.com/postedarticles/oped/v50n10-5OD01.htm

Scot you are still thinking of the government as an evil entity that controls the people and it should be looked at as the reverse. The government is a tool of the people to help those who can not help themselves. In a true democracy the government is the people and so giving the people more power only makes life better for those people. More freedoms, more rights, more empowerment. We should make common cause, not in destroying government, but in making it more responsive to the public and less to major corporations. More democratic and less fascist.

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