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Phoenix Man Jailed And Fined For Hosting Home Bible Study

Posted 10 months ago|117 comments|905 views
Private property???
VIDEOS
Written by
"A Phoenix, Ariz., man is in jail for hosting a Bible study group in his home. Pastor Michael Salman starting serving 60 days on Monday after city officials said his weekly meetings were akin to church services, which violated several building codes. "Bible studies are not allowed to be conducted in your residence or the barn on your property as these structures do not comply with the construction code for this use," a letter from the city says."
http://www.torontosun.com/2012/07/11/ari...

"Phoenix Man Faces Jail Time for Home Bible Studies...In addition to two months in jail, Michael Salman has been ordered to pay more than $12,000 in fines and three years of probation, all for using his private home to host weekly religious meetings."
http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/us/2012/July/...

Religious persecution USA... where it is apparently illegal to host private home Bible Studies. IF those same gatherings were to watch the Super Bowl, gambling or the devouring of some prime rib... NO PROBLEM... bring up Jesus... get your "go to jail free" card! Now that's religious freedom! Seriously? What if it was a "PRIDE EVENT" at the Pentagon? Did they have the necessary permits? Well it don't matter anyway... this is Arizona, where illegals are welcome... until they have a Bible Study in their homes...

BUT this isn't the first time something like this happened...

"Last year, California Christians were fined $600 for holding a home Bible study in San Juan Capistrano, a city founded on belief in Jesus Christ."
http://www.californiality.com/2011/09/ho...

"A husband and wife in California host a Bible study in their home. For this quiet exercise of their Christian faith, city officials have fined them hundreds of dollars, and will continue fining them every time they meet. This issue is now going to court."
http://washingtonexaminer.com/article/11...

"Don't Waste Your Life" by John Piper
http://dwynrhh6bluza.cloudfront.net/reso...
UPDATE - 10 months ago
Another case in SAN DIEGO...

"A local pastor and his wife claim they were interrogated by a San Diego County official, who then threatened them with escalating fines if they continued to hold Bible studies in their home...Broyles said, "The county asked, 'Do you have a regular meeting in your home?' She said, 'Yes.' 'Do you say amen?' 'Yes.' 'Do you pray?' 'Yes.' 'Do you say praise the Lord?' 'Yes.'" ...Broyles said a few days later the couple received a written warning that listed "unlawful use of land" and told them to "stop religious assembly or apply for a major use permit" -- a process that could cost tens of thousands of dollars..."If the county thinks they can shut down groups of 10 or 15 Christians meeting in a home, what about people who meet regularly at home for poker night? What about people who meet for Tupperware parties? What about people who are meeting to watch baseball games on a regular basis and support the Chargers?"
http://www.10news.com/news/19562217/deta...
UPDATE - 10 months ago
Here is a YouTube Constitutional debate on the issue...
Home Bible Studies Illegal?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUFnUZghe...
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COMMENTS
10 months ago: IF you look closer on the back of the money it's gotta say...
"IN GOV WE TRUST"
10 months ago: Good thin TupperWare Parties are safe !;]
10 months ago: $ bill. It also has an all seeing eye which is a Masonic symbol. Doesn't the detached tower mean their job isn't finished yet. Big brother is everywhere from what I have seen.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
10 months ago: How many people were attending the prayer meetings? 10, 50, 100?
Concerning safety issues, was the building adequate, enough emergency exits, enough parking, not a nuisance to the neighbors, etc.? You get a hundred people together once a week, in most neighborhoods, and it could be a problem.
10 months ago: That is a good point, but I wonder how many birthday parties etc are overlooked each month by the same governing authorities...
asillynert
asillynert
American Fork, UT
10 months ago: Yes but also keep in mind that birthdays parties ect are a one time thing. Where as these religious activities are a repetitive. In most cases they were most likely offered warnings, given instructions on how to meet code.

I love how things like this can be construed as prejudice. I you turn a simple fight into racism cause they were two different races. When in reality it was a simple fight. Or when they turn a simple a traffic stop into prejudice cause the person who violated a traffic law was Muslim. Follow the law being of a certain race or religion doesnt give you any more right to break the law.

Law is the law follow the proper safety procedures for large gatherings. Stop hiding behind your race or religion when things dont go your way.
10 months ago: Asillynert,

There is more to this than just occupancy codes, there has even been a book written by an Atheist S.E. Cupp, pointing out the attack on Christianity, and it's values... if you peruse some rants/raves you will find that there is not only an "open season" on Christians in the media, but in every walk of society... it is the only religion that it is legal to bash and trash...

American Muslims Stone Christians But Victims Get Arrested
http://www.rantrave.com/Rant/American-Mu...

Difference: Schools vs Prisons... Bible Welcome in Prisons!
http://www.rantrave.com/Rant/Difference-...

ABC News Censored Nik Wallenda's Crossing of Niagara Falls
http://www.rantrave.com/Rant/ABC-News-Ce...

Arrested For Reading The Bible
http://www.rantrave.com/Rant/Arrested-Fo...

Good Christian B!TCHES
http://www.rantrave.com/Rant/Good-Christ...

Bleeping Jesus Christ
http://www.rantrave.com/Rant/Bleeping-Je...

The War On Christians
http://www.rantrave.com/Rant/The-War-On-...

Separation of Church and Obama
http://www.rantrave.com/Rant/Separation-...

...so the only question you have to ask yourself is... why can't you see it? One thing I don't do is "hide" ...if you haven't figured that out already, I am simply pointing out a double standard when it comes to religion. Maybe it's because 'religion' scares the hell out of the government, or maybe that it effects more change than policy... I don't know, but there is obviously something going on.
10 months ago: Asillynert,

However I do have to agree with you that if a crime has been committed, be it against the State or City... penalties need to be paid.... with all the media to highlight 'religious nuts' I wonder if it would have been as big a deal if it was a club of another sort...
asillynert
asillynert
American Fork, UT
10 months ago: Now I really want you to look at the behavior of most these and really judge many of the ones I looked at. The so called religious people would seek out events for people trying to live their life their own way. So instead these religious groups break up these events and preach hate. Its not preaching hate you say how about this whats the worst possible existence to be in hell. What do many of these people say I hope you burn in hell you faggit ect which is hoping for the worst possible thing towards another person which is the definition of hate.

How would you feel if I went to easter communion. And preached how I thought you were gonna burn in hell. That your church was created by the clergy and pope to gain power. And taking communion from child rapist will surely reserve you a spot in hell.

You would get mad probably call the cops and they would most likely arrest me. But are they arresting me cause my religion no cause I was disturbing the peace and preaching hate.

Honestly I have lived both lives I grew up in foster homes experienced 5-6 completely different religions. Till I found one that inspired me and was fervent for almost 5 years. Then I realized I dont have to bow I found the lifestyle the comfort not the doctrine the words were hollow but the morals led to a better life.

Since I have left the church but still live in a very religious area. I had people that I had known for years disown me. Keep in mind my morals were same so its not like I was going to lead them to temptation. The only friends that continued to speak to me were ones that would only come to preach about my damnation unless I saw the path. Then my neighbors tryed using the hoa to fine me to death I remember I once got a fine for lawn being to long I got a tape measure and found out it was the shortest in a 2 block radius. My kids would make friends at school and once their parents knew we were not religious. The kids were no longer welcome. Losing promotions and job offers cause I wasn't part of local religion.

Coming from a man thats been on both sides of the fence. I can tell you being non religious people will search for you and force their beliefs upon you if you dont submit. You get persucuted, only times I ever got anyone treating badly when I was religious. Was when I treated them badly and tryed to thrust my religion on them. If kept religious conversation only with those that wanted no one sought me out and told me my religion was wrong.
10 months ago: Asillynert,

Unfortunately for you... you are plagued by the oppressive cult of Mormonism, the good news is that thousands are leaving it as we speak...

Thousands of Mormons Leave Church for Christianity
http://www.rantrave.com/Rave/Thousands-o...

...also unfortunately Mormonism has nothing to do with Biblical Christianity, and so I am sympathetic with your classification of all religions into one 'hateful' pot. That being said, truth isn't diminished one bit by lies, I was also raised in an oppressive religion (Catholicism) based on ignorance fear and ungodly traditions (not the Bible), yet since discovering a personal relationship with Christ, I no longer need religion (to work my way to God) because He came and found me...

As to telling someone that they are in danger of missing out on God's purpose for their lives... that is the most loving thing one can do... someone told me, and mentioned hell too if I'm not mistaken... at first I was angry, but later I discovered it was only because they were telling me the truth that I needed to hear. I am sorry for your pain, however when you find Jesus Christ (not the Mormon Jesus - Lucifer's bro) ...I mean the Biblical Jesus (Lord God Almighty in the flesh) your losses will seem minuscule, and you will be a new creature !:]

"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." (2 Corinthians 5:17)
PerfectHorizon
PerfectHorizon
Chicago, IL
10 months ago: Is it that different than the oppressive cult of Christianity?

They both preach fairy tales as if they are factual...they both scare people into submission...

I'm still waiting for you to tell me why Christianity is right and every other religion ever (including the ones that are much older than Christianity) are wrong.
10 months ago: PH,

Sorry to keep you waiting...

What you call a 'fairy tale' is based on the historical fact of the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and the transformation of His cowardly believers into Martyrs that were bold enough to change their world for their God. That world is still significantly impacted everyday by many who discover the living God through Jesus Christ. I for one wasn't 'looking for religion' ...in fact as an early teen I gave my life to Satan (literally) as well as every eastern religious cult... I was looking for pleasure. Yet I hadn't challenged the claims of Christ as 'the only way to God' ...and when someone showed me in the Bible that I could know if Jesus was real or not by simply accepting Him on His terms... it all made sense... I was trying to manipulate 'God' my way... but if God was God... I would have to meet Him on His terms... through Christ. I did... if this was just another 'experience' like my brothers and sisters thought... I wouldn't still be with Christ over 30 years later. Because HE lived up to His Word... and made me into a new creature... and I can't deny it.

All that being said, personally discovered Jesus alive, true to His Word, and communicating with me personally daily... proving to me and millions that He is the only Way Truth and Life... so based on my experience, I would have to concur that all other religions are false... however Jesus is merciful to the ignorant, and deceived. ONLY deceivers are punished... proud and unrepentant... and willingly disobedient.

"Every high priest (Christ being the example) is selected from among the people and is appointed to represent the people in matters related to God, to offer gifts and sacrifices for sins. 2 He is able to deal gently with those who are ignorant and are going astray, since he himself is subject to weakness." (Hebrews 5:1-2)
PerfectHorizon
PerfectHorizon
Chicago, IL
10 months ago: There is lots of evidence that Jesus was a real man (a Jewish teacher). There, however is absolutely zero evidence that he returned to life after being killed.

That being said: I really think that it is great for you that you have had this experience in life. I'm happy for you that you have found a reason that allows you to live a life of happiness. You should keep believing in what makes you happy, but you should understand that other people have other ways to do that.

I'm still waiting for a reason to believe Christianity is more "real" than any other religion (especially the ones that are MUCH older than it)
10 months ago: People can be nutty as fruit cakes because that's just how they are.
I'm not speaking here of politics or deep religious beliefs.
I see you had a very hard time. It isn't fair to any child to grow up under those circumstances. If I were your mother, you would have been safe and cared for. A mother brings love to her children and that's it. She teaches them if she is good how to face the world and still love it and befriend it. If I were your neighbor, I would have been the best. I would have treated you as family. There are people who say they are Christians, and I've seen them treat people pretty bad. It sickened me. They read the Bible every day and talk in tongue, and I've seem them treat elderly parents poorly because their parents may have to rely on them.
They don't practice anything that helps someone else, but they can be ungiving and wretched. They go to their church services and many are cults. I understand exactly what you are saying because I know people like this. That's just who people are. Everyone is differenct. I had Jehovah's try to break down my door and get into my house to sway me away. The very fact that they would do this shows me arrogance and hostility. They claim the world will come to an end and they know it for sure as a fact. Give me a break. That is doom and gloom.
I had Reverend Moon's disciples flood into the small town I live in. I'm sitting with my neighbors and child peacefully, and this young niave boy about 15 starts preaching to me. I wasn't disrespectful to him, but he didn't know anything about life so what credentials did he have to preach to me. He was brainwashed. I'm a loving mother and wife, and I help anyone who asks for help from me within limits. You can only do so much. I'm a good neighbor and a good friend. This is all I know. Whatever you sow, you reap. I have no regrets in life.
My kids were raised in the Catholic faith and go out in the world and do good for others in daily life. They work hard and they are good providers.
I'm happy you finally found your niche because that is the ultimate goal. It is up to you to carry forward and give back to someone else who was unfortunate, and make their lives better because you have that knowledge of what you experienced.
PerfectHorizon
PerfectHorizon
Chicago, IL
10 months ago: So let me get this straight...you, a good christian woman, is now criticizing my mother? Really? That's the direction you want to take this, you want to attack my mother?

My mother, who by the way is a devout Christian woman, raised me to do what was right, not because Jesus/God wanted us to, but rather because we are all people, and people should help each other. She also was very supportive of me investigating other religions and making my own choice on the matter. We are still very close, she lives only a few miles from me and I see her several times every week.

As for Catholicism...if there is a more evil corporation on the planet I have never heard of it. That whole organization is a wicked, poisonous plague on this earth.
10 months ago: I don't know why you are talking to me, but I was not in any way shape or form speaking to you. Get your act together. Who is your mother? What?????? I don't want to know any of you.
There are some other people that are more important and that sincerely express themselves in a good manner.
Just to note. There are times when women try this stuff on me. That's what it is like. More like a woman than a man on my case.
10 months ago: This comment is for asillynert. I appreciate his post.
PerfectHorizon
PerfectHorizon
Chicago, IL
10 months ago: I don't know why you insist on feeling sorry for yourself because you are a woman. I don't care if you are or are not a woman. Nobody here is attacking you because you are or are not a woman...people here come after you because you are incapable of making a coherent statement about things and also because rather than make factual based arguments you spend time making them with nothing. You never present any factual evidence for anything, it is easy to attack your positions because they are based on nothing. Do some research, make a coherent statement and back it up with some sort of actual information (for example instead of saying "I won't talk about the Constitution"...you could actually read it and point out the portions that support your argument)

I am very sincere...I want the Constitution of the United States to be upheld.
10 months ago: PH,

Not to be petty... but you are the worst Christian critic we have on this site... according to your own words if your mother is a "good Christian" she also would then be a terrorist, that believes in fairy tales, narrow minded bigot, who doesn't have a grasp on reality... did I leave anything out??
PerfectHorizon
PerfectHorizon
Chicago, IL
10 months ago: I am critical...I'm not sure why you are acting like that is a negative thing. I simply point out that there are vast amounts of unsavory aspects found in Christianity: Evangelical churches (similar to and including Westboro) spend all their time spewing hatred towards everyone. Anders Behring Breivik slaughtered innocent children mercilessly. There are several groups that have invested great deals of time into blowing up abortion clinics and murdering doctors who perform abortion...just to name a few (and that doesn't even begin to touch on the child molestation).

Now lets not put words in each others mouth: I have never said ALL Christians were terrorists, in fact I fairly pointed out that there are extremists found in EVERY religion. I also never said that every Christian was a narrow minded bigot (for example I don't think you or Huey would be considered bigots)...I said that there are A LOT of bigots within the faith. She does believe in fairy tales, and in general that makes her grasp on certain realities of life a little bit "sunshiny and unicorny".
10 months ago: PH,

You said... "I'm still waiting for a reason to believe Christianity is more "real" than any other religion (especially the ones that are MUCH older than it)" Mmmmm...

According to the Bible, Jesus Christ is the God of the old Testament, and as Creator of Heaven and Earth, 'religion' doesn't get much older than that !:] Those who claim that their 'religion' is older than Christianity, obviously hasn't understood the biblical prophesies and Christ's own words...

"Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, who formed you from the womb: "I am the LORD, who made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself" (Isaiah 44:24)

"Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am."" (John 8:58)

"15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy." (Colossians 1:15-18)

Jesus Christ is not only the Creator, but the re-creator, and that my friend, I have found out first hand... thank God !:]
10 months ago: Truth, Thank you. You stood up and that is a beautiful thing.
Christians will carry the cross for Him and never question.
Sunny
10 months ago: Sunny,

You are right we need to stand and not deny the good things God has done for us, we may not always be able to communicate those things in a way some 'intellectuals' would like... but then again our faith is for everyone from the oldest to the youngest.
PerfectHorizon
PerfectHorizon
Chicago, IL
10 months ago: Very interesting, though I still find it difficult to believe that the bible (written in the 1st century by man) disproves the Hindu religion (practiced for nearly 5500 years longer than Christianity).

Regardless, I think your faith is a great thing for you. I was raised in a Christian (Catholic...I'm Italian...) home, however it was the Priest at the local church that encouraged me to question everything. We are still friends to this day, and he has contributed to a book that myself and a college professor of mine are working on.
10 months ago: PH,

Regardless of how things end on this rant, I have thoroughly enjoyed getting to know you better... I'm sorry but the only Italian I know is.... "Foggeta Boudit" !:]
10 months ago: Truth, here is my definition of intellect: I'm not referring to anyone in particular. Many people like to talk a big talk for attention and do this by being arrogant, Truth, but they are far from intellects because they use smoke and mirrors to define themselves to others. They try to mask that they are limited and can't communicate, so they criticize others who they know nothing about.
Any great minded person knows that you speak plainly and to the point to communicate with people and not try to break them down by mearly uttering words and flaunting themselves. Intellects open their minds and hearts and are not out of reach from others because they have a deep understanding and don't shut anyone out by having to be right. When they do, it is a tactic that they use to cover up how boring they are. Look at the people that have contributed great writings in philosophy and science, art and culture, great religious leaders and world leaders that life never forgets throughout the ages. Our forefathers seem to have had the ability to look down the road into America's future and define and protect the common person from those that would hurt them from the obvious problems we have today. Those people were intellects, not always perfect people as history testifies, but they had the ability to foresee problems and the people were important to them. One of the greatness intellects is Jesus. Those that try to emmulate his greatness for the sake of wantonness are quickly forgotten, but they do harm in the meantime, such as Jones. That is what separates the real thing from the fake or counterfeit. Usually this type of a person is very vain and full of their own self-importance. That word counterfeit fits appropriately.
10 months ago: Another thing is the Constitution was written for the American people's protection - every single person. It wasn't written to be repeatedly used personally against people to put them down or in their place because they need to have it to bully people. If you don't understand people, how can you fully be knowledgeable of the Constitution and what it stands for.
10 months ago: Fire is a big threat to people getting out of a gathering unharmed. There are fire codes as you know.
Maybe if it was safety inspected by the Town, and they filed for permission to have the Bible service, then it could have been avoided. If it is for the reasons of religious beliefs,than that is not right.
PerfectHorizon
PerfectHorizon
Chicago, IL
10 months ago: This seems a bit harsh, however like OOTB said...if he had too many people in the home and was breaking a law, and if that law was clear, I guess I could see a fine...jail time seems ridiculous
10 months ago: I hear you, but in the case of the Fromm's after public outrage and support even the city reimbursed their money, and decided to re-examine the outdated municipal code that targeted their religious gathering...

"The City of San Juan Capistrano was hit with a tsunami of letters, phone calls and emails accusing municipal government officials of levying fines for the study of religion...What was the result? ...The Planning Commission met a few days later and formally petitioned the city to change the ordinance, declaring the outdated law "unclear and archaic."
http://www.californiality.com/2011/09/ho...
10 months ago: Like in the following case, it is merely the 'religious' nature of the meetings that makes them illegal; and my question is... where is the beloved constitution here?

"We told them this is not really a religious assembly — this is just a Bible study with friends. We have a meal, we pray, that was all," Jones said.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,5226...
10 months ago: Here is a YouTube Constitutional debate on the issue...
Home Bible Studies Illegal?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUFnUZghe...
PerfectHorizon
PerfectHorizon
Chicago, IL
10 months ago: After a quick bit of research, the Arizona Constitution has a very similar section in Article 2 to the Establishment Clause of the US Constitution. A very basic analysis would show that clearly people are free to exercise their religion how they choose in Arizona.

However, there are complicating matters here. If the man was exceeding a fire code or illegally using his home as a church (and profiting from it) then I could see the fines being levied against him.

My basic, and very quick analysis, is that assuming he was not exceeding the fire code or using his home as a church (which he clearly wasn't since the State has since changed their tune) that the State of Arizona did in-fact breech their own Constitutional law.
10 months ago: PH you are going to love this...

GOVERNMENT SAYS CHRISTIANS ARE TERRORISTS
Homeland security says any pro-lifers, and people who believe in the end time Bible prophecies are terrorists. Obviously Christians believe in not killing babies (pro-life), and obviously Christians believe in the end time Bible prophecy. Basically Christians are being targeted, and singled out."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0kiSGKbl...
10 months ago: Now look, we have to treat all religions equally.

So, the way to deal with Islamic terrorism is to be sure to assert that Christians, Buddhists, Jainists, Hindus etc are just as bad, all things considered.

Problems with stonings and amputations? Christians are just as bad.


See? Problem's gone away. ;)
PerfectHorizon
PerfectHorizon
Chicago, IL
10 months ago: To be fair, there are Religious Terrorists of every religion (except maybe Buddhism). Christian extremists bomb abortion clinics and murder doctors (at church no less) for example; one could make a convincing argument that the Westboro Baptist Church is a terrorist group. There are Jewish extremists, Muslim extremists, Hindu extremists...every religion has them. Christian terrorism is often ignored in the United States but it does exist. It is clearly wrong to label all Christians terrorists, but to ignore the fact that they do exist is equally foolish.
10 months ago: Actually, many religions do not have terrorist organizations justifying their violence against unbelievers by the precise words of their scriptures.

Many religions were not founded by war criminal, child-rapist, polygamist, supremacist slavers who are held up as the model for humanity.

One or two were, but not all.
10 months ago: I say individual people can be terrorists and should be prosecuted....
PerfectHorizon
PerfectHorizon
Chicago, IL
10 months ago: Terrorists are Terrorists...most of them are driven by religion fundamentalism. I don't particularly care what religion it is. A Jewish terrorists = Muslim terrorists = Christian terrorist = Hindu terrorist...they are all the same brand of evil.
10 months ago: Truth I don't think anything has changed much.
Christians seemed to be tossed to the lions in every day life.
Good thing we are strong people, logical, and successful for the common good.
I didn't see anything wrong with having the religious gathering. Knowing how things are today, they should have checked first with either the landlord or town. It is always good to play it safe when their is so much discrimination around.
Jehovahs that I know when I lived in an apartment building had religious gatherings once a week in a building that housed different denominations. Nobody every complained about them. Plus, they drive big $60,000 cars or huge SRVs and go out on these big trips to Italy, Spain, you name it in the name of their faith. They approach people who aren't interested in their beliefs. Where does that come from? Nobody complains. If you are a Christian, then people complain about every little thing.
PerfectHorizon
PerfectHorizon
Chicago, IL
10 months ago: I'm not sure why Christians have this feeling that they are being discriminated against. The issue is that often times Christians get the idea that, because they are the majority in this country, they are free to do whatever they want and are somehow entitled to special treatment. Anytime someone makes an argument or a request that Christians follow the rules of the Constitution they lash out saying that they are being discriminated against.

As far as Jehovahs Witnesses having meetings once a week in an apartment...I highly doubt, unless it is the largest apartment ever, that they are having a full on church service in there.

Members of every religion approach other people who are not interested in their beliefs and try to tell them why they are right, this is not exclusive to Jehovah's Witnesses.

Why should anyone complain about them going to Italy? How is that any different than Ed Young or Bill Hybels driving around in Ferrari's and Lambos? I live pretty close to Willowbrook (the third largest Christian church in the country)...every person who pulls in there drives a Lexus, Acura, Ferrari, Lambo, Infiniti, Land Rover or some other luxury car. Hardly a vision of the plight of the poor, always-giving Christian folks of this country.

As for your response to the man in Phoenix: You don't see anything wrong with a person getting a permit to turn his garage into a game room but instead making into a Church? I thought Lying was a sin?????
10 months ago: You seem to think you know how different groups are treated. I never feel discriminated against. Maybe because they go to college and have good jobs they feel the sky is the limit. Where did you get that idea that they want special treatment. I don't know one.
To answer your questions, yes I did live with Jehovah Witnesses that took over several apartments in the building. The leaders also meet in small groups. Does that help you. The building manager was a Jehovah. Also, the landlord used some of these people to maintain and repair apartments giving them work. I would find mainly my religious pictures smashed in my house after they had been in the apartment. I had a person again who lived here who tried to force the religion me who actually got out of controll banging on my door like they were police. . You highly doubt what?
Again, they travel to spread their beliefs. Okay
Italy was open to them, but not Spain from what they told me. They get all this paid for free, along with cars if they are up in rank. You can jump on anything and rip it apart and compare it with something else to prove I don't know what I am talking about even though I lived it. Christians aren't poor in this country. People who can't find work have been displaced. Every group has rich and poor.As far as the subject this is about, I really didn't see anything wrong with it if it was only temporary and the leader was legally ordained. Mostly people will find a house of worship to hold their prayer meetings and services.
PerfectHorizon
PerfectHorizon
Chicago, IL
10 months ago: I have had members of nearly every faith (although mostly Jehovah's Witnesses and Evangelical Christians) try to force their beliefs on me. It is not limited to one religion...every religion has people that do this.

Christians travel to spread their beliefs all the time. My cousin just went on a Christian mission to Haiti. It has happened in Cambodia by Evangelical Christians. Again, every faith spends time trying to force their beliefs on other people.

It doesn't matter if he is ordained. Are you saying that LYING isn't a sin in your religion? This man lied about what he was using his garage for. He was given a permit based on that lie...and then was caught and punished for breaking the law...how is this ok by you?
PerfectHorizon
PerfectHorizon
Chicago, IL
10 months ago: Also, the Jehovah Witnesses in your apartment building? Did they lie to the Super about what they were doing? Were they exceeding the fire code? Did they receive a permit under false pretenses?
10 months ago: You shouldn't condemn other people if you have to research the Constitution.
PerfectHorizon
PerfectHorizon
Chicago, IL
10 months ago: I had to research the ARIZONA STATE CONSTITUTION...I don't live in Arizona...I don't know what the STATE CONSTITUTION says.

Are you aware that there is a difference between a State Constitution and the US Constitution?
10 months ago: My comment would just cause problems at this point.....
10 months ago: Then leave it to the scholars.
PerfectHorizon
PerfectHorizon
Chicago, IL
10 months ago: Scholars do research...its in the job description.

I don't know every clause of every STATE constitution. I do however know every clause of the United States Constitution...What state do you live in? Do you know off the top of your head what the Constitution of your State says about religion?
10 months ago: Is this a joke?
PerfectHorizon
PerfectHorizon
Chicago, IL
10 months ago: No, you criticized me for having to look up the wording of the Arizona State Constitution. Why would I know the wording of a State Constitution that I don't live in?

I assume since you refused to answer that you don't know what your own State Constitution has to say about religion...much like I know for a fact that you don't know what the US Constitution says about (I know this because you have clearly demonstrated that you have never read even one sentence of the US Constitution).
10 months ago: http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/valleyfever/2012/07/michael_salman_is_not_in_jail.php

According to the article he falsified building documents claiming that he was building a garage and instead built a religious assembly in his rear yard illegally. Which is a breach of several city codes, public safety and fire regulations. He then further committed crimes by operating and collecting money from people who attended his residence.

I can understand having a bible study group weekly, but having a weekly religious assembly in a illegal structure that can potentially put the public at risk? that is stretching it a little thin for this falling under religious persecution.

To religion falling under a terrorism classification, just about any organizational structure can fall under this heading. All it takes is a few individuals getting it into their heads that they are superior and what they think is right, is right for the whole world. This ideology is not unique to religious groups, but can also be found in militarizes, governments, even Joe/Jane across the street. As Truthbrary said, this is something the individual has to be held accounted for, not a organization that doesn't support it.

Now if that organization supports those individuals, the label applies... have to tip toe around this one. I think just about every nation has supported militia forces in coups and other "terrorists" acts in order to soften up a dictatorships or other conflicts. The line blurs fast in what is and isn't support of terrorist actions.
10 months ago: Nethel,

Thanks for the links... as I said to Asillynert, I agree that one needs to pay for actions against the law, civil or other... that being said there seems to be an eagerness on the part of law-enforcement to single out religious meetings; as I gave link to where in one case the law itself was deemed "unclear and archaic" (below) and the charges were dropped... but given this man's history, God seems to be more forgiving than the earthly authorities !:]

"The City of San Juan Capistrano was hit with a tsunami of letters, phone calls and emails accusing municipal government officials of levying fines for the study of religion...What was the result? ...The Planning Commission met a few days later and formally petitioned the city to change the ordinance, declaring the outdated law "unclear and archaic."
http://www.californiality.com/2011/09/ho...
10 months ago: Public outcry may get a small government to back off and change its methods but that does not mean a crime has not been committed. In fact many crimes are forgiven just to get them out of the courts.

The excuse that it was a religious meeting does not wash and calling it religious persecution is like calling a dog a horse, it don't make it so, it is still a dog and this was still a crime. Just like the pot smokers, he needs to do his time and pay his fines.

Let me put it another way. How would you like to be living in the apartment below someone who had a religious (or other type) meeting every few days and had to put up with the noise, the traffic, the overworked plumbing, the constant creaking of the floor joist above your head? Would not be a pleasant experience, especially if they stuff too many bodies in the room and ended up breaking through and crushing your puny body under the debris.

Building codes are there for your protection. just because it is a religious service or even a Bible meeting is no reason to think it is excusable to break the law.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
10 months ago: That's where I was going too. Don't get me wrong, there is definitely religious persecution happening on a grand scale, and the majority of that persecution is directed against Christians. I was personally persecuted, by my own brother, the college professor, last weekend. I listened to a hate filled diatribe against all Christians for a good 30 minutes, in which he professed his genetic moral genetic superiority over all Christians (never mind the fact that he and I share the same genes) and he stated that he lives in abject terror of Christians. He also stated that when his colleagues and fellow scientists discuss the matter, they are all in agreement that the sooner Christianity is abolished, the better off the world will be.

All that being said, I don't believe the case in point in Arizona is a case of religious persecution. I think the man was in violation of several local building and safety ordinances, and ignored several warnings that he was in violation. He even went as far as lying to the city in order to try to circumvent the law. That is not a great Christian testamony. He also hurts the effort to bring true persecution to the public stage. People see a case like this and say "oh, those Christians always yell 'persecution' every time they don't get what they want" just like Scientology wants to claim persecution every time they get convicted of fraud.


On a different tack, I heard of a woman who was fined for operating a daycare in her home without a license, because her neighbors children got on the school bus and waited at her house for a half hour. No matter that the woman didn't get paid for it. No matter that she was just doing the right thing and helping out a neighbor.
http://liberalvaluesblog.com/2009/09/27/...
10 months ago: Box, Siblings don't see eye to eye in the same family. It is a mystery to me how that happens. We all go our separate ways.
I like what you wrote. I do like all people of all faiths and even if they don't have a faith. It doesn't matter to me. I'm a fighter though, and I'll go down fighting if I have to.
People are people. In every day life you see those that treat others with superiority. I say to myself what a waste. People like that hide their feelings of inferiority and put on airs. Not worth bothering with.

10 months ago: I lived in a building where people constantly were disturbing, so I called the landlord. We have leases that control behavior with rules when living with other people.
I have called the police when some one was violent in their home and abusive to their wife or kids. I wouldn't stand for it. I had a kid next door to me beating his mother up.
A lot of woman also in the complex were running unlicensed day care centers. That's dangerous to every one. There are people in the apartment who have leased originally with 2 people, and then you see 6 people living there sharing the rent. That's not good. Too many people in one apartment. That's a fire hazard.

This situation was different. They meant well. The laws were changed regardless. So, everyone should be happy.
10 months ago: OK... SIX and BOX...

I think we have all the comments we need to make my point... I AGREE WITH YOU THAT THIS IS NOT PERSECUTION... AND NO, WE SHOULDN'T HOLD A CHRISTIAN PRIDE MONTH AT THE PENTAGON OR NAME THIS CHRISTIAN MONTH JUST BECAUSE SOMEONE WAS AN IDIOT.

But you see this is exactly where we are at with the preferential treatment of the LGBT group because of perceived prejudice for good or bad reasons. IT is not right to hold one groups rights over another, and change historical terms and meanings of words for the accommodation of sect of society.... then idolize the sect, and force society to honor and practically worship a perversion... but I guess if you are going to do it, it's best done at the PENTAGRAM!
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
10 months ago: I agree entirely. The have people working full time to squeak so loudly that they get enough grease to slide through life. Uggghhhh. That might not have been the best choice of words.
10 months ago: BOX,

I don't mind saying this... LOOKS LIKE I'M THE IDIOT... this guy isn't just disobeying the law, he has almost 5 acres of land he is hosting his Bible study on, there is no danger what soever to anyone... and all cars are parked off the street behind his own fence... 4.5 acres is a lot of property! Anyway, this guy is protesting even if it means him going to jail for a longer period HE MAY BE FACING A 3 YEAR TERM... he has more guts than most Christians, and deserves my respect for standing up for religious freedom...

Phoenix Pastor Jailed Over Home Bible Study to Serve 3 Years?
http://www.christianpost.com/news/phoeni...

However I still don't think that he or Christians deserve a special party at the White House, or a special "Faith Month".
PerfectHorizon
PerfectHorizon
Chicago, IL
10 months ago: Truth, are you honestly saying that it doesn't matter at all that he LIED about what he was using the permit for? His permit specifically allowed him to convert his garage into a game room...it was not a permit to build a church.

Is Lying ok just because its for a bible study? I don't think he should necessarily go to jail, but he did lie to government officials and receive a permit under false pretenses.
10 months ago: PH,

One can be cornered into a 'lie' with the idea of having 'Bible Study' verses having Church... because they are one in the same according to the Bible... (Jesus said, "Where two or three are gathered in My Name, there am I in there midst") ...so we are the "Church" ...the courts definition of Church may be different. I am just saying if the Government passes a law that forbids me to worship in my home... I am going to stand against it too... because that would not only be unconstitutional, but simply wrong, no matter how you legislate it.
10 months ago: Also I hear a lot about the faults of 'organised religion' ...when a guy comes along who doesn't want to get "organised" into goosestep or in bed with the Government... we put him in jail? No one should be force to comply to establishing a state-church, and indeed there is no law for it... yet it doesn't stop levels of gov from imputing other laws to make your life miserable.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
10 months ago: Mr. Salman's interaction regarding his property dates back to 2006, when he was advised by the Zoning Administrator that his property was analogous to a church and required compliance with the Zoning Ordinance.

During 2007, Mr. Salman had interaction with the City regarding his attempts to build on his property. The issue revolves around Mr. Salman's assertion that he is building a detached garage, when the building is actually to function as a church. Mr. Salman builds, despite not having a proper permit. On May 1, 2007, he is cited for, and eventually pleads responsible to building without the required permit. (Pleads responsible 7/18/2007)

In the Fall of 2007, Mr. Salman is notified several times by the City that he needs to obtain the proper permits and approvals before holding church services on his property.

In 2008, Mr. Salman's church, Harvest Christian Fellowship Community Church, is issued a Building Permit to construct a 2,000 square foot private game room accessory to an existing single family residence. The permit states, "Any other occupancy or use (business, commercial, assembly, church, etc.) is expressly prohibited pursuant to the City of Phoenix Building Code and Zoning Ordinances."

During 2009-2010 church services are held on Mr. Salman's property without proper permits and in violation of safety concerns. As a result, Mr. Salman is cited.

On January 4, 2010, Harvest Christian Fellowship Community Church is found responsible for 96 civil code violations. The Court notes, "[T]he State is not saying the Salmans can't run a church or have worship services at the location, but the State is saying that if they do so, they must do it properly and in accord with the building, fire, and zoning codes."

On August 30, 2010, Mr. Salman was found guilty of 67 Class 1 Misdemeanors. The Court stated, "Everyone is entitled under the United States Constitution to worship as they please. But there is a reason for these codes and that is for public safety. And that, I believe, is all that the State is asking is that the Code violations be rectified."

Mr. Salman appealed his convictions. On June 2, 2011, the Maricopa County Superior Court upheld the convictions and stated, "[T]he Defendant was engaged in public or church activities, and further that Defendant's convictions did not violate his Constitutional right to religious freedom."

The Court sentenced Mr. Salman to serve jail time. He was ordered to report to jail on June 18, 2012. The county jail relies on a Department of Public Safety table of criminal codes to confirm the basis for the incarceration when a person self surrenders. The table did not include the particular charge on Mr. Salman's confinement order. Mr. Salman was, therefore, not incarcerated. The table has been corrected.

On June 28, 2012, a Probation Revocation Arraignment was held alleging violations of Mr. Salman's sentence by twice having a gathering in excess of 12 people on his premises while not in compliance with all ordinances and failing to cooperate with the Court's Financial Screening.
10 months ago: Truth, you are splitting hairs. The guy lied. Does not matter that he is doing right in your opinion. He lied on his permit in order to avoid the law that requires a certain level of protection for the humans that attend his meetings. Protection against fire, adverse health and welfare conditions, noise abatement and you name it, he lied so he would not have to provide these things.

If the government attempts to pass a law that forbids you to worship in your home, I will stand by you. But remember, if it passes a law that says you have to have a permit and abide by certain health and welfare conditions to worship in your home with five or ten or 20 or 100 other people, in your home, then you had better abide by that law and not try to use "religious persecution" as your out. I will stand by the law on that one because they are not attempting to prevent you from worshiping, they are attempting to prevent you from possibly harming others just to worship without due diligence toward abiding by the law.
10 months ago: Six,

I like your reasoning... "The guy lied" ...so he should spend 3 years in jail... Mmmm if you could only get that passed through your federal gov, most people would like to see Obama behind bars !:] The laws state that a group doesn't have to incorporate as a Church, then zoning forces them to??? What kind of foggy bureaucratic nonsense is that? Kind of a catch 22 ...BTW have you ever got caught speeding...
10 months ago: ...IRS anyone?
10 months ago: I think that is "our" federal government, not counting you since you are from across the norther border. It is not "mine" or I would have put a lot of it out of it's misery long ago.

All I'm saying is it does not matter that he was supposedly doing a good thing by having religious services on his property. He lied about what the property was being used for in order to avoid the expense of installing proper facilities and whatever is required for repeated gatherings of large quantities of humans. All the rest of the churches in the area have to abide by these laws, so should he.

Three years may seem like a lot of time for such a crime, but how many years do you think the engineers and hotel owners should have received for the balcony/walkway that fell due to overloaded supports because they were not up to code? Walk free you say....

Matters not why he did it, matters that he did.
10 months ago: I am all for the IRS getting their share of all religious donations/earnings. Probably pay off half the national debt just on the Mormon Churches business incomes in Salt Lake City, and that doesn't even count the donation income! And what about the Catholic Churches income!!!! In this country alone it is staggering.
10 months ago: Six,

As to the 'code' some of the things contained in them are being changed in other areas over the same predicaments...

"The City of San Juan Capistrano was hit with a tsunami of letters, phone calls and emails accusing municipal government officials of levying fines for the study of religion...What was the result? ...The Planning Commission met a few days later and formally petitioned the city to change the ordinance, declaring the outdated law "unclear and archaic."
http://www.californiality.com/2011/09/ho...

...so as you can see with your holy building codes, some don't fit... as in this case, there are no dangers to any property owners nor visitors. Sometimes people challenge stupid laws. This is why I also posted...

Rant News: America The "Nation of Criminals"
http://www.rantrave.com/Rant/News-Americ...

...until you are on the wrong side of stupid laws, I guess you won't understand. But until then Christians are open season, so get your 'tag' ...you too might bag one !:]
10 months ago: Truth, I am on the wrong side of stupid laws. I keep too much alcohol in my home, I transport too much at one time due to the extreme distance I have to travel to buy it, I have knives that are longer than legal, pocket knives that is, my vehicles are not perfectly maintained so won't pass certain inspections (tires, glass, exhaust noise), I record movies off the air, music too. And many more. But the laws I break will not effect someone else by harming them or causing a public nuisance.

The excessive quantity of alcohol has been ignored for years due to the pure and simple fact that many people keep a wine cellar and you can not maintain a good wine cellar under the quantity limits established by religious fanatics to curtail alcohol consumption. The transport laws were established to prevent bootlegging. My alcohol is for me, not for resale. The knives are part of a small collection. My windshield is cracked on the lower right corner, the tires are getting bald and I have glasspacks which are loud. no money to fix two of the three. The crack does not limit my visibility, tread less tires have better traction except in wet conditions and my truck sounds good, sounds a lot better than massive amounts of base and no other part of the song and much better than rap.

Matters not that they change the codes after the fact. Be like all the pot smokers who got sent to prison before they made it a misdemeanor, they don't let the off till they serve their time.
10 months ago: Perfect this is a different Rant. I don't think it is fair to other people to go on and on.
Of course, you know the Constituiton. If you dish it out, you have to expect to get it back. Isn't that RR.
PerfectHorizon
PerfectHorizon
Chicago, IL
10 months ago: Well, it actually was relevant to the post (you would know this if you would read posts before responding to them). There are competing issues with this situation.

A person is protected by Arizona's Constitution to practice whatever religion they want. However there are also codes and building laws that must be upheld.
10 months ago: Very nice.
Content Removed by Sunny1
10 months ago: I am aware of building codes, soil conditions, town ordinances, unions, legal entanglements, etc., Perfect. I know what it is to meet business people at 3 am in the morning having business meetings straight from the airport. I was very lucky to have been raised at an early age on the ground floor in a family business.
My dad was an owner, developer, and builder. This goes back generations in my family. I could read a blueprint by the time I was 14.
We all do our own thing. Time moves on, but you can't take away who you are and what you've learned. You pass the importance of learning on to your children because you know how important it is down the line. The result of that has a very positive effect because you never stop learning. People who haven't had those experiences tend to bash and knock other people because they don't know what that is all they can go by is what they know about themselves. I'm not speaking about you.
Your knowledge of the Constitution is commendable and you have the passion and ability. Good for you.
The rest of my family is in high level politics in government since the early 1920s. You would know their name instantaneously. Their families are still involved in this. To each his own.
The only reason I am on RR is because I like the people, talking to them, and sharing.
10 months ago: Truth...Did they mention if the person who led this group was ordained in any particular religion?
10 months ago: Perfect, I understand what you are saying.
Sometimes to use forcefulness isn't exactly the right thing to do like banging on my door and telling me to read pamphlets. They got the wrong person.
I never saw Catholics act aggressive like that. You choose the religion you want. Better to have somethilng, than nothing.
That's great your brother is doing good for the people in Haiti.
We go to Africa and are working their. Anywhere people need help. Religion never comes into it with us. We are only building up a Community. Many missions do help. I know that people can become resentful when it is forced on them. That isn't right.
When did I say who was lying? I don't get that what you said. I don't remember saying that. I do believe if you are going to be a religious leader then you should have credentials. If you don't anyone can start preaching anything they want and can lead people astray Not good.
PerfectHorizon
PerfectHorizon
Chicago, IL
10 months ago: I didn't say you lied.

The man in Arizona that was arrested and fined...He LIED. He claimed he was making his garage into a game room and got a permit to do so...what he was really doing was making a church. He LIED about what he was doing, was given a permit under false pretenses and was then punished. You have said multiple times that you don't think that the Arizona man did anything wrong...so I will ask again: are you saying that LYING is ok?

Religious mission trips are just that...RELIGIOUS. They go and set up churches and try to convert people. It is wrong to do this.

The credentials for being a religious leader are pointless, all they are is a license to brainwash people.

I am happy you got out of that building...perhaps you should have called the police if they were breaking into your apartment and breaking stuff.
10 months ago: Oh!
I know that from the Jonestown incident which I just posted.
I had more than that come into my house who just helped themselves.
Couldn't do anything with the landlord. He would look for a reason to put you out. We managed and moved. Sometimes that is all you have to do to resolve problems like that.
10 months ago: Perfect, I can't find your comment, but the super was the lead person.
These towns nobody cares or looks into anything unless someone complains. Most people are afraid. Only when my apartment was being wrecked. They have keys and they would come in regardless if they gave you notice or not. I'm out of there now. I'm so happy.
If a Land Lord owns a lot of buildings in town, he pays a lot of taxes, so they look the other way.
10 months ago: I remember being taught in grammar school that in the early part of the past Century when people came over from Europe, they were charasmatic and good looking and talked about life and their ideas, so people listened and were drawn to them. They talked about things of importance and gathered together. These people weren't clergy, but through them different religions developed because people listened. I don't see the world as innocent as that anymore.

Truth, Interesting Article on God's Church
http://www.tomorrowsworld.org/booklets/g...

10 months ago: She as I am being referred to being a bit sunshiny and unicorny shows lack of understanding and knowledge of family.
As a mother I stand beside my children and fight for them whenever they have it tough. As a wife, I'm dedicated and loyal and had to go through so much. Marraige is something you work at. I've been lucky. Your life is never your own once you have children. I've had to battle seeing people waste away from disease. I had to watch parents dwindle away physically only to die. I've seen my best friends suffer and there was nothing I could do about it. Not having a job for a long time and having to deal with it but working hard to get back through a devastating experience. Getting sick and hospitalized only thinking of my family while I am in care. I got through it because I'm strong.
Also, even with this I love life. If that makes me sun shiny, I would say I am blessed from God. I know from early on you except life as it comes. No one made any promises that life was going to be easy. Smoke that buddy boy.
10 months ago: There is such a lack of respect here by this one person. I feel very sorry for whoever he is or she is. Another point is a mom or dad has to be happy and be good role models. They don't put burden on their children by going around sour and unhappy.
I see no faith in this one person who is on constant alert to jump on people. When they think no one is agreeing with them, they back off right away and sound a little more reasonable. I see a person torn apart by brainwashing from organizations. I also see a smart person who feels they have to prove it and yell and scream all over the place. Nobody has time for that. We all have our own to deal with. Nobody is going to force me to think like them because at this point in their lives they don't know any better. They should bother with the immature swayable people who go with the wind. So say what you will buddy boy. I know you will find fault with everything. Some people I imagine are raised with wolves.
PerfectHorizon
PerfectHorizon
Chicago, IL
10 months ago: Reading comprehension...yet another aspect of life that escapes you.

I was referring to the outlook on life and death (sunshine and unicorny was a reference to the belief that there is a heaven and the idea of working on getting there).

No yelling and screaming...you are just insanely sensitive and take EVERYTHING personally.

I have never heard of someone feel so sorry for themselves. Nobody forced you to have kids...stop complaining about having to give up your life because of it. Everyone has gone through deaths in the family and suffered that grief. You need to grow up already and stop complaining about your life so much.
10 months ago: Everything is opposed to what is right. You hate woman and children and don't like to hear of great family togetherness. Give me a break.
I don't talk badly to you because I know the truth here.
Content Removed by Sunny1
10 months ago: Politics does not come first in my life. Also, sunshiny, that is a compliment I will take. Also, I have worked day and night so my family could have more and have given without even questioning. I guess that is a bad thing. You'll find something to say negative.
We built a village from scratch for people who were hungry and sick. We brought skill to them and necessities. These people are happy, proud, and joyous and that makes me full of joy. This is the first time they are experiencing this freedom to see that they can be all they can be with a little help. We spent our money and we put the tiresome hands on work into it, Nothing can match that. We don't play around, we work for success. The funny thing about that is that when you go through life happy it is distined that good comes around to you. We have every day new unexpected challenges which we take on because some one needs us. You say your brother has done something good, I think that is amazing. I'm curious to what you have done for the betterment of this world and not rely on your brother's accomplishments thinking it involves you.
I guess I am incoherent. Give me a break.
Woman are on the attack like you here at times, not real men. This attitude of yours is based on competition for attention. I don't need attention. I like people, so I am unicorny? Well, good I love unicorns and fairytales and magic, and culture and travel and family.
I have been attacked by vicious woman here, and I know the difference who is who. Jealousy plays a big part in this person's unyielding dogmatic attitude. I've always been pretty and with good sense, and I know one thing I have is confidence, and you don't. There is complete lack of respect here. I feel badly that no one bothered to take this person under their wing and teach them about life and how to love life without battling it. The Constitution is not something I refer to in the book of life, it's Jesus. The Constitution I live by its laws. I don't think about it and hammer it into people's heads. They don't have time, so no one is putting me in jail. The job of the people is to vote and choose the right leader who will uphold those Consitutional rights for the people.

PerfectHorizon
PerfectHorizon
Chicago, IL
10 months ago: I have already told you many of the things that I have done personally (Habitat for Humanity, Big Brother/Big Sister for example). The problem you have is that you don't seem to be able to wrap your head around the idea that I can do good things for people without believing in Jesus. I don't need a religion to believe in charity...I do it because I am a Human Being...Period.

I think it's great that you helped build a village. I helped rebuild homes in Haiti, it is amazing to help people get back to living in their homes.

You seriously need to relax, this is a debate/discussion site, you need to stop taking everything so personally, and you absolutely need to stop pulling the sexism card on every post.
10 months ago: Please Please stop writing or mentioning me in any way direct or indirect. You are completely negative. Go with your organization and they will pamper you. How can I be sensitive to put up with your unthinkable evaluation of people. It is so perverse. You are so angry. Take it out on your own people. No one else really cares what you think.
I'll win all the time buddy boy.
PerfectHorizon
PerfectHorizon
Chicago, IL
10 months ago: I am not completely negative. YOU are just insanely sensitive and assume that everything I say is about YOU and YOU alone.

Once again, the fact that you are woman is not the reason I don't like you...it is your absurd attitude of self pity and sensitivity.

You are the one lashing out...you are the one that sounds angry.
10 months ago: I just wonder what she thinks she has won?

An award for failure to read and comprehend? An award for insulting comments? An award for what?

PH, never fear, I care, may not always agree but everyone's opinion matters, it is how we as a society come to a consensus. Even Sunny's skewed opinion matters once some sense is made of what her ramblings, be so much better it she would just read what others write..
10 months ago: Stop filling my mail box with your worthless opinions.
You don't know Christianity. Learn something. Go read the Constitution today or something opposed to life or God. That will keep you busy. You don't seem to get affected by all the dead bodies of woman and children that were killed by an insane person. He was not a Christian. Just because he was hiding under that cloak. He was not a Christian. He was an insane criminal.
10 months ago: This guy knows nothing about life or people. He just wants to yell and scream all day. I got better things to do today. I'm out of here. Yell at the wall.
10 months ago: This is getting to be laughable. I told this xxxx case not to write to me but I guess he can't himself. Who wants him to like me. I'm suppose to be hurt by that. That's actually funny.
I don't believe in Gay Marraiges. I am a Christian and I believe in God.
I don't believe in trolls but I believe in unicorns. I don't like trolls because they are jealous and unreasonable. This person seems like the same person who did this before to me under a different name. They want attention and acceptance because everything that is said is a double standard. They go back and forth. Since I am a woman, they hate me. They want to talk to men only. I don't take anything personal. Whoever believes that is looking for an excuse because I can stump on them.
PerfectHorizon
PerfectHorizon
Chicago, IL
10 months ago: You have said multiple times that you aren't going to talk to me anymore...yet you continue to do it...

You don't have to believe in gay marriage, but there is no legal reason for them to be banned.

I don't know what you are talking about from the past, and I don't know what this "you hate me because I'm a woman" crap means, but you have played that card on every person on this site...its just a cop out for when you don't have any ground left to stand on.
10 months ago: On whose post?
Seriously? Not speaking to anyone in particular.
PerfectHorizon
PerfectHorizon
Chicago, IL
10 months ago: You have used the "you don't like me because I'm a woman" response to nearly every person who disagrees with you.
10 months ago: Some people just don't get along with woman.
Jealous
PerfectHorizon
PerfectHorizon
Chicago, IL
10 months ago: Some people don't get along with women. I'm not one of them. I don't get along with ignorant people...I am in no way jealous of you...if you believe that you are more delusional than I thought.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
10 months ago: Perfect and Sunny,

It is a well known fact that men and women process information in different ways, in ways that are almost alien to the other.

In following the exchange between the two of you, I notice that this whole disagreement started from a misdirected comment. I may be mistaken, butI'm under the impression that both Sunny and PH replied to comments thinking thy were being addressed, when actually the comment was directed toward the statement of another member.

Our threading system is not great, with only three levels of depth, so maybe we can avoid this kind of mix-up in the future by putting the intended person's alias at the beginning of your comment.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
10 months ago: Another thing to remember:

A reply to a statement is just that....a reply to a statement. It is not supposed to be intended as a personal attack, or that the person doesn't like or respect you. I have seen polar opposites that find common ground on various subjects, just as I have seen the two of you do the same.

Sunny, for you to pull the "you just can't agree with me because I'm a woman" is just not fair, because this is not a domestic situation where it is sometimes wise for the man to hold his tongue just to keep the peace. This is pretty much everyone for his or her own self, and if you make a statement, be prepared for someone to try to shoot it full of holes if they don't agree. It's nothing personal, it's just the internet.

Perfect,
A little patience goes a long way, and constantly looking for an opportunity to tell someone off only damages your credibility.If someone doesn't see your point, it's your job to either try to help them understand what you are saying, or just let it drop. To tell someone they are an idiot for not being like you is counter productive.
PerfectHorizon
PerfectHorizon
Chicago, IL
10 months ago: Point taken. However: it is difficult to "help her understand" when she has openly admitted that she doesn't read the posts she responds too........
10 months ago: At last a voice of reason. Thanks OTB!
10 months ago: Box, I like the way you expressed your comment. Thanks.
I try to walk away when people are very opinionated and I move on.
I don't take offense. I didn't want to talk anymore.
As far as using being a woman, that's not true and that is what makes me upset at that belief. If I'm referred to as being incoherent this is insinuating that I am dumber than a rock, idiot, sounds to me to be discriminatory against my gender. I love to talk to people and learn from people. I'm interested in the person more than trying to be politically correct. I like when people express themselves and their opinions, and I was interested in Perfect as well as Six as people. They double teamed me.
I've been attacked many times by woman more so than men. Doesn't really phase me either way. You are a gentlemen, Box. Thanks
PerfectHorizon
PerfectHorizon
Chicago, IL
10 months ago: Men can be incoherent and ignorant too...it has nothing to do with you being a woman. You have used that cop out excuse many, many times on this site. I have argued with RSG and TCG hundreds of times...I have accused them of being incoherent and ignorant too...its nothing to do with gender and everything to do with the way you present yourself and your arguments.

As I said...she openly admits to not reading posts she responds to. It is impossible to have a debate with someone who refuses to read and attempt to comprehend what they are responding to.

You are using an opinion based debate site....yet you don't like to talk to people about opinions...makes a lot of sense.
10 months ago: Sunny, so when two different people comment on your post they are "double teaming you"? That indicates that you can't take negative feedback, especially from two different sources.

Maybe you should contemplate how "very opinionated" you are......

In order to learn from others, you will have to consider being more receptive to ideas that are different from your own and that they may be better ones than you have.

As for your incoherence, it has a lot to do with your admitted failure to read what others have written before you comment on it.
10 months ago: Box he won't stop his remarks.
10 months ago: Box, You said:
Sunny, for you to pull the "you just can't agree with me because I'm a woman" is just not fair, because this is not a domestic situation where it is sometimes wise for the man to hold his tongue just to keep the peace.

I don't know where that came from. No one feels that way about me.I said I got the feeling that some people did not like woman by their attitude of constant demeaning remarks. It doesn't stop at all. So what do you expect me to think.
10 months ago: Box
PF said: You are using an opinion based debate site....yet you don't like to talk to people about opinions...makes a lot of sense

(I've been on here a long time and talk to everyone about everything.)
Does this site owned by this person, Perfect? He seems to be boss here.
I don't know. I like to keep the ball rolling with all authors for activity. I have no problem with anyone.
PerfectHorizon
PerfectHorizon
Chicago, IL
10 months ago: And on a regular basis you have, when confronted with evidence that proves you wrong, gone to a default of accusing people of hating women.

Once again, you have left an incoherent message, and worse still you continue to refuse to read what anyone writes before you respond.
10 months ago: From all the back and forth discussions, the gathering shouldn't have been dealt with so harshly.
I strongly believe that the leader of the people should have some kind of credentials to validate their ability to practice their faith and have others join it. Otherwise, people can sway anyone to do what they want. Nazi's can do that easily every day.
We still have to be careful.
They should of given him a chance to clean up the violations, which seem to be an excuse to shut him down.
10 months ago: I'm going to stand by my opinion on this one.
10 months ago: Box, This person has not stopped.
Sunny
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10 months ago: Truth, I found your post interesting. Terrorism is the worse thing we have to be aware of in this day an age. Nothing should go unturned where people gather. It disguises itself in many ways and take root anywhere.
10 months ago: If I went into a Town and wanted to start up some kind of a gathering, the first thing I would do is check to see if I were violating any ordinances.
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Content Removed by Sunny1
10 months ago: Much of the values and ideas contained in our Constitution were brought over with the Europeans to America which they took from their philosophers.
10 months ago: Truth, the guy is ordained.
It looks like the City wants money from him and is looking for every angle to get it.
I give him credit to for standing up.
10 months ago: It still comes down to obeying Town ordinances. Nothing really you can do about it when they change the zoning. He seems to disagree with this.
He should concentrate on his purpose ,which is the Bible Study, if that is in fact what he is set to do.

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