Rant - Oposing Viewpoints

markbyrn

Moderator

33 months ago: It's really a question of definitions for freedom of speech and censorship.

The Glenn Beck revised definition of Freedom of Speech: The freedom to advocate ideas and positions that concur with Beck's ideological position. All other ideas and positions are the equivalent of yelling fire in a crowded theater.

The Glenn Beck definition of censorship: Any speech that disagrees with his ideological position is an attempt to censor. Of course such subversive speech must be censored in of itself because it doesn't meet his definition of free speech.

So now do you understand Glenn Beck's problem?

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Out Of The Box

Moderator

33 months ago: I guess any political talk show host, if not listened to often enough, could come off as psycho. I certainly feel the same way about Keith Olberman, and Al Frankin, my God, the man's a raving lunatic.
That's why I try to reserve judgment until I hear enough, more than say, a "flipping through the channels" worth of someone's opinions to make an educated observation.
I always thought Jon Stuart was a real political tool, until I actually gave him a chance. I still don't agree with his politics, but my opinion of him has mellowed a bit. The Colbert guy, on the other hand, I at first liked, until I gave him too much of a chance, and realized he is a bitter, little man, with little regard for anyone.

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markbyrn

Moderator

33 months ago: Regardless of ideology, I can't listen to the TV or radio political pundits more than a few minutes (often seconds) at a time.

There's no balance; just shoehorning the events of the day into their ideological left or right shoe. I use to like Crossfire on CNN when Buchanan & Kinsley were the adversaries, and there was a comedy radio show with Phil Hendrie doing bits with an amazing range of characters played by himself; he's still on the radio but primarily a pundit now.

Sometimes it's entertaining to listen to Michael Savage when he goes full tilt ballistic or does some erudite bits on on non-political subjects.

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redstateguy

33 months ago: Perfect:
So, you say people who marry goats or rocks should have a voice in government too?
Huh?

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redstateguy

33 months ago: And this rantrave.com website for you to voice your opinion is because of capitalism alone.

Capitalism without government interference is so perfect.

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markbyrn

Moderator

33 months ago: ...So, you say people who marry goats or rocks should have a voice in government too?...

Let's change the question to what if the person worships a rock? Should they have a voice in government? Let's hope your answer doesn't lead to a pot kettle response.

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markbyrn

Moderator

33 months ago: ...because of capitalism alone...

Well if it weren't for the government, there wouldn't of been an Internet for the website to be on.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet

"The origins of the Internet reach back to the 1960s when the United States funded research projects of its military agencies to build robust, fault-tolerant and distributed computer networks. This research and a period of civilian funding of a new U.S. backbone by the National Science Foundation spawned worldwide participation in the development of new networking technologies and led to the commercialization of an international network in the mid 1990s, and resulted in the following popularization of countless applications in virtually every aspect of modern human life. As of 2009, an estimated quarter of Earth's population uses the services of the Internet."

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Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL

33 months ago: First off: I was not criticizing Glenn Beck's opinion, I just happened to see him and he is what inspired this post.

@redstateguy: Yes they should absolutely have a voice, and capitalism without government interference is perfect, unfortunately in the United States we have no such situation.

P.S. Communism is perfect in theory as well.

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Out Of The Box

Moderator

33 months ago: markbyrn

True, the government did start the research into linking computers together over long distances, but the major advances that have led to what we call the internet have occurred since the government released the project to the public.
In my humble opinion, to say that we would not have the internet if not for the government would be the same as saying we would not have cars if not for Henry Ford.

PH
Some unscrupulous people are trying to revive the Fairness Doctrine, through which government can directly influence the content of any TV or radio station's broadcasting.
There are many on the left who support this kind of censorship, to combat what they deem "hate speech", but what they are really against is free speech.

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markbyrn

Moderator

33 months ago: Out of the Box,

Talk about shoehorning history into one's political ideology and no less comedic than somebody believing Gore invented the Internet. Only after the government did the R&D and plowed huge money into building the foundational infrastructure did it become commercially viable. By the way, if it weren't for some egg heads working at a Euro government entity (CERN), we wouldn't be using this website because there wouldn't a World Wide Web. That's not to discount the subsequent advances by commercial enterprise but just like our economic system (a mixed economy - not pure capitalist), don't pretend the latter happens without the former. See:

www.freesoft.org/CIE/Topics/57.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Wide_Web

P.S. Next time you drive on the Interstate or get on a jet to get to the next tea bag party, why don't you thank governments for their existence. You can live in the fantasy world of raw capitalism while your adversaries live in the fantasy utopia of pure socialism.

How about thinking outside the box as your name ironically suggests, and start living in the nuanced reality of a mixed economy; recognizing the symbiotic relationship between government and private enterprise? In fact your hero Reagan was a g-man for 16 years (not including his military service) and he spent a ton of borrowed g-dollars on government programs.

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JAK Gladney
Saint Albans, WV

33 months ago: Beck, like Olbermann, Limbaugh, and others, is an entertainer (though I'd argue that Limbaugh is far more influential w/i the Republican Party than Olbermann is in the Democratic Party). Probably not a good idea to take any of this too seriously.

British conservative Henry Fairlie's criticism of modern conservatism, which I've previously quoted, is apt. People like Beck and Limbaugh go too far in their free-market apologetics, and it's made American conservatism intellectually shallow. There is a dark side to unfettered capitalism, and it should be possible to take note of it without seeming blasphemous.

I'm against reviving the Fairness Doctrine. It would be nice if talk radio were less of an echo chamber, but you can't force diversity of thought where the demand simply doesn't exist, and it clearly doesn't.

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Out Of The Box

Moderator

33 months ago: Markbyrn,
The venom in your diatribe belies your touchy-feely libertarian testimony. I guess you are just another liberal who doesn't like being disagreed with, and lashes out when challenged. I accept that about you, and I don't hold it against you.

I was not saying the government did not have a large hand in the creation of the internet, I was saying the internet would have happened with or without the government, and just might have come in sooner if they hadn't kept it to itself for so long, for "national security reasons."

The government also had a large hand in the development of computers, but it wasn't until free enterprise got hold of them that they became viable for the general public.

You know as well as I do that the interstate system was brought into being as part of our defense infrastructure, and was sold to the general public as a means of expanding the freedom of the people. But as soon as a crisis emerges, watch them shut down the interstate system, and reserve it For Official Use Only. When I see new federal highway projects underway, all I see is viable land being being buried under millions of acres of concrete and blacktop.

And yes, I am grateful to the German government for giving us jet aircraft. Funny how the war effort that everyone hates so much gives us so many benefits.

Military effort inspired benefits covered in this topic so far:

Internet

Interstate highway system

Jet aircraft

Thanks, military!!

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Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL

33 months ago: Clearly I do not want the Fairness Doctrine to come back in any capacity. As I stated in my original post, I believe every voice deserves to be heard (this of course does not include the right to be taken seriously).

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markbyrn

Moderator

33 months ago: Out of the Box,
...The venom in your diatribe belies your touchy-feely libertarian testimony. I guess you are just another liberal who doesn't like being disagreed with, and lashes out when challenged...

Now there's a pot kettle response for ya, and don't you understand the definition of the "pejoratives' that you lay on me. A libertarian believes in the the minimization or even abolition of the state. Isn't that closer to you and Ron Paul?

If you want to call me a liberal when I have both liberal or conservative viewpoints, go ahead; I said I believe in a mixed economy and on that subject, you might also want to thank the government for saving you from Polio - Jonas Salk was employed by a public research University when he came up with the Polio Vaccine.

On the subject of Jets and the German government, you're playing the Reductio ad Hitlerum card. "It is a fallacy of irrelevance where a conclusion is suggested based solely on something or someone's origin rather than its current meaning or context. The fallacy most often assumes the form of "Hitler (or the Nazis) supported X, therefore X must be evil/undesirable/bad,"[1]. For example: "Hitler was a vegetarian, so vegetarianism is wrong." The tactic is often used to derail arguments, as such a comparison tends to distract and to result in angry and less reasoned responses." Indeed!

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Out Of The Box

Moderator

33 months ago: In Beck's defense, he is not your typical conservative mouthpiece that Limbaugh, Hannity, Levin, et al, are.

He has the dubious distinction of being both pro pure capitalism and anti pure capitalism. He is against the bank bailouts, no surprise there, most conservatives outside Washington DC are. He is against big government, he is also against oppressive corporations.

He is the Henry Ford of the talk show world. He has immense research capabilities, teams from colleges, even liberal ones, trying to get the information he seeks, not just the conservative talking points. He was one of Bush's strongest critics when it came to adopting Admiralty Law, TARP, and many other issues he felt were not in our sovereignty's best interests.

He is currently "uncovering" a long standing "plot" to enslave the citizens of the world, led by the world banks, that he says has been underway for fifty or more years. Thus the title he gets by many as a crackpot conspiracy theorist.

more...

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Out Of The Box

Moderator

33 months ago: One thing to his credit: If he is wrong about a subject, or about his predictions, he will publicly announce it, and give the updated facts as they emerge. He has been uncannily correct about a lot of things. He predicted 9/11 several years before it happened. He predicted the current recession, to the month, two years before anyone else said there was a problem. He even gave the reasons for the failure. He is not a terribly smart man, but he, like Henry Ford, listens to those people smarter than he, and has enough sense to pick the most logical answer.

He has also been wrong before, and isn't afraid to laugh at himself when he is wrong. Right now, he is stressed out to the max, seeing what he is seeing, not in government particularly, but in the world as a whole, and he is trying to see the big picture. Honestly, I feel he is on the verge of a mental breakdown. He is now urging his listeners to "carry on if they get to me, and silence me", and unless he is one hell of an actor, he really believes it.

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Out Of The Box

Moderator

33 months ago: Markbyrn,

Did I say jets are bad? Wow, we are on totally different wavelengths. You keep misinterpreting what I say, and wonder, "why?".
I thought you were a libertarian......... Oh, I'm sorry, I keep forgetting to define everything along political party lines. Here is the way I was using it:

libertarian
Noun
a person who believes in freedom of thought and action

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Out Of The Box

Moderator

33 months ago: Maybe you should go bcck and actually read my posts.

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markbyrn

Moderator

33 months ago: Glenn predicted 9-11 eh? Wow, a seer - did he predict the date it happened and did he make his incredible prediction before or after the WTC bombing of 1993? That's like predicting an earthquake and when one inevitably happens, you call yourself a prophet.

You got a link to this prediction of his? Glenn is a political talk head entertainer and I do agree with you on one point: "He has also been wrong before"

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Out Of The Box

Moderator

33 months ago: SS,
Can you say "universal healthcare"?

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markbyrn

Moderator

33 months ago: ..Did I say jets are bad?..

Sigh. I made the accurate point that Jet aircraft were a product of government enterprise and it was you that pulled out the red herring that it was the Nazi controlled German government that did it. The point is - it was "government" that did it and "not private enterprise." You employed the logical fallacy for it's intended effect and I called you on it.

Also, if you're intending strictly generic and not political when you throw them out as pejoratives, are you're never a liberal yourself? That being "favorable to progress or reform." You never believe in progress or reform?

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markbyrn

Moderator

33 months ago: SS,

..if the majority of Americans believed that purse dogs should be treated as children...

Your hypothetical statement isn't absurd unfortunately. Animal rights? Animals are people too? PETA? You get enough people believing in anthropomorphism and yeah, they'll elect some politicos who will fight their cause. The only thing you can do is rationally expose & counter them.

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Out Of The Box

Moderator

33 months ago: Markbyrn,

So does this mean you do not agree that Beck has ever been right? I can't make that assumption, but your statement leads me to believe that every thing he has ever said is either a lie, or just plain wrong. Not that it really matters to me one way or the other what you believe, except for the details in character your answer would reveal.

Unfortunately, I was unable to find a link to Beck's audio concerning an attack on New York. He was not giving dates, or even exact players, but was using the intelligence available for anyone who wanted to see it, to predict terrorist activity.

Actually, the best 9/11 prediction that I have read was by a ranking Chinese expatriate detailing the Chinese plot to bring down the US through means of unconventional warfare, through cyber-terrorism, economic manipulation, and the sme methods employed to bring about the collapse of the Soviet Union.
In his book, he even went as far as to name Osama bin Laden as a pawn, who could be persuaded to have commercial planes flown into the World Trade Center.
I am searching for the book, to give references, but as it has been some years since I first read it, I have misplaced it.

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Out Of The Box

Moderator

33 months ago: "I made the accurate point that Jet aircraft were a product of government enterprise and it was you that pulled out the red herring that it was the Nazi controlled German government that did it."

My point was that jets were a direct result of government's practice of war, so yes generally speaking, the government was behind the development of jets, the internet, and the interstate highways, but more specifically, the military was ultimately responsible.

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markbyrn

Moderator

33 months ago: I never said Beck was never right nor would I say that about any other pundit, left or right. For example, I'm aware that that Beck supports individual gun ownership rights. Since I'm a longtime member of the NRA and believe in the Constitution, I'll give him a tip of my hat on that one. Now if a lib is reading this, do you think they'll call me a liberal like you did?

I also agreed with Keith Olbermann when he lambasted the Obama administration's support of the Bush/Cheney state secrets doctrine and and the so called "sovereign immunity" to insist that courts lack the authority to decide whether the Bush administration broke the law in illegally spying on Americans.

The key is I don't worship at the fountain of pundits and swallow all the ideological Kool-Aid. Look critically and carefully before you drink.

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markbyrn

Moderator

33 months ago: ...but more specifically, the military was ultimately responsible...

Well not for the polio vaccine, but being as I was in the military, I'm right proud to hear you admit that the military "government" enterprise was responsible for many useful technologies.

For example, Nuclear power is a military spin-off and I'm always amazed that while France has nearly 60 nuclear power plants supplying 87% of their electrical energy (plus exporting), why do the green-tards in this country soil their pants over nuclear energy? It certainly has less greenhouse gas associated with it, even less than solar and small hydro-electrics.

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Out Of The Box

Moderator

33 months ago: Thank you for your service. For that, I salute you.

"why do the green-tards in this country soil their pants over nuclear energy?"

The reason they do is because they don't realize that everything, except maybe a mother's love, comes with a price. The crappy little hybrid they drive consume more resources in its creation than they will save over the life of the car. Solar panels require huge amounts of energy to produce, and the process involved is so polluting, it has been banned in the US. I'm going to make some 3 amp panels, from seconds and rejects, just to have, but not to save the planet. Just for economical reasons. I figure 15 panels, with a few big capacitors should run my house just fine. Hydrogen fuels, until they can extract enough hydrogen from water without shutting down the grid, cause more carbon dioxide and methane release than conventional automobiles do.
They are continuing on, for the most part, whining about ruining the planet, while they are just business as usual, waiting for somebody else to come along and fix the problem.
That's another reason Obama got elected so easily. He lied and said he already knew how. Truth is, everything comes with a price. And for right now, the only way to save the planet is to quit using fuel.

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Billyberoo
Cedar Park, TX

33 months ago: Van Jones is a convicted felon, not supposed to be able to clear White House Security check. A former boss of mine could not even do the catering at Hillaries house for an ABC interview because he had a 12 year old Felony fireworks possesion against him. Legal in Texas, and most other states, illegal in New York. Beck is pointing out the fact that there is a felon in the White House, a Commie Felon.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJxmpTMGhU0.

Now that a raving lunatic.

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markbyrn

Moderator

33 months ago: ..Van Jones is a convicted felon..

He's not a convicted felon - liars for jesus? If you're going to attack somebody from a position of 'righteousness', it helps if you tell the truth.

Now to get some balance from the Glenn Beck attacks on Van Jones, I'll refer you to:

http://tinyurl.com/mteron & http://tinyurl.com/mjlmnx

Although Beck is a hypocritical buffoon, I do have to say that Obama exhibited political naivete in appointing Van Jones (even if Jones has moderated politically) as it gives easy ammunition for the birther types to frame Obama as a cryto-communist/radical/muslim, blah blah.

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Billyberoo
Cedar Park, TX

33 months ago: Sorry I mistaked him for Jeff Jones. Maybe both of them should have drank the kool aid with Jim Jones anyway

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Billyberoo
Cedar Park, TX

33 months ago: We all no that their "Color of Change" is RED, communist RED.

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Billyberoo
Cedar Park, TX

33 months ago: I don't see any Austrian School, economists in the White House. They would clearly be an opposing view point. With the advisory team Obama has put together we should start calling DC Obamagrad.

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markbyrn

Moderator

33 months ago: "Eight more Glenn Beck advertisers, including WalMart – the world’s largest retailer – have confirmed to ColorOfChange.org that they pulled their ads from the controversial Fox News Channel broadcaster’s eponymous show. Allergan (maker of Restasis), Ally Bank (a unit of GMAC Financial Services), Best Buy, Broadview Security, CVS, Re-Bath, Travelocity and Wal-Mart join the dozen other companies who previously distanced themselves from Beck. Twenty companies have pulled their ads from Beck’s show in just the last two weeks. The moves come after the Fox News host called President Obama a “racist” who “has a deep-seated hatred for white people” during an appearance on Fox & Friends. Previous companies who pulled their ads include ConAgra, GEICO, Lawyers.com, Men’s Wearhouse, Procter & Gamble, Progressive Insurance, RadioShack, Roche, SC Johnson, Sanofi-Aventis, Sargento, and State Farm Insurance.

“We are heartened to see so many corporate citizens step up in support of our campaign against Glenn Beck,” said James Rucker, executive director of ColorOfChange.org. “Their action sends a clear a message to Glenn Beck: Broadcasters shouldn’t abuse the privilege they enjoy by spewing dangerous and racially charged hate language over the air. No matter their political affiliation, hate language doesn’t belong in our national dialogue.”

How dare those companies support the RED communist boycott of Glenn Beck, even if he's a hypocritical race baiting buffoon!!

That said, I don't support boycotts or censorship, whether it comes from the left or right. We need guys like Beck to make fools of themselves and entertain us with their religiously inspired nuttery.

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Out Of The Box

Moderator

33 months ago: Same goes for the leftist group Single Payer Action instigating a boycott against Whole Foods for CEO John Mackey's remarks about public healthcare.

While he was giving what he thought was a common sense approach to improving the public health care system, apparently some people think he should punished for voicing his opinion.

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markbyrn

Moderator

33 months ago: Out of the Box,

Good catch on Mackey but you have to admit the guy is pretty dense considering the bulk of customers for his Whole "Paycheck" Foods scam are eco-organic liberals.

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Out Of The Box

Moderator

33 months ago: Sometimes, contrary to what libs claim about him, it ain't all about the money.

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Billyberoo
Cedar Park, TX

33 months ago: Of those 8 companies, I don't know if you mentioned Clorox...But Clorox is pulling out of ALL NEWS OPINION SHOWS left and right. I can't find the article right now. But i Know a few of those 8 are getting out of the opinion show game. Color of change does not tell anyone that point.

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Billyberoo
Cedar Park, TX

33 months ago: Here is that article.
http://adage.com/mediaworks/article?article_id=138597

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JAK Gladney
Saint Albans, WV

33 months ago: Glenn Beck is too controversial for Wal-Mart. SCHIP-relying, uncharitable, sweatshop-loving, violent crime magnet, red state Wal-Mart. Righteous boycott or not, that's some statement.

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