START A RANT
SIGN UP / SIGN IN
GET PAID TO POST
FOLLOW ON TWITTER
START A RAVE
MY PROFILE
CONTACT US
ABOUT US
Culture & Lifestyle

Rant

Ok,... then explain evolution!

Posted 23 months ago|38 comments|703 views
Written by
amishking
 Moderator
 Auburn, NY
First of all, I would like to thank everyone who commented on my last post. I am still going through all the comments, making notes, and thinking about what everyone said. I still have a few questions.

If God is all powerful, why did he need evolution? (assuming he is responsible for it) Couldn't he just make everything perfect at once?

How can anyone think a 2000 year old book written by primitive tribesmen can accurately date the earth at 6000 years old, when science tells us it is millions of years old?

Sorry, but I still have questions.

Thanks for reading,
Amishking.

EMAIL|FLAG THIS POST
COMMENTS
THE RONBOT HUNTER
THE RONBOT HUNTER
23 months ago: The key word of all religious beliefs is faith.

Faith that there is a God, faith that there is a heaven and a hell.

Faith is also a belief that we suddenly appeared on earth, from a man and a woman, instead of crawling out of the mud.

Science has no faith, only man has faith in the unprovable mysteries of life.

Faith will also blind your eyes from seeing proof dug out of the earth.

The religious will not want to give credit to a fossil, when its religion claims otherwise.

But when mankind loses his faith, he will also lose his soul.

That is why real religions are in danger from GODLESS cults of greed and sin.

The godless of the world have only faith in money, such as $cientology.

I really don't care how we got here. I care about how we treat each other.

DEFEND THE GOOD AND FIGHT THE BAD.

THE RONBOT HUNTER
ALL RIGHTS RESERVED

http://freedom-school.com/law/prison_tre...

http://freedom-school.com/keating/how-a-...
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
23 months ago: I don't think that the Bible dates the Earth at any given age, but merely the creation of Adam and Eve, somewhere between 8,000 and 12,000 years ago, who were obviously not the the first humanoids on the planet. Thus the two back to back creation stories in Genesis chapters 1 and 2.

Robert Heinlein's "Job, A Comedy of Justice" is a hilarious read, which I would recommend to anyone with spiritual doubt. He addresses many of the same questions you have. Concerning the differences in the accepted scientific evidence and the conventional interpretation of Biblical information, Satan complains,
" ...I did not say that the world was created twenty-three billion years ago; I said that was its age. It was created old. Created with fossils in the ground and craters on the moon, all speaking of great age. Created that way by Yahweh, because it amused Him to do so."
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
23 months ago: Let's assume for the moment that our massive universe with countless billions of stars and planets necessitates a self-existent creator (god if you will) who put it all into motion.

Why should you presume that such a god will be inherently be obsessed with just one planet in that universe and one species on that planet? Yes, if this god was singulary human-centric, evolution would seem to be an unnecessary progression to that end, but only organized religion dresses up this unknowable god to be human-centric.

Is it not the height of arrogance and self-importance to presume that the creator of the universe must be focused on just one tiny speck within that universe (i.e. Earth) and that he must personally kowtow to just one species on that planet?
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
23 months ago: Amish,
It can't. Search your feelings on the issue and decide what is more compelling between evolution and creationism.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
23 months ago: Once again, the Bible never once puts an age on the Earth.
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
23 months ago: ...Once again, the Bible never once puts an age on the Earth...

It doesn't say it but it implies it. According to the Encyclopedia of Creation Science (now that is an oxymoron), Biblical chronology pegs the Earth at almost exactly 6000 years old; the exacting details are here at this link:

http://www.nwcreation.net/biblechrono.ht...

Are you saying your fellow Christians have it all wrong??
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
23 months ago: You already know how I feel on the subject of my fellow Christians' grasp on being "right". Just as some of your fellow atheists have expressed a belief in some form of life after death, we can't all be as smart as you and I.

The time of "creation" has been stated to be anywhere from 6000 to 12,000 years ago, by more sources than one weak link that you picked out of thousands. Don't ask me to pick the one that is right. I don't know, and frankly don't care. I believe that time is the beginning of the existence of Adam and Eve for the Hebrew people, nothing more.
kikki
kikki
23 months ago: What makes the the fact that scientist say something any more accurate. They are only men. What do they know ? You can say who is God, but who are scientists? They are just men, with opinions and thoughts, they develop tests but that does not mean those tests are valid....they are only human. I mean can you imagine, thinking we evolved from apes or whatever, why do we not evolve today? Although there have been times when I have thought some guys definitely came from apes...LOL
23 months ago: Having questions Amish is good.

No one knows for sure how old the earth is. All we have are speculations and guesses. It could be a few thousand years old or millions. That doesn't really make any eternal difference anyway.

As far as evolution, if it were verifiably were true, the fossil record should be littered with countless examples showing many different transitions leading up to the millions of species of these complex creatures. There is not even one example of this. There are many adaptations that take place in nature, but that is not evolution because there is no change in genetic make up.

Charles Darwin in fact thought that cells were very simple and that over time the fossil record would be full of transitional creatures. He was wrong on both counts.

The second Law of thermodynamics states that systems run down. Material things are not eternal. It is well known that, left to themselves, chemical compounds ultimately break apart into simpler materials; they do not ultimately become more complex.

It is therefore plausible that everything was in fact created perfect and has been deteriorating over time.

Remember - evolution, as it is most commonly taught, is an unproven THEORY. Keep it in that perspective and don't let it trip you up in seeking your maker.
23 months ago: King.

In my limited mind......................

We have no clue what G-d is up to. He has a plan, and we have to trust him.

Did you ever think G-d gave us a brain for a reason? Did you ever think he left us clues to use with our brain?

And, he did not make a perfect world. Far from it. He made it difficult for us, ie. earthquakes, tornados, poisonous snakes and spiders, plagues, viruses, drought, famine, disease, etc.

If he made it perfect, it would be easy, and he could learn nothing about each of us. There'd be no reason to give us free will to make our own minds up.

I figure G-d ignited the big bang, and things have been cooling down for a long, long time since.

I figure that's part of G-d's plan for us, and none of us knows what that plan is.

Don't apologize about questions. Unless your Amabo or other self important persons, you're going to always have questions.
23 months ago: "And, he did not make a perfect world. Far from it. He made it difficult for us, ie. earthquakes, tornados, poisonous snakes and spiders, plagues, viruses, drought, famine, disease, etc."

Red, isn't it also possible that things were created "Good" and then an outside force of some type enetered which brings about the maladies that we now see?

Again we don't have all the answeers or all the reasons why but none of us were there in the begining either.

We say that everything must have a cause. But, if we apply this thinking forever into the past, we must accept a logical requirement for one original cause that had no prior cause.

This original cause must contain within itself the source of its own being. Self-existence. When getting back to this original causeless Cause, we have come to God.
23 months ago: Huey:

Provocative!

But that implies G-d lost control, does it not?

But, on the other hand, the Adam and Eve story reflects some sort of alteration.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
23 months ago: Do you mean God? I am not sure what G slash d stands for...
23 months ago: Something is wrong in this world. That does not mean that God has lost control, but for some reason He allows it to happen. Original sin? You decide.

The pain, suffering and injustice in this world causes some to doubt the existence of a benevolent Creator. I can understand that to a degree. Life often times does not seem fair. But the majority of that pain and suffering is caused by us to each other. Why is this allowed? I could guess, but I really, ultimately don't know. Does that negate my faith? Absolutely not.

Because in the end I see enough of the love, joy and beauty that is left over from the original creation to give me hope and I'll never let the negativity of this present darkness cloud my vision or stop me from seeking the One I know to be my Creator.

I'll just let God be God and do my best to love people and make my sojourn here one of significance that hopefully will bless others as well.
23 months ago: Perfect.

I write "G-d" out of respect to Rudi.
Altruist
Altruist
Eugene, OR
23 months ago: You can't possibly go wrong with applying the scientific method to analyze the possibility of evolution as a theory that explains everything with a high probability. Compare that with the probability of our having a trickster as a god who created the earth complete with fossils just to mess with our mind. Occams razor: "entities must not be multiplied beyond necessity" and the conclusion thereof, that the simplest solution is usually the correct one.
Siempre is right there are kazillions of planets out there with bajillions of other species and it if there is a god she wouldn't have chosen a miserable tribe in the desert to be her chosen.
It would be far simpler for an all knowing god to just make a mechanism like evolution to crank out all life on all planets instead of making a complex system of trying to fool people to test their faith. Those fossils were put there when the animals died millions of years ago. All things evolve and continue to evolve and we can test that.
How can we test the insane claims put forth by the folk tales written before science allowed them to make sense of their world.
23 months ago: Al.

Lately, you get to the end of your comment and say something that turns me against your comments.

Jesus' life and death was not an insane folk tale.

And science will ultimately prove G-d's existence anyway.
23 months ago: "if there is a god she wouldn't have chosen a miserable tribe in the desert to be her chosen?"

Why not?
23 months ago: Huey.

You took the words right out of my mouth.
23 months ago: "Those fossils were put there when the animals died millions of years ago. All things evolve and continue to evolve and we can test that. "

Show me the absolute proof that the earth is millions of years old.

Show me the fossil evidence of kazillion of transitional forms.

Show me examples of genetic mutations where the organism are actually improved and not handicapped.

Evolution as it is commonly taught is a theory. But even that makes no eternal difference. Even if such a mechanism were used, it does not negate the existence of God.

There is no such thing as design without a designer. You can look at a building, a wrist watch, a bridge, etc and it is obvious that no explosion created it.

You can look at the universe, the eye, the human skeleton and see the evidence of design. Again, theory not proven fact.

When the scientist can explain to you how non-life became life then feel free to place all your faith in everything they say. Until that time continue to look up and have the hope that there is a Creator who loves you and has a purpose for your life.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
23 months ago: Show me absolute proof that God exists!
23 months ago: Perfect.

Open your eyes son.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
23 months ago: That's your proof? Good job, you proved that you are an idiot...maybe if you opened your eyes you would see that you believe in something made up to control the lower classes of society through fear...it is just make believe
23 months ago: Perfect.

You're not a very happy person, are you?
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
23 months ago: I am actually very happy. I just get unbelievably mad when neo-cons and religious whack jobs try to ruin the country by forcing people to adhere to oppressive views and restricting freedoms because they find them morally questionable (I don't care about your moral views on homosexual marriage, gay people should be legally allowed to marry which in no way forces any church to marry any gay couples).
Altruist
Altruist
Eugene, OR
23 months ago: Sure there can be a god. I accept that. The question is then which religion should I adopt? There are a thousand Christian sects that all tell me if I don't belong to their sect I will go to hell. I don't like being told that I am dammed even though I lead a good life, and I don't like worshiping some poor guy that was tortured to death. I abhor the violence and cruelty of Islam even more, and I think the elephant head guy and the 12 armed hot chick pretty weird too. Buddhism is OK with me because it is more of a philosophy than a dogmatic belief system.
So I settled on the Divine Flying Spaghetti Monster because in that religion they do no harm and are tolerant of others.
Of course we don't know that she looks like a couple of meatballs with a bunch of tentacles, but that is just a symbolic representation of all of the unknown species out there that she created.
She wouldn't choose a little tribe in the desert as the best of her creations because these folk act terribly! They are always doing atrocious stuff to each other especially strangers. I would imagine she would much rather favor a race like the folk in Avatar who are peaceful and kind and respect nature, except they can be violent if pushed too.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
23 months ago: If you come to realization that God and religion were made up to control the lower classes of society through fear you come to the true conclusion that it is all just made up.
23 months ago: So, perfect.

Which class are you?
23 months ago: What about the tomato sauce stains on your new, white, cotton shirt?
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
23 months ago: I don't have any white cotton shirts...though I often do spill tomato sauce on myself (pizza is yummy).

If you want socioeconomic class then that would probably be lower-middle to middle. If you want another description...I am of the class of people that don't want to be oppressed by people who preach about a made up invisible man. I am the class of people that believe in the Constitution and the fact that the United States is secular and that I have the right to not be oppressed by your whack job religious views...just as you have the right to follow those views in your own home...but those views have no impact on social life.
23 months ago: Uh.... I guess we are both Americans though....huh?
23 months ago: I hear you Al. I think denominationalism stinks. It separates rather than brings together. However, I still try to see eye to eye with my brothers and sister and love them. Those that are way off the wall, well i don't have an obligation to hang around everybody.

"worshiping some poor guy that was tortured to death"

Jesus was not murdered or lynched, He laid His life down as a sacrifice. He did it for us to bridge a gap we could not bridge on our own. No belief system that I am aware of has the Creator taking the punishment for His rebellious creation. That is unique.

Study the resurrection. Easter is coming up and it's as good a time as any to check it out again. I have spent years going through the various scenarios of what happened and I seem to always come back to its historicity. Not because that is what I want to believe, but because the evidence dictates it.

As afar as Israel is concerned, I believe they typified the rest of humanity. The Book called them stiff-necked and rebellious. A people in need of a Savior. You've read it. If God can save them, He can save anyone.

You're a good guy Al. You've given me some perspective I have not thought about in a while. It's always good for one to challenge what they believe from time to time in order to see if it's worthy of believing.
Altruist
Altruist
Eugene, OR
23 months ago: Oh I forgot to answer all your questions Huey. Get a subscription to Science Digest.

No one can tell you with absolute certainty, but we can tell you with a high percentage of probability because of the theory of gravity that apples will fall down, and the sun will rise in the East. We can tell you with a high probability the age of the earth, although it is constantly being revised a bit. Science can tell you with a high degree of probability how evolution, global warming, and just about any other thing you want to talk about works. These are not certainties, they are just the best guess that the most educated, intelligent people in the world collectively agree upon, after exhaustive experiments.
You on the other hand would prefer to believe the best guesses of farmers and fishermen from thousands of years ago who are just a tiny step above pushing virgins into volcanoes to get good crops.
23 months ago: I read that stuff all the time. I'm a science buff in case you haven't noticed.

There are still gaping holes in evolutionary theory as it is taught. I can understand why some see it as being true. Some of it is.

However many parts of that theory are falling apart even as we speak. There is even a major push in many colleges and universities to silence anyone who disagrees with even minor points. That tells me something right there.

"You on the other hand would prefer to believe the best guesses of farmers and fishermen"

Huh? Dudage I study all the time and not just the Bible and I teach my kids to do the same. I have a literal library of all kinds of books. I've read and studied the Koran, the Apocrypha, Taoist philosophy, Hinduism, Bushido, Wicca, New Age

I'm getting ready to do an in-depth study of the Hadith and the Tanakh. I'm only familiar with parts of those.

I don't pull my conclusions out of the air and I don't get all my information on science from the Bible. I try to be well rounded and thorough.
23 months ago: Actually, Al, they were tax collectors, persecutors, etc. and the lowest forms of human life.

I choose a religion that has survived for and adapted for 2,000 years to the present.

You know, the more you worship and strive, the more you see.
Altruist
Altruist
Eugene, OR
23 months ago: Red - Who were the tax collectors, persecutors, etc? The folk who wrote the folk tales that comprise the Bible, and who made up God, and religion, to control the lower classes of society through fear, or are you saying that scientists are the lowest forms of life?

You are right your religion didn't just survive for 2000 years it adapted and evolved, and now bears little resemblance to the original, and the original message was lost along the way.
Siempre Solo
Siempre Solo
Auburn, NY
23 months ago: Let's see! How many people here remember seeing a dinosaur at some point during their eons of life here on this earth? So what exactly about those giant bones bother us so much? Are they not bones, dead gone and wrapped in plaster casts, now? I have no problem believing in dinosaur bones because I see them everywhere there is a museum but honestly tell me that this story of evolution was somehow buried along with those same bones so that I could believe it too. It wasn't, it was fabricated, concocted, imagined, etc. by someone just as creative as those from ancient Greece and Rome, The pantheon anybody?

Where as Jesus was an actual man who actually lived whose record of his life is not only preserved in the Bible (That's miraculous enough) but it is also recorded in Gnostic Gospels as well who church fathers tried to hide and in secular records of the time as well. So you see, unlike Evolution which I need a whole lot of faith to believe in, since there is no proof whatsoever to validate it Jesus is a well established historical figure whose existence unlike evolution is incontrovertible.

Where I do choose to exercise faith in Jesus in, is not in his existence but in his kinship to my maker and in his assurance that his father has chosen to call me son too. That he loves me, has forgiven my wrongdoings and that he will heal me from this illness of lawlessness and that all I have to do is believe this to be so. Saint Paul said, and I paraphrase, That if this thing about Jesus being the son of G-d and dying for our sins and rising from the dead for our salvation is not true then we of all people should be the ones to be most pitied but fear not because Jesus is the son of G-d, He did die to pay for our sins and he did rise from the dead to give us eternal life.

But you see that is the difference between science and Faith. Science can tell me something existed just like commonsense and reason can tell me that a rose does smell sweet but faith transforms the sweet smell of that rose into a love letter from the father I've yet to meet!
scotmanster
scotmanster
23 months ago: As I said in your other post evolution is simply a theory like everything else in this life. It has been disproved by many non-mainstream scientists and the whole missing link just shows you how sound that whole idea is.

If evolution theory was not enough we have the scientific community telling us it is through natural selection this world was formed. Can you actually fathom the probability of one us coming from star stuff like Carl Sagan series talks about? Simply put supposedly somehow a millions of meteors crashed into this rock over trillions of years ago. it slowly built up the earth surface after each impact. One of those rocks had the perfect ingredients to form life. Life started from water and some fish decided to grow legs and crawl out of the sea...After he crawled out of the sea he morphed into t-rex...then after winning another bunch of lotteries somehow some millions of years later we have what we have today, quote on quote intelligence. If that is not right out of a sci-fi book then I don't know what is. Aren't we lucky? Sorry for the sarcasm but non-believers think we our crazy for believing in what we believe?

I tossed this up in my mind a many years ago read everything I could on evolution and different natural selection theories but my question was imagine the chances for everything to be so perfectly aligned for us to be sitting on a computer talking to one another? People can not even begin to grasp the full probability for evolution to even occur in the first place. It is like hitting the lottery a infinite amount of times in a fraction of a second. Just honestly think about it..

Post a Comment
Sign in or sign up to post a comment.
All Categories | Arts & Entertainment  |  Culture & Lifestyle  |  Economy  |  Food  |  Health  |  News & Politics  |  Offbeat  |  People  |  Products  |  Science & Technology  |  Sports  |  Travel

Frequently Asked Questions  |  Community Guidelines  |  Editorial Reviews  |  Get Paid to Post  |  Privacy Policy  |  Terms of Use  |  Contact Us  |  Sitemap  |  Report Spam/Abuse

©2012 RantRave