Science & Technology

Rant

Newtonian Law and the Climate Crisis

Posted 37 months ago|59 comments|1,125 views
Written by
Coloranter Raver
Denver, CO
In a way, for those in the scientific community, arguing the science behind global warming is really kind of silly.

It's like arguing Newton's Laws of motion with people.

Newton's first law of motion, "Every object in a state of uniform motion tends to remain in that state of motion unless an external force is applied to it."

To most people, this law defies their common experience.

You want your tricycle to move? You've got to pedal it. You want it to keep moving, you've got to keep pedaling. It does not stay in moving.

Everything with which we interact requires us to put in energy or a working battery to keep it going: remote control cars, go karts, airplanes, automobiles, motor boats, snow mobiles, merry-go-rounds, and so on.

Even adults who've studied physics briefly in high school years later will read this law and respond, "Huh? That's not true. It takes energy to move things." The idea that you could shove a rock in deep space, and it would continue moving with no power source seems utterly impossible and entirely counter intuitive. How can things move without a power supply? And yet, they've seen the classic examples of a hockey puck that can continue to move around the rink far longer than it should be able to given it has no motor, and still it doesn't sink in.

Many, will continue to operate on the notion that keeping something moving requires energy, period. They might open the door a crack to the understanding, but that's all, a crack.

The same is true for the greenhouse effect. The greenhouse effect which I explained in one of my posts from long ago, "The Greenhouse Effect 101" [see external link] is a phenomenon that we've been able to observe working on our planet for over 100 years. The science behind it is as simple as that required to understand why a regular, non-electric, wool blanket keeps a person warm. Does the blanket generate heat? No, the person does. So, the heat stays in closer and keeps the person warmer. The layer of carbon dioxide in our atmosphere achieves the same effect. it acts as a blanket around the earth. If you throw on two blankets, you can keep yourself even warmer. As this layer of carbon dioxide thickens it acts like more and more blankets. The thicker the layer, the less heat that arrives each day from the sun escapes back into the cold of space. This warms our planet. For the previous 600-400 million years, organic plant life has been fixing the carbon dioxide in complex organic molecules. In fact, every carbon atom in every living organism on the face of the earth, used to be free and floating around as carbon dioxide. During that same period of 600-400 million years ago, a massive quantity of organic life lived and died trapping it's carbon molecules in massive form that over the hundreds of millions of years hence were pressed and fused into the organic fuels we now tap from coal to oil to natural gas.

We use these fuels in a chemical reaction that is familiar to any intro Organic Chemistry student and should be for any high school chemistry or biology student if they had an experience science major for an instructor...

organic fuel + oxygen ----> carbon dioxide + water + energy

It's a pretty simple, but powerful chemical reaction. In essence, the original source of the energy produced is that which arrived here on earth hundreds of millions of year ago, captured by the leaf of a plant, used to power via photosynthesis the conversion of carbon dioxide and water into a simply sugar called glucose. That molecule is then use to power the synthesis of all organic molecules used in living things. Wow!

To a self-respecting scientist, it is very simple to comprehend that if you destroy many of the world's photosynthetic engines (primarily forests and sea plants, algae, etc.) while simultaneously ramping up the destruction of the fixed carbon by burning organic fossil fuels, you are going to increase the greenhouse effect on earth. It's really that simple.

As human populations in the last 300 years have sky-rocketed, the demands on the earth's ecosystems to support that increased life and activity have been taxed. If humans planted a tree for everyone they cut, for example, things would be a fraction better, especially if that philosophy were universal in the sense of give and take. Burn a gallon of gas, but grow a plot of garden that removes a similar amount of carbon dioxide from the air – this by the way, is the source of the much belittled carbon footprint concept. Instead, however, humans live the opposite way, not only do we not replace what is taken, we go as far as we can in the other direction. When one considers the sheer number of barrels of oil each day that get burned, and nothing is done to return those now free carbon dioxide molecules to their previous form, the problem is amplified.

There is NOT a person alive who knows the consequences of this or can correctly predict them. We aren't even very good at predicting the weather, how on earth are we supposed to be able to predict the outcome of this one-sided process that releases hundreds of cubic tons a second of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere all over the world?

The worst part, when people talk about a tipping point in our atmosphere, they cannot talk with any authority. For all we know, the tipping point was reached 50 years ago, or 30 or 20 or in the next 5 or 100. We have no idea.

Just like it's very difficult for people to comprehend Newton's First Law of Motion, it's difficult for most people to accept that the concentration of a colorless, odorless, invisible gas is rising in our atmosphere, and blanketing our earth, trapping in heat, and raising the temperature.

Q: Why isn't the temperature rising uniformly all over the planet?
A: Why wasn't the earth completely covered in ice sheets? There are countless dynamics at works in a complex ecosystem.

Q: Why do people say that in some places the temperature is actually decreasing?
A: In some places it may be. Have you ever felt an aerosol can after use? Or a propane tank in use? When you decompress a gas it cools the surrounding. There are any number of reasons why it could be getting cooler in some areas despite the increasing Green House Effect. Complex systems are incredibly complex to predict let alone figure out how to fix.

Q: So, the Green House Effect is real, but is there proof that humans are the cause?
A: Sadly, the proof may only come when it's too late to do anything but build ark ships and search for a new planet. So, no, there's no proof, other than thought experiments that humans are the cause. We know that no other animal that's ever lived on earth, releases carbon dioxide like we do. We could sit down and calculate the amount we release every day. Armed with the figure we could attempt to guess what the consequences of that release would be. In some ways, it's too bad it doesn't kill us right away. It's too bad it's insidious and causing its effect little by little. If people were dying right now every day, it would be easier to get people on board with a solution.

Q: Could people be wrong? Could it be that the Green House Effect will actually be good for the earth and humans if not all animals? For example, these conditions are good for plants, right? They should thrive, making there more food for the animals, etc.
A: Oh definitely. These conditions are great for plants, unless the sea level rise due to the melting of all polar ice and thermal expansion of water to the point that most land plant life is submerged. Land plants usually cannot live submerged. Regardless, if the impact is what most suspect, any period of 'bonus' food and California weather in Maine will be short-lived. The problem with the balance of any system of interacting chemical equations and processes is that nobody can correctly ascertain where the equilibrium in the system will re-establish. If it ends up in a zone that's inhospitable to human life, it won't matter. When you put pressure on a system, it responds in kind. Sometimes that response, however, is unexpected and undesired.

Q: Should I panic?
A: No, but you should get moving. And by moving I mean to reduce your carbon footprint. If every American citizen cut his or her carbon footprint in half, it would have immediate consequences for the better. Now, it might already be too late. It could be that we are already on the downswing toward that equilibrium that will lead to our extinction. In which case, there might be nothing we can do. On the other hand, it is more likely that immediate changes and improvements on our part would have immediate effects.

I've said this before to the conservatives who choose to ignore the fundamental and basic science involved in dire global predictions based on our burning of massive quantities of fossil fuels, who knows, maybe you are right, maybe it is not ever going to have an effect. But, is that a gamble you are willing to take? Are you willing to gamble that if we burn up, as you so richly desire, every last lump of coal, drop of oil, and vapor of natural gas, there will be zero consequences to our planet? Because if you are wrong, there won't be humans on the planet to know one way or the other.

Republicans claim to be the party that protects life? Why do they not care about it once it is born? How are you so high and mighty as to be able to ignore the basic science, attribute all of this hullabaloo to Al Gore (a Democrat, and therefore evil and wrong and self-motivated and fraudulent Nobel Prize winner), and maintain that the green movement is one founded on the principles of destroying the American economy with a carbon tax? Are you really that arrogant as to believe that you know it all, that you couldn't possibly be wrong, and that there are no cracks in your venerable armor that has so protected this country for 200 years? Seriously?

The ironic thing is that this problem/issue is one that shouldn't have anything to do with party lines. It's unclear that if George W. Bush had authorized the Kyoto Treaty, it would be a party issue. Back then, the party were his willing disciples who would have agreed that the earth was flat had he said so. It's entirely possible that had his conservative, Republican government in 2002 enacted the toughest carbon taxes in the history of the nation, we'd be in a very different situation where all citizens of our nation were working together to ensure our survival. Instead, his actions have fractured the science along party lines. But, science doesn't have a party. Photosynthesis doesn't only work in the plants on conservative farms. It isn't only the jet skis of Democrats that move according to Newton's Three Laws of Motion. But people in the United States have been working hard since the Scopes Monkey Trial to put science in a party. They forget that it is only through science we can truly understand our natural world.

The time has come for all people everywhere to put down their gloves, stop fighting, recognize the logic of the science, and work to minimize human impact on the planet. It should not be about profits or margins. It should not be about who is right and who is wrong. It should be about doing the right thing for this planet which we share.
EMAIL|FLAG THIS POST
COMMENTS
37 months ago: Coloranter Raver
You're stuck forever, aren't you?
Please explain to me the presence of tropical snail fossils off frigid Greenland.
Please explain to me why temperatures have been going down (not warmer) for the past decade.
Please explain what the sun is.
The logic of science seems to indicate to me (through my red colored glasses) that our planet's temperature naturally changes, and that it is presumptious of humans to think they have an impact.
I will agree polution is bad, and we must all work together to stop polution.
I will not sit idly by and watch a group of people wreck our economy and destroy our country to fix a pipe dream.
I may lose, but I will go down fighting.
37 months ago: RGS you can't win.

P.S. - Ammonites in Central Texas?
Grand Canyon glaciers...etc...
Colorado
Colorado
Westcliffe, CO
37 months ago: Green house effect, well not really. The earths atmosphere is not in a plastic case. I will agree with you, maybe we are warming, maybe not. We do not know because it is complex. check out Junkscience.com under the global warming part, it really goes into details about atmospheric science. I do not think that co2 is a good thing, but as redstate said, we can't fix pollution if the economy is gone, just like the fact every action has a reaction. Every cap and trade is going to have a reaction and it does not bode well for the US economy.
Coloranter Raver
Coloranter Raver
Denver, CO
37 months ago: RedState: The earth's climate has been in transition for 3 billion years. Fewer than 100,000 years ago, glaciers covered most of North America – you know the once that upon receding carved the great lakes and left behind the largest sources of fresh water on the planet? No one is disputing that the earth's climate has always been changing, are they? I'm certainly not.

The questions are very simple, "Is human activity over the course of the last 2,000 years responsible for changing it more or less than it would have on its own?" and "If so, is it being changed for the good or the bad for life on earth as we know it?"

I think it's just as presumptuous to think we aren't changing it than to think we are! Turnabout is fair play.

You cannot and will not answer this question.

If human beings in a span of 100 years release the equivalent quantity of carbon dioxide that it took literally 100 million years to trap in organic fuel form, what impact will that have?

You know what? I don't know. You could be 100% correct. The earth could be so resilient that it might have zero effect. In which case, any concern is overblown – I object to your persistent use of the word 'hoax' as is some Barnum-Bailey scientist is out there stirring this all up to rob the American tax payer. However, given that the complexity of the gigantic chemical system that is our earth's biosphere, if you will, there are presently no people on earth capable of determining precisely what the impact will be on that overwhelming carbon dioxide release. (cont)
Coloranter Raver
Coloranter Raver
Denver, CO
37 months ago: (cont from above) Just as easily as it could be nothing, it could be catastrophic. Of course, the there is overwhelming scientific evidence that the earth's climate is changing and getting hotter, sea levels are rising due to thermal expansion, and weather patterns are getting erratic. All of these things could be a coincidence to the fact that we are burning hundreds of millions of barrels of oil per day – and by we I mean all of humankind, not just Americans – or they could be related.

I just don't see the down side of playing it safe other than that it will put Texas and Alaskan oil and natural gas on the DO NOT BUY list which will wreak havoc on your economy. It won't be great for the Colorado economy either as we are a significant producer of natural gas. But, you know what? If it's a choice of shuttering those industries in favor of ones that don't risk wiping out all animal life on earth, I'm going to vote that way every time. I'm not so selfish as to be willing to put my own economy or my state's economy over that of the life of every being. I'm sorry, this is where you and I differ at a core level.

Some are willing to gamble with all life on earth, and I am not. I do not perceive the value of my economy as being the penultimate motivating factor in my morality while others do. I do not feel humans were put on earth to be the judge and jury for all life on the planet.
Colorado
Colorado
Westcliffe, CO
37 months ago: Here is my big question. Why would it wipe out all life on earth? Where has that come from? All life. How long will that be from now. Where is the evidence that water rising, will the whole world be under water. Last time I checked there is not enough frozen ice in Antarctica to flood the whole world. I do not know a lot about prediction or seeing into the future, but if I was to gamble, we have a while to fix things before all life on earth dies. And an economy is a long term subject. Long term is not a year, it is more like fifty.
Coloranter Raver
Coloranter Raver
Denver, CO
37 months ago: Hey CO, thanks for the tips. I don't mean any disrespect, but as a bio-chem double major, with an MA, who taught this stuff for 20 years at the senior high school level with college board approval, I know what I'm talking about.

Where do you get off saying, Green House Effect, "well not really"? For all intents and purposes, the earth is a closed system thanks to a thing called gravity which holds the atmosphere in place. If it weren't for that, the gases would dissipate into space. In our planet's ability to receive radiant energy from the sun and radiate it back into space, it is not considered closed to the solar system. But, other than that, in fact, it is.

Carbon dioxide is not a bad thing. Too much of it, so much that it blankets so much of the solar radiation that it heats the earth too much, is a bad thing.

We cannot fix our economy if all life on earth is destroyed. For all anyone knows, catastrophe could happen this summer or next summer or inf 50 years or never. But the claim that we cannot fix our economy if we are on a green agenda is right wing propaganda designed to prevent the destruction of the industries it has propped up too long. The time has come to free ourselves from the stranglehold of foreign and domestic oil which threaten our freedom and control our lives. We must make the switch to solar and wind power as soon as possible for the sake of our sovereignty, our economy, and our livelihood.
Coloranter Raver
Coloranter Raver
Denver, CO
37 months ago: The green movement will create millions of local American jobs, restore our confidence in local manufacturing, empower our nation, reduce our federal deficit, improve national security, and improve our economy all at the same time.
Colorado
Colorado
Westcliffe, CO
37 months ago: Ok, point taken. So we have a global warming problem. Lets talk Wind and Solar. I like them both. But they are small industry right now. Even with a lot of help from the government which I do not think the oil corporations will like. Then, if we have a really short time to act like you say. lets do it. Green can create a lot of jobs. But millions of jobs take capital. So, here is my proposal. Replace all of the nuclear reactors with new ones and build an additional 56 reactors. That will give us around 55% none co2 energy. So France did 54 reactors in 15 years in the 1970's. I think we can do the same. At the same time solar and wind will grow because it is cheaper and cleaner than coal, all of the people in coal industry that are well educated can move to green energy. So now we have a well educated work force(something green energy needs) that can drive solar and the new infrastructure. With less co2 from coal making solar panels will not produce more co2 unlike it is right now with coal power plants. With the growth of both solar and wind we can then improve the technology and create jobs that pay for themselves. So in 15 years we can have 55% nuclear, 15% hydro 25% wind and solar with 5% other. Then we can chip away at the nuclear side with both solar wind and new technologies for the next 35 years. So in 50 years we have no nuclear or coal and do not run the good damn economy into the ground with the green movement. We also avoid pumping more green house gas into the air while doing it. That is what I have been driving at, but you can not jump from coal to solar and wind in a short amount of time other wise. The industry is too small and the economy can not handle any more government debt without failing.
Colorado
Colorado
Westcliffe, CO
37 months ago: Well. There it is again. I do not want Nuclear forever. But we do not even have to mine anything. We have 53,000 tons of nuclear waste that can be recycled. RedState and I would rather have 600 tons a year of nuclear waste than 840 million tons of coal that is burned every year. 600 is not a large number, if we recycled it would be more like 25 tons a year. We do not fear nuclear waste, we fear coal and oil both politically and environmentally. Coloranter, your a science teacher, 300 tons does not equal 840 million tons. If you think that the solar industry is big enough to grow and run on its own you have are very wrong. The plants for solar and wind make most of the money from tax breaks, sounds good right? Well it would if we did not have $58 trillion in Government shortfalls by 2020. Tell me, How is the almighty green movement going to pay for energy with no money? That is the true point I have been trying to make this whole time. Nuclear pays for itself, which then can move to solar paying for itself. But it can not happen over night even if all of the people in the world decided to help. growth takes time.
37 months ago: Ditto and Amen to Colorado.
Coloranter Raver:
You are a great debater and obviously very smart and sincere. You have a whole lot of ground to make up on me because to date, I've been hearing this global warming...,er...climate change...or whatever it is called from the likes of Algore, who to me, over time, seems to be a blithering idiot. I also hear other slobbering fools like Nancy Pelosi, John McCain and Prince Albert or Charles (that buffoon king in waiting) crying about global warming...er.....climate change....or you know what.

Even though you obviously wear those same blue tinted glasses, you obviously do not slober; therefore, you have my attention for a few, fleeting seconds.

(I get very angry watching my country fall apart, and I never mean to be disrepectful to you.)
37 months ago: Siempre Solo:
Here in G-d's country (East Tennessee) we have major wind turbines that, while beautiful, have turned out (for whatever reason) to be a complete waste of money, time and effort.
We also have nuclear power plants (and have for a while) that work just fine.
We also have a bunch of dam dams. (TVA stole farms from families and gave what was left after lakes to developers...that's a different rant.) Other than screwing up perfectly good (world class) trout rivers, they work just fine.
If global warmers....er....climate changers....er... liberals are against C02, what's wrong with nuclear power.
Colorado
Colorado
Westcliffe, CO
37 months ago: Do you know how much energy it takes to make solar panels? The panels are silicon based and use it is the 2nd most common element in the earths crust. It takes a lot of energy to separate it. Your list of things above is interesting. Building Operating, and storing is the are all the same for solar. Much larger. The estimated I got from one of your articles or Coloranters said it would take 49,000 square miles, the size of Arizona, to power the US. Wow, Building, operating and storing panels on 49,000 square miles I think would cost a lot. It would take around 200 plants to totally power the US. I DO NOT think this would be a good idea, but, Yes a lot cheaper and easier and easier than solar. remember the USA has a total of 53,000 tons of nuclear waste Total, not yearly. All of that would fit in a football field 100 yards x 40 x 10 feet high. I can not image that double of that for 100 years of power is that bad. I have already moved more than then that in hay in my lifetime. I have not walked 49,000 square miles.
37 months ago: Coloranter Raver:
Also, in addition to being lectured to by "elites" (who I perceive as intellectually dishonest), I've seen video and pictures of "professors" and "doctors" standing next to cows with giant baggies covering the butts to catch cow farts.
For crying out loud.
I mean, these global warmers....er.... climate changers.... er... liberals CAN'T BE SERIOUS!
37 months ago: Coloranter Raver:
I'll try to answer your question:
"If human beings in a span of 100 years release the equivalent quantity of carbon dioxide that it took literally 100 million years to trap in organic fuel form, what impact will that have?"
Once I quit laughing about elites trying to catch and recycle cow farts, I imagine Mother Nature has the ability to trap or restore the carbon dioxide back where it belongs. It'll be time to get stocks in law mower and weed eater companies.
That is assuming that carbon dioxide is a bad thing. That is a big leap to start with.
But, I am all ears.
37 months ago: Siempre Solo:
If we can find a way to get off of oil (which necessarily means solar is cheaper) and we can tell the Arabs to enjoy the 18th century again, great. I'm all for it. But you have to make it cheaper than oil, so good luck.
Coloranter Raver
Coloranter Raver
Denver, CO
37 months ago: RedStateGuy,
Like your style! I'm hoping based on your comments you don't see me as an 'elite' – though, I got to hand it to the conservative power mongers for managing to turn being well-educated into a bad thing! Anyway, thanks for taking a stab at answering my question. Others on your side won't even consider trying.

I like your answer because it makes a certain sense.

I'd follow up with two questions though...
(a) If the earth is incredibly resilient, and most of us believe it is, still, doesn't it seem logical that it would take the earth, via its 'natural' systems another 100 million years to, "...trap or restore the carbon dioxide back where it belongs." That's how long it took in the first place?
Coloranter Raver
Coloranter Raver
Denver, CO
37 months ago: (b) Your answer doesn't take into account the drastic change in the equilibrium. Normally, when any system is in equilibrium, if one puts a small stress on the system, it will respond to attempt to re-establish the equilibrium in ways that are relatively easy to predict. But, if one puts a huge stress, the system will respond in unexpected and unpredictable ways that may, in fact, destroy the system. Changing the carbon dioxide concentration in the atmosphere so suddenly is a giant stress, and no one knows what how the system will respond to restore equilibrium.

Put another way, imagine your current household. Money comes in money goes out, some goes into savings. The flow of money coming in and going out is constant. The system is in equilibrium. But, if the bread winner loses his/her job, the flow in drastically decreases, which means there's less to flow out. So, a new job is obtained to restore the equilibrium. However, if the wage earner flees the country and doesn't get new job, the creditors come and take everything away. An equilibrium cannot be restored. This is the kind of huge stress that's being put on our biosphere when it comes to the massive and sudden (in the earth's history something that happens in 100 or so years would be extremely sudden) escalation of carbon dioxide gas being released due to the massive, world-wide oxidation of all organic fuels.
Coloranter Raver
Coloranter Raver
Denver, CO
37 months ago: Colorado, I read you arguments with intrigue. Do you know how much money it costs to build a nuclear plant? $5-7 billion x 57. Gee, had GWB and his regime listened to you, they could just about have built a new nuclear plant every month of his presidency for less than the cost of the Iraqi war.

Unfortunately, wouldn't the money be better spent on new solar and wind farms? I cannot speak for the windfarms in Tennessee mentioned by RedStateGuy, but the ones in Wyoming and Colorado are doing so well that Vestas, Inc., the world's biggest manufacturer of wind turbines and blades has since built three factories in Colorado to build turbines and blades. One of the factories which opened in March of 2008 now employs 650 people in Windsor, CO. See this story (http://www.csrwire.com/News/12977.html) of a 131-foot blade that was build for a wind turbine in Minnesota.

I'm sorry, but it is simply not true that wind and solar are in their infancy. Palm Springs has been mostly powered by wind for 20 years. It's also simply not a good idea to spend hundreds of billions building nuclear plants only to have to spend hundreds of billions to decommission them later. Let's just skip that awful step and move on to a far better solution.
Coloranter Raver
Coloranter Raver
Denver, CO
37 months ago: I think the estimate of 49,000 square miles is a bit preposterous. But, if you've ever driven from Denver to LA or Seattle, you'd see a lot of America where there's pretty much nothing. I'm guessing there are well more than 49,000 square miles of land just sitting there waiting to be used.

I know that it take less energy to build a solar farm than a nuclear plant.

37 months ago: Coloranter Raver
You seem likewise to be an exception. I have yet to find any libs that will legitimately engage in dialogue. See, those "elites", whether or not educated, think they know everything, including what is best for the uneducated massess (which is everyone else), and their poop does not stink. A conservative understands some people may have more education than another, or know more than another; but, every single one of us (libs and conservatives) are basically ignorant. G-d made us that way. So libs, 99% of the time, when questioned castigate the messenger and refuse dialogue. (There is still hope for you.)
37 months ago: Coloranter Raver
I'll try to answer your question.
"a) If the earth is incredibly resilient, and most of us believe it is, still, doesn't it seem logical that it would take the earth, via its 'natural' systems another 100 million years to, "...trap or restore the carbon dioxide back where it belongs." That's how long it took in the first place?"
I don't know; however, doesn't mother nature have a mechanism called equilibrium? She'll fix herself. G-d knows what is and was and will be going on.
Plus, who says CO2 is bad?
Libs' problem is their arguments about global warming....er.... climate change...er....uh... whatever you call it, is they (most, not you) are clowns. Algore, Pelosi, Michael Moore, any Hollywood actor, and those libs putting 100 gallon diapers on cows to trap cow farts is hilarious. How can we not be skeptical?
An the pier de resistance is I'll be damned if I'm going to let a bunch of libs ruin my children's future by destroying our economy without fighting back as hard as I can.
(I'm going to work now.)
37 months ago: Siempre Solo
I suggest we only turn Iran, North Korea and parts of Pakistan into asphalt parking lots. Not the whole world.
37 months ago: Siempre Solo
You say: "The argument against solar is primarily about profits and who gets them..."
That's it completely. With capitalism, solar power will be utilized only if someone's risk taking will be rewarded with profit. And not until then. The idiot government, which is nothing but unknowing elite bureaucrats, should not be in the loop.
Period
Billyberoo
Billyberoo
Cedar Park, TX
37 months ago: Al gore, and the rest of the "Green Movement" are trying to use a potential good thing to move us closer to a centrally planned economy. Republicans move us using issues from the right, Democrats use issues from the left, namely Global Warming.

Also, someone commented about all Nuke power plants be built in the state of Texas, and hence all waste be stored there as well (it may have been on another posting, but I'm replying here). That will be no problem to me and plenty of other Texans, but if we keep that energy, as we are free marketers here. We take the risks, we reap the rewards
37 months ago: I agree Billy. I say let's build 50 plants in Texas to supply half of the country. We can even drill deep wells (something Texans know how to do) and drop the waste here in Texas. One catch though. Since we will be taking all of the risk, I think it only fitting that we charge a line/waste/user fee on top of the regular cost for each watt. That will offset the entire cost of electricity for everyone in Texas. Public, private and commercial. Think about it. Set your A/C to 70 degrees! Who cares your not paying for it. Look how many companies would move here for free electricity. Not really free though... just paid by those that don't want a nuke in their backyard.
37 months ago: I forgot to add a 'chicken in every pot' senerio.

Electric cars in every Texas driveway forever.
We can recycle them and make free electric mopeds for every child down the road.
37 months ago: Ranter. Since your a double-major in bio-chem and teached it for twenty years. What happens when you go to WalMart and purchase Pine-O-Pine and mix it with HTH?
Simple chemistry. I'm thinking they both say 'Do not mix with'...

Your statement about a rock in space is funny though. The one about a hockey puck is also amusing.

It's called friction. Which you left out of your equation.

Coloranter Raver
Coloranter Raver
Denver, CO
37 months ago: RSG: Yes, equilibrium! I used to love teaching equilibrium chemistry. Problem is that the route to a new equilibrium could put the earth through climatic/atmospheric changes that preclude the ability for animals to live on earth.

CO2 isn't bad. We exhale it constantly. However, if we are put in a bell jar filled with CO2, we would die.

_____________

When did Global Warming get a party? It's something that affects us all: Liberals, Conservatives, Libertarians, Independents. Is it because Al Gore was a Democrat and the first political champion of the cause? If it has been Ronald Reagan would all conservative and Republicans be on board?

It really concerns me that good or bad ideas get party affiliation unless, of course, they champion the bad idea to the point of taking our nation into needless wars, torture, and retraction of our Constitutional rights – that's where I'd draw the line. Other than that, I don't care which 'party' births and idea. If it's good let's do it.

Coloranter Raver
Coloranter Raver
Denver, CO
37 months ago: CG: I apologize, but I don't know what HTH or Pine-O-Pine. These are brands I've not seen, so I don't know what's in them. The most common problems associated with mixing household cleaning chemicals, however, is that they will release either ammonia or chlorine gas both of which can cause death if inhaled in high concentration.

As for the point you mentioned on friction. The point I was making is that it is counter intuitive to most of us that objects don't actually require an input of energy to keep moving. But, Newton's first law proves this fact. Of course a wall in the path of an object can stop it moving as can parts of it rubbing with the surface below it. My point is that just because something may seem counter-intuitive doesn't mean it's scientifically wrong.
Coloranter Raver
Coloranter Raver
Denver, CO
37 months ago: Let me give you another example...

Three men of precisely the same height are hired to load a flat bed truck with sacks of flour. The height of the bed is such that any of the men holding a sack at stomach height can simply move the sack onto the flat bed without either raising or lowering the sack of flour.

Man A picks up the flour sack and hands it to Man B.
Man B hand the flour to Man C.
Man C places the flour onto the bed.

Which man, by then end of loading 10 sacks of flour has done the most work?

Hopefully, you are tempted to say, "What?" They all did about the same amount of work.

The truth is that according to the calculations of physics, the correct answer Man A by a long shot. You actually are not doing any work on an object when you move it from point A to B at the same relative distance from center of the earth. If you pick up a chair and carry it 30 feet, the only real work you did was in picking it up. It seems counter-intuitive, but that's the case.

So, while it may seem counter-intuitive that temperatures in some places might be decreasing in a planet that's undergoing global warming, but there are sound scientific principles that might explain it.
37 months ago: Actually none did more work, the sacks were at the same height as the truck bed.... but I get the physics since I've moved many a sack of something.

A thought occured to me a few weeks ago and here it is for your mulling over: If a volcano can release 10 times the amount of CO2 in one day than man has released by burning fossil fuels for the last 200 years, why is everyone blaming man on the suspected change in climate that is supposedly happening?

Back in the 70's we were all going to be wearing parkas everyday by now because we were causing an ice-age.
37 months ago: sixholdens.
Amen and Ditto.
Watch. None of the liberals will address your point. If facts do not fit into their template, those facts never existed.
Coloranter Raver
Coloranter Raver
Denver, CO
37 months ago: Actually sixholdens, if you read more carefully, you'll see that I wrote, "Man A picks UP the flour" implying it's on the ground or at a level other than that of the height of the truck bed. So, ACTUALLY Man A is the ONLY ONE doing work on the flour as I wrote.

As for the idea that "...a volcano can release 10 times the amount of CO2 in one day than man has released by burning fossil fuels for 200 years...". Wow, where's your source?

Here's mine, "Human activities release more than 130 times the amount of CO2 emitted by volcanoes--the equivalent of more than 8,000 additional volcanoes like Kilauea (Kilauea emits about 3.3 million tonnes/year)! (Gerlach et. al., 2002)" http://volcanoes.usgs.gov/hazards/gas/index.php

So, RSG, yeah, I'll address 6Holdens's point head on, it shouldn't fit anyone's template because his 'facts' ARE NOT facts.

Coloranter Raver
Coloranter Raver
Denver, CO
37 months ago: Here's some advice for the thread...

You can go to anti-global warming websites all day and all night and fill your brain with complete hogwash made up by people who generally have 1 of 2 motivations:
(a) make money off you – that's right, the more traffic their site gets, the more money they make, they are not motivated to tell the truth, they are motivated to get traffic
(b) misguide you – funded by the oil and gas industry or their passion for it, or by their political view that anything that's supported by the left is evil and wrong – these sites will also distort, mislead, and misrepresent.

I'm guessing, for example, reading the comment above that Sixholdens got the fact cited from just such a web site. The additional comment about an ice age and parkas is a common Glen Beck point. Unfortunately, it pains me to report that when you delve deeply into the science that Mr. Beck and others cite on this point, it's stuff taken wildly out of context and was not a generally accepted point of view at the time. But, of course, that matters little to people who are trying to profit off people's lack of scientific acumen or time to actually get to the truth.
37 months ago: You got me. You did say "Man A picks up", you didn't specify how high and since anytime you pick something up it means you grasp it in your hand......
37 months ago: In all truth, I didn't state it as fact in the sense that I dug it up and calculated it in the manner that those who have much higher educations might. I used my weak little brain and deduced from all I've read and been taught and all the documentaries I've watched that "man" knows so little about the planet and how it works that NO ONE could refute what they do not know as fact, yet
Coloranter Raver cites http://volcanoes.usgs.gov/hazards/gas/index.php

Which reads:

Comparison of CO2 emissions from volcanoes vs. human activities.
Scientists have calculated that volcanoes emit between about 130-230 million tonnes (145-255 million tons) of CO2 into the atmosphere every year (Gerlach, 1999, 1991). This estimate includes both subaerial and submarine volcanoes, about in equal amounts. Emissions of CO2 by human activities, including fossil fuel burning, cement production, and gas flaring, amount to about 27 billion tonnes per year (30 billion tons) [ ( Marland, et al., 2006) - The reference gives the amount of released carbon (C), rather than CO2, through 2003.]. Human activities release more than 130 times the amount of CO2 emitted by volcanoes--the equivalent of more than 8,000 additional volcanoes like Kilauea (Kilauea emits about 3.3 million tonnes/year)! (Gerlach et. al., 2002) End Quote.

No where in this bit of data is the calculations for a super-volcano the size of Yellowstone, which by the way is late in it's timing to explode and will really upset a lot of us when it goes off.
37 months ago: I've flown around Kilauea while the lava was pouring into the ocean; it's a real "weak" example of a volcano, more like a big leak of really nasty hot stuff. Krakatau comes to mind, even Mt St. Helens, estimates of what were released are all we have of the first and the second, just better estimates. Even the quote was an estimate so just rough "fact" in it.

Current data, that obtained in the last 100 years or so is what most of the estimates of Global Warming are based on. We don't have the ability to go back in time and record the temperature and the weather and the concentrations of gases, we can only estimate what it was like. Ice samples and other core drill samples give us a lot of information but they do not tell all, we are still trying to figure out many things that were recorded in ancient text and what caused them.

Years with no summers, years with no rain, years with nothing but rain, these events are less than 1000 years old. Even the warming trend that started in the last century or so that helped fuel the Industrial Age is un-explained by true science, many guesses but no one can absolutely say what caused it.
37 months ago: OUCH..
37 months ago: Been looking around and here's a question for someone in the know. Why are we removing CO2 from underground natural reservoirs when we need to slow down the production and release of CO2?

http://www.ieagreen.org.uk/glossies/naturalreleases.pdf List a lot of information and in particular McElmo Dome in Colorado where CO2 is withdrawn from the ground and sold as bottled gas.

I know I like my sodas to not be flat but let's look at new solutions to our supply chain too!

Just a thought.....
37 months ago: Your killing me sixholdens.

I work for a beverage company. I also have been wondering if carbonated drinks are next on the list. That is too funny.
37 months ago: I am wondering from the above posts...way above...
Nasa.. gets money from the hits
EPA... gets money from the hits
PAN... gets money from the hits

I do understand that National Geographic gets paid from hits... but are they not pro-global warming? I also think they posted something that would lead thinking people to THINK.

Need the links?

Not mine. Theirs.


Need the links?
37 months ago: BTW Ranter. Your basic explanation of why melting ice lowers the level does not hold 'water' with your heated water expansion conclusion. You forgot that the water in all of the oceans would be deeper therefore less likely to have the effect you described. Also you neglected to factor in the added O an Co2 to the warmed water to the expansion theory. Please. Talk facts.
Coloranter Raver
Coloranter Raver
Denver, CO
37 months ago: Sixholdens: You read the source, which is actual scientific data and not the imaginings of some earlier people from an earlier time. Your method of refuting points is to project future disasters, such as the Yellowstone Volcano exploding. But, if you read the material carefully it suggests that human-caused release of carbon dioxide from the burning of fossil fuels is like adding another 8,000 volcanoes to the earth. One super volcano isn't going to top that.

But, even if it did, I don't see your point. Because if the earth is capable of handling a certain amount of excess carbon dioxide in the atmosphere using its potent equlibria systems, it might be able to handle the super volcano. But, if human release has already shifted the equilibria systems too far one way, then a super volcano might not be able to be handled and might, in fact, spell doomsday for us all.
Coloranter Raver
Coloranter Raver
Denver, CO
37 months ago: Ironically, the removal of CO2 from ground sources is a lot easier for companies that sell dry ice. But, absolutely, carbonated beverages are contributing to the carbon dioxide levels in our atmosphere. It's a pittance, however, when compared to that quantity released every day simply by gasoline powered automobiles, coal and gas fired electrical plants, and all the natural gas burning appliances in our nation.

The moment we accept that we are actually releasing a gigantic quantity of carbon dioxide that otherwise would still be in the ground trapped in organic molecules, the sooner we will be able to recognize that while no one can predict the outcome of this experiment in releasing untold quantities of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere, it is likely there will be some consequence. Let's just hope for our sake that it's not our immediate extinction. Stranger things have happened in the history of our blue marble planet. It's the arrogance of some to presume that nothing could or will happen, or that they know nothing will happen because they are unable to understand why anything would happen, or that there is no way that human's contribution to the problem could amount to much, will be our undoing in general. It's kind of similar to our brilliant plan to eradicate all mosquito life from our planet with the global spraying of DDT. It seemed like a great idea at the time. DDT was harmless to people but killed those nasty critter. Unfortunately, the DDT accumulated in the rain water which washed into streams and were subsequently absorbed and concentrated in fish that were then eaten by the American Bald Eagle. Unfortunately, no one could have known that DDT would cause the egg shells of eagles to decrease in thickness causing them to be crushed and broken upon first incubation by parental raptors. This 'great' decision nearly wiped our national symbol out of existence.

Just because we cannot see a problem, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
Coloranter Raver
Coloranter Raver
Denver, CO
37 months ago: CG: Generally speaking, governments sites are not personal blogs or blogs made to look like legitimate sites and therefore are not populated with advertisements for which people derive an income – money from hits.

As for your diatribe on my explanation for the thermal expansion of the oceans, what do you mean talk facts? That's all I was talking. I didn't fail to consider the depth of the ocean. Of course, you realize the ocean is a living mixing body of a very unusual liquid. It's one that actually gets less dense as it cools (that's why ice floats on liquid water which is uncommon – for most substances it's the other way around and the solid sinks in the liquid). So, warm water, being more dense sinks down forcing cooler water up to get heated. This creates convection currents in the ocean. The hotter the atmosphere, the deeper the convection currents will flow. Meanwhile, gases are generally less soluble in warmer water, so this will tend to drive more oxygen and carbon dioxide both of which are soluble in water (carbon dioxide more so than oxygen because carbon dioxide sets up an equilibrium in the water with carbonic acid). So, as the surface water heats up and the depth of the warm water increases, so does the thermal expansion of the water causing it to have a higher volume. Driving out the gases would have little or no effect on the volume, however, due to the fact that most things that are highly soluble are so because they fit in between the molecules. It seems weird, I know, but I used to do a demo for my student where I poured a mystery liquid of 20 mL into a graduate cylinder of water containing 85 mL of water. The students always predicted the cylinder would over flow. In fact, the level of the combined liquid rose only 5 mL.
Coloranter Raver
Coloranter Raver
Denver, CO
37 months ago: Anyway, I am hard pressed to read you write something like "Talk facts" to me. In so saying, you seem to be implying that I'm not talking the facts. I'm sorry, but unlike far too many in this and other threads, I actually do know what I'm talking about when it comes to bio/chem/physics. Do, I have to post my diplomas up for you? Or can you accept that it is not my aim to manipulate the science I know to prove anyone's notions. I'm not FoxNews. I don't edit out scientific fact if it doesn't suit my purpose as you imply. But, therein lies the fundamental problem, you do not believe in science and that is your choice in this free country of ours.

I've just always been very amused by which parts of science people decide to believe. When the doctor says, "You've got to do this or die," suddenly people perk up to the science. Well the international community of scientists is telling us we've got to do something or risk not just death for us, but for all animal life on the planet.

Personally, I cannot imagine being willing to risk the life of every animal, including us, on this planet. If these scientists are wrong, working to decrease our footprint won't do the planet any harm, however if they are right, every moment we live contributing to the problem takes all of us one step closer to oblivion.
Billyberoo
Billyberoo
Cedar Park, TX
37 months ago: Raver answer me this why is it you said you are not Fox News editing facts? MSNBC does as well, but there editing fits your agenda so you perceive them as not editing the facts.
37 months ago: My point, hmmmm, let's say it is to bring a different perspective to the table. One that tries to take more than just the short term cause and effect look at the question. Why? Because that makes more sense to me, to look at the situation from the time scale of hundreds of thousands of years instead of a century or two. Everything I am exposed to concerning this “crisis” deals with short term monitoring as the source of the theory that we are going to cook ourselves and our planet if WE don’t stop releasing CO2 at the rate we presently are.
I don’t doubt that there is a warming trend, and that it could melt the icecaps. What I doubt is that we are the primary cause of it because we burn fossil fuels at such a prodigious rate. I think there is more to the shift in temperature than just man, I think that it is a natural shift and there is nothing we can do to stop or did to start it. Are we adding to it? Possibly, but not at such a rate that can be proven without a doubt. Even the short term temperature numbers are in question due to urban spread causing slight variations in local terrain and sunlight heat retention properties. Basically, so many questions that the data is suspect in most of the database even with extrapolation of the numbers to offset the estimated variation.
37 months ago: How many times in the last 100 million years (or even 1 billion) have the ice caps melted? How many times has the entire North American Continent been covered in ice? I’m not going to look it up, it’s not that critical, what is critical is the knowledge that it has happened many times and we (humans) weren’t doing much more than eating, sleeping and making babies during all but the last few years of it.
My use of a super volcano was to show that there are natural forces that have the capacity to, shall we say go off the charts? We don’t know what the true effects are, we don’t know for how long they will last and we definitely don’t know when they will occur. Also, I don’t think anyone can say that one super volcano won’t surpass 8 or even 10,000 “regular” volcanos, what ever a regular volcano is, we haven’t witnessed a super one yet, and I hope to be long gone when we do as it will be an “Extinction Event”.
37 months ago: Do we need to slow down our fossil fuels use? Sure. Will it stop “Global Warming”, I doubt it, even if we ceased tomorrow and didn’t release a single extra ton for a thousand years. Do we need to drive our economy into the ground with new taxes to force people to cut back? Certainly not, we aren’t the only people on the planet and all it will do is bankrupt millions of families and companies while the rich get richer on the profit made from selling and buying CO2 credits.
When I referenced the underground CO2, I already understood the reason they tap it and use it, more profit due to ease of acquiring the base product. Like a furniture maker who owns his own forest, why buy what you can just go out and get for “free”. Only catch is in this day and age where CO2 has become the “poison” of the decade, suppliers might reconsider their source just for the sake of “saving face” later on.
37 months ago: Coloranter Raver
We may have gotten to the crux of the global warming....er....eh...climate change.....uh...er... whatever you call it debate.
You are unwilling to risk destruction of all life on earth that is (obvious to us) based an irrational illusion, while we are unwilling to destroy the well being and standard of living of our children on an obviously defective pipe dream.

Why don't we all go live in caves in order to prepare for the invasion of Martians?

We (red tinted glass wearers) perceive your global warming....er...eh... climate change..... er ....eh.... whatever you call as sophistry.
37 months ago: Let's not destroy another part of the planet that has been pristine (in some areas) for millions of years, besides that, they won't be Martians.......
sydvega
sydvega
Canada
36 months ago: How many of you guys work for this site?
36 months ago: sydvega, as far as I know only one and he didn't post in this thread. Do you think there might be insurgents on this site?
36 months ago: Not me, I don't even have a job. Retired military and disabled in 05 so I draw two little checks each month and none from here.
36 months ago: http://galileo.phys.virginia.edu/outreach/8thGradeSOL/ConvectionCurrentsFrm.htm

CR, are you saying that the folks in Virginia's education system don't know what they are talking about when it comes to water and how it flows in the oceans?

I thought your density and current explanation was a little off from everything I learned in school. Water is an oddball but only when it changes from liquid to solid, all the rest of the time it acts just like all other fluids and gases. Your explanation is backward.
36 months ago: http://www.ucar.edu/learn/1_1_2_7t.htm

Here is another one just in case you don't believe Virginia. I don't live there either.
36 months ago: http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/education/dynamic/session1/sess1_act2.html

Berkeley ain't no slouch either.

Post a Comment
Sign in or sign up to post a comment.