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Rant

Kids want to grow up like L Ron Hubbard!

Posted 17 months ago|89 comments|1,683 views
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Most great leaders and thinkers, such as Martin Luther King, Mahatma Gandhi, John F Kennedy and Winston Churchill have been the subject of major-release biographical movies.

But, until now, there has not been a definitive biographical movie on perhaps the greatest of them all, L Ron Hubbard.

People all around the world recognize L Ron Hubbard as a great humanitarian, leader and thinker.

Millions of children want to grow up to be just like L Ron Hubbard. These kids would flock to see a movie about their hero.

Millions of adults would love the opportunity to sit in a darkened room and reflect on the grand and exciting story of the hero of the spiritual path, while the silver screen ignites with the famous tale.

So, what's been holding Hollywood back?

Frankly, the story of L Ron Hubbard and his achievements is so grand in its scale, it would be hard to cram into a three hour movie.

But, perhaps the biggest challenge is to attempt to match the screenwriting prowess of Mr Hubbard, himself. L Ron Hubbard is no stranger to Hollywood, as a leading screenwriter and mentor to many of the world's greatest actors.

Another challenge is deciding when to end the narrative, as the legacy of Mr Hubbard continues to grow to massive proportions, dazzling the world in its conquest of madness and criminality.

Casting is another issue. There are many ages of Mr Hubbard that would probably be portrayed, from adventurous child to elder statesman of the science of the mind. One actor who has the grandeur and dignity to portray Mr Hubbard may be John Travolta, the star of Pulp Fiction, Get Shorty and many other blockbuster movies. Sir Ben Kingsley or Sir Anthony Hopkins might also have a chance. Tom Cruise and Will Smith are, naturally, other contenders for roles.

Yes, there are challenges. But - The L Ron Hubbard Story is all about meeting challenges!

So, hold onto your seats and get your popcorn ready!

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COMMENTS
MikeMercer
MikeMercer
Glenn Dale, MD
17 months ago: FFFFUUUUU-----
Are you paid by this website?
Yesterday was not enough for you?
Here is a gift for you from us:
"According to the Daily Express, Tom Cruise is looking to remake Butch Cassidy and the Sundance, starring himself as Sundance and John Travolta as Cassidy. The article says that Cruise got the blessing of Paul Newman, who played Cassidy in the original. A source who is close to Cruise said"
There, now "Brokeback Mountain" will no longer be the gayest cowboy movie ever made.

Oh, and kids wanting to be like LRH means they want to die in a trailer in the desert hiding from the law?
They say towards the end he was type 2 PTS.
TheLegendTomWing
TheLegendTomWing
 Moderator
Havertown, PA
17 months ago: People all around the world recognize L Ron Hubbard as a great humanitarian, leader and thinker. Really?

see for yourself: http://tinyurl.com/cchajj

stupid topic-which-i-shall-not-named...
xenubarb
xenubarb
San Diego, CA
17 months ago: Maybe they should do a movie about his life in the Navy. It's amusing how he lied about his service, failing to anticipate the Freedom of Information Act, where his Navy record reveals him; not as a war hero, but rather an incompetent failure who shelled a Mexican island and ran a two day battle with a magnetic sea bed.

He claimed medals he did not earn, claimed service in theaters he was not present at, and skippered ships that had been decommissioned after WWI, earning him a place on the Stolen Valor website which is dedicated to exposing phony war heros.

Historian Chris Owen wrote an excellent book about Hubbard's true service:
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Cowen/warhero/contents.htm

The material was taken from Hubbard's Naval records, obtained through the FOIA. Most amusing, and exposes Hubbard for the self-important pathological liar that he was.
MikeMercer
MikeMercer
Glenn Dale, MD
17 months ago: His years in the navy are really entertaining. I love the bombing Mexico part.
He also tried for years afterward to get disability checks.
My favorite detail, one that says it all, he was finally discharged in 1944. That was the height of WW2. They were inlisting the mentally retarded at that point, letting guys out of prison to fight. They still did not want Hubbard.
MikeMercer
MikeMercer
Glenn Dale, MD
17 months ago: Well there was one bit of truth accidentally put in the rant!
"as the legacy of Mr Hubbard continues to grow to massive proportions, dazzling the world in its conquest of madness and criminality."
17 months ago: "But, until now, there has not been a definitive biographical movie on perhaps the greatest of them all, L Ron Hubbard."

Because every time the CoS has tried, and they've been forced to stop on the basis that even a cursery look at the documentary evidence shows him for what he was: A convicted fraudster, pathalogical liar and someone who enjoyed doling out misery on all around him. Just ask Gerry Armstrong.
17 months ago: The most published author deserves some recognition. The most translated author deserves some recognition. The most productive (most words published) author deserves some recognition.
Scamentology
Scamentology
Pope Valley, CA
17 months ago: Scientology has 3 audiences

1 - The small number of identifiable scientologists that are allowed to go on the internet and read.
2 - The critics, anonymous and ex scientologists
3 - the public that looks on this as a spectacle and cant look away. (like watching a train wreck)

Why are you the only one out here defending scientology Jack? where are your 8 - 10 million parishoners you claim? Are they all not allowed on the internet? Why hasnt the "pro" scientology stuff like your blog been just swamped with scientologists defending you?

It seems you are all alone on the internet Jack. And the internet doesnt want you here. Even the one person that defended you has changed their minds after a small amount of research.
Scamentology
Scamentology
Pope Valley, CA
17 months ago: I hope you didnt say something too incriminating in session Jack.

Do you even know where your PC folder is? Where will it be when Scientology is forced to disband? What are your crimes Jack? You ask us that all the time (not specifically you but scientology).

Why am I harrassed because I am a critic
Why was I disconnected from my family for 16 years?
Why did I work 80+ hours a week as a child in the sea org
why is my story similar to all the other stories on exscientologykids?

Scientology needs to fix something very badly. Fix it or we will finish fixing it for you (and you wont like the results of that).
17 months ago: LOL Terry. Most published author. Quantity does not equal quality. Just because scientology called any dribble mouthed set of sentences from him a "publication" doesn't mean much to me or anyone else.
17 months ago: This is a joke, right? If Hubbard was recognized as a great humanitarian then there would be movies about him, he would be listed under the greats like you've mentioned, but he's not. The only people who do that are Scientologists. The only people who write positive biographies about Hubbard are Scientologists.

Stop deluding yourself. You can think as highly of Hubbard as you want, but get real and realize most of the world disagrees with you.

Hubbard didn't do a charitable or philanthropic thing in his life. And it is a grave insult to Gandhi and King, who were /assassinated/ (not to mention Kennedy), for their beliefs and actions. Hubbard died while hiding from the law.

This is so horrible, so over the top it has to be a joke.
17 months ago: I would like to see L. Ron Hubbard's great grandson Jamie Kennedy playing the role of Hubbard, should there ever be made a movie about him.
There is a video on YouTube of him participating in what seems to be a poetry slam in Clearwater.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZ9uJRBBSQE
17 months ago: "The most published author deserves some recognition. The most translated author deserves some recognition. The most productive (most words published) author deserves some recognition."

http://www.trivia-library.com/c/20-most-prolific-authors-and-writers-in-literary-history.htm

I don't see L. Ron Hubbard anywhere on that list.
17 months ago: @EngramsRUs,

I think that was the whole point of this article. Lrn2sarcasm.
17 months ago: This guy has them beat.
http://www.goodmagazine.com/blog/planets_most_published_author

Now as for Hubtard, a lot of his "published" works are just a few paragraphs long. The scientologists had them copyrighted in tiny snipped to try to prevent fair use quoting of them. Sadly for them the internet came along and now anything said there is archived forever somewhere. So the best they can make out of this is to try fooling people into thinking he is the most widely published author ever. Apparently they even got Guinness to go along by feeding them a bunch of BS statistics, though how long before they correct their error remains to be seen.
17 months ago: AnonymousX,

Yes, I realize now that this is a troll. Either way I was getting a laugh out of it. And yes I know and can use sarcasm, but Scientology is a touchy subject with me so I get worked up sometimes and can miss it.
An Observer
An Observer
Garrettsville, OH
17 months ago: How can kids possibly know if they want to grow up like L. Ron Hubbard, when his history is so disputed, controversial and convoluted? No one even knows who the real L. Ron Hubbard was. Do kids really want to grow up to be a man who takes credit for a concept called Scientology which was developed by Dr. A Nordenholz and published by Dr. A Nordenholz in 1934?

http://scientologie.org/english.htm

I certainly would not my children to aspire being a person who takes credit for the work of others
16 months ago: Content Removed by RantRave Admin
16 months ago: "...Will Smith are, naturally, other contenders for roles."
WTF, isn't Will Smith black and LRH white?
An Observer
An Observer
Garrettsville, OH
16 months ago: Could you imagine how much of a failure of a parent you would feel like, if your child came up to you and said he wanted to be just like a man who allowed his wife to go to prison while he hid like a coward on the run? That would be a tough pill to swallow, you'd have to feel like a total failure at parenting

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Sue_Hubbard
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Snow_White
16 months ago: The most published author deserves some recognition. The most translated author deserves some recognition. The most productive (most words published) author deserves some recognition
ā€œThe most published author deserves some recognition.ā€
Wrong, it’s Agatha Christie, only the Bible which has been around for 1,950 years has done better than her. Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agatha_Christie
ā€œThe most translated author deserves some recognition.ā€
**** me, it is LRH. However, the most translated book would be the Bible so suck it.
ā€œThe most productive (most words published) author deserves some recognition.ā€
Wrong, it’s Professor Philip Parker with over 250,000. Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/14/business/media/14link.html
Learn 2 fact check terryeo. Someone sure has been spoon fed by the cult.
Frederick
Frederick
Canada
16 months ago: Travolta sans wig would make a great L.Ron. He wouldn't even have to gain weight. I'd go see it, provided it was accurate.
DeanFox
DeanFox
England
16 months ago: L Ron Hubbard was quite a guy. Not necessarily the guy he claimed to be but at the end of the day he did start a cult that kept him very well looked after until the end of his days. He held the adoration of hundreds of devotees who would sacrifice anything for him.

OK so he had his faults and he cared only about himself but few could do what he did, starting a self perpetuating cult whose machinery his still working 20+ years after his death despite the mismanagement of the little one, Miscavige.
16 months ago: There is already a video in the Scientology website
http://www.scientology.org
Ron Hubbard was a great man. Just read the books he wrote and find out all the discoveries he made on life and man.


16 months ago: Ron was a smart guy. He put good sense into an area that has lacked good sense for a long time. He addressed the mind and the spirit. His writings are able to make these areas real for many people. And this is both unusual and remarkable.
16 months ago: "He put good sense into an area that has lacked good sense for a long time." What area is that, the area of making s**t up and stealing other peoples ideas. If so then yes, he did a great job at it.

"He addressed the mind and the spirit." Oh wow, like no one has ever done that before. Not those Christians, Catholics, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Mormans, Native American tribes, and just about every single culture and group of people who have exisisted since the begininning of time.

"His writings are able to make these areas real for many people." What, only the people willing to spend 300K+ to learn the truth of the religion, infiltrate a government that stands for truth and democracy, banish people from their ranks who disagreed with them and never speak to them agian, and use slave labor in their gulag camps? Yes, LRH has made the areas of pain, misery, suffering, intolerance, and forced labors clear and real for many people. Also deciet, he made that true too.

"And this is both unusual and remarkable." I agree. LRH was able to peddle his knock-off star trek relgion as something legit and trick many people into it. Usually scam artists do not start such successful cults. Kudos for making the world a worse place than you found it.
An Observer
An Observer
Garrettsville, OH
16 months ago: Hubbard did put together several good ideas and brought them to a somewhat main stream audience,however it would have been good if he credited the people who actually came up with these ideas, instead of claiming them as his own.
Greg73
Greg73
Canada
16 months ago: Jack, as a Scientologist, I ask, why are you bothering to do this? Writing these articles is simply asking for the reactive mind to grow stronger. You get what you put your attention on. I agree that these critical bigots are frustrating, but let us leave church matters up to the church and OSA to handle. Most of these bleepards here are attacking with things that can not be defended on-line but only in a court of law. And besides, we need not bother defending ourselves from lies, they will only create more lies. Lets let these idiots be idiots and time will show that Scientology is innocent.
Let us just be Scientologists and forget these guys. Some will soon see that this crap on the net is fiction. The stories that come up on the net from these ex-scientologists are meant to create hatred towards us, not justice. Justice is in court, internet is for hatred and rumours.
16 months ago: I agree, justice is in court, good luck with all the cases upcoming, because you will sure as hell need it.
An Observer
An Observer
Garrettsville, OH
16 months ago: I'm going to have to go ahead and agree with Greg claiming he's only on the internet for the hatred and rumors.

That was one hate filled post full of rumors Greg ... Bravo Greg nice job.
Scamentology
Scamentology
Pope Valley, CA
16 months ago: "internet is for hatred and rumours. "

This is the thinking of a cult. The internet exposes all the lies and makes it impossible to face for those that refuse to admit they are wrong.

Face your demons - Thats what the internet is to you.
An Observer
An Observer
Garrettsville, OH
16 months ago: I found it rather ironic that Greg did not even realize his own post was full of hatred and rumors as he was making his blind generalization of the entire internet, but I guess what he meant by "hatred and rumors" was only "hatred and rumors" against Scientology. It's actually kind of sad to lock yourself into such a tight compartment, when Scientology claims to be about freedom.
16 months ago: "internet is for hatred and rumours. "

O RLY?

www.dailypuppy.com
www.cutelittlekittens.com
www.peacecorps.gov
www.dalailama.com
www.freehugscampaign.org

Shall I go on?
16 months ago: "The most published author deserves some recognition. The most translated author deserves some recognition. The most productive (most words published) author deserves some recognition."

Terryeo, Shakespeare already has a TON of films and tv programs about him. Does there really need to be more?
16 months ago: Scamentology, you say "Why are you the only one out here defending scientology Jack? where are your 8 - 10 million parishoners you claim? Are they all not allowed on the internet?"

I'm not defending anything, I'm attacking ignorance.

Anyone who wants to use the internet can use it.
16 months ago: Greg,there is no way some entheta on the internet is going to frustrate or introvert a Scientologist who has the tech to confront, communicate, and shatter suppression. The Church has its attention on clearing the planet, as always.
16 months ago: If Scientology can shatter suppression, then why are there still protests again it?
An Observer
An Observer
Garrettsville, OH
16 months ago: I doubt Jack alone will be able accomplish what he sets out to do, but I do give him credit for at least confronting it which is more than can be said for the most Scientologist I have encountered. And I also give him credit for not falling for this 'entheta' crap. He's willing to at least allow himself to see there are other viewpoints that differ from his, which is pretty much all someone like myself can ask for. As much as I disagree with his beliefs he is free to think as he chooses. He is also certainly free to practice his religion as much as I feel it is a scam. If he has researched the unfiltered information about Scientology that is available on the internet and chooses Scientology then who am I to stop him. In fact I wish him well in his endeavors, and if he changes his mind I also wish him well in his endeavors. I am only concerned with the people who have not been allowed to research the unfiltered information on the subject. My battle "and I uses the term battle very loosely" is with censorship not with Jack or Scientology. Now that being said if he posts something I disagree with, I will certainly let him know.
16 months ago: Kathleen G. A protest is not necessarily suppression. Counter-opinion is not necessarily suppression. Publishing your own views, or writing your opinion on the views of others, is not suppression. Here and there, once in a while, you might meet someone who considers their opinion is all there is. And that no other opinion should exist. When such a person expresses his opinion, he intends to suppress all other opinions. But this is rare, most people recognize the right of other people's opinion.
16 months ago: This is almost too easy...

"A protest is not necessarily suppression. Counter-opinion is not necessarily suppression. Publishing your own views, or writing your opinion on the views of others, is not suppression."

Wikipedia citation from Hubbard, in Modern Management Technology Defined, p. 509

A suppressive person is one who has been responsible for "suppressive acts", defined by Hubbard as being "the overt or covert actions or omissions knowingly and willfully undertaken to suppress, reduce, prevent or destroy case gains, and/or the influence of Scn on activities, and/or the continued Scn success and actions on the part of organizations actions and Scientologists."

This can also be applied to whole groups.

Any attempt to do anything except Scientologys ovatures can and often in the past results in your being deemed an SP. There is no middle ground, you're either with them, or you're an SP.

"Here and there, once in a while, you might meet someone who considers their opinion is all there is. And that no other opinion should exist."

You mean like Scientology does whenever it is invited to do documentarys?

"But this is rare,most people recognize the right of other people's opinion."

Shame Scientology isn't in that majority, eh?
An Observer
An Observer
Garrettsville, OH
16 months ago: Terryeo, if what you are saying is true, why would the organization of Scientology go through such painstaking measures to shelter it's members from any views on the subject of L. Ron Hubbard which differ from theirs?

And if what you are saying is true, why has Scientology spent such vast sums of money to corner the market on surveillance equipment, attorneys, security personnel, and even private investigators? It's clear to see that L. Ron Hubbard's paranoia is very much alive and well in the organization of Scientology. L. Ron Hubbard's paranoia has to be alive and well since he incorporated it into his scriptures. Even as early as 1968 his paranoia was shaping the direction of Scientology, if you listen to Ron's Journal 1968, you can clearly see this is not the ranting of a mentally healthy individual.

You can listen to Ron's Journal 1968 in it's entirety here, if you are interested

http://www620.megaupload.com/files/089000bb4c9900fe04ed6992ab8dcf99/1968.mp3



16 months ago: I don't agree with your opinion, observer. But certainly you are aware of some the efforts critics have expended. Of course any institution wants to protect yourself from what appears to be anthrax in the mail, from shots fired at their building, and similar. No, the Church gets far more attacks than is reasonable. And, to survive, must do something.
Scamentology
Scamentology
Pope Valley, CA
16 months ago: First - I want to thank you for having this open discussion Jack and terryeo

Jack "Anyone who wants to use the internet can use it."

This is true but how many of you are actually on the internet browsing freely. If you had 8-10 million people then you should be able to make a couple of calls or go to a message board and post that there is a misconception of scio and that you need help. this board would be flooded with scientologists. where are they? are you sparing them the "entheta"? I put that in quotes because its not part of the english language.

This is all people want - an open dialog. If every scientologist was allowed to talk to us.
xenubarb
xenubarb
San Diego, CA
16 months ago: The problem is, Scientology has a history of sending itself bomb threats and now, white powder that turned out to be, in part, wheat germ.

Who the hell has wheat germ? Health food nuts.
Who are health food nuts?
Scientologists.

It is more likely that Scientology has been stepping in to do what anonymous won't...bomb threats, death threats, white powder. Stop hitting yourself! Stop hitting yourself! Stop hitting yourself!

All the violence that has occurred at protests has been initiated by Scientologists. Every single incident.
Makes you wonder...
An Observer
An Observer
Garrettsville, OH
16 months ago: Terryeo,

Yes I understand some of the critics fanatical to say the least and I am not here to defend their actions, but your cause takes a huge hit when your church sends out a DVD illustrating bomb threats it has received in a higher resolution format that the actual threat they are claiming to have received.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5ENXIMUxgM

Now I'm not saying all of the threats Scientology has received are false or created by Scientology to make your critics look like terrorists, but it is pretty obvious this one was.

There are good or bad people on both sides, but if you step back and take a look at the big picture, members of Scientology's management have used illegal tactics on the internet to silence their critics as early as 1995 and even to silence people who had no idea what Scientology even was, but made the unfortunate mistake of reading critical information about Scientology and asking questions regarding it.

The vast majority of people who have a problem with Scientology do not have a problem with the religion, they have a problem with the tactics your management uses to silence people who do not agree with them. If people were against the religion itself, Scientology based organizations in the 'Freezone' would be experiencing the same backlash as the official Church of Scientology does itself, but this is far from the case.

And of course an organization should protect itself from perceived danger, but this culture of paranoia within Scientology predates the internet by decades.

My observations have been that Scientology creates it's own enemies, just as governments do, it's much easier to get people collectively to rally behind a cause when there is an enemy to fight regardless if the cause is just. Now I'm not saying your cause is not just, I'm saying that it really doesn't matter too much as long as there is a precieved enemy to fight.
16 months ago: YOU SUCK ****ING NUTTS GO DIE FROM AIDS.

This logic is inrefutable
Greg73
Greg73
Canada
16 months ago: Scientology is all for Freedom of Speach, but not freedom to slander. Copyrights are a legal right as well, and must be protected, not for Scientology necessarily, but for musicians, artists, writers, and many others too. Confidentiality is also vital, there is a freedom to privacy as well. I am all for freedom of information, but when it violates other rights of individuals, then it is not okay. This is also the way the law sees it.
16 months ago: "Scientology is all for Freedom of Speach"

Unless that speech dissagrees with scientology, or informs the public of the very real crimes committed by the CoS.

"but not freedom to slander."

On the contrary, Scientology has a long history of lying about it's critics and being stomped on in court for doing so too.

"Copyrights are a legal right as well, and must be protected, not for Scientology necessarily,"

This for me was and is the single biggest bugbear for me. A religion cannot hold a copyright, at least in the US.

"Confidentiality is also vital, there is a freedom to privacy"

That would be a RIGHT to privacy. Confidentiality, you mean like having a standing right to expect that your auditing folders are not gone through with a fine toothed comb should you speak out about abuses within the CoS, you know as per policy?

"I am all for freedom of information, but when it violates other rights of individuals, then it is not okay. This is also the way the law sees it."

I quite agree.
An Observer
An Observer
Garrettsville, OH
16 months ago: Greg,

You totally lost me, I'm not sure what copyrights of musicians, artists and writers has to do with anything we are discussing here, other than L. Ron Hubbard plagorizing the work of Dr. A Nordenholz and claiming it as his own and profiting from it

http://scientologie.org/english.htm

You seem to be fixated with laws, justice, courts, est. What exactly is it that you trying to say? Do you think we are breaking laws by having this conversation? Or are you actually messed up enough to really believe that anyone who criticizes Scientology is a criminal?

And as far as your claim of confidentiality being vital, maybe you should take that issue up with the management of Scientology who hires private investigators to dig up as much dirt as possible on anyone who criticizes their organization and then creates leaflets containing the information to hand out to their neighbors and employers.
Greg73
Greg73
Canada
16 months ago: Hi 'An Observer'
I haven't a problem with a discussion of Scientology here at all really. What is disconcerning however are the forms of attack, and inability of the critic to acknowledge evidence that we have to support Scientology.
www.scientologymyths.info and scientologytoday.org are good sites that get into some of the topics being discussed here and on other sites recently.
You want to know why the millions of Scientologists do not get on the net and protest the protesters? It isn't because they aren't allowed, it is because it is wasted time. Scientologists are concerned with helping others, not fighting or creating antagonism. I apoligize if I have in the past with any of you by the way. I really don't mean to hurt or offend.
I am only here because I wished to understand both sides to the story. I have, and I am satisfied that the critics try to stick false accusations to the church which haven't held up in courts of law.
Many claim we are not a religious entity, yet there are hundreds of places on the net the show Scientology is in fact a religion, from reputable sources.
Some critics try and stick old, cancelled policy to show we are committing illegal acts. But the policy is cancelled. It also says in the Scientology Ethics book that breaking the law is forbidden.
Many critics claim they are not against the religion, and I thank them for that if they are sincere, but many are not respecting our faith.
If any are really interested in the truth, check out the website I posted above, and you will see that many of the points that critics make are based on old lies, simply put.
16 months ago: "and inability of the critic to acknowledge evidence that we have to support Scientology."

I'm sorry, evidence? When?

"www.scientologymyths.info and scientologytoday.org are"

propoganda sites with nothing to say.

Critics on this site have backed up their arguments with evidence, both from policy letters, court documents and first hand accounts.

Scientologist have backed up their arguments with evasion, lies, libel and fluff.

"You want to know why the millions of Scientologists do not get on the net and protest the protesters?"

Because there aren't more then 200,000 worldwide.

"I am satisfied that the critics try to stick false accusations to the church which haven't held up in courts of law."

Clearly your reading skills are sorely lacking. CoS was found guilty of among other things: The single largest case of domestic espionage in US history. Is the ONLY religious group in all of Canada to have a criminal record guilty of multiple counts of fraud, slander, blackmail, framing people... It's all out there to read.
16 months ago:
"Many claim we are not a religious entity, yet there are hundreds of places on the net the show Scientology is in fact a religion, from reputable sources."

Name one that isn't either scientology themselves or a frontgroup. BTW sites that call it "Church" of scientology don't count - because by use of quotation marks, it's clear that the authors of the pieces don't consider them to be a church..

"Some critics try and stick old, cancelled policy to show we are committing illegal acts. But the policy is cancelled."

You mean the fair game policy, the one which was argued by the CoS as being a protected religious doctrine in US courts as recently as 1994? That one? The one that every person online can access IN FULL that states clearly that the "cancelation" is in name only?

"If any are really interested in the truth, check out the website I posted above, and you will see that many of the points that critics make are based on old lies, simply put."

Propoganda pieces don't really work when the full text of the policies and their supposed cancelations are available online.
Greg73
Greg73
Canada
16 months ago: Shalashar Dekeres
Supporting Scientology as a religion. I am sure there are more.

http://www.ucalgary.ca/~nurelweb/papers/irving/scient.html
http://www.religiousapartheid.org/critiques/ENG/Kelley/rsv1.htm

http://www.neuereligion.de/ENG/Black/index.htm

http://www.neuereligion.de/ENG/Pentikainen/

http://www.religiousapartheid.org/critiques/ENG/Kelley/index.htm

http://www.religiousapartheid.org/critiques/ENG/ThreeExpertises/ba7.htm

http://www.emanationinc.com/oost/

http://www.neuereligion.de/ENG/bouma/index.htm

http://neuereligion.de/ENG/Berglie/index.htm

http://www.neuereligion.de/ENG/Richardson/index.htm

http://www.neuereligion.de/ENG/hill/index.htm

http://www.emanationinc.com/Chidestr/index.htm

http://www.neuereligion.de/ENG/Sivertsev/index.htm

http://www.neuereligion.de/ENG/Beckford/index.htm

http://www.neuereligion.de/ENG/melton/page01.htm

Thanks for asking
Greg73
Greg73
Canada
16 months ago: As for understanding Scientology policy. There are seven volumes of Scientology policy. Many series of policy must be understood together in order get a full duplication of meaning. The book The Way to Happiness is a good source for understanding Scientology moral values, as well as the book 'An Introduction to Scientology'.
Fair Game policy has been cancelled for more than 30 years.
An Observer
An Observer
Garrettsville, OH
16 months ago: Greg73

Fair enough, I do not dispute that Scientology being a religion in the United States. Our country was founded on the basis of religious freedom, I could not possible defend the rights protected in the constitution without defending Scientology's right to exist as a religion, my problem is not with Scientology or Sceintologists themselves, my problem is with the management of the organization and some of the tactics I have seen them use to obtain their objectives. I have seen people's ISP accounts shutdown by individuals connected to Scientology management, this has been confirmed by people who have left the Church, I know you make not believe this but they would not be able o confirm certain details if they were not involved, I also have a problem with the hard sales tactics which I have also seen first hand. Acquiring money is a major goal of Scientology, this can not be denied. Of course this can be debated by services provided and their relative value, and again I have no problem with people paying for services they desire to purchase, it's the tactics of the sales force that I question.
16 months ago: Without going tl;dr

You have the two critiques plus three of the neuereligion links that actualy have anything approaching solid link, the others either 404 or are simple links back to scientology websites.

Bravo, you backed up your argument, to a point. Next time check your links instead of going through google directory.

"There are seven volumes of Scientology policy. Many series of policy must be understood together in order get a full duplication of meaning."

Oh no you don't. The policies are quite clear, especially when your own legal teams are *still* arguing that fair game is a legally protected religious practice in courts as recently as 1994. Deny it again, when there is ample evidence that fair game continues to this day and I will call you a liar. The "Cancellation" policy letter made it plain:

"The practice of declaring people FAIR GAME will cease.
FAIR GAME may not appear on any Ethics Order. It causes bad public relations.
This P/L does not cancel any policy on the treatment or handling of an SP." - HCO Policy Letter of 21 October 1968

"The book The Way to Happiness is a good source for understanding Scientology moral values"

As has been covered in one of jacks other threads, your "moral" values include the mass extermination of everyone below 2.0 on the tone scale.
16 months ago: My apologies, way to happiness was the wrong book. The correct book and the quote from it I was refering to was this:

"There are only two answers for the handling of people from 2.0 down on the tone scale, neither of which has anything to do with reasoning with them or listening to their justification of their acts. The first is to raise them on the Tone Scale by unenturbulating some of their theta by any one of the three valid processes. The other is to dispose of them quietly and without sorrow. Adders are safe bedmates compared to people on the lower bands of the tone scale."

- page 195 of The Science of Survival by L Ron Hubbard, 2001 edition.

There is your "ethics".
Greg73
Greg73
Canada
16 months ago: Wow! Shalashar Dekeres, you certainly can't see very well can you. Each of those links I provided contain educated viewpoints of Scientology, including one from the University of Calgary, the same one as the infamous Professor Stephen Kent(another one that has difficulties seeing the full picture) Your last comment is completely a LIE as you continue to take small portions of the Scientology material to explain away your criticism.
On the other hand, I provide information which is readily available at any library concerning how your viewpoint is completely false and you claim that I can't communicate? How do you expect to have anyone believe you?
www.scientoloymyths.info and www.scientologytoday.org (link onto the misconceptions about Scientology) for Scientology's side to the story.
Perhaps you didn't realize that there are more policies concerning the handling of SPs? I just double checked for you, Fair Game policy or even a definition exists in the Introduction to Scientology Ethics Book. There is however information on what SPs rights are. It says " Suppressive Persons or Groups relinquish their rights as Scientologists by their very actions and may not receive the benefits of the Codes of the Church." Introduction to Scientology Ethics (2007) page 309. There is also information about the door always being open for those that wish to recant. That info is in another location.
An Observer
An Observer
Garrettsville, OH
16 months ago: Shalashar Dekeres,

What I have witnessed is Sea Org Members, Staff Members, and the General Public Scientologists which are neither in the Sea Org or on staff, all take these policies with different degrees of seriousness.

The general public Scientologists just want to move up the Bridge.

The staff members are under great pressure to produce income and take the policies somewhat seriously, because not doing so ends up costing them money for not doing so, if they are written up for it.

And the Sea Org members are completely out of touch with what you and I consider reality, those policies are gospel for them. They are the ones who think they are constantly at war with one enemy of another.

A public Scientologist might blow those policies off, since they are not interested in them, but Sea Org members live and die by them, regardless of what the public Scientologists believe.
Greg73
Greg73
Canada
16 months ago: An Observer,
I also have a problem with salesmen. Car salesmen, Real Estate salesmen, (I should say persons I guess), as well as telemarketers, Door-to-door salespersons, etc. Sales is a difficult job. Many that do not know the mechanics of it can seem pushy, or even controlling. The fact is, the product that is sold has to be desired by the customer and that is the goal of the salesman, getting the customer interested, or in this case the parishioner, in the product. So some have a hard time of doing this. **** man, we are only human.
As for your other concern, who did you hear that from specifically?
An Observer
An Observer
Garrettsville, OH
16 months ago: Greg73

I am not going to give anyone's name out for obvious reasons, mainly for what we talked about earlier, Confidentiality being vital, and there being a freedom to privacy. If you want to converse with people some of the ex-members some who still practice Scientology, some who even actually worked with L. Ron. Hubbard This would be a good place to visit

http://www.forum.exscn.net

It is not a critic site, but critics do post there since nothing is censored.It is very informative to actually converse with people who were in Scientology and worked directly with L. Ron Hubbard. There are quite a bit of ex- staffers and ex-Sea Org members who discuss there days in Scientology. And are willing to explain just about anything you ask. You don't need to register to lurk
16 months ago: "Wow! Shalashar Dekeres, you certainly can't see very well can you."

I can read perfectly fine, for instance, when I click on

http://www.emanationinc.com/oost/ and http://www.emanationinc.com/Chidestr/index.htm they both come up "Page Not Found" indeed, if you BOTHERED TO CHECK THE LINKS YOURSELF YOU WOULD KNOW THAT!

The http://www.neuereligion.de site, which you cite multiple times does, as I stated previously include several well thought out defences of Scientology as a religion. It mostly contains links back to front groups and scientologys own pages however! The best of the best however were the calgary link and the two religiousapartied critiques (one article was linked twice).

I took the time to congratulate you for providing what was asked for - 3rd party links that were not affiliated with scientology. Again I say well played, so far you are the first and only scientologist to have been able to do so on any given question. Bravo.

But again, for completeness, check what you're pointing to instead of copy pasting the listing from google catagories (what, you didn't think I'd notice that the list of links were IDENTICAL to the list you put up?)

"Your last comment is completely a LIE as you continue to take small portions of the Scientology material to explain away your criticism."

I cited my reference to one of scientologies own publications. Don't like what it says? Tough. The onus is on you to prove it false with documentary evidence.

"On the other hand, I provide information which is readily available at any library"

Err, clearly you've not been to many libraries, as has been pointed out in other threads. Those book packs you conned the flock into donating for... Most of them got binned. Don't believe me? Check their online indexes... You might be surprised.

Also, debunked propoganda sites really don't cut it, you want to prove your case when the documents proving the contrary exist in the public domain.
16 months ago: "Perhaps you didn't realize that there are more policies concerning the handling of SPs? I just double checked for you"

You surmise wrongly.

Also, your definition of "ethics" is vastly different to mine and the rest of the English speaking world. From the ethics book you cite:

"All that Ethics is for -- the totality of the reason for its existence and operation -- is simply that additional tool necessary to make it possible to apply the technology of Scientology." Chapter One - Purpose of Ethics, fourth edition.

I've checked 3 different online dictionarys. None of these include scientology anywhere in their definitions.



There is however information on what SPs rights are. It says " Suppressive Persons or Groups relinquish their rights as Scientologists by their very actions and may not receive the benefits of the Codes of the Church." Introduction to Scientology Ethics (2007) page 309.

Yes, those ways are simply this: Shut up, do as you're told, pay us lots of money and we might stop hurting you.

Not a direct quote. But there are enough policy letters regarding the treatment of SPs to qualify that.

Oh and btw, neither the circa 2000 edition, nor any previous version beforehand of the Introduction to Ethics manual included "Scientologist" in your quote... Squirrel much?
16 months ago: "What I have witnessed is Sea Org Members, Staff Members, and the General Public Scientologists which are neither in the Sea Org or on staff, all take these policies with different degrees of seriousness."

Agreed. Indeed it is their paramilitary wing, the Sea Org, specifically the Office of Special Affairs (Formerly the Guardians Office) that run and organise Scientologies dirty tricks campaigns (or "capers", to quote LRH).
xenubarb
xenubarb
San Diego, CA
16 months ago: ""On the other hand, I provide information which is readily available at any library"

Err, clearly you've not been to many libraries, as has been pointed out in other threads. Those book packs you conned the flock into donating for... Most of them got binned. Don't believe me? Check their online indexes... You might be surprised."

Shalashar touches on something here that is part of why the Scientology organization is so revolting to me, and that is the never-ending quest for members' money.

Yes, I have read the emails and scans of fliers sent out, telling members that the world is "reaching for LRH tech," and for a special low, low price, YOU can order a set of books to be sent to a library. The goal was to get these books sent to every library in the United States. The price wasn't low; especially considering that Bridge Publications recently invested in a printer made by HP that makes it possible to print books on demand, much like Lulu.com and Cafepress.com. Theoretically, this should bring book costs down, but members are still being charged as if a print run involves hundreds of copies. The organization is making a profit off well meaning people who believe that society wants and needs what Scientology is selling.

When this push first began, people started talking to librarians in their community. This is something Scientologists can do as well. Here is what the librarians of America had to say.

Yes, large boxes of unsolicited books from the Scientology organization had been received.

Shelf space is limited.

With no exception, the books went immediately to the trash or the sale table. And then the trash. Nobody wants them. Your money has been wasted. Libraries do not want unsolicited stacks of books, and they are being disposed of.
xenubarb
xenubarb
San Diego, CA
16 months ago:
Now, as I said, this is something you can look up. The Scientology organization made a fair chunk of change off its members by charging them full price for on-demand printing. The books are not going into libraries nationwide, they are being discarded, just like the copies of TWTH Scientologists are exhorted to donate money for. At G20, the street was littered with them. Nobody wants this shabby knockoff of the Ten Commandments.

And why are members charged $1.40 a copy for something that costs only .14 cents to print? 10,000 copies results in a tidy profit for RTC. They are scamming their own members!

Mecca  Anon
Mecca Anon
Clearwater, FL
16 months ago: Oh heck! I am so much in agreement with this OP. Hubbard's life should be depicted on the big screen! It would be for biographies what Battlefield Earth was for SciFi adventure films. I think Scientology should produce it too! That would be a hoot! I'd go see it!

16 months ago: Oh yeah, Xenubarb, since you haven't looked in a public library lately, you make up yet another fallacy. Oh yeah. Happy Ho Ho's.
16 months ago: "Oh yeah, Xenubarb, since you haven't looked in a public library lately, you make up yet another fallacy. Oh yeah. Happy Ho Ho's."

Have you checked? Because the records for a great many of these libraries are online. You won't find much if anything by LRH beyond the odd pulp work and occationally dianetics in the slightly larger ones.
xenubarb
xenubarb
San Diego, CA
16 months ago: "Oh yeah, Xenubarb, since you haven't looked in a public library lately, you make up yet another fallacy. Oh yeah. Happy Ho Ho's."

Terryeo, you are getting dumber by the day. I have, in fact, checked our main library downtown. Your fail box of books simply vanished, nobody seems to know where they are.

That said, what is keeping you from double checking on what I said? After all, it's gumps like you who are wasting their money to get books into libraries, I'd think you'd want to confirm that they're actually there on the shelves and available.

"Happy Ho Ho's?"
What does that even mean, Terryeo? Is it the verbal equivalent of the San Jose OTVIII gibbering and waving his arms madly to avoid communicating with protesters?
16 months ago: "
Anyone who wants to use the internet can use it. "

Really? Then how do you explain this:
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r195/exscn/Dismissal.jpg
?
16 months ago: I like how this thread is about Kids wanting to grow up to be like L Ron Hubbard. Me and my friends didn't even know who LRH was till the South Park episode making fun of him. I'm just saying, most kids don't even know who the guy is. I'm not saying that ppl shouldn't role model themselves after the guy (actually they shouldn't), I am just saying that most kids don't want to grow up like LRH b/c they don't know who LRH is.

Also, most kids want to be heroes. Like fire fighters, policemen, soldiers; saving people. LRH never saw battle in the military (unless you count the non-exsistant submarine or pissing off mexico). Not many kids say "Wow, i wanna grow up to be a guy who writes cheesy science fiction and starts a religion that requires my followers to make obscene donations to acquire classes that the religion will offer. Then, for my golden years I will evade authorities on a yacht for several years." See what I mean?
16 months ago: I dunno danger, they may have a point. LRH did plenty of drugs and you can see some kids in drugs today. L. Ron Hubbard did lots of stuff including LSD and mescaline and various barbituates according to those who worked for him on the Apollo during the 1960's. Maybe that is what he means, kids want to be drugged out has beens like him. Then there is his other story on here about scientology improving your sex life. I mean sex and drugs? Is this the kind of thing you really want to expose your children to?
An Observer
An Observer
Garrettsville, OH
16 months ago: Drosophilus,

Most public Scientologists have no idea what staff and Sea Org members are put through, they will more than likely try to convince themselves your link is a fake, even though they are fully aware how sensitive an issue the internet has become for the management of Scientology
An Observer
An Observer
Garrettsville, OH
16 months ago: AnonymousX,

To be farr a lot of the rumors of L. Ron Hubbard's drug use are 3rd party hearsay, but one issue regarding his drug use can not be denied, it is the fact that psychiatric drugs were found in his body at the time of his death, the same drugs Sceintology preaches so vehemently against. L. Ron Hubbard thought he could save the planet from insanity, but in the end he couldn't even save himself from it.

The coroner's toxicology report found VISTARILĀ® in his blood, which is a psychiatric drug, used to calm frantic or overly anxious patients. This is public record and if it were not true the Church of Scientology would have sued long ago to have it recorded from the San Luis Obispo Sheriff's Office public records. A copy can be requested it is Coroner's file #8936.
Gregory
Gregory
Beverly Hills, CA
16 months ago: Vistaril is also an antihistamine and only trace amounts of the drug were found in Mr. Hubbard during the toxicology report.
An Observer
An Observer
Garrettsville, OH
16 months ago: Gregory,

you can explain it away if it makes you feel better, but people who personally knew L. Ron Hubbard say otherwise.

The people closest to L. Ron Hubbard all tell the same account of his pharmaceutical drug use or abuse.

The man was in hiding for the last years of his life, his last public appearance was over six years prior to his death.

Granted he was avoiding subpoenas and government tax agents probing allegations that he was skimming church funds which is understandable, but he could have easily made public appearances or videos for his followers from outside the jurisdiction of these law enforcement agencies.

The man was in very bad mental shape the last few years of his life. There is no point in lying about it, if the Church can not be honest about this, all it succeeds in doing is invalidating all his earlier work as lies too.
16 months ago: http://www.drugs.com/mtm/vistaril.html

"Hydroxyzine reduces activity in the central nervous system. It also acts as an antihistamine that reduces the natural chemical histamine in the body."

"Hydroxyzine is used as a sedative to treat anxiety and tension."

A drug that treats anxiety and tension sounds like a pyciatric drug to me.
DeanFox
DeanFox
England
16 months ago: The questions as to whether scientology is a religion is irrelevant; the philosophical teachings of L Ron Hubbard could be considered the basis for a belief system BUT regardless the organisation calling itself the church of scientology is NOT a normal church.

The framework of the scientology organisation is defined by the policies of L Ron Hubbard. The policies govern every aspect of the organisation and the lives of its members in minuet detail. The policies are geared up to:

1. Ensuring belivers do not criticise the policies and teachings - to doubt is a crime (lower condition) for instance which can only be dealt with by reinforcing the teaching one doubts.

2. Ensuring believers ignore critical comment - subscribers believe the only true source is the teachings of L Ron Hubbard, that any other source is invalid, to the point that they believe L Ron Hubbard's teachings are ALL they need effectively blinkering them to any other information.

3. Ensuring believers isolate themselves from any people who might question their beliefs. Any doubts or any negative feelings (physical or emotional) are attributed to suppressive people in the believers' life; they are encouraged to find these suppressives, sometimes they will be pointed out to them, and handle them. Often handling will involve the believer voluntarily "disconnecting" from the suppressive person. Either way they become guarded in their dealings with the "suppressive" thus alienating themselves from anything more than a shallow relationship.

tl;dr: Scientology MAY be a religion but the organisation calling itself the church of scientology is NOT a church, it's a self perpetuating dangerous money making scam.
16 months ago: "tl;dr: Scientology MAY be a religion but the organisation calling itself the church of scientology is NOT a church, it's a self perpetuating dangerous money making scam."

ftr the scientelogy corporation is not, never has been and never will be a recognised religion in most countries.

Obviously in the US they wangled Religious Status to mask their quackery from the medical authorities, and to to eventually "negotaiate" tax exemption. The fact still remains though, it is NOT accepted legally as a religion in real-world-land. :)
An Observer
An Observer
Garrettsville, OH
16 months ago: Scientology is a religion, I can start worshiping my left nut and it would be considered a religion, however DeanFox is absolutely correct when he stated the Church of Scientology is not a church, it's a self perpetuating dangerous money making scam.
DeanFox
DeanFox
England
16 months ago: Terryeo & gregg73 to sum up:

1. The practices of scientology could be the basis for a religion but the organisation calling itself the church of scientology is a business; it recruits followers to milk them for as much as possible, benefiting only Miscavige and those in his favour.

2. Libraries in USA, Canada, Mexico, England, Australia etc do NOT have copies of the basics. These were sent to the libraries unsolicited and while some kept them in storage others pulped them or sent them back. Go and look in a few libraries; quite a few members have blown from this realisation. The organisation rakes in massive profits from book drives entirely from members.

3. The Sq ft of buildings purchased by the cult is growing but membership is waning. Most buildings are empty or staffed by skeleton crews. The cult has to fly people in when having shows to make up head counts. Ideal orgs are a scam too that fleeces members; a complex legal one but a scam none the less.

Unless you're selling stuff, like vitamins or services, to your fellow scientologists they you're victims too but you're caught in the trap so won't realise it.
16 months ago: 3. Where do you get the idea "membership is waning?". I think you'll be surprised when the 2010 census comes in.

2. Which members "blew" from what you allege?

1. The Church sells books for normal or near normal costs. It also sells similar materials, such as lectures and videos. Courses within a Church require a donation. You get a product for the donation. You are assured the Church will do its utmost to insure you understand the content of a course. Auditing too requires a donation. Again, the Church does its utmost to insure excellent delivery. On the other hand, if you don't want any of that, no one is pulling your hand. Have a nice day.
16 months ago: "Where do you get the idea "membership is waning?""

From current census data. It puts it at around 25000 people in the US.

"I think you'll be surprised when the 2010 census comes in."

One of us will certainly be surprised, thats for sure.

"Which members "blew" from what you allege?"

Nearly all of the executive strata of the Australian orgs for starters. We know this because they've all recently (within the past 12 months) shown up en masse on.

http://forum.exscn.net/

Several of them specifically cited that books that were loudly and proudly available from all libraries were not and that caused them to blow.

"The Church sells books for normal or near normal costs."

Clearly you do not understand the costs associated with publishing. Here's a hint, the £1.50 per pamphlet that are required donations, cost about 20p to produce as one offs, mass producing them reduces the costs substantially.

"Again, the Church does its utmost to insure excellent delivery."

Which is why when the "Golden Age of Tech" came out and suddenly required all OT levels to start again the church paid for their mistake (Afterall, it was due to errors that the golden age of tech was necessary).

Only the Church didn't. These poor buggers, who had spent in many cases decades working up the "bridge" were told "sorry, your OT certification is canceled, please start again, oh, and that'll be another three hundred grand".

Oddly enough, a lot of OT's went PTS type 3 over this, and many others simply decided they'd had enough and either outright blew or routed out.

Strange that, eh?
DeanFox
DeanFox
England
16 months ago: Hello again Terryeo, your pamphlets, books, CD sets donations are collected based on a retail price. This price is derived from actual unit cost (quite small) plus various inflated "costs" for such ephemerals as "license fees" and less emphemeral stuff such as packaging, shipping, binding etc.

Thanks to the organisations' various subsidiaries, some of which are not for profit and others which are, the illusion is given to any cursory check that the materials are being provided "at cost".

Anyone who asks WHY they cost as much as they do though and compares the costs with similar products from other businesses will quickly realise that much of the costs are soak manufactured by the organisation to justify the price tag.

As to which members blew,I am personally aware of 6 that blew in the last year, 4 of which were members for greater than 10 years, with one having been a member for over 20 years. Sadly I cannot prove this to you without breaching confidences and do not expect you to take my word for it.

Their is also John Duignan from Ireland, who wrote a book about it, and Paul "Scooter" Schofield from Australia who was on Narconon lines for 6 years prior to 2008 and involved in scientology since 1979. They're relatively public though and their credentials have also been verified.

Regardless of how the 2010 census looks I'm more interested in dismantling the church of scientology in its current form. I'm not interested in convincing the independent scientologists and Freezoners, both groups which are growing and put scientology on the census forms, that the teachings of LRH outside of the organisation are a crock; they're not being scammed and don't perpetrate immoral acts in the name of the church of scientology, though they live by LRH's cred.
DeanFox
DeanFox
England
16 months ago: Should point out that Paul "Scooter" Schofield blew from the realisation that the library donations were not achieving anything but profit for the organisation. See his story here: http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?t=8381 though to verify it, as I have done, you will need to do your own leg work; you won't trust any sources I provide but if you're resourceful enough you should be able to confirm the existence of the person and the various events to which they attest. Might be easier for you because you might have access to organisation records.
16 months ago: In this thread, scientology critics win.
MikeMercer
MikeMercer
Glenn Dale, MD
16 months ago: Here is a link to a new story about scientology thugs beating on a kid for disagreeing with them.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvHpFtjNg_c
Louanne
Louanne
Los Angeles, CA
12 months ago: Jack H Remington is a troll, not a scientologist. He utterly fails to trick a real Scientology member.

- L

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