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Rant

Is Global Warming/Climate Change Real?

Posted 22 months ago|107 comments|2,277 views
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Altruist
Eugene, OR
This has been a difficult winter for the environmental movement. A hacker found embarrassing remarks in stolen emails of a UN scientist that works on the IPCC the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change. That was followed by highly publicized mistakes in the IPCC report. The Copenhagen talks were a disappointment, and even Red State Guy came out with a couple of posts critical of climate change, that actually made some sense.

Being an open minded liberal, and a former engineer and teacher I am dependant on the scientific method and rational thought to make sense of the world. Given new data that contradicted my understanding of the environment, I was forced to re-evaluate the entire concept of Global Warming.

Last night at 8:30 local time, we joined many million people in a hundred different countries in turning our lights off, for an hour to highlight awareness of the environment.

Thousands of landmarks all over the world were darkened and millions of people and thousands of businesses shut off the lights. This is a global effort to educate people about the environment. I will do my part by trying to explain my re-evaluation of Climate Change.

To understand the criticisms of the current scientific understanding I first had to understand the basic principles involved.

The following video is a pretty complete recap of what scientists have learned over the past 150 years. http://www.youtube.com/user/greenman3610...
There is no vast plot and just because one scientist is overzealous in his volunteer job you can't condemn every scientist in all of the countries in the world. Some of the findings are based on ice core samples. That research is corroborated with coral growth, tree rings, and by many other methods, like fossil records that indicate that the last time CO2 levels were this high was 15 million years ago . One study used 29,500 different indicators and 90% of them confirmed that climate change is happening and it is human caused.

But what about Climategate and the hacked emails? Doesn't that prove that Phil Jones was manipulating data and that the IPCC report is made up ? Climate deniers point to a number of emails that on the face of it seem to indicate manipulation, however these are cherry picked sentences taken out of context. To understand what the scientists were actually talking about see the second video, and read the following: http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/arc...

No, although it was embarrassing and shows that sometimes scientists don't think much of climate deniers, the emails do nothing to indicate that the data was manipulated or that the science was wrong. Phil Jones was a lousy record keeper but all of his data has been duplicated from other sources. Even if one scientist had intentionally manipulated data it would not have changed the vast amount of evidence that has accumulated from myriad sources. The IPCC report which is three volumes, each about a thousand pages long, was written by over 1250 authors, most of which were not previous IPCC authors. Each one of these authors would have had to be in on the conspiracy. The documents were reviewed by 2,500 experts who collectively submitted 90,000 review comments on the drafts.

After sifting through that huge 3,000 page report with a fine tooth comb, climate deniers can only point to two errors. In the first error the disappearance of the Himalayan glaciers are projected for 2035. This was because the authors of the WG2 report used an unreliable source and did not consult with the authors of the WG1 report which had a 45 page report on glaciers with the correct information. The error was found by one of the authors of the WG1 report and was fixed by deleting two sentences.

The other error was in a report on rising sea level; "The Netherlands is an example of a country highly susceptible to both sea-level rise and river flooding because 55% of its territory is below sea level". This sentence was provided by a Dutch government agency the Netherlands Environmental Assessment Agency, which has now published a correction stating that the sentence should have read "55 per cent of the Netherlands is at risk of flooding; 26 per cent of the country is below sea level, and 29 per cent is susceptible to river flooding".

Climate deniers will trot out all kinds of supposed "Facts" that question Global Warming; They deny that humans can cause the increases in temperature, that it can all be explained by natural cycles, sun spots, or that global warming couldn't be happening because it was cold this winter and we had record snow storms. They continue to confuse local weather with global climate which indicates that the global temperatures are at record highs while local storms are generated because of record high ocean temperatures.

Environmentalists are constantly attacked by the fossil fuel industry which is bankrolling the same PR firms that were used to spread doubt about tobacco causing cancer. To read how this huge propaganda machine can cause an artificial crisis of confidence by spending millions of dollars to spread doubt read: http://wonkroom.thinkprogress.org/2009/1...

In my opinion they should have had the climate conference in the middle of drought stricken Africa, while the temperature was 120 degrees, in view of the disappearing snows of Kilimanjaro instead of the North in the middle of winter. If you want to know the truth about Climate change and the deniers, follow the money. The fossil fuel industry has billions of dollars to spend and it is in their interest to spend that money to spread doubt.

I realize that my opinion will never change anyone else's mind. Each individual needs to do their own research, and make their own conclusions.

Here is a list of videos of climate deniers and their arguments that question Climate Change: http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.h...

To check out rebuttals to all of these claims investigate the following site: http://greenfyre.wordpress.com/denier-vs...
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COMMENTS
22 months ago: I personally believe that with the extensive paving, mortar & brick, steel buildings worldwide that we have done over the decades including in colder northern climates are putting a lot of reflective heat into the air.
22 months ago: Sorry J Lee, cities don't cover enough of the earths surface to affect more than a small local change, as is really local in the immediate area you are standing in the middle of the parking lot. Cities, their boundries, cover less than 2% of the land mass and most of that is not paved or covered by heat retaining materials.

There is some temprature averages that are believed to have been affected by placing the measuring station within a poor geographical region, top of a building, middle of a parking lot, in a manmade shade or wind zone, but hard to pin point exact cause from my house.
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
22 months ago: Al,

I'm not seeing anything much different than you presented back in http://www.rantrave.com/Rave/Change-is-C... except your offering up it's hot in Africa vice Southern California fires as de facto evidence of global warming. That's not science - that's a fallacy of false cause and I'll repost what I stated before:

"Another disturbing fallacy you posed in your article is citing examples of a current event as proof of your delusional global warming Armageddon. You cited the current fires in S. Calif as a 'proof' of global warming as though these are unnatural occurrences. Are you kidding or you just watching Al Gore's Inconvenient Truth over and over? If that's a proof than I'll cite a Chicago Tribune, Jan 14th, 2009 (Chicago's coldest winter in 8 years will be getting even colder) as counter evidence. This is why we need real Scientists advancing the arguments as opposed to political ideologues making ridiculous assertions."

By the way, as an addendum regarding your "rational" hysteria about billions dying and that I should imminently move out of Florida to save myself from the global warming flood, I'm not seeing it yet Al and we just had the coldest winter in 30 years, losing nearly all our winter tomato crops as a result. See how I play the same fallacy as you can?

Also, you're still engaging in logical fallacy by attacking the skeptics (who are Scientists) with ad hominem - that's not Science either and of course calls into question your claim of open-mindedness and rationalism. I'll give you the same link on this subject that I provided before:

http://www.thepeoplesvoice.org/TPV3/Voic...

...Being an open minded liberal, and a former engineer and teacher I am dependent on the scientific method and rational thought to make sense of the world...

Being a liberal means you have to mold Science to fit the liberal line on global warming just like conservatives mold Science for their purposes. Take the liberal (and Al Gore) out of open minded liberal, take the former out of former engineer, and try to be objectively rational. Again, I'll repost the link to to the climate data charts and you have to do better than just respond with ad hominem - respond with raw data that proves otherwise. Science is neither religious or political; global warming isn't true because liberals believe it or false because conservatives don't. The people who need to push the case (i.e state the facts as supported by evidence) must be Scientists with no absolutely no political axes to grind.'

http://tinyurl.com/qaau8c

Do you remember when these news article links that were posted in related topics? You said at the time they made you think - what happened? Turn off the thinking cap and put on another Al Gore mantra tape?

There has been no global warming since 1995:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-...

World may not be warming, say scientists

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22 months ago: No kidding! It's still frigging cold.

...we just had the coldest winter in 30 years...
22 months ago: Junk short term thinking.

A few months of cool weather doesn't have any impact on long term climate trends.
If the same re-occurred over the next 30 years you may have something.
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
22 months ago: Okay, show us the long term global warming trends - don't see them here:

http://tinyurl.com/qaau8c

Works both way, don't it?
22 months ago: Statistically when you look at data you have to check to see how long a period is suitable to remove background noise.
As far as temperature data is concerned, or sea levels and other similar data, a few months or even a few years is just background noise. Any trend is established by removing that noise and for temperature data, that requires a few decades.

Not sure what you mean by 'it works both ways'??
A petition isn't relevant to the comment I made.
22 months ago: A few decades? Still too short of a timeline. Try a few Millennia and even then you can't be sure since true weather pattern trend changes occur over millions of years.

Basically anything short of desert heat and frozen oceans is normal for our planet at one time or another.
22 months ago: You don't understand the science.

Statistically for the type of data that temperature represents over periods of years.
You need a few decades to show a trend through the noise of weather and seasons etc.

It's basic statistical analysis.

The period required is purely down to the nature of the data being analysed, it has nothing to do with the context that the data has. You certainly don't need millennia to show a climate trend in the temperature.
22 months ago: They don't understand the science either...garbage in = garbage out...
Grants in = garbage out.....
Let's keep that money pot full....
22 months ago: The Daily Mail article has been established as misreporting and journalistic malpractice.
The Mail article is based on a BBC interview. Phil Jones actually implied the opposite of what the Mail had written.
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
22 months ago: Oh and might you provide a citation to a more reliable source and partisan free source - perhaps the Guardian? :)
22 months ago: I wouldn't recommend any newspaper.
The original interview is here:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/8511...

Question posed to Phil Jones by Roger Harrabin was: "Do you agree that from 1995 to the present there has been no statistically-significant global warming"

The question was important and was ignored by the daily mail. The words 'statistically-significant' are very important because they influence Jones answer.
Phil Jones said because the period of analysis is to short, it is difficult to place a statistical significance to cooling or warming.

He actually says:
"This trend (0.12C per decade) is positive, but not significant at the 95% significance level."

eg. there is warming but in answer to the question, it can't be proven because the period is to short to give it any significance. It's basic statistical analysis.

I stated in another comment that you need a few decades in order to get statistically identifiable trends.

The Daily Mail were showing their ignorance in the report.
22 months ago:

Also, you're still engaging in logical fallacy by attacking the skeptics (who are Scientists) with ad hominem - that's not Science either and of course calls into question your claim of open-mindedness and rationalism. I'll give you the same link on this subject that I provided before:

Incorrect.
There are only a small number of skeptical scientists who have published anything coming close to something acceptable as research into climate science and most of their research has been shown to be seriously flawed. Most of the hard core skeptics are incompetent amateurs, a few are retired scientists.

Ad hominen attacks??
Not really just facts. Trying to make out that many skeptics have some sort of credibility and hence are being attacked by bringing them down to the level they are actually at, isn't an ad hominen attack.

But when scientists are sent abusive emails with threats to their lives, that is unlawful and illegal.
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
22 months ago: You're just answering charges of logical fallacy with more logical fallacy. Provide the raw data evidence.
22 months ago: I think it is for you to suggest names who you think are credible skeptic scientists.
eg. you provide the 'raw data' on the skeptic scientists and i'll consider them.
22 months ago: Mark, let me start the laughs

I.P.C.C., C.R.U, Phil Jones, Michael Mann, CNN, PBS, TBS, CBS, ABC, NBC, BBC and curley fries at McDonalds.
22 months ago: Maybe you can't read.

I asked you to provide a list of skeptic scientists that you were convinced had written credible research on climate science.

If you like shooting your own foot, go and shoot it somewhere else.
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markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
22 months ago: World may not be warming, say scientists

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/en...

And here's the latest brick from the IPCC:

Climategate: two more bricks fall out of the IPCC wall of deceit – rainforests and polar bears

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/gerald...
22 months ago: You are aware that shutting down that much for one hour actually costs more energy than running them for that hour. Right? Did you shut down every gas and electric appliance and device?
John W
John W
Sanford, NC
22 months ago: Well perhaps if you didn't do all your research in propaganda sites you might come to different conclusions. Try some basic fact checking with disciplines not in the debate like chemistry, statistics, history, and archeology.
22 months ago: Really. You might want to look at the cost of lost equipment during such a large start up. You might want to factor in the additional fuel and expense needed to manufacture and replace the lost equipment. You might want to factor in how much pollution must be added to produce the replacement parts. You might want to factor in how much harder everything that was turned off must work to return to pre-shutdown conditions. You might want to factor in that the harder the appliances work the more energy they use. So, in effect that nice jesture of turning off your lights was a negative.
22 months ago: TCG, remember, they never think much past the original thought, as in, the consequences of their actions might be worse than the problem they "think" they are solving...... Good points, keep 'em thinking.
22 months ago: Rove Wins, Rothschild Sucks

"Being a liberal means you have to mold Science to fit the liberal line on global warming just like conservatives mold Science for their purposes. Take the liberal (and Al Gore) out of open minded liberal, take the former out of former engineer, and try to be objectively rational."

One of the great loony tunes of our times will be this dualistic paradigm of "liberal means this" and "conservative means that." It means that Rove won the culture battle whereby conservative and liberal were oil and water. My progressive tendencies are to look for truth, not to weigh it on who the "winners" might be. It seems we are all tribal in that we root for teams, cities, states, countries. And, like Reagan pontificated, the whole planet becomes a tribe when aliens arrive. I dislike Republicans with a passion, and it has been nice to see an eruption of reports showing how wrong they have been for so long. On every single issue, especially things like the belief in the co-existence of humans and dinosaurs, and probably Noah's Flood -- you know, the flood that caused the Grand Canyon (book on sale in the gift shop). This and the rounds of applause from any caustic "anti-evilution" remarks by Repubs is so ludicrous it defies reason. SO ... please don't lecture on what "liberal science" does and does not do. At least the friggin' libs have science.

One of the things I hate about Climategate is that, politically, the friggin Right finally won a battle, one that might shift the war. Like John Stewart said, that the shoddiness portrayed in the e-mails -- (and now some of the critical claims of the 2007 report) -- has given license to the Repubs to go skull**** polar bears in Alaska. And now they are going to do all they can to rub our faces in it. After years of illegal wars, torture, war crimes and war profiteering beyond our wildest dreams, now they finally get some authentic ammunition: pretty much the words and some of the methodological data by the primary actors themselves. It is devastating. And the cards and letters keep on flowing. Just the other day, Russia reported the coldest Siberian winter on record. And a few weeks ago, Phil Jones said no real warming in the last 15 years.

But Altruist says, "follow the money" -- the money used for supporting the skeptics/critics. Big bad oil etc is at the bottom of it all. And so it is that the same charge is levied from the left against the skeptics -- who are all conservatives in the pockets of big oil, even if they do not know it or want to admit it) -- that the skeptics are going to be selective in the data they use to build their case against AGW. And so in the end, Science is reduced to He Said-She Said -- The Very Thing Science Was Designed To Overcome. And round and round we go.

Right backatchya Altruist: What happens when we follow the money of the AGW crowd: Rothschild? How in God's name did the greenies ever come to regard this assbite as Jesus (I think Gore was responsible for that) or close to him among the green crowd? It's Sap City. This is the other thing I hate about Climategate: it brought me to the realization that the payoff went way beyond what I expected, primarily because I am economically-deficient and never looked into it. When you say follow the money in a mirror, the AGW crowd must examine the possible sinister nature of the Carbon Market, and especially the Chicago Climate Exchange as an institution, and how it hooks up to a UN sponsored global banking and regulatory apparatus, and what the consequences will be for all of us, especially the 3rd World -- look up "the Danish Text"+Cop15. The whole Carbon Market thing is beyond my acute consideration, but it sends shivers down my back. Especially when the only bugaboo being looked at is CO2. Everything else gets a free ride.

But the biggest hit against the AGW crowd is data that shows this has happened before -- global warming, that is. And if has happened bef
22 months ago: [sorry folks, first post; pt.2]

But the biggest hit against the AGW crowd is data that shows this has happened before -- global warming, that is. And if has happened before, then the entire root conclusion -- that it is our fault -- is mute. You did not mention the two adjacent climate events that shaped the last millennium: the Medieval Warm Period nor the following Little Ice Age. The AGW crowd didn't mention them much either, as shown on the Hockey Stick. That was bogus, as Jones seemingly admitted in front of the PMs the other week. Chances are, the Hockey Stick should actually look like a big fat Camel.

And maybe though only liberals actually use science, they are still obligated to make it available, and that it is Replicable, meaning any expert can come along and look at the data and come up with the same conclusions. It is all numbers. If it is not numbers, it is not Science. And the CRU crew does not have this data, only "value added" versions -- again, see John Stewart's take on this. My point is that even if these guys are right, and maybe even if they tried to sex up the data just a bit for emphasis -- any and all fallout, however the climate pendulum swings -- is going to be their fault, historically, for not being serious about science and more interested in keeping those grants coming in and looking for Rothschild's approval.

It's a complicated can of worms, but Left-Right tirades ain't going to get us any closer to the truth.
22 months ago: Erm, we all know warming and cooling have happened before. Your opening statement is a waste of time, but that isn't surprising.

Liberals only use science??
Geez, does everyone else live in caves then?

It's nice that you point out that science is about numbers.
Which puts into question the whole skeptical scatter gun approach and the use of stolen emails. If you really want science, then practice it and don't use illegal methods.
The reason the CRU don't have some of the raw data is because they abide by the laws of the nations that provide the data.


markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
22 months ago: ...The reason the CRU don't have some of the raw data is because they abide by the laws of the nations that provide the data...

Ohh! I should have known that myself Humpy - The documents are obviously Cosmic Top Secret Eyes Only and will self-destruct in five seconds if exposed to the light of day.
22 months ago: The new NASA now won't even go past 1973 and change their own reports with multiple dates to fit your needs/wants.
22 months ago: "If you really want science, then practice it and don't use illegal methods.
The reason the CRU don't have some of the raw data is because they abide by the laws of the nations that provide the data."

Just use legal methods to suppress data that will have world-shaking economic consequences? No. I don't think so. Jones admitted he deleted the data, and now it looks like one of the US agencies relied on CRU data for their own work, and the dominos continue to wiggle. This should have been cleared up by the first week in December if there was no there there.
kikki
kikki
22 months ago: Great post. You have all made me think more.
22 months ago: Uh, Pampy, you might check your stats for the last 24 months.
Altruist
Altruist
Eugene, OR
22 months ago: When I said that I had to rethink my views on the environment it meant that I had to listen to the AGW arguments and then I listened to the counter arguments. It became clear that the criticisms of the Climate Change theory came from picking and choosing single sentences out of mounds of material, and then taking that sentence out of context. The simple counter argument to this tactic was to illustrate the entire passage that sentence was drawn from with perhaps a bit of context and background thrown in so you can understand.

For example the criticism about fixing the data with a trick referred to adjusting the tree ring data to match the actual observed data.

The Medieval warm period was a simple local weather phenomenon because all of the data that made up that first graph showing warmer medieval temperatures. The researchers went back and gathered data from all around the world at that time period and then the medieval warm period was not evident because colder places on the other parts of the planet canceled the readings in England out.

I do not intend to do your work for you. I listed a good web site that all of the liberals can visit that has easy to watch videos of criticisms of Global Warming. I expect doctrinaire followers of Al Gore to watch and listen to the opposing views. It is not as simple as Al Gore states.

On the other hand I expect the deniers to watch the videos that provide an answer to all of those AGW criticisms. Then you can make an informed decision.

Those like Mark who expect me to state in one or two sentences a definitive proof that some AGW argument is false, or that a single data source will definitively prove that global warming is happening will be dissapointed. I expect you to do your own work. Have you started by watching the three videos attached? They answer a lot of your questions.

The best way to do this is to get a subscription to a good respected scientific journal and read it. To simply state that all scientists are biased or that the scientific community is closed and will not allow critics to be published and thus be peer reviewed is nonsense.

There is no single source of information. There are mountains of data, millions of articles, by hundreds of thousands of scientists. 95% of them all agree that the world is warming and that it is human caused.

The IPCC is having all of their work reviewed by independent panels and this entire "Climategate" thing will make the IPCC and the environmental community stronger, because the facts keep rolling in. Facts are undeniable. There are only so many ways to read a thermometer.

I hope no one expects me to change their minds because I am not a climatologist. I hope you all listen to the real climatologists out there, the skeptics and the majority opinion. I know it is difficult to listen to opposing views but that is the only way you can learn the truth, and the only way you can make an informed decision.

In a few days I will make another post that will make things clearer. In the meantime I expect everyone to do your homework, and I will continue to do mine.
22 months ago: "Peer Review" -- I've been involved in the peer review world all of my professional life. It was regarded as sancrosanct. And indeed the IPCC et al global warmist crowd and their critics alike were all subject to it. Like always. Like it had always been done. It is the root of scientific persuasion of one theory against another's. Sure there have been politics and skirmishes -- that's human nature. And it was inside knowledge. Science went on. But the CRU emails -- which have to do with a global project that will effect us all, for generations -- have let the cat out of the bag. Not only do they implicate felonious actions regarding FOIA regulations, but also of muscling out leading editors and institutions if they decide not to play ball with the AGW crowd. Phil Jones raped the Peer Review concept. And so now, the device of peer review itself is under the microscope. Ergo, we cannot even rely on the peer reviewed literature at present until the whole mess is being ironed out. Epistemology is buoyed by honest peer reviewed data. Now it is suspect, and not over some new butterfly in the Phillipines. What is at stake is an enormous policy of global carbon taxation that has a payoff schemata somewhere around $47 Trillion dollars.

Solution: Follow the money in both directions. I think we will find wolves waiting at the end of each rainbow.
22 months ago:

But the CRU emails -- which have to do with a global project that will effect us all, for generations -- have let the cat out of the bag. Not only do they implicate felonious actions regarding FOIA regulations, but also of muscling out leading editors and institutions if they decide not to play ball with the AGW crowd. Phil Jones raped the Peer Review concept.

That is junk. The sort of junk that has been proven incorrect many times by many different people.
The CRU was targeted by McIntyre with spam FOI requests (FOI requests under UK law not American). The requests had no scientific basis because each request had a series of unique countries in sequence and they were sent to the CRU one after another in order to overload the scientists and distract them form the work. Phil Jones had known what McIntyre had done because McIntyre had posted instructions on his blog.
It is not surprising at all that Phil Jones was annoyed by this, many people would have been under the same situation.

The people that organised the denial of service attack did it with intent to misuse the FOI law. In that respect the law is probably weak and would need tightening up.

I take the initial sentence of your comment with a pinch of salt.
22 months ago: fixing the data with a trick

gathered data from all around the world at that time period and then the medieval warm period was not evident

Do I need to keep re-posting your ostrage entries?
22 months ago: Spire, don't go off all half cocked. Mark and I are pushing you for the documented facts. Trust me we are probably more on your side than you think.

Talk here is only just another pile of $hit.
22 months ago: Al.

Wishful thinking.

Why don't you research warm water snail fossils found in core samples brought up under Greenland?

Climate fluctuates, and we cannot control cow farts.

Now, I agree we should fight to stop pollution. Absolutely.
22 months ago: Cow farts are not the problem as far as methane goes. If you can't get something basic like that correct, what relevance is your opinion on other similar matters?

The main issue is belching and dung.

However the problem caused by ruminant livestock is overestimated when compared to road vehicle emissions and other sources.
scotmanster
scotmanster
22 months ago:
Last night at 8:30 local time, we joined many million people in a hundred different countries in turning our lights off, for an hour to highlight awareness of the environment.

Did you know it takes more electricity to power up light initially when you flick the switch to on? So undoubtedly your making a point or a stance at the same time putting a huge strain on the electric grid, especially when "millions" partake in it at the same time. If you really are for saving the environment just simply shut off all your power 24/7, now that is what I call taking a stance.

But either way you can bet climategate for the normal person just witnessed how unreliable scientific research is and how it can be twisted for a personal bias.

"Science" and "climate change" is dead in the water. Here is how I see it. Mammoth tax increases are coming down the pipeline, we as America as whole will rethink our ideologies when we are forking over the majority of our earnings to pay for "special interests" groups funding. That will equate to the well drying up and citizens demanding to cut all special interest funding. So you "scientists" can quibble all you want about climate change but your jobs will be cut period. You can throw nasa out the window too.
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22 months ago:
Did you know it takes more electricity to power up light initially when you flick the switch to on?

The turning off issue is symbolic.
But in any case a planned one hour switch off is less likely to cause grid frequency regulation problems than the normal irregular variations caused by everyday use. With a planned switch off, grid controllers can take generating capacity off line at a given time. That is less of a problem than irregular changes that happen everyday.
So in reality it is less likely to cause a problem by switching off at a fixed time and for a fixed period, than the big peaks and troughs caused by less predictable events that require spinning reserve and other standby generating capacity just in case.


"Science" and "climate change" is dead in the water.

Far from it.
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
22 months ago: Like TCG said, talk here is just a pile of doo doo and and anytime somebody floats this subject, the same arguments gets thrown back and forth. But I got the plan.

First, we have a worldwide televised/youtube confab and it will include a panel of credible experts - minimum of a doctorate in related hard Sciences with 20 years under the belt, and must include Scientists from both sides of the controversy. Nobody else will be in the room except the cameras - no Al Gore, no Rush Limbaugh. no soft Scientists, no politicians, no media talking heads, nada.

All the chips are laid on the table; raw data, charts, stats, analysis, and rebuttal. Assuming this top secret raw data and analysis results in a consensus that the problem is genuine and is clear and imminent danger to humanity, solutions must be determined & presented. However, solutions must in themselves result in a clear and imminent danger to humanity (i.e. the cure must not kill the patient)

Once that's done and it's crystal clear that these global warming Scientists were right all along even though they put humanity at risk by hiding/corrupting the data and using ignorant partisan shills to be their spokesman (thus causing this political rift), we must endeavor to go on war footing to combat the problem. That's because our very survival is at stake; Al's end of the world scenario with billions dead is no longer just a hysterical Gore nightmare - it's a fact.

If a country likes to China decides they won't be complying with the solution, the world must impose a worldwide trade embargo and possibly war to ensure they don't cause the destruction of our planet by failing to comply with the global warming solution. War is Hell but the survival of the planet and the human race is at stake.

How's that for the plan Al?
22 months ago: Mark.

Just when I start to think you may be credibile in some of your arguments, you start tooting the cow farting global warming...er..uh...global cooling...uh..er.. climate change hoghoof, and I realize you are a typical blind liberal.

Phew! That was close! Thanks.
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
22 months ago: Maybe you didn't read it right although I did forget one "not" - "However, solutions must in themselves (NOT) result in a clear and imminent danger to humanity (i.e. the cure must not kill the patient)

In any event, I'm not on the conservative or liberal side - I'm asking the experts to either prove it with real verifiable data or shut the ____ up. (you fill in the blank). If they do prove it, I'm not going to act like a nutty fundy and say, "well the Lawd is gonna come back and bring in a new earth - we don't need to clean it now, amen and rock of ages" But at this point, I'm very skeptical that they can prove it given their inability to come forward with the raw data and rational non-partisan arguments.
22 months ago:
First, we have a worldwide televised/youtube confab and it will include a panel of credible experts - minimum of a doctorate in related hard Sciences with 20 years under the belt, and must include Scientists from both sides of the controversy. Nobody else will be in the room except the cameras - no Al Gore, no Rush Limbaugh. no soft Scientists, no politicians, no media talking heads, nada.

What exactly is a soft scientist??
The outcome wouldn't change. You may like to think so, but it wouldn't.

However, solutions must in themselves result in a clear and imminent danger to humanity (i.e. the cure must not kill the patient)

Science does not work like that. If you think black and white answers are possible, then you don't understand science.

Once that's done and it's crystal clear that these global warming Scientists were right all along ...

You are asking for the impossible, Any scientific result will only give you a probability that something will happen (not just climate change, but physics, drug testing etc.), life is about probabilities not certainties.
22 months ago: I bet it will be 10 U.N. scientists with 20 related years under the belt making them 2 years on the job.
Altruist
Altruist
Eugene, OR
22 months ago: Sounds Good Mark. That is what they are doing with the independent panel of experts reviewing the IPCC's work.
http://www.usnews.com/science/articles/2...
22 months ago: independent panel? Who would that be? Who picked them?
Altruist
Altruist
Eugene, OR
22 months ago: Even if you folk are right and the 95% of the scientists and all of their data wrong, wouldn't it make sense to start investing more in renewable energy than we are? Are we going to let China beat us to all of those jobs?

China is investing nearly twice what we are in renewable energy ($34.6 billion as opposed to the $18.6 billion we are spending.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/natur...

22 months ago: "wouldn't it make sense to start investing more in renewable energy than we are?"

Absolutely!! And let's outlaw GM food industries. Now! Screw this hysteria over carbon. Hey! How about depleted uranium? There is so much out there that should be stopped. Problem is, the carbon market don't give a damn about it.
22 months ago: All scientists which say global warming is a fact are getting money thrown at them. Those who are brave enough to say it is not are having rocks and ridicule thrown at them. Guess who has more motivation and resources to make a case?

www.heartland.org/custom/semod_policybot...
22 months ago: Junk.

All scientists get paid. You get paid, I get paid.
Einstein got paid. It doesn't invalidate the work he did. What does change our perspective is good science that gives a more accurate picture. That is achieved by doing more science.

Being brave doesn't get the correct result, more science does.
22 months ago: Oh that is about as lame as it gets my friend. Lets see.... scientists just go get their job for doing science stuff and they get paid. Wow and you and I get paid for doing stuff to!!!
If a scientist is being paid from a government grant to find ways to decrease global warming then the scientist will be looking for ways to reduce global warming regardless of if it actually exists or not. It seems your scientific approach to things is no better than most global warming extremists. If it does not agree with your ideas simply call it junk, dismiss and ridicule then try to look smart.
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22 months ago:
If a scientist is being paid from a government grant to find ways to decrease global warming then the scientist will be looking for ways to reduce global warming regardless of if it actually exists or not.

1. Climate Scientists are not looking at ways of reducing global warming, they are looking at understanding climate and the changes, the fact that they happen to discover it is warming is a coincidence. They would still have to be paid to track and understand it even if the climate were cooling or getting wetter etc.

2. You need to apply your logic to all scientists (most of which are employed by governments around the world). Which means society becomes less safe, less healthy and large scale research projects no longer contribute to the economy. Why?
Because using your logic they are only going to provide the answer an alleged conspiring government wants to hear.
Global Warming research is about 150 or so years old, in that time, wars, governments and public opinion have come and gone, climate change research has not changed a great deal in the same period. It gives a similar answer now that Arrhenius calculated about 150 years ago.


It seems your scientific approach to things is no better than most global warming extremists. If it does not agree with your ideas simply call it junk, dismiss and ridicule then try to look smart.

Erm, you haven't got any idea what my ideas are!
You are making a judgement based on your own cultural prejudices.
The science comes first, then ideas are based on that.
22 months ago: 1. My point is a generalization i.e I don't know what you do for a living but if you work at a car manufacturing factory you are not going to pound on the CEO's door and demand he look at the rival car company's electric car because you feel it is better for the environment. You will put on the widgets or whatever it is you do every day and go home. You seem to imply that scientist have such a broad working field that they certainly know all aspects of climatology. It is on a project basis and one scientist may study one aspect of the project while another studies another. As an example if you are paid to find four leaf clovers in a clover field you may find hundreds of such clovers and it could look as if soon all clovers will become four leaf clovers. If scientists are paid to find unusual activity in the global climate there is know doubt enormous amounts of unusual activity to find. At the end of the day the evidence could look overwhelming. Just like the clovers however no one is getting paid to look for three leaf clovers so there is only one conclusion to be made.
22 months ago:
but if you work at a car manufacturing factory you are not going to pound on the CEO's door and demand he look at the rival car company's electric car because you feel it is better for the environment.

Do you work??
One thing that you do definitely do, is look at a competitors work!
You would be stupid if you didn't.
If the competitor had better ideas, you would try and use them.
Your analogy is quite poor.
An engineer wouldn't be quite pathetic if they just kept their head down and didn't have an opinion.

But in any case we are discussing scientists working in a non-commercial environment in many different nations.
22 months ago: Alright lets use your angle. You identify scientists or organizations which have been given 30 billion dollars to prove that man is "not" causing global warming.
22 months ago: 2. Thanks for pointing out that most scientists are employed by governments, that was a huge help. Scientists do not need to be controlled or manipulated by the governments which pay them. There is no conspiracy necessary here. It is very simple (just like the link I provided points out, if you take time to actually read it). All that is necessary is for governments to give a grant to determine if man is causing global warming. The scientists findings indicate man "may" be causing global change. So the government gives out some more grants to investigate. More scientists determine again the chance for possible man made climate change. More grants, more scientists, more money. Presto....in a few years you have an entire industry being supported (as you stated) by the tax payers. There is no need for a conspiracy, just for thousands of scientists to be focused on one aspect and completely ignore the aspect that they are "not" getting paid to look into. As stated in my link one of the most telling factors is that after 30 billion dollars spent on global warming research there is still no absolute answer on the question of is man changing the climate.
O.K I have know idea what your ideas are. So to simply play your game I will say your assessment on the issue is "junk". Now that is quite scientific is it not.
22 months ago:
Thanks for pointing out that most scientists are employed by governments, that was a huge help.

I didn't need to but it seems you are obsessed by it.

Scientists do not need to be controlled or manipulated by the governments which pay them.

They aren't, but you seem to think they are.


There is no conspiracy necessary here.

Yet you wish to create one.

Presto....in a few years you have an entire industry being supported (as you stated) by the tax payers.

Erm, incorrect.
I said most scientists are employed by governments.
If you are going to tarnish one set of scientists then by your own conspiracy definition they are all under suspicion. eg. you have a paranoid conspiracy theory.
If you don't follow the idea through to all scientists then that implies you are picking on climate scientists because you don't like the results they find!

Either way, you are bringing politics into science research just because you don't like their results.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
22 months ago: You do realize the vast amounts of money in brokered carbon credits that is poised to change hands in the event of a carbon credit scheme?
scotmanster
scotmanster
22 months ago:
Global Warming research is about 150 or so years old,

Please provide proof becuase I think the above quote is a out and out lie your propagating.
22 months ago: Just to quote myself (yet again):

"...Arrhenius calculated about 150 years ago."

To be more precise, Arrhenius did the calculation 114 years ago.
Tyndall did some experiments in 1858.

But the exact year is not important.
The science has been around longer than current political participation.
22 months ago: Nostradamus predicted it around 1550.....?
22 months ago: Scot, see the Wiki article about Arrhenius, not quite that old but he started some theories about CO2 and the effects on climate.

I will stand by the eons of climate change data, most of which man was not here to record the reasons why it changed. That little bit of data they keep trying to use to say "man" is causing all the change just doesn't hold up to the fact that no matter what we do "Mother Nature" will and can trump us in a few seconds and then come back and slam us again and again.
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22 months ago:
Scot, see the Wiki article about Arrhenius, not quite that old but he started some theories about CO2 and the effects on climate.

It isn't a theory. Since Arrhenius, the warming effects of CO2 have been established by quantum mechanics. It is a fact that CO2 causes warming, other compound gases also cause warming. As far as infra-red radiation goes, CO2 represents about 9% of the atmosphere. Oxygen and Nitrogen do not figure a great deal as far as infra-red radiation goes.


I will stand by the eons of climate change data...

You haven't understood my comment.
I said statistically you need a few decades of data to establish a trend with in that data, any sample that is less than a few decades results in higher levels of uncertainty (and in the case of temperature data would be classed as weather, seasonal changes etc.).
It has nothing to do with human perceptions of time, it is purely established statistical analysis that can be applied to any sample. It could be doughnuts coming off a production line, the methods of establishing a trend is the same.
22 months ago: Since we aren't talking about making doughnuts or putting together TV sets, the statistical data must cover a larger time period than seconds, minutes, hours, days, years, decades, and centuries. Mother Nature might be able to pull off a climate shift in a few decades, but man is not going to do by himself without help or a dedicated effort. Since we humans are not deliberately trying to modify our climate, it is only chance that Mother Nature and man are in sync and causing a percieved change in climate that makes it "appear" that man is at fault because some people refuse to look beyond a few decades of data. I wonder if they even acknowledge the past Ice Ages and warming periods that the Earth has gone through and in their minds think that there were always four seasons, the sun always shines part of the day and the stars come out at night. Even in recorded history there are years without summer and years without snow in many parts of the planet.

If you are going to use statistics, please remember that everyone know they lie. All you have to do is exclude certain parts of the data, say the previous thousand years? I mean, why use more than a couple of centuries of data when if you only use the period covering the Industrial Revolution up until today you can get all those charts showing an increase in CO2 and other gases AND a possilbe warming trend. Possible warming trend..... yep, seems the world has cooled a bit in the last few decades, or did they doctor that graph too?

CO2 causes warming? Or is CO2 an insulator that hold in heat? I'm pretty sure that if CO2 caused warming we would have to handle it differently, might burn our hands....... Think I'll get me a can of CO2 next time it gets cold, just sit close to it and it'll heat up the place.....

That reminds me, methane has gotten a bad rap too, strange how something that has been here since the first plant died and rotted can be so bad for future plants.....
22 months ago:
...the statistical data must cover a larger time period than seconds, minutes, hours, days, years, decades, and centuries.

The time period is set by the analysis of the data.

Mother Nature might be able to pull off a climate shift in a few decades, but man is not going to do by himself without help or a dedicated effort.

You have completely misunderstood my comment. My comment was about data analysis, not wider issues of climate change or longer periods.
Statistically you only need a few decades of data for a trend to emerge from the noise in the temperature data. Issues beyond that, such as ice ages and warming thousands or millions of years ago aren't an issue for deciding what a minimum period is for determining a trend beyond weather, seasons etc.

You and others are confusing the statistical procedures with the bigger analysis issues.


I wonder if they even acknowledge the past Ice Ages and warming periods that the Earth has gone through...

When you write, you should acknowledge the fact that you are communicating with others.
I'm not sure who you are refering to by 'they'.
We are all here writing, it isn't a them and us situation.

But anyway...

I see you are imposing your cultural knowledge onto the whole planet. Four seasons?
Are you sure that applies to the whole planet :-) ?
Does the sun always shine for part of the day etc.?


CO2 causes warming? Or is CO2 an insulator that hold in heat? I'm pretty sure that if CO2 caused warming we would have to handle it differently, might burn our hands.......

OK, your lack of knowledge on the subject is quite clear in that remark.
Read up on infra-red spectroscopy and bond vibrations.

That reminds me, methane has gotten a bad rap too, strange how something that has been here since the first plant died and rotted can be so bad for future plants.....

Again read up on infra-red spectroscopy and bond vibrations.
Any compound carbon molecule can be a green house gas.
22 months ago: "The time period is set by the analysis of the data."

Only if you want the data to say a certain thing. Like I said, you can make statistics lie for you just by manipulating the data set. We aren't talking about a "trend" that is only going to affect next years grape harvest, expand your scope to include your great, great grandchildren's grandchildren.

Maybe I have, but data analysis and the poor job done by our highly paid scientist and government officials is what has brought us to this point, not believing anything they say because they have lied too many times.

"They" would be anyone who is providing the data that is in quesiton and you can expand it to include anyone who supports thier MMGW theory. Didn't think it was that difficult to figure out.

Next time I won't use local weater patterns, maybe tropical, I've lived there too. Let's see, wet and warm, wetter, realy wet, dry and hot, that's four. Desert, dry and hot, dry and cool, cool and foggy, slightly wet and cool, that's four. No matter where you go, there will be four seasons, they may be all the same, but there will be a difference that can be documented. Sorry, the Earth does rotate about the Sun and that does cause some variation in the weather, everywhere.

What! CO2 sitting in a bottle will really cause it to get warmer? All by itself? With no outside influence at all. Sorry, I really do understand the basic dynamics of CO2 in the atmosphere, but you didn't include a reason CO2 might cause warming, you just through it out there, all by itself, no IR wave acting on it or anything else and then there is the "it gets warmer, CO2 goes up or CO2 goes up and it gets warmer" question, don't think they have figured out which happens first. Let's see, gets warmer, more things are alive and breathing, CO2 goes up, gets warmer, more and more things are alive and breathing......

As for the methane, well I'd rather burn it as fuel than study it.

Daddy told me I wouldn't need more than a sixth grade education, he was so right!!!!!!!
22 months ago: I can see it is pointless discussing this subject with you (and frankly I don't have the time). You still don't understand the trend/stats/period issue and prefer to impose your own beliefs about it on the subject.

You also seem to imagine words I have written and then discuss them.
As you have said yourself, you aren't open to education (apparently because of parental persuasion).
22 months ago: I fully understand that you are using data from a certain set of points in the timeline to further your position on the subject of man-made global warming. Did I miss something? Is this not what you are doing with the trend/stats/period you are postulating as the basis for your position? Come on; tell me you are not moving the data set up and down the timeline so that it fits your theory?

You do not adjust the data to fit the theory. You analyze the data to see if your theory is correct. You have to have some other reason to move the timeline besides making it fit your theory.

I do have a degree, just not in climatology, and it's not basket weaving either, there is the term "Science" within it and it does involve having learned certain aspects of how the weather system on this planet works. I many not be genius level bragging about my MENSA standing but I do alright.

You are easy to mess with.
22 months ago: sixholdens
I fully understand that you are using data from a certain set of points in the timeline to further your position on the subject of man-made global warming. Did I miss something? Is this not what you are doing with the trend/stats/period you are postulating as the basis for your position? Come on; tell me you are not moving the data set up and down the timeline so that it fits your theory?


Where are you getting this from?
You seem to be imposing someone else's thoughts and comments onto me.
All I have explained to you is that for any given series of data there is a minimum period over which the data will show a trend. It has nothing to do with the subject matter, it is purely a result of doing statistical analysis of the data. You can give the data to any scientist and not tell them what it is, they would do the analysis and would give you the minimum time period.
I haven't presented any data so I don't know where you imagine I have.
I think anyone reading this blog can clearly see what has been written.


sixholdens
You are easy to mess with.

And having completed a degree, you spend your time 'messing' with people.
I'll let others judge your comment.
22 months ago: HampyUK said:

The period required is purely down to the nature of the data being analyzed, it has nothing to do with the context that the data has. You certainly don't need millennia to show a climate trend in the temperature.

HampyUK said:

I said statistically you need a few decades of data to establish a trend with in that data, any sample that is less than a few decades results in higher levels of uncertainty (and in the case of temperature data would be classed as weather, seasonal changes etc.).

HampyUK said:

My comment was about data analysis, not wider issues of climate change or longer periods.
Statistically you only need a few decades of data for a trend to emerge from the noise in the temperature data. Issues beyond that, such as ice ages and warming thousands or millions of years ago aren't an issue for deciding what a minimum period is for determining a trend beyond weather, seasons etc.

The subject "is climate change real". After re-reading your posts, I'm not sure where you stand on the subject and believe you are only talking about statistics and how to manipulate the data.

22 months ago: Yes, you can analyze the data and determine where to put your beginning and end points to help weed out the noise to better highlight the data stream you wish to see coming from the database and this "highlighting" may only encompass a few decades. I call it cheating. Why? Because you are taking a segment of data from the whole and saying "Look at this information, it proves that what I'm saying is true". Reality is you are only using the segment of data that corresponds to what you want to see. I say a few decades are not enough information to determine climate change, you say that is all it takes. Sure it might be all it takes to show a trend, but it won't prove climate change, only a trend. Climate change is hundreds or thousands of years long; trends are decades and go both ways, sometimes within a few decades. Climate change is species ending or can cause massive growth; a trend only slows or increases a species ability to survive (usually).

HampyUK said:

You can give the data to any scientist and not tell them what it is; they would do the analysis and would give you the minimum time period.

And it would be a waste of time. Without knowing what they are looking for, they will only give you a period of what re-occurs within the data you have given them or a trend over that period. When it comes to climate, the real trend is over hundreds of years, not decades, maybe even thousands of years or more.

Messing with a person, something I do not do very often and only when they really seem to be in need of it, is just a method of drawing them out. Something you said brought about my mention of attaining a degree, nothing more, it's not like it makes a difference in my life.

You aren't from this part of the world so you took offense when none is intended. We can be on friendly terms, as long as you remember I'm just a dumb hick from the southern US who has spent a little time on this site and is still a newbie, just not as new as you.
22 months ago: sixholdens
The subject "is climate change real". After re-reading your posts, I'm not sure where you stand on the subject and believe you are only talking about statistics and how to manipulate the data.


If you trace carefully back to the original point made by you and Cypress Gang, you'll find that CG commented on the cold weather, I pointed out the minimum period required to assess a climate trend and you started questioning what I had written.

eg. the original issue was about distinguishing short term events that appear as noise in the data from genuine longer term trends.