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Rant

If there is such a thing as infinity what does it mean?

Posted 17 months ago|29 comments|1,237 views
Written by
Paper Tiger
England
What is infinity?

Let us assume, in accordance with the Catholic faith, that the world and universe had a beginning. If God created the universe where did God come from?

If there is no such thing as infinity there must be a beginning and end.

What is that beginning and end?

If there is such a thing as infinity what does it mean? Has the universe always been around, if not what was before the universe?

So the universe started with a bang, what caused the bang?

Now if there is infinity, time and space has no end.

If that is so, infinity must mean everything, and everything means that whatever you or I think or don't think, exists because in infinity, everything must exist or it would not be infinity .

What's all this about the universe expanding? If it is expanding where is it getting the extra space from to expand in to?

Finally if the universe is taking up extra space what's happening to the place where the space came from? Is that place shrinking. ............................................and so on.

UPDATE - 17 months ago
What is infinity?

Let us assume, in accordance with the Catholic faith, that the world and universe had a beginning.

If God created the universe where did God come from?

If there is no such thing as infinity there must be a beginning and end.

What is that beginning and end?

If there is such a thing as infinity what does it mean?

Has the universe always been around, if not what was before the universe?

So the universe started with a bang, what caused the bang?

Now if there is infinity, time and space has no end.

If that is so, infinity must mean everything, and everything means that whatever you or I think or don't think, exists because in infinity, everything must exist or it would not be infinity .

What's all this about the universe expanding?

If it is expanding where is it getting the extra space from to expand in to?

Finally if the universe is taking up extra space what's happening to the place where the space came from? Is that place shrinking.

............................................and so on.
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COMMENTS
17 months ago: I've got an answer but I don't know where to start.
Paper Tiger
Paper Tiger
England
17 months ago: Did your answer have a beginging or has it allways been there.
THE RONBOT HUNTER
THE RONBOT HUNTER
17 months ago: To know the answer you will have to travel to the end of time.

There in about the time where nothing else will exist, you still won't reach the end.

Time is a concept without end.

Distance is just a measurement of time.

I tell it like it is, I pull no punches, tell no lies, and I am as I am

THE ONE AND ONLY RONBOT HUNTER
ALL RIGHTS RESERVED

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Paper Tiger
Paper Tiger
England
17 months ago: Re-To know the answer you will have to travel to the end of time.

Hi ronbotman

If you have to travel to the end of time to find the answer then time must end and infinity does not exist.
17 months ago: Imagine you are in a universe with nothing in it. Well, you couldn't be there, could you? Cogito ergo sum.

In fact, I would go so far as to say the universe has everything in it. Including nothing? Is nothing something? If nothing isn't in the universe, where is it?

I hope this answers your questions.
Paper Tiger
Paper Tiger
England
17 months ago: Re-In fact, I would go so far as to say the universe has everything in it. Including nothing? Is nothing something? If nothing isn't in the universe, where is it?

What is nothing?
17 months ago: Nothing IS what.
17 months ago: Or maybe the absence of things, in a particular sphere.
Paper Tiger
Paper Tiger
England
17 months ago: Re-Or maybe the absence of things, in a particular sphere

But an absence of something means there is something missing, if it is missing it is a place for something. So that makes it something.
17 months ago: Maybe we can come to a clearer conclusion by reframing.

What happens before the beginning of time? Nothing.

What happens after the end of time? Nothing.

Where does nothing exist? Outside time.

Was there always something? For all time, yes.

Will there always be something. For all time, yes.

What about outside time? Where? What the hell am I talking about.

When we say the universe is expanding, what are we comparing it to? The size it used to be. Well, maybe it's not expanding but the things in it are getting smaller and further apart.

Can anything exist outside the universe? Not if by "universe" you mean to encompass all things.

What happens when you bring all the matter and anti-matter together? I'm not sure. Please don't try it.
Paper Tiger
Paper Tiger
England
17 months ago: Re- What happens when you bring all the matter and anti-matter together? I'm not sure. Please don't try it.

As it happens there is much more matter in the universe compared to antimatter, so bringing all of it together would result in all the anti-matter annihilating the equivalent amount of matter, leaving behind most of the known universe.
17 months ago: That's a weight off my mind.
17 months ago: But don't bring the antimatter to Earth, if you can help it.
17 months ago: Matter is not eternal therefore it had a beginning.

Since matter had a beginning it had to have a cause to begin with. The only way to have a cause without a beginning is to have a causeless cause.

That is what is eternal or infinite.
Paper Tiger
Paper Tiger
England
17 months ago: Hi Huey

But if anything that did not have a begining was a causeless cause, the word cause, causeless or not, implies there was a reason, whether that reason is reasonable does not matter. If something has a reason it had to be created. Therefore it is not infinate.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
17 months ago: It's all mumbo jumbo. Science says that you cannot create or destroy matter or energy, only transform it from one to the other. Ergo, the universe has no beginning or ending. Also the mass in an enclosed system cannot be changed, regardless of the processes contained within that system. IF the universe is an enclosed system, then it has always been, and will always be, in one form or another.
17 months ago: A clear and sensible answer. On RantRave, that's kind of baffling in itself.

So, I'll try to make it more confusing.

How do we know the physical laws of the universe are unchangeable?

If you divide the time span of eternity by (for example) a billion billion years worth of scientific data, then it seems that our sample of the laws of the universe is a small one. Sure, the physical laws mightn't have changed over that period, but it's still just a statistical sample.

If I speculate that, after another 100 zillion years, all the atoms in the universe will become tired and the universe will change into half its weight of marshmallows, it will be a long time before anyone proves me wrong.

But, for all I know this might happen tomorrow.
Paper Tiger
Paper Tiger
England
17 months ago: Re-marshmellows

Having an infinite marshmellow sounds good, but where would you keep it?
Paper Tiger
Paper Tiger
England
10 months ago: Re: If you divide the time span of eternity by (for example) a billion billion years.

It does not matter how big, long, short or tall, if it can be divided then there is a given size. If it's a given size, then it has been measured. Infinity cannot be measured, why? Because it is infinite.
Paper Tiger
Paper Tiger
England
17 months ago: Re- It's all mumbo jumbo.
Hi OTHB

If the universe is an enclosed system what is enclosing it? If there is a a form of 'brick wall'? then there must be something outside the 'brick wall'. The only explanation that I can understand, but do not believe, is that the Catholic God is infinite.

Please read: The actual infinity of God in every respect is Catholic dogma.

If you can translate it to science in any way please let me know.
17 months ago: Because scientists cannot create matter, does not mean that it cannot be created. Matter cannot be eternal becuase of entropy. The universe cannot therfore always have been nor will it always be.
Paper Tiger
Paper Tiger
England
17 months ago: Re Therefore not infinite

The actual infinity of God in every respect is Catholic dogma.

In accordance with the Bible and unanimous tradition, the Vatican Council at its Third Session declared God to be almighty, eternal, immense, incomprehensible, infinite in intellect, and will and every perfection.

From outside Himself, God cannot be limited, because, being uncreated, He is absolutely independent of external causes and conditions.

Limitation would be chance; the more so because we can maintain not only that any given finite degree of perfection may be surpassed, but also, in a positive way, that an infinite being is possible.

Moreover, if God were finite, the existence of other gods, His equals or even His superiors in perfection would be possible, and it would be mere chance if they did not exist.

Of such gods, no trace can be found, while on the other hand, God's infinity is suggested by various data of experience, and in particular by our unbounded longing for knowledge and happiness.

The more man a man is, and the more he follows his best thoughts and impulses, the less he is satisfied with merely finite cognitions and pleasures.

That the essential cravings of our nature are not deceptive is demonstrated at once by experience and speculation.

From the infinity of God it is easy to deduce all His perfections:
His unity, simplicity, immutability, etc., though these may be proved also by other means.

Many of God's attributes are nothing else than His infinity in a particular respect, e.g. His omnipotence is but the infinity of His power; His omniscience, the infinity of His knowledge.

Whatever is known to be a pure unalloyed, perfection must be an attribute of God on account of His infinity.

We say a pure unalloyed perfection; for God, just because He is infinite does not possess all perfections in the same way.

Only pure perfections — i.e. those which include in their concept no trace of imperfection whatsoever — are contained in Him formally.

We must therefore ascribe to Him the attributes wise, powerful, amiable, etc., without any restriction, because these are all pure perfections.

Of the so-called mixed perfections, which include besides the positive reality also some imperfections, as e.g., extension, contrition, courage, sound reasoning, and clear judgment, He possesses only the perfection without the connected imperfection.

His is, for example, the all-pervading presence, without composition; love for the good without having committed sin; power without having to overcome fear; knowledge without formal reasoning or formal judgment.

He possesses, therefore, the mixed perfections in a higher form — eminently, i.e. in the only form which is worthy of the infinite.

But even the pure perfections are contained in Him in a higher form than in the creature, in which they are dependent, derived finite.

God's perfection and that of the creature are the same analogically only, not univocally.

The error of Anthropomorphism consists just in this, that it ascribes to God human perfections, without first refining them; whereas Agnosticism errs in its contention that, of all the pure and good qualities which are found in creatures, none can be ascribed to God.

Those modern writers too are mistaken, who hold the best form of religious sentiment to be that which comprises the largest number of elements, and if needs be, of contradictions.

According to them, we should call God both finite and infinite; finite to escape Agnosticism, infinite to escape Anthropomorphism. But it is evident that the highest and absolute truth cannot be a compound of contradictions.

The dogma of God's infinity is not only of the greatest import for theology in the strictest sense of the term but it throws new light upon the malice of sin.

So, on the account of Him Who is offended, becomes objectively
Paper Tiger
Paper Tiger
England
17 months ago: Re- the final part of:

The actual infinity of God in every respect is Catholic dogma.

So, on the account of Him Who is offended, becomes objectively infinite; upon the infinite majesty of the Incarnate Word and the boundless value of His merits and satisfaction:

Then the necessity of the Incarnation, if God's justice required an adequate satisfaction for sin.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
17 months ago: Was going to stay away from the religious aspects of eternity, but it is my faith in the God of Abraham that helps me understand infinity.

Many theories have been proposed to explain existence. Some even include the thought that we are all just software, virtual beings in a virtual world, dreamed up by our own progeny. The truth of the matter is that we will never know for sure, absent the Creator.

There is no such thing as nothing, according to our current understanding of the laws of physics. The concept of zero was not even comprehended by the first mathematicians and astronomers. Men invented zero to attempt to explain the unexplainable. Even if the universe is finite, what lies beyond is not. Time is a byproduct of matter. Fish is not really tasty with cheese sauce.

I have no problem reconciling the fact there could have been nothing before God caused everything to be. And I have no problem with the fact that if there was nothing, where was God? Does that mean that God was nothing also? No, because God does not operate on our plane of physical reality.

Is that what you mean by the laws of physics changing?
Paper Tiger
Paper Tiger
England
17 months ago: Hi OTHB

Re-Was going to stay away from the religious aspects of eternity,

Thank you for the thought and effort you put into your reply.

I was going fine until the fish and cheese sauce kicked in. The concept of taste with the union of both ingrdients changing you perception of both the products.

So the way I see it is the fish is nice on its own, the cheese sauce is good on its own. Combine the two and they are not nice.

Are you saying that the idea of God being infinite on its own is believable. But combining God with space and time and everything else we don't understand hard to rationlise, and that faith is the only way to start to understand the ununderstandable?
Paper Tiger
Paper Tiger
England
17 months ago:
"The more you approach infinity, the deeper you penetrate terror"

— Gustave Flaubert

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."

— Albert Einstien

I am incapable of conceiving infinity, and yet I do not accept finity.

Simone de Beauvoir

If the infinity of the sea may call out thus, perhaps when a man is growing old, calls come to him, too, from another infinity still darker and more deeply mysterious; and the more he is wearied by life the dearer are those calls to him.

Henryk Sienkiewicz

It is good a philosopher should remind himself, now and then, that he is a particle pontificating on infinity.

Ariel Durant

17 months ago: PT - This is very stimulating.

Your are deeper than I gave you initial credit for. Thank you for making me pause.
rotaryseven
rotaryseven
Brighton, MA
17 months ago: If there were an infinite amount of universes out there, which there could be. It means that anything is possible. But my question is, if there are universe's out there with no intelligent life to observe it, does it exist? When a tree falls in the woods with no one to hear it, did it make any sound? If this website had no users, no readers and no posters, would it exist?
Paper Tiger
Paper Tiger
England
10 months ago: Re: When a tree falls in the woods with no one to hear it, did it make any sound? If this website had no users, no readers and no posters, would it exist?

If you believe or understand infinity the answer my friend is yes and no.

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