Economy

Rant

Flat Or Transaction Tax?

Posted 6 months ago|50 comments|483 views
Written by
Altruist
Eugene, OR
The right wing always wants more regressive taxes like the Flat Tax, the misnamed Fair Tax, National Sales Tax or Herman Cain's 9,9,9 plan, because they all shift the burden further onto the middle class and give the millionaires huge cuts in their already low tax burden.

All of these plans are similar to Cain's plan which would raise taxes to 84% of the nation while cutting the taxes of millionaires in half. http://money.cnn.com/2011/10/18/news/eco...

Yes people want a simpler tax, but they also think the rich should pay their fair share. If people have 90% of the money in the country, shouldn't they pay 90% of the taxes in the country? As things are now millionaires pay a lower tax rate than their secretaries. The right wants to make that inequity much much worse! http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/20/busine...

People think that there should be just compensation for a hard day's work. That is what makes civilization and the free market work. But the rich have found ways to circumvent that. They can pay people to do their work and thinking, yet give them most of the money. Wall street can use super fast computers and predictive algorithms to predict when stocks will go up and down so they can buy stocks low and fifteen minutes later sell them high and pocket millions for a few minutes "work". The rich and powerful can "Leverage" other people's money to make hostile takeovers of good productive companies. Then they fire the workers, dismantle the machinery, sell it overseas, and make millions, while destroying our economic base.

Adam Smith would roll over in his grave! The American dream is dead. A hard worker is no longer guaranteed success. The poor work hard at two jobs and still have trouble paying the rent. It takes money to make money. There is no economic justice. There is no fairness in business just war. The rich are getting much richer faster than ever before and the poor are getting poorer, while the middle class is disappearing. http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/archi...

The only way to restore some economic equity is through a progressive tax structure, but right wing is going in the opposite direction. They want to make the 1% even richer and the 99% poorer.

The right bemoans the fact that almost half of the people now are in such dire economic straights that they don't have to pay income taxes. But they still struggle to come up with enough to pay payroll taxes, State and local taxes.

Yes we should do away with our complicated Income tax system with it's tens of thousands of pages that only the rich can navigate by hiring tax attorneys. All of those pages have thousands of loopholes that the rich can take advantage of.

Rick Perry is the latest on the right proposing a flat tax. The only question is will he eliminate all deductions or just the unpopular ones. Will the rate be 18% or 28% . Will the millionaires get a 90% tax cut or just an 80% tax cut? Will the poor have to pay 60% more or will their taxes double or triple?

I would also like to propose a flat tax. It would just have one rate that rich and poor alike pay. I propose that everyone pay only 0.20% tax every time any money is moved. This should produce as much revenue as the Income tax and it can be done automatically, by the banks any time funds are transferred. This is as simple as it gets and there are no tax forms and no cheating, and if foreign or international corporations wanted to deal in the US they would pay the same rate.

When someone buys $10 worth of food they only pay 2 cents tax. The farmer when he gets $2 for the food only pays .4 cent, the trucker pays about .2 cent, the food processor pays about 6 cents tax.

That isn't much money so how does it add up to be as much as the Income Tax?

Remember that guy that makes millions turning stock around in fifteen minutes? That three million dollar transaction would contribute $6000 in tax. That is still not much compared to the $2,994,000 profit, but this sort of thing goes on a LOT!

Foreign Exchange currency speculation is $3.2 trillion per day! Just that one source would bring in $ 6.4 billion in revenue each day! http://www.quickoverview.com/finance/for...

Would this harm the free market? NO. In fact currency speculation is harmful and has destroyed entire nations.

Remember that guy that leverages his money 30 to one to make a hostile takeover? For every one of his dollars spent, there are 30 dollars that just appear on paper. But he would have to pay taxes on those thirty paper dollars if he wanted to make the deal. This would discourage this type of reckless gambling with other people's money, but the rate is so low that it wouldn't discourage legitimate business deals. The 4-banks who received government bailout's in 2008, have $235trillion in derivatives on their books! Those derivatives would bring in $470 billion dollars of revenue! http://usawatchdog.com/four-biggest-bank...

Derivatives are another financial invention that have absolutely no purpose in the real free market world. Their only purpose is to make money for investors, so no one would be hurt (except those investors) if they stopped trading derivatives altogether. Not one house would be lost and no factories would close. Once again the 0.2 % tax is usually lower than brokerage fees so it won't hurt honest business deals.

Currently all of Europe is considering a much smaller .05% financial transaction tax. http://www.stockmarkettoday.cc/eu-formal...

A global FTT was to be considered at the G20 meeting in November, but objections by mainly the US and Canada made them postpone that decision till next year. http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/opi...

An FTT would tax mostly the 1% and the Occupy Wall Street movement is planning on protesting the G20 meeting to pressure them to instate an FTT. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news...
UPDATE - 6 months ago
My idea is not original. The original proposal came from James Tobin, Ph.D., a Nobel laureate economist at Yale. http://www.ceedweb.org/iirp/

Tobin's tax would have just applied to worldwide currency speculation and was intended to end global suffering, but the same concept could eliminate ALL taxes.

An Automated Payment Transaction Tax of 0.6%, could replace all federal and state income, corporate, excise, and estate taxes. See: http://www.apttax.com

This tax would be automatically deducted by the banks, every time money is moved, just like a small bank fee. Very simple, no tax forms, no tax preparation, and no cheating. The poor would hardly feel this tax (6 cents for $10 purchase) It would tax the 1% more than the 99%.
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COMMENTS
6 months ago: Al. It ain't YOUR money.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
6 months ago: Ah...the retarded cousin has returned with the awesome one liners not related to anything...
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
6 months ago: A national sales tax (transaction tax) would dramatically increase revenue (even if the income tax was reduced/removed) because the millions of illegal immigrants in this country would then be FORCED into pay their taxes (the illegals still shop at walmart).
6 months ago: Have the OWS filed their tax statements on the over 1/2 million dollars that they have sitting in a BANK?
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
6 months ago: How is that related to the topic at all? Do you really just sit around and spew your ignorant crap no matter what the topic is about?

Are you suggesting that our tax code is perfect the way it is and such you have the time and energy to spew crap about nothing instead of make a point?
6 months ago: Sorry to send you back to grade school. The post is about "We are the 99%" and what they think is "fair" for everyone, excluding them. No? I have a good eye doctor's phone number if you need it.
6 months ago: Have the OWS filed for 501c3 status with the IRS?

Would they then in fact be a Corporation?
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
6 months ago: How is that related to the topic at all? Do you really just sit around and spew your ignorant crap no matter what the topic is about?
Are you suggesting that our tax code is perfect the way it is and such you have the time and energy to spew crap about nothing instead of make a point?
6 months ago: What is the topic? Who needs to pay taxes?
6 months ago: What would the writer say when the OWS 501c3 spends it's IRS non-reported monies on promoting it's political goals? Huh?
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
6 months ago: How is that related to the topic at all? Do you really just sit around and spew your ignorant crap no matter what the topic is about?
Are you suggesting that our tax code is perfect the way it is and such you have the time and energy to spew crap about nothing instead of make a point?
6 months ago: Truth hurts. doesn't it? Can't argue that fact, eh?
Altruist
Altruist
Eugene, OR
6 months ago: So all of you guys would prefer to cut the millionaire's taxes in half so the 99% have to make up the difference?

The Occupy movement's tax status doesn't have anything to do with the national question. They are just a bunch of leaderless folk that have come together to promote justice and equality.

the Alliance for Global Justice collects and process OWS donations and pass the money on to them as a project of the AfGJ. In IRS parlance they take "responsibility for all financial and programmatic matters" of OWS. They are responsible to include their financial reporting as part of AFGJ's when they file their annual tax return, which for non-profits is called a form 990. They are accountable legally and financially to prove that all expenditures by OWS are within the IRS's tax-exempt rules. If the IRS audits AFGJ, OWS will have to show supporting evidence of the numbers they report. Occupy Wall Street's obligation to AFGJ is to provide the accounting and receipts AFGJ will need for the IRS and to not jeopardize AFGJ tax-exempt status through any actions of theirs.
Altruist
Altruist
Eugene, OR
6 months ago: I would think that anyone except the millionaires would prefer a FTT, because it would decrease YOUR taxes (Your Money Red).

You corporate puppets would rather pay a 20% sales tax than a .6% sales tax because you reflexively condemn any progressive ideas. Your owners have turned you into masochists that love their pain. The rest of the country who doesn't belong to the Tea Party doesn't enjoy the pain the 1% imposes on them.

The FTT would supercharge the economy. People would go out there and start spending again. Businesses would be delighted because the tax system would be simple and understandable and much less than the 35% corporate tax.

Because people have a lot more money, demand would increase and businesses would expand and start hiring again.

Perry's Flat tax proposal is a joke and would only bring in about half the revenue we are bringing in now, so the deficit would explode as bad as it did for the last ignorant Texan who didn't understand basic economics.
6 months ago: It's going to be a hard sell Al when OWS is 1/2 of a Millionaire the refuses to pay a single penny in tax. All the while pointing fingers towards those OTHER RICH people.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
6 months ago: Once again...why is it that you all the sudden have the authority to tell them when they have to file the taxes? If they are a corporation they have to file every quarter...which isn't right now...if that money is with an individual they don't have to file until April...stop watching faux news and ignoring the point. It is hilarious when you teabaggers b!tch about the OWS movement when you are exactly the same...only now that a group with different political beliefs than your own wants the same thing that you had been whining for for a year (jobs) now you tell them they are lazy bums and to get a job...your a hypocritical idiot.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
6 months ago: you're*
6 months ago: Is TCG a Teabagger? He doesn't sound like any of them that I have met. My Teabagger friends have no problem with OWS. other then they wish to organize with them.
6 months ago: Sorry Babe. The Tax Code has the authority... Read it...

Corporations must file every quarter.
6 months ago: Your "Tea Bagger" friends tell you? Don't get out much. That will never happen for several reasons.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
6 months ago: I already said if they are a corporation they are required to file every quarter. What your tiny little pea brain seems to forget is that neither you or the government can tell them when to start the fiscal year. If they decided their fiscal year started on September 30th then they are not required to file the quarterly return until...(this may be hard for someone as dumb as you, but 12 divided by 4 is?)...December 30th.
6 months ago: Show me the date document of incorporation, the request for 501c3 and the books of all moneys before those dates. Somebody is going to jail.
6 months ago: Here are your written words babe. Look above to verify and then delete...

Once again...why is it that you all the sudden have the authority to tell them when they have to file the taxes? If they are a corporation they have to file every quarter...which isn't right now...

You know for a fact their first filing was not due last quarter? Prove it.

Until the all you will get from me is... Yep, their first IRS Tax filing is past due.
6 months ago: My tiny little pea brain? I thought they voted on everything in the General Assembly. Would this mean there is a shadow government in control of Occupy that the General Assembly has no control of?
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
6 months ago: Why don't you show the date since you are the one trying to prove a point...why dont you get off your lazy b!tching a$$ and do some research...that is if you are smart enough
6 months ago: I already have...July this year (2011)...It was posted a long time ago. You want to know what city?
6 months ago: I should not be taxed more just because I have more money! However I should be ready to pay more for better goods and services, this includes higher taxes for these better goods and services. The government should also be held accountable for where it spends these taxpayer dollars. For example I do not approve of the comprehensive healthcare and retirement packages that the congress gets. That is where the tax cuts should begin. Another area of excessive spending is federal and state contracts. They are notoriously overpriced.
The other area of high taxpayer spending is on Social security and Medicare but this is because people have come to depend on them because these are the first areas that private corporations make budgetary cuts, in order to increase their profits. Laws that would prevent this in the US and tariffs and sanctions that would discourage this abroad would reduce dependency on them and free up these public funds.
Finally stricter control of what direction public money for education goes to would ensure that the US has better educated human resources. There is no reason why we should have a surplus of technical jobs with nary a person to fill them.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
6 months ago: I would have to agree with the national sales tax, in lieu of the income tax. The millionaires are paying far beyond "their fair share", and 47% of the people pay nothing at all. The rich already pay the greater bulk of the tax load. They do not use the vast majority of the services provided by our tax dollars. Where is the fairness in asking a small group of people to foot the entire bill for the whole country? I for one do not feel any pain imposed on me by the rich.

But the Financial Transaction tax has it's merits also. Some banks are charging a fee to cash a check if it is over a certain amount. So I don't think there would be much hassle in instating a tax for moving money in amounts, say, over $10,000.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
6 months ago: In other words, it doesn't have to be an either/or decision. The income tax in its current form needs to go, and a national sales tax on everything, goods, services, real estate, no loopholes, no minimums, no maximums, would insure that everyone pays his fair share. The poor would naturally pay less taxes than the rich because they would purchace less, and the rich would still pay the bulk.

Then the FTT would be gravy, and should be used wisely, such as paying down the debt as quickly as possible, until such time as it is no longer needed.
6 months ago: I would have to disagree about the theory that the rich do not use, if not a vast majority then at least a larger share of the resources and services provided by the federal government.

For example: If your invested in Apple then you use the resources of roads and airports, shipping docks maritime protection, and a host of other "resources" involved with the manufacturer and sales of apple products to earn your money.

Warren Buffet for example in the day to day of making his paycheck consumes millions of dollars of federal services his trucks wear down the highways, his goods require inspection, His various holdings are all subject to what ever over site and thus he is responsible for a ton of money being spent and resources consumed.


People who have more money use more services
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
6 months ago: Slim
Here is the 2010 budget breakdown. I just don't see how the rich or corporations are using the majority, or even a large portion, of the goods and services provided by our Federal tax dollars.


21%- Medicare, Medicaid and Chip

20% - Defense and security

20% - Social Security

14% - Safety Net Programs

6% - Interest on debt

7% - Benefits for retired Federal Employees

3% - Transportation Infrastructure (including docks, train stations, roads, etc.)

2% - Scientific and medical research

3% - Education

1% - International spending (foreign aid)

2% - Everything else

6 months ago: It's probably those evil, nasty, war mongering corporations that are wasting the - 20% - Defense and security.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
6 months ago: 55% of the budget on welfare...so sad
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
6 months ago: I think that the national sales tax is the only way to go. It would dramatically increase the revenues because the millions upon millions of illegal immigrants would be paying federal taxes...

As far as the rich and fairness. I find it amusing that the tea party (poor people) are screaming to defend extraordinarily rich people from having to pay 3% more income tax but those same poor people see no problem what so ever with asking teachers making 40-50,000/year to take a pay cut to 25 or 30,000/year. Teachers are charged with educating the future of America...yet tea party dbags (who supposedly care about this country) want to destroy america by defending an extra 3% of ridiculously rich people's money who got rich off of their own backs. No rich person did it on his/her own...most took advantage of people, took advantage of government funding and breaks, use the roads rail and air transit systems and paid crap wages to employees so that they could keep the money themselves to live a life of opulence and excess (the owner of a company down the street from us drives a Ferrari while most of his workers drive busted 1980something Hondas and Chryslers and struggle on minimum wage...I wonder how that guy got rich...
6 months ago: PH. What do you drive as opposed to the workers in your plant....Forgot...your plant is a UNION controlled operation. Are you pissed because your underlings drive better cars than you? They probalbly go out to dinner with the wifey more also...

Tell us again how many worthless degrees you have mounted on your wall.
6 months ago: Perfect? Are the Illegals paying their share in your state? You approve of a "Federal" sales tax because it would tax the Illegals? Forcing them to pay into the tax system? Tell us again what kind of tax Illinois collects.

Would that be a state income tax or a sales tax?

What is good for the Goose should also be good for the Gander.

When does the consumption tax begin in Illinois?
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
6 months ago: Oh right...your too stupid to listen...my plant is non union...of course you will have some little school girl/"i cyber bully people because I have a tiny penis" response to that, but whatever
6 months ago: Just because you admit to have a tiny penis when it comes to unions...don't expect people with huevoes to cry for you... No? Can I post your words to prove you don't have enough huevoes to stand up to the UNIONS?

Try this....

http://www.rantrave.com/Rant/Unions-are-...

and YOU say....

(This is in Illinois which is a Union Shop state) we have to add to our bid the amount of money it would be at average union wages.

Like it or not...your UNION when you pay their scale and dues to get a job.
6 months ago: I can't wait until they issue a proclaimation demanding a "Jew Tax".
6 months ago: Forgot. The demand for the "Jew Tax" has already been made. What is the next group that they demand to collect more from? Can anyone that isn't an Atheist make a wildcard guess?
Altruist
Altruist
Eugene, OR
6 months ago: OWS hasn't incorporated yet. So far they are just a bunch of leaderless folk unified only in their anger at the injustice of the income of the 1% going up, while at the same time their tax rates have plummeted. The 1% live in opulence and they have all of the power so all of the benefits go to them, while the rest of the nation is in a depression and powerless. We have lost our democracy and the Constitution has been destroyed because the government is no longer working for We the People it is only working for the 1%.

I think it is fair that the people who own 90% of the wealth in the country should pay 90% of the taxes.

Illegals do pay taxes and they are propping up the entire Social Security System because while they pay taxes they don't collect SS.

National Sales taxes are even more regressive than flat taxes because the rich purchase a much smaller percentage of their income than the poor, who spend everything they earn.

The entire theory of money and compensation is being subverted by the rich.

If you go back to the theory of money You either trade equal labor for another's labor or produce, or you give them a promissory note equal to both the labor or the product purchased.

Is a CEO' labor worth 300 times that of one of his workers, especially after he trashes the company?

Does the hedge fund manager deserve a salary 1000 times greater than a teacher who is determining the future of the nation?

Such excessive wealth has nothing to do with the free market system, it is entirely outside monetary theory. It is pure unadulterated greed.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
6 months ago: "...people who own 90% of the wealth in the country should pay 90% of the taxes. ..."

I never understood that mindset. Just because my neighbor has more than me, I don't feel that it is fair that he be forced to share it. In my opinion, it is legalized theft. It didn't cost me or you a penny for him to become wealthy, or for him to be born wealthy. We would have slogged along in our mendacity with or without him.

"...Illegals prop up Social Security ..."

While there is no way to know the exact number, what with them being here illegally and all, it has been estimated that they contribute about 1% of all SS dollars collected, about $7 billion. Then in return, they cost US taxpayers about $346 billion per year. According to the 2005 Bear Stearns Report, about half of illegals work off the books, and do not pay $401 billion in taxes that they owe.

Regressive tax? It's a tax. There's nothing regressive about it. You buy something from our economy, our society, you pay a tax on it. That's what the Progressive mantra was, wasn't it; "The rich use more and benefit more from the economy, and from society, from the collective". So let them pay a direct tax on whatever they personally consume, in the way of goods and services. They buy more, so they pay more. You buy less, so you pay less. Perfectly fair. How much money I make is none of your business, and none of the government's business. I've had people who work for me ask "How much are we making on this job?" I invariably tell them, "How much the job brings shouldn't concern you. You should be more concerned with how much YOU are making on this job."
We could even make necessities like approved medical treatments tax exempt. Maybe food, not sure about that yet.

The theory of labor compensation is not being subverted by the rich. It is being subverted by the working class. Have you been to a doctor lately? How is his time worth $145.00 for a ten minute office visit? Have you hired a plumber lately? $110.00 for the first hour. It's not how hard of labor it is, it's what you know. I personally do my best to charge reasonable rates for what I do, but I know I don't get paid what I'm worth. I couldn't survive on such a low wage.

"Is a CEO' labor worth 300 times that of one of his workers..."

Is a Picasso worth $5 million? Anything, including leadership, is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. CEOs do not pay themselves, they are paid by the company (and the shareholders) they work for.

"It is pure unadulterated greed."

Again, none of our business if they want to be greedy. What are we, Islamists that feel we need to regulate morality at a national level? Most of the money created is pretend money anyway. It is created every time money is moved into or out of a Federal bank. It isn't like there is less money in circulation now because greedy CEOs have it stuffed in their matresses. There is more money in circulation now than there was last year, ten years ago, twenty years ago.

6 months ago: Al. Explain to us who the "Alliance for Global Justice" is and what they do.

Your right about OWS not being incorporated. They are "sponsored" by the 501c3 Alliance for Global Justice.

Is OWS political or social? Is the Alliance for Global Justice political or social?

How much more hypocrisy do you think they can spew before being called on it?

Are you willing to take the first step?

http://afgj.org/?p=1787#more-1787
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
6 months ago: It really doesn't matter what or who the OWS movement is or isn't. It will die out, and they will all go home with their warm and fuzzy memories. That is, unless they get really organized and start breaking things. We're just one nationwide protest-gone-wrong away from martial law.
Then they'll be rounded up and shipped off to FEMA for a different kind of Occupy movement. Shame that one of their own would turn on them, but it's a reality.
6 months ago: Yep. I think you made my martial law point.

As to your thinking about food being taxed. Try this.

Non-cooked / non-served (grocery) - not taxed

Cooked / Served (resturant) - taxed

Yep. You might even get health benefits from that when all of those obese kids and parents have to lay off of McDonalds.
6 months ago: You really think it does not matter "what or who the OWS movement is or isn't"?

It does matter. How can they (with a straight face) ask the Tea Party to join them in their struggle when they are "sponsored" by a commie non-profit that says it's number one objective is support to the commie Sandinista's?

The fruit does not fall far from the tree...

OWS fruits = Commie Sandinista tree

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandinista_...
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
6 months ago: I didn't know that. I bet 95% of the people at the OWS rallies don't know it either. I think if they did, they would high-tail it out of there.

Not very honest of the organizers, to keep their real agenda quiet. I guess the track record in Nicaragua since the Sandinista's took power is not that impressive.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
6 months ago: Hey, but at least it ain't the Muslim Brotherhood. Yet.
6 months ago: I'll ask again but include Perfect Horizon this time.

Al and Perfect Horizon. Explain to us who the "Alliance for Global Justice" is and what they do.

http://afgj.org/?p=1787#more-1787

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