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Rant

Fire Every D.C. Bureaucrat

Posted 27 months ago|70 comments|850 views
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There is a magnificent, new memorial in Washington D.C. between the Washington Monument and the Lincoln Memorial that may ultimately make honest Americans very angry.

It is beautiful. It has a beautiful pond with fountains on either end surrounded by an oval fortress that has 2 entrances on the north and south.

On the "Pacific" side of the memorial, some of President Roosevelt's words are engraved.

The words, as written are:

"PEARL HARBOR
DECEMBER 7, 1941, A DATE WHICH WILL LIVE IN INFAMY…NO
MATTER HOW LONG IT MAY TAKE US TO OVERCOME THIS
PREMEDITATED INVASION, THE AMERICAN PEOPLE, IN THEIR
RIGHTEOUS MIGHT, WILL WIN THROUGH TO ABSOLUTE VICTORY."

President Franklin D. Roosevelt

You wonder why they left out the following ending of the quote?

"with confidence in our armed forces, with the unbounding determination of our people,we will gain inevitable triumph so help us G-d."

Moderates, let's elect some new representatives to go up there and after they slap the you know what out of some DC bureaucrats, fire them all.

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COMMENTS
27 months ago: Red, your being petty. Really to think they might not engrave the entire paragraph. It's there. You just have to follow it down below ground level. Might have to dig a bit. I wonder what would happen if a few thousand showed up with shovels?
scotmanster
scotmanster
27 months ago: Is not that the truth RSG why should we accept the watered down version when we could have given the glory to the one who once blessed this nation and that is God. How can people be proud of America if they can not accept the whole reality of what this great nation was built on. They pick and choose what to be proud of and inevitably say "lets change the rest". This is not the American way and anything less then that is treasonous.
27 months ago: Better yet. Pitch Forks!
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
27 months ago: And torches.
27 months ago: and water balloons.

When we were touring the capital building, before we went into the gallery to watch the House deliberate about honoring each other(and soon after the Tea Party), I asked everyone of the 20 someodd Capital policeman that "detected" me if he had any spare water balloons.

All but one laughed heartily. One Police Woman didn't take her eyes off of me.
Chris D
Chris D
Seattle, WA
27 months ago: "Fire Every D.C. Bureaucrat"

Yes, because those elected officials wouldn't be replaced by other elected officials.

This will probably fall on deaf ears.

It's called a democracy. Everyone votes for these men and women. It's confusing to talk to folks with your line of thinking. A year ago, we cast our ballots, and many people were placed into office.

I know you disagree with many of the people in power right now, but I don't get why you guys joke about torches and pitchforks. Do you dislike our democratic process that much?
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
27 months ago: Actually this nation was not built on God. Most of the founders were non-Christians, but were rather Deists.

Lets look at the Declaration of Independence for a moment. Many of the initial wording was changed to be secular. For example the "Self evident" part was originally "Sacred and undeniable". The founders of this nation were fighting religious oppression, that was one of the reasons that this nation was formed. This is a secular nation, get over it.

More importantly, who cares if they left out the end of the paragraph. The important part of the paragraph is there, why not just enjoy the memorial and not whine about petty issues.
scotmanster
scotmanster
27 months ago: For me Chris it is not about who is up their..to be honest the majority of politicians are the same. More lies more corruption.

What matters to me is they left the last part of the quote out..they pick and choose what America is. When someone wants to fundamentally change this country that is when I start gripping.

So some of us voted them is that what your getting at? Like we have any choice but to pick the lesser of two evils..It is not about disliking the democratic process Chris either. If you want to call the democratic process railroading other candidates by not giving them an ounce of air time throughout the election, to get them exposure to voice their stances, then that is your prerogative. There is nothing democratic about that. The problem I have is with people ignoring the facts you need to have generate millions upon millions of dollars to even run in a election.

If that is what you call a fair election then you would agree that Hitler was the best man when he was appointed Chancellor as well. He certainly could not have been appointed if he did not have the monetary backing of a select group of wealthy elitists in Germany. Is not that what our elections are about money? I mean really without money Hitler would have been another nobody.

I asked my niece during the last election campaign if she could honestly answer me why some candidates held so much mainstream media airtime and others didn't? She told me it was because those other candidates have nothing good to say. If that was a honest answer for her and other college students, then these bureaucrats certainly know how to use the system to their favor. So you still want to call this the democratic way Chris?
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
27 months ago: For some other examples:

Article 6, Section 3 of the Constitution of the United States of America: "no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States."

Article XI of the 1796 Treaty of Tripoli (Written under George Washington and signed by John Adams): "The United States is in no sense founded on the Christian Religion"

The following people were confirmed Deists: Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Paine, James Madison and George Washington.

27 months ago: You first perfect.

You liberals have a short memory. Lief Erickson came here first to spread Christianity. Christopher Columbus erected a CROSS where he FIRST came ashore....but what do you care about history? Your wrong and you wish.

Chris.

I'm not sure how you're missing it either. It's supposed to be a republic, not a democracy. You liberals, socialists, progressives, whatever you want to be called, don't exactly major in history, Do you?

What joke?

Tyrants sucked 250 years ago too.
scotmanster
scotmanster
27 months ago: I should add it was not even just the amount of airtime they received, look back on previous election campaign debates and see who held the most debate time.

People need to start opening their eyes and stop being so lazy and complacent. I could see why people want to trust, trust is important but as the age old saying goes ignorance is bliss.
27 months ago: Chris, the real term is REPUBLIC - defined as a representative democracy.

Your confusing the right to vote (democracy).
scotmanster
scotmanster
27 months ago: Oh Heavenly err I mean Perfect... No one said our Government was based on the Christian Religion strictly it is a lie to say so, you are right.

The problem is you can not talk about our Republic without accounting the people and their beliefs when this great Nation was first conceived. That is something you can never take away from us because we know our history. God was back then and is now the corner stone of this great country. What you have now is people trying usurp that truth. No matter how much you debate it it will not make it any less true. You certainly can never make a fact false.

scotmanster
scotmanster
27 months ago: "Chris, the real term is REPUBLIC - defined as a representative democracy.

Your confusing the right to vote (democracy)."

Totally agree with that.
27 months ago: Did I miss a post somewhere? Perfect is equating the use of GOD as Christian? Am I reading this Perfect load correct? I'll go all the way back to the top and scan every word. I do not recall anyone posting Christians except you.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
27 months ago: @ Redstate guy...again Not a liberal.

Christians are the only people who whine about this crap constantly.

And God was not and never has been the building block of this country.

I do care about history, and that is why I get mad when people misrepresent this country's heritage as being based on Christian principals.

Christopher Columbus was a Spaniard...this country was founded by Englishmen who were sick of religious oppression from the motherland.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
27 months ago: Also @ Redstateguy...Leif Erickson was not a founder of this nation FYI (at least in the sense of Founding Father)
27 months ago: I tried to get this out before Perfect made a bigger juvenile @$$ of himself. My bad for being slow. Perfect are you on medication? You seem to be the one whinning here.

To make such a statement is just too funny as your type (meaning the global warming/save the world) are the biggest whinners in the entire existance of the universe.

What a PUNKSTER. What an idiot.

Here is the reply I started to post..

Chris, Your correct. A year ago ballots were cast for representatives to represent the people. The problem is that those chosen representatives are crossing the peoples line and not following the call of the citizenry. Or are you one of those that won't accept the fact that the majority of the voters are ready to storm the capital. With force if necessary. You can't be that blind.
27 months ago: perfect.
Your not a liberal?

And I'm not sitting here barefoot and in need of a shave too.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
27 months ago: Forgive me...I know it is difficult for conservatives to distinguish between factual, rational thought patterns supported with evidence and "Whining".

That is why I get frustrated when religious conservatives try to lie to the people of this country by saying that it was founded on religious principals.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
27 months ago: @Redstateguy: See my post "Little Miss Perfect" for my response to the liberal thing.
26 months ago: perfect

what frustrates conservatives is liberals trying to rewrite history
scotmanster
scotmanster
26 months ago: "I do care about history, and that is why I get mad when people misrepresent this country's heritage as being based on Christian principals."

Actually PH you mentioned Christianity we just mentioned God.

I have read many books about when our Constitution was formed and read the notes of James Madison of that Constitutional Convention. George Washingto did infact believe in God.

This quote is of Benjamin Franklin taken at the Constitutional Convention when our Constitution was
formed..

"I have lived, Sir, a long time and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth -- that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without his aid? We have been assured, Sir, in the sacred writings that "except the Lord build they labor in vain that build it." I firmly believe this; and I also believe that without his concurring aid we shall succeed in this political building no better than the Builders of Babel: We shall be divided by our little partial local interests; our projects will be confounded, and we ourselves shall be become a reproach and a bye word down to future age. And what is worse, mankind may hereafter this unfortunate instance, despair of establishing Governments by Human Wisdom, and leave it to chance, war, and conquest."

The belief in God did play a huge role in the making of our country.

"And God was not and never has been the building block of this country."

This is only one quote PH I can digg up many more from the stack of books I have here at home about when this country was first formed.

You are twisting words again you said "Leif Erickson" was never a founding father. Again no one said he was a founding father, you are simply trying to grasp at straws to provoke a fight.

scotmanster
scotmanster
26 months ago: The problem with all this is it seems to me that it is not soo much about freedom of religion when it comes to this country for you. But that you will twist the argument so much because of your hatred for what this country is actually is. Any recognition of God and this country is appalling to you. It seems to me like it is almost a hatred.
scotmanster
scotmanster
26 months ago: "George Washingto" is a typo I meant to write Benjamin Franklin.
scotmanster
scotmanster
26 months ago: "Chris, the real term is REPUBLIC - defined as a representative democracy.

Your confusing the right to vote (democracy)."

I would have to agree. Although you will never find it in a history textbook at school, the forefathers had a strong distrust in a true democracy.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
26 months ago: @Redstateguy: I am not the one trying to rewrite history. I gave you very plain and simple examples from HISTORY that prove that this country was NOT founded on religious framework.

@Scotmanster: I assure you I have read way more about this than you. I never said any of those people were Atheists...I said they were Deists (if you don't know what this is perhaps you should try a dictionary or wikipedia before talking about it like you know more than you do). Of course they believed in God, just in a completely different way than the conservative Christians try to twist the founding into something that it is not.

I have no problem with freedom of religion, so long as people practice their religion in on their own time, and not try to force a country that was founded on secular beliefs to convert to religious doctrine.
scotmanster
scotmanster
26 months ago: "@Scotmanster: I assure you I have read way more about this than you."

I am sure you have. Kinda like our last conversation we had right?. When you want to get off the anti-Christian kick and start really debating I will be here. I will be sure to support my debate with some facts like I did in our last debate and this one as well.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
26 months ago: I am waiting for you to start doing that since you never have.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
26 months ago: Also, please notice that I have provided facts about the founding of this nation and its relation to religion (see the post from a while ago with direct references to the Constitution, the Treaty of Tripoli and several other pieces of evidence about the founders. You choose to ignore this and disregard it as "anti-Christian" because you have no actual response because it shows the true intent of the founders.
scotmanster
scotmanster
26 months ago: The part about the majority being Deists is just plain wrong and not truthful. Maybe you should reread your books especially reread my quote of Benjamin Franklin. A deist does not think God intervenes in the affairs of mankind.

"I have lived, Sir, a long time and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth -- that God governs in the affairs of men."

A deist would not say this, must I go down a whole list of the forefathers quotes to prove you wrong?
scotmanster
scotmanster
26 months ago: Even if I did go down the whole list of quotes and prove you wrong,and I can trust me, you still would not admit it.
scotmanster
scotmanster
26 months ago: The biggest majority of our founding Fathers were actually Protestant if I recall correctly. They certainly believe God intervenes in mankind affairs not God abandoned mankind once he created this world like a deist believes..
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
26 months ago: You cannot prove that they were not Deists. It is not possible because the names I gave were in fact Deists. Not all the founders were, just the important ones. There is no point to arguing with ignorant people like you. Try reading SCHOLARLY material written by educated people with Masters degrees and Ph.D.'s not evangelical crap that desperately tries to prove something that isn't true.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
26 months ago: Benjamin Franklin: "Some books against Deism fell into my hands. . . It happened that they wrought an effect on my quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a thorough Deist."
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
26 months ago: Benjamin Franklin: "Lighthouses are more helpful than churches."
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
26 months ago: Benjamin Franklin: "In the affairs of the world, men are saved, not by faith, but by the lack of it."

Very Deist statement
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
26 months ago: Thomas Jefferson:

"Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced an inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth."
scotmanster
scotmanster
26 months ago: I was just going to say the same thing to you but I thought I would be polite. I was going to say don't confuse the anti-Christian propaganda you find on the internet about Desists and the Forefathers and their true beliefs.

I just proved that one of the founding fathers was not a deist. I have read all his quotes and speech's too. They do not reverberate he was a deist at all. Quite to the contrary.

Kinda funny you should bring up Christian books I don't read them. Never had and never will. I don't need someone to tell me what God is all about just like I don't a Masters degree to disprove a well educated person.
26 months ago: Yeah Scot! You ignorant pompous twit!

Try reading about how all of those highly educated scholars act!

Like the ones that have been hiding emails and reports about climate change for over a decade.

Links to: Hackers leak e-mails, stoke climate debate

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/21/science/earth/21climate.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/11/20/AR2009112004093.html?hpid=sec-nation

http://www.nationalpost.com/news/world/story.html?id=2248873
scotmanster
scotmanster
26 months ago: Neither of those quotes support they were a deist.


scotmanster
scotmanster
26 months ago: I would have to agree TCG anyone can become a college professor if they put their mind to it. But the fact is most of them now lack an ounce of common sense.
scotmanster
scotmanster
26 months ago: I would like to add The Thomas Jefferson quote just proves that he was against the Christian religion it does not prove he was a deist.

He also said..

“I can never join Calvin in addressing his god. He was indeed an Atheist, which I can never be; or rather his religion was Daemonism. If ever man worshipped a false god, he did.”

He certainly was not a Atheist either. It is interesting he considers Calvin an atheist and considering his religion was Daemonism. But it certainly did not make Jefferson a full fledged deist. If anything Jefferson did not tie himself to any one belief. I imagine his Anglican upbringing had alot to do with it and was influenced by deist but that did not make him a full fledged deist like I said. What it does show you is he had almost a hatred for Christianity but that is not the point I been trying to make. I never said Christianity was the corner stone of our great Nation I said God was. Was he a full fledged deist? No I just think he had a bad bout with religion.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
26 months ago: Ok, well I am not going to try explaining Deism and its origins and its followers until you have done some serious reading of Enlightenment thinkers.

Also, anybody can be a college professor huh? It's not hard work? Your right Ph.D.'s are really easy to get...but then again I don't blame you for lashing out at academia...most people don't like things they can't understand.
26 months ago: You have already been brainwashed.

"most people don't like things they can't understand."

That is just too funny. Maybe the fact is that you and your little group of academia while living in a vacuum or a test tube can't understand common sense.

Big difference. Good luck in your upcoming 60 years in a sterile lab.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
26 months ago: I think, maybe a little wet behind the ears, but definitely a good candidate for our new Noni.

And yes, a PhD is fairly easy to come by. I have several in my family, and more than 50 of my friends hold PhD s in one discipline or another. I would have to say that the bottle-washers have far more common sense than the professors.

Lofty, but ambiguous and contradictory sentiments cloud every issue when dealing with the "enlightened", who somehow, in their search for shades of gray, have lost their ability to discern black from white.
26 months ago: My next door neighbors have both a (he) Masters and (she) PhD. They are both social morons. He wears a surgical mask when cutting the yard with a lawnmower. Go figure.
scotmanster
scotmanster
26 months ago: Just like the push for socialism somehow the true history gets distorted for the sake of the cause. Reminds me of the cap and trade argument recently and the EPA lawyers admitting cap and trade will never work. Just so happens Obama wants to silence them too. College professors can try and rewrite history, they can leave out pertinent quotes just for the sake of the cause as well. To usher in their form of a better "Government". While the weak and feeble minded cheer them on until the realize at the last moment it is at the sake of their own demise. That they where used albeit unknowingly because their lack of discernment.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
26 months ago: Nothing is black and white in the world, perhaps you should learn to figure that out. I don't live in a sterile vacuum, I think for myself, I simply enjoy the fact that through education I have been introduced to many points of view and that alone is worth more than the simplistic "my way is best" reasoning that you guys are describing. I enjoy searching for answers because it lets me think for myself, not think how everyone else wants me to. Trust me, I am not popular for my beliefs among many of the faculty and students and scholars I have experienced because I do not tow the line. Academia is shifting. My generation is starting a pattern of questioning rather than listening, accepting new ideas rather than dismissing them outright because they are different (this is where the difference between scotmanster/cypress and myself lies...I am not scared of things that are different, I am willing to try anything, listen to anything and you are not)
26 months ago: Nothing is black and white? Nothing? I might understand a new theory having some shades of gray. But nothing? That thought is troubling as all proven Physics, Chemistry, Medicine and all other sciences are now disproven.

Up is not up. Hot is not hot. Truth is not truth.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
26 months ago: Nothing at all. Everything that is "Proven" is not. It is all simply a series of observations...for example lets say I stand in a field and 10000000000000000 white sheep walk past me...I cannot prove that every sheep is white. Not even gravity...drop a pen onto the floor until your arm falls off, but the one time you look away is the time it will shoot up into the air.
26 months ago: Oh yeah. If a tree falls in the forest and no one is there to hear. Does it make a sound? Are you serious?
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
26 months ago: That would depend on the definition of sound

I am extremely serious.
scotmanster
scotmanster
26 months ago: The problem is you need someone to help you discern instead of discerning yourself. It is like anything in life either you are the one that influences or you get influenced. I choose to influence. I have heard many of the new fangled arguments scholars raise and I don't buy them. Although I don't have a college degree it still does not mean I have not studied myself.

I use tools like books and audio lectures from the Teaching Company I managed to get through most of the Ancient & Medieval History series. I will never get a college degree nor do I ever want one. A piece of paper does not by all means make you intelligent, it just means that you can pass written test. Even with passing a test, it does not even mean that you know what happened. It does not even mean you grasped what you learned. It does not even mean that you can learn from mistakes of the past to help you in the present. It just means you are book smart. A monkey can be book smart as well with enough repetition.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
26 months ago: I too choose to influence.

In reality a college degree has nothing to do with written tests (if you pick a good college) it has to do with your ability to develop and convey your own opinions on complex issues. I never said you weren't smart because you don't have a college degree, All I mean is that every day for the past 5 years have been exposed to hundreds of different opinions (all of which have legitimate scholarship and developed opinions behind them) which is the advantage that is gained from immersing in an environment where people want to learn.
26 months ago: OK I'll bite. Would youlike to answer first and tell us you definition of sound or shall I start. Your call.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
26 months ago: It doesn't really matter...

If sound is defined as waves reaching the ear of a listener then the tree does not make a sound...unless of course we are counting the critters in the forest in which case it therefore does make a sound.

If sound is defined simply as waves being produced by an object interacting with the environment then the tree makes a sound regardless of the presence of something to hear it.
26 months ago: Why does it have to reach the ear of anything?

Sound is the vibration or vibrations of a single wave length or multiple wave lenghts.

If you place a recording device in the forest and was not there to hear the sound would the recording device collect the vibtation(s)?
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
26 months ago: Yes, but again then something would be receiving the sound waves and therefore a sound would have been made.

But if nothing were there to collect the waves then no sound has occurred (depending on the definition)
26 months ago: What if the vibrations were collected via a recording device and you disabled all speakers from the playback.

Placing a device in-line of the transmission such as a meter or equalizer. While not hearing the sound would the playback produce waves?
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
26 months ago: Again...it all depends on the definition of sound. For me the definition of sound is simply the creation of sound waves (vibrations) via an object interacting with an environment.

By this definition yes...whether or not it is heard by an ear the sound still exists. BUT that does not mean that to another person with a different definition of sound the same end would be reached.
scotmanster
scotmanster
26 months ago: "I too choose to influence.

In reality a college degree has nothing to do with written tests (if you pick a good college) it has to do with your ability to develop and convey your own opinions on complex issues. I never said you weren't smart because you don't have a college degree, All I mean is that every day for the past 5 years have been exposed to hundreds of different opinions (all of which have legitimate scholarship and developed opinions behind them) which is the advantage that is gained from immersing in an environment where people want to learn."

I see your point and I do agree for the most part. I think we are misunderstnading each other my whole aim was not to push that chrisitanity was the core foundation of our Nation. Leaving the ability for most religions to pratice their faith no matter how much I disagree with it. But I still believe God played a huge role in the formation of our nation.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
26 months ago: Scot: Do you mean that God played a role by guiding the founders in a direct sense or that the founders were religious and therefore God played a role?

What do you mean by "Leaving the ability for most religious to practice their faith no matter how much I disagree"? What religions should be not allowed? Which religious do you disagree with?
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
26 months ago: I would have to say any religion that directly violates the safety of any human, such as any religion which requires human sacrifice, would have to be curtailed.

"My generation is starting a pattern of questioning rather than listening"

That thoughtform has been around as long as there have been teenagers. Egads, man, young folk have been full of p**s and vinegar since the beginning of time, the reason my dad borrowed his famous quote "Get out and get a job and pay your own bills, while you still know everything."
Heck, I'm pushing fifty, and I'm still considered a maverick, loose cannon, johnny come lately, MacGuyver, and by some, innovative, free thinking, unconstrained. I've always thought there is no one absolutely right or wrong way to do most things.

But as age and wisdom have set in, my thinking on a lot of things has become much clearer, and I have found that there is indeed black and white, and no amount of convenience or profit can make those two anything but what they are. There is right, and there is wrong, and no amount of justification can change that. Now, some minds leap directly from that statement, to reach a bias based on zealous religion. You will notice I have given no reason to make that leap.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
26 months ago: OOTB: What about a religion that endangers people that willingly accept the danger? (I agree with you by the way, I am just saying for argument sake that true Freedom of Religion would allow for all religions).

As for my quote and your response. I was referring to a specific group of people with that statement. I was referring to members of the political science/political philosophy departments that happen to be my age. Apologies for my lack of detail on that matter. Overall I would agree with you that young folk (I am not that young but still would most likely be considered young folk) fit the description you give; but the specific group of young people I have been with for the past 5 years are really doing some exciting things for the study of politics (just look at some advanced undergrad and graduate conference papers or master's theses).
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
26 months ago: Well, as long as the participants are of an age, and not under the constraints of any verifiable mental incapacity, they should be free to practice religion as they see fit. Snake handlers, pole jumpers, firewalkers, etc. As long as they are mentally capable of making their own decisions and are not coerced into performing dangerous religious rituals, then they should be left alone to do as they see fit. I would never dream of restricting someone's right to perform non-religious dangerous activities, such as mountain climbing, extreme skiing, skydiving, motorcycle ramp jumping. I just don't think a religion that requires the harming of one person by another should be allowed, voluntarily or not.

I am truly glad for your pride in your work. Some major accomplishments are being achieved by the young folk who actually want to make a positive difference. Good luck in the future. You seem like a bright person, who is willing to weigh out the options before committing his opinion.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
26 months ago: seems reasonable, cults and such should not be protected. But I do think any legit religion should have protection (legit meaning not human sacrafices)

Thank you for the kind words. There really is a lot of cool stuff happening now!
scotmanster
scotmanster
26 months ago: Extreme religions is what I am talking about PH the ones that will strap on a bomb or kick down an old defenseless lady. The ones that want to change this country from the bottom up by trying to blow up or conspire to blow up buildings to get a point across, the type that burn flags. Religion comes in many forms.

I mean really look at a man like Bill Ayers he conspired and got off on a technicality but that same man is wealthy now and very involved with the community. Should men like these be allowed to influence the younger generations? Or should they be deported?

Yes that is exactly what I meant most but not all have some belief in God whether they be deist like you are saying or protestant like I am contesting. By their belief although unknowingly shaped our Country into what it is. Even the forefathers that did not believe in God are used by God is my belief.
scotmanster
scotmanster
26 months ago: I might come unglued at time PH but I mean no harm I had some very tough experiences with atheist teachers in my high school. I was never the type to force the word of God but if brought up if their is a God I will let my point be made. Just so happens the atheists I have come across had no problem teaching their was not a God and scoffed at you openly in a classroom if you disputed them.

I can see you seem to think along the same lines meaning, you came across people that forced their religion on you at one point or another, which it probably left a bad taste in your mouth. So no I don't think you hate Christianity maybe you just dislike people that jam their opinions down your throat. Or make you feel like you are a lesser person becuase you do not believe in what they believe.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
26 months ago: Scot, I agree that religious extremists are the true problem, and they exist within every single religion (the major religions at least, I haven't heard of too many Pantheists going off the deep end ;D) As for Bill Ayers: I have personally met Bill, I have had lunch with Bill (He visited my college and a group I was involved with was the host). I was borderline rude when grilling him about his past and I can tell you that he is honestly remorseful about what he was involved in. Further, I have a few friends who go to UoI and they say that he is a fantastic educator. I understand that he was going to do something evil, but he never did. I think people can change and I honestly thing that Bill has.

Moving on: I am sorry that you had High School teachers that were rude. They do not deserve the right to teach if they are willing to squash ideas or beliefs. I certainly have experienced (in high school, not so much in college (the college I went to was very good about allowing free thought)) the sting of people telling me I was stupid or going to hell because of my beliefs. I do not hate any religion, I have friends that range from Pagan to Buddhists and they are all good people.

I don't like any person who attempts to indoctrinate people, for example I would have a huge problem with those teachers of yours.

I don't think you were overboard to get upset with my comments, I was being a bit over the top and unfair towards other people's opinions which was clearly inappropriate.

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