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End-of-Life Counseling

Posted 30 months ago|26 comments|1,851 views
Written by
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
There has been a lot of discussion as of late about the so-called Mandatory End of Life Counseling provisions tucked away in the ‘‘America’s Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009’’.

Many Americans are concerned that this is a veiled way to lessen the burden on the health care system by eliminating extensive (and expensive) life extending procedures for the elderly, and the critically ill.

Others claim it is simply a way to insure that the government, through Medicare, covers the cost of making informed end of life decisions, such as legal paperwork regarding living wills and trusts, DNR (Do Not Resuscitate) forms, burial arrangements, and options for continuing care.

I have tried to do some research into this matter, and most of the information in the top spots on a web search leads to the conclusion that the former is the case. However, I am not one to succumb to the "consensus" method of decision making.

Here is the actual wording of the bill, from the first link, beginning page 424. To save space, I am only putting the parts I find questionable, not trying to use it out of context, as most of the separate sections are indeed separate.

‘‘(A) An explanation by the practitioner of advance care planning, including key questions and considerations, important steps, and suggested people to talk to.
‘‘(B) An explanation by the practitioner of advance directives, including living wills and durable
powers of attorney, and their uses.
‘‘(C) An explanation by the practitioner of the role and responsibilities of a health care proxy.

‘‘(F)(i) Subject to clause (ii), an explanation of
orders regarding life sustaining treatment or similar
orders, which shall include—
‘‘(I) the reasons why the development of
such an order is beneficial to the individual and
the individual’s family and the reasons why
such an order should be updated periodically as
the health of the individual changes;
‘‘(II) the information needed for an individual or legal surrogate to make informed decisions regarding the completion of such an
order; and
‘‘(III) the identification of resources that
an individual may use to determine the requirements of the State in which such individual resides so that the treatment wishes of that individual will be carried out if the individual is un-able to communicate those wishes, including requirements regarding the designation of a surrogate decision maker (also known as a health care proxy).

‘‘(IV) is guided by a coalition of stake
holders includes representatives from emergency medical services, emergency department physicians or nurses, state long-term care association, state medical association, state surveyors, agency responsible for senior services, state department of health, state hospital association, home health association, state bar association, and state hospice association."

Now, the proponents of the bill claim that the End of Life issue is going to help the elderly get the proper care, but all that counseling has got to be expensive, and tacked onto the Medicare footprint to boot.

So I have a problem reconciling that to this statement by Speaker Nancy Pelosi, regarding the bills responsibility to the Congressional Budget Office, or CBO.

"We do have to be fiscally responsible. We will live by the rules of the CBO. But it's also true that the CBO doesn't count things that we know will save money, like prevention, wellness and end-of-life issues. You don't need to be a congressional accountant to know those will save money. We are very confident that this bill will have savings, and many of them will not be counted by the CBO. But they will save money. Outside groups can document them. We will live by the rules so we are fiscally sound and all the rest. But that doesn't mean we won't have other provisions that save money, but won't be scored."

Perhaps she is only speaking what she feels she needs to say to garner support from fiscally conservative democrats, as she basically reversed that sentiment two seconds later with this statement regarding government deals with the health and pharmaceuticals industry:

"We know we can squeeze more from the system. The minute the drug companies settled for $80 billion, we knew it was $160 billion. Right? If they're giving away 80? But in any event, they're supporting the bill and everybody likes that. But there could be more money. But when you want to squeeze more, you have to be careful about what you're squeezing. You have to make sure it's waste, fraud, and abuse. We don't have the capability of squeezing from the private sector. All we can squeeze is out of the public sector. And the president made the agreements he made. And maybe we'll be limited by that. But maybe not!"

Where does she think the public sector gets its money? From the private sector!! But I digress.

My question is, 'How can being more involved in "end of life issues" save money, when it is obviously going to cost the government more than what they spend now?", unless some of those "issues" involve convincing people to receive less care, effectively ending their life.

What do you think?
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30 months ago: ONE way to look at this is that it applies education toward ensuring people have informed advanced health-care directives. I have one--do you? It clearly absolves the state and my family from having to make decisions to continue my life artificially (which, of course, is expensive.)

There are huge, highly complex issues here and many involve money. If a rare (and extremely expensive) drug is available at, say, $500,000 and it might extend life for 6 months--would you want it? SHOULD you have it? Suppose the patient is a quadruplegic? Does that change your opinion?

One of the reasons health care in this country is so expensive is that patients and their families sometimes demand end-of-life treatments which drug companies provide at enormous expense. How much expense should be borne by society for these treatments? How much expense is "reasonable" to extend life in an elderly person for a few months? Suppose nobody chose those therapies? Think prices would come down?

Everyone knows the health care system is broken. The issue is how to "fix" it in a way that's fair and reasonable for everyone. It'll never be UTOPIAN unless unlimited, miraculous care is available for everyone, regardless of their age, etc. And that isn't possible.

The best solution is to put guidelines in place which understand and address the differences between "heroic" and "reasonable" care. Part of this requires pre-planning by everyone involved in relation to their end-of-life issues and directives.

If you were in charge, you'd do the same thing.

Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
30 months ago: If it cost 50 billion, and I could squeeze out a few more kisses from my beautiful daughter, a few more hugs from my wife, a few more jokes with my son, of course I would want it. I love my life, and would rather it never end. Could I afford it? Not at my current pay grade.

Being quadriplegic, in my opinion, should not be part of the equation, because the person is not the body, but rather the mind. To say that it wold make a difference only reinforces the notion that the health care system would be set up to serve only those that can "contribute" to society. Would it make a difference to you if the patient was, well, say , mentally retarded? Who is going to make their decisions?

I did not know the health care system was broken. I am lucky enough to have great health care coverage, along with outstanding health. I see a doctor maybe once every ten years.

My black sheep brother, on the other hand, has no health care coverage, whatsoever. He sees multiple doctors every month, has spent approximately 2 years of the last ten in the hospital, has broken nearly every large bone in his body several times, broken back, internal injuries galore,
(yes, he's a motorcylcist, and a daredevil).

The moneys involved are huge, but I don't see it as complex. The complexities arise from trying to take a public service and put it under a public tent.

In my opinion, the only way to make this work is to make all health care personnel, (and everyone else for that matter), direct employees of the government, eliminate the caste system, and pay everyone from the janitors to the best neuro-surgeon to the president the same.


But your answer was there, you think the end of life counseling is to convince people to settle for less care at the end
30 months ago: No, you misread what I wrote. Advanced health-care directives allow people to prevent treatments they don't want. They prevent distraught relatives from demanding care patients might not want. They release everyone from making a decision patients might not want.

My comment about quadruplegics was deliberate. For SOME people, decisions about extending life are determined by able-bodiedness. I didn't say that would be my decision, did I?

I do think that "miracle" cures have lulled us into believing that life MUST be extended, regardless of cost. Are you absolutely sure there's no cap on your wonderful health care? Believe me, if your brother were facing kidney cancer and there existed a "miracle" (half-million dollar) drug which would extend his life--welfare might have a quarrel with paying for it.

Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
30 months ago: Advanced health care directives, provided they are not coerced by authority are great, when I reach the age appropriate for making such an instrument, I fully intend to do so. That is why I questioned the wording in the bill concerning surrogate or proxy decision makers. As it stands now, I intend to make known that in the event of my becoming incapacitated or incapable of making further wishes known, DO NOT PULL THAT PLUG!!!!!!

As for the cap on my insurance, I'm sure there is one, I'm not sure what it is, but I have redundant policies, and major illness policies, so I'm sure they would run out of options before I ran out of money. Do I feel guilty? Heck no! Like I said, I've been paying in for a long, long time, and I've used it three times so far.
I have a fairly high deductible, to keep costs lower.
I don't go to the doctor for a sore throat, or the flu, or any cut I can sew up myself.

Maybe instead of socialized medicine, we can just incorporate a paramedic style curriculum into the public schools. That would go a long way towards taking the burden off the system. Unless maybe the elite think we aren't smart enough to care for ourselves.

My brother is not on welfare, or any type of government assistance, however after this last wreck, fractured pelvis into four pieces, lost half his stomach, (he stands 6'3", down to 90 lbs. from 220 lbs.) ripped tubes from kidneys, he has been denied social security and medicaid, can't even get food stamps, and he doesn't want them, others have applied in his behalf.
30 months ago: I'm glad you're wealthy enough to provide yourself and your family with redundant health insurance. Your brother, being uninsured, is more typical of a growing number of people who never had employer-provided insurance and couldn't afford to pay it themselves.

It's obvious that SOME kind of reform is going to happen in this area. Your proposal that all medical personnel should become federal employees is frightening to anyone who's ever dealt with or worked for the government. Paying a highly skilled and educated neuro-surgeon the same salary as a janitor seems naive, don't you think? Or do you propose that the government provide free education for medical professionals?
JAK Gladney
JAK Gladney
Saint Albans, WV
30 months ago: Anyone over the age of 18 should have a living will/medical power-of-attorney. Most of the seminal right-to-die cases in the U.S. involved people under the age of thirty-five when they lost decision-making capacity (Nancy Cruzan, Karen Quinlan, Terri Schiavo).

I'm in a unique position here: I spent most of 2008 traveling across WV as part of a public outreach group, preaching the gospel of advance directives to county senior centers and civic groups (about 40 county senior centers, and 40 civic groups). Education was a key component, and while it's not the only plank in the argument--or even the most important--cost is a factor. Studies consistently show that most of the costs in end-of-life care are incurred in the last month of the patient's life--and almost always for medically-futile treatments. We spent time educating people on CPR--almost universally ineffective and painful on elderly patients and, depending on the disease entity (like advanced dementia), hopelessly futile. Even in best case scenarios, patients who had before been relatively independent, post-CPR were doomed to long-term care facilities, hospice care, etc. CPR's life-saving prospects, especially for an elderly population, have been way oversold.

The same problems exist with other end-of-life interventions, like feeding tubes (aspirational pneumonia). And they often pose serious ethical dilemmas for doctors: anyone who has taken the Hippocratic Oath, vowing to "do no harm", will balk at interventions that they consider medically-futile and harmful.

All that said, we reassured everyone: if, knowing the limitations, you still want every intervention that's medically possible, you're well within your rights to ask for it in your advance directive.
30 months ago: GASP! You mean it's NOT a plot to kill people off as soon as they get sick? :-) Thanks for a voice of reason. Poor Terri Schiavo caused me to create my documents, years ago. It's NOT just for the elderly.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
30 months ago: Yes, and I'm sure your mission was not a government mandated one, but a mission of education. What we are talking here is the question, "Is the government trying to interfere with the healthcare of the elderly and infirm?" Using the term "stakeholders" is to me, the same thing HMO's were raked over the coals for. To include all those stakeholders in the decision making process is going to bewilder most, intimidate some, and definitely not come cheap.
30 months ago: JAK, your post reminded me of a sad but very relevant experience. My dearly beloved aunt Maryelizabeth was sick for many years with COPD. She was taken to the ER one night with a heart attack and her other niece was the only person available to speak for her. Joanne didn't know what to do; there was no advance directive and because she's Catholic, she decided to ask for every possible method to save our aunt.

After she recovered from the heart attack, our aunt lived approximately two more miserable years on oxygen, gasping for every breath. She told me she understood what Joanne had done and didn't blame her, but that, given the chance, she'd have asked them NOT to restart her heart.

She learned the hard way--well, we all did, really. I'm delighted to hear plans to mandate education in end-of-life directives.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
30 months ago: Wealthy? Far from it.
Spending my disposable income on an Escalade or a 50 inch flat screen? Nope.

My point with my brother, as he has opted to buy expensive motorcycles instead of health insurance, is that he can still hobble (or get airlifted) into any emergency room in the country and get the care he needs.

The basic first aid training in public schools thought started out as an afterthought, but I think it might help out a lot, and here's why.

Years ago, I was working for a small company who offered group insurance, we paid half, the owner paid half. The insurance was great, no deductible, 80/20 office visits, drug discounts, the works. Then the boss hired some women with children, and several of them went to the doctor every time their child sneezed. No common sense, figured the co/pay was cheap, so why not? Within six months, our insurance had increased to $100/week.
Now, I've got no formal training in the medical field, but after a few kids and a few trips to the Doc, I figured out what he was going to say 99 percent of the time. "It's viral, nothing I can do." They sometimes offer antibiotics, for my peace of mind only, because you know antibiotics can't touch a cold.
So teaching kids that you don't have to go see a Dr. with every stomach ache, sprain, cut, or sniffle would cut back a lot on the burden. And as many of those that do are on Medicaid, and because it's free, they see no reason to stop.
30 months ago: So, these women decided to take advantage of their insurance and USE it and the rates went up. Somehow, I sincerely doubt that health insurance rates are escalating due to sniffles, sneezes and sprains!

They might be escalating because people are demanding expensive treatments which may or may not extend life more than a few months.

For example: "If it cost 50 billion, and I could squeeze out a few more kisses from my beautiful daughter, a few more hugs from my wife, a few more jokes with my son, of course I would want it."

I'm not picking on you--I'm using your words as an example of ONE of the reasons we're in this mess. Just because treatments MIGHT work doesn't always mean they should be used. My aunt is a great example. This lady was at the end of her life and not having fun anymore. She prayed for death, but, treatment was available and so, it was used.

Bioethics committees deal with these issues every day--is it wrong to extend life? Is it wrong to keep a horrendously deformed infant alive? Is it wrong to artificially inseminate someone who already has six kids she can't care for? Is it wrong to allow someone to overturn an advance directive?

At a time when national health insurance is almost definitely on the horizon, when does the public interest in dubious procedures and treatments begin?

Like all of life, NOTHING is purely "black and white" with these issues. The reality is multiple shades of grey and difficult decisions being made every day.

Any national plan will have to cover these issues.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
30 months ago: I didn't say all rates, I said my rates, and you can doubt if you want, I was there. We, the original employees were in a low risk group, tough American men, who didn't go to the doctor much.
And the women involved not only used their insurance, they abused it.

You should also include in the quote the part about me not being able to afford a 50 billion dollar treatment. If my private insurance carrier includes it in the coverage I pay for, then by all means, bring it on. If not, obviously if I can't afford it, I can't get it.

One question for you, strictly educational.
What are the numbers on the uninsured in this country, and according to statistical data, why are they uninsured.
30 months ago: As I said, I used your comments to illustrate a point--some people will always demand whichever treatments they can get, regardless of cost. It's a valid position for them. And more will "abuse" the system, although I still doubt that nervous mothers will stop seeing doctors for sick children.

You make the point for setting standards of what's acceptable for insurance to pay and what is not. Part of these eventual standards MUST include education so that people understand eventualities and limits of medical care and available finances.

"Strictly educational?" For whom? I can't talk about the nation (although I'm sure you can google anything you want to find.) But here in CALIF, we have an enormous problem with illegals, the unemployed and the elderly.

Here: "According to the California Health Care Chartbook, CA health insurance plans didn't cover 18% of the state's population in 2002. Furthermore, 20% of the state's elderly population is not covered by any type of California health insurance.

Part of the reason for California's numbers was its large immigrant population. Twenty-seven percent of California's population is made up of immigrants and 52% of these individuals who have been in the state under 5 years have no insurance coverage. Even after living in California for more than 5 years, a significant portion, 40%, still don't have health care.

Children under the age of 18 were the least likely to be uninsured. However, the majority of those children will be left without health insurance once they turn 18 because they will no longer be eligible for Medicaid or because they may no longer be covered by their parents' health insurance plan. As a result, they will likely end up uninsured eventually."

Just in my part of L.A. County, 15 hospitals have closed their emergency rooms due to overwhelming numbers of people who come there because they've no insurance.


Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
30 months ago: Yeah, that sounds about right, with the illegal population in California heavily skewed above national average.
Don't get me wrong, I would never advocate turning away anyone who needed urgent care, but you have to draw a line somewhere. Do you think you would have nearly as many illegal immigrants if the system were not so lax? And about them doing the jobs Americans don't want, don't you think in a few months Americans will be willing to do pretty much anything?

What I heard is that, of the 46 million uninsured, which is defined as uninsured by private insurance, a good portion of those counted are already on medicaid or medicare, a portion are in the above $75,000 bracket and prefer a pay as you go health care plan, another large portion are 19 to 26 years old, and aren't even thinking of health insurance, and a large chunk are illegal aliens, leaving only about 7 to 8 million uninsured Americans.
Like I said, that's what I heard, no facts yet. I personally don't see a need to spend 1.8 trillion in ten years to insure 8 million people.

But this is why I'm here, to hear others' opinions, not to argue.

What is your take on it?
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
30 months ago: Clarification;; 7 to 8 million Americans that want insurance but can't afford it.

The 1.8 trillion additional tax dollars over ten years for 8 million works out to 22,500 per uninsured American.

Yeah, I know, I know.
30 months ago: In the first place, I'm quite confident that nearly every state has illegals hiding behind the scenes. I'm also quite confident that they are NOT just "doing the jobs Americans aren't willing to do." (That is SUCH a cliche!) But this is way off topic, isn't it?

Where did you "hear" your statistics? That number is unimaginable. A simple google search revealed this:



47 Million Americans Without Health Insurance, Census Report
Article Date: 29 Aug 2007 - 4:00 PST
A report by the US Census Bureau this week shows that household income is up, the poverty rate is slightly down for the first time this decade, but the number of people without health insurance went up by 0.5 per cent to reach 47 million in 2006."

And THAT was long before the current unemployment situation. I doubt anyone knows how many there are now.


Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
30 months ago: Oh, sorry, that's what I hear from others in your state, "thank an illegal if you like produce", "they're doing the jobs you wouldn't stoop to do", and such.
Here in Ms. they charge $16.00/hr. for unskilled workers, $20 if they can swing a hammer. We have a few, but not nearly as many as Tejas and further west.

But what I was saying is, that the census report supposedly has included Medicaid and Medicare recipients, illegal aliens, self insured, and uninterested people in their totals. I can't say if it is true, but tomorrrow I will try to find out for sure.
30 months ago: That old crappola about how illegals "do the jobs Americans don't want to do" is a lie perpetuated in part by the agribusiness, in part by the advocates for massive influx of Hispanics and also in part by greedy business which hires them at cheaper rates.

Since any census figures are nearly ten years old, I'd doubt their reliability. Numbers of illegals alone have mushroomed far beyond the numbers of legal immigrants. Our schools are falling behind, in no small part because teachers now have to teach children to speak/understand English before anything else can happen.

Many, if not most, of these people are uneducated and tend to trust in herbal potions, curanderos, etc. This means they may arrive at emergency rooms seeking care for something which could easily have been cured, had they seen a doctor weeks before. In addition, many cross the border seeking attention for something they can't afford in their country of origin.

I was horrified recently, when taking a friend to an emergency room. He'd fallen and was bleeding profusely from the head. At nine in the morning on a weekday, the ER waiting area was overflowing. The hospital had to hire Spanish interpreters to sort out the various problems.

It's no wonder Calif. is bankrupt.
30 months ago: I've just done a quick google search and found three sites which say 47 million in the US are without health insurance. I'm sure you can find them, too.
JAK Gladney
JAK Gladney
Saint Albans, WV
30 months ago: Terri Schiavo was used as a teachable moment: had Terri done an advance directive, none of the ensuing litigation, involvement from congress, etc. would have been necessary. In her defense, broad community education efforts like ours are a fairly recent phenomenon.

Not to burst anyone's bubble--I know this is the latest effort to kill healthcare reform by mobilizing the pro-life crowd--but "end-of-life counseling" isn't a recent development, or shrouded in secrecy. It's almost 20 years old. Thanks to the Patient Self-Determination Act (PSDA) of 1990, any adult who enters a doctor's office, emergency room, nursing home, hospice program, etc. is asked the question, usually at intake, "Do you have an advance directive? Do you know about advance directives?" The PSDA prohibits institutions from discriminating against a patient who does not have an advance directive--you're simply given the opportunity to learn about advance directives and how to execute your own. As you can imagine, this isn't always the best time to discuss end-of-life decisions--so outreach efforts have branched out.

The message was simple: if you want your end-of-life wishes to be respected, in the event you lose decision-making capacity (these are "springing" documents--they only "spring" into effect once you've lost decision-making capacity and can no longer advocate for yourself), it's in your best interest to execute an advance directive. Tell as many people, family and friends, as possible that you've executed an advance directive.
30 months ago: BINGO! Couldn't have said it better. There IS a frantic movement to discredit the idea of national health insurance and logical discussions such as this one are critical, IMHO. (I fully expect to read that mandatory abortion requirements are hidden in Obama's plan. Wait & see.)
JAK Gladney
JAK Gladney
Saint Albans, WV
30 months ago: We heard plenty of horror stories, just like yours zoolady.

This is a scary thing. In the event that end-of-life decisions have to be made, and there's no guiding advance directive, doctors are instructed to use a simple criteria when looking for a decision-maker--whomever has the most face-to-face, day-to-day contact with the patient. Usually that's a spouse, sometimes it's an adult child, a parent, even a neighbor. In extreme cases--say an elderly patient, whose husband has preceded her in death, has no children, no close friends, no advance directive--the decision is made by a decision-maker of last resort. In WV, it's the county Department of Health & Human Resources (it used to be the county sheriff--not a good situation for the sheriff or the patient)--it varies from state to state.

These decisions are going to be made--9 times out of 10 by the person you would have designated to make them. But why take that risk?
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
30 months ago: hey, these are the figures i was talkiing about, sorry it's on a right wing site

uninsured who are NOT U.S. CITIZENS IS 45% of the 47 million.

Broken down by age, 18 - 24 years old - 29.3% of the 47 million.

25 - 35 years old - 26.9% of the 47 million.

Broken down by salary, $75,000 or more per year - 8.5% of the 47 million.

http://righttruth.typepad.com/right_truth/2007/08/health-care-hyp.html
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
30 months ago: http://author.heritage.org/Research/HealthCare/wm555.cfm

Part of the apparent over-counting of the uninsured in the Census data is likely due to a serious undercounting of Medicaid enrollees. While the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services (CMS) reported Medicaid enrollment of 51 million in 2002, the Census reported only 33 million, a difference of 18 million people. This trend continues in 2003 with a .7 percentage point increase in Medicaid enrollment by the Census Bureau, putting that number at 35 million, but CMS reports 53 million enrollees. This discrepancy is, to say the least, problematic.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
30 months ago: http://www.insure.com/articles/healthinsurance/analysis.html

Another site with variations on a theme.

Mind you, I don't believe everything I read, as you probably have figured out. Just throwing it out there.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
30 months ago: I'm going to post this on a separate rant, to see if anyone can shed any light on it.

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