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Dump Public Education or Endorse Private Vouchers

Posted 11 months ago|20 comments|447 views
Written by
Coloranter Raver
Denver, CO
The Problem with School Voucher Decisions

Today, the ACLU and other Church/State separation groups decided to take on a Douglas County Colorado's school voucher program. (source). The school board for Douglas county, one of Colorado's wealthiest counties, decided to implement the voucher program for this fall. The problem with this and countless other times the idea has been tried is that the Federal Constitution and most state constitutions provide for a clear separation of church and state thereby preventing state and federal tax money from being used to pay for the education of religious school tuitions. It stands to reason in a non-theocratic nation, that federal and state tax money wouldn't be used to fund the schools of one religious or another. Experience has demonstrated that insofar as the tax money is funding private, Christian, parochial school many Christians are just fine with that, but they fail to consider when they put forth this type of legislation that the USA is not a Christian-exclusive nation and their tax money may just as easily be used to fund students to attend Jewish, Islamic, and other religious schools.

The shame of it all is there is an easy solution if what school districts want is for kids to be able to attend private schools. They simply need to state the vouchers may not be used at religious schools. Do these school board members really want students to have choice or do they want to secretly fund religious schools? If they want choice, this would give them choice. A 2010 study by the College Board found that private school students tend to score more than 200 points, on average, higher than public school students across the nation. (source). Of course, there are papers written ad nauseam accounting for this disparity. Unfortunately, the reality is that there are many wealthy kids who do poorly in private schools, but there's little chance for an economically challenged child to do well if there are no funds for him or her to attend a private school. Moreover, private schools raise hundreds of millions annually to offer need-based scholarships for economically challenged families. They could either admit more students of need or subsidize them more if vouchers were permitted.

The discussion may be intensified because, bottom-line, why should the government be involved in funding education in the first place? No where in the Constitution is a guarantee for free public education stated. The very same nation that expends countless resources fighting a national health system advocates equally vehemently for a national public education system even when the wealthiest and most religious don't utilize it. In fact, some have argued well that the system was set up to indoctrinate the middle and lower classes into accepting their station in life – as in teach the poor and middle class to aspire to be poor and middle class. Why not, therefore, just expect people to pay for their own children to go to school or not? Why not just treat education like health care. If you are fortunate enough to have access to funds for an education great! If you are wealthy enough to afford a better school that this other family, hey, that's capitalism – work harder, take on more jobs, etc. Taxes could immediately be lowered across that nation if all of education in the USA were privatized. Doesn't competition make things better? Every debate against public health care can be applied equally well against public education. When you put this also in the context that public schools really aren't doing that well across the land, it seems like a no brainer to either (a) end the taxes and let the market fall where it may or (b) allow people to use vouchers to send their child to any non-parochial school of their choice.
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COMMENTS
Altruist
Altruist
Eugene, OR
11 months ago: The problem with vouchers is that they often do not account for the full cost of the private schools. This selects for the richer kids, and the parents of those who go to private schools are more involved in their children's education.

When the rich and those who do better academically are taken out of public schools, this cuts down on the funding available for the public schools and the remaining kids are the poorer, "problem" kids with family problems. One would expect the private schools test better than public, but in fact that is questionable. http://www.nctimes.com/news/opinion/colu...

The reason government is involved in education funding is to try to insure that even poor kids get a decent education, and that those with special needs are cared for. That would not happen in a free market system and it rarely happens even with government aid.

The vast majority of education funding comes from property taxes. Obviously the richer communities will have more money than the inner city poor schools in the slums. The richer communities also do not have nearly as many societal problems: single parents, working parents that cannot have time for the kids, drug and alcohol problems, crime violence, prostitution. All of those things effect a child's education, especially the availability of child care, pre-school educational facilities, kindergarten, etc. The richer kids learn how to read much earlier and the poor kids never have the chance to catch up.

The only way to achieve educational equity is to have everyone pay into a federal pool and have the federal government disburse the same amount to all kids, (adjusted for local cost of living and wages), and special needs and those with developmental and societal problems need more than regular kids.

I am a big supporter of private and charter schools and I and my children are the products of these schools. The answer is to have charter schools within the public school system, and to let everyone go where they want. Different schools specialize in different areas and different kids have different interests and needs. Kids all do equally well if they are given the same opportunities and are all pushed to achieve by good teachers.

As you pointed out there is a prohibition against the state supporting religious institutions. Let those who want a religious education pay more as my parents scrimped and saved to do.
Coloranter Raver
Coloranter Raver
Denver, CO
11 months ago: Al,
we agree on most things, but apparently there is a gap between on on this one and it's wide.

I must deconstruct your first source: Charter Schools vs. Public is the topic of that article and Charter Schools are NOT traditional Private Schools. Traditional Private Schools (now called Independent Schools as they long ago dropped the label of being exclusively for the wealthy elite) are the best schools in the United States. They out perform their public peers by leaps and bounds. Their teachers are less well paid than their public counterparts in nearly all cases. I'll use my own case however to illustrate. I taught the bulk of my career in a midwest independent day school (k-12) and we routinely lost younger teachers to the public schools in our area for salary increases of $10K to as much as $50K a year. Most have financial aid budgets (need-based only) in excess of $1 million a year. And their test scores, well, they're off the charts when placed side-by-side with public counterparts. They are hands down better from the bottom up as their high school teachers must be degreed in their subjects rather than in educational theory. They are universally expected to participate, often without additional compensation, in a minimum of one activity such as running the school paper or coaching a sport per year. They arrive at school around 7 am and leave no sooner than 5 pm or 6 pm or later. They care about their students, write about them extensively, and ensure that none falls between the cracks. They are almost exclusively non-unionized and tend to hold their positions up to an average of 5 times longer than teachers in the public sector. In any case, there is zero similarity between a charter school and a true independent school except they both utilize a greater autonomy and, often, the charters will be allowed to utilize site-based management.
sunny2
sunny2
11 months ago: Color You are the exception to the rule. I never met one dedicated teacher, except the special people on the outside that were wonderful mentors.
You must have inspired many.
Coloranter Raver
Coloranter Raver
Denver, CO
11 months ago: Next, let's deconstruct the first paragraph which is full of mythology perpetuated by teachers unions. It is true that vouchers don't cover the full cost of Independent School Tuitions. Guess what? The tuitions charged to the parents don't cover the full cost of the education. This is why independent schools have development staffs to raise money and build huge endowments most solid ones in excess of $20 million and going up to over $400 million. Because they are not tax-payer funded, if they want to spend more they must raise more or charge more.

To say that the cost of Independent Schools selects for richer people who are more involved is simply classist. (sorry) This was true 60 years ago, but it's far from true now. Dr. Pearl Kane of the Klingenstein Institute of Teachers College Columbia University conducted loads of studies proving the contrary. Sadly, wealthy parents have no more inclination to be involved in thei lives of their children many of whom may be raised by a staff (and many are sent off to boarding school away from their parents altogether). So, it is classist to presume a relationship between the wealth of a parent and his or her involvement with his or her children. The contrary is also classist to presume that economically challenges parents are less able to be interested or involved. My personal experience was they were more involved because they knew the value of education and the opportunity their child had earned.
Coloranter Raver
Coloranter Raver
Denver, CO
11 months ago: I enjoyed your comment about why government is involved, "to insure [sic] that even poor kids get a decent education". Yikes. As I've said, need-based financial aid is a huge part of the operating budget of every independent school in the nation. It's a badge of honor. So, the government really doesn't need to be involved for economically challenged children to get a free education and the leading Independent Schools in the nation. That, my friend is another public school teachers union talking. If you think there aren't problem kids or special needs kids in Independent Schools, again, you are out of date. Moreover, there are amazing Independent Schools just for kids with certain special needs that knock the socks off any public school with mainstreaming. In my professional educational opinion, mainstreaming was the worst side-effect of the ADA and there were many.
Coloranter Raver
Coloranter Raver
Denver, CO
11 months ago: I don't agree that the only way to achieve educational equity is to utilize a federal pool. This is actually an area where I think the involvement of governments local and federal are a hinderance. Here's why plain and simple, government regulations of an entity that is an organic, thriving, lively place where the students, teachers, parents / guardians, and administrators are as different from other places as they are from year to year. Indepenedent Schools with site-based management can adjust to the changing needs of its stakeholders in a whim. This, of course, can have gravely bad consequences, fortunately, there's nothing but a Board of Trustees that stands between the firing of any single person in the school unlike all the red tape in a public or unionized situation. Independent Schools work great, produce amazing results, across all socioeconomic lines, and spend less per student than their public counterparts.

If we got rid of all public schooll and allowed true independent schools (not charters) to fill the void, we would have a better nation.
sunny2
sunny2
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sunny2
10 months ago: Coloranter How can vouchers help in this area: We are putting on an event presently to help further programs in education.
You clearly have an interset in education for the children in the true sense of the word. We find we are making some headway promoting it by fund raising and getting the Community people involved. Many of the Communities are down trodden and the kids never have a chance because of poverty. There are political people who handle these Districts but the populace have no interest as they learned to accept things as they are. The politicians don't know where to begin unless an effort is being made. This Group that we have is really the fire to ignite this effort in becoming a base for future goals to benefit the children. I know it will set an example for other Communities. Unless someone takes an interest in these areas, nothing will ever change. When someone advocates to make that change, politicians jump right in, especially in these times when the Communities have to take charge of their own fate and try to help themselves. We have been able to catch the interest of politicians in our area to speak at our Event. This is just the beginning. It is no more about choosing private schools or public. It is going to be about education itself that should be mandatory for everyone, but it is never equal depending on area. You were talking about vouchers how can that work in some of these areas that are devastated. How can it help in situations that are in real need? Is this where independent schools may be able to thrive. Maybe it could be the root of solving this. It will go on another 100 years or more if something isn't done. You live in Colorado and within the last few year we've been able to set up a program within an Organization to sponsor many, many children, and it is doing so well and mostly from the contributions of people in Colorado getting involved. It has been very successful an ongoing every years so far. Over here it is another story. Anything you can add. Sunny
11 months ago:
School Vouchers redirect much needed funds from public schools to private ventures that are not proven to render adequate results. Public education works! What doesn't work is teachers union contracts that guarantee jobs to professionals that can't teach. No Union contract in any field except teaching guarantees a job to someone who can not do it. This and this alone should be the first thing to change.
Coloranter Raver
Coloranter Raver
Denver, CO
11 months ago: You are correct that teachers unions are a bad thing, but you are not that Independent Schools are untested. The nation's first schools were independent and many still exist. Go read all about Philips-Andover and Philips-Exeter if you doubt this.

Public education doesn't work because its purpose is to generate new lower and middle class citizens period. I was educated 11 of 13 years in public schools including most of middle and high school. I was teaching in an independent school less than 3 weeks when I saw there was simply no similarity between the education I was delivering and the one I received. The students I taught were being led to believe they could be movers and shakers in the changing future of the world whereas public school kids are taught to attain the finest levels of mediocrity the world has to offer.
11 months ago: In the uk the teachers are going on strike a first year teacher only earns £25,000 pounds.
Apparantly this isnt enough to live on.
They then get 11 weeks holiday.(i havent spelled that wrong it is 11 weeks).
My sons teacher then gets every thursday morning too herself as "ME" time and she is not aloud to be disturbed.
The teachers union are digging thereselves into a hole as the general public do not feel sorry for them anymore.
If you had vouchers for private schools where would the 3 million on benefits in the uk get tought.
If private schools become popular there would not be enough places and this would drive prices up making it even harder for the poorer people to be educated.
BadCyborg
BadCyborg
San Antonio, TX
11 months ago: Gabriel MUST be warming up his lip and the "Fat Lady" must be doing arpeggios at this moment! In the space of a week or so I have found myself agreeing with both Pastor Dinary and Coloranter Raver.

I agree with much of CR's post with one primary exception. CR wrote:
" Federal Constitution and most state constitutions provide for a clear separation of church and state thereby preventing state and federal tax money from being used to pay for the education of religious school tuitions"
I cannot speak for all state constitutions but the 1st Amendment to the U.S. constitution DOES NOT do any such thing.

Before commenting on the "wall of separation" one should educate themselves on 1)where/how that phrase originated and 2) what the person who originated the phrase (and helped write the Constitution) considered the phrase and the Establishment Clause of the 1st Amendment to mean. You can find all the information you could ask for at http://www.wallbuilders.com. The article covering Jefferson and his "wall" may be found here (link shortened via TinyURL) http://tinyurl.com/TJ-Wall

Jefferson clearly intended the wall to protect religion from government - not the other way around. The clause was meant to prevent the establishment of a national church - similar to the Church of England. THAT'S ALL!

Remember, the Founders wrote the Constitution to be a fence around the federal government - to keep the federal government from wandering off the reservation as it were. The founders intended the Constitution as a LIMITING document. The Constitution authorized Congress to pass legislation only in certain, specific, well defined areas (Article 1, Section 8). It also specifically PROHIBITED Congress from legislating in certain specific areas (Article 1, Section 9).

How much grief could have been avoided by the government remaining inside the fence?
Altruist
Altruist
Eugene, OR
11 months ago: CR you are right that we are usually similar in views.

I also taught in both the public and private school systems. I am and have always been impressed with the amount of dedication and expertise of all of the teachers I have worked with.

I am tired of people bad mouthing teachers, the public schools, and teachers unions.

They all have the same goal, to work tirelessly for the benefit of the children. None of the teachers I have met are in it for the money, and none are slackers. Teaching is one of the hardest jobs in the world and it demands at least 12 hour days and most teachers spend all of that time off in the summers honing their skills and furthering their educations.

I attended private catholic schools for 11 years when growing up, and while it is true that this school has a very high success rate (few drop outs, and 95% of graduates go on to college) it still had some very poor teachers some of whom actually set my education back.

Not all private schools are as good as the public schools, but the preppy schools where they can afford the best of teachers, equipment, and facilities no doubt do better than the public schools who are almost universally starving for funds and hurting.

My daughter attended a public, alternative (charter) school that I would bet would exceed the records of any of the private schools you champion.

This was an International High School with an IB program, that matched the highest education levels of 141 countries. All of the classes my daughter took were AP classes, in addition she had to do hundreds of hours of community service to teach her how to give back to her community.

When she graduated from high school she had accumulated enough credit to skip an entire year at the honors college at the Univ. of Oregon.

It has been my experience that public schools if run properly, if they have a lot of parental involvement, and dedicated staff and students, can exceed the achievements at a lower cost than the private schools.

My objection to the private schools are that 1. they rob funds from the public schools and 2. they drain off the most talented dedicated students, leaving the public schools starved for funds and with all of the troublemakers and those with learning and societal problems.

The point of a universal public education system is to provide a quality education for ALL of the children. In a privatized system they can just kick out the problem kids, but in a public system they are stuck with them.

The future of we as a nation, depends on a free universal public education system, not just a system for the rich.

I know you are saying that private schools accept a lot of poor and special needs kids through donations, but in general the private free market education system just writes off all of the problem kids, and in many cases we later have to care for those kids in the more expensive prison system.

Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
11 months ago: Public Education works so well that the US is ranked where in education worldwide?

The teachers unions and others think the answer is throw money at the problem.

Lets do a fun exercise like we did with healthcare. Who can tell us how much money other countries are shoveling into heir public education system, and where they all rank in worldwide standings?
sunny2
sunny2
11 months ago: I didn't find Parochial school to teach much religion.
Maybe a special Mass now and then for the kids during school hours when awards were given out. Not even the Bible was taught.
I found I had to improvise by paying a high cost, not only for the school itself, but on the outside for higher skilled programs in math, etc., to get the better education that the school didn't offer.
sunny2
sunny2
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sunny2
11 months ago: It all depends on the families outlook. My relative's kids went to swanky Private schools and never went out on their own to make their own way and relied on their families to provide jobs for them. Everyone is different. It all depends on how progressive the child is and if they are groomed and conditioned to want to learn instead of wasting time. I wanted to add that some of these Parochial Schools are not rated very high. There is a lot of favoritism given to families by the school which plays a big part in who has a better chance at being educated.
It isn't a fair system at all.
JMurray
JMurray
Frisco, TX
10 months ago: Another problem that is not popular to adress is that the 1st amendment does not really preclude the return of the "tax dolar" and its subsequent use by citizens for whatever purpose they choose. The money was the tax paypers anyway. Vouchers could be limited to tax payers (school taxes) but that would not redistribute the money adequately for opponents.
Felix Mannow
Felix Mannow
England
10 months ago: America should follow china in the way we teach our children as our children learn very fast
sunny2
sunny2
10 months ago: That is very well and good because the children grow up talented and with goals.
We don't put that pressure on our kids. They need a good balance.
10 months ago: every child just needs encouragement and they can achieve anything but the education systems all around the world need to be looked at as in england there is a generation of children now that do not want to do anything apart from drink,drugs and sex.In 10 years they will be such a drain on our tax system the government should be spending money now educating them.
sunny2
sunny2
10 months ago: Encouragement plays a big roll in their future. I was always on a journey of enrichment which has been a big plus in raising my family. Regarding public and private education many courses were not available in the schools or colleges; I looked for educational programs on the outside to provide more. I found colleges cut back and did away with important studies that they could know longer offer because of their financial status. The Government is throwing these kids away to the wolves. Communities have to step in and take hold of the reins on these kids. Parents can't do it alone once drink, drugs, and sex enter the picture. These kids don't know anything else because their minds aren't kept busy enough. It becomes a miserable trap that never ends and the ruination of families. I asked someone about the voucher system because it was important, but I didn't get the courtesy of an answer. Oh well what else is new.

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