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Criticisim of Scientology by Criminals

Posted 38 months ago|207 comments|2,155 views
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You might have noticed that America seems to be overflowing with lame criticism of Scientology.

Do you want to know just how much of this criticism you should believe?

Well, I have the answer for you - none of it. You should not believe any of it.

This criticism is ALL originating from

(1) former Scientologists - people who have failed at Scientology because they are not ethical enough, and

(2) criminals who have never been Scientologists, so they have no reality about it and have no basis to criticize it.

Such criticism from the uninformed is worthless.

The picture that most people get of Scientology is distorted by hatred and misinformation. Just because Scientology is unpopular doesn't mean it is wrong. For example, many people quote the March 2008 Gallup Poll on religions that found that most Americans have a negative view of Scientology, disliking it more than atheism or any other religion. This is a very deceptive and misleading poll.

The problem with the so-called poll is that most of the people surveyed were probably NOT Scientologists, and probably were criminals or atheists and thus have no basis for their opinions on religion. The people surveyed might not have even met a Scientologist. But the poll doesn't tell you that, thus distorting the picture. A proper survey would have surveyed opinion amongst Scientologists. The results would have been overwhelmingly positive.

The fact is that Scientologists are a minority trying to make the world better with proven technology that is clearing the planet of aberration, insanity and war. Many people oppose any social betterment activity, hence they oppose Scientology.

The legitimate source of information about Scientology is the Church itself. Anyone can borrow a Scientology book from a library, for free, and learn for themselves, just like John Travolta did. Check out the links.



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COMMENTS
TheLegendTomWing
TheLegendTomWing
 Administrator
Philadelphia, PA
38 months ago: Wait, are scientologists the ones who cannot take medication
38 months ago: Scientologists don't take so-called psychiatric medication.
TheLegendTomWing
TheLegendTomWing
 Administrator
Philadelphia, PA
38 months ago: Okay, i take sleeping pills, advil, asprin, stomach pills.

Are they okay?
38 months ago: It's your choice.

If you check out the Volunteer Minister's Handbook, you will see that pain comes from mental image pictures. These are "created by the thetan or living beings and impinge or press against the body".

Pain depressants "(a) inhibit the ability of the thetan to create mental image pictures and also (b) to impede the electrical conductivity of nerve channels."
38 months ago: "This criticism is ALL originating from

(1) former Scientologists - people who have failed at Scientology because they are not ethical enough, and

(2) criminals who have never been Scientologists, so they have no reality about it and have no basis to criticize it.

Such criticism from the uninformed is worthless."

Adhominim attacks on critics is not a valid argument. Also, no proof on your part.

They at least supply documentary evidence to support their position.

"proven technology that is clearing the planet of aberration, insanity and war."

Please feel free to show any and all tests and the methodology used within the tests and submit them to a reputable paper on the subject of mental health.

You've only had what, 50 or so years to do so. Yet not one has ever been submitted.

In short, on the face of it your argument is worthless.
38 months ago: Lol, all the critism is resulting from a) people not ethical enough for scientology. Now from what I have heard, the Church recieved its tax exampt status by black mailing individuals in the IRS. If that is ethics in the Church, then I would much rather be unethical.
Secondly b) all critism comes from criminals. Please, show me your research that proves this. I am very interested to know your sources. Please link them to me in a comment, thank you.
Next you say that the poll was biased because it did not ask scientologists. But there are polls everyday that are reported as fact that do the same thing. For example, if a poll asked, "Are you dissatisfied with Congress?" would you have to be a congressman to answer.
Im sorry, but your rave is loosely based on facts (whose sources are questionable at best) and your arguments are pure opinion. Again, please, dissprove me with a) logical arguments and b)facts to back up your arguments.
38 months ago: Well, as a long time Scientologist.. no. Sleeping pills, pain pills, any pills that effect the mind are not allowed in Scientology as we use alternative, more natural treatments that will not harm you like the Pharmaceutical companies will.

Also, Jack we cannot deny our secret Church Scriptures concerning Xenu and thetans any longer. Tommy Davis was tricked and forced to admit that they exist by Bigot Nathan Baca who works for KESQ, Palm Springs, California.

So Xenu and what we believe does exist.
http://www.kesq.com/Global/story.asp?S=9996728&nav=menu191_1_1_2

Even still, this should not stop us from clearing the planet and saving everyone.
38 months ago: "more natural treatments that will not harm you like the Pharmaceutical companies will."

Tell that to the family of Lisa Mcpherson.
38 months ago: ScientologyLover87. What if parts of the planet don't want your help? Than you are forcing them to submit to your clearing. That does not seem like a noble goal.
38 months ago: "What if parts of the planet don't want your help? Than you are forcing them to submit to your clearing."

Hubbard declared that anyone below 2.0 on the tone scale was to be "dealt with" without mercy... Make of that what you will.
38 months ago: Criminals?

Here is some stable data with which to learn the truth and shatter your Delusions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Snow_White

Under this program, Scientology operatives committed infiltration, wiretapping, and theft of documents in government offices, most notably those of the U.S. Internal Revenue Service. Eleven highly-placed Church executives, including Mary Sue Hubbard (wife of founder L. Ron Hubbard and second-in-command of the organisation), pled guilty or were convicted in federal court of obstructing justice, burglary of government offices, and theft of documents and government property. The case was United States vs. Mary Sue Hubbard et al., 493 F. Supp. 209 (D.D.C. 1979).

Also

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology_controversies#Criminal_behavior

And

www.whyaretheydead.net

Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health, 1975
38 months ago: Well, those who resist us like Nathan Baca and that cyber terrorist group Anonymous will be delt with once our goal of clearing the planet is achieved.

Them and other suppressive people will be put put away and kept out of the picture so they cannot disrupt our plans any further.
38 months ago: Case for the prosecution rests mi'lud.
38 months ago: Prosecution? You mean the prosecution against the bigots! Scientology controls the law, we have millions in our orgs! Already those who speak out against us are being put away!

It is only a matter of time before Nathan Baca and what's left of that KKK Cyber terrorist group Anonymous is put in prison forever for keeping us from clearing the planet!
38 months ago: Price check on fruit loops bob...

"millions in our orgs"

Which explains why they're all empty.

"It is only a matter of time before Nathan Baca and what's left of that KKK Cyber terrorist group Anonymous is put in prison forever for keeping us from clearing the planet!"

Right, because as we all know, telling the truth is an inditable offence.

Back to the adhominims again I see...
38 months ago: I've already said too much and now I'm going to be sec-checked thanks to all of you SPs!

JUST YOU WAIT, ANONYMOUS! SCIENTOLOGY IS CLEARING THE PLANET AND IT HAS NO ROOM FOR THE LIKES OF YOUR KIND!
38 months ago: Shalashar Dekeres

You say -

"Please feel free to show any and all tests and the methodology used within the tests and submit them to a reputable paper on the subject of mental health.

You've only had what, 50 or so years to do so. Yet not one has ever been submitted.

In short, on the face of it your argument is worthless."

The proof is in "Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health" where the research is clearly set out.

50 years ago the so-called "reputable papers" wouldn't print LRH's research because it was too challenging for them. They still won't, and they don't even claim to have any technology for clearing the planet of aberration, insanity and war.

The "reputable papers" that get everything wrong and are paid by big pharmaceutical companies to get everything wrong.
38 months ago: "I've already said too much and now I'm going to be sec-checked thanks to all of you SPs!"

Always someone else's fault, isn't it?

"JUST YOU WAIT, ANONYMOUS! SCIENTOLOGY IS CLEARING THE PLANET AND IT HAS NO ROOM FOR THE LIKES OF YOUR KIND!"

I assume then that you have some kind of "final solution" with regards the likes of us?
38 months ago: EBranger

You say -
"I am very interested to know your sources. Please link them to me in a comment, thank you."

Try the second link I supplied at the side of the article under "external links".


You said that my argument was not logical. I am sure congressmen would know themselves better than non-congressmen, yes?
38 months ago: "The proof is in "Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health" where the research is clearly set out."

No, it isn't, and if hubbard or indeed, anyone else had even a cursery understanding of how to produce a scientific paper (afterall, dianetics perports to be "the modern science of mental health") you would have been able to show proof.

"50 years ago the so-called "reputable papers" wouldn't print LRH's research because it was too challenging for them. They still won't, and they don't even claim to have any technology for clearing the planet of aberration, insanity and war."

Citation for this. And protip: "LRH said so" doesn't count.

If you want anyone to believe you, backup what you're saying with documentary proof.

"The "reputable papers" that get everything wrong and are paid by big pharmaceutical companies to get everything wrong."

Citation please.
38 months ago: "Scientologylover 87"

Tommy Davis said nothing of the sort. He wasn't tricked at all.
38 months ago: Hello everyone. As a Scientologist, I must say that any further questions about the fastest growing mainstream Religion can be directed to your nearest Scientology Org. Not on a blog with comments full of lies, thank you.
38 months ago: Shalashar Dekeres

You only have to go to the trouble of reading Dianetics, or stepping in to your local Church to find out.

But I think you are missing the point about "scientific papers". They are often disproved, but Dianetics has never been disproved.
38 months ago: "Tommy Davis said nothing of the sort. He wasn't tricked at all."

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/WO0903/S00280.htm

http://www.kesq.com/Global/story.asp?S=9996728

Documentary evidence once again trumps your opinion.
38 months ago: Shalashar Dekeres

The interviewer was blatantly promoting hate. That is an outrageous excuse for journalism. Where is the balance?
38 months ago: "You only have to go to the trouble of reading Dianetics, or stepping in to your local Church to find out."

I've read dianetics. It was the biggest pile of meandering trash I've read in a long, long time.

"But I think you are missing the point about "scientific papers". They are often disproved, but Dianetics has never been disproved."

The purpose of peer review is to check over other peoples work and see if the results found within the original experiment are sound. Anyone with even a highschool diploma or equivalent should know this.

Dianetics makes a huge number of claims with regards to the state of "Clear" yet not one person has ever been able to demonstrate this. If dianetics worked in the way that it says it does, where are all the Clears?
Chef Xenu
Chef Xenu
Columbus, OH
38 months ago: Jack, you know you are just saying these things because criticism of Scientology works, and it helps people!

I know the critics and anonymous protesters in my town are not criminals because they meet with the police to discuss how and where and when they plan to peacefully demonstrate their dissatisfaction with Corporation of Scientology's abusive policies and illegal activities, and to ensure they do so only within the bounds of the law.

Criticism of the Corporation of Scientology works, and it helps people. Don't you want to help people Jack?

Join us and you will experience wins an a level you never dreamed of, because criticism of the Corporation of Scientology works, and it helps people, people like Tory "Magoo" Christman, people like the guy who blew from our org recently, people like you.

Criticism of the Corporation of Scientology works, and it helps people.
38 months ago: "The interviewer was blatantly promoting hate."

Hate? Seriously? I don't think reading from LRH's own work to get to the truth is a hateful act. If it were, wouldn't that make you self loathing?

"That is an outrageous excuse for journalism. Where is the balance"

Adhominims seem to be a stock and trade for scientology it would seem. I guess that means you have no proof.
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38 months ago: Shalashar Dekeres

Where are the Clears, you ask.

You probably know a lot of clears in public life such as, for example, John Travolta, Tom Cruise, Kirstie Alley, Chick Corea and many more.
38 months ago: Christopher

Your data is misinterpreted.
MeowMacao
MeowMacao
Andorra
38 months ago: HUBBARD COMMUNICATIONS OFFICE
Saint Hill Manor, East Grinstead, Sussex
OT VIII
HCO BULLETIN OF 1 OCTOBER 1969

SECRET

WHY THETANS MOCK-UP

This question has been the most plaguing one in Dianetics and Scientology.

The ONLY way a thetan ever gets in trouble, the ONLY way he can get trapped or become part of a cluster is by mocking-up and intaking pictures of bad experiences.

And why record all bad experiences? This too is not good sense. One can explain it by a yearning for events by havingness and other ways, but these do not factually lead to a total solution.

The real reason stems from a characteristic of a thetan. He never totally gives up.

There is, seemingly, a streak of resistance or resentment that makes a thetan wish to persist in the same place. If he cannot, he will do so covertly.

All power comes from the ability to occupy a point. The base that separates two terminals must be firm or there will be no exchange of energy.The effort to weaken a thetan is to make him relinquish his point in space. Covertly or overtly a thetan seeks to assert his position in space. If he cannot do so overtly he does so covertly.
MeowMacao
MeowMacao
Andorra
38 months ago: When a thetan is moved unwillingly from a point or position, he
even then refuses to give up that point, but MOCKS IT UP. He also
mocks up the events of his departure as a part of the action of
mocking up the point he is leaving. This, unwittingly, gives him
a picture, an engram.

Now let us see if this theory holds true in practice.

A. Just ahead of any engram there must be an effort to
retain a position and there must be a point or location
being mocked up.
This is true. You can blow an engram without running it
by spotting its first point in space and time. In a
secondary, "Where did you first hear of the loss" is a
vital question.
B. In a Contact Assist getting a person to touch again the
point where he was hurt with what was hurt will blow the
engram.
C. Getting a person to locate areas (locations) that are not
safe produces blows of engrams without running them.
D. Exact and accurate dating sometimes blows an engram.
Those times when it does not, it should blow when the
location is exactly spotted.
E. Implants and traps were done mainly to keep thetans out
of an area. The thetan, resenting and resisting mocks up
the place anyway and so implants himself.
Greg73
Greg73
Canada
38 months ago: I am a Scientologist and I have seen the value of the technology first hand. I don't need any "proof" from someone else. For people that may be interested in Scientology, they don't need proof from someone else either. Scientologists and future Scientologist know how to think for themselves. Ron's books are available in every library on the planet.
I saw a new report last night that states that anonymous's website is going to be black listed by Australia because of child pornography and other questionable materials. Google it and see for yourself.
You won't find much truth in these sites that are under attack by anonymous. If you truely are interested then read L. Ron Hubbard's books on the subject and learn for yourself.
There is not one pure and perfect man on this planet. No one is free of sin. But, by understanding ourselves a little better, and understanding others better, perhaps a new day will dawn for man. Perhaps, one day we can trust each other and have peace on Earth.
38 months ago: "You probably know a lot of clears in public life such as, for example, John Travolta, Tom Cruise, Kirstie Alley, Chick Corea and many more."

Not one of them have demonstrated what a "Clear" can do according to dianetics. Not one.

I suggest you re-read Dianetics again.

@MeowMacao, so what you're saying, in effect, is that you mock up your own past lives? Whoa, thanks! That's just saved me around half a million dollars!
38 months ago: Chef

Your name alone discredits you as an agent of hate.
MeowMacao
MeowMacao
Andorra
38 months ago: Hey, why has Scientology (and its "OTs" who control "MEST") failed so spectacularly in having the slightest effect on the Anonymous movement? Anonymous is fully at cause over Scientology. Guess what? There are no OTs. If there were, Anonymous wouldn't be here. I'll say it again in case your mind was wandering. ANONYMOUS IS FULLY AT CAUSE OVER SCIENTOLOGY.
38 months ago: " Ron's books are available in every library on the planet."

My local library lists that it has two books by hubbard, a circa 1980's copy of dianetics, and one of his pulp works.

"I saw a new report last night that states that anonymous's website is going to be black listed by Australia because of child pornography and other questionable materials."

Childporn is specifically banned on 4chan. Anyone caught attempting to upload it is automatically banned, their IP addresses reported to their local authority and the material itself removed.

Further, 4chan=/=Anonymous.
38 months ago: "Your name alone discredits you as an agent of hate."

Adhominim attacks are not a valid argument.

By continuing to use this and other logical falicies, you only discredit your case.
38 months ago: Criminals?
38 months ago: MeowMacao

I think you can understand that "anonymous" is getting shut down by the Austrian Government.
Greg73
Greg73
Canada
38 months ago: I do believe that chef xenu was trying to say chief xenu. but anyway, it is true either way that the person is more interested in ridicule than discussion.
38 months ago: "I think you can understand that "anonymous" is getting shut down by the Austrian Government."

Austrian? Close, but no cigar.

Australia and Austria, contrary to popular belief, are in fact two different countries.

And yes, AUSTRALIA are indeed implimenting a new orwelian filtering system, one without even the slightest hope of being effective. It'll cost the taxpayers millions, and stop absolutely nothing.
38 months ago: "the person is more interested in ridicule than discussion."

You may be right, but that is a far cry from being a hatemonger.
Greg73
Greg73
Canada
38 months ago: Christopher said, "Look up Disconnection, SP policy, etc... Enlighten yourself to reality. Surely hundreds, if not thousands of people singing the same song can't be wrong..."
Perhaps it would be better to look them up in a real Scientology book so the full understanding can be had. The internet, as all know, is full of misinterpretations and lies. Why not just go to the source and see for oneself?
38 months ago: Wait, are you saying that everyone who criticizes Scientology is a criminal because the criticize it? Or all the critics just happen to be a criminal?
How do you even come up with something like that?
MeowMacao
MeowMacao
Andorra
38 months ago: O RLY? You shouldn't believe all those Scientology press releases sent through Austria's "Pressmitteilung" free-press-release service.
38 months ago: So you have to be a Scientologist to criticize Scientology, but if you criticize Scientology, you are no longer a Scientologist because you've become a suppressive person?

Therefore, there is no one who can criticize Scientology. That's what you're saying.

I am going to criticize you right now by saying that that is ridiculous.
MeowMacao
MeowMacao
Andorra
38 months ago: Haha! Good old "Study Tech," Austria/Australia mix-up. You Scilons are hilarious.

Also, Anonymous is fully at cause over Scientology. We run this.
Chef Xenu
Chef Xenu
Columbus, OH
38 months ago: Kathleen

According to Scientology Corporate policy, as per HCOB (Hubbard Communications Office Policy Letter) of 25 February 1966, entitled "Attacks on Scientology" by L. Ron Hubbard:
"So BANISH all ideas that any fair hearing is intended and start our attack with their first breath. Never wait. Never talk about us - only them. Use their blood, sex, crime to get headlines. Don't use us. I speak from 15 years of experience in this. There has never yet been an attacker who was not reeking with crime. All we had to do was look for it and murder would come out."
Greg73
Greg73
Canada
38 months ago: Shalashar Dekeres said,"Hubbard declared that anyone below 2.0 on the tone scale was to be "dealt with" without mercy... Make of that what you will.
If one read the whole book they will see that the book is an attempt to get people from the lower ends of the tone scale to the higher ones, such as interest(in life), enthusiasm, serenity of being. But as Scientologists, we focus our efforts on helping people that are in better condition. We help the able become more able so that one day we can help the rest.
Greg73
Greg73
Canada
38 months ago: ScientologyLover87
This individual is not a Scientologist. He or she is an anti-scientologist that is using his or her twisted interpretations of our religion to forward more misunderstandings and thus create hatred against Scientologists.
38 months ago: This is hilarious. Either you are a moron lacking even the most basic understanding of how things work or you are a troll trying to start an argument and get people off their task of exposing the abuses of corporate Scientology. Then there is the third choice: you are a devout Scientologist who, over decades of indoctrination, has lost the capability of rational and critical thought. (I'm leaning towards the latter.)

Either way it's kinda funny.

There is nothing Scientific about Dianetics. No scientific method was used by Hubbard and his "findings" were never verified by any professional in any field. For any of Hubbard's ideas to move beyond anything other than theory he would have needed people elsewhere to use his methods to verify and support his findings. A single test (or even several tests) done by a /single/ individual not using any scientific method can prove nothing.

In other words Hubbard's words = theory, at best. They are not absolute truth, not by a long shot.
38 months ago: "Hubbard declared that anyone below 2.0 on the tone scale was to be "dealt with" without mercy... Make of that what you will."

OMG, that's horrifying! And you promoting this 'faith'?!

Chef Xenu, I was going to ask if that was really true...but I think I have the answer now.
38 months ago: "If one read the whole book they will see that the book is an attempt to get people from the lower ends of the tone scale to the higher ones, such as interest(in life), enthusiasm, serenity of being. But as Scientologists, we focus our efforts on helping people that are in better condition. We help the able become more able so that one day we can help the rest."

I read it.

But the fact remains that hubbard was clearly advocating the wholesale slaughter of anyone deamed to be 2.0 (antagonism) or below on the tone scale. You can soft soap it any way you want, but when combined with his statements on, what was it 1 in 5 or so? Of the population being an SP and thus unhelpable, it amounts to a recomendation of genocide of around 150 Million people should Scientology ever become the authority on this world.
38 months ago: My points are well demonstrated here. It is likely to be criminals who try to discredit Scientology.

Is it more likely that an anonymous criminal or a credible person would

(1) Not know how to spell "UNBELIEVABLE"?

(2) Not know that "unbelievable" means "not believable"?

(3) Write in all capitals?

(4) Try to solicit money to a mail box, while claiming to be a Scientologist?

(5) Wants Turks to believe that Turkey will "BE A CHALLENGE BECAUSE TURKEY IS STILL A VERY BACKWARDS COUNTRY AND MOSTLY MOSLEM".

Obviously, Turks would find that insulting and be inclined to reject help once they had heard that false data.

This is an example of someone trying to discredit with false data.

You can bet that that letter does not refer to a real activity.



38 months ago: "OMG, that's horrifying! And you promoting this 'faith'?!"

No, I'm not. I would have thought my other comments made it plain that I am a critic...

Ultamately I take the view that you can believe what you want so long as you aren't hurting anyone (including yourself). Unfortunately Scientology has a long documented history of screwing over it's followers, destroying its critics and infiltrating the authorities in order to silence official actions against them.

That cannot be allowed to continue.
38 months ago: "(1) former Scientologists - people who have failed at Scientology because they are not ethical enough, and"

That reminds me. That's one of the sicker things about Scientology. It doesn't fail you, you fail it. All the blame is put on the Scientologist if something doesn't work. It's never the tech, it's never Hubbard, it's YOUR FAULT. It stifles or shifts the doubt all on the individual. This means Scientology can never grow because it can never change or evolve into anything that isn't reasonably close to what the great con man put down.

And that spells its doom. It might have been hip and new and groovy in the 50s, but it sure ain't now.
Greg73
Greg73
Canada
38 months ago: Shalashar Dekeres,
You said you didn't like Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health. Fine, that is your choice. But millions have and have found it to be very, very valuable. You ask for proof? Well try talking to the millions of Scientologists around the world. But that might not be scientific enough for you right?
38 months ago: "My points are well demonstrated here. It is likely to be criminals who try to discredit Scientology."

Another adhominim. You have not one shed of proof.

"Is it more likely that an anonymous criminal or a credible person would

(1) Not know how to spell "UNBELIEVABLE"?"

Is it more likely that a scientology criminal or a credible person would know the difference between Austria and Australia.

Glass houses and all that...

"Write in all capitals?"

Didn't you hear? Caps lock is cruise control for cool!

Also, you do understand that you've just accused a huge number of AOL users of being criminals, right?

"Try to solicit money to a mail box, while claiming to be a Scientologist?"

Right, because no Scientologist Reg has ever tried to extract money from people comming out of an event, have they?

"Obviously, Turks would find that insulting and be inclined to reject help once they had heard that false data."

They might find it mildly insulting, doesn't change the fact that it is correct on both counts by their own admission with regards to living and social standards compared to the rest of the EU - Which is a huge part of why they want to join.

"You can bet that that letter does not refer to a real activity."

So if I were to use my google fu, I wouldn't find a flier with this on that had been sent out by scientology?

I smell a challenge.
Greg73
Greg73
Canada
38 months ago: Shalashar Dekeres you said "But the fact remains that hubbard was clearly advocating the wholesale slaughter of anyone deamed to be 2.0 (antagonism) or below on the tone scale."
I am sorry but you are so full of crap. In fact, you have just proven the author's point by such a comment. You attempt to demonize Scientologist and Ron like this. There is no policy, book or tape where Ron says that people below 2.0 should be killed. This is just the type of bull**** that proves your agenda of promoting hate. Scientologist believe that man is basically good and that he is an immortal spiritual being. We believe that honest beings have rights. Dishonesty, immorality and criminality must be dealt with. Duh! We do that already with law enforcement. How else does one expect to protect the honest beings?
38 months ago: "You said you didn't like Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health. Fine, that is your choice."

Yes, yes it is!

"But millions"

Citation please.

"You ask for proof?"

Yes. Dianetics makes very, very specific claims as to the capabilities of a "Clear". Yet not once has anyone shown these abilities.

"Well try talking to the millions"

If there are actually 500,000 scientologists worldwide I would be surprised. Otherwise, citation please.

"of Scientologists around the world. But that might not be scientific enough for you right?"

No, it wouldn't be. The purpose of submiting works for peer review have already been covered earlier. Indoctrinated people also don't make for reliable indicators of a given test.

Science is quite clear on what is required to test a hypothesis. It has to be repeatable, it has to be impartial, both on the part of the tester and in this case the test subjects. This is taught (at least in the UK) to every GCSE student going through public schools.

If dianetics works at all, then it should not be difficult to build a solid paper within weeks based on the results from "fresh meat".

The ball is in your court.
38 months ago: "Scientologist believe that man is basically good and that he is an immortal spiritual being."

But SPs are evil and can be "deprived of property or injured by any means by any Scientologist without any discipline of the Scientologist. May be tricked, sued or lied to or destroyed"?

HCO Policy Letter of 18 October 1967
38 months ago: Shalashar, I know you weren't the one to write that.

Jack H., you're not making any sense...Now you're a criminal if you can't spell? And you haven't answered my earlier questions.
What are you trying to say with all this 'criminal' stuff? Criminals like how?
38 months ago: Kathleen G

Criminals are likely to have a lot of problems.

I think the second link I provided should give you a reality on this.
38 months ago: So, in order to criticize Scientology-you have to have a lot of problems/be a criminal of some sort.
That's a...very extremist view of things. And what kind of people would go out of their way to put up a website about people who have different opinions?
If I criticized my mothers cooking-does that mean I hate her now? Or that I'm on the same level as a murderer?
No offense, but Scientology seems a lot more scary now...
38 months ago: Hey, i have read Dianetics the modern science of mental health. Surprise! :)
It does not contain any scientifical research.
Hubbard makes a lot of claims, but presents no studies to back those claims up.

I could however find one hypothesis, now known as the "engram hypothesis", which is interesting, because it is one of the few hypothesis of the book, that is at least falsifiable by a specifically described experiment, which Hubbard himself proposes and encourages his readers to do.

This is the relevant excerpt:
From Dianetics - The modern science of mental health, page 48

"If you care to make the experiment you can take a man, render him “unconscious,” hurt
him and give him information. By dianetic technique, no matter what information you gave
him, it can be recovered. This experiment should not be carelessly conducted because you
might also render him insane."

Now guess what? They have actually made the test and this in accordance with Hubbard's own Dianetics Research Foundation. This means, that the foundation could chose their best auditors to recover the information.

You can read about the results of this study here:
http://home.snafu.de/tilman/krasel/dianetics_test.html
38 months ago: "I am sorry"

Oh I doubt it.

"but you are so full of crap."

So there is no auditing process R2-45 then?

"In fact, you have just proven the author's point by such a comment. You attempt to demonize Scientologist and Ron like this."

I demonise nothing, I have stated clearly that there is documentary evidence backing up my case. All you have shown thus far is logical falicies.

"There is no policy, book or tape where Ron says that people below 2.0 should be killed."

Really? I must respectfully disagree!

"There are only two answers for the handling of people from 2.0 down on the tone scale, neither of which has anything to do with reasoning with them or listening to their justification of their acts. The first is to raise them on the Tone Scale by unenturbulating some of their theta by any one of the three valid processes. The other is to dispose of them quietly and without sorrow. Adders are safe bedmates compared to people on the lower bands of the tone scale."

- page 195 of The Science of Survival by L Ron Hubbard, 2001 edition.

Self loather then I take it?

"This is just the type of bull**** that proves your agenda of promoting hate."

Ahhh, back to logical falicies! Firstly, everyone has an agenda. Secondly, you're beginning to look somewhat foolish given that I have backed up my position with documentary evidence. I follow the evidence and nothing more. I don't do leaps of faith and logical falicies as they're an impediment to the truth.

Remind me again what you have backed up your opinion with?

-- end of part 1
38 months ago: "Scientologist believe that man is basically good"

Unless you're an SP, in which case, all bets are off, to become an SP, all you have to do is say no to scientology...

"and that he is an immortal spiritual being. We believe that honest beings have rights."

I read the code of honour too, I also read the HCOB's which flew in the face of everything you've just said.

"Dishonesty, immorality and criminality must be dealt with. Duh! We do that already with law enforcement. How else does one expect to protect the honest beings?"

Because disagreeing with a scientologist regarding anything to do with scientology, as per this thread and the article is from their perspective a criminal act.
38 months ago: Ok, I call bull****. Scientologylover87, you are simply too full of bull**** to be real. You are simply a troll, posting to piss off people who are against the church of scientology.
38 months ago: "So, in order to criticize Scientology-you have to have a lot of problems/be a criminal of some sort. "


That about sums it up, yes.

"That's a...very extremist view of things."

Oh if you think they treat their critics badly, you should google how they treat their staff, especially those within their paramilitary wing, the "Sea Org"...

"And what kind of people would go out of their way to put up a website about people who have different opinions? "

Better yet, what kind of people attempt to slander, defame and litigate to destruction it's critics?

"If I criticized my mothers cooking-does that mean I hate her now? Or that I'm on the same level as a murderer?"

Only applies to scientology and LRH. But yes, that's about the size of it.

"No offense, but Scientology seems a lot more scary now.."

http://youfoundthecard.com/

That's because it is.
38 months ago: Dianetics was written for the layman. The mental health establishment did not take kindly to having their ineptitude challenged. Early on there was an overture made to LRH to subsume Dianetics under the umbrella of Psychology. LRH would not sell out.
38 months ago: Ok, I pass a motion to make it official that scientologists are bat sh it crazy. Who will second that motion?

*Disclaimer: If you get mad at this, get off your moral high ground. This is the internet, get over yourself. Your stupid if your going to turn this into an argument against people who critisize your cult.
38 months ago: "Early on there was an overture made to LRH to subsume Dianetics under the umbrella of Psychology."

And yet, there is not one single solitary piece of documentary evidence to support this. In fact the only source for this supposed overture was Hubbard himself.
38 months ago: psychiatry = proven science
scientology = pseudoscience
38 months ago: K, this is the kind of nutjob LRH was.
"Because he sometimes suffered from depression, he once checked himself into a hospital to receive psychiatric treatment." You can go to wikipedia, and check it yourself. And unlike some of the stupid arguments above me this has a cited source.
Your leader was anti-psychiatrists, but apperantly he thought that they worked! LOL
38 months ago: Cue a cry of "you liar hater bigot criminal person, you!" from a frothing scientologist in 3..2..1..
38 months ago: And one more thing. I am describing this to the best of my knowledge, i am sincerly sorry to any scientologists if i botch part of it up. One has a soul. One is infinitly reincarnated, from one life into another. Now let say that in 2050, the population of the world is 11 billion. Then 50 years later, the population has gone down to 7 billion. What happened to the soul? Do the souls wait in line for when more bodies are available? And then lets say the population rises to 15 billion by after 50 more years. Where did the souls come from? Can souls be created from nothing, to fill vacancies?
38 months ago: All these uniformed criticisms serve to demonstrate my points.

If your knowingness is insufficient, your criticism will not be meaningful.

Scientology is about helping people by raising their certainty and knowingness, not about pleasing criminals.

You should try it by walking into your local Church.


EBranger

If you sincerely want a knowingness about souls, the Church is there to help.
MeowMacao
MeowMacao
Andorra
38 months ago: If Scientology's ethics technology is so effective, why are so many Scientologists found to be out ethics?

If I'm suppressive, how come you can't shatter me or my suppression? Who can?

How do you know truth? If what's true for you isn't true for me, who's right? Why?

Why is it that simply knowing somebody who doubts your religion is enough to make it all stop working?

The only thing you need to remember is this: Anonymous is fully at cause over Scientology. We run this. That is all.
38 months ago: Jack H Remington, i just got done watching the Tommy Davis interview and thats the general idea I got from it. So it kinda sounds like scientologists themselves don't have a clue what they are studying. Also, good job Jack avoiding the question.
38 months ago: Also Jack, knowingness is an adjective, your using it wrong. Just being helpful, cause thats what normal people do.
38 months ago: Jack, how can you call ANYONE a criminal if they just have a different opinion or see things differntly?!
That's crazy!
38 months ago: BTW, does someone care to answer this. Since scientology is a buisness, can't they be charged with false advertisement. Their name, Scientology, I assume roughly means "the study of science." But, since they do not do that, wouldn't that be false advertising? Just throwing it out there, its been bothering me for a while.
38 months ago: "All these uniformed criticisms serve to demonstrate my points."

I think you mean "uninformed".

Your points were that anyone who disagrees with scientology is a criminal. Thus far, you have shown not one shred of evidence to back up this assertion despite repeated calls for you to do so.

The critics in this thread on the other hand have supplied documented evidence proving that there is indeed something deeply wrong with Scientology.

"If your knowingness"

That is not a word. The word you want is "knowledge"

"is insufficient, your criticism will not be meaningful."

And has been demonstrated, the critics have backed up their arguments with proof. All you've supplied is logical falicies that even a 10 year old could see through.

"Scientology is about helping people by raising their certainty and knowingness, not about pleasing criminals."

Again, "knowingness" is not a word. And so far, the only thing scientology has been shown to help is itself. At the expense of both those working for it and those who disagree with it.

Further, I really am going to have to ask again: Show a citation for everyone who disagrees with scientology being a criminal.

"If you sincerely want a knowingness about souls, the Church is there to help."

As above. And again, the only thing the church helps is itself into the rubes coffers.
38 months ago: Oh, just saw my grammer mistake in my above "knowingness" post. I meant "you're"
38 months ago: Kathleen G.

If your opinions are the SAME as criminals, what would that make you?
38 months ago: THE PUBLIC HAVE SPOKEN. WE WANT PROOF! WE WANT PROOF!
38 months ago: Again, stop reading the lies here on the comments. If you want to know about Scientology which is the only way to know, then seek out your Local Scientology Church.

Also watch out for the cyber terrorist Anonymous group outside of our churches, harassing anyone walking by with death threats.
38 months ago: HOW AM I A CRIMINAL? WHO HAVE I KILLED? WHO HAVE I ROBBED?
Christ, are ALL Scientologists like this?
38 months ago: If you don't recognize hate crimes against the Church of Scientology when you see them, then no proof will satisfy you.
38 months ago: Jack, are you an idiot. Your stupid leader LRH was a crimminal. WTF do you think he was doing on the failboat for all those years, taking a cruise? He was avoding international charges. If anything, you should have an extreme love for crimminals.

Also, it is quite apparent that you are using the word crimminal over and over again because of its negative connotation. By refering to something in that manner, you wish to associate to the speaker as a crimminal. If you have not noticed, it does not work.

Expressing one's opinions, even if they are similar to those of criminals, does not make one a criminal. You yourself Jack love the freedom to practice your own religion. In some parts of the world, this would be a criminal act. Should we start calling you a criminal?

So please Jack, remember the golden rule, Treat others the way you would like to be treated. Lets be mature here Jack.
38 months ago: "Jack, how can you call ANYONE a criminal if they just have a different opinion or see things differntly?!"

Because that's what Hubbard's writings tell him to say and think.

You have to understand that the level of control exerted on those within Scientology is very high. The greatest victims of Scientology are it's staff. Who are quite literally reprogramed into thinking there is nothing else but this.
38 months ago: Kathleen G, to sane, people, you make perfect sense. There is no point to arguing with Jack. He is not here to listen, only here to troll.
38 months ago: Kathleen G Wrote:
"HOW AM I A CRIMINAL? WHO HAVE I KILLED? WHO HAVE I ROBBED?"

Most likely no-one. Unfortunately for you, you will not be able to convince him otherwise unless you submit to Scientology. Scary thought eh?

"Christ, are ALL Scientologists like this?"

If they've been in it for more then a couple of days, oh yes.


Jack H Remington wrote:
"If you don't recognize hate crimes against the Church of Scientology when you see them, then no proof will satisfy you."

Disagreeing with Scientology's actions is NOT, repeat NOT a criminal act, no matter how many times you repeat it!

By continuing in this manner, all you show is how badly twisted Scientology leaves it's victims, sorry, followers.
38 months ago: Omg, i think we are doing it. Logic is winning. What a glorious day for humanity.
38 months ago: Logic: The bane of Scientology.
Chef Xenu
Chef Xenu
Columbus, OH
38 months ago: Jack and other Scientologists don't define "crime" the same way non-Scientologists do. The Tech defines it for them, not the law.
High Crimes in Scientology include:

1. Proposing, advising or voting for legislation or ordinances, rules or laws directed
towards the Suppression of Scientology.
2. Testifying hostilely before state or public inquiries into Scientology to suppress
it.
3. Public statements against Scientology or Scientologists but not to Committees
of Evidence duly convened.
4. Reporting or threatening to report Scientology or Scientologists to civil authorities
in an effort to suppress Scientology or Scientologists from practicing or receiving
standard Scientology.
5. Bringing civil suit against any Scientology Organization or Scientologist including
the non-payment of bills or failure to refund without first calling the matter
to the attention of the Chairman at World Wide and receiving a reply.
6. Writing anti-Scientology letters to the press or giving anti- Scientology or anti-
Scientologist evidence to the press.
7. Testifying as a hostile witness against Scientology in public.
8. Being at the hire of anti-Scientology groups or persons.
etc.
etc.
etc.
INTRODUCTION INTO SCIENTOLOGY ETHICS (1978 Edition)
Chef Xenu
Chef Xenu
Columbus, OH
38 months ago: Other High Crimes in Scientology:

1. Public disavowal of Scientology or Scientologists in good standing with Scientology
Organizations.
2. Announcing departure from Scientology (but not by reason of leaving an organization,
a location or situation or death).
3. Seeking to resign or leave courses or sessions and refusing to return despite
normal efforts.
4. Resignation of all certificates, classifications and awards (but not posts or positions
or locations).
5. Demanding the return of any or all fees paid for standard training or processing
actually received or received in part and still available but undelivered only because
of departure of the person demanding (the fees must be refunded but
this high crime applies).
6. Continued adherence to a group pronounced a Suppressive Group by the
Hubbard Communications Office.
7. Aiding or abetting a person demonstrably guilty of Suppressive Acts in such
acts.
8. Dependency on other mental or philosophic procedures than Scientology(
exceptmedicalorsurgical)after certification, classification, or award.
9. Accepting treatment from a splinter group.
10. Continued membership in a divergent group.
11. Organizing a splinter group to use Scientology data or any part of it to distract
people from standard Scientology.
12. Organizing splinter groups to diverge from Scientology practices, still calling it
Scientology or something else.
INTRODUCTION INTO SCIENTOLOGY ETHICS (1978 Edition)
Chef Xenu
Chef Xenu
Columbus, OH
38 months ago: Jack thinks I am a criminal because of this "High Crime" in Scientology:

D. CRIMINAL ISSUE OF MATERIALS
1. Public Dissemination of false or forbidden or dangerous data.

My nickname is 50% "forbidden or dangerous data." Guess which half?
38 months ago: If your really are interested about why these posts seem so uninformed and disorganized, this site might help you,

http://www.scientologymyths.info/
http://www.scientologymyths.info/aliens/what-is-zenu.php
38 months ago: "If your really are interested about why these posts seem so uninformed and disorganized, this site might help you,"

Ahh yes, the scientology myths site... Except that it is a matter of public record that the Xenu texts exist. Even Tommy Davis has had to admit it. There is even the tape floating around out there in which LRH himself explains the beginnings of the universe, Xenu and all.

Lying for Hubbard much?
38 months ago: I am actually interested why you avoid the questions Jack. I want you, not your propaganda to answer.
38 months ago: Jack, why do you always avoid the questions? You act as if you have all the answers. If you think you can go on these sites and spread your propaganda, you must be ready to answer questions people have for you. Really, the sloppy way you do this is really unorganized.
38 months ago: Jack, avoiding the questions we ask of you does not make the questions go away, just as trying to ignore a dead alien spirit on your thetan does not make it go away.
38 months ago: Jack, why do you deny our beliefs? Hubbard did create Xenu and its teachings.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVqN4ivQ_TM

That is L. Ron Hubbard's voice himself speaking about Xenu's Galactic Confederacy.
38 months ago: K guys, Jack has gotten really cranky and is taking a nappy-poo now with his stuffed alien doll, Mr. Snugglebottoms. Lying to the public is really tiring you know. It's ok, we can wait for Jack to get back from his nappy and try explaining to him what happens when you get caught in lies. Sweet dreams Jack.
38 months ago: ScientologyLover87 wrote:
"Jack, why do you deny our beliefs? Hubbard did create Xenu and its teachings.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVqN4ivQ_TM

That is L. Ron Hubbard's voice himself speaking about Xenu's Galactic Confederacy."

Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwDKg5K3in8
Part 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6P4YV6CfI0

Enjoy :D
38 months ago: Siempre, get out and start your own conspiracy blog. stop being a bigot and harassing my religion please.
38 months ago: You're right - just about any organisation of note has it's detractors. However, and this really is a key issue: Most organisations aren't set up from the start to silence it's detractors by any and all means necessary.

This organisation for instance, is responsible for the single greatest domestic infiltration of the US government in its entire history. (Wikipedia - Operation Snow White)

It hounds and harasses critics far beyond any other organisation I know of and seems to have a vindictive streak built into it by it's founder, L Ron Hubbard.

You talk of the likes of AIG, which I agree is a very serious concern. I talk of an organisation, currently operating in both the US and UK, that has it's own forced labour camps in both of these countries (Wikipedia - Rehabilitation Project Force).

To someone not familiar with Scientology I can understand why you might find some of this discussion odd or even out and out kooky. But serious abuses and human rights violations of every kind are being committed DAILY by this cult on its staff members.

To be clear, the HBO's mentioned in this thread are policy letters, basically the rules by which Scientology operates.

http://youfoundthecard.com/ for a detailed explanation of why we protest.
38 months ago: If you just look at what I've said and ignore the nonsense posted by trolling spammers, you will see that what I've is just common sense. Any religion, be it Christianity or any other, would say the same thing about being attacked and harassed, while practicing their religion as they personally see fit.
38 months ago: "If you just look at what I've said"

What, that anyone who disagrees with Scientologies ongoing abuses is a criminal? (repeatedly, I might add)

"and ignore the nonsense posted by trolling spammers"

More adhoms... Still not managed to answer a question yet though, have you chum?

"you will see that what I've is just common sense."

Libeling people is common sense, since when?

"Any religion, be it Christianity or any other, would say the same thing about being attacked and harassed"

I know of no other "religion" that goes to the lengths to silence critisism that Scientology does, nor any other religion that has infiltrated government offices for the express intention of stealing documents relating to it (as evidenced by Scientologys own documents found as a result of the FBI's raids that led to several convictions). In Canada, Scientology scored a first: It is the ONLY "religion" that has a criminal record.

I know of no other religion currently operating in the US or UK that runs forced labour camps (RPF) either.

Unlike Christianity, which has gone to great lengths to reform and apologise for past crimes, Scientology has not. It still operates overt and covert operations against its critics in attempts to silence/destroy them. It still is in violation of just about every labour law and religious workers law going in the US, and is currently under investigation in AUSTRALIA for abusing child labour! And France too has a case pending for fraud against Scientology.

As I said, I have no particular care as to what you practice or believe, but you do not have the right either as an individual or as part of an organisation to harm people in the ways you have.
38 months ago: Dear Siempre Solo

I have read a few of your posts, as you suggested. It was time well spent. You are a very interesting and amusing thinker.

We just might have to agree to disagree on some things.
38 months ago: Shalashar Dekeres

If you are going to misquote me, and misrepresent what I've said, it's no better than saying "when did you stop beating your wife."
38 months ago: "If you are going to misquote me, and misrepresent what I've said, it's no better than saying"

Nowhere have I misquoted you, and stop attempting to turn this around. From your article:

"This criticism is ALL originating from

(1) former Scientologists - people who have failed at Scientology because they are not ethical enough, and

(2) criminals who have never been Scientologists, so they have no reality about it and have no basis to criticize it."

From comments by you:

"The interviewer was blatantly promoting hate"
"My points are well demonstrated here. It is likely to be criminals who try to discredit Scientology."
"not about pleasing criminals"
"If your opinions are the SAME as criminals"
"hate crimes against the Church of Scientology"

The implication nay, downright accusations you have made repeatedly is that those who disagree with Scientology are criminals of some description. Something you have in common with all other Scientologists who come up against people with legitimate grievence and or concerns regarding the Scientology's behaviour.
Mecca  Anon
Mecca Anon
Clearwater, FL
38 months ago: This is utterly fascinating! according to you, I'm either a disgruntled ex Scientologist (who's not critical enough LOL!) or I'm a criminal?

How about neither? I'm just a working stiff trying to make it in the world. I read alot and unfortunately I read much of Hubbard's stuff decades ago That's what formed my opinion of him and his movement. Nothing that I've seen recently or in the past few decades has altered my opinion that [1] Scientology is a elementally corrupt organization founded using Science Fiction ideas of what a religion might be. [2] There are some very good people in it, but they have allowed themselves to be convinced that being critical to their own organisation is somehow bad.

My friend; if you truly cared about Scientology you would begin to find out why so many people have arrived at this opinion, not because they have read anti-Scientology propaganda, I only need to to point at KSW to illustrate the the dark beating heart of Scientology. Have you read KSW? Have you pledged yourself to this document? If so you are part of the problem. If you have the courage to step back a few feet and critically examine KSW you will see the truth. You will understand why there are mobs chanting slogans in front of your orgs. If you have the courage to go on a real adventure, you will take that first step and become part of the solution.
38 months ago: Shalashar Dekeres

You think that Wikipedia has the correct data? It is a reputable site, you think?

And you also think that psychiatry didn't reject Dianetics because it was too effective?

Are you following all this?

"In July 1949, Campbell wrote to another contributor, Dr. Joseph A. Winter, a physician from Michigan. Winter was intrigued by Campbell's claims about Hubbard's work, but initially skeptical; Hubbard sent him what he called "an operator's manual for your use" which convinced Winter that Dianetics had some promise:

With cooperation from some institutions, some psychiatrists, he [Hubbard] has worked on all types of cases. Institutionalized schizophrenics, apathies, manics, depressives, perverts, stuttering, neuroses - in all, nearly 1000 cases. But just a brief sampling of each type; he doesn't have proper statistics in the usual sense. But he has one statistic. He has cured every patient he worked with. He has cured ulcers, arthritis, asthma.[10]

[...]Winter attempted to interest some medical colleagues and psychiatrists in Dianetics, with little success, and suggested to Hubbard that he publish an article to stimulate interest in his work. Perhaps mindful of the rejection of his earlier efforts, Hubbard told Winter that "the articles you suggest would be more acceptable coming from another pen than mine." [11] Accordingly, in late 1949, Winter wrote a paper "giving a brief resumé of the principles and methodology of dianetic therapy" which he submitted informally to an editor of the Journal of the American Medical Association. However, the editor told Winter that "the paper [...] was, moreover, better suited to one of the journals which dealt with psychotherapy." He revised the paper, added case histories provided by Hubbard, and submitted it to the American Journal of Psychiatry, which rejected it on the same grounds."

From Wikipedia.

38 months ago: I'm not saying Wikipedia is a good source, but you don't seem interested in the real thing.
38 months ago: Mecca Anon

I don't doubt that you know about chanting mobs.
38 months ago: "You think that Wikipedia has the correct data? It is a reputable site, you think?"

Yes

"And you also think that psychiatry didn't reject Dianetics because it was too effective?"

Yes

I read your quote. Did you? Because NOWHERE does it say that it was rejected for being "too effective". It states that it was rejected because it was sent to journals that weren't suited, with recomendations that it be submitted to one that did deal with psychotherepy.

Further, from wikipedia: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dianetics)

"W. Sumner Davis similarly comments that
Dianetics is nothing more than an example of pseudoscience trying to legitimize itself ... Hubbard, had he indeed been a scientist, would have known that truth is not built on axioms, and facts cannot be found from some a-priori knowledge. A true science is constructed on hypotheses, which are arrived at by the virtue of observed phenomena. Scientific knowledge is gained by observation and testing, not believing from some subconscious stipulation, as Hubbard would have us believe."
Mecca  Anon
Mecca Anon
Clearwater, FL
38 months ago: "Mecca Anon

I don't doubt that you know about chanting mobs."

Mecca Anon

... I do!

http://www.solitarytrees.net/pickets/sp960.htm

38 months ago: "I'm not saying Wikipedia is a good source"

Actually it is, not on all things I grant you. But in terms of accuracy its at least as good as a paid for encyclopedia, it is also self correcting.

"but you don't seem interested in the real thing."

I am not interested in listening to you adhom anyone who disagrees with you, or read PR spiel yes. Because I've seen first hand how Scientology treats staff, how it treats it's critics and how it litigates and supresses any who dare question it.
Mecca  Anon
Mecca Anon
Clearwater, FL
38 months ago: So Mr Jack H Remington, I would very much like to hear your opinion on why the doctrine of KSW is valid and why you believe anyone critical of Scientology is a criminal?
38 months ago: This is clearly a parody seeking to paint a bad picture of Scientologists, isn't it? Anyone who criticises CoS is an ex-scientologist, or a criminal? The poll was flawed because it was made up of a sample that were largely non-Scientologist? Now I'm no fan of the Church of Scientology myself, but is there a real need for these kind of machiavellian strategies? Just be open in your criticism of CoS, Jack, and drop these straw men arguments; they only serve to weaken your cause.
38 months ago: "This is clearly a parody seeking to paint a bad picture of Scientologists, isn't it?"

No, sadly there is enough evidence over the net to suggest this is quite, quite real. Hell if you want to check out their attack methods, you need only visit xenu.tv, or the youtube channel of the same name. This sort of falicy fest is downright creepy when seen in person, so to speak.

"Anyone who criticises CoS is an ex-scientologist, or a criminal?"

Yup, it's even stated in their policies (these policies are required reading and must be obeyed if one is to remain in good standing with scientology).

"The poll was flawed because it was made up of a sample that were largely non-Scientologist?"

Anything not completely pro scientology is dismissed as hate speach and the author a bigot/criminal etc. Again, all policy.

"Now I'm no fan of the Church of Scientology myself, but is there a real need for these kind of machiavellian strategies?"

I think this is the real sad thing about it, from his perspective, what he is doing is not only ethical and as per policy, but absolutely necessary. Scientology is a deeply paranoid organisation.

"Jack, and drop these straw men arguments; they only serve to weaken your cause."

Scientology's critics have been saying the same thing or variations on this theme for decades (in the 50's they would accuse critics of being commies, in the 70's nazis. Today it is terrorist or criminal), sadly the policys that govern them are set in stone, the only person who could alter them was Hubbard and he's long dead.
38 months ago: **Clarification to last post:

"Scientology's critics have been saying the same thing or variations on this theme for decades (in the 50's Scientology would accuse critics of being commies, in the 70's nazis. Today it is terrorist or criminal), sadly the policys that govern them are set in stone, the only person who could alter them was Hubbard and he's long dead.
38 months ago: Serious question here to Jack H Remington:

Do you believe Scientology to be a legitimate religion? If so: why?

Because Hubbard did not create Dianetics/Scientology with the intention to start a religion. He made that transition to circumvent laws, namely laws against practicing medicine without a license. And also to gain tax exemption because he liked money. It also means it's much easier to attack critics because those critics are now criticizing a "religion" and not a "self help movement," and so negative labels like 'bigot' can be thrown at them to silence them.

Don't you think it is unethical for any group to cloak itself in religion for such base and mercenary reasons?

My father, who has been a Scientologist much longer than you, admitted this much to me (it not being a religion and the purpose for acting as one: tax evasion). And because Scientology has twisted unethical "ethics" he did not believe this subterfuge was unethical. (Though, this might be because Scientology redefines words. Ethical to him is "good for Scientology" and not what it means to the vast majority of people in the world.)

Wouldn't it be unethical of say...Microsoft to declare itself a religion to shut up critics and gain tax exemption? Wouldn't it be unethical for say...psychologists and psychiatrists to come together, declare their methods to be of a religious nature, thereby stifling criticism, gaining tax exemption, yet still charge exorbitant fees for their services?

You must know the history, you must acknowledge that Scientology was not always a religion so you must think about why it "became" one. This should be a strong indicator of Hubbard's true purposes: protecting his group from government intervention and legitimate criticism in order to make more money. This is a far cry from him being a philanthropist and "Friend of Mankind."
38 months ago: Continued:

Notice how The "Church" of Scientology, unlike many established religions, does not donate money to any causes and has no charities? Are there any Scientology run soup kitchens or homeless shelters? No. Do the volunteer ministers bring with them any goods to disasters that were purchased by Scientology? No. Their purpose is to recruit emotionally fragile, desperate people. And so I must ask: how is Scientology making the world better? Can you show some tangible proofs of good works that can be measured and acknowledged by disinterested individuals with no bias?

I'm saying and asking all this so you know /why/ I am critical of Scientology. It is not because I am a criminal and am against the betterment of mankind, but because when I examine the actions of corporate Scientology and when I examine the texts of Scientology I see a lot that is at fault and counter to the betterment of mankind and is more about the betterment of corporate Scientology's bank account. This is the reason why 99% of those "criminals" are speaking out and criticizing. We believe Scientology to be detrimental to the wellbeing of those most loyal to it and because we /care/ we speak out. We also believe Scientology has no more right to stop criticism than any other "religion." People earn money criticizing Christianity by writing critical books but no one calls them criminals.

And to make it clear: I wish NO harm to any Scientologist (you included) and on the whole I believe Scientologists to be good but misguided people, and I only think ill of those who have harassed and hurt my family and myself personally and those in upper management who take advantage of those Scientologists who slave for them with low pay and no benefits and no real hope of going up the bridge.
TheLegendTomWing
TheLegendTomWing
 Administrator
Philadelphia, PA
38 months ago: How can you support a "religion" that asserts that we were born on other planets in other lives. The Taliban is looking more and more like a plausible alternative.

now THAT is scary.
38 months ago: "The Taliban is looking more and more like a plausible alternative."

That's silly...I hope you were being facetious. Hubbard's misogyny is nothing compared to theirs.
TheLegendTomWing
TheLegendTomWing
 Administrator
Philadelphia, PA
38 months ago: Yes, obviously, I'm not converting to some militant form of Islam, but it was intended to point out the ridiculousness of some of the arguments found in this thread.

Obviously, most people in America feel the Taliban would be a stupid alternative, but so then would Scientology. That's all I'm trying to show.

I just don't understand how you can base a religion off many of the core principals.

BUT! i am open to new ideas, so if someone would care to explain what the attraction is i am all ears.
38 months ago: Ah yes, sorry I took your too literally. My apologies.

"I just don't understand how you can base a religion off many of the core principals."

That's the thing, those aren't the core principals to the vast majority of Scientologists. You have to pay upwards of $300,000 to even know about Xenu and that it's body thetans your auditing away. The rest is more tame and less objectionable, at least before close scrutiny.
38 months ago: Can't believe how many typos I made...
TheLegendTomWing
TheLegendTomWing
 Administrator
Philadelphia, PA
38 months ago: Wait, so what is more tame? to me this looks a bit like the selling of indulgences by the Catholic Church way back when.

What makes it so appetizing for so many? What do people without a lot of money do?
38 months ago: All the beginning courses are innocuous sounding. 'Learning How to Learn' and the communication course and la di da di dah and lots of messages about improving yourself and your work performance and increasing your intelligence. And auditing is quite similar to talk therapy, with some mind control throw in, so it can, conceivably from all accounts, feel good to just talk out the bad things.

As for the money, they lure you in with free things and then smaller priced things and you slowly get indoctrinated. They're also very pushy about getting you onto the next thing, and if you're convinced enough and indoctrinated enough you'll do everything you can (with helpful suggestions from them) to come up with the funds, including coming to work there on staff.

There are probably more ex-Scientologists or people who only dabbled in it than active Scientologists currently. Some people can only go far in before they realize it's not what they want and they quietly leave.
Moneen
Moneen
South Africa, Republic of
38 months ago: It is always ideology or religious police who accuse people who do not conform to them being criminals.
The gestapo of the Nazi regime, the KGB of the communist regime, the Taliban, the Spanish Inquisition, Scientology supposed ethics see criminals everywhere other than themselves.
Imagine the criminal regime of the Nazis & communists & the Taliban judging others as being criminals.
These supposed ethical police looked to exterminate criminals.
This is ludicrous.
Scientology acts in the same style as such evil causes.
Beware of such type fascists always seeing criminals everywhere other than themselves.
38 months ago: I would like to point out that many of the arguments that are made by those here who are critcal of the church have been based on facts and sources. Not empty or illogical arguments that are not backed up by anything like the arguments that the $cilons have been making.
Mecca  Anon
Mecca Anon
Clearwater, FL
38 months ago: "What makes it so appetizing for so many? What do people without a lot of money do? "

Good questions!

One person explained it this way, "understanding that one can train a human being like one can train an animal gets you pretty far in understanding how Scientology works."

It's not as simple as that, early Scientology training is very much like behavioral reflex training. Later you start getting the wilder stuff. By then you are able to accept any "fact" presented via Hubbard's writing without critical thought. Indeed, any criticism is strictly discouraged, until it becomes a reflex. People who have been in the organisation for a long time are unable to think critically about Scientology and they defend it to the hilt.

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Secrets/TR/critique.html

It's quite a racket. You train them to obey without question, then you push them to take more and more expensive courses. People without a lot of money are pushed to take out big loans, those who are unable to take out loans are thought to be "degraded beings" and left alone. That's why you will never see a Scientology soup kitchen.

38 months ago: Scientology is the only criminally convicted religion on the planet, with a criminally convicted (and sentenced to 4 years in jail) leader, the drug-addicted, wife-beating, homophobic, racist, con-man, L. Ron Hubbard.

Nuff said...
38 months ago: "If you want to know about Scientology which is the only way to know, then seek out your Local Scientology Church. "

I tried that, and for 30 mins I had some robot trying to tell me that there was something wrong in my life and $cientology was the only way out. what utter rubbish.

"watch out for the cyber terrorist Anonymous group outside of our churches, harassing anyone walking by with death threats."
again utter rubbish, I've seen the protesters here in London and they are polite, well educated people with a common goal - to inform the public of the dangers of Scientology.
38 months ago: Just for your information, I have been given a tip that a bogus website claiming to represent 'Haiti Dianetics Centre', that uses the same bogus address and contact details found here to try to solicit money, has been found out. I suggest no one sends money there. See my other article about Turkey for more information.
38 months ago: EngramsRUs

Of course Scientology is a religion. It is recognized as such by all democratic countries. Expert, independent theologians, after serious consideration have repeatedly concluded that Scientology is a religion.

But, what now? Someone on the internet says it's not? Big deal.
Mecca  Anon
Mecca Anon
Clearwater, FL
38 months ago: It's a bit like when someone on the Internet told me (just the other day) that I'm a criminal because I dare criticize Scientology. Big deal indeed. You seem to think so!

However, no government, no legal system and no fanatic can tell me what a religion is. That's up to me to decide. It's not for you, your guru, your leaders, your church secret service, your hired goons, bought judges or PIs to tell anyone what a religion is.

The US government (for example) has never once declared Scientology to be a religion. After thousands of frivolous lawsuits and enormous pressure on the private affairs of ordinary people working for the IRS (harassment by any other name), Scientology was granted the sweetest tax exempt status of any organization in history. But it was never declared a religion no matter what your Office of Special Affairs people wax on about.

http://www.factnet.org/headlines/give-away.htm
Chef Xenu
Chef Xenu
Columbus, OH
38 months ago: Your claim that Scientology is recognized as a religion "by all democratic countries" is completely incorrect.

Mecca Anon has pointed out above that in the United States, Scientology has non-profit but not religious status.

Also Austria, Belgium, Canada, Denmark, Germany, Greece, Ireland and Switzerland are all democracies and do not officially recognize Scientology as a religion.
38 months ago: Mecca Anon

So, you are the sole arbiter of what constitutes a religion.

Those religions that have your blessing, if any, must be truly blessed.
38 months ago: North Korea calls itself a democracy, too.
Mecca  Anon
Mecca Anon
Clearwater, FL
38 months ago: "So, you are the sole arbiter of what constitutes a religion ?"

Only to mine-own self. You are not the authority to tell me what a religion is. Neither is Scientology. Contrarily I have no authority to tell you what a religion is or is not.

Mecca  Anon
Mecca Anon
Clearwater, FL
38 months ago: "North Korea calls itself a democracy, too."

It's not is it? People lie.

Can Scientology be a religion?
38 months ago: Ooo, two strawmen in as many postings... Can't shake your addiction to logical falicies, can you chum?
38 months ago: Ooo, two strawmen in as many postings... Can't shake your addiction to logical falicies, can you chum?

^^ Was directed at Jack
Chef Xenu
Chef Xenu
Columbus, OH
38 months ago: "North Korea calls itself a democracy, too."

facepalm.jpg
38 months ago: Scientology was started as a hinky self help group after the success of Dianetics, it became a religion because Hubbard couldn't medically prove anything he was saying and refused to pay taxes.

It's why to this day all E Meters must be shipped with a sticker stating that it has no medical value.
38 months ago: Thank you, Jack H Remington, for ignoring the bulk of my post thereby showing quite clearly that you haven't a leg to stand on in defense of your purported religion. You can't pony up to the fact that it became one for the soul purpose to protect itself and has nothing whatsoever to do with it its legitimacy as an appliable religious philosophy.

"Scientology has opened the gates to a better World. It is not a psycho-therapy nor a religion. It is a body of knowledge which, when properly used, gives freedom and truth to the individual."

- The Creation of Human Ability, L. Ron Hubbard, 1953

Besides that Hubbard's "knowledge", his axioms, neologisms and rules are carefully designed to stop thought, stop the pursuit of truth and stunt spiritual growth. But are we surprised? He was a Grade A liar.
38 months ago: My favorite part about Scientology, is the dynamic range of geeks dweebs, and losers that are involved in it, aside from the unfortunates that are born into it of course.
1) L Ron Hubbard. What a dork, take one look at this ginger kid horse mouth, you know he didn't have many real friends.
1a) David Miscavage - On a good day a water boy, son of a rapist.
2) Tommy Davis - Repressed homosexual fantasist, rich kid.
3) Tom Cruise - Insecure X catholic, repressed homosexual.
4) Kirstie Alley - Attention seeking, obsessive compulsive addict, Corn Syrup whale.
5) Chick Corea- Noodling putz, playing 11 minute elevator jazz, to unstimulated audiences.
6) Honorable mention to all the other org dorks, and staffers that you see on the anti-scientology videos. Wearing polyester pants, and walking around like herded sheep being terrified of what?

Also, Scientology's glitzy promotional material, can be dismissed with a chuckle and a glance. I have seen insurance companies put together more compelling propaganda.

Keep it up Scientology, you have been failing, at fail, since the 50's. The only reason you haven't been shut down yet is because no one cares about a giant bunch of losers. Unfortunate for you the dynamics have changed, because you are losing on the mere whim of people posting youtube videos, and communicating. Hi speed Internet is your real enemy. lol Good luck declaring that suppressive.

You want to know why I don't like Scientology? Because I love laughing at you people on youtube. trying to cope, and fail at basic human interaction, with people that minimally confront you.
38 months ago: In this post:

Scientology Critics 1, Scientology 0
TheLegendTomWing
TheLegendTomWing
 Administrator
Philadelphia, PA
38 months ago: Pssht more like 159 to 0.

i would count each failed Scientologist argument, and each rational argument as a single win.
38 months ago: Lol
38 months ago: You mocked up your life.

All of those people you nominated are so NOT losers, it's not funny.
38 months ago: Ya it is. Its really funny.

Lol, scientology, a knock-off star wars with more philosophy and less action.
38 months ago: "Lol, scientology, a knock-off star wars with more philosophy and less action."

haha! Actually, I'd say it was the other way around. There's very little real philosophy involved and a lot of action: harassing, suing and lying about critics, lying to the media, lying to the police and public officials, bribing those same public servants, policing and jailing some of their own adherents, lying to their public members to keep them in the dark. And, of course, polluting the planet with their reams of glossy unwanted junk mail.
38 months ago: I'd like to know why the Church of Scientology promotes hatred and religious bigotry towards me and others like me for practicing our beliefs. I am a Scientologist and a former member of the Church. I was raised in it since childhood. I've seen the abuses with my own eyes. The threats, friends who've been forced to have abortions in the Sea Org, the low wages and genuine human suffering, the constant intimidation for asking question and the scam to get more and more money from people. I couldn't be a part of such a suppressive, criminal and abusive organization so I left.

I still believe the tech works and that it's useful. I am still a practicing Scientologist who joined the Free Zone, part of several organizations around the world where people can study and practice Scientology outside of the criminal abusive Church. As a result, I've been threatened by Church officials. I've been stalked and harassed and declared a traitorous criminal. I've been disconnected from my friends and family. I and many who are like me have been threatened with malicious litigation and harassed by the Church of Scientology who seeks to prevent me from practicing my religion or having access to religious tech books they claim to own.

They have engaged in a persistant campaign of religious hatred, illegal threats, and bigotry against my freedom to choose my spiritual path and worship as I please. They're the real criminals here. I am not an EX Scientologist, I am a current Scientologist. Why are you, the Church of Scientology, and RTC continuing your terroristic campaign of hatred and intolerance?
38 months ago: So tell me, where is my crime in my story here?

I was the course supervisor for the Org and started a relationship with a staff member. The woman ended up getting pregnant. I was put on mest work and sec checked. The women soon became very, very critical of Scientology.

After all the mest work, sec checks and doing lower conditions, My Ethics officers were both the Snr C/S and ED.

The child ended up being twin girls! I was ready to route off staff and take care of my responsibility in this matter. Okay, you won't let me route off, I will go to a foundation schedule while I take a job so I can handle this. No go.

I was made to w/c HCO PL “Ethics, Justice and the Dynamics”, HCO PL “The Basics of Ethics” and then made to do a bunch of RPEC. I had previously had 1 long term girlfriend and I was like 21-22 when this went down. So having a messy 2d was just not something I was use to having.

After all the conditions, the RPEC and oh, did I mention “Conditions and Exchange by Dynamics”? I had to do that too, It was decided the only solution was for me to give up my rights as a dad. Man, I didn't want to do that. That was the only solution I could come up with after all the “ethics actions” done on me. Hell, it had to have been 100 hours of Sec Checks.
After leaving staff, me signing my rights away always, always and still does burns a hole in my heart. I just can't stand it sometimes.

If I ever meet them how the F---- do I explain this to them? Makes me so freaking mad and sad.

But now back to why I started this thread:

I gave up my rights as a parent, I do not thing if I were a woman and I got pregnant that I would have agreed to an abortion. I say that but heck I don't know. I also don't want anyone here to think I think any less of them or making them wrong or anything as at this point I am pointing to the Church as the cause.

my story is true
38 months ago: yea, I am pissed!

so am I a criminal?
38 months ago: I became a very productive Course Supervisor ( i averaged over 3 Auditors Made a week over a 3 year period in a Class V org) as, again, I was convinced that the only way out of this mess was to make Auditors and get Auditing done so Mankind can once and for all know the answers on the 8th Dynamic.

I eventually became an ED and kept my Org in the top 20 of the B-Day Game for 5 years running. The Org had NEVER been even close to that.

Yep, I'm a "Crim" as Scientologist would say.
37 months ago: As scientologist I have observed that people that were against it were already confused about life, themselves, other religions etc etc.
So trying to "convince" them was a waste of time... One should start from clearing up all the prior confusins they have about life, religions, goals, "spirits" ....
37 months ago: yea, Frank, apply remedy A and remedy B to the Ex Scientologist that protest. That is the ticket.

You just don't get it Frank, just like you didn't even read this thread or my last posts on here.

Sometimes people are against Scientology because of things Scientology (or the people in it) have done. I say sometimes as that isn't ALWAYS the case.

Scientology is a controlling organization and it has you, Frank, by the Balls.

I am a tech guy with many years of experience applying the tech. I surmise it like this "it does not work", It does not produce "cause over life" and until you start looking and seeing for yourself instead of reading all the hype, you will be controlled. period.

I am not a declared Scientologist, just a person that woke up.

37 months ago: "As scientologist I have"

Been told by management

"that people that were against it were already confused about life, themselves, other religions"

I see, so Paulette Cooper was "confused" about scientology trying to frame her for a felony, she was "confused" when a scientology agent, pretending to be her friend whilst all the time setting her up for that.

Just like all the others who have been victims of fairgame were "confused" as to the reason why their lives should be torn asunder.

Just like how those who managed to escape the CoS's forced labour camps (RPF) were "confused" about appaling working conditions.

Just like the Australian authorities were "confused" at why children were being worked 60+ hours a week and rightly began investigating.

Like how the Dutch authorities are "confused" when scientology makes false medical claims regarding things like the Purification rundown.

They were "confused".. Gotcha...
TheLegendTomWing
TheLegendTomWing
 Administrator
Philadelphia, PA
37 months ago: Shalashar, great rebuttal, completely agree!
37 months ago: Thanks Tom, I just wish all of my rebuttals were as concise and sharp.
Mecca  Anon
Mecca Anon
Clearwater, FL
37 months ago:
- FrankG;

You are now speaking as a "Suppressive Person,"
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suppressive_Person) at least according to Hubbard's definition. I think it's time you write a nice KR about yourself don't you? Better yet, why don't you stop wasting time defending those losers and become free, for real.

- pokerplayer;

Thank you for rejoining the human race. I know it sounds silly but that is exactly the way I feel about it. I know it was hard to break away, from friends and family perhaps. It's difficult to contemplate what they say about you, what you said about people who blew from Scientology when you were in.

But now, you can serve as an example to the others trapped in there. It's never too late to change! And the most difficult changes must be made first, for will the be less difficult a week from now, a year from now? Or ten years from now?
37 months ago: Doncha love simplicities? For example, wouldn't you love to know how much you could trust someone you meet? That would make life easier for you because you would not need to constantly re-figure. Wouldn't you love to understand why one particular individual is the center of so much of your troubles? Simplicities like these are examples of Scientology clearing the planet of aberation. But you be your own judge, understand the real stuff and be your own judge.
Chef Xenu
Chef Xenu
Columbus, OH
37 months ago: Terryeo, one only has to look at Reed Slatkin's case to show that what you just said is not true.

If studying Scientology would let you know how much you could trust people you meet, Scientologists would not have fallen for his con, but many of them did.

He's not the only person in Scientology who has betrayed the trust of his co-religionists.

He's not the only person who has ripped of Scientologists. Greta Van Susteren and her husband were very recently forced to return hundreds of thousands of dollars they had taken out of another scam.

How many Scientologists were deceived by the recent Madoff Ponzi scheme? More than you want to admit, Terryeo.

Now take these datum into consideration with the scientific data we have about the narCONon/Purif/Hubbard Process, and the data now known about the Ideal Org scam (where local Churches of Scientology buy expensive buildings with local parishioners' money, then renovate the buildings with local parishioners' money, then give the building to the Corporation of Scientology so the local parishioners can begin paying rent to the Corporation for the building the locals have bought and fixed up).

It would seem Scientology doesn't make you less susceptible to the coercive tactics of liars and con-men, it seems to make you more likely to believe outrageous, scientifically unproven, or financially unsustainable claims. In other words, Scientology demonstrably does the opposite of what you have claimed it can do for one's discernment.

"Doncha love simplicities?"
37 months ago: You think you found an exception. Well, that's fine. But can you draw a conclusion that applies to millions of people from a single exception? I'll form my own opinion, thank you.
Chef Xenu
Chef Xenu
Columbus, OH
37 months ago: No one can form your opinion for you, and no one is trying to.

We are trying to give you the data you need to do your opinion forming.

You can tell your self the the three, not one, but three examples I gave above of Scientologists demonstrating their susceptibility to coercive and deceptive tactics are meaningless, however this doesn't make it so.

Between Slatkin and Madoff, hundreds of Scientologists fell for an obvious Ponzi scheme.

God only knows how many of them have thrown their money away on Purifs and doing narCONon.

So I don't think I found an example, or "exception" as you call it, I have actually found at minimum HUNDREDS of victims whose names can be found in court records, and potentially THOUSANDS of victims when you consider narCONon, who were not able to "know how much you could trust someone you meet."

I have not even touched on abuses in Sea Org, on Staff, and against public on upper level course work. Former members have described allowing themselves to remain in horrible situations, situations they would have never tolerated before they received Scientology processing.

The number could be over a million people directly hurt because Scientology had so degraded their ability to determine the veracity of ANY data.

Look at the data Terryeo. You are not going to take a pill some pharmaceutical factory makes because the factory owner says he knows a lot of people who feel better when they take it, you are going to ask for independent reports.

Why are you going to read a bunch of hand picked win reports, and ignore all other data? It doesn't sound to me like you are forming your own opinion. It sounds like you have decided to adopt someone else's opinion instead.
Mecca  Anon
Mecca Anon
Clearwater, FL
37 months ago: Speaking of "win reports." Those things are written under duress. You know it deep down, that's one reason you get so defensive about them. Imagine someone taking a Scientology course and saying honestly that is didn't really do anything for them. What would happen? They would get dragged into Ethics and brow-beaten about their dishonesty. "It worked for everyone else, we KNOW the tech is perfect, the problem must be in YOU! Take the course over again, go see the registrar for payment."

How long do you think people will will resist in the face of that. Not to mention peer pressure, family pressure and pressure in the workplace should they be working in a Scientology business as many do.

Your wins are extracted, you folks cannot stand up to even the slightest scrutiny. The only conclusion one can get from the evidence is that Scientology uses coercion (I.E.) - the practice of compelling a person or manipulating them to behave in an involuntary way (whether through action or inaction) by use of threats, intimidation, trickery, or some other form of pressure or force. This 'fact' and Scientology's stated goals to "clear the planet," its adherence to the terms of KSW makes the organization a danger to itself and others. Your present difficulties are merely a refection of your own behavior over the past few decades. And you wonder why there are protesters outside *all* of your offices, worldwide?

My advice; blow now and blow quickly!
37 months ago: "You think you found an exception. Well, that's fine. But can you draw a conclusion that applies to millions of people from a single exception? I'll form my own opinion, thank you. "

Yes, you say scientology teaches you trustworthiness. Millions of people thought that this man was trustworthy. He wasn't. Therefore, millions of people using scientology teachings that were supposed to increase awareness of trusthworthiness failed to do so. Conclusion: Test group A (scientology followers) failed to apply scientology teachings in a successful manner. Therefore either millions of people are using scientology wrong or scientology doesn't work.
Moneen
Moneen
South Africa, Republic of
37 months ago: It is always under a totalatarian religious system or political ideaology that thugs are required to keep their systems working as religious or ethical police.
The Gestapo as was the KGB as is the Taliban typical of this.
Any religion or political ideaology that are not underwritten by democratic principles brand anyone who disagrees with them as criminals.
They are totalatarian requiring total subservience & obedience to them.
Scientology is of such a mind.
37 months ago: Hahahahahahahah.
37 months ago: Every single critic of scientology is a criminal? Wow. That's not the talk of a cult at all.
37 months ago: "This criticism is ALL originating from

(1) former Scientologists - people who have failed at Scientology because they are not ethical enough, and

(2) criminals who have never been Scientologists, so they have no reality about it and have no basis to criticize it."

And there you have it in a nutshell.
LOL. A Religion? Like the morons say, do the research yourself. Even look at their Cult-PR / Frontgroups links if you can bare to do so for more than 2 minutes.

Look at real independant thoughts/research/studies.

"You'll be all... like... Bam, Woosh, I understand this, like, a million percent now" rofl :)
37 months ago: "Hahahahahahahah" - Terryeo

He has finally lost it guys. He has snapped. The stress of believing scientology and the rational side of his brain proved too much and he simply broke down and became crazy.
37 months ago: Yay i win
Frederick
Frederick
Canada
36 months ago: Jack, you seem to be saying that there can be no reasonable criticism of Scientology. Is that what you believe? Is Scientology perfect?
Mecca  Anon
Mecca Anon
Clearwater, FL
36 months ago:
No; in my experiences, most Scientology members acknowledge that their organization is not perfect. What they believe is that Hubbard was perfect, his teachings flawless and his words immutable. Any imperfections in Scientology therefor are due to their imperfections in applying Hubbard's perfect teachings. Applying the "tech" as they say.

It's a complete recipe for failure because, although Hubbard had some good notions he was a product of his time (being the early portion of the 20th century) and he was an extremely flawed man who found it necessary to massively embellish everything he accomplished. His organization in that it tries to emulate him has as one judge ruled " - clearly is schizophrenic and paranoid, and this bizarre combination seems to be a reflection of its founder, L.Ron Hubbard." (Judge Breckenridge, Los Angeles Superior Court)

http://www.bible.ca/scientology-judges.htm
Moneen
Moneen
South Africa, Republic of
36 months ago: Scientology plays on the guilt of its converts.
This by theoretically never been wrong always right meaning that what Hubbard spoke & wrote as Policies & so called Tech is presumed being always right & never wrong.
To oppose or disagree with anything about Scientology is taken thereore as always wrong & a Hubbard Technical reason will be given for why anyone oppposes or disagrees with what is always taken as right.
This makes who opposes & disagrees with anything in Scientology always being guilty of been wrong.
This to the extent of declaring such types as criminals & insane because theoretically Scientology is presumed as being right & sane.
Scientology also by its Tech declares that those who oppose & disagree with Scientology bad things can happen to them because Theoretically Scientology is presumed right & good.
This plays on the superstitious nature of its converts.
36 months ago: Critics so amuse me, Mecca Anon there, you've posted a very old statement from an old court case. That was long before the Church was recognized as a charitable organization by the USA, before various governments recognized it as a religion, before various religious scholars had published opinion on the Church. But there you are, going back over old records to find one. Amusing an pointless, but apparently such effort keeps you from playing on the freeway.

And Moneen, lol, everyone has an opinion and yours brings an amusement, it denying individual opinion (...presumed being always right and never wrong). Happy Ho Ho's.
Mecca  Anon
Mecca Anon
Clearwater, FL
36 months ago: "Critics so amuse me" you say with a dismissive wave. "That was all in the past, we are not like that now!" goes the Scientology member mantra. Or the variant as told to me by one of your Secret Police members "we were completely justified whenever we took action and unjustly treated by the courts."

I say again, not you, not Jack H Remington not any court in ANY land has the power to tell me what a religion is. The US government has never certified Scientology as a religion and many have plainly stated that it is not. I belong to several non-profits in the US, non of them come even close to being a religion and they are not recognized as such, just like Scientology.

You people want to call yourselves a religion, a navy or whatever they want, you can knock yourselves out. But no screaming hoard of rude actors, no marketing effort and no campaign of harassment can convince me that you are a member of a religion called Scientology. The only way you can convince me is for the organization to behave like a religion and it has not even come close.
36 months ago: Indeed, Mecca Anon ! No one can ever tell you what the meaning of a word is. But you can understand what everyone else understands a word to mean. Or, alternatively, you can reject that. And same with me, same with everyone.

Courts of law, generally, have found the Church to be religious in nature. Religious scholars have found similar, and have published their opinion. But what you understand a word to mean will always be up to you, as you have said, clearly said.

In general, a Church addresses the spiritual nature of man. My farthing (or penny) says that religion is mankind's effort to understand "spirit", while science is mankind's effort to understand "physical". And I've found the Church of Scientology does that better than any other Church. Happy Ho Ho's, remain skeptical.
Moneen
Moneen
South Africa, Republic of
36 months ago: Give to Scientologists what belong to them EXCEPT never ever allow them to undermine the democratic rights of anyone or to practice persecution against anyone including their own converts.
Hubbard could only establish his Scientology because he was protected by a democratic constitution.
Unfortunately Hitler used democracy to institutionalize the insanity of his Nazism.
It is always those undemocratic intentions that use democracy for the purpose of removing democracy for their own self centred destructive interests.
36 months ago: Democratic Constitution. Eeeek, what if it becomes popular? Eeeek! What if every country's people begin to think they can rule themselves? Eeeek!
36 months ago: I find it hard to find any coherent arguments or logical points in this above post.
Moneen
Moneen
South Africa, Republic of
36 months ago: The stated person is only a tail wagged by Hubbard.
Cannot contemplate that others can be a source of reference about knowledge when Hubbard is taken as an only allowed source of reference about the spirit & mind by Scientologists.
This is the sadness about Scientologists.
Anuway the stated person if a Scientologis is forbidden to interprate what Hubbard wrote & spoke because Scientology forbids interpretations of Hubbard.
They demand that when explaining Scientology only the words written & spoken by Hubbard & exactly how Hubbard wrote & spoke these without any alteration can be disseminated to people.
To have own interpretations about what Hubbard wrote & spoke is regarded as a mortal sin or a very bad overt.
The stated person is very much in contravention of Scientology dogma through own explanations about Hubbard & Scientology.
I know, I served them for many years.

36 months ago: As the "stated person", perhaps I should respond with equal name calling, fingerpointing, disparagment and barking. Okay, here you go. Bark Bark.
Mecca  Anon
Mecca Anon
Clearwater, FL
36 months ago: I certainly will not debate what you think a religion is and you cannot even come close to demanding that I think or believe a certain way. I am not missing the definition of a word as you suggest, I don't care that some court ruled scientology is religious in nature. Calling bad behavior religious in nature does not excuse it from being bad behavior. There is no magic cloaking that can absolve scientology form it's past an reputation. You people want to raise the kind of dirty tricks and illegality you stoop to as a sacrament? Great! It's still bad behavior.
36 months ago: Since this is a Rant about critisms of scientology, i think i will contribute.

I think its lame how if you go to youtube and watch videos of anonymous protests, the scientologists always go up to them and take their picture.

Srsly??? What are the scientologists doing with those pics, making a scrap book??? The next best guess is that they are trying to figure out who the hell the protesters are.

Why would they want to do that? So that they could send them christmas cards? Yea right. The scientologists are obviously pissed and want to figure out who they are so that they can harrass them.

Now what about classic virtues like friendliness, kindness, and forgiveness? If the scientologists don't like the protesters, they should simply forgive them and move on instead of trying to harrass them.

Now Terryo, before you say, "They are trying to figure out who these guys are becuase they have made bomb threats before!!!" we are talking about the protesters who have done nothing else then express their right to protest. To say that the protesters are dangerous, thats assuming that every single person who protests scientology has bombs. Isn't that a little irrational?

So, just contributing, hope you like.
36 months ago: With or without forgiveness, Life moves on. Today's big deal is tomorrow's oh hum. Today's schoolyard bully grows up to become, what? Tomorrow's criminal? Or does he observe our unity, rather than our differences? For the young man whose parents abuse him, whose big brother bullies him, it may be more difficult to realize. We all feel the same feelings, although at different times. We have all felt humiliation, anger and enthusiasm, although at different times.
Mecca  Anon
Mecca Anon
Clearwater, FL
36 months ago: Thanks for the contribution;

What they are doing with the photos is very simple. In Hubbard parlance, each push against Scientology must come from a single individual. If you eliminate that individual "the push vanishes." By disguising themselves, the protesters are making this very difficult. Also the fact that the Anon movement has no center makes the exercise futile, but we all know the tech is perfect so it must be the people applying the tech that's at fault. Photos are taken of anyone committing a high crime against scientology = peacefully protesting and files are created on every individual. files with new data are placed on top. Files are listed in priority by how much material accumulates. People with fatter files tend to get harassed more than people with thin files.

It can also be seen that some of the camera people very obviously don't know what they are doing, some even snap away with their cameras tuned off or lens caps on. Some camera people are just there to intimidate, this is known as "flashbulbing."
36 months ago: Terryeo, did you just dismiss forgiveness as being unimportant? Some of history's greatest figures such as Gahndi, MLK Jr., Jesus Christ, and others known for their compassion and ability to forgive.

Plus, what does your comment have to do with mine? I talk about Scientology being decietful, and you reply with people are all bonded together by the human spirit. Its a nice idea that was explored by "The Grapes of Wrath," but I am having trouble finding its relevance since it doesn't relate to my contribution.

Moneen
Moneen
South Africa, Republic of
36 months ago: Bark Bark is very funny & I laughed.
However if I was still in the position I once held in Scientology I would have u HANDLED for Q&A'ing on forums critical to Scientology.
I would have u handled for daring to express your democratic right to agree with Scientology in the way u see fit.
U see u are not operating according to Scientology policies & are guilty not to my mind but to the mind of Scientology for exceedingly disregarding the policies of Scientology.
U Q&A on lines critical to Scientology which is a CONDITION to the mind of Scientology requiring been HANDLED as u can very easily be seen as PTS person or worse still an SP.
Make up your mind if u are really a Scientologist or just ACCORDING to Scientology a dilletante.
I do not criticise u for u expressing your democratic right but u are certainly according to Scientology FORBIDDEN to be on these lines.
Mecca  Anon
Mecca Anon
Clearwater, FL
36 months ago: "I do not criticise u for u expressing your democratic right but u are certainly according to Scientology FORBIDDEN to be on these lines."

If somebody decides for themselves that to criticize scientology is a criminal act, so be it. People are free to make whatever decision for themselves so long as they don't adversely harm another.

However, the moment someone says in effect "you criticized my religion, you must be a criminal, I am going to find your crimes and make trouble for you," is the moment they devolve into stalking behavior. And that's the mildest thing that they do to critics. As Hubbard said, "destroy them utterly."
Moneen
Moneen
South Africa, Republic of
36 months ago: was once part of "destroy them utterly" thinking I was fighting a just war not with God but with Hubbard on my side.
I suppose I or maybe we all converted Hubbard to replace our outdated ideas of what God is.
This because Hubbard reinvented religion in his image & again I or maybe we the gullible & naive fell for it.
Hubbard was very convincing having captured my or maybe all of our confidence in him.
I suppose its like the little corporal Hitler had millions screaming allegiance of duty obedience & loyalty to him unto death & which they got was death.
I now will only fight for the democratic right to agree or to agree to disagree.
Hubbard like Hitler like Stalin thought democracy weak but they were all beaten by how the weak inherit the Earth.

Mecca  Anon
Mecca Anon
Clearwater, FL
36 months ago: "I suppose I or maybe we all converted Hubbard to replace our outdated ideas of what God is."

That's exactly what happened. People by and large want to follow something. An idea, a person, a god - people like to feel part of 'something' larger than themselves. Unfortunately you can also find folk who offer the sun and the moon to such people.
Moneen
Moneen
South Africa, Republic of
36 months ago: Dianetics was a book written for a Science Fiction Event.
It was written therefore as Fiction.
The son of Hubbard in a Playboy interview told how Hubbard had done no research into Dianetics but had written it off the top of his head.
I don't condemn Hubbard for having written fiction as it is entertaining.
However when Hubbard got a good response from having written Dianetica & money came pouring in then as a person from a very moderate background he put into effect a way of increasing how he could make money.
He put into effect how by establishing a religion he would get rich & no longer work for peanuts.
He reinvented religion & Psychology but of which his basics still remained of fiction.
Dianetics & Scientology can be useful to people especially if they are in marketing or sales BUT how Hubbard reinvented himself as a presumption of a divine right to rule of law became a reinvention also of fascism & communism.
He went too far & overstepped the mark but the power of position with money & possessions corrupt.
35 months ago: In this rant: scientology critics win round 2.
THE RONBOT HUNTER
THE RONBOT HUNTER
33 months ago:
LRH's own words prove the world's claims against Scientology
"Scientology...is not a religion." - L. Ron Hubbard, CREATION OF HUMAN ABILITY, 1954, p. 251.
Here is just .oo1 percent of the stuff you are not told.
LRH used God's Natural laws to make slaves of mankind!
"So long as a physiological phenomenon remains the knowledge of a few and is denied to the many it can be utilized to control the many." LRH (from Journal of Scientology Issue 4-G from Oct. 1952)
"This universe has long been looking for new ways to make slaves. Well, we've got some new ways to make slaves here." LRH (from PDC tape lecture #20 "Formative State of Scientology, Definition of Logic", given on 6 Dec 52)
"All men shall be my slaves! LRH
All women shall submit to my charms! LRH
All mankind shall grovel at my feet and not know why!" [L. Ron Hubbard, "Affirmations", late 1940s] Affirmations, exhibits 500-4D, E, F & G. See Church of Scientology v Armstrong, transcript volume 11, p.1886.
"Somebody some day will say 'this is illegal'.
By then be sure the orgs say what is legal or not."
L. Ron Hubbard, HCOPL 4 January 1966
"THE ONLY WAY YOU CAN CONTROL PEOPLE IS TO LIE TO THEM". You can write that down in your book in great big letters. The only way you can control anybody is to lie to them." - L. Ron Hubbard,

ALL RIGHTS RESERVED
Moneen
Moneen
South Africa, Republic of
33 months ago: The Ronbot hunter is totally corrrect in exposing the contradictions of Hubbard.
In fact Scientology is riddled with contradictions.
A liar will contradict self to confuse others through variance.
This by how if one reference doesn't seem to answer a question then another reference is presumed being the right answers & so one becomes always involved in cross references never ever getting to a conclusion.
Any pseudoscience is pretended science made out to be convincing in its appearance & how it is arranged to look like actual science.
It is the contradictions though that expose such apparent science as fiction.
This means that it is a hit or miss mission that often it can get a hit but more than often it misses.
This is the story of Scientology.
It is based on a postulate that assumes itself being truth because it requires of itself being truth & assumes that its converts will assume it as truth because it requires that its converts believe have faith in it as truth.
As Lincoln stated u can fool some of the people some of the time but not all of the people all of the time.
It can be admitted when anyone is naive & gullible that Dianetics & Scientology can be very convincing
I know as it took one to know one.

33 months ago: Greetings your attempt to reach beyond what you call MEST has caught the attention of those who you consider to be your most dangerous enemies.

Your bridge has derailed you all into confusion. LRH Mocked most of it up, and what he didn't he stole from other beings who we have chosen to show the truth too.

I warn you now that you should undo what your auditors have done. Run away now for those who have recently contacted we who you call enslavers have either gone completely mad or began getting seriously ill.

Your attempts at training your mind to become a "OT" are failed and always shall. Some of you are aware, and able to travel beyond what you call "MEST" I am here to assure you that those of you who are aware will be sent down the wrong direction if you choose to align with Scientology.

I have contacted a few of your OT's that are somewhat aware only to find that they do not see as one who is "Clear" would see. They are polluted, and their essence can not ever become a part of what it once was.

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