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Cops Use Tax Money for Scientology Detox

Posted 34 months ago|63 comments|1,882 views
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Chris D
Seattle, WA
Our friends at the Salt Lake Tribune have done a bit of great reporting. Apparently, the Utah legislature is funding a Narconon program (read: Scientology front) for medical detoxification for cops that have gotten sick after cleaning up meth labs. But there’s not any proof that Narconon (a detoxification program) even works!

“The Utah Legislature continued funding a Scientology-based treatment for police officers exposed to methamphetamine, despite a state-funded study that was unable to find a connection between the drug and officers' illnesses.

As lawmakers were slashing funds for other state programs, they sidestepped public debate and appropriated $100,000 -- enough cash for about 20 police officers to undergo the regimen of exercise, sauna time and large doses of antioxidants.

The funding was added by Senate Republicans in the waning days of the session, with the backing of Attorney General Mark Shurtleff.

"It didn't come directly through the committee," said Rep. Eric Hutchings, R-Kearns, co-chair of a committee that would have reviewed the appropriation. "It was just arranged, I guess, through leadership."

Meanwhile, Shurtleff said plans are underway for two "Hollywood stars" to hold fundraisers to treat more Utah cops. He declined to identify the pair.”

L. Ron Hubbard, founder of the Church of Scientology, started what is now called Narconon as a drug-rehabilitation program based on his book "The Fundamentals of Thought." It was first implemented in Arizona state prisons in 1966.

The "New Life Program" consists of two principal stages: "detoxification" and "rehabilitation." The "New Life Detoxification Program," adapted from Hubbard's Purification Rundown, involves a daily regimen of vitamins, oil, and multi-minerals with special attention to the minerals magnesium and calcium and high dosages of niacin, plus exercise and lengthy sessions in a sauna.

Depending on the location, the course may use "training routines" or "TRs" originally devised by Hubbard to teach communications skills to Scientologists.

These training routines may include TR 8, which involves the individual commanding an ashtray to "stand up" and "sit down," and thanking it for doing so, as loudly as they can. Former Scientologists say that the purpose of the drill is for the individual to "beam" their "intention" into the ashtray to make it move.

Here’s hoping that the Utah taxpayers will read the SLC Tribune’s story and demand that their police force be treated at real detox clinics – not at some homeopathic workout center.



(Original story by The Salt Lake Tribune)
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COMMENTS
xenubarb
xenubarb
San Diego, CA
34 months ago: $100,000 is nothing compared to what Utah will pay if an officer develops permanent liver damage as a result of this Scientology quackery.

How anyone could take this ridiculous program seriously is beyond me. All anyone has to do is google Purification Rundown to see how unsafe and unscientific it is.
34 months ago: My Uncle is a Fire/REscue worker in CT and did their NY Detox program and it cured his Asthma. After 9/11 he was on disability for 2 years, now he's back doing what he loves. We were worried but his own doctor had no more treatments to try and said to give it a shot. It worked and I think having a 15 year veteran back at work and off disability is worth the price. We didnt know it was Scientology until he was done and got invited to a dinner with Tom Cruise. We're jsut glad he's healthy and back to life.
Chef Xenu
Chef Xenu
Columbus, OH
34 months ago: I would be very interested in seeing a SCIENTIFIC comparison of the current health status of New York City's first responders involved in responding to the tragedy of 9-11, specifically focusing on comparing those who participated in the Purif which Tom Cruise promoted with those who have had only more traditional treatments.

What few studies I'm aware of which have been done using the scientific method (control groups and factoring in statistical significance/margin of error) have as yet shown no benefit to the narCONon/Purif programs. One example of this is the study which compared Chernobyl survivors who underwent the Purif with those who did not. No statistically significant different could be found between the general health, the toxin levels, or radiation levels of Purif participants as compared to those who received no treatment whatsoever.

I'd love to see a continuing investigation of Scientology's claims regarding the Purif, however, Scientology has been loath to put ANY of their "technology" to the test since their first (and last) participation in a peer-reviewed, controlled experiment, using LRH's best auditors in the early 1950's. Not surprisingly, the experiments failed to show any benefit to Dianetic processing.
xenubarb
xenubarb
San Diego, CA
34 months ago: I am quite sure that overdoses of vitamins and sauna sessions don't cure asthma. However, Scientologists often offer silly "testimonials" that suggest A + B =C.

Cyanide cures asthma 100% of the time. But I wouldn't recommend it.
seattlescotsman
seattlescotsman
Seattle, WA
34 months ago: Yes, this is ridiculous. Taxpayers shouldn't be paying for cops to go through this religious pseudo-medicine garbage. What next? Are taxpayers going to start paying for programs that provide psychic surgery to government workers who are injured on the job? Or for magical healing crystals for DMV workers who develop carpal tunnel?
Frederick
Frederick
Canada
34 months ago: Chrissy, I am glad your uncle is doing better. The news is though that it wasn't Narconon which has shown to be useless (or worse than useless) in every study done on it, except for the studies from the cult of scientology. What helped was suggestion and placebo. Just be sure your uncle doesn't join the cult. Scientology is very bad for your health, your bank account and your mental state. Please check out my allegations with a variety of sources and as L.Ron himself might have said, "See for yourself".
34 months ago: I'm more curious about how the mormons don't have their own rehab in Utah.
Chef Xenu
Chef Xenu
Columbus, OH
34 months ago: Frederick: As far as I know Scientology has not yet produced any scientific studies where narCONon/"Hubbard Method" participants are compared to a control group. If you know the names of any Scientology studies or can tell me where they were published I would be very interested in reading them.

As with all its other services, Scientology does not offer any scientific data about the Purif (Purification Rundown) or narCONon. Scientology only offers anecdotal evidence, testimonials supposedly by narCONon/Purif participants which say basically the same kinds of things Chrissy has said about her uncle.

It should also be noted that, like most other Scientology services, narCONon/Purif completion is accompanied by "writing up" your "wins." Yes, that's right, to complete the program, you MUST make a written statement that it helped you, even if it didn't. If you do not, they do not consider that you have completed it, and you are very likely not included in their promotional "statistics."
34 months ago: Narconon has done studies and published the results. See http://www.methamphetamineaddiction.com/research_reduction.html
Chef Xenu
Chef Xenu
Columbus, OH
34 months ago: Merrill: The "study" you link to is not a scientific study, though the author is clearly familiar with the format scientific studies use in publication.

Please notice there is no control group data. There is, in fact, no control group. There is no way to judge the data presented without a control group, and nothing to suggest the results recorded would be significantly different in the control group, had they decided to actually use the scientific method and include one.

The study does a good job of collating the "win" write-ups of a small number of narCONon participants who managed to complete the program.

All this, however, tells us nothing about whether or not narCONon works. It does tell us two things, however.

1) The study shows the human body reduces levels of drugs and drug byproducts in its systems over time, a fact we already knew.

2) It also tells us people who manage to complete the program report they "feel better," also no surprise to those who know you must do so to complete the program.

Please link to a study that uses strict scientific protocols, as the "study" you linked to barely merits the label.
Chef Xenu
Chef Xenu
Columbus, OH
34 months ago: Those of you not wearing Corporation of Scientology blinders might want to take a moment to write to your legislators and governor about this issue.

I for one certainly don't want my tax dollars going to a scam that is going to put misinformed veterans, police and firefighters (who I depend on to protect my liberty, person and property) through a possibly dangerous regimen of vitamin overdoses and dangerously long periods in the "sauna."

No amount of anecdotal evidence should be taken as reason to do this to our Police Officers, Firefighters, and Veterans! They should receive the best scientifically demonstrated medical care our society has to offer.

If the Corporation of Scientology has technology that works, they should submit it to independent, scientific testing, and stop producing PR material designed to look like academic papers.
34 months ago: Why don't we just see if this works, then everybody can go off on a tangent about scientology. This is something that can be scientificaly studied, apart from our opinion of a religion that few really know about. There is no belief in this at all. Just watch and see if it works or not. I guess that the testimonaly 'wins' from the people that have done it aren't worth anything because 'obviously they are brainwashed or something' But even if it does, I will bet that the haters out there will never ever agree that it did. I even see that someone got in a shot at the mormons on this one. There is just so much hate on these posts. Look up definition of a Bigot and see if you don't see one in the mirror every morning when you shave. If you do something that makes you happy, and doesn't make others unhappy, isn't that enough proof that it is something to be embraced? That is the basis for religion. It should make one happy when one does it, or lives by its preecepts. I am sure that the pedophiles on these posts will make something of that, it just goes to show what kind of opposition there is to any form of betterment. Anomoyous are just haters. When they are done with Scientology, they still won't have made anything of themselves. Truly a waste of space.
xenubarb
xenubarb
San Diego, CA
34 months ago: This program has been reviewed by medical experts in California as part of a concern by educators that it was not up to public school standards and might be misleading.

The theory behind the "Purif" was found lacking in science, accuracy, and scientific principles. As part of the Narconon program, the purif is sold secularly, just as with Criminon, Second Chance and the NY Rescue Workers Detoxification Project.

Their drug education program, which teaches utter nonsense about how drugs are stored and excreted from the body, shows that L. Ron Hubbard knew nothing about physiology.

The program was expelled from public schools in California, Hawaii, Boston and New York. It's theories were rejected by medical experts.

Basically, it's a fraud. A dangerous, potentially health damaging fraud. If Scientology spent as much time promoting effective programs as it does trying to sell this garbage to communities, it would be something remarkable and worthy.

Instead, all it has to sell are the writings of L. Ron Hubbard, a con man of unparalleled humbuggery.

It's sad that idiots like the ones in SLC have fallen for this elaborate con, and wasting public money to endanger the health of their police department.

Maj2009 had one right thing to say. Scientology programs are a waste of space.
Chef Xenu
Chef Xenu
Columbus, OH
34 months ago: MAJ2009:

Plz lrn 2 ¶

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paragraph
34 months ago: This one really amuses me. The people who have done the program say their job performance is like it once was, they feel much better, more lively and alive. In short, taxpayers are getting energetic cops with the experience of cops who have stayed the course. Which is a pretty good bargin. And they say there's not a word of religion to the program.

But, on the other hand the program is criticized endlessly by people who have never done the program, have never been exposed to meth, have never been exposed to toxic chemicals. But instead sit behind their piles of books and find reasons why the program can not work!

Amusing, heh. Much the same as the New York 9/11 group that Tom Cruise put into the news. Everyone who did the program reported they felt better. Most threw away their inhalers. But people behind piles of books, who never sweated a day, "prove" the program can't work.
xenubarb
xenubarb
San Diego, CA
34 months ago: What's amusing is the number of marginally literate Scientologists who absolutely do not understand the scientific method, and who are perfectly happy wallowing in anecdotal testimonials in place of solid proof.

There is absolutely no scientific proof that toxic doses of vitamins and dangerously long sauna sessions produce as claimed. Here are some scientific facts for you.

Drugs and toxins are not all stored in fat.
The only thing excessively long sauna sessions can do is cause a loss of electrolytes and dehydration. The amount of toxins excreted is minimal.
Toxic doses of niacin can cause blindness and permanent liver damage.

These are medically proven facts.

No wonder people feel better after stopping this abuse of their bodies. Remember the joke about the guy who was asked why he was hitting himself in the head with a hammer?

"Because it feels so good when I stop!"
Wow, indeed.
34 months ago: Folks,

I can find no studies on the Purification Rundown done by independent researchers. As you probably know, independant research has to be funded, and apparently there have been no funds provided for this - probably because there's no money to be made by the pharmaceutical or medical industries from this technique. There are many people on the Internet who question the technique, but I CAN FIND NO EVIDENCE that it is harmful or that people have been harmed - quite to the contrary.

The statements on this rant, as elsewhere, that this is a harmful process are individual opinions with no apparent data to back them up.

There are numerous case histories documented by M.D.'s who are also Scientologists, on the efficacy of the Purification Rundown. Here are a sampling:
http://www.detoxacademy.org/pdfs/Parshkov_abstract.pdf
http://www.detoxacademy.org/pdfs/Rachinow_abstract.pdf
http://www.detoxacademy.org/pdfs/Root_abstract.pdf
http://www.detoxacademy.org/pdfs/Kerr_abstract.pdf
http://www.detoxacademy.org/pdfs/Kerr_abstract.pdf

There are numerous personal testimonies by non-Scientologists who have completed the program documenting the change in their physical condition and improvements in their life. I do note the comments made above that to complete this program you must provide a testamonial. So where are the individuals who tried to do this program and found it did not help them, or that they reverted to prior conditions after completion? There are apparently several hundreds, if not thousands, of people willing to state that this program was effective and helped them. I've yet to hear of even a few failures - and out of several thousands completions I would expect a few failures.

My conclusion - the critics of this program are confusing their bias of Scientology with their evaluation of this procedure. As a result, they wish to prevent the application of something that seems to be very beneficial and has not proven to be harmful.
xenubarb
xenubarb
San Diego, CA
34 months ago: Aww, isn't that cute. Personal testimonials and a bunch of hogwash from detoxacademy.org, a faintly covert cover to promote Narconon.

You want scientific proof?
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Narconon/detox.htm

Carnegie Mellon's website, posted by Dr. Dave Touretzky, a real scientist rather than one of those paid shills who ignore the science behind the fraud.

Learn to research. Surely Merrill, you don't expect us to believe that you've reviewed all of "a few thousand completions!" That's as fatuous as expecting us to believe that Tom Cruise can read and comprehend pharmaceutical reviews of drugs, as he claimed while berating women for seeking help for post-partum depression.

The Purif has harmed people whose health cannot tolerate the program. Of course, you didn't really do any research at all. You're just pretending so you could post that list of links that track back to Scientology's promo sites.
34 months ago: Xenubarb:

I followed your link and read Dr. Touretzky's article. This is not a study done of the Purification Rundown. It is Dr. Touretzky's links to data as to why the rundown may be harmful. No study was done. No case evidence presented. He is taking data from other areas and extrapolating it to the rundown. Certainly a good way to form a hypothesis, but not a way to test and prove a theory. Don't throw this up to the world as Scientific proof. It isn't.

It still appears to me that there is no hard evidence that the rundown harms people. No such study has been done. Nor, apparently, has any scientific study been done to determine the program's benefits.

You say the Purif has harmed people who cannot tolerate the program. What data do you have here? One, maybe two cases? Out of thousands who've done the program that seems like a minor statistic. People are required to get a full physical and okay from their medical doctor before doing the Purif. Did the people you say were harmed get checked out first? Did their doctor miss something? Sex is harmful if you can't tolerate it; People have died having sex!!! Perhaps we should ban that activity!

So, the only real data we have is the statements by people who have done the program. Throw out the Scientologists' statements and look at what the firemen from the NYFD said.

I'm not pretending anything Xenubarb. My opinion is that you are so biased against Scientology that you will throw out anything that may be of benefit from that organization. That's like denouncing fireworks because you don't like the Chinese.
xenubarb
xenubarb
San Diego, CA
34 months ago: The studies shown are of the elements that make up the Purif.
The vitamin dosages and sauna sessions are clearly hazardous at the levels utilized by the program.

That said, if the elements of the program are dangerous, the program is dangerous. I suspect you're being more than a bit disingenuous here.

Do you think that dangerous elements somehow magically become safe when utilized by the Purif?
bob dobbs
bob dobbs
Geneseo, NY
34 months ago: "Nor, apparently, has any scientific study been done to determine the program's benefits."

Gee, I wonder why that is? I'm also shocked that Bernard Madoff did'nt submit his trading activities to be studied at a college, to find out why they were so succesful.
34 months ago: To undersdand the purification Rundown you should read the book "Clear Body, Clear Mind".
I did the program and I had several positive effect.
To answer some of the post:
- Vitamins are taken and are balanced.
- Salt lost during the saune is replaced.
- You can go to any church of Scientology and ask for success stories written by people after finishing the program.
- Regarding "scientific method" is that being used to approve all the psich drugs used agains children theyr parents and grandparents?
34 months ago: Actually, Dobbs, it is worth a "scientific study" and application has been made more than once for government funding. But, alas, such study has not been funded. So, put your vote where your mouth is on independent, third party studies. No person or group has made a study because the government has not funded a study. And this government funding is how almost all "studies" are done. You want a study? Put your vote to it, write your congressman.
Frederick
Frederick
Canada
34 months ago: Let's get serious for a minute. L.Ron Hubbard was a convicted fraud (four years in France) who also said (in Dianetics the Modern Science of Mental Health) that he could give people 20/20 vision, a perfect memory, a computer-like mind, no colds, no asthma, that cancer has been eradicated using his procedures, and that a clear is to a normal what a normal is to a psychotic. He claimed to have experimented with 270 people and that his results were as consistent as results in physics or chemistry. That is the tip of the iceberg of his claims. When I was in the cult he was selling OT8 and claiming that it gave people control knowingly and at will over matter, energy, space, time, life and thought. Now after all these years we have never seen anyone with attributes he claims. Why would anyone take him seriously on any claim at all after this history of deception? Terryeo, Merrill and anyone else who is still "donating" money to the cause, the real issue is not if Hubbard's claims are accurate, they're not. The issue is what is in the make-up of about 50,000 Americans, including a bunch of movie stars and some legislators in Utah, that they could fall for this transparent crap.

Chef Xenu
Chef Xenu
Columbus, OH
34 months ago: Terryeo said: "government funding is how almost all "studies" are done"

Why do you think this? This is not the case. Scientific studies to test most products in nearly every industry are paid for by private interests.
Chef Xenu
Chef Xenu
Columbus, OH
34 months ago: FrankG:

I have read Clear Body Clear Mind, cover to cover. It is full of bad information. The author(s) clearly had little or no understanding on how radiation works (I am a NFAS and NNPS graduate, and so am qualified to make this determination).

My friends in the medical field whom I have sown it to tell me it is equally wrong in regards to its claims about running out toxins and drug residues. They have also told me of the dangers inherent in ingesting such high doses of vitamins (what the book outlines is FAR from "balanced") and that the extended periods in the sauna can also be dangerous.
xenubarb
xenubarb
San Diego, CA
34 months ago: "To undersdand the purification Rundown you should read the book "Clear Body, Clear Mind". "

Yeah, right. Another book of Hubbardian claptrap, and about as balanced as going to Scientology websites to gain valid information.

Yes, I am sure that one can go to any Scientology business front to ask for anecdotes and testimonials. Of course they're going to tell you how great it is. You wouldn't expect a Ford dealer to tell you their product is junk, would you?

Then don't expect any hard data from Scientologists. It is in their interests to keep flogging the fraud.

Science doesn't lie.
Scientologists often do.
bob dobbs
bob dobbs
Geneseo, NY
34 months ago: Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof, Terryeo, and the burden of proof is on you. I'm not charging people thousands of dollars to sit in a sauna and take vitamins, you can buy vitamins
at the drug store very cheaply and the YMCA has a sauna and a
pool. Don't you have any moral qualms about charging someone a %30000 percent markup?

I would'nt ask the government to fund a study about whether chupacabras or Bigfoot exists, if you get my drift. Do I need to explain in more detail why that would be?

Scientology has 40 million to refurbish one building in Clearwater, Scientology has $60,000 to take out a full page ad in the New York Times calling the German government Nazis. Top Scientology celebrities lobby the State Department to put pressure
on the German government so it will stop it's scrutiny of Scientology. All these assets and resources but you can only come
up with some vagueness about trying once?
34 months ago: News Flash!!!
Haz-Mat gear!
34 months ago: Extraordinary claim: People feel better after doing a detox. Steam baths have been popular in the orient for generations. But saunas probably begins with the Swedes, generations ago. Sauna became part of the Swedish culture and you'll find many in that country today. You will also find many scattered throughout Europe, often at health clubs. While in America we go to the gym to work our muscles, do some yoga and so on, European spas and health clubs often include a sauna. This idea that you feel better after a good sweat is nothing new. And it is fairly common to find a club offering a week end retreat for health. These include sauna time and herbs to cleanse the body.

Hubbard's application of this widely recognized, but extraordinarily unstudied health technology includes vitamins. You know, the stuff you can purchase at Safeway and food stores and health food stores. It includes moderate exercise. The proof? Well, here's a link, but there are many, many links where people say they feel better after a good sweat. http://www.nypress.com/article-16488-the-rundown-on-scientologys-purification-rundown.html
xenubarb
xenubarb
San Diego, CA
34 months ago: Terreo, can you quit being such a misleading mollusc for one minute? Just because a sauna makes you feel good does not mean more of the same is better. Same with vitamins. Read this and try to comprehend that the Purif sauna is NOT THE SAME as what you are talking about!

Sauna periods are far beyond what is recommended as safe. Ordinarily, one is strongly advised not to stay in a sauna for longer than about 15-30 minutes. Narconon's clients stay in the sauna for up to five hours at temperatures of up to 80C (170F), ten times longer than the recommended maximum. This poses major risks for health; such a lengthy period of extreme heat can easily lead to hyperthermia, heat exhaustion, salt or potassium depletion, heat stroke and breathing difficulties, which could prove highly dangerous for asthma sufferers. Indeed, Hubbard's book Clear Body Clear Mind, upon which the programme is based and which the supervisors are required to study, includes a list of actions to be taken in the case of overheating, salt or potassium depletion or heat stroke. Such risks would be far less likely if the use of the sauna was not so excessive. It is for this reason that the Californian government's Department of Industrial Relations has declared the use of the Hubbard method to be "inappropriate" for dealing with occupational asthma. [See http://www.dir.ca.gov/imc/asthma.html]

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Narconon/detox.htm



bob dobbs
bob dobbs
Geneseo, NY
34 months ago: Terryeo, your extraordinary claim is "Our vitamins and sauna that cost 50 bucks in the real world are worth the
10000 percent markup that we charge, because it contains
special Scientology magic, it's based on all the research
papers from L Ron Hubbard that we've never been able to produce". Anecdotal marketing hype and testimonials and nothing else don't magically make 50 dollars worth 5000 thousand, Terryeo.

I'll ask you again, don't you have any moral qualms about
charging taxpayers or law enforcement a 10000 percent markup? and how can a business that makes 10000 percent profit not fund it's own research?

L Ron was shockingly ignorant when it came to science, I doubt he even knew what potassium and sodium are, much less
what sodium depletion would be. I'll leave the health issue for other people though, there's plenty to attack on just the profit motive.
34 months ago: Good point. Again, have a look at what people who do it say. Rather than the 1984's doublespeak that critics - who have not done it - rave about. Use your own good sense. And address your rave a point at a time. For example, the amount of time in sauna. It is not so different than European health clubs which might run for 2 weeks. And the vitamins, which many health-concerned people take in greater quantities than, perhaps, you are used to. And the moderate exercise, good for almost anyone, almost anytime. And the theory, that sweat removes toxic chemicals from fatty tissue. I've done an equivalent and I'm happy to say, the results are positive. But you judge for yourself, based on what you think to be good evidence.
bob dobbs
bob dobbs
Geneseo, NY
34 months ago: By Terryeo's logic, people can smoke crack because it makes
them feel "good". Terryeo is explicitly vague, he talks about 1984 doublespeak because he can't refute the citations or quotes on the wikipedia article about the purification rundown or David Touretzky's
website, from numerous doctors and scientists. Only one doctor, who has connections to scientology, has anything positive to say about it.
All of these doctors and scientists have called it quackery at best, if not downright dangerous. L Ron had the scientific knowledge of someone from the 13th century
, it's not surprising that his concoctions are dangerous.

Terryeo, why is Scientology entitled to charge $5000 dollars for $50 worth of sauna-time and vitamins. Where are the research papers saying that Scientology's version of these things are worth a 10000 percent markup. I know
they don't exist, but I'm going to ask you anyways.

34 months ago: Oh, now I'm supposed to consider David Touretsky valuable in some way, an authority. The man who uses his university employment to post pages about how to make bombs. How to successfully deploy the bombs you make into police vehicles. Oh yeah, that guy's reputation reputation is high repute, no doubt. LOL.

And now you are arguing quantities of money. Does this mean that you understand there might, possibly, maybe, be something valuable? Woot!
xenubarb
xenubarb
San Diego, CA
34 months ago: Terryeo,

When you start to bloat and turn yellow, blame the purif. Your arguments are specious, you try to slither around the science that proves the hazards, you make up false data without offering any documentation, and you wander off into side issues such as Dr. Touretzky's free speech pages.

Fail, bub. Don't come whining to us when your liver dissolves, pal. Oh, and have you ever been on the Freewinds?
Maybe you will come down with asbestosis and your lungs will fail before your liver.

Good luck with all that Scientology 'healthy living!'
Chef Xenu
Chef Xenu
Columbus, OH
34 months ago: Based on what people who do it say, you should go to psychic surgeons in Mexico and have tumors that look suspiciously like chicken livers pulled out of your body without cutting the skin.

Based on what people who do it say, you should walk around with magnets strapped all over your body to handle your ailments.

Based on what people who do it say, you should take mercury capsules to treat a variety of ills and social diseases.

If you are actually sick, choosing one of the first two over a scientifically proven course of action could lead to your untimely end. The last example could cause no end of problems or possibly lead to death even in a healthy person.

When the Corporation of Scientology promotes the Purif/narCONon/Hubbard Process, they don't simply claim it will make you "feel better." If that was there only claim about the Purif, it would probably not be criticized nearly as much. They go much further, both in their own publications, and in the promotional material published by their licensees.

They call it a "detox." This in itself constitutes a claim that it removes toxins either better, faster, more completely, or more safely than allowing nature to take its normal course. There is NO scientific evidence the Purif/narCONon/Hubbard Process does any of these, in fact, the scientific evidence which DOES exist is decidedly contrary to the Corporation of Scientology's claims.
(continues below)
Chef Xenu
Chef Xenu
Columbus, OH
34 months ago: (continued from above)
They say it speeds up elimination of radiation from the body. To anyone who has read Clear Body Clear Mind (which outlines the entire Purif/narCONon/Hubbard Process) and are also up to speed on what radiation is and how it works, this Corporation of Scientology claim is simply and obviously ludicrous. Again on this point, scientific evidence is diametrically opposed to the claims made by the Corporation of Scientology and their licensees.

They say the vitamins are safe and balanced. The role of niacin toxicity in hepatic (liver) failure is well known, however, as are its role in many other unpleasant and even potentially fatal conditions.

Anecdotal evidence is more dangerous than helpful when it comes to letting medically untrained strangers using unproven techniques play doctor with your health. Especially when you let them pick and choose which anecdotal evidence you see.

There have been very many dissatisfied customers, but the Corporation of Scientology won't be sharing their stories with you. For that you should visit http://www.forum.exscn.net/index.php and read the "My story from inside Scientology" forum and the "Scientology front groups" forum, where people are free to share both the good and bad stories about their experiences with the Purif and in narCONon.

Half the story is always just half the story, and uninformed/misinformed humans are notoriously bad at making good informed decisions.
bob dobbs
bob dobbs
Geneseo, NY
34 months ago: Terryeo, can you stick to the point please? Why would bomb instructions that Touretzky put on his site to test free spech restrictions have anything to do with the quotes and citations from doctors and scientists calling the Purification Rundown quackery? Those are real scientists and doctors, Terryeo, they'd
say the same thing if I called them up on the phone. That's not the case with the people Scientology claims support from, when those people are contacted it's found they've never made any such statement. Shall I cite some instances of that?

Terryeo, what gives Scientology the right to charge people $5000
for $50 worth of sauna time and vitamins? Can you answer that for
me please, do Scientologists add special pixie dust from Marcabia
that increases the value 10,000 times? Terryeo, just give us something that tells us you're not ripping people off, if not endangering their lives.
bob dobbs
bob dobbs
Geneseo, NY
34 months ago: "Something might be logical, but that does'nt mean it's bio-logical" is one way I've heard it put in a book about horticulture.
Just because vitamins might be good and neccesary for human life
does'nt mean that a thousand times the amount in a pill form is good. It's unfortunate that L Ron was so completely ignorant about
science, and that he's still capable of influencing people.

But ignorance is one thing, dishonesty is another. Who would
buy or trust anything from someone who has to lie about his own
background?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_About_Radiation
Despite calling himself a nuclear physicist (some editions of the book even call him "one of America's first nuclear physicists" on the dustjacket), Hubbard was in no way a certified physicist, nuclear or otherwise. His alleged degree was from Sequoia University, an unaccredited diploma mill. The only course in nuclear physics Hubbard ever took was in 1931 at George Washington University, whose records indicate that he scored an F in the course. [1] Hubbard dropped out of school shortly thereafter, with a 2.28 grade point average. [2]

In February 1966, Hubbard defended his mail-order degree: "I was a Ph.D., Sequoia's [sic] University and therefore a perfectly valid doctor under the laws of the State of California". But only a month later, he announced: "having reviewed the damage being done in our society with nuclear physics and psychiatry by persons calling themselves "Doctor" [I] do hereby resign in protest my university degree as a Doctor of philosophy (Ph. D.)" [1]

In your opinion Terryeo, was L Ron a "perfectly valid(I'm surprised it's not "bonafide") doctor" in the same way that
a person who's spent 8 or more years in college is?
34 months ago: I see, you are questioning me for my personal opinion about the "bonafides" of L. Ron Hubbard's education. Woot! A direct question from Mr. Dobbs after months of meeting on various websites. Woot!

I don't know. Have a nice day.
34 months ago: Terryeo, how bout you stfu and gtfo? Sarcasm is the protest of the weak. Want proof, go read "A Chocolate War." (Warning: This isn't a made up science ficition. The literature has symbols and motifs, not bullsh*t like other works *cough Dianetics *cough).
34 months ago: When I say, "I don't know", then I mean, "I don't know". What does that mean? Well, it means I don't have enough information to respond. I'm not an expert about Ron Hubbard's life. I've read much of the same information you have read. But, whatever Hubbard's background and education he produced a product I find useful. Therefore I simply don't think of the "bonafides" Bob Dobbs attacks to be worth much attention. Hubbard wrote what I find to be useful information. He attacks its source. I didn't meet Ron when he was alive, never talked with him, I simply don't know except by reading, what his education was. No sarcasm intended.

What is a "nice day"? Well, spring is in the air, enjoy some space, look at plants in bloom or something. Hell, open a window and get some air instead of coughing up your sleeve. lol.
bob dobbs
bob dobbs
Geneseo, NY
34 months ago: Is "attack" a Scientology euphemism for a question you don't want to answer? That's fine, but how does this look to all the wogs out there, they see doctors and nurses risking their lives in places like Sudan for little or no money, and then they see Scientology come along and charge a 10000 percent markup for something that's worth 50 bucks. With no justification except some vague statement that it makes people "feel better".

Anyone with the least amount of skepticism is going to question this, Terryeo, not just suppresive persons like me. L Ron was used
to seeing testimonials in magazines back in the 50's, the world has grown up since then, his marketing techniques won't work like
they used to.

Even I, with my limited laymen's knowledge of chemistry, can look
at some of these chemicals that are used in meth-cooks and tell
you that they don't accumulate in body-fat, the Purification Rundown would have no effect on them. Red phosphorus is dangerous because it integrates itself into bones, it used to dissolve matchmakers jaws in a disease called "fossy jaw". The organic sovlents that are used are carcinogenic and they could kill brain and liver cells, but they don't accumulate in body fat, the body would try to excrete them as quickly as possible. The lithium and/or sodium they use for the reactions don't accumulate in body fat, they're only dangerous in that they explode or burn in contact with air/water, how could the body assimilate something like that into body fat? So what exactly is the Purif Rundown helping people
sweat out? Can you name one thing?

34 months ago: The purification program is working and get people in a better condition so it should be used.
Chef Xenu
Chef Xenu
Columbus, OH
34 months ago: FrankG:

Please define "better condition."
34 months ago: The tribune article mentioned the the L. Ron Hubbard detoxification was a "medical detoxification procedure". It is not medical and Hubbard had crazy ideas about how the body works. He believed that large doses of nicain "turned on radiatio" like it was still present in the body, and "ran it out" meaning that it now left the body. Hard to make any sense of much of what he said.
Niacin causes cells to release histamine. THe more you take it the less histamine there is so over time you have to keep increasing the dosage to get the histamine reaction. Hubbard thought the radiation was leaving the body and thats why the effects of niacin kept going down.
Of course if you wait a few weeks for the histamine to accumulate in the cells again then the niacin produces flushing again. According to Hubbards theory you must have just re-accumulated a whole bunch of more radiation exposure. Hubbards powers of observation and thought and understanding is that low "on the scale".

This detox program last year (2007 filing) recieved $149,283, used $84,161. Of that $84,161, $59,515 went to scientology to pay for the books and permision to use this method.
What a scam. Knowledge is free. Scientology isn't.
34 months ago: You'll find Scientology books available in many libraries, particularly in large cities. And not just in the USA, but in many languages, in many countries. The detox, however, must be delivered with some care for the reasons you state, and for other reasons, also. And care, when delivered to many, isn't free. But you've not mentioned results. And results is what people want. Ask the people who have done it. Do they have more energy? Do they feel better, are they more active, are they doing more with less effort afterward? :)
34 months ago: Toxic vitamins that don't kill anyone; excessive stays in saunas that don't make people sick; what's this world coming to when you can't even count on dangerous stuff to be dangerous. And then people have the gall to think that they feel better. Bah, you just can't trust people to understand and agree with science and feel bad when they sure ought to.
Chef Xenu
Chef Xenu
Columbus, OH
34 months ago: Actually, I think people are more likely to get sick from vitamins toxicity and more likely to die from the saunas, at least judging strictly from the news reports and statistics I've manage to track down.
34 months ago: I think the main problems the police will have other than lack of real scientific study backing this is that scientology is a criminal organization that has been and still is run by criminal elements of society. You have human trafficking, violation of human and civil rights, tax evasion and other Really Bad Stuff (TM) going on inside. I mean if the cops were knowingly buying pizza for the officers from a place that was a mob front, people would be up in arms. This is the same thing. Only I don't think the cops are in the know, yet. But they will be soon enough, dox are on the way to people in the right places.
bob dobbs
bob dobbs
Geneseo, NY
34 months ago: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purification_Rundown
[quote]
Adverse Outcomes
Paride Ella and Giuseppe Tomba, clients of Narconon in Taceno, Italy, died in 1995 during the vitamin phase of the program, suffering kidney problems and a heart attack respectively.[40]
In 1996, journalist Mark Ebner described the case of a woman who had suffered heatstroke and anemia while on the program.
One day, she was found blue-lipped on the waiting room floor, hemorrhaging. Instead of taking her blood pressure or calling an ambulance or even a doctor, they explained away her bleeding as "restimulation" from radiation she had absorbed from ultrasound testing she'd had years before.[13]
In 1997, two emergency room doctors reported treating a 45-year-old man who had participated in the Rundown.[7] Previously healthy, he had developed tremors while on the program, for which the Church of Scientology recommended further Purification as treatment. Put back in the sauna, he developed seizures and was taken to hospital in an incoherent state. He was diagnosed with severe hyponatremia but three days of treatment returned him to normal. In a similar case, the wife of a Medina, Ohio dentist required hospitalisation after developing hallucinations and other bizarre symptoms during Purification.[12] In 2004, a former participant in the UK told reporters that Purification had gravely worsened his physical condition, and that he had been denied medical treatment.[41]

A 25-year-old man in Portland, Oregon died from liver failure having taken the Purif. His parents sued the Church of Scientology and the case was settled out of court.[12] Scientology officials blamed the death on prior medical problems.[42]
[/quote]
But Phazeless, what about this wikipedia article on Scientology Detox? It mentions several deaths, and the last paragraph mentions Scientology making an out-of-court settlement with the victim's parents, that sounds like an admission of liability in some way.


34 months ago: What? What? Thousands of people through this Purification thing and all we got so far is half a dozen adverse reaction reports. I think my favorite baby aspirin is more dangerous. And what's up with the time? All these reports are from ten years ago. Did this Purification thing get fixed up even better? Here I thought I'd found some hot rant. What else they got on this site?
xenubarb
xenubarb
San Diego, CA
34 months ago: "Thousands?"

Do you have any evidence to back that up?
bob dobbs
bob dobbs
Geneseo, NY
34 months ago: Phazeless, are you a Scientologist? I did'nt think you took guys took aspirin.

Well first you said that noone died, then it appears some people have. So now thousands of people have done it and only a few died, but you "think" that baby aspirin is more dangerous? People are more informed these days, that Scientology obfuscation and vagueness, along with the marketing hype, will never convince the wogs.
34 months ago: Ya, whats a few deaths. I mean, they were druggies anyways. Who cares about druggies, they don't have familys. Meh kill one, shuffle a couple hundred through, big difference. As long as revenue is pumping through then buisness is good.
34 months ago: A number of critics sing the same song, again and again. Oh hum. In actuality, detox has tremendously improved many people's lives. My advise? In a word, get used to it.

If you have a person who has walked the ground, you listen to the person who has done it. It is new, you don't go to some university professor who tells you that it can't be done. You go to the person who has done it and ask him what happened. People find it helpful, they tell other people who do it and they find it helpful. Critics snicker up their sleeves, knowing people can't.
34 months ago: You know, Xenuluvr, you are miserably uninformed and persist in being uniformed in favor of using slappy phrases. It it doesn't fit the actual reality and it sounds plain dumb. I'm happy with me and that's all really I need, same with everyone. But if your happiness depends on representing complex actions in delusional ways, well, the internet is a big place. But clinging to invectives like "slave labor", "cult", "slapped around", etc. is plain dumb.
33 months ago: Terryeo, you're plain dumb.

You believe in a theology that called "scientology" that doesn't use the scientific method and was made up by a hypocritical science-fiction writer who writes about an alien dictator who lived 75 million years ago who dropped nukes into volcanos.

It doesn't get much dumber than that.
writer409
writer409
Los Angeles, CA
30 months ago: Well the Purification Program itself is amazing. I am not a Scientologist by any means. However, I have actually done the program about 8 or 9 times. I did it for depression and to detox px drugs...toxins etc. Put all the thoughts about what people say about Scientology aside and take the program for what it is. If one actually does it they will see the that there are absolutely amazing results from this. There can be reactions and so forth..but if you learn and read how the program works, that is normal...the body is pushing out the toxins...whatever is in there will show up in side effects as it leaves. Every time I do it I feel and look amazing. People say "wow, you look 8 yrs younger...what are you doing?" It centers your mind like nothing else and your skin becomes clear...flawless and has a radiant glow. It's a brilliant program.

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