Offbeat

Rant

Concerning Rantrave and Jews Becoming Christian

Posted 25 months ago|28 comments|758 views
Written by
Rudi Stettner
 Moderator
In the last few weeks, I have been writing five articles a day for Indyposted.com. It has represented an opportunity to actually write professionally. Indyposted has a policy of claiming exclusive rights to all articles posted on their site. It is as much for my good as for theirs. I have no problem with it. Writing for them looks like a major step to writing professionally and deriving my entire income from it. I write about 35 articles a week for them.

I had been writing on rantrave.com and crossposting from rudistettner.com and from magdeburgerjoe.com. During the last few weeks, my contributions have dropped off. This post will be the last one on rantrave.com for a long time, for reasons that I shall soon explain.

I am an orthodox Jew. I am also far from literate in Jewish subjects. I try to increase my knowledge and my observance from day to day.

A recent post on rantrave.com attracted over 50 comments. I did not see it, because I had been feverishly busy with writing and with personal matters, to the tune of almost 80 hours a week. The post dealt with Jews converting to Christianity, which it advocated with links to missionary videos. A lone dissenter, Markbyrn, advocated against converting to Christianity, and cited Jews For Judaism for an erudite rebuttal to Christians who want to convert Jews.

Late in the comment string the author asked me "Rudi,Any comment my brother?"


I must be frank. The thought of Jews converting to Christianity is as repugnant to me as suicide bombers in Israel targeting Jews. One attacks the body. The other targets the soul. There are those who would tolerate missionising as the price of political support for the state of Israel. The ancient prophets condemned the idea of relying on political alliances for national security. They advocated relying on G-d alone. I believe that in our time that this applies to turning a blind eye to missionaries converting Jews.

I support religious freedom for persecuted Christians because it is the right thing to do. I have written more articles on this subject than anyone else on rantrave.com. I also work with religious Christians on matters of common opinion such as fighting abortion and supporting government money to private schools.

A cardinal rule I follow in working with Christians is not to disparage their faith. I believe that their religion is man made. They believe my faith is false or incomplete. No one is kidding anyone. We work together and put our differences to the side.

But if you advocate the conversion of Jews to Christianity and then ask" Rudi,Any comment my brother? don't expect me to smile and act like we are talking about the best way to grill a steak. We are both talking about the difference between what is true and what is false.

I looked at the comment string. One guy who I once counted as a friend said "Sorry to bust your bubble OOTB. Christians are just another outside tribe to rule economically."

It hurt to read that. There are plenty of Jews who live close to or below the poverty line who would love to have the keys to the bank. The man from Cypress makes me feel right at home. We have people like that here in Brooklyn hawking Farrakhan's "Final Call" newspaper. Although it hurt to read that comment, at least it opened my eyes. The man from Cypress is at least honest. I wouldn't want to kick back and have a beer with him, but at least he says what he feels. That's better than being all warm and fuzzy and trying to convert ignorant Jews to Christianity.

I do not want to inadvertently help missionaries targeting Jews by adding to a comment string and keeping missionary propaganda on the front page for longer. Let those who advocate apostasy keep each other company.

Additionally, in every faith are the more and the less educated. I am less educated. I do not want to hand missionaries a victory by waging an inept defense of Judaism. This is a serious issue for me with high stakes. Aiding a Christian missionary in converting Jews (G-d forbid) would be as bad as shedding blood.

I will not be drawn into religious debates when I am putting in almost 80 hours a week on secular news articles. It would be like an 8th grade biology student doing brain surgery in a McDonald's rest room. The task is vitally important. It must be done properly. I share with my adversaries a belief in the hereafter. I 'm sure they know where I am coming from.

I will be taking a vacation from rantrave.com until further notice. I am resigning as an administrator although I will leave my articles up. I will remain an inactive member. recognising the legal right of missionaries to ply their trade does not mean that I must condone or aid them. If I am no longer posting on rantrave.com, my silence will not be construed as assent. A long hiatus is in order. I am grateful to rantrave and wish its owners success. I must say that I have learned some things about certain Quarters of the Christian right that perhaps I was trying to ignore. But I have always believed that getting bad news is always in reality good news, because it is an opportunity to deal with the truth. So thank you, Huey and Cypress. I know now where I stand.


http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/


http://www.jesuscult.com/Luther_Anti-Sem...


http://www.nobeliefs.com/luther.htm

EMAIL|FLAG THIS POST
COMMENTS
25 months ago: Tolerance goes both ways. I'm sorry you feel that way and I was not looking to offend anyone.

When I cal a person my brother or my sister I am being sincere. We are ALL brothers and sisters on this earth in the flesh whether we worship the same way or not. We may see things differently, but so what? That does not change the relationship.

Rudi - You may see a person converting from Judaism to Christianity as a traitor. However I don't see a Christian converting to Judaism as that, but I do see it as a mistake in judgement. But I also believe that is their prerogative and their freedom of choice.

I would never equate them to being a religious terrorist even if they were speaking to other Christians (or proselytizing) about their conversion.

Everyone has to make their own choices.

No one should see themselves as being above being proselytized by anyone at anytime about anything. It happens all the time anyway via personal contact, the media, and a million other ways. One cannot be so insecure in their beliefs that they run away from those who see things differently.

Mark Bryn and I go toe to toe all the time. I don't know Mark personally and he has said some pretty gosh awful things about God and the Bible, yet we dialogue. I believe we have a mutual respect even though we are light years apart at times and agree at other times.

That being said, I am a person who believes we should all share with each other. Life's experiences are too important to waste. If we quit sharing too soon we may short change someone who may have benefited from what we have to say. None of us has all the answers, but we should at least look for them and share when we believe we have found them.


markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
25 months ago: Rudi, Although I'll follow your IndyPosted articles through an RSS feed, I'm sorry to see your active departure from Rant Rave as you tend to produce thought provoking articles and this last one is no less thoughtful. That said, you might be surprised to find that I tend to agree with Huey's response.

I see RantRave as a unique forum that allows people with widely disparate social, political, and religious backgrounds to come together and be passionate in not only offering up their viewpoints but being forced to consider and respond to opposite or alternative points of view. It's like going to the gym and working out except this is virtual mental gym where you get to work out the gray matter between your ears.

It's a beautiful thing to see all the cards all get laid on the table but of course not all the cards are pretty to look at and some are downright ugly (e.g. the incendiary comment about Christians being just another tribe to be ruled economically) but in the end, you know where everybody is coming from and as Huey noted, at least we are dialoguing.

The alternative is imposed or self-imposed censorship and withdrawing to our respective ghettos (both physical and virtual) where people can grow increasingly polarized and hostile to the point where the specter of violence against faceless ideological enemies that you refuse to 'dialogue with' is dramatically increased. Ergo, you said "Aiding a Christian missionary in converting Jews (G-d forbid) would be as bad as shedding blood." Equating the selling of one's religion to violence and murder is not only gross hyperbole but makes a violence a credible moral response to those who proselytize.

...I will remain an inactive member. recognizing the legal right of missionaries to ply their trade does not mean that I must condone or aid them...

Actually by withdrawing, you are are condoning their activities in the sense that you're choosing to disregard or ignore them, and history has taught us that such a tactic is perilous.
25 months ago: Rudi:

It never occurred to my simple mind that a Christian and a Jew were opposing forces.

Whether Jews like it or not, I understand Christians and Jews worship the same G-d. No?

We think you are mistaken about Jesus, but is that disparaging?

If it is, oooops. I apologize.


TheLegendTomWing
TheLegendTomWing
 Administrator
Philadelphia, PA
25 months ago: So sorry to see you go Rudi. Your articles are fascinating and they are not usually topics I hear about. I will most certainly figure out that RSS thing mark was talking about.

There have been many fallen from RantRave, you were among my favorites. You, brought an interesting perspective to the table.

On a side note, i am disgusted to see what people have said about Judaism. I was raised Roman Catholic, yet my best friend is Jewish. Guess what, we just don't talk about it in a disparaging way. It's been this way for almost six years now, and we're no worse for the wear.

My point is, congratulations on moving up in the world, no one can fault you for that. G-d knows it's the American dream, work hard and prosper (80 hours a week sure sounds hard to me!). Although I am sorry to see you go, I can take comfort in knowing your message is still heard, albeit, a different audience.

Good luck and G-d Bless.
Siempre Solo
Siempre Solo
Auburn, NY
25 months ago: Why is anybody surprised that Rudi is pissed off? Didn't I make it amply clear in my comments that Jews don't believe in blood atonement anymore? For the umpteenth time: The religion of the Jews has had to evolve away from the need of blood atonement. If it had not, it would have ceased to exist because of Christian era Roman persecution.

What is more insulting though for Jews is the idea that G-d would forgive the sins of humanity in bulk by accepting a human sacrifice. That is what Jesus is to Jews, a human! That is putting the religion of Abraham on par with the heathen Ammonites around them that killed their babies and sacrificed them to Molech.

The Christian religion has evolved too. We don't see Jesus as the human sacrifice that he really is. When we celebrate the last supper in taking in the bread and wine we seldom think about Jesus words to "eat my flesh" and "drink my blood" as cannibalism and vampirism. The religion of the Christian Right has been changing and evolving for two millennium. The vast majority of which that it has seen Jews as the chief source of Christianities problems. Just recently in the last few decades Evangelicals have re interpreted traditional Christian views to include Jews in a revised adventist (not SDA) view that sees Jews as having to set up the third temple in Israel in order for the antichrist to have to sit on the "throne of G-d" as if he were the Most High. This is why The Evangelicals are so adamant about evangelizing Jews who their parents and grandparents wanted to exterminate.

It would be lunacy for any Jew that knows the history between Christians and Jews to want to convert to Christianity. You don't see many willing Muslim converts from the Jewish sector for the same reason. Those that convert to a Christian sect do so for personal reasons that sit outside their Jewish heritage. The Jews in Huey's video knew this. They adamantly denied any connection to Christianity. Why do you think this is? They faced constant rejection. Why do you think this is? Jews and Christians don't share a Judeo-Christian ethic. That term is an evangelic concoction. If Christians really loved Jews they would start to show it by not being so blatantly anti-Semitic. If we believe in G-d's power to forgive sin then it should not surprise us that G-d is capable of doing it.

Bottom line Jews have a lot of reason for not liking the Christian religion. Don't be surprised if they aren't afraid to let us know it when we tell them they need to accept Jesus or they will burn in hell forever.

BTW: As a service to those who didn't read my previous coments on this matter. I will repost them here in there entirety!

We tend to think of Christianity as a fixed institution but it is not. It has changed and morphed gradually till it became the gentile sects we know of today and even as we speak it continues to change. Jewish Christianity ceased to be a sect of Judaism after, 324 C.E. The counsel of Nicaea brought about by Constantine that stomped out nearly 500 different sects of Christianity and made official only one type and that is the one that was approved by Rome that we can read of in the Apostles Creed.
Jewish Christian sects were especially persecuted as enemies of the Roman state and forced to give up Jewish practices such as resting on the 7th day and forced to work on that day and made to rest instead on the first. Eventually as did Judaism in general at that time they were forced to either assimilate or so greatly morph that what is around today does not resemble in one bit what was around back then. Make no mistake about it, the religion of the Jews today is not the religion of the Jews 2,000 years ago and so it would make sense that Jews today would not believe in an atoning messiah as Christians today do (that is the basis of our religion), that instead they are looking for a leader that will restore Israel.
Jews have not had a blood atonement system in
25 months ago: Er......not in my neck of the woods
Siempre Solo
Siempre Solo
Auburn, NY
25 months ago: continued

... place to atone for sins in 2000 years, their religion changed at the destruction of the second temple, just as ours did as well. I don't know if that bridge that got burned so many centuries back could ever be restored. The Jesus of Christianity cannot heal the divided Jewish Community or restore their land and temple, not the way they want to anyway. For Jews to backtrack 2000 years and accept the Galilean Carpenter as their blood atonement they would need a radical miracle here today. Such as the purging of the holy land from non Jewish influence. They would need the restitution of the ark of the covenant and the ever burning lamps in the holy temple. There would literally have to be one miracle after another after another that would definitively show the Jewish people that G-d is still in their midst. Short of that Jesus is a Christian teaching and no Jew that still hopes for Zion would ever embrace such a foreign concept.
To do so radically changes the ideology of what is Zion and why hope for it.

My faith tells me Jesus is the atonement for my sins. That faith is based on 2000 year old temple atonement based teachings. The Jewish Nation, The Jewish Communities around the world and Jewish individuals have had no blood atonement for 2000 years. Their religion has morphed away from that. This is my point. Their religion is about Zion. Zion represents deliverance and redemption to a Jew not Jesus. Ask any Jew who Isaiah 53 is referring too and they will tell you it is the state of Israel. For a Jew to accept Jesus he has to reject Zion because Zion is redemption for the suffering Jew and a Jew can't reject his birthright which is Zion without rejecting his birthright of being a Jew. Face it guys, Jesus being the messiah is a concept that has not been Jewish in over 1500 years. Ask Rudi and I'm sure he will agree

I'm not saying who is or isn't a Jew. I'm telling you from the point of view of more than one Jew that I've met and known what they feel about Jesus and How it relates to Judaism. Judaism doesn't see the Christian Christos as their deliverer. Being redeemed to them has nothing to do with sin. Sin is forgiven by G-d when a Jew repents. According to their modern religion blood atonement has nothing to do with it. This is what I've been trying to tell you. The Jewish religion today is not the same one of 2000 years ago, that understood the need for a blood atonement. The Jewish religion today ties redemption with that of the physical state of the Jewish people not with sin or righteousness.

http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/questions-...

That link is a perfect example of the point I'm trying to make. The Jewish Religion today doesn't have need for a blood atonement. They are looking for a physical deliverer.

Ancient Israel was taught through the covenantal atonement they performed regularly that humans are sinners that sin is what separates us from G-d. That he who sins must pay for his sin with his own blood. That G-d in his justice could accept no less. That G-d is also merciful. That in his mercy he has provided an exception and that is a substitutionary atonement. That the substitution must be perfect and flawless, no less than from G-d himself. Abraham told Isaac "G-d will provide for himself a sacrifice." He did! None of this is Christian in origin. It can be found all over The Law, The Prophets and the writings. But as I said, Jews don't, believe in this anymore. They're religion has changed. Just like in the video those Jews were ostracized for believing in Yeshua as the atoning Messiah, I have known Jewish people who upon accepting Jesus as their atonement have been literally disowned by the
25 months ago: By the way, what does a moderater do anyway?
TheLegendTomWing
TheLegendTomWing
 Administrator
Philadelphia, PA
25 months ago: Not to get off-topic, a moderator reviews posts for Google News, reviews flags, etc.
Siempre Solo
Siempre Solo
Auburn, NY
25 months ago: continued

by their family and their community. It is not always the case but there are very few exceptions. As for Mark, don't pay him any mind he wants to argue because he is not convinced himself of the nonsense he writes.

Huey is right Mark! If you believe in G-d and you beleieve the Bible then you can't go making stuff up, if on the other hand you don't believe in G-d or the Bible then anything goes. It is very hard to look at over 3000 years of blood atonement in scripture and not believe that it is important.

So that's all you got out of what I wrote? Or is that all you could argue with?

You're funny Mark! If G-d is the author of all life than everything is fair game as an object lesson including less favorable human taboo's such as blood and animal sacrifice. These especially have a way of getting peoples attention because we can't grow new animals and blood escaping from the body quickly leads to death, much the same way that a rebellious human defying the boundaries that G-d has for him also leads to death. From a purely humanistic point of view I don't blame someone for missing that point but you ole buddy are a baptized bored SDA looking for some intellectual challenge among us heathens.
____________________________________________________________________

25 months ago: Is it a terrible sin for someone to change religion from the one true religion to one of the other religions? Is this like murder?
Gregoire
Gregoire
25 months ago: Don't be dismayed...Yeshua is as disdained by religious christians as he is by religious jews...
25 months ago: Rudi, Drop in and say hi once in a while, we are all sad to see you go but glad you are moving up in the literary world and hope that it raises your tax bracket and eases your workload. As for all the hoopla over religion, to each his own.

I too will be out of touch for a while, not because I'm making any money at something else (or even this), I just need to spend more time working outside while the weather's warm and my body is still functioning. I do have a rant to write, just haven't done it yet, if you love Amtrack and the TSA you won't like it.
25 months ago: Whether you believe it or not Rudie, I wish you the best.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
25 months ago: I feel indirectly responsible here, because if not for my musings, the comment Rudi referred to would not have been made. I knew it was a can of worms, and there they go, wriggling all over the place.

But then on the other hand, Rudi, I never felt like like you would be the one playing the persecution card. I understand you have a lot on your plate right now, and may be frazzled and out of sorts. But you are the Jewish representative here. You just take what you learn and run with it.

Not to be callous or anything, just being truthful, as I do admire your usually quiet self confidence. The statement you made above, albeit probably in anger:
The thought of Jews converting to Christianity is as repugnant to me as suicide bombers in Israel targeting Jews.

is telling. Your religious tolerance is limited. To what, in comparison with Jews? And in my humble opinion, is akin to the other remarks made in other posts.

May God bless you in all you do.
25 months ago: Rudi's already gone.
25 months ago: "Your religious tolerance is limited."

That is a gross understatement. He sure fooled me.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
25 months ago: Well, I just have some questions. I understand he's only one man, and does not represent Judaism as a whole, because just as Christianity is represented by thousands of factions, apparently so is Judaism.

But my first question would be, How do you feel about a gentile converting to Judaism? Would said gentile then be rewarded with all the favors given to faithful Jews?

25 months ago: I can't and won't judge anyone. That is God's job.

In my opinion if a Jewish person who has apparently received Christ as Messiah and then rejects Him, I question the conversion in the first place.

But I will tell you this, Orthodox Judaism is probably the only other "religion" I would seriously consider if I were not a follower of Jesus.
25 months ago: "How do you feel about a gentile converting to Judaism? Would said gentile then be rewarded with all the favors given to faithful Jews?"

I don't know for sure Rudi's answer to that question, but I would bet he has not seriously thought about the eternal ramifications of that. Unfortunately he did not stick around long enough for us to find out.
Gregoire
Gregoire
24 months ago: As an heir of life through Jesus/Yeshua...the promise of the ages, the one of whom the prophets spoke...there is only one "God given" religion.
The ordinances and instructions given by God to Moses until such a time as faith in Messiah was revealed, and all sin atoned for.
As those who are now made alive in the spirit, not after the form and shadows of the real and true, but able to enter the eternal tabernacle (Christ) where man and God meet...let us rejoice unashamedly of what the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob has done for us, if by any means, we may provoke to envy our brothers "after the flesh".
All I can hope is that Rudi might see, as I might see, the depths and breadth and width of the God of Abraham.
Siempre Solo
Siempre Solo
Auburn, NY
24 months ago: That sounds great to someone who thinks they know what you are talking about, to everybody else it sounds pompous and presumptuous, to these you are not provoking them to envy, you are making them see even clearer why it is such a tragedy for a Jew to convert to Christianity.
Gregoire
Gregoire
24 months ago: There is always and only one thing the truth never requires...an apology.
Gregoire
Gregoire
24 months ago: I have also learned this....sometimes getting very mad is a prelude to being made very glad.
24 months ago: "My people have committed two sins: They have forsaken me, the spring of living water, and have dug their own cisterns, broken cisterns that cannot hold water." [Jeremiah 2:9-13]

If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land. [2 Chronicles 7:14]

markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
24 months ago: ...will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin...

Ironic that you quoted that considering that forgiveness of sin here is not predicated on pulling out a goat or a human being and making either bleed to death. To think that a self-existent intelligent creator of the universe would require such is the pure anthropomorphism of God - not surprising since holy writs for any religion are written solely by human beings.
24 months ago: Hello.
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
Content Removed by markbyrn
13 months ago: Rudi? Stand up a fight. I'll buy you a beer anytime.

I looked at the comment string. One guy who I once counted as a friend said "Sorry to bust your bubble OOTB. Christians are just another outside tribe to rule economically."

It hurt to read that. There are plenty of Jews who live close to or below the poverty line who would love to have the keys to the bank. The man from Cypress makes me feel right at home. We have people like that here in Brooklyn hawking Farrakhan's "Final Call" newspaper. Although it hurt to read that comment, at least it opened my eyes. The man from Cypress is at least honest. I wouldn't want to kick back and have a beer with him, but at least he says what he feels. That's better than being all warm and fuzzy and trying to convert ignorant Jews to Christianity.

Post a Comment
Sign in or sign up to post a comment.