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Rant

China Cracking Down on Dissidents

Posted 15 months ago|28 comments|793 views
Written by
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
Oh well. So much for the facade. Many people have pointed to China as a model for the US, claiming that there is a new attitude of personal freedom in the Chinese government. Those claims have been proven false, yet once again.

Following calls on the internet for a so-called "Jasmine Revolution", modeled after the protests in other countries, China has once again been clamped down. Facebook, Twitter, and Boxun have been blocked, along with Weibo, the Chinese version of Twitter. Individual postings are being blocked, and all links referencing the democratic revolution are being returned with the message,"Unavailable due to restrictions".

Police are gathering en masse in likely spots for a demonstration, and in at least 13 cities, police showed up in full riot gear to quell any possible disruptions. Human rights groups said that at least 100 Chinese have been rounded up and detained in connection with internet posts calling for democracy in China.

So regardless of what we are being told by our own, China is still not that shining city on a hill, and will likely not be for a long, long time. The thing is, most Chinese don't even know about the revolutions in other countries, because the news is forbidden. For now, public scrutiny has kept the violence to a minimum. Many foreign journalists have also flocked to the protest sites. But if things come to head, they will be ejected by the Chinese government so they can get their house in order, in private.
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COMMENTS
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
15 months ago: ...Many people have pointed to China as a model for the US, claiming that there is a new attitude of personal freedom in the Chinese government..

The only person I can imagine doing that is Altruist.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
15 months ago: "While it's easy to focus on our differences of culture and perspective, let us never forget the values that our people share: a reverence for family; the belief that, with education and hard work and with sacrifice, the future is what we make it; and most of all, the desire to give our children a better life." Barack Obama to Hu Jintau

I didn't read anything in that statement about personal freedom or human rights.


"China has a different political system than we do," Obama said. "China is at a different stage of development than we are. We come from very different cultures with very different histories. But, as I've said before and I repeated to President Hu, we have some core views as Americans about the universality of certain rights--freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom of assembly--that we think are very important and that transcend cultures."

What? So is he for these freedoms, or against them?
Paper Tiger
Paper Tiger
England
15 months ago: Hi Mr Box.
I think when a huge country like China changes so much in so little time, this process should be managed very carefully. If Western culture hit China like a tidal wave there would be alot of damage. That tidal wave is on its way and their government are building an infrastructure to manage that wave so as to cause minimal damage.

This is the largest country, with the most people in the world, it's never been done before at this scale. If you were driving a massive lorry down a hill for the first time, would you touch your breaks every now and then to slow it down. Or would you?
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
15 months ago: PT
If you mean by "changes so much in so little time" the fact that, like the former Soviet Union, much of their historical identity has been destroyed in less than a century, then I have to agree.
But even so, with all the ruthlessness of socialist ideals, it took far longer for the CCP to whip the country into submission. The KMT held the communists off from complete domination for many years, and it wasn't until the 1960's that the "re-education" of the Chinese people could be successfully instituted.
The late 90's saw the introduction of economic pragmatism, and that in itself is merely a means to an end, namely, the spread of oppressive communism.
In my humble opinion.
Paper Tiger
Paper Tiger
England
15 months ago: Hi Box

Just to stray a little bit. When Russia openened it's gates, knocked down the wall, the west thought it was fantastic. Five years later many Russians were interviewed and they were dissapointed with the change, they wanted to go back to communism. Because under communism unemployment did not exist and everyone had a promise that if things got bad they were entitled to a prescribed standard of living. Taking that away caused a lot of stress to the communists who were institutionalized under the old regeme. I think China has used the Russian change plan to bring in any benefits, but the parts that failed have nothing to measure against any success as there, so far, not been any. So the Chinese are breaking new ground. If your government said, 'next week we are turning communist' there would be more than a few unhappy Americans to deal with. And the president who sanctioned the motion would by carried off to the crazy house.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
15 months ago: True, for some communism is the answer. It takes away the personal responsbility that goes with being free. If America turned communist tomorrow, it would be no different than it was in China, where 80 million people have been put to death for opposing the regime. They have learned to keep their mouths shut, else them and their entire families, sometimes entire villages, be rounded up and shot.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
15 months ago: "Using the pretext of "financial reform," the CCP regime targeted capitalists and business owners across China in a show of force and terror. Victims were often forced to pay arbitrary "taxes" that well exceeded total holdings. Tens of thousands were killed outright, with thousands more being driven to suicide by the trauma of arrests, social ostracism, brainwashing, and punishment."

http://faluninfo.net/topic/144/

See, we still remember the atrocities done in the name of the "people" . We will not allow it to happen here. We have our defenses in place, and are ready and willing, if need be.

markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
15 months ago: ...What? So is he for these freedoms, or against them?...

I think what you're referring to is what the Daily Beast blog called a rhetorical pirouette in an article, "When Bush caved to Egypt":

http://tinyurl.com/4gm9jcz

The fact is the US Presidents including Obama have played ball with dictators when it suits the national interest but of course that rightly leads to charges of duplicity and hypocrisy, esp. when we lecture one country about human rights while winking at the abuses of another country because they happen to be our oil spigot or debt holders.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
15 months ago: Um, how did you get anything "Bush" out of what I was referring to? I was referring to O-baa-ma, as he was bleating about the fine job China has done in the human rights department, the infrastructure department, and the education department.

While other Presidents have "played ball" with despotic governments, I am having a hard time remembering a President who suggested we should emulate them. Maybe you can help me out in that regard.

PS, I knew Al wouldn't touch this one with a ten foot pole.
15 months ago: My little sister is a Chinese foreign relations specialist -- 20 years back and forth right after college, married a Beijing city boy, and now is trying to help out the US gub'mint how to use chop sticks. She has a Hvd. pedigree that makes me sniffle.

OMG we are stoopid she says!

She basically said the Chinese are cloning America 24/7/365, and they will consume us...yes the US.

Her husband has little good to say about any of this. More krap is more chit, wise guy he is...That is more FED, more monetary policy, more posing, more T-bills, more dues, more this, more that...It just keeps on going, and it's now their policy in China too...on and on, like the dang battery-bunny, he says.

What happens when the bunny runs out?


15 months ago: Hvd. pedigree that makes me sniffle....

and her job is to teach us how to use chop sticks?

Wow. Nice pedigree.
15 months ago: What I meant by "chopsticks" was that the US gub'mint is sorely lacking in any intelligence or knowledge they need to effectively compete with the Chinese: apparently, the Chinese are teaching all their kids English, they are sending their very best and brightest to go get educated here in American Universities, and then go back to China. All the while all the smarties are here getting PhD.'s, they are doubling as low-grade spies to pay their college way -- they get full rides paid by the Chinese government to study at MIT.

Recall the low-grade Russian spies busted a year back? Comparatively, China has the walmart of low-grade information collection going on in America to make you blush. My sister tells me they have every square inch of our country, each school, city, many businesses, you name it, feeding them information. There really isn't anything they can't find out about she says, except the deep stuff in the federal government.

So the US is basically at the stage of still learning how to use chopsticks is what I meant.

15 months ago: China is smarter than most give them credit for... they will not be manipulated by a social network, or any other... they are resolved to be an honest dictatorship ...more than I can say for...

I don't agree, but these guys have been unashamedly ruthless from day one, and they will not change for players no matter how many stars or maple leafs.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
15 months ago: No they won't change their tactics. If the current atmosphere becomes too threatening in their long term plan, they'll draw the shades and take care of business. If they even feel the need to hide it anymore.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
15 months ago: And as the Chinese are cloning America in a few choice locations, for strictly economic reasons, are we, in return, to clone China here? I think maybe we should look behind the curtain.

http://onurwaytravel.com/welcome-to-my-n...
Across the road from my school lie the slums in ruins. All over China slums are being demolished to make way for high-rise apartment blocks. The sad reality is most locals don't get the choice to leave and are simply kicked out to be left homeless with many too poor to afford the government replacements. Homeless, these people are forced to move to slums elsewhere well out of sight of the middle class who choose to ignore the reality of the poverty right on their doorstep.

http://onurwaytravel.com/wp-content/uplo...
http://onurwaytravel.com/wp-content/uplo...
Paper Tiger
Paper Tiger
England
15 months ago: Hi Box
Re: Homeless, these people are forced to move to slums elsewhere well out of sight of the middle class who choose to ignore the reality of the poverty right on their doorstep.

Just as we do.
15 months ago: Are the dissidents also 99'ers or somehow on the unemployment roles? Are they anti-abortionists? Who are they? Like I'm going to buy "Students" after the 1960s and early 1970s in the U.S. Look what they brought us.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
15 months ago: I'm guessing they aren't pro-communist or pro-socialist. Looks like it's true, that the grass really does look greener on the other side. We have socalist countries trying to be democratic, democratic countries trying to be socialist, free people wanting a dictator, ....
15 months ago: Time out. Hold on just a second. I want to make sure I thought what I thought.

Is your article about China or a website?
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
15 months ago: Hmmm, I never really thought about it that way. No, actually the story was about China. But I can see where you're coming from. I haven't seen any censorship here, but with the shenanigans on Google, who knows what's next.
15 months ago: Box,

Congratulations on your Moderatoship!

I will look forward to my next spanking.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
15 months ago: I reckon my spanking days are at an end. This is the way it goes, kick 'em upstairs. I'll be primarily looking forward to killing the spam "watch free sports" posts.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
15 months ago: Oh, and thanks.
Altruist
Altruist
Eugene, OR
15 months ago: "Many people have pointed to China as a model for the US, claiming that there is a new attitude of personal freedom in the Chinese government.."

"The only person I can imagine doing that is Altruist. "

I visited China and like Obama admire some aspects of the Chinese PEOPLE. They really really love their kids. (since most have only one). They are very thrifty and save about 30% of what they make, they value education, They value families and care for their elderly, and want their kids to have a better world, they seem to be happy, and they work hard.

That said, I have never advocated the Chinese system of GOVERNMENT, and I continuously rant about how the Chinese system of free market capitalism has resulted in widespread pollution, environmental destruction and poisons everywhere. I also abhor the lack of freedoms and the control of the media.

Speaking to the people, I got the impression that the media control was very effective. I asked about the persecution of the Falun Gung and people were not aware or denied it. I also suspect hey have been very effective at limiting the knowledge of the unrest in the middle east which explains the small response to calls for demonstrations.

I think Obama was diplomatically saying the same thing. The people good, the government bad.

On the other hand their government has brought their people out of abject poverty and prevented the starvation of millions, and the people have seen more rapid and extended changes than probably any other civilization, so they are less inclined to protest than the Arabs in Africa and the Middle East who have much greater unemployment and little if any chance to improve their lot in life.

In the Middle East there are two kinds of autocratic control. One is through suppression as in most of the countries that are demonstrating, the other is through bribery as in Saudi Arabia.

In all of these countries, if the government made life better for the people, and gave them more freedom, there would be less dissent. The Chinese Government realizes that and is continuously (although slowly) improving the lives of the people.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
15 months ago: I don't think Obama was referring to the Chinese PEOPLE.
When he praised China for infrastructure development, was he praising the people? No, as you have pointed out repeatedly, government is responsible for infrastructure. Individuals and businesses have no means nor authority.
When he was praising them for their education improvements, was he referring to the people, or to the government mandates requiring Chinese children to put in longer days, and more days per year?
When he was praising their advances in the human rights department, was he referring to their NEW use of mobile execution vans, mobile abortion units, etc.?
Leah Healthnut
Leah Healthnut
San Jose, CA
15 months ago: Just as a precursor, I'll go ahead and let you know I've lived in China for a couple of years, studied Chinese culture and language, and done a masters thesis on some of the issues and differences between our culture and theirs. Also I'm married to a Chinese man (born and raised in China) and visit pretty often.

I've seen claims about these Chinese spies infiltrating our society before (a la the Russians), and although I don't doubt it is a strategy China is using, I doubt its effectiveness. For one thing, we don't hide the information they're looking for. If a Chinese person wants to come and observe our society and gather our "secrets," we usually don't have a big problem with it, outside of "state secrets." We're pretty generous with our opinions, our lifestyles and our culture: it's what makes us a melting pot. The Chinese people, I suspect, are having a difficult time figuring out how we do it: how do we allow our citizens so much freedom and live such a peaceful existence? No "secret" is going to be unearthed by spies, because their culture is so fundamentally different than our own.

The second thing is, although I don't know exactly what is going on with these alleged "spies" and the Chinese that are in our country, I do know that many Chinese people who come here fully intending to take advantage of our education system and then go back to "help" China never go back. They are educated from birth on the glories of China and its civilization, and I don't deny there is quite a bit for them to be proud of.

But Chinese people are not stupid. When they grow up hearing how wretched the American existence and how our system of government and market economy are inferior to their own, and then they experience both and see how people live outside of China, they realize they've been duped. Their loyalties change rather quickly. Most never return to China, and if they do, they do so under the protection of American citizenship. With the infiltration of American movies and television in China, most young people today can see with their own eyes how we live without leaving their homeland, and many are clamoring to get here to stay, by any means necessary.
Altruist
Altruist
Eugene, OR
15 months ago: OOTB look at the first comment you made:"While it's easy to focus on our differences of culture and perspective, let us never forget the values that our people share: a reverence for family; the belief that, with education and hard work and with sacrifice, the future is what we make it; and most of all, the desire to give our children a better life." Barack Obama to Hu Jintau

This comment was referring to the people.

The second paragraph of that comment: "China has a different political system than we do," Obama said. "China is at a different stage of development than we are. We come from very different cultures with very different histories. But, as I've said before and I repeated to President Hu, we have some core views as Americans about the universality of certain rights--freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom of assembly--that we think are very important and that transcend cultures."

This referred to the government. Obama was saying that we differ with the Chinese and that we value freedom.

China has few environmental labor or human rights regulations or laws. They don't have child labor laws. They don't have many pension plans. They don't have anything like Social Security. They don't have universal health care, or anything like Medicare. Because they don't have unions and the right of collective bargaining.

They have few inspectors testing if the food is safe or there are poisons in the products they make.

In fact China is exactly the type of country that Republicans would like to turn Americans into. They oppose anything that helps the poor, any regulations. And now they are destroying unions because the unions are the only things that can compete with the unlimited corporate funding that controls the Republicans.

In China they control the media and thus the opinion of the people. In the US the corporate conservatives have Fox and hate radio that is doing the same thing. The latest election showed that the control of media and unlimited corporate funds can convince the majority of people to allow 95% of the people to be harmed so the top 5% can get even richer.

I think Leah is right that once people get out in the real world and find the truth they will change. All over the Arab world people through the internet and cell phones are realizing that there is a better way. In China they control the internet.

In this country the Republicans are trying to destroy public broadcasting the only unbiased news source around. They have already destroyed our ability to have free elections with the Citizens United ruling that killed made most campaign financing, and now by eliminating unions the corporations will have total control over the people and America will become just like the government in China.

14 months ago: "In fact China is exactly the type of country that Republicans would like to turn Americans into."-altruist

ROFLMAO. Hahahahahahahahahahahaha.

Reagan admiring communism? Or was that Kennedy? Or was that Obamao?
Point being: No American admires communism. Neither party has the stomach for killing 30% of the population to impose their wisdom upon the survivors.
From either party or from both, it is repugnant.

But 'progressive' is a 1930's reference to the marxist man, evolving, progressing. Progressives are not Americans philosophically. They are elitist communists; certain that they are more equal than the others; certain the purges will not include them. And their 'Alinsky rules' include accusing the intended victims of the very tactics to be used against them. Twisting history and distorting truth is necessary for the progressives to undermine their intended victims

Well here's some truth: Mao killed 40 million people to quite dissent and to steal the land from the people. Stalin 45 million. That's the progress that comes to every 'progressive' nation. No respect for life, liberty, property, or inalienable rights.

Only those who hate America and traditional Western values could admire communism- The philosophies are directly opposed. Responsible empowered individuals (traditional America) vs sheeple beaten into submission (Progressive vision for America).

Which is why Americans have killed commies before and will do so again, foreign and domestic. Because communism is a vile and repugnant philosophy, forcing people to be slaves.

What Americans and Chinese and all people have in common: (a) They want to be free. (b)They hate thugs who use force to take a percentage of their work (profits, labor, payroll tax, income tax, personal property tax).

The Torries never understood that. They just called americans hicks, and uneducated locals, and rednecks. And the Torries were sent packing.

Now Obamao and Hu Jintau are both forcing people to plow for them. What America and China share is that our current governments do not respect life, liberty, property, or inalienable rights.

What the people share is that both people yearn to be free.
Sic Semper Tyrannis.


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