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Bible Verses on U.S. Military Gun Scopes

Posted 28 months ago|96 comments|2,420 views
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markbyrn
 Moderator
In what's sure to be a big hit in the Muslim world, it's being reported that our soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan are using rifle gun sights that are inscribed with New Testament Bible Verses by the manufacturer. The Bible verses are coded as pictured along with the stock number in the form of an abbreviation such as JN8:12 or 2COR4:6.

While it would be ironic if they had the "those who live by the sword, die by the sword" bible verse, the verses on the gun sights were more focused on Jesus:

'When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life. John 8:12'

'For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness, made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ. 2 Cor 4:6'

For those who live or have been to Southern California, there's a hamburger chain called In-N-Out that similarly places discreet bible verses on their food product wrapper and cups.

However, there is a slight difference between placing Bible verses on junk food wrappers and placing Bible verses on weapons, especially when the enemy will use it as propaganda to say that that America is using "Jesus guns" as part of a Christian crusade against Islam.
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COMMENTS
28 months ago: Hmmm...If I was a conspiracy theorist I would be commenting on the the implied "Army of God" thing...but I'm not...so I won't ;)
28 months ago: I'd be more concerned if they were able to read the verses while looking through the scopes finding a "religious kill".
Siempre Solo
Siempre Solo
Auburn, NY
28 months ago: The implied message is obvious: You better hope God gets you before we do! Who says the US Military doesn’t have a sense of humor?
28 months ago: Check out the flag on that guy's shoulder... It ain't the good "old glory". How does that work into the mix?
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
28 months ago: You don't see the US Soldier looking on intently? Maybe he's training an Iraqi on how to use the Jesus gun sight - wouldn't that be a hoot.

There's a follow-up article on TPM; they asked the Marine Corps about it and they said just became aware of the inscriptions:

http://tinyurl.com/ydcnewf
28 months ago: I support the owners of the company that makes the scopes right to have their beliefs. I do not support their right to force their beliefs upon our soldiers by placing Bible verses upon products contracted by the US Government for the use of those soldiers.

Do you have any idea what a stink is would cause if a manufacturer placed this reference on a product for use by the military: http://www.angelfire.com/realm2/wiccanmaiden0/wiccanlaw.html

The religious fanatics would go through the roof to have the products removed from the hands of those impressionable young troops. They would sue everyone in sight to get this off the military shelves because it is not Christian. It is perfectly harmless, but not a Bible quote.

Either a quotation or a reference to them is a danger to our troops because they will be used by the forces we are at war with to justify their despicable acts. If just being an American is enough to have your head cut off and other barbaric acts done to your life or lifeless body, then getting caught with a Bible verse on your weapon can be justification for this being a religious war. Christian against Islam, just like during the Crusades. Is that really what you people want? To return to the Middle Ages and the Crusades?
28 months ago: Mark, I agree that the burger joint and a military contractor are a world apart in what they can and can not do with regard to their product. One is purchased by personal choice, you don't like you don't buy it, the other is issued by our military to the troops, they don't get much choice in the matter and they can't refuse to use it without endangering themselves and their fellow soldeirs.

Let's get religion out of and off of our military's weapons. They should be functional, effective and affordable. Not a religious statement.
trish
trish
West Fork, AR
28 months ago: i think we 4 get what our country was founded on,and removing a little scripture code,is just making a mockery of the us,if other countries dont want our help based on our beleives,then we shouldnt b helping them,why should we change,the gospel is 2 go out & spread the good news,if they dont want 2 except it ,they dont have 2,its not in insult,its for our peace & faith!
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
28 months ago: Six,

No doubt if they had put 'Wicca' on the guns, the evangelicals would be flipping out and demanding that Obama be impeached.

But if you're going to inscribe a Bible verse on a weapon, let's not pretend we're trying to give them the love of Jesus when you're trying to shoot them stone cold dead. Go all out and put the right bible verse on it - that would be 1 Samuel 15:2-3.

"This is what the Lord Almighty says: I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys."

Now if that won't get you in the killing mood, I don't know will, and with that kind of 'godly' blessing, you can go hog wild and slaughter anything that moves, talks, cries, or poops in a diaper. Praise the Lord and pass the bullets!
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
28 months ago: ..the gospel is 2 go out & spread the good news..

Trish, even if that's true, do u really want the 'good news' inscribed on a weapon that's designed 2 kill? I doubt a bullet ridden corpse is particularly open to listening to the 'good news'.

Also Trish, I hate 2 be the bearer of bad news but the country was founded on the premise of freedom of religion and freedom from state religions that had persecuted the colonists back in the old world. Maybe in West Fork, everybody is 1 religion but in the country at large, we have a plurality of religious faiths and plenty of non-religious 2.

Your brand of evangelical Christianity is not the official religion of our military much less the official religion of our military weaponry.
trish
trish
West Fork, AR
28 months ago: even if my evangelical christianity isnt the official religion for the military &our weapons,our constition even states"in GOD we trust,and really if you want 2 go there about the scriptures being harm on a scope,then what is the money that we pay for the weapons,they say in GOD we trust ,i guess people like you that have a problem with anything wrote with GOD on it,should stick 2 your debit cards.
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
28 months ago: Trish, I guess you're right. According to the words of Jesus:

"But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you, and than kill them with my blessed Jesus gun (Luke 6:27-28.5)"
28 months ago: Trish, I support your right to be what ever religion you desire. I do not support placing Bible verses on the equipment that our military takes to war. Not because I feel there is anything wrong with the verses or even the Bible as a concept. I believe it contains a wealth of good information and ideas even if I do not believe in it as you do. What is the problem is that WE, as a Nation, do not wage war over religious ideology and to put Bible verses on our weapons and send them into a war zone full of enemy soldiers who do not believe in Christianity or even the Bible (except the parts do not contradict the Qur’an) is to invite disaster. Why would we want to give fuel to a fire we are trying to put out?

Are you in the military? Ever served? Have family, friends who are currently serving? I have and I do. I can not support anything that might jeopardize their safety needlessly and even if this has been going on for several years, that does not make it right nor does it justify the continued expense of adding those Bible references to the scopes or any other weapon or part of a weapon.

Yes I know that “in God” is on several documents and our money, neither of which I would change, but we aren’t sending our documents in to battle against religious Islamic fanatics carrying a banner declaring that their religion isn’t the same as ours, we are sending our sons and daughters who bleed and who can feel the pain of torture.

It might be different if our enemy was interested in something besides our total annihilation purely because we aren’t of their religion, but they have repeatedly expressed that that is their intention and that nothing but death will stop them from trying. I, for one, will be glad to help send them on their way.

28 months ago: As for any of you that are followers of the Qur’an and who believe that killing “infidels” for the sake of killing all who do not believe like you is wrong and that those who do are the true “sinners”, you are welcome in my home and my country. That goes for all religions. If you believe that you should live your life and respect others in the way they live theirs and not attempt to harm them because they do not believe as you do, you are a potential friend, we just haven’t met yet.
trish
trish
West Fork, AR
28 months ago: its funny you can quote so many scriptures,and out of love for my enemies i still remain grounded in what i beleive & iam not making a mockery out of others beleifs,only standing up for my own
trish
trish
West Fork, AR
28 months ago: my last comment was posted for mark,and sixholdens,my husband served 8yrs in the national guard,and have several relatives that also serve,and i agree we wouldnt want 2 make matters worse but someone did by pointing out that the scriptures were there,its not even visible from the outside,i think the arguements are more about unbeleivers getting offended of our religion,and this includes alot of americans
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
28 months ago: Trish, evangelicals often mock others religions just by saying their religion is the only true religion or falsely claiming their religion is the official religion of the US government.

And yes, I think it's a mockery of one's religion to put bible verses on weapons of war. It's also divisive and and spark sectarian violence.
THE RONBOT HUNTER
THE RONBOT HUNTER
28 months ago: Religion has always been used as a justification for murder and genocide or justification for racial killings.

There is no humanity in killing for the benefits and profits of/for the rich.

A killing is only justifiable in self-defense.

When is the killing of women and children justified?

Is it worth your soul to kill for the rich and religious nuts, that started all these wars?

The markings were there to admit to us,the inhumanity of the manufacturer.

Now you know that this people want you to kill for them.

WELCOME TO THE REAL REASONS FOR WAR.

THE RONBOT HUNTER
ALL RIGHTS RESERVED

markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
28 months ago: Added a youtube link to a Rachel Maddow clip on this subject.

To quote her statement to the evangelical Christian weapons manufacturer as they dismissed complainers as 'not Christian':

"You self-centered, self-righteous endangering the troops idiots. Congratulations, you just spawned a 1000 anti-American propaganda videos. Hope you're enjoying your war profits."
Broken
Broken
Eureka, CA
28 months ago: If they can have 72 virgins for killing our troops why can't we have a few scriptures on our service weapons? And will they step up to the plate and send all the weapons back and get rid of the ones with the sriptures and pay for replacements?
28 months ago: Broken, because they ARE fighting a religious war and we are not. You do not even want the USA to go to war to spread a religion. The first thing that will have to happen is we will have another civil war, it will be bloodier than the last one, millions will die, torture and other horrible acts will be rampant. NO ONE WILL BE UNTOUCHED BY IT. You think Rwanda and Darfur were bad, the lakes and rivers and streams and roads and sidewalks will run with blood, and it will take decades to bring it to a finish and the worst part is, it will probably be another country finishing it for us and we will be no more.

Thats why we don't need to spread some fanantics brand of religion via our weapons of war.
trish
trish
West Fork, AR
28 months ago: markbryn,rachel maddow stated her opinion as you have,that doesnt make this factual,that christians have put the scriptures on the scopes for a christian war,its a christian company and if the americans & military really have a problem with this ,i would like 2 see them send all the weapons back and pay for replacements,but chances are thats not going 2 happen,its not the muslims throwing a fit ,its americans that do not beleive in christinity and i think it makes americans look like idiots that we are becoming so separated because of religion,even christians dont have the same political beleifs that doesnt meen we shouldnt share the same goal for our country & the scriptures havnt hurt anybody before & if they do now it will b on the others that made a fuss of it,there shouldnt be so much separation in our country over religion.
28 months ago: Mark, how does Al miss it when it is the rant of the day? Something smells fishy. Nice picture grab AL.
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
28 months ago: Here's a comment from the Baptist Joint Committee on this topic:

"What good is it to have our civilian leadership traveling the world with the promise that America does not fight religious wars, when the military has our soldiers training some Afghans and Iraqis, and killing others, with guns that proclaim otherwise?

The disconnect is palpable. Our government does not and should not have a religious viewpoint; neither should the military. And while I can imagine such inscriptions could possibly give some Christian soldiers comfort, that's hardly an excuse. Apart from giving the inaccurate and harmful impression that the US military is engaged in a holy crusade of some kind, continuing this contract ignores and insults both non-Christian soldiers and those Christian soldiers who reject the invocation of Christ in acts of violence. And yet, the military's response indicates that is the plan going forward."

http://tinyurl.com/yeoy886

Seems quite a bit more sensible than justifying it by saying it's **** for tat over 72 virgins for killing our troops. Is there anybody that can offer a coherent rebuttal to the Baptist Joint Committee assuming you disagree with them?
28 months ago: I saw the report in our local paper and it is reportedly a Michigan Company...in Wixom to be exact...

Not sure how I feel about this but then again there are no atheists in a foxhole right?
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
28 months ago: ...but then again there are no atheists in a foxhole right...

A myth promoted by religious zealots - see:

http://www.maaf.info/expaif.html
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
28 months ago: JLK,

And the bible verses were rather sectarian - they were specific to Jesus and the Christian religion. If they were inscribed with something like "god is love", the quip about atheists could be half-way relevant.

I imagine if the gun sights had verses from Koran, the evangelical Rebiblicans would be having fits.
28 months ago: Personally don't get me wrong I would rather not have someone serving in the military active in combat being forced to think about religion as many see it leaving a guilty feeling about having to kill another human being.

I think they are suffering enough without having more guilt being handed to them on the very weapons they are using.

That comment about atheists and foxholes was just an off hand comment not meant to incite either side in any offensive manner.
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
28 months ago: JLK,

Do you think the devout Christian weapons manufacture is feeling guilty about all the people that are killed with their Jesus gun sights? Not likely, especially when they have a $660 million multi-year contract with the military.
28 months ago: I didn't mean the multi-million dollar company I was referring to those soldiers who might be struggling with their religious beliefs and the fact that they are doing something that goes against those beliefs.

Not all soldiers are so free wheeling about having to kill including some Christians, Muslims, etc...

Just because they joined the Armed Services doesn't mean killing doesn't make them feel guilty just look at many of the Vietnam Veterans, WWII and so on...
Altruist
Altruist
Eugene, OR
28 months ago: I apologize again for posting on the same subject and using the same image, (taken from the original story). I was lazy and wrote my post before reading the latest on R/R.

Most Muslims do not believe in killing. Al Queda and the Wahhabi Sunni sect that Osama Bin Laden came from, is a radical minority.

There are some Muslims that think that it is OK to kill non Muslims, but hardly any Muslims think that it is OK to kill other Muslims which is what Al Queda is now doing in Pakistan. The only way to really eradicate this radical branch of Islam is for the Imams within the religion to declare all killing haraam and declare a fatwah against that branch Islam.

"...whosoever killeth a human being... it shall be as if he had killed all mankind, and whoso saveth the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind..." Quran 5:32
"If a man kills a Believer intentionally, his recompense is Hell, to abide therein forever"
[Al Nisa'a 4:93]

Trish when you say that scriptures never harmed anyone before you miss the many different crusades that attacked the people from the middle east without provocation. The reaction to those attacks spawned Islam. These gun sights revive that resentment.
28 months ago: Al, are you speaking from a position of authority when stating,

"Most Muslims do not believe in killing. Al Queda and the Wahhabi Sunni sect that Osama Bin Laden came from, is a radical minority."

I'm guessing this will lead you into your next rant about devout Christians and their attachment to the K.K.K., or your non-partisan interpretation.
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
28 months ago: Altruist,

Even when Bush insincerely delivered his war propoganda speeches about Islam being good and we're not at war with Islam (just the radicals) speeches, his religious right backers would pop up in righteous indignation to correct him. For example:

"You Are Wrong Mr. Bush - It is a Religious War!"

http://tinyurl.com/y8ndtqq

"Army Lt. Gen. William Boykin who was quoted as saying that Muslims worship an idol, not a “real God.” Bush distanced himself from a great American when he said that Boykin “didn’t reflect my opinion.”

"Evidently, Mr. Bush does not know that Allah was the pagan moon god that was worshipped along with 359 other pagan gods in the Kaaba at Mecca."

"Are we Christians expected to waltz around the facts to make Muslims more comfortable with their 7th century desert religion?"

"It is time to stop pandering to all things Muslim and recognize that Islam is a Trojan Horse full of the enemy dedicated to making America an Islamic nation."

Even now, the Pentagon is defending these Jesus gun sights by saying it's just like 'in god we trust' on our money as though sectarian Christian evangelicalism's are the same thing. They could care less about how it's perceived by Muslims because many of the Pentagon high rollers are just like Boykin - as far as they've ever been concerned, we are at war with Islam.
28 months ago: All of you semi and devoted anti-muslim abuse doctrine spewers must have miss the link I posted showing those beloved by Allah beheading people. All the while they were foaming at the mouth spewing "God is Great" while being deaf to the humble plea of those about to loose there heads.

Yeah, right, a religion of peace. If it were then the majority of muslims would be posting these traitors of the religion along with the video along with their outrage.

All I hear from the American Muslims is we want to live in peace. How about they start attacking the beheadings and the extreimists from their own religion. They want respect?

Maybe they need to start fighting on the front line.
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
28 months ago: ...Maybe they need to start fighting on the front line...

Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan (b. 12 February 1987 in Neptune, New Jersey, d. 6 August 2007 in Baqouba, Iraq) was a Muslim-American U.S. Army Specialist who died in Operation Iraqi Freedom. He received a Bronze Star and a Purple Heart for his service. He is buried in Arlington National Cemetery.

According to the Gannett News Service, he was "spurred by the September 11 attacks on the World Trade Center wanted to show that not all Muslims were fanatics and that many, like him, were willing to lay their lives down for their country, America. He enlisted immediately after graduation and was sent to Iraq in July 2006." He was promoted posthumously to the rank of Corporal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kareem_Rashad_Sultan_Khan
28 months ago: In droves.
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
28 months ago: TCG,

How about acknowledging Khan's ultimate sacrifice before you move the bar? Here's a photo of his headstone at Arlington Cemetery - notice it has the Islamic symbol on it.

http://tinyurl.com/yeh3vuu

In seeing his headstone and despite his service to our country, I imagine many of the intolerant evanglical Christians here would say he's burning in Hell because he wasn't a Christian.

As far as "droves", the population ratio of Muslims in the USA is around .5% and depending on where you get the numbers, an estimated 5000 - 15000 serve in the military, roughly matching the ratio of military population to the overall USA population ratio.

Considering the intolerant louts of the religious right who frame the war as being against Islam, I doubt they would be joining in droves, but they do serve just as some Japanese Americans served during WWII even though their fellow Japanese Americans were locked up in concentration camps.
28 months ago: Mark;

Bring the dang fascist Muslims on!
28 months ago: Mark, the manufacturer is laughing all the way to the bank. Got rich and FORCED others to carry scriptures proclaiming the manufacturer’s religion to the world in defiance of the government of the US of A’s prohibition against supporting a state backed religion.

If I had my way, they would become instant paupers and still have to recall all items and remove the markings with a milling machine.
28 months ago: Mark, just so you know I respect anyone which pays the ultimate sacrifice for the U.S. Please re-read the post. The context of "front line" is directed to American civilian Muslims that want to hide in the shadows. If I were posting about the armed services I would have said in the trenches.
scotmanster
scotmanster
28 months ago: The lady commenter was rather annoying. It seems like she is trying to walk in the shoes of Keith Olbermann another lunatic. I guess that old saying is perfect here in describing if the shoe fits wear it. Either way who cares if a rifle scope has the imprint of a bible verse on it?
scotmanster
scotmanster
28 months ago: I guess what I am saying I think we have more important issues to worry about than a bible verse on a rifle scope. It is kinda of misnomer to me. Ludicrous at best to think we have time to worry about a petty nuisance like this.
28 months ago: scotmanster, those "petty nuisances" have caused wars that lasted for years and killed millions. Who knows what will set a terrorist off and cause him to kill instead of take prisoner.

There are examples of what you might consider a minor incident that resulted in total disaster for someone, even death. Do we really want to tempt fate?
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
28 months ago: It will be a minor nuisance to file them off like the New Zealand military is doing:

http://tvnz.co.nz/national-news/bibical-message-kiwi-soldiers-guns-3336762
scotmanster
scotmanster
28 months ago: I guess you should all take a close look at our country..In God We Trust is stamped on it. If you don't like what our country signifies then simply move to new zealand.

As for me thinking it is petty is just that some busy body can not stand for what it signifies and wants to change it fundamentally. They wrap themselves in being patriotic but refuse to acknowledge that God is the corner of our nation. They refuse to acknowledge in courtrooms when swear to tell the truth and nothing but the truth so help me God...has been apart of judicial system since its inception. That is calling a spade a spade.
scotmanster
scotmanster
28 months ago: So before you go casting the stones really think about what you are saying if you refuse to acknowledge God being apart of America then simply pack you bags and head for greener pastures. I have accepted this fact can you is the question?
28 months ago: "In God We Trust"? burn your U.S dollars. Right.
trish
trish
West Fork, AR
28 months ago: i beleive that no money & no scripturs on our rifles will ever make a difference of the muslims liking us,we can not change the way they feel and i think that american citizens need to stop blaming the christians for everything & be more focused of being a stronger nation,united because we are truly just making enemies with our kind.
28 months ago: Hello, Mark?
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
28 months ago: Two different animals - In God We Trust is a non-sectarian motto and doesn't endorse any particular religion. The "God" in the slogan can be the God of the Muslims, the God of the Christians, God of the Jews, etc. It's the concept of American Civic Religion where there's no theistic belief set is excluded.

BTW, In God We Trust didn't become our national motto until 1956 when the politicos were pandering to religious zealots and replaced the more inclusive E Pluribus Unum with the current motto and of course the same with the Pledge of Allegiance adding "under god."

At any rate, the company didn't put our national motto on the gun - they inscribed sectarian evangelical Christian verses cuz I guess Jesus is all about guns and they did so without the military's knowledge - according to the military.

Again, I'll refer you back to the Baptist Joint Committee statement above on why the Jesus inscriptions on the gun sights are a bad, and curiously, I didn't see any rebuttals on that from the defenders of this so called petty nuisance. If you really think it's a petty nuisance, you shouldn't have any issues with taking 30 seconds to file off the Jesus verses.
28 months ago: OK fair enough, I'll look at the installation of "In God We Trust" as a national "motto" in 1956.

When was the first inscription or printing of "In God We Trust" on an official government currency? Does it pre-date 1956 as your "motto" date in point? Could it have dated back a few more years? When exactly does the government accept a single GOD?
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
28 months ago: In God We Trust did indeed appear on coins before 1956 but it was the the 84th Congress that passed a joint resolution to replace the existing motto with "In God we Trust", and it was signed into law on 30 July 1956.

"In 1863, Chase asked the Director of the Mint, James Pollock to prepare suitable wording for a motto to be used on Union coins used during the Civil War. Pollock suggested "Our Trust Is In God," "Our God And Our Country," "God And Our Country," and "God Our Trust." Chase picked "In God We Trust" to be used on some of the government's coins. The phrase was a subtle reminder that the Union considered itself on God's side with respect to slavery."

Also, to quote Theodore Roosevelt on the subject:

"My own feeling in the matter is due to my very firm conviction that to put such a motto on coins, or to use it in any kindred manner, not only does no good but does positive harm, and is in effect irreverence, which comes dangerously close to sacrilege...It is a motto which it is indeed well to have inscribed on our great national monuments, in our temples of justice, in our legislative halls, and in building such as those at West Point and Annapolis -- in short, wherever it will tend to arouse and inspire a lofty emotion in those who look thereon. But it seems to me eminently unwise to cheapen such a motto by use on coins, just as it would be to cheapen it by use on postage stamps, or in advertisements."

http://www.religioustolerance.org/nat_mott.htm
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
28 months ago: But it seems that we've latched on to a red herring here. The gun sights have sectarian Christian verses and if our currency suddenly had "In Jesus we Trust" due to some religious bureaucrat simply deciding to do it, I wouldn't burn the currency but I'd blot it out before I spent it. We don't have a state religion or a state church in this country.

Now if the gun sights had the national motto, it would obviously be more inclusive but many Christians and others believe in pacifism on religious grounds and would find it abhorrent if the government ordered the motto on weapons. I doubt that even the most conservative administration would countenance such an idea.
28 months ago: Really 1863 on "Union" coins. By who?

"In 1863, Chase asked the Director of the Mint, James Pollock to prepare suitable wording for a motto to be used on Union coins used during the Civil War."

Who is "Chase"? Did he get another bail-out?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salmon_P._Chase
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
28 months ago: Treasury Secretary Salmon P. Chase

From the link I put in the previous post:

"Almost a century and a half ago, eleven Protestant denominations mounted a campaign to add references to God to the U.S. Constitution and other federal documents. Rev. M.R. Watkinson of Ridleyville PA was the first of many to write a letter to the Secretary of the Treasury Salmon P. Chase in 1861 to promote this concept."
28 months ago: I'm still waiting on proof that they had an inscription of any kind other than a registration. Can you offer a non-photoshopped link? Maybe an official site from the U.S. Government, or are ya'll just sturring up crap from someones wetdream? Maybe yours?
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
28 months ago: How about this article from the Marine Corps Times:

http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/2010/01/marine_biblical_optics_011909w/

Quotes:

Officials with Michigan-based optics maker Trijicon Inc. said Monday in news reports that their optics have been inscribed with references to Bible verses for years.

As part of our faith and our belief in service to our country, Trijicon has put scripture references on our products for more than two decades.

Marine officials said they are “aware of the issue and concerned with how this may be perceived.”

“The Marine Corps … does not use Trijicon’s markings for any purpose, including [the] purchase, tracking or management of systems,” said officials with Marine Corps Systems Command, based at Marine Corps Base Quantico, Va. “We will meet with the vendor to discuss future sight procurements.”
scotmanster
scotmanster
28 months ago: "Again, I'll refer you back to the Baptist Joint Committee statement above on why the Jesus inscriptions on the gun sights are a bad, and curiously, I didn't see any rebuttals on that from the defenders of this so called petty nuisance"

I did not get a chance to read that article your talking about.

My point is mark if you open your eyes long enough you will find God is everywhere across this nation. Whether it be from the ten commandments outside a court building,in the court rooms themselves you will find a bibles,on our currency, in our school when we say the pledge, oaths you take, inscriptions on government monuments and I am sure I could name a few dozen more instances. Whether you believe it or not that is upto you but the fact is God is the corner stone of the United States of America.
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
28 months ago: Scot,

Let me know what you think about the Baptist Joint Committee article and I hear you about God being everywhere - that's what I was referring to when I mentioned American Civic Religion.

For example, the politicos often say "God Bless America" and most accept that because it's not sectarian and doesn't invoke or favor a single religion as do the inscriptions on the gun sights.
trish
trish
West Fork, AR
28 months ago: go to trijion.com.when you read about what they beleive in it states."we beleive that america is great when ITS people are good.this goodness has been based on BIBLICAL standards throughout our history & we will strive to follow these morals"the militiary was aware &the site even shows what they buy from the company.you guys wouldnt care if the guns would say maaf,would you,the military apperently wants to go with people with better morals & values,i dont blame them.
scotmanster
scotmanster
28 months ago: Well if you think about it trish if a company like trijicon has rights like you or I do(and they do) then I don't see anyone any time soon stopping them from exercising their right to freedom of speech.
scotmanster
scotmanster
28 months ago: Mark just to make clear was not referring to anyone in this article as being a busy body. I think that title only lays claim to the person that first was appalled by the scripture on the scopes and reported it.
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
28 months ago: Scot,

Of course the company has the right to put whatever they want on their scopes but the government doesn't have to buy them or they can 'modify' them.
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
28 months ago: AFP Newswire: Muslim anger over US military 'Jesus' scopes

http://tinyurl.com/yj7rzz4

Quote:

"WASHINGTON — Muslim groups reacted angrily Wednesday after it emerged that the US military in Iraq and Afghanistan were using rifle sights inscribed with coded Biblical references.

The Muslim Public Affairs Council (MPAC) called on US Defense Secretary Robert Gates to immediately withdraw from combat use equipment found to have inscriptions of Biblical references."

and the statement from MPAC is at:

http://www.mpac.org/article.php?id=1008
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
28 months ago: From the UK Guardian and a quote from the Church of England

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jan/21/gunsights-military-code-biblical-reference

"But what is the Church's view? "It would be unfortunate if this practice by an arms manufacturer undermined the military effort in areas of the world where our forces are trying to bring long-term stability," says a Church of England spokesman. "People of all faiths and none are being killed and injured in these ­conflicts, on all sides, and any suggestion that this is being done in the name of the Bible would be deeply worrying to many ­Christians. The meaning of the Bible is to be found in reflective reading and prayer, not in sloganising and soundbites."
scotmanster
scotmanster
28 months ago: Funny how this all works here we are over their trying to help them and they are giving us **** about it. Ungrateful if you ask me. Is this not what we want to do over their is to inflame these terrorists so we can end this war all that quicker?
scotmanster
scotmanster
28 months ago: If that is what they want is a holy war then why not be bold about it and make it into one? Like I said it will inflame the enemies hatred so they stop this hit and run tactic that most of our troops are dying of.
scotmanster
scotmanster
28 months ago: Do you see my point mark?
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
28 months ago: Because we're not at war with Islam - we're at war with religious extremists who have perverted the noble religion of Islam. The noble quote is from ex-President Bush by the way.

http://www.presidentialrhetoric.com/speeches/01.13.08.html

Now if you want a war against Islam and let's put a Jesus verse on the barrel of every gun, we'll have to declare war on 47 different countries that are primarily Muslim.

That would include such countries as Turkey (a NATO ally), Indonesia, Morocco, Malaysia, and former Soviet Union republics such as Azerbaijan. WWII would seem like a picnic in comparison. As it is, our current wars in Iraq and Afghanistan have gone on for nearly twice as long as WWII. Do you want to be in a perpetual war for the next 100 years?
trish
trish
West Fork, AR
28 months ago: mark,your right they dont have to buy them ,but they are & i see it wastefull for tax payers to have to purchase new scopes,just because some dont agree with the military ,somebody has to make the descisions,and we may not like it but we should atleast back our countries descisions instead of making a mockery about the poor muslims,our country is in debt by helping their butts & if they dont like the scopes,who cares,they are going to find something to hate us about,even if wasnt the scopes,it would be eventually something.
Altruist
Altruist
Eugene, OR
28 months ago: Mark you have done a wonderful job of pointing out the danger of encouraging Islamic radicals in their belief that the US is conducting a war against Islam. 99.9% of Muslims are peaceful, but if they believe there is a war against their religion most would defend their religion.
People of faith realize this. See: http://www.faithfulamerica.org/
The fact that we reference God on our currency is not as offensive to Muslims, as proselytizing for Christianity, because they also trust in God, the same God of Abraham. Proselytizing is against Sharia law and missionaries can receive a death sentence for trying to convert a Muslim to Christianity in Saudi Arabia (our ally). It is also against the rules of the military which forbids proselytizing.
scotmanster
scotmanster
28 months ago: Do you honestly believe we would have a war with 47 other countries that practice islam? I mean really..It is not about Islam it is about a group of terrorists that are using religion as a crutch to fuel their war.

"danger of encouraging Islamic radicals"

You are certainly blowing this out of proportion Al..just a few people have a problem with a bible verse..the news agencies trump it to turn a profit and the rest of the sheep buy it thinking it is a real threat.

When did we start bowing down to terrorists? Get this we are over their putting bullets in their heads... how much more danger and encouragement do you need to see? If that is not encouragement enough for the radical Islamic extremists then I have no idea what is..the next thing you know Obama will be apologizing to them for it...Just a bunch of over exaggeration if you ask me...
scotmanster
scotmanster
28 months ago: Let me point out I was clear I said inflame the terrorists which is the enemy. I was strictly talking about terrorists.

If the non-american forces don't like the inscription then simply take the scope off the gun and be done with it. No need to make a huge political statement about it..
scotmanster
scotmanster
28 months ago: Sorry for the third post just seems like every chance the msm gets they drag the USA through the mud..it is like they are purposely fueling this anti-american propaganda for many reasons. One of the biggest reasons is to make the changes they want in this country..by selling to Americans our country is somehow fundamentally wrong...
28 months ago: Been following this via yesterdays emails that arrived before weather took away the internet for several hours.

How was over your way, trish? We got wind and rain and plenty of thunder and lighting over here in the foothills. (@36 crossing 67), by the way, you are almost surrounded.

Much has been said by me and others about this issue but I believe Altruist brings forth the best legal point so far and one I support, it is illegal for the US military to show support for religion, any religion, the same as it is illegal for any branch or member in uniform to show support for a political candidate. Like I said before and I'll ask it again, Do we want another civil war? Continued support for this company and what it's owners believe in is a very divisive issue and even though some think it is a petty issue, it is not. No more petty than your belief in a God and the Bible or another’s belief in the Koran and Allah. Issues of religion are never petty. And acts by a company to further the company’s owner’s religious beliefs by subverting the US military’s purchases are definitely not petty acts.

Should we pull all the scopes and buy new ones from a more honest manufacturer? Maybe, not my department. Should we have the soldiers grind off the Biblical references and possibly destroy the scope in the process? No, we could have the weapons techs do it but they are pretty busy just keeping the weapons under their care in good shape and burdening them with this chore is not best use of their talents.
28 months ago:
I think we should require the manufacturer to send it’s own employees, at their cost, to the war zone to remove the markings in a manner that will make it impossible to tell that it was ever there. Shouldn’t cost them more that a few hundred million and it will teach other manufacturers that forcing the owner’s religion upon others might sound like a good and noble task, but it is illegal to do it when it is the US military you are trying to pull a fast one on, and it is also illegal to do it to a citizen of the United States.

Remember, it’s not JUST a Biblical reference, it’s a subliminal attempt to put an idea about a certain religion into anyone’s head that sees it, they don’t even have to know what it is, it’s very format is all that an educated (can read) person needs to see to plant the seed deep in their brain. Let me clarify that a bit. The people we are fighting are not idiots, they recruit them but the leaders are well educated. They can take those few little letters and numbers and turn them into a very strong fact against the US, and if memory serves me, already have.

I have no desire to go to war against the entire Islamic world nor any other religiously backed country or group, and I especially don’t want to do over such a stupid act as what this manufacturer has done. Even killing an archduke was a better reason than this but when your enemy is looking for ANY excuse……
scotmanster
scotmanster
28 months ago: Well then take the chaplains out of the service too while your at it..hell they don't do nothing but proselytize and give others hope when their buddies are dying next to them.
28 months ago: Scot, was busy writing while you were posting….

I would think you would realize just how quickly something like this could get “blown out of proportion” by people whose fundamental thought processes are different than ours.

If our sending aid and providing instructors to teach better ways of doing things to other countries (at their request) can be interpreted as an attempt to subvert another countries religious power base and that be used to start a terrorist war against this country AND it’s people, why would you think that proselytizing by proxy would be interpreted as any different as an actual missionary standing there in a country that can put them to death for the very act? (see Al’s previous post)

These people don’t care if the scope is part of the soldiers issued gear, all they want is an excuse that they can use to justify there acts to their fellow countrymen so they can gain more troops and support to continue their war.
scotmanster
scotmanster
28 months ago: The biggest problem I have is you all are making this look like some evil deed the last time I checked God for many people was about hope,salvation,forgiveness...but when you start trying to turn it into something evil that you don't like for whatever personal prejudice you have then you are sure to make a big stink of it..

I was told where was I when talking about another article..my question is where were you all and why are you not protesting chaplains in the armed forces? That has been going on since the armed forces were formed but no one has a problem with that.
28 months ago: The Chaplains are there for those who desire their words of comfort in time of need. They don't force themselves upon anyone and their brand of proselytizing is limited to those who seek them out. Your statement would be akin to removing all the churches and preachers and priests from US soil. Something that even I wouldn't support.
scotmanster
scotmanster
28 months ago: "These people don’t care if the scope is part of the soldiers issued gear, all they want is an excuse that they can use to justify there acts to their fellow countrymen so they can gain more troops and support to continue their war."

Six I see your point but I disagree. I think by us putting bullets in their family members heads is enough to recruit anyone on the fence of being an extremist. Certainly we would want to do that so we don't have to come back again. I know those are grim words but that is war.
28 months ago: Hypothetical situation: Let’s say you want to buy a car. I sell you one. Hidden in plain sight somewhere in/on that car is a photo of a naked person. You are vehemently anti-nudity, I don’t know that you are so prudish but have no control over the photo because my purchasing agent bought the car off the shelf from a manufacturer who has an agenda. Don’t worry, it is a very small photo and you have to use a magnifying glass to see it, but many, many people know about it. This is the only manufacturer that does this and their product is very good. Oh, yeah, if others find out you bought this car and brought it to your church to attend services; you will be put to death on the spot. Who is the evil one here? Me? The agent? The manufacturer?
scotmanster
scotmanster
28 months ago: A bible verse does not recruit someone to join one's party, institution, or cause. The person would need to have that bible handed to them and pointed to the verse. They would be needed to led in the prayer of salvation. Those are the tools of witnessing (proselytizing).. it is just not.. here you go take this bible verse find your own bible and you will be saved.. If one does not even know what a bible verse looks like they would just think they are a bunch of numbers and letters.
scotmanster
scotmanster
28 months ago: Content Removed by scotmanster
28 months ago: One other thing. It's not God that is the issue. The verses are picked to support Evangelical Christian ideas about Jesus. As Al has said, references to "God" are accepted as generally supportive of all religions that require a figerhead. Jesus is not universally accepted.

Even ahteists will take your US money, but put a requirement to bow down to Him on taking it and that atheist will let you know where to go.
scotmanster
scotmanster
28 months ago: "Oh, yeah, if others find out you bought this car and brought it to your church to attend services; you will be put to death on the spot. Who is the evil one here? Me? The agent? The manufacturer?"

It would be my fault because I received the car knowingly. Just like it is the Iraqi's/Afghani's/Islams fault for knowingly asking for handouts when they have trillions of dollars of revenue pumping out of their oilfields.
scotmanster
scotmanster
28 months ago: Nahh I think for most it is about the bible verse period. It seems like that is not the case for you or mark but everyone else well it could be any bible verse and they would be offended.
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
28 months ago: I think we can solve this conundrum. We'll have the manufacturer put random codes from either the Torah, New Testament, Koran, Satanic Bible, or Darwin's On the Origin of The Species.

It will be like a fortune cookie - something to interesting to look while you're cleaning the weapon.

There might be a problem though if an evangelical soldier gets a gun sight with a Satanic bible verse on it or even a pithy saying from Darwin - he'd probably refuse to it and we'd have to allow for trades.

What do you say Scot - I'm sure you wouldn't mind using a government issued weapon with quotes from the Koran.
28 months ago: I think the outcome will be decided in the "world court", but if they look for US citizen input, they can use what we have written, pro and con, as a sampling to be added to other research.

Yeah, I messed up that part of the scenario, to better set the scene, you, the buyer would not know, you just needed a car and bought a good one without researching the quirks of the manufacturer, just the specs of the car, which do not include information about the photo.

You are right about the handouts. Just like here, a few people control the money and they aren't very charitable.

If you know anything about the federal governments buying methods, you will know that something’s are not always “above board”, the buyer may have the same agenda as the seller and they just don’t tell the next guy up the chain that there is a “hidden” meaning or quirk with items from a manufacturer. Ready Made, Off The Shelf is also getting a big push and can lead to some really bad ends if the purchaser has an agenda and someone isn’t paying attention down the line. Government contracts are a pain to fill and if you aren’t well versed in what is required and what is NOT permitted…….
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
28 months ago: From the US Army Chaplain Corps Website:

http://www.goarmy.com/chaplain/about_army_chaplain.jsp

"Army Chaplains are expected to observe the distinctive doctrines of their faith while also honoring the right of others to observe their own faith. The Army is a pluralistic environment. Rabbis, Ministers, Imams and Priests serve our Soldiers with conviction and commitment.

While serving their own faith groups in the Army, chaplains also ensure and provide the means for others to observe their own faith in accordance with US law and regulations."

Notice it's Rabbis, Ministers, Imams and Priests, and it's not about proselytizing - it's about providing the means for others to observe their own religion.
28 months ago: I'm going to go with "nothing" imprinted or stuck on the items our government buys that could be construed to promote or defame any religion, religious text, race, ethnic group, etc. That way the government is not promoting nor is it condemning anything or anybody.

There might even be some Monks in there too, mark, Buddhist and otherwise. It is a very open and tolerant part of the military, all branches.
scotmanster
scotmanster
28 months ago: Honestly those scopes will be collector editions if they ban them! No I would not mind Mark I can't read anyways! Hehe well least we all can laugh about it. I see your guys points and I to agree religion needs to stay out of our armed forces but they would be better off targeting some higher ranking officers that make their unit pray whether they like it or not. So I do understand the problem to some degree..
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
28 months ago: Looks like the problem is being solved:

http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/01/21/rifles.bibles/?hpt=T2

"A manufacturer that has been inscribing Bible references on rifle sights used by U.S. troops in Iraq and Afghanistan announced Thursday that it will stop putting scripture references on products the U.S. military uses.

Gen. David Petraeus, commander of United States Central Command, said Wednesday -- apparently before learning of the company's announcement -- that the references were a "big concern" to the U.S. Army and the U.S. Marine Corps, which have contracts for the scopes.

"I hope you can sense ... this is of serious concern to me and the other commanders in Iraq and Afghanistan because it can indeed create a perception that is absolutely contrary to what it is that we have sought to do," he said."
28 months ago: There goes the "Crusade".
markbyrn
markbyrn
 Moderator
28 months ago: ...There goes the "Crusade"...

I got plenty mileage of out this post - where's my google dollars?
28 months ago: Sorry TCG, You'll have to put your "Suit of Iron" back in storage, you can keep your mace out for some gentle back massage though, just remember not to roll over on it as the spikes can really leave a mark.

I’m sure they will still put them on the civilian models and if they have to reissue them to the military, the old ones will be for sale too.

For those who have not read the CNN link’s article, pay particular attention to the last three paragraphs, especially if you have any doubts about "why" some of us object to this type of "hidden" Christian preaching.

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