Culture & Lifestyle

Rant

Belief Verses Understanding

Posted 28 months ago|26 comments|578 views
Written by
DeanFox
England
Here I present some data to you, it is fact. All you need do to see the truth of it is understand it; obviously if you can't see the truth of it you don't understand it.

Being a Pastafarian I know that the universe began with pasta, all things formed from the sea of bolognese and humans are merely vessels for the eternal meatballs that must be freed from their noodly shackels. This is not some belief it is fact. It is knowledge we all have and through Pastafarianism can come to understand. I understand it and so can you.

OK, so before you all point out the apparent idiocy of the above "data" let's take time to consider where it really goes wrong.

It isn't so much the belief rather it is the idea that it is fact that one must come to understand rather than something to critically appraise. "if you cannot see the truth of it you don't understand it." is flawed thinking.

OK you may think so?

Well believe it or not people do fall in to the trap that if they cannot see something as true it's because they don't understand it rather than because it isn't true.

Worse the same people often come to believe they do understand said something and by doing so determine it must be true.

Even worse they come to the conclusion that because they believe they understand it and so it is true that don't believe in it rather they know it. It is no longer a belief they have rather it is knowledge they understand.

Effectively by applying the flawed thinking "if I cannot see it as true then I don't understand it" they transcend belief and faith in to delusional dogma and become sincere that they are possessed of fact rather than faith and belief.

OK, I accept this thinking is not an issue when applied to scientific fact, although the more philosophical amongst you may argue, but it is when this thinking is applied to someone's world view or belief system.

It's this kind of thinking that contributes to people becoming extremists with the characteristic we are right, they are wrong and our cause is righteous dogma. It is by instilling this kind of thinking that organisations or groups can manipulate people in to seeing the world their way.

Pasta is undeniably the basis of Life the Universe and Everything! The survival of humanity depends on everyone understanding this. You must help save the planet from the entanglement of noodles. Donate to the great bolognese drive that this can become so!

Thoughts?
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COMMENTS
28 months ago: So could we open some Pasta based resteraun....I mean centers of worshipful injesting and have them be tax exempt?
Cause I am so on board with that....We are not serving food we are conducting religious rituals...anyone who says otherwise is just a religious bigot.
28 months ago: Dean - you forgot the part about where the ones that don't understand it are just too bloody stupid to see it.

Or the part that where if we question it and don't just accept it because they told us to, based upon what they believe is irrefutable empirical evidence, we just plain idiots and believe in magic.
Or the part where if we believe anything contrary to their dogma we are fools not just people who disagree with them.

Axe to grind?....Yeah, sometimes....
28 months ago: Did you forget to wear a bib or tuck in your napkin inside your collar before you last ate spaghetti?
28 months ago: "Pasta is good, but it is not worthy of worship."

blasphemer

Huey I think Dean is talking more about how scientology says they do not have beliefs they have understanding. Not so much just an attack on religion. But I could be wrong.

Personally I believe in a supreme being, but that is just me.
28 months ago: Yeah...I still don't get that Scientology gobbledygook.

Don't foget to check out the book of Romans in the New Testament.

Nice post Dean.
28 months ago: "If people don't see it is true, they don't understand it". There's an accurate thought. "If you don't understand it, then it isn't true for you". There's an accurate thought. If you don't like pasta, you're a beanbrain. There's an accurate thought. lol.
DeanFox
DeanFox
England
28 months ago: Gezabelle is correct, though it is not just scientologists who hold to the idea that they know the truth rather than believe. It is a symptom of extremists that they know the truth rather than have belief and faith.

The idea that they know the truth rather than believe is more endemic in scientology though because of the nature of the belief system though.

That said such a strong, some would say, delusional belief (delusional because belief is no longer recognised), is not in as of itself a problem but it does leave one open to following orders by "religious" leaders.


Scientology is a hierarchical belief system, the beliefs actually change as you progress "up" or across the bridge.

As Terryeo has said they start off with the concept of "what is true for you is true for you". This changes subtly though and ultimately the scientologist comes to "know the truth".

A symptom of this is demonstrated by the fervent argument by scientologists that there is no belief in scientology, there is only understanding of knowledge, one which Terryeo demonstrates at length here:

http://rantrave.com/Rave/The-Day-Scientology-broke-10000.aspx

As an exercise in curiosity I have taken this debate to various other forums of faith including Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses and "inter faith" groups.

I am interested in finding out how many others can see the problems that can arise where belief and faith get replaced with "knowing the truth" when it comes to matters of philosophy and theology.
DeanFox
DeanFox
England
28 months ago: Scotsman. I am someone who seeks to understand various beliefs but not necessarily to believe them.

I believe that one's actions and the results of those actions matter more than one's beliefs and intent.

I believe that if there is a deity that a just one will judge not by how someone worshipped them or even whether they believed in them rather how one conducted themselves in life. If I am wrong then I am in trouble in the after life. Never the less that is my belief.

I believe in tolerance of belief. My objections are to actions not belief. For instance I do not object to the belief in scientology rather I object to the actions and results of the actions of the organisation calling itself the church of scientology.
DeanFox
DeanFox
England
28 months ago: For the record I believe that most scientologists are good people who have been misguided by the organisation calling itself the church of scientology.

It isn't so much that they have been misguided in to believing in past lives, an eternal soul (thetan), rather it is how they are misguided in to becoming recruiting machines for the organisation. Maybe there is an eternal force that survives the body and has lived for ever, if there is it doesn't matter what you call it.

My problems with the actions of the organisation calling itself the church of scientology are many but let's take a more obscure one. The volunteer ministers (VMs) who turn up at disaster zones to help.
DeanFox
DeanFox
England
28 months ago: VMs believe that the only way to truly help is to disseminate the tech, to get people on to the bridge to total freedom to effectively recruit people for the organisation.

This is why when VMs arrive at a disaster zone they come complete with all the materials necessary to help people become members of their organisation. This is why they take the time to explain to victims of the disaster how scientology can help them and offer to sell them various scientology literature.

VMs do not usually bring with them their own supplies, food, water and shelter so inevitably end up using that intended for the victims. VMs may claim to be helping the helpers yet the helpers are already geared up to help themselves.

VMs are also taught the importance of good PR and so always bring with them someone to handle the media to ensure they get good publicity.

In short VMs use disaster zones as recruitment and publicity opportunities in the sincere belief that they are doing good. At best that's all they do but because of their other dogma, like psychiatrists are the root of all evil they can also get in the way.

At New York 9/11, London 7/7 and the boxing day tsunami to name just 3 the VMs spent time actively trying to prevent what they saw as a threat by the psychiatric industry from interfering. They actively blocked aid and disseminated anti-psychiatry literature at disaster zones.
DeanFox
DeanFox
England
28 months ago: Lastly this is not an attack on religion rather pointing out the dangers that can occur when one ceases to believe they believe and starts to believe they know the truth.

Most people of faith talk of having faith and belief, only the really extreme zealots talk of knowing or understanding the truth.
28 months ago: The theory of evolution has also become one of those belief systems.

Evolution is the TRUTH. No room for creation ideas or theories, no room for intelligence, no room for contrary theories at all.

It's a dogma to be believed and not questioned because, after all it's obvious to intelligent people that life has evolved. Isn't it?

Forget about the gaping holes in the fossil records, forget about the Cambrian explosion, forget about the genetic impossibilities, forget about the fabricated "evidence", forget about the mathematical impossibilities, forget about the about the disingenuous illustrations, forget about the second law of thermodynamics, forget about having a contrary opinion you non-intellectual creature from the dark-ages. You are an idiot. Evolution is a fact you moron.
Altruist
Altruist
Eugene, OR
28 months ago: If school districts or communities demand that all students pray in class or be taught that intelligent design is science, or that the bible's version of creation is valid, than I must demand that my belief in the Noodly Goodness of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, is just as valid as their religion and that all religions should be treated equally.
"Belief" in evolution does not depend upon Dogma. The recent discovery of Ardipithecus ramidus, nicknamed "Ardi." did not weaken evolutionary theory but instead strengthened it because it filled one of those "Holes" in the fossil evidence Huey was talking about. Evolution is constantly questioned and our understanding is constantly evolving. Belief in the scientific method and peer reviewed research does not constitute "Dogma" because many of the theories are constantly changing.
Scientists get all excited if researchers can find proof that some aspect of accepted scientific theory is wrong. That is what makes research fun.


28 months ago: Let me just post a single example here. It is a good idea to look up words you don't know in a good dictionary, find a meaning that applies, and make up some sentences with that meaning.

This perfectly sensible procedure can result in increased literacy, certainly it would reduce your doubt and increase your ability to communicate when using that word.

This isn't some strange belief out of the blue, this is simply good sense. Get the picture, Mr. Fox?
DeanFox
DeanFox
England
28 months ago: Terryeo, thank you for your example. It is as you say good sense and not part of the "strange beliefs" of scientology, just something scientologists happen to do.

As I have always said Terryeo my problem isn't with Scientology it is with the attitude of adherents who claim it contains no beliefs.

Subscribers to the organisation calling itself the church of scientology dogmatically claim they don't have any beliefs they only have truth.

This makes it quite arrogant - believers of other religions are inferior because they have belief and faith, where as such does not exist in scientology. Something you demonstrate repeatedly.

Scientologists say they have studied and come to understand the teachings of L Ron Hubbard and through doing this shown it to be true.

I understand quite a few teachings, yet this does not make any one of them more true than any other; indeed some are patently false.

I have learned that you can study something and come to understand how it can be held to be true and yet it need not true.
28 months ago: All due respect, you can believe or have faith in what you want.

Ardi is a joke. The poor thing doesn't even have a spine or a complete pelvis. Every time a new monkey shows up they link it to humans and some people swallow it. Sad.

BTW - the gaping holes are still gaping.

Intelligent design is not science. Neither is the big bang because neither can be proved. Both require faith.

Any time you start talking about the origin of the universe you are dealing with belief not proven facts.

NO ONE has proven the origin of life and NO ONE has proven the origin of the universe scientifically. Until that is done it is all based on faith in what we perceive to be the truth one way or another. Like it or not.
DeanFox
DeanFox
England
28 months ago: From a philosophical point of view we could all be part of a computer simulation but on balance of probabilities that is unlikely, still...

I have not seen the show "Finding Ardi" yet, I may get to see it this Sunday.

The argument that the Ardi remains should have been deeper underground is flawed. Naturally one expects this because things will get deposited on top of the remains over time. There are however many mechanisms that result in very ancient remains being found on the surface; we see deposits of earth being moved around all the time by wind and rain.

With respect to bone dispersion there are also several explanations that would work. Bodies washed from graves by floods don't necessarily become dispersed for instance; it all depends on the level and nature of decomposition and preservation of the remains. Where cemeteries have been flooded out the bodies are often reburied elsewhere intact, even when the casket has been opened as often happens in such cases.
DeanFox
DeanFox
England
28 months ago: Huey: "Any time you start talking about the origin of the universe you are dealing with belief not proven facts."

I agree. I know a number of scientists who agree too, even those who seek to find the "god particle" tend to agree.

Fact is even if science could produce a reasonable, demonstrable, provbable model for how the universe might have evolved from the "big bang" it will never be able to explain why that"big bang" happened.

Many scientists are also quite religious because no matter how much they can figure out with respect to how everything interacts they is still the big question, why?

Even if evolution is true the mechanisms involved are so wondrous as to inspire a belief in a deity among some of those who study such matters.

Perhaps the Bible is God's word design for the people of the day that they might understand it; if God had tried explaining how he created matter and crafted the laws that govern how it interacts such that DNA would result and so "life" would occur it might be a bit much for the those who'd only just figured out how to smelt some metals and believed one can turn lead in to gold by mixing the right ingredients in a jar.

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