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#1 Most Terrible Religion?

Posted 30 months ago|226 comments|2,387 views
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According to "many," Christianity is the #1 Worst Religion... so says David G. McAfee.
http://davidgmcafee.wordpress.com/2010/0...

It is not the first time in history that this kind of thing has happened... even the Bible declares that God's followers were giving Him a bad name: (Romans 2:24 For "THE NAME OF GOD IS BLASPHEMED AMONG THE GENTILES BECAUSE OF YOU," just as it is written). Though I am a Christian, now... I can understand why some can have such a hate for God, because of those who bear His Name. I was raised RC and soon moved on in my teen years to ABC (anything but Christ)... I was taking out my pain on God, for what mankind was doing... in His Name.

Most of these bad examples were simply not following Christ... not Christ-ians! Logically, if I am born in Canada, and I am patriotic, I am a Canadian... if I am born in Christ, and I am faithful, I am a Christian. Is there any teachings from Jesus Christ that we wouldn't want to live by, or are not beneficial to all mankind? Can I blame Jesus if people don't live His Word?

I was challenged to find out for myself if what Christ taught was good, and personally found out myself if He was real. Listen to critics... but follow truth... The truth need not be defended... it need only be lived.

Oh, next time Mr. David G. McAfee judge the book by the Author, not the reader!
UPDATE - 30 months ago
Here is a good one for anyone overcoming hurt (Cristine Cain is amazing!)
"Stop acting like a Christian and be one"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zj8CmnANa...
UPDATE - 30 months ago
"God chose to be one of the sons of men... That we thorough Him could choose to be one of the sons of God." Author: Known
UPDATE - 14 months ago
John Piper - Don't Waste Your Life
http://dwynrhh6bluza.cloudfront.net/reso...
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COMMENTS
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
30 months ago: I'm going to have to agree that Christianity is the most despicable organized religion...but that isn't saying much since all religions (in the organized sense) are evil.
30 months ago: ..and your picture looked sooo cute..

Is "love one another" evil?
Secrios
Secrios
England
8 months ago: If that inplies taking my porn away then yes, it is evil!
8 months ago: Secrios...

What do you need porn for? IF you build proper relationships, you won't have to waste so much time masturbating to your fantasy relationships.
30 months ago: PH,

Are you OK with disorganized religion?
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
30 months ago: disorganized and private (i.e. I don't want to hear about your beliefs...ever) is fine by me.

The Christian religion as an organization is the most sinister, evil organization on the planet, not to mention the most un-American, hateful group I have ever seen. (they hate the Constitution too...)
30 months ago: PH,

If you are talking about the Catholic, Mormon, and other big-business "religion" I agree with you... but there is nothing hateful in the teachings of Jesus. As too the Constitution... it was the Christian teachings that had the biggest part to do with it.
30 months ago: PH,

You gotta be out of your mind if you thing they are un-American! They are the most patriotic souls going. Sorry, but you got to get out more.
Secrios
Secrios
England
8 months ago: America is about freedom! Not bowing down to a homophobic god.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
30 months ago: The Constitution was framed and written largely by non-Christians.

To me America is about liberty...and since every Christian I know is anti-liberty I consider them to be the biggest anti American people I know.
30 months ago: PH,

What you claim is anti American is just Higher Allegiance... you know, "One nation under God." To some America is all about their own freedom while others barely live to serve America... Where is the freedom for them?
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
30 months ago: I'm referring to liberty for ALL. Christians only care about liberty if it involves themselves, but if it is something they are opposed to (abortion, gay marriage etc) then liberty is irrelevant because it offends the poor brainwashed folks who cannot comprehend that not everybody in the world believes in the same fairy tales that they do.

P.S. For another example: The Atheist statement that was put up among the other winter holiday displays in the Washington State capital drew huge outcry from the right wing Christians about how its sooooooo offensive. Now lets just pretend for a minute that instead of allowing that display that the Governor instead said: "No religious displays of any kind"...the world would have stopped spinning and then there would have been even more outcry about how the State of Washington/Governor hates Christians and is limiting freedom of religion and blah blah blah. As you can see...Christianity is not only sinister but also hypocritical at ever turn.
30 months ago: Perfect,

As to false religion being evil you may have a point... but God is love.
Albert Einstein was no Atheist... check out his review of Christianity:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0iXKIf2XO...
He asked "who are the real slaves?"
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
30 months ago: I have seen that video numerous times. It is quite interesting. One question though: When did we start talking about Albert Einstein?

False religion? Can we define that because I am certain that you are not thinking what I am when I see that. All religion is false in my opinion and therefore all religion is evil. Organized religion is just much, much more evil than the concept of religion as a whole.
BadCyborg
BadCyborg
San Antonio, TX
27 months ago: Ignorantly repeating an old meme, Perfect Horizon blithely wrote:
"The Constitution was framed and written largely by non-Christians."
BZZZZZZTTTTTTTT!!!!! WRONG ANSWER!!

This is a perfect example of Ronald Regan's sage pronouncement that the people on the left are not ignorant. They just know so much that isn't so.

If you would bother to do any research you would discover that the majority of the signers of both the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution were members of mainstream Christian groups. Christian Values are at the very core of our nation's founding values.

"since every Christian I know is anti-liberty I consider them to be the biggest anti American people I know."
That is as base and baseless a canard as ever I have heard. I have never - to the best of my knowledge - met someone claiming to be a Christian who was against liberty. Yes there is a fairly specific way of life detailed in the Bible but no one is forced to live that way. Creator God never coerced anyone into following Him. The Carpenter's Son called people to him, he never gave them the "choice" of following him or being killed (unlike Islam which has such "conversion" codified in the Koran). Unlike Mohammed, the Carpenter's Son never specified execution for one leaving the faith.
27 months ago: BC,

We can agree? Cool, as in one of my posts... if one "looses faith" God still remains faithful... as is stated in scripture...

"if we are faithless, He remains faithful— for he cannot deny himself." 2Timothy 2:13
http://www.rantrave.com/Rave/ETERNAL-SEC...
30 months ago: "Is there any teachings from Jesus Christ that we wouldn't want to live by, or are not beneficial to all mankind?"

Yes, absolutely. The whole do unto others thing is nice and all, but really it's the evil between the lines where Christians get twisted. Have you seen the God Hates Fags site? From the hate filled Christians at Westboro who spew some of the most revolting things I've heard.

I do believe that Christianity is the worst religion out there.
30 months ago: @ Alex_

Don't blame Christ for some of the pin-heads (Westboro for instance) that claim to be His followers.

Jesus spent time with the folk most "respectable" people would shun. People like you and me. The only folks he had biting words for was the religious establishment.

Don't make the mistake of making sweeping generalized statements that put all "religious" people into nice little pigeon holes. You're smarter that and besides, there are enough atheists/agnostics out there that already do that.

BTW - I also believe Chrisitanity is the worst religion out there simply becuase becuase Jesus never came to found a religion in the first place. He came to call people unto Himself.
30 months ago: HN,

Good man!

Well put!
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
30 months ago: If defining all the people who believe in the same fictional story book as Christians, and then basing assumptions on those people is pigeonholing then I suppose that makes me guilty.

For example: All Christians who fight strongly to prevent gay people who love each other form getting married are evil, wicked people and should burn in their fictional hell.

If that makes me guilty of pigeon holing then so be it...but its true too.
30 months ago: @Huey - Sir, I do believe I am one of those Jesus would have hung with and I've heard that about him. :) I do think Jesus was a man who walked the earth. I just don't know about all the rest, son of God, white, etc.

As for Westboro it was just an example. Some who claim Christianity spew more hatred than I could conjure up for those real people who've passed through my life inflicting pain. I do not at all box them all in, it was the first example that came to mind.

I think too many have died in the name of God and Jesus.

I do know some great, loving Christians. As well, I know some great, loving Atheists and Agnostics.
30 months ago: Perfect,

Don't know why you are sooo angry about that... the idea of "marriage" is represented as foundational in the Bible you call fiction.

Are you homosexual?
30 months ago: Alex,

Thanks for your honesty.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
30 months ago: Marriage also exists in other religions and cultures other than Christianity...

I'm not angry, I am disgusted with all people who claim to be Christians and also claim to love this country yet try to strip the liberty and freedom and equality away from people because of their close minded, evil beliefs.

I am not.

I am talking about the legal act of marriage. If your church doesn't want to perform homosexual marriages, fine that is their right. But the state should perform, without interference from the religious right, homosexual marriages.
30 months ago: Alex,

God doesn't have a website... and He loved everyone enough to die for them... so if someone is spewing hate and hurting people... they are not following Jesus Christ. What your saying is like those who say "I think America is the worst country out there" ...because of what politicians have said and done. I can understand your frustration... but maybe others are just responding to your venom.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
30 months ago: "God doesn't have a website"

Finally a true statement about God...he cannot have website because "he" doesn't exist...
30 months ago: Indeed.

I thought Jesus died for everyone though...

Not sure I get the America correlation. And, I surely don't spout venom. Is it not irony when I state my beliefs and you state yours yet mine is venomous because it's not riddled w/Christian backing.

You asked something about following Jesus. I replied w/something I've seen first hand picketing, following Jesus. It doesn't make sense to me that you can decide that this Jesus follower is right, this other is wrong, this other one really isn't following, and so forth.

I do think America has gone downhill though. It's a sad country. But, it's sure not because of what I believe.
30 months ago: Alex,

Sorry on the clarity..
I was talking about so called "Christians" spewing the hatred.
Out Of The Box
Out Of The Box
 Moderator
27 months ago: @ Alex_

Did we all know that the Westboro right wing wackjob is a .....wait for it.......a Democrat?

He was a civil rights attorney, and helped dismantle the Jim Crow laws in his state. He was disbarred for calling a hostile witness a "slut" during a punitive damages case,(in which he was the plaintiff), and cross-examined her on the stand for nearly a week.

He believes that the US is a sodomite nation of flag worshiping idolaters.

Phelps supported Al Gore in the 1988 Democratic Party primary election.[37] In his 1984 Senate race, Gore opposed a "gay bill of rights" and stated that homosexuality was not something that "society should affirm".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Phelps

He ran for governor in Kansas on the Democratic ballot in 1990.
Ran for Senate on the Democrat ticket in 1992.
Ran for Governor of Kansas again in 1994, still a Democrat.
Ran for Governor of Kansas yet again in 1998.

I think this if off topic, perhaps, but I found it interesting that one of the most vile, hate filled radical churches is led by a Democrat.
30 months ago: God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve, He loves the Sinner but hates the sin. Alex and Horizon, what do you believe in, answer this, what will happen to you when you die?
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
30 months ago: It is only a sin to those who are closeminded and hateful like you.

I am a carbon based life form. When I die I will decompose.
30 months ago: @ Edward - If there is a god, he/she most definitely did too make Adam and Steve. Love is not a sin. What I cannot stand are those who hide behind their religious beliefs. You can spout off any little rhyme you want, but you have nothing original to say.

Answer me this. Why ask PH if about praying for him/her? Do you realize that this is one of the most disrespectful things that Christians do? You just prove that you don't think you are free to believe differently. It's like me asking if you want me to burn a stack of bibles, melt the cross you wear, pee on the side of your church -- it's offensive. (none of which I'd do of course)

Asking someone to pray for them is just a slap in the face. It's like you think you are better because you can pray. Not so. Think about it next time.

As for death...did it ever occur to you that I can be an Agnostic and still think that my grandpa turns the light on sometimes in the room that he died in...
30 months ago: If only that was true, ignorance is not an excuse.

Tell me did you come up with that all by your self?
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
30 months ago: You are the ignorant one sir. You are so completely brainwashed that you refuse to recognize the fact that its all just made up. Christianity is the worst of all, it is young compared to the others yet it claims to be the one truth...its all bogus.

If only what was true? Do human being's bodies not deteriorate and decompose after death?

Just because you are not capable of living life in the moment and you are obsessed with death (like all religious people). Religion is only a crutch because people like you are too weak minded to accept the fact that we are simply chemical reactions in a carbon based body...when we stop living that's it...just like trees, bugs, cats, dogs, birds etc etc.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
30 months ago: Your homophobia proves that Christianity is a religion of hatred.

Your opposition to abortion proves that Christians are anti-liberty and anti-American by default.
30 months ago: Perfect,

1) You seem to be a "carbon based life form" until someone puts a "carbon foot print" on your beliefs of "freedom" ... or breaks into your house and takes it from you.

2) You are free to do with your body as you choose... killing a child inside encroaches on their freedom... when your "carbon based life form" is of no use to the government... you'll be praying they were a little more Christ-like.

3) Homophobic? You don't have a clue... do what you want... just don't expect people to agree with you. Even "carbon based life forms" need to procreate... sounds like you are a little Bible-phobic.

Sound like you are due for a hug.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
30 months ago: 1) This sentence makes very little sense. I believe in absolute freedom as outlined by the founding fathers...your religious beliefs have 0 impact on what another person does...only the constitution can dictate law.

2) Abortion in the 1st trimester does not kill anything. In order to die (ergo: be killed) something must first be alive, which is simply not the case in the 1st trimester.

3) You are not the homophobe (that I am aware of), Ed is. People of the Christian religion that call for gay marriage to be illegal are evil, hateful people doing so in the name of the "loving God and Jesus". It is impossible to preach love and freedom but then take it away from other people.

4) I'm not afraid of a poorly written work of fiction...I just loath when people use it to try and gain power over others.

5) Hugs are awesome...
30 months ago: Perfect,

1) Tell that to those who's beliefs are overriding the Constitution as we speak!

2)Abortion stops a beating heart... who has the "freedom" to stop your heart?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0WNRR-ep...

3) I fear no homosexual even though I was abused by some... I have forgiven them thanks to the Jesus you think is irrelevant... these guys are still living today because my faith has 100% impact on their lives. I do not hate anyone that chooses that lifestyle... I just don't agree with it.

4) Most of those who wrote the Bible suffered and died terrible deaths to share their experience with God... they sought to control no one... but because of it's work, it has been the foundation of "human rights" as we know them today.

5) A friend told me one day about someone who called him out for a fight... he just went up an gave him a big long hug... right there in front of God and everyone... the fight was over. You are so right... Hugs are awesome!

6) This is as far as I can count.
30 months ago: @truth - as you shouldn't fear homosexuals. They're quite friendly actually. By abused, if you mean as a child by someone of the same gender then those men were pedophiles. There is a grave misunderstanding that those who molest children are homosexual, but they are NOT (there is statistical anomalies, sure). Whether men or women, they are pedophiles. This distinction is very important and often twisted.

None of that is said to invalidate your experience, whatever it was.

The bottom line w/homosexuality is that people hate gay folks over an act. An act that many straight people do as well. It is one of the most absurd things to hate someone over. The whole reproduction thing I don't buy either, as a reason. There are many who cannot reproduce. I don't agree much w/in vitro or test tube babies.

Yes. Hugs. They're Great!
30 months ago: Alex,

Who made up this classification .. pedophiles? When was the term coined? It seems the day before the term existed they were off the hook... depending what side of the fence they were.

From my personal observance (with others that had children in the same circumstance) when "they" can't find someone to "consent" they aim a little younger. I wonder... do you cease to be a pedophile when you choose only those just of age... or become one choosing a "partner" that is 5 days younger than their birthday?

Oh, which "moral" tribunal says what is of legal age? If there is no "right or wrong" it shouldn't matter to you at all!
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
30 months ago: 1) Who would that be? Which religious views are trying to thrash the Constitution besides those of Christians?

2) Life simply does not exist in the 1st trimester. Human life requires a fully functional brain and this does not exist until roughly the 25th week of pregnancy. Until then abortion is simply removing a parasitic cell. Further more...it is none of your business what a women does with her body, period. If your religious views are against abortion that's fine...don't have one, just leave the rest of us who don't share your beliefs alone.

3) Your agreement with homosexuality is not of concern...you are not gay so there ya go. You have no right to tell anyone else what is right or wrong, period...that's called liberty, but since you and others like you feel the need to belittle other people for being gay makes you and others like you evil, liberty hating people.

4) They have no experience. It was all part of the plot to control peasants...they are easily brainwashed.

5) Nice!

6) HAHAHA
30 months ago: Perfect,

"Life simply does not exist in the 1st trimester. Human life requires a fully functional brain and this does not exist until roughly the 25th week of pregnancy. Until then abortion is simply removing a parasitic cell. Further more...it is none of your business what a women does with her body"

I guess you didn't view the video I referred

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0OTkWfLE...
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
30 months ago: I did watch it. There is no sustained brain wave activity until the 25th week of pregnancy. Prior to a fully functional brain there is no life. And even if there was, its still none of your business what other people do. Your beliefs do not give you dominion over any other person.
30 months ago: The coining of "pedopholia" is completely irrelevant. Homosexuals like the same gender, just as heterosexuals like opposite gender. It is really that SIMPLE. Rape is an act of control. Pedophile - From two Greek words: ''pedo" means "child;" and "philia" means "love for." Of every gender, sexual orientation, ethnicity, age, etc., there are those who abuse children. Saying homosexuals are all pedophiles is like saying all white people are pedophiles, too.

You are saying that Ellen Degeneres would choose a child if she didn't have a partner. That is ridiculous. Surely you can see that whether you admit it or not.

You can try to justify your feelings and hatred toward gay people by attempting to mix the terminology, but it doesn't change the reality that you're wrong. In your world it makes sense, but in the overall scheme it's far from truth. You'd be better suited untangling the twists that happened to you. It's very common for boys hurt by men to develop very shameful feelings about sexuality. It's confusing and most go through a stage of wondering if they're gay because of whatever happened, and then vehemently disagreeing w/homosexuality because of an internalized homophobia. Same goes for women. It's part of the psychological survival that humans go through to stay sane after trauma. Untwisting those untruths that fester inside is healing. Passing on misinformation only wounds others and you more.

Example: If a woman is raped by a Mexican man it's very tempting to hate all Mexican men and lump them into a category of sexual predators and rapists. But, it's not true, or realistic. It is easy to see why she'd think that way based on her experience. It's normal for her to develop a fear of those who look, smell, act, like the man. It's a maladaptive coping strategy, but it's inaccurate and harmful.

Who said there is no RIGHT and WRONG. Not me. Read my words, don't make them up for me.
30 months ago: Alex,

You have a lot to say and I agree with some.. it is unfair to paint everyone with the same brush.. I get that and apologize for the implication... but you didn't answer my question about age.. and who decides our "morality" of what is right and wrong? Is it our society?

As to rape.. what can happen is for the victim to try and control the memory of the incident and become very promiscuous... like you mentioned about boys questioning if they are "gay" because they were raped by a man... studies have shown that most "gays" have been abused thus confusing them.

Question: If a person questions if he is gay or not based on an abuse that has happened, isn't it not a learned behavior?
30 months ago: No, not a learned behavior. Two things:

1. Pedophiles, child abusers, (even domestic violence) are usually re-enacting trauma. Most pedophiles were abused, though not all. They're exerting control and engaging in learned behavior, regardless of the gender they prefer.

2. What about lesbian or bisexual women? Most are abused by men. In the theory of gay/same gender as learned behavior they would be straight, right? Some people are just...gay. No learned behavior. It's just natural. I truly believe people are just born that way.

Studies show 1 in 4 girls and 1 in 6 boys are sexually abused.

"Most teen sexual abuse victims (7 in 10, or 70%) know their abuser. It is generally a family member, or someone close to the family." This shows we are a very wounded society. But, it's important to un-weave the homosexual aspect and just break it down to people.

Rape victims often go promiscuous or super abstinent. Both have intimacy issues. Society focuses more on the hyper-sexual. We are an oversexed society regardless of anyone's orientation.

Some rape victims later re-enact rape scenes and can only be around sex if there's violence attached. I think a large sub-culture participates in that stuff (bondage, S&M) and calls it something else. There's just a line there. There is definitely a learned behavior attached to all of that stuff.

Overall, I think that's my point. It's not being limited to gay folks. It's a human condition to respond to trauma and we all are programmed differently.

Not sure I understand the age question. The morality of the age thing is totally cultural. We think other cultures are effed up when they engage in different rituals than us. Who is to say who is right? Not me. But, in the US there's law.
Who decided age 18 means something, I don't know. I think legal age should be 19. We're not even fully psychologically developed until 22-24 (why the army gets 'em young).

I do have a lot to say! :)
30 months ago: Alex,

You do have a lot to say and I appreciate the effort. I see it like this.. in short we are male and female, a confusing of the genders is confusing and deviant. If left to that orientation there would be no procreation... thus mutation ends its viability. The only other way that it can then carry on is by society retraining and increasing the pool... and in our society the pool is getting full... by the retraining via abuse.

It is OK to defend ones choice but the only ones that have a genetic "leg" to stand on are those born with both or ambiguous gender.
30 months ago: Alex,

I am not trying to anger you.. we just come from two different schools of thought.

1) I believe my ancient textbook that never changes regardless of fad or foe... given to us by God thorough Jesus, the Prophets and Apostles.

2) You believe the modern textbook ever-changing and manipulated by grants to public opinion... given to you by Sigmund Freud, Charles Darwin and their profits and teachers.

I find it strange... if the public school system punished teachers for preaching Darwin you would be in an uproar... Oh, they did that already... my point is if it was unacceptable back then to preach or teach a belief... why do you allow it today? Lets keep religion out of the Public Schools; mine and yours!
30 months ago: I wholeheartedly believe that if it WERE A CHOICE that those who are gay or lesbian, transgender, or bisexual, would NOT choose it.

Why in the world would you choose to be the most hated group of human beings on earth? Also, homosexual people do not confuse their genders. The procreation bit is a futile one because there are plenty of women and men who cannot reproduce. Why do you think that petri-dish babies are so plentiful? Or sextuplets? If there were not an inherent biological 'dysfunction' in hetero couples, artificial insemination, etc., wouldn't exist.

Besides, science can only prove what it's capable of proving until it proves itself wrong. Got that :) I'm pretty positive there's genetics involved in many things science has yet to reveal. Until then, people can use its non-existence as some sort of evidence. What irony, you can't see god but you believe...
Content Removed by Alex_
30 months ago: About teaching in school...

I thing it should all be taught. A class about all of the different religions and schools of belief.

Darwin -- The point of teaching about evolution is NOT to say there is no god. This is a very common belief though. You cannot deny that human beings have evolved over time. You can believe in the evolutionary process of animals/humans AND god.
30 months ago: Also, I'm not angry. Just stating what I think.

It has taken me a lot of effort to search myself well enough over time to arrive at some of these finer points. I think too many people fail to set aside their own judgments and settle for their own versions of truth.
30 months ago: Alex,

I think this is all a worthy discussion for us as well as those who may happen by, and I thank you for your honesty. We all were not born the way we are now... Christianity is not very popular as the initial post stated...
If it was popularity I was interested in...
My choices may have been different... but what was I going to do? Jesus changed me.
30 months ago: Is your body you? Do you have a Soul? Or are you an animal?
I need some intelligent answers, not name calling.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
30 months ago: My body is me...It contains the cells which make up the mammal known as humans. Those cells produce a huge number of chemical reactions that are the result of necessity and also reaction to environment. Human beings are carbon based life forms. We are in reality not much different other than size than any other mammal (in fact rats are so closely related to us that almost all modern medications are tested on them for reactions). There is no soul...no heaven...no hell. There is Earth (the planet which we live on that contains the right combination of nutrients to support carbon based life and there the life forms (i.e. Humans, Canines, Felines, Avian, etc etc etc etc). Human beings have advanced neurological functions, much like cats and dolphins, and these give us "intelligence" which is more or less just the chemical reactions based on stimuli in the environment that we are in. Such is the case with all carbon based life forms, we have a life cycle. When we reach the end of that life cycle, the cellular functions of our bodies stop working and we eventually die. Following death the carbon based life form known as our body begins to deteriorate and eventually decompose...which marks the end of the life of a human being or any other carbon based life form.
sunny2
sunny2
23 months ago: After all that big story, you forgot the soul.
I believe people who have souls are the only ones that can tell a different story.
Maybe that's why they can see more. The others are only carbon based so what does it matter to them. Right?
30 months ago: Do animals have souls? How do you know?
sunny2
sunny2
23 months ago: Because they have the ability to love.
You can look into the eyes of your pet who becomes a wonderful loyal friend and see it staring right back at you.
30 months ago: Thank you.

I believe differently, but we are free to believe freely. Do you want me to pray for you?
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
30 months ago: You can "believe" whatever you want, it doesn't change what is fact.

You can do whatever you want...because I believe in absolute liberty without limitations based on a sinister cult. Pray for whatever you want.
30 months ago: Here is a good one for anyone overcoming hurt (Cristine Cain is amazing!)
"Stop acting like a Christian and be one"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zj8CmnANa...
30 months ago: As said before, Christians are anti-liberty. Who else would attempt and many times succeed in passing laws that restrict the pursuit of happiness for other citizens of the same area.
30 months ago: SH,

If the pursuit of "happiness" is killing an unborn child... or as the James Hartline reports says, the abuse of children.... then yes, I as a Christian am against this kind of "Liberty."
http://jameshartlinereport.blogspot.com/

Maybe you can be more specific on which freedoms were taken from you.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
30 months ago: Once again. 1st trimester abortion does not kill anything. Human life requires a fully functioning brain (constant brain wave activity). This simply does not exist until well after the 1st trimester. Your moralistic, religious views may be different but that does not change that scientifically there is no sustained brain activity until the 25th(ish) week of pregnancy. Your religious views are not grounds for government policy. You have no right to tell other people what they can and cannot do based on your oppressive views. As a Christian, if you are anti abortion fine...don't have an abortion and mind your own business.

Pedophilia is not related in any way to gay marriage. You are anti gay marriage because you wish to impose your oppressive religious views on others through government policy...which in this country you have no right to do. If you would like to have a government run by religion please feel free to move to Iran.
30 months ago: PH,

1) You seem like one on a river called "denial" ...close-minded or unaware... so I have given you some links to help. The following is for the 1st trimester:
http://www.deathroe.com/baby_development...

"Years ago, while giving an anesthetic for a ruptured tubal pregnancy (at two months) I was handed what I believed to be the smallest human being ever seen. The embryo sac was intact and transparent. Within the sac was a tiny human male, swimming extremely vigorously in the amnionic fluid, while attached to the wall by the umbilical cord. The tiny human was perfectly developed, with long, tapering fingers, feet and toes. It was almost transparent as regards to the skin, and the delicate arteries and veins were prominent to the ends of the fingers. The baby was extremely alive and did not look at all like the photos and drawings of 'embryos' which I have seen."
- Paul E. Rockwell
http://www.100abortionpictures.com/Abort...

2) My reference to Pedophilia was to those who claim "total" liberty as you have and apparently care less about this act if pursuing "happiness"...

3) I disagree with pagan practices, sure... but I object to gay "marriage" when people refer to it as "Christian" which it is not... or desire to be married in a Church by a Minister of the Gospel, which they cannot and be faithful to that same Gospel.

And that just happens to be my (unpaid) business.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
30 months ago: I have researched both sides of the argument and I will forever hold that life simply does not exist in the 1st trimester. As it stands 1st trimester abortion is legal and therefore It is even less yours or my business what a women does with her body.

You disagree with Pagan practices? Tell me do you have a Christmas tree in your house? How about the Easter Bunny and Eggs?

Total liberty as outlined in the Constitution of the United States of America. The whole thing too...not just the parts I like. This does not permit breaking the law (child abuse). Marriage is the act of two people who love eachother joining their lives together that is all. Not all Christians are equally evil and closeminded and hateful. Some churches welcome the thought of bringing two loving people together. You have no say in what they do on their property. If your church chooses not to perform gay marriages, fine...they don't but other do and the thing that you and all the Christians like you (sinister, evil closeminded hateful ones) need to realize is that you can have those beliefs...but you have zero Constitutional authority to request them to be made into law.
30 months ago: PH,

"You disagree with Pagan practices? Tell me do you have a Christmas tree in your house? How about the Easter Bunny and Eggs?"

No on both cases... never did lie to our kids about Santa or Bunnies.

As to "total liberty" sorry, you seemed to be ambiguous, but affirmed that you had
"total liberty" it is good to see that your morality can be regulated by law. On that basis if a law was passed that said that gay marriages were not legal would you support that law? Whenever the public votes on issues like this... that is the way it goes.

I think you would go with your conscience. And that is what I do. We have that in common. I am not trying to force anyone... but I neither want to be forced to do something against my beliefs. This is the point I am making.

And I didn't have to call you evil or sinister to do that. It seem those accusing others of hate need to look in the mirror.
30 months ago: PH,

I really appreciate your point of view... they say what surfaces is like an iceberg... hiding 90% of what's below the surface. Some people don't even discuss stuff like this... and are afraid to debate even a little. If I disagree with you, I still respect your tenacity and willingness to stand by what you believe. Being "luke-warm" on an issue or simply riding the fence will only get you a sliver in a very uncomfortable place.
30 months ago: There is a really cool exercise called The Iceberg. I took a class once and we were introduced to it. You can use it to better develop relationship skills and get closer to people. In a positive way!

It was used in context to all of the things, the 90% hidden, that we don't know about our friends, lovers, etc. Having an awareness that we go through life really knowing very little about those in our lives can help you want to develop closer, stronger relationships. The Iceberg thing helps.
27 months ago: PH,

the link was supposed to be...
http://www.baby2see.com/development/firs...
27 months ago: "12 weeks - Vocal chords are complete, and the baby can and does sometimes cry silently. The brain is fully formed, and the baby can also feel pain. The fetus may even suck his thumb"

http://www.baby2see.com/development/firs...
30 months ago: PH - TB make a good point.

What is more crucial to follow, the law of the land or our conscience? Who or what ultimately decides what we do or don't do? What we embrace as truth or what we reject as error?
Honor by Choice
Honor by Choice
Waco, TX
30 months ago: Oh, here we go....

You know, I thank lady luck for the internet, scientific research, and proveable verifiable fact. Knowlege begats logic. Logic flies in the face of religion, and if you ignore proven fact and accept the Bible on blind faith, you can get into Heaven.
Every society since antiquity has had some story of a 'super person" who comes along and if you believe in him/her/it, you don't have to die, all the way. you got to go to some fantasy happy place, bla,bla,bla....
More killing and suffering has happened to the human race at the hands of differences in religion than any other thing ever. It's HORRIBLE the death annd destruction that has been done in the name of some religion or another, and the ignorance of it all is the power wielded by the "tyrant Du Jour", or whatever church ordained the slaughter. Organised Religion is Population Control, mind control, and source of information(propaganda) control.(how else could Bush have gotten re-elected? The gullible Right-wing "sheeple") We all know someone who REFUSES to watch any news source, except FOX news. They don't want to know if they might be wrong. They have been brainwashed. The very religion they support is f**king them in their collective a**es. Not to mention, that whatever you believe is dependant on where you were born, not how much truth there is in it. What a joke!
The Greek and Roman Gods had a good run. For Thousands of years, that was the Power. The along came the "Christians" and they had their time in the sun. Now, along comes Scientific Knowlege and Proven Fact. Watch the Fundies run! I think it's funny. I think it's funny to see grown men and women stand up and say that they believe that there is a Superdaddy that made this world about 6 to 12 thousand years ago, and that fossils are "God's little Jokes to test our faith" and that "Dinosaurs and man existed at the same time, I've seen the footprints". (Thank you, Sarah Palin, for that little bit of Truth, that You are an idiot) All the money, all the resources, all the effort, all the time spent on something that doesen't exist.....what a pathetic, useless waste.
30 months ago: Same lame arguments without substance.

More harm has been done and more wars fought based on godless philosophies than due to any form of theistic belief system in human history. Religion has had more than a fair share of of evil doing just the same.

Also, science has not disproved God in the least. As a matter of fact it affirms.

A provable verifiable fact is that nothing cannot create something. Chance has no creative power outside of myth.

Anyone who has blind faith in anything is a fool and there are many out there both religious and otherwise.

So much for "fundies" running.
30 months ago: Wars and hate, tell me you can speak about any religion, but when Jesus came into the world to give His life to redeem man, Satan declared an all out war.

How could a someone come into the world in peace, healed the sick and preached about love, which one of the ten commandments offends, you?

Christianity is the only religion with a future. Jesus is the only one that rose from the dead. Believing is Buddha, Muhammad is not going to give you eternal life. Satan will do everything to blind your eyes. He is trying to make a last effort to get as many as he can, to go to hell, why? Become he got is but kicked out of Heaven.
30 months ago: The real proof of Christianity is the spirit of God who is in a Christian that speaks to the person, through the Word, and in many other ways, I have written about this, but God only reveals Himself to those that search for him. He searches the Hearts of men and woman.

Christianity is a personal relationship which the Lord Jesus Christ.
Why do you use His name to swear? Why can't you say you Buddha you or use your friend the BUNNY.

Another thing is there is no name that upsets non-believers but the name of Jesus, it's a supernatural thing.
30 months ago: Sheik Ahmad Bahr, acting Speaker of the Palestinian Legislative Council, declared during a Friday sermon at a Sudan mosque that America and Israel will be annihilated and called upon Allah to kill Jews and Americans "to the very Last One". Following are excerpts from the sermon that took place last month, courtesy of MEMRI.

Kill all Jews and Americans, does this upset you? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7rls9eRK...

Islam: We Were Brought up to Hate - Nonie Darwish:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtJUemJmO4o&feature=related

"Kill The Jews!" Muslim Children Memorize and Recite Antisemitic Messages on Egyptian TV Channel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vtt8V25lG...

Muslim Imam: its ok to kill non-muslims!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64r-iWoTs...
Content Removed by Edward Lee
30 months ago: Buddha: The last hours

The Buddha died of old age, when he was eighty years old. The death was triggered by his body reaction to a dish of wild mushroom. He died peacefully and mindfully.

3.1 "And soon after the Blessed One had eaten the meal provided by Cunda, a dire sickness fell upon him, even dysentery, and he suffered sharp and deadly pains. But the Blessed One endured them mindfully, clearly understanding and unperturbed.

The guy was a man of peace just like mahatma gandhi, but was no God.
30 months ago: By electric cars, solar and LED, reduce dependency on oil. Stop sending all of the manufacturing to China, do more in America.

America is between a rock and a hard place. Pull up the controls before you crash and take us with you.
30 months ago: David Mcafee guy is a moron. He obviously does not know what he is talking about as made evident by the factual errors in his writing. And does he realize that several of the religions listed fall under the category of Christianity? He could have saved himself some time. Someone should probably suggest he do is homework next time.
Honor by Choice
Honor by Choice
Waco, TX
30 months ago: Thanks for proving my points so thouroughly, now everyone can see that the religious zealots must have slept through all their science classes. Now all the educated, sensible, intelligent people who are watching this thread can see just exactly what I'm talking about. They see the idiocy in statements made by "The Running Fundies" such as Huey Newton. Here is a quote from one of his dizzy replies.

"Also, science has not disproved God in the least. As a matter of fact it affirms"

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA, oh, my stomach hurts... Need I say more? Can you believe that while we live in a very enlightened age, nuclear and molecular physics be damned, astronomy and archeology go to hell, that there are live people, grown people, publicly educated people, who had every opportunity to research and compare theology and scientific fact for themselves, and yet they WANT to still believe in a "comfortable" mithology. Then the idiot goes on to say that More wars and suffering has been caused by godless entities than the other way around. What planet is HE from? How can anyone be so obtuse? After that, he states that "Anyone who believes in blind faith is a fool" and yet, he is one of them. I think he has Brain Adrift. Never in any debate I have ever had did anyone with an opposing view so thoroughly underline my point. Run, Newty, run, the Real World is coming to get you.
Ever notice how Fundies are like ostirches, except they stick their head in the bible? They even refer to the stupid book as proof of stuff. I think I know why. Do you know why? I think we all know why....
Because that's ALL THEY HAVE. A book, transcribed from scrolls written at least 2000 years ago in Aramaic and Hebrew, transcribed to Greek, then to Latin and English. Scrolls writen by people who knew NOTHING of science or medicine, genetics, astronomy, etc. Most of the fundies you meet don't even know the origin of their OWN RELIGION. Anybody want to know where and when the "Immaculate Conception" idea came about? The Dead Sea Scrolls, like I said, were written in Aramaic and Hebrew. When they were later translated into Greek, the word for "young girl" used to describe Mary didn't work in Greek. The closest word in Greek meant "virginal" and was translated as such. It was popular then to refer to any famous or popular young girl in Greek literature by this term. Later still, it was translated into Laten and English, and the "virgin" inferance was carried over. That's what happened. The Roman Catholic Church knows this, HAS ADMITTED HAVING RECORD OF IT and has quietly just swept it under the rug for 1600 years. Welcome to the POWER of the church. "Don't ask, don't tell" isnt all that original, is it? If you hold it in front of their face, they will still deny it, because they don't WANT to know. And how many versions of the "bible" are there? Who was the last King/pontif/religious nutcase to rewrite it his way? How many diferent "christian" type faiths are there? Gee, and they ALL think THEY are the ONE TRUE RELIGION. What a load of CRAP CRAP CRAP. I suppose it never occured to them that if they had been born in IRAN the would be believing in Islam and just as severely.
Read Edward Lee's entries. He's a patriot. He want's to save the planet, and protect the environment. He has good ideas about how to improve things related to the economy and our dependance on foreign oil. He and I are on the same page there. I wouldn't however, vote for him in any elected lawmaking capacity, as his judgement is far too influenced by Christian idealology. With so many people in this country having different beliefs, finding a happy medium is obvipously not something he's capable of. He could NEVER maintain the separation of church and state. because he dosen't WANT to. He goes on to say that "No name upsets the non-believers but the name of Jesus" It's not Jesus, dumb*ss, it's you idiots disrespecting others right to live without you trying to s
30 months ago: HBC,

You are almost as long-winded as me! Let's see if I can shorten this up a bit... Christians have one book. "Scientists" have many books all of which disagree... you may say the same about the Bible. But on this all Christians agree... Jesus Christ exists and is God... so God exists. However "scientists" do not agree over what outer "space" is... it's color... it's make up... and how it could exist. Yet they all claim that it is the most important "thing" out there. It keeps everything in perfect order. They believe it exists but literally they have "0" proof. Let me say that a little slower... they have no, none, nada, scientific proof of "it's existence!

They believe it is space.
I believe it is spirit.

If you can prove it exists by measurement, or any other observable means... you will have your "tangible" proof of God's existence.

The thing that "scientist" and Christians have in common is they both believe!

http://www.rantrave.com/Rant/Does-Space-...
30 months ago: NO! Not only no, but F*U*C*K no! Jesus Christ is, nor ever was GOD. They are two seperate entities and the Holy Spirit is a third. Read YOUR OWN F*U*C*K*I*N*G Bible.

As a major non-believer in the Christian doctrine, even I can read what the book you all profess to believe in says. Read it. Learn It. Don't let us non-believer be better at understanding what it says than you are.

I was raised to believe the Bible, I spent many hours, weeks, months being grilled and forced to memorize and learn what it says and about Jesus Christ and all the crap that goes with being a Christian. At no time did the Bible confuse how many of what "special entities" there were supposed to be and neither should you.

God
Jesus Christ
Holy Spirit

One, two and three. JC is and never was God. You can not be someone Son is you are that entitiy to start with. I don't care that you think they are all powerful, they can not be one and the same without there being a huge problem since to encourage others to believe in and worship "The Father" when you are "The Father" would be beating your own drum and people would not be able to comphrehend how you could be one and the same while claiming to be two seperate entities. Sounds confusing doesn't it. Would be if Jesus Christ was God.

Next thing I know you'll be trying to tell me God, JC and the HS were all the same entity.

As for your statement: "All Christians agree... Jesus Christ exists and is God" there are several million Christians who will flat out tell you you're full of s=h=i=t.

As for space being spirit, you are grasping at straws.

I apologize for my language, you really ticked me off, my choice of words was for effect.
30 months ago: Wow. Where did that come from? Doesn't seem like you. Doesn't suit you. eek! : (
30 months ago: SH,

No problem about the lingo... I think I may have wrote some of those expletives.. but this area of the Bible is one I am quite familiar with and appreciate the opportunity to answer any questions. I will start with a prophesy from the Old Testament and a reference to it's fulfillment in the New Testament...

1) The Old Testament ref. was given approximately 520 years before Christ; here God Almighty is talking to Zechariah about how He will be pierced...

Zechariah 12:10 "... they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son..."

2)The New Testament ref. was given by Luke (the physician) approximately 58 A.D. as a second book after the gospel of Luke... and how the Holy Spirit purchased the Church of God with His own blood.

Acts 20:28 "Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood."

That should be good for now... we don't have room for the hundred or so other references. Jesus is God Almighty... if you are a biblical Christian.
30 months ago: I apologize to you, Huey, for my outburst, especially after your comment on the "Culture of Victimhood" rant that seems to have disappeared, thank you for that. I try to be civil and hold my Sailor's tongue, just sometimes the "facts" getting muddled by evangelicals really trips my bucket and any pent up frustration must come out. Being a non-believer, listening to supposed believers say things that just aren't in the Bible, really gets my goat after awhile and that particular set of facts is one I can't let slide. I'll try to behave myself, just know that there is a monster hiding within me that must be kept under tight leash or he will strike out at all who offend him. Not that I'm different from anyone else, we all have our monsters, mine just uses a coarser version of the English language due to it's direct and well understood meanings.
30 months ago: Hi Six - No worries. We all lose it from time to time.

I love the fact that you continue to look up and reference the scriptures. That's way cool. Don't let anything that happens here disrupt that.
30 months ago: Six,

If we are talking Christianity we are going by it's bible... God is ONE.
"Baptize them in the name (not names) of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit." Matthew 28:19

"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory." 1Timothy 3:16

Jesus said: "I and my father are one." John 10:30
30 months ago: HC I wouldn't however, vote for him in any elected lawmaking capacity, as his judgment is far too influenced by Christian ideology. With so many people in this country having different beliefs, finding a happy medium is obviously not something he's capable of. He could NEVER maintain the separation of church and state.

I disagree with that statement. You do not excel in business for 40 years, without finding a happy medium. Christian is an enhancer in my case. I was a problem solver before I was a Christian, the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.
Honor by Choice
Honor by Choice
Waco, TX
30 months ago: Truthwarey just proved he hasn't got a clue. I may, however, be wrong about Edward Lee if elected. I somehow sense that he would legislate fairly, in spite of his personal religious convictions out of respect for other's differing cultures. I understand that he doesn't need confirmation from me, I'm just being honest. Really, the only problem I have with any religion or culture is when it negatively affects others who don't subscribe, but must endure it's effects due to violence, legislation, or agenda, or just plain being nosey. He is definately NOT the type I ranted about yesterday. I applaude his accomplishments, and his contribution to society. After reading his background, I feel I would support him in any social endevor.
30 months ago: HBC,

Nice dodge... in other words you can't provide "scientific" evidence for the make-up of space? There is a distance between particles of matter... some millions of light years in cases... but what is it? If it is "nothing" then all matter must be in contact with all other matter. Some people don't think it matters. However "scientists" can only tell you what they "believe" and it differs from others in the same field. What do you believe?
Honor by Choice
Honor by Choice
Waco, TX
30 months ago: Nicer Stupidbaker. I suppose you never heard of "the vaccume of space". Talking to you is like talking to a parrot, who just keeps saying the same thing over and over with no concept of meaning gathered from your reply. I'm fair certain (I made straight A's in school) that there is more evidence of the contents of our universe on NOVA that you will ever find for your self-contradicting book. Not that you care.
I can't fathom the depth of the obtusness you live in. If it wasn't for the obvious entertainment value( I have several of my Canadian friends reading all this right now, is such a hoot) actually finding someone who validates everything we think about Fundies, and so easy to provoke as well, i would have gon to bed hours ago. It's like talking to PeeWee Herman's Avatar, trying to justify the next child he's going to molest at church the next day. Nobody is so vocal about his cruch of a religion unless he's hiding something. Kind of like the guy who is loudly anti-gay, but hasn't come out of the closet yet....
30 months ago: HBC,

Yea, I heard of vacuum of space.. I am not debating matter... and the guys that went on from school want to know what makes up the actual "distance" between matter particles, stars, planets, moons etc... and that is what I said they disagree on. They know it is there... they know it is real... they just don't know what it is. Do you? Please do tell.

What is the area, canvas, or space that exists between matter. Because it is only "practically" nothing... but it exists... so it must be something.
Honor by Choice
Honor by Choice
Waco, TX
Content Removed by Honor by Choice
30 months ago: Apology excepted, I am the Canadian Business Development Rep for a very advanced LED lighting for an American company. www.newtekled.com
30 months ago: Like talking to a fence post.
Frederick
Frederick
Canada
30 months ago: I would love to see what the world would look like if people of other religions were running things in the Western world. We don't know do we.
30 months ago: Frederick,

Mmmm, I don't know... look at Iraq.
30 months ago: Or did you mean Scientology?
30 months ago: Did somebody say Scientology? It isn't based on belief, you know. Instead it is a body of information and actions to do with that information.
30 months ago: Action based on information... isn't that what belief is?
30 months ago: sixholdens, I personally have a problem with using curse words, in general.
having a slip of the tongue is one thing, but writing it is premeditated.

You lose respect and creditability, "he that controls his spirit is greater then one that takes a city" In addition you are wrong, in stating that Jesus is not God, I wrote a chapter on the Trinity.
30 months ago: If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father - Because I and the Father are One, John 10:30: Or, if ye had properly examined the intention and design of the law, ye would have been convinced that it referred to me; and that all that I have done and instituted was according to the design and intention of the Father, as expressed in that law.

And now we see that God The Father, God the Son, and God The Holy Spirit are one but their work is different


• God the Father is in charge of the operations.
• Jesus God the Son is in charge of the administrations.
• God the Holy Spirit is in charge of the manifestations.

So when we pray we must go in the Spirit, through the Son Jesus, to the Father. The Holy Spirit is the power of the Godhead.

Mica 3:8: But I am full of power by the Spirit of Jehovah, and justice, and might.

Luke 1:35: And the angel answered and said to her, The Holy Spirit shall come on you, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow you.

Isaiah 59:19: So they shall fear the name of Jehovah from the west, and His glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of Jehovah shall make him flee.

The word in Hebrew for one is achad, which is used in:

Genesis 1:5: And God called the light, Day. And He called the darkness, Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

We see here that both evening and morning is called one day and in Genesis 2:24: again that both man and woman using the Hebrew word achad becomes one.

Genesis 2:24: Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave to his wife and they shall be one flesh.

The in Deuteronomy 6:4: the same Hebrew Echad is used.

Deuteronomy 6:4: Hear, O, Israel. Jehovah our God is one Jehovah.

God the Holy Spirit cannot be seen
God the Father cannot be seen with out dying
God the Son can be seen

Galatians 4:4: The Father sends the Son
John 3:16: The Father Sends the Son to die for our sins
John 14:26: The Farther sends the Spirit
John 8:28: The Son speaks on behalf of the Father
John 16:13: The Spirit speaks on behalf of Jesus
John 3:35; 5:20; 14:31: The Father loves the Son, and the Son loves the Father
John 17:1,4-5: The father and the Son glorify one another.
John 16:14: The Spirit glorifies Jesus the Son
1 John 2:1: The Son is an Advocate for us with the Father
John 14:16, 26 Jesus the Son sent the Holy Spirit.
2 John 3: Jesus is not the Father, but the Son of the Father
30 months ago: Hi Edward,

I think that we all agree on what the Bible says (about Jesus being God)... and that there is no disputing that. It seems we at times need more information and a chance to see things from other than a prescribed textbook answer. I know you believe that Jesus is God.. as stated in John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." (Jesus being the Word)...

However, the question that needs to be answered is... When are we going to get around to calling Jesus (the Son) ...Wonderful Counselor (the Holy Spirit) ...and Everlasting Father (God the Father)? Trinity... is not in the Bible, but One God manifesting Himself and revealing Himself in three separate ways is.

This is one of the main reason why Muslims do not accept the gospel... they are mono-theists (having one god), not poly-theists (multiple gods)... by dividing God you have three persons, or three individuals, or three gods... it makes no difference to them... a type of "god-family" but God said there is none like Him about 10 times in the 40's of Isaiah ...He knows "not any"... Isaiah 44:8

Fear not, nor be afraid; have I not told you from of old and declared it? And you are my witnesses! Is there a God besides me? There is no Rock; I know not any."

Isaiah 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

I like the statement of Faith (below) that sums up my thoughts though it is not a ref. in the Bible though in principle I think it is accurate. My attempt here is not to be right, rather to shed light on scriptures that may have been overlooked.

There is one and only one living and true God. He is an intelligent, spiritual, and personal Being, the Creator, Redeemer, Preserver, and Ruler of the universe. God is infinite in holiness and all other perfections. God is all powerful and all knowing; and His perfect knowledge extends to all things, past, present, and future, including the future decisions of His free creatures. To Him we owe the highest love, reverence, and obedience. The eternal triune God reveals Himself to us as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, with distinct personal attributes, but without division of nature, essence, or being.

If you would like to exchange notes off-line until we come to an understanding or see that it may be a matter of semantics, I would be willing. Thanks for your insight and your diligence in study.

God Bless, Brother.
30 months ago: Galatians 4:4: The Father sends the Son, [not the Fathers goes as the Son, so He must be sending another entity]
John 3:16: The Father Sends the Son to die for our sins, [see above]
John 14:26: The Farther sends the Spirit, [The Father sends the Spirit, not goes as the Spirit so He is "again", sending another entity]
John 8:28: The Son speaks on behalf of the Father, [not the Father speaks for himself but His Son speaks for Him, two entities]
John 16:13: The Spirit speaks on behalf of Jesus, [the Spirit speaks, entity #1, on behalf of Jesus, entity #2]
John 3:35; 5:20; 14:31: The Father loves the Son, and the Son loves the Father, [DUH! if they were the same they would be guilty of self love, which if memory serves me is a sin]
John 17:1,4-5: The father and the Son glorify one another. [you can't glorify another entity if you are it, two entities]
John 16:14: The Spirit glorifies Jesus the Son, [two entities]
1 John 2:1: The Son is an Advocate for us with the Father, [must be two seperate entities in order to validate one entity being an Advocate for us to another entity]
John 14:16, 26 Jesus the Son sent the Holy Spirit. [can't be sending one entity while you are it, must be two entities to send one while remaining the other]
2 John 3: Jesus is not the Father, but the Son of the Father, [TADAAAAAA! Must be two entities for one to be the son of the other]

Total count: three entities, separate but not equal.

You have proved nothing. For all my life I have heard "He sent his only begotten son to save us from our sins." You can not "send" yourself as a redeemer while demanding that those who wish to believe in the salvation being offered must believe in and worship only your father, by professing a personal belief that he sent his son to die for your sins. It makes a mockery of all those who have been baptized in Jesus' name if Jesus is God and God is Jesus, or as you have posted, one in the same and actually as you have stated, three in one.

There is no amount of scripture, taken out of context that will convince me that the Bible says that God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one and the same. I was taught that they are three beings/entities and what I read and still read tells me they are three separate entities and nothing will change that.

It is one of the reasons I reject Christianity as a religion, the fact that no one can agree to what the Bible says. Everyone has to interpret it differently to fit their version of what is correct and what it takes to be "saved". Makes for a lot of BS and even more misinformation.

God - top dog of all
Jesus Christ - his son, born of woman, sent to die for mankind's sins
Holy Spirit - kind of like an angel, does Gods bidding but is not part of him, has free will of its own

That's how the Bible lays it out and that is what I was taught, not this combined-into-one-entity that you are trying to push. Freud would love to analyze an entity that thought he was three.
30 months ago: SH,

Jesus said God is Spirit and those who worship Him must worship Him in Spirit and Truth. John 4:24

If Spirit has a substance... like water lets say...
One should not get all bent out of shape and reject the idea of water because one said it was ice, another said it was water, and yet another said it was steam... and then an intelligent sort said it was a Trinity of solid, liquid, and gas.

You are breathing in some water right now and are not drowned.

The "gaseous" Holy Spirit of God (the substance) that holds all creation together; revealed His back (not face) in a Spirit-Body as the Father to Moses on Horeb (like liquid) and to Jacob in a vision on His throne; and became solid in the flesh of Jesus Christ so we could touch Him... beat and kill Him... at no time did any existing in a different form cease to be GOD... they just revealed and manifested themselves for different purposes and positions God - King - Servant so we could experience Him.

So take a deep breath... have a drink of water... and put some ice on your head.
30 months ago: SH,

What if I called you water? Really muddy water... up to 78% water!

I ask theologians this question: What "form" did Jesus have before He took on the "flesh form?" I mean from ETERNITY past...

"Although he existed in the form of God and equal with God, he did not take advantage of this equality." Philippians 2:6

"For verily he took not on [him the nature of] angels; but he took on [him] the seed of Abraham." Hebrews 2:16

...so for these last moments in time (perspective from eternity) GOD took on himself the form/nature of a man of the linage of Abraham... to reveal Himself. Jesus said:

"Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works." John 14:10

The very "WHO" in Jesus is the Father... does God talk to Himself? For our sake, I believe He does... Jesus also said...

"...(Father) I know that you always hear me, but I have said this for the sake of the crowd standing here, so that they may believe that you sent me." John 11:42
30 months ago: "Although he existed in the form of God and equal with God, he did not take advantage of this equality." Philippians 2:6

This does not mean he is God, it means he is like God in form and equal in power or other attributes.

"For verily he took not on [him the nature of] angels; but he took on [him] the seed of Abraham." Hebrews 2:16

"the seed of Abraham", being the descendants, or the Jewish tribe, nothing about Him being God, Jesus and the HS, just that he assumed the form of the "seed of Abraham". Something the Bible does cover, that God can and does assume "human" form and walk among us, or did. (I'm speaking from the point of view that that is what the Bible says, that not I believe it.)

...so for these last moments in time (perspective from eternity) GOD took on himself the form/nature of a man of the linage of Abraham... to reveal Himself. Jesus said:

"Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works." John 14:10

The very "WHO" in Jesus is the Father... does God talk to Himself? For our sake, I believe He does... Jesus also said...

"...(Father) I know that you always hear me, but I have said this for the sake of the crowd standing here, so that they may believe that you sent me." John 11:42

Being possessed by an entity does not make you that entity, you may be under its control and act like it wants you to, but you will not be it. As Jesus says in your last quote, His Father can always hear him but those outside His body cannot due to it being an internal type of possession that the possessor desires to keep secret, doesn't mean they are the same entity.

My DNA is in my descendants and they posses some of my characteristics, but it doesn't make them me, the reverse can also be said of them in me, since we share those attributes. I am in my descendants and they are in me, still doesn't make them me or me them, same with God, Jesus and the HS, separate entities.

What I don't understand is this desire to combine these three entities into one. Why do you people want to rewrite the Bible again? Isn't it good enough for you already? I can see it now:
instead of "God sent His only begotten Son to die on the cross for mankind's sins", it will now have to read "God transformed into this dude named Jesus, who pretended to be His own Son and tricked everyone into killing Himself on a cross". After that, how are you ever going to convince a little child that God can never die? Their bunny did, the cat did, and after the dog got run over it did too, and none of them ever came back to life. With God dead, there is no entity to bring Jesus back to life once he dies on the cross and don't give me that crap about Him being able to resurrect himself from being dead, if you or any entity is dead, it's dead, unless of course there is another all powerful entity out there that is really running the show, one that would put your puny God to shame.

For Christianity to work there HAS to be THREE separate and somewhat equal entities with God being at the top, then Jesus and then the Holy Spirit. They can all be from the same place, but they can not be the same entity otherwise Jesus would be calling out to himself about being forsaken instead of being rescued from dying on the cross, if a person believed that Jesus was actually God, he would have to think that this is one stupid guy, calling out to himself to make everyone think his own father had abandoned him instead of just removing himself from the situation.

The only exception to this would be a mistranslation and the Holy Spirit is actually supposed to be God in another form, then there would only be two entities. Either way there has to be an actual Father and a Son in the familial sense to make the whole thing believable, even on faith.

Now do you get an inkling of why I don't
30 months ago: I put the ice in my drink where it belongs.
30 months ago: SH,

This Almighty God is unrestricted in anyway to reveal Himself... Jesus' closest disciple John wrote of Jesus in the "Revelation of Jesus Christ" the last book in the Bible...

"Behold, he comes with clouds; and every eye shall see Him, and they also which pierced Him: and all kindreds of the earth shall morn because of Him. Even so, Amen. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, says the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty...

...And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. And He laid His right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am He that lives, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death." Revelation 1:7-8, 17-18

John said Jesus was God Almighty also in John 1:1...

I appreciate your patience and your opinion... I am just trying to give more info... and not just trying to be a pain in the lower back or upper leg.
30 months ago: I agree. Thank you.
30 months ago: The story falls apart if there is no actual direct descendant of God. Pretending to be someone else just so someone can touch them doesn't work, especially if the intent is for others to kill the person you are pretending to be so you can claim to have been forsaken by your father.

The longer you try to prove that there is only one entity, the more unbelievable the whole Christian Religion's basic tenants become to me.

God
God created everything from nothing.
God sent the Holy Spirit to do His bidding on earth.
God sent His Son to die for mankind's sins.
God resurrected His Son to dwell in heaven with God.
God wants us to believe in Him and His Son and worship Him because He sacrificed His only Son for us.

Who in their right mind would believe there was any sincerity in what God did if it was all a lie to start with?

God lied about begetting a Son, He lied about who was on the cross, He made up a story about a spirit helper that does His bidding, and that's YOUR version if you stick with the ONE entity idea.

It's a myth with many contradictions and the longer you try to convince me, the deeper the hole you dig for yourselves.
30 months ago: If God was restricted to only a body of flesh... you would be right.
30 months ago: SH,

We might not be able to understand it all but Jesus did say:

"I and my Father are one." John 10:30
30 months ago: Truthbrary, If Spirit has a substance... like water lets say...
One should not get all bent out of shape and reject the idea of water because one said it was ice, another said it was water, and yet another said it was steam... and then an intelligent sort said it was a Trinity of solid, liquid, and gas.

That is a very good and simple analogy of the Trinity, which is the most difficult thing about God to understand even for most Christians. The Word tells us "the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom" some of us pretend to be smarter than Him and call his Scripture inconsistent, when it is us that is the fools, "You must have the faith of a child"

THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD, THREE SEPARATE FUNCTIONS. just as Truthbrary explained so very well.

One good thing about this debate is that when you seek the Lord with all of your heart you will find Him. I pray that it will be so.


The word Elohim is the plural word for God.

Psalm 45:7: You love righteousness, and hate wickedness; therefore God, Your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness above your fellows.

See this verse explained in the notes at Hebrew 1:9: where it is applied to the Messiah. The word "God" is rendered in the margin "O God"; "O God, thy God, hath anointed thee," etc. According to this construction, the thought would be carried on which is suggested in Psalm 45:6: of a direct address to the Messiah as God. This construction is not necessary, but it is the most obvious one. The Messiah - the Lord Jesus - though he is described as God himself (John 1:1: et al.), yet addresses God as "his" God, John 20:17: As Mediator, as appearing in human form, as commissioned to perform the work of redemption, and to subdue the world to the divine authority, it was proper thus to address his Father as "his" God, and to, acknowledge Him as the source of all authority and law. This remarkable chapter in Genesis is quite clear that Abram saw 3 men but addressed them as one.
30 months ago: Why did God make it so difficult to understand? Simply put, because He is God, I am nothing, but I have to say, it was a brilliant idea.

It was like when I had my company, Solv-X inventions Ltd. I was

* The Owner and Boss
* The Inventor, engineer
* The Sales manager
30 months ago: Exactly!
30 months ago: And still you refer to that book as your only proof.

Like I said, how can anyone believe the story when you start changing the characters from three to one as you see fit? Without a father and a son as two separate entities, the entire Christian religion is built upon lies and does not work. One of the most important tenants is that you must believe that Jesus Christ was the son of God. Not that he was God pretending to be his son, but his actual blood descendant, born of a virgin human woman and that he was forsaken by his father to die on a cross. Without that, the religion is nothing but a sham.

Nothing you can quote from the Bible will convince me that the original story did not began with three entities and somewhere between then and now, it has been corrupted to this unbelievable tale of one entity pretending to be his own son and running around as a spirit.

Don't forget, I don't believe the whole all powerful deity and his son thing anyway, the whole thing smacks of one-up-man-ship and do-as-I-say, not-as-I-do. All religions demand that you not believe in another one or bad things will happen to you, some while you're still alive but most after your dead, that way the religion can keep you on the hook for years and years and if you consider another religion, there are always multitudes of reasons why the other one isn't better and why the other religion is a false one.

Since your side of this discussion is stuck with nothing but quotes from the Bible that have been written and re-written to suit whoever had the power and wanted it to say whatever they needed it to say at that time and you insist on trying to use those quotes out of context and with far-fetched interpretations of them, I see little purpose in continuing this debate and will bid you adieu.
30 months ago: "you must believe that Jesus Christ was the son of God" I agree...

OK time for a Greek lesson.

Jesus is only referred to as "Huios" son (5207 Strongs),
...never "teknon" child (5043 Strongs).

Huios; is reserved for "the son of God" not used for believers (children of God)
..primarily signifies the relation of offspring to the parent, and not simply the birth as indicated by "Teknon"

To break it down a bit if you had offspring they would be your "child" (Teknon)
If you had a student or college that bore your resemblance in character and teachings you could call them your "son" (Huios)

Jesus is never referred to as God's "child" (Teknon) "genetic" offspring
Jesus is only referred to as God's "son" (Huios) manifested expression

A believer is never referred to as God's "son" (Huios) manifested expression
A believer is only referred to as God's "child" (Teknon) "genetic" offspring

"you must believe that Jesus Christ was the son [(Huios) manifested expression] of God"

Cool Huh?
30 months ago: The above definition was given by: Spiros Zodhiates, Th.D
30 months ago: Six, if I may intervene,You said "Since your side of this discussion is stuck with nothing but quotes from the Bible that have been written and re-written to suit whoever had the power and wanted it to say whatever they needed it to say at that time and you insist on trying to use those quotes out of context and with far-fetched interpretations of them"

The Bible is the Word of God, and every committed Christian has proved it to be so.

The Bible was written by the Jewish men of God, like Moses, Abraham, Isaiah and the like, inspired by God the Holy Spirit, the same way some one may instantaneously write a song (except more pronounced).

If the original text was not in the Hebrew language, it's not an authentic Word of God, the different translations are from the original text, and is simplified so that the translation would be simpler for those that read it. there is even a translation in pigeon English.

The best translation in my view is the New King James, it is the closest to the Hebrew, but easier to understand than the King James in old English, for the 21first century.

By the way "God is not a man that He should lie" I have proved that quote, and I have also proved that all men are liars.
30 months ago: Ed,

Good, point.

When someone says that all you have is the bible... well, it is the most established writ of ancient history. Other works of it's vintage yield only a few hundred manuscripts at best... the Bible has over 10,000 independent scripts to compare against. What we hold in our hand in the Bible is and incredible find of history!
30 months ago: Ed, should I repeat myself to you again? YOU HAVE PROVED NOTHING! FAITH, all you have is FAITH, that the Bible is the word of God. FAITH, nothing but faith. No proof.

No matter how long ago, how ancient the text, how meticulous the method used to copy the original text, how many copies were destroyed because one tiny letter was malformed, no matter how many millions of poor fools were suckered into believing the lie, billions of dollars of house payments donated to a religious belief and the house lost, no matter how many posts to RR you may create, all you have is faith that the story is true.

And along comes this new version that completely discredits the entire Christian version of the Bible. Oh I know it's not really new, but new enough for me to say that it is not the original version from 2000 years ago.

Even the Jews can't agree on what version to support, what version is the "real" version to follow, which just gives more reasons to doubt every version.

You have not proved anything about God beyond that you believe Him to be real and that He has multiple personalities.
30 months ago: Hey six,

We all have faith, we have faith in Jesus Christ... and if I'm hearing you right you have faith in nothing.
30 months ago: Faith in nothing you have put all yours into, the Bible, a God and the story the Bible tells.
30 months ago: Six,

My life has been changed. Some mock me and say "Did you find Jesus?" Well, He wasn't lost... I was. He found me as less than a piece of garbage... those who knew me would attest. Even my family thought my "experience with God" would be short lived. People always ask the wrong questions.. like "What made you give your life to Jesus? When it should be... "Why did you stay with Him?"

Answer is simple... I am not lonely anymore.
30 months ago: You do realize that you are going to be left behind, don't you?
30 months ago: If there is an afterlife, it won't be what you think it is going to be and I will not be left any more behind than you will. You nor any of the other religious adherents don't have that power, nor can you foresee the future any better than you have analyzed the past.
Content Removed by Edward Lee
30 months ago: Six, this is for you,www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUQYJ77qa50
30 months ago: So you're telling me that "grandma's church from way back then" was BS? That what she believed and the religion she worshiped was not valid? That because it was "way back then" that her religion was false?

That's what the video said.

Too bad my grandparents, all four of them, were Christians. You just invalidated your entire religion, again.

Be careful what you have me watch and listen to. Sometimes the message is not what you think it is.
30 months ago: Hey Ed,

Loved the vid!
30 months ago: So your grandparents were Christians, did you insult there believes as well, or something just made you bitter? I know you said that things are not so good for you, are you blaming God?
30 months ago: Ed, it's your video that is telling me that "grandma's church from way back then" was BS? That what she (grandma) believed and the religion she worshiped was not valid? That because it was "way back then" that her religion was false?

You really need to watch and really listen to what that woman was saying. She specifically stated that what grandma believed was wrong.

And since my grandparents were Christian's, she stated that my grandparents believed the wrong thing. YOUR VIDEO. Not anything I ever said.

Watch your video again and again and again until you hear what she says in English. Then come back here and apologize to me and you can tell that woman in the video she owes a lot of grandma's an apology.

I didn't insult their beliefs (my grandparents) in the way your video does because I never expressed anything about them (their beliefs) to them before their deaths.

Things that are not perfect in my life have nothing to do with religion and I can't blame something that doesn't exist, that is something you would do since you believe in a God.
30 months ago: Six,

What I'm getting is that the message is for today and relevant. No malice.
30 months ago: Well I listened to the video again, what she is saying is don't put your trust in your grandma's church from why back when, or any pastor on TV, but but your trust in Jesus.

Some think that if they have trouble they could go a pastor even their grandma. but what she is saying is to go directly to Jesus.
30 months ago: Listen again Ed.

"No I'm not talk'in some punk junk like your grammas' church from way back when"

What this means is that "grandmas'" religion was garbage according to her (the rapper) and her church. That the religion my (or your) grandma followed and believed in all her life was "punk junk". Doesn't matter to her (the rapper) what it was, because it isn't the exact same as the one she is pushing as the one and only true way, it is nothing and false.

Basically you are trying to take her words and give them a different meaning so that they will fit with your idea of what she is saying. It's not your or my fault that she didn't think what she was saying through, she was just trying to make it sound good and be easy to say.

Gramma's Church put(s) its faith in Jesus, it was/is a Christian Church, those who attend are Christians and follow the same Bible as you profess yet here you are touting a video that says that Grammas' Church is false and misleading.

My Grammas' Church didn't talk no "punk junk" at least not to her and the rest of my Christian relatives that still attend that church.

All you've managed to do is insult my grandma and all those who attend her church. You have stepped over the line.
30 months ago: Six,

If Grammas' Church didn't talk no punk junk... then why aren't you following?
You called all Churches, that includes hers too... a lot worse than that....

Maybe you could honor your Grandma buy your adherence, and respect.
30 months ago: Please, refresh my memory of what I may have called churches since you seem to think it was so horrible.

You miss my point of why I'm calling Ed and his video to task.

What you are saying is that in order to honor my grandma and show her respect I have to also believe what she did. Not going to happen that way. She also believed that women are subservient to men and a few other out dated belief systems, some quite racial, went with her age group like marrying women off shortly after puberty to older men. There is no reason for me to betray my own beliefs in some futile effort to appease your twisted sense of how to show respect for my elders, they are all dead from old age and I showed them plenty of respect while they were living without having to pretend that I believed the myth.
30 months ago: Six,

Good point. It could be in the same fashion that this rapper was also meaning no disrespect by disagreeing with certain "old religious" views putting it in "street" terms just to make a catchy rhyme.
30 months ago: In the same sentence she says don't go to TV preachers, you know the best source for the truth is the Bible, I would suggest the New King James, I know you have a Bible.

I will admit she should have made in clearer or just left it out, but don't get hung up on it.

You are looking for loop holes all the time, you would have made a good lawyer, you would wear-out your opponent, but you can't wear me out, because the truth is on my side, and I know that you are on the edge.
30 months ago: Six said, Gramma's Church put(s) its faith in Jesus, it was/is a Christian Church, those who attend are Christians and follow the same Bible as you profess yet here you are touting a video that says that Grammas' Church is false and misleading.

I am over joyed in the way you have come to your Gramma's church, you would only come to their defense if you believed that they and the church were credible. I think we are make some headway.
30 months ago: Ed, you are foolish to think that you have made any headway into changing my beliefs.

I will not stand by while you tout your version of Christianity while defaming the version my grandma practiced, which you have no clue of since you and that rapper are so wrapped up in your own version of what you think is right that you have no room in your narrow version of Christianity to consider that someone else might have it figured out better than you without you having to lead them by the hand.

See the first sentence and remember that what is between it and this is why I have no use for Christianity.

Your arrogance is insulting my sensibilities.
30 months ago: Ed and TB,

God knows Sixer's heart.

He's a good man and I can understand why he feels the way he does about the church. There are quite a few folks that feel that way. Church history and many so-called "Christians" have done considerable damage to the image of Christ and His Church.

Think about what you are doing and how you are doing it and then think about how the Lord Himself would handle it if He were communicating to Six or anyone else for that matter. It's not about winning any argument.

It's his life and his decision. Give him credit for being able to sort this out for himself. It ain't over until it's over.

Peace.
30 months ago: HN,

Good word.
30 months ago: Six, that is what I have been saying, you cannot put your faith in anyone but Jesus.

Did your Grandma, die a happy person? Unless you have a heart for God, everything about Him will be foolishness. My brother is the same way. I will leave this with you, if or when you search and need the Lord with all of your heart, He will be found by you.
30 months ago: The law of the LORD is perfect. It gives us new strength. The laws of the LORD can be trusted. They make childish people wise. The rules of the LORD are right. They give joy to our hearts.

The commands of the LORD shine brightly. They give light to our minds. The law that brings respect for the LORD is pure. It lasts forever. The directions the LORD gives are true. All of them are completely right. hey are more priceless than gold.

They have greater value than huge amounts of pure gold. They are sweeter than honey that is taken from the honeycomb. I am warned by them. When I obey them, I am greatly rewarded.

30 months ago: Ed, you are so deep in the hole that all you are doing is moving the dirt from under your feet to a place so far above your head that even you can't see light from reality shining to guide you out.

Thanks Huey, always a bit of reason in what you say. Maybe someday, Ed will have half your wisdom and a tenth of your understanding.
30 months ago: Everybody has an opinion so why should it upset me if this fellow doesn't like Christianity? It is his loss not mine. Chances are practicing Christians that he runs into will continue to show him the godly love that Jesus commanded his disciples that they should demonstrate. My guess is that his problem is more with committing himself to a religion that asks you to be good for goodness sake. This might be more than he is willing to do and it troubles him so rather than ignore it he disparages what might have been his Faith had he himself had faith. Interesting!
30 months ago: DJ, I'm going to assume you are talking about me, but if not, close enough.

The practicing Christians that I run into, and that would be a bunch, show me about as much regard as the next person, very little to none beyond a casual greeting. Those that express a deeper interest soon learn that I'm as nice a guy as any they've met.

As for my "problem" with committing to what you say is a religion that asks me to be good for goodness sake, you forget, I don't have to commit to a religion to be good for the sake of being good. Especially since religion has absolutely nothing to do with being a good person. Religion offers no guidelines, no rules, no benefits, that can not be obtained in the free world, all without the need to swear fealty to some deity and his son and contribute to some bottomless coffer.
30 months ago: Mr. Six Holden? No sir I most certainly was not referring to you. I refer to the man in the link posted in this rant. See the link once again posted below.

http://davidgmcafee.wordpress.com/2010/0...

Also I don't think my comment is close enough either. You are an objective and conscientious protestor of organized religion. That much you have made clear. Read what is on the link. The guy I refer to has got a different angle. He is ready to throw the baby out with the bath water.

As for your comment. I happen to like the idea that there is an all knowing, all wise and all powerful Creator that made me with a noble and loving purpose and that I was made with the free will to make up my own mind as to what way I choose to conduct my life. I also am ecstatic about the fact that he provided a back up plan for me incase I screw up and change my mind, etc.

If you are happy with the choices you have made in this life and hope for no more, than good for you, live life and be merry. I too am comfortable with the choice I've made in my life and choose to live my life and be merry. There is no difference between you and I really other than my Christian belief that allows me to hope for a life beyond this one which I so dearly relish and perhaps to some like you it might be silly to hope in such a simplistic and unrealistic hope but to others like me not only does it not hurt to have this faith but it is our blessed hope.

The gentleman from the link sounded vindictive, as if he had somehow been slighted and now need to recompense in kind. This is not the case with you so again I most certainly was not referring to you.
30 months ago: We're square. I guess I was feeling a bit under the gun and your comments touched a nerve.

Oh I hope for more, just not going to go back down the religious road to find it. Would love to be a being of conscious energy that could travel the stars. But that isn't what religion is about and not what I feel is the end result after death of the body. Spending my life hoping to fulfill the varied requirements that no religious group can settle upon to then spend eternity doing nothing realistic just doesn't fulfill my minds desires.

Earlier someone claimed that Heaven's streets were paved with gold. What a useless thing to have. Gold paved streets for beings who have no need of streets, much less those paved in gold, yes I get the implication that wealth is not something needed in Heaven, but neither are streets. There are many other claims about Heaven that weak minded people grasp at because their life here on Earth is harder than they think it should be, claims about rewards for serving an all powerful being while still on Earth. They are all dreams made up of smoke to me, trinkets to draw in those who can't find their own way in life.

I don't follow nor support McAfee, even though the name is in my families tree, not him, just the surname.
30 months ago: I see. I'm glad we are square. One side note, I would not expect someone who protests organized religion, especially an agnostic such as yourself to concede even a remote possibility of truth to any of the beliefs he eschews. It would seem counterintuitive and unnatural, which is why my original comment did not address unbelief as you express but instead I addressed a possible explanation for MacAfee's anger.

Because doubt is a natural process of intelligence and free thought but hatred is a product of an internal struggle. Again while you have expressed strong emotion and conviction I have yet to detect hate in your words. I respect that. I suspect that I would feel very comfortable discussing long term the weighty matters of eternity with you with out fear of being insulted, denigrated or put down, all which are indicative of hateful speech.

One other side note regarding Mr. MacAfee and then I think I'll let it go is that he bunches three main branches of religion together whose origins are very different despite it's practitioners claim to a common deity and saints and heroes. That is a surefire way leading to stereotyping and erroneous blanket statements.
30 months ago: DJ,

What... "three main branches of religion" are you referring to?
30 months ago: Sorry, I should clarify. While Islam, Mormonism, Jehovah Witnesses are all technically spin-offs from the main Christian grouping, all of them claim divine authority to be the one last message of their deity to humanity. They all also claim that their religion and deity is the same as the rest of Christianity while remaining doctrinally almost completely unique from their origin under a Christian heading.

None of them are remotely Christian anymore in doctrine than they are in practice but it seems that the author from the website lumped them together along with Christianity as just marginally different. The only exception to his top 5 list being Scientology which claims no Christian roots but instead claims to be a science, which it tried to pass itself off as initially until it was fully discredited as such.

As I said before I don't have a problem with a persons doubts. Doubts are part of the human's quest for knowledge. But David in this link gave very little credible proof to support his claims about these religions and also did little to point out the very real distinctions that separate 4 of his top 5 list as actual distinct religions. This is important because otherwise it seems as if he is just pointing out Christianity in it's various manifestations in his top 5 list. A surefire indication that his is not doubt but out right baseless insults for the sake of a personal vendetta.
30 months ago: DJ,

How do you figure Islam is a spin-off of Christianity?
30 months ago: Their prophet got his ideas for his religion from Christianity and its own root faith (Judaism). Islam does not deny the authority of Jesus as a messenger from God nor do they denounce any of Christianity's prophets or core beliefs.

What they do instead is ignore main tenants of Christian doctrine by calling them corrupted, not invalid just corrupted by man (without supporting those accusations.) then they supplant their own radically different teachings as authoritative from the God of Abraham by no other proof than to take Mohammed at his word based upon a cave vision.

Without Christianity much like Mormonism and Jehovah witnesses, Islam would not exist. I know it's not a popular idea but it is an inevitable and logical conclusion based upon the observable facts that Islam was built upon an already established hierarchy developed not just by Judaism but particularly Christianity.

Mormonism to a lesser degree has done the same thing. They have built an entirely different religion other than Christianity based upon the same characters and story line. They still deny it is a separate religion but much like Islam claim that it is the revealed will of God sent to cleanse the old corrupted religion (Christianity) and that it is now the final message for mankind.

That is not only what Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses do but it is the exact message of Islam, that prior to Mohammed, Christ brought the revealed will of God to the world but that humans corrupted his message which is why God had to send one last prophet (Mohamed) to correct the errors. Familiar, isn't it?
30 months ago: DJ,

"Familiar"... explain..
30 months ago: That claim is the Mormon claim as well as the Jehovah Witnesses.
27 months ago: @ Perfect Horizon. Please look in your wallet, pull out your last $1 bill. Great. Now in capital letters in the comment box under my comment, type the U.S. National Motto! ****

The idea of the American Dream is rooted in the United States Declaration of Independence which proclaims that "all men are created equal" and that they are "endowed by their CREATOR with certain inalienable Rights" including "Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness!


Creator? Whaaatttt?? I dont know about you you, but this GOD or CREATOR sure looking pretty american to me!


**** INCASE PH DOESNT RETURN.


Us National Motto! IN GOD WE TRUST.


NEVER MET AN AMERICAN THAT NEVER LIKED MONEY!! NOT TO MENTION CASH.

( but its all fiction)
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
27 months ago: Hate to break it to you...but the Declaration of Independence is not a governing document.
27 months ago: Thomas Jefferson was an agnostic. A deist at best. He may have believed in a supreme creator or a "god" but not the God that you are probably referring to.

The "US National Motto" as well as the phrase, "under God" weren't added to currency and the pledge of allegiance until the 1950s during the McCarthy era. It was a response in opposition to communism, which for some reason was regarded as a euphemism for "godless."
27 months ago: Now that's just 'Perfect' Horizon... does precedent count?

"Many people seem to think that the Declaration of Independence is NOT a Governing Document. Rather than listen to somebody telling you that the Declaration of Independence is not a Governing Document, let's figure it out for ourselves..."
http://forums.hannity.com/showthread.php...
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
27 months ago: "hannity.com"

I have disregarded this comment entirely. Cite a source outside of FauxNews and then we can talk.

In the mean time I will personally give you 1 million dollars if you can find any of the following words in the Constitution of the United States of America:
God, Jesus, Christian, Christianity
27 months ago: Perfect point,

but, the Declaration of Independence is just as much a Governing Document as the Constitution... apparently.
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
27 months ago: The Constitution of the United States of America is a governing document. The Declaration is not and has never been. It simply was a statement of succession. The Constitution was written with the ideals of the Declaration in mind, HOWEVER...the framers were incredibly careful to remove all of the religious rhetoric from the actual governing document (Look up a few of the first editions of the Constitution and the changes to the terms that were used to ensure that it was a secular document).
27 months ago: PH,

Help me understand, if the US does not honor it's own constitution, then is it still a governing authority? Like Egypt, if the people don't honor their President as they have ousted him, does he still govern? IN like fashion many such judgments and subsequent decisions of the US Government, over certain issues, don't honor the Constitution...
and like a useless monarchy, it stands to reveal only how far they have come or fallen.
27 months ago: @ Dwayne Johnson

How do you figure Mormonism and Jehovah Witnesses are not Christian? What is this "base" of Christianity from which they spin? Protestantism? I notice you did not include Catholicism in the list of spin off religions. Years ago Catholicism was considered by many to not be Christian either. Now it is widely accepted. My understanding of the requirements to be considered Christian was to believe that Jesus Christ was/is the son of God. What basic doctrines are you referring to? I was under the impression that recognizing Jesus Christ as a divine being was the ONLY doctrine of Christianity.
27 months ago: Mormonism believes that their Jesus is Satan's brother... not biblical.
Jehovah Witnesses believe that their Jesus is Michael the Arch-Angel... not biblical.
Catholicism believes that salvation is through only their church... and that they must pray through Mary as a mediator... not biblical.... the Bible states that Jesus is the only mediator between God and man.

I can see how God uses all faiths, even those that are not true, to cause people to question and find answers. This doesn't mean all roads lead to Heaven, rather that God can meet anyone on any road and touch them with love and truth. Many who attend a particular church or another may not believe all the tenants of those faiths, and may simply attend for other reasons such as companionship.... and family unity... yet God seeks to save all, if only we are willing.

As for Christianity we follow the true Christ, even Jesus said...

"For many will come in my name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and they will lead many astray." Matthew 24:5
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL
27 months ago: Even those that are untrue? Seriously?

I would like you to prove to me, using a source that is NOT the Bible that you are right and other people are wrong...
27 months ago: Perfect,

That's like asking me to prove something is unconstitutional without using the constitution. In matters of the Christian faith, we only have the Bible.
sunny2
sunny2
25 months ago: Truth ....what about this quote from St. Augustine.
"And in St. Augustine [in the seventh letter to Marcellinus] we read: 'If anyone shall set the authority of Holy Writ against clear and manifest reason, he who does this knows not what he has undertaken; for he opposes to the truth not the meaning of the Bible, which is beyond his comprehension, but rather his own interpretation; not what is in the Bible, but what he has found in himself and imagines to be there'"[12] Sunny
27 months ago: So you can be counted Christian so long as you aren't Catholic, Mormon, or a Jehovah Witness? If it can't be found in Bible scripture than the whole church is not Christian, even though they believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God?

How can you regard the Bible as the only source of doctrine when, clearly, there are many things in the Bible that are not clear, may be disputed, or are way out of date.

We all choose our traditions. Even "Christianity"; though I'm still not really sure what you mean by that.
27 months ago: SP,

First a Christian is a devout follower of Jesus Christ, as described in the Bible... as such going to one church or the other does not prevent you from doing that, or guarantee that you do. Being baptized in a church as well does not make a difference if we have no personal faith in Christ. As to believing there is a God...

"You say you have faith, for you believe that there is one God. Good for you! Even the demons believe this, and they tremble in terror." James 2:19

What if I believed that you were god... would believing that make it so? Absolutely not.... neither does believing that Jesus is Satan's bro, or an Arch Angel. So, when describing "Christianity" ...it is a belief in a literal historical person, who claimed to be God; and by the power of His life, death and resurrection proved it. It is not about denominational claims... anyone is free to believe their churches teachings or the Bible... when one accepts Jesus as the Way, Truth, and Life... then regardless of the church one attends makes no difference.

If I am a child of the founder of "Wendy's" restaurants ...going into McDonald's doesn't change my inheritance anymore than if I wasn't the founders child, make me an heir if I started a Wendy's franchise. When we are adopted into the family of God, where we came from is of little importance when compared to our destiny.

The sole source of Christian teachings is and has always been the Bible... the sole source of our new life, is and has always been Christ in us ...the Holy Spirit. Whether they be "out-of-date" or up-to-date, the foundation of our faith is in the Bible... other religions use other books or experiences.

Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. John 14:6
27 months ago: It's not our job to say who is Christian or who is not. It's our job to follow Him.

John 21:20-22

So Peter seeing him said to Jesus, "Lord, and what about this man?" Jesus said to him, "If I want him to remain until I come, what is that to you? YOU follow Me!"

27 months ago: Huey,

I agree that we are not to judge motives or intentions... but we do have an obligation to determine and defend the true gospel, otherwise we would have Christians following lies in the guise of a truth. As under-shepherds of the flock, we need to identify what is a "sheep" and what is a "wolf" ...in sheep's clothing.

In a letter Paul had to the Galatians this is clearly addressed; here the people were being led astray with a different "gospel" and Paul said:

"I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God's curse! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God's curse!
Am I now trying to win the approval of human beings, or of God? Or am I trying to please people? If I were still trying to please people, I would not be a servant of Christ."
Galatians 1:6-10
Perfect Horizon
Perfect Horizon
Chicago, IL